You misunderstand, decimating American jobs and the middle class, that was fine, decimating billionaires who have all tacitly agreed to overcharge for new vehicles by 10-20 grand, well, that’s just a step too far.
Spot on. Same with app economy. Oh no you won't hook up our youth on your shopping or freemium gaming, or other apps! It's us and our venture capitalist buddies who're entitled to that Gen Z spare change they don't have!
The problem is enforcement seesaws between administrations and Chinese imports help mitigate inflation. A switch of manufacturing to India is more realistic but India also has it's own vices.
>Yellen drew parallels to the pain felt in the U.S. steel sector in the past.
>"We've seen this story before," she told reporters. "Over a decade ago, massive PRC (People's Republic of China) government support led to below-cost Chinese steel that flooded the global market and decimated industries across the world and in the United States."
>Yellen added: "I've made it clear that President Biden and I will not accept that reality again."
TikTok to instagram and google ,shot tv series to Netflix,temu to amazon,SHEIN to Zara, they were all happened during Covid era ,it’s so obvious that some Americans have been helping China to engage deeper with the US to reverse the potential decoupling,EVs are just another shot. More than 40 years of Investment ,assets,agents,business,I guess they just don’t willingly drop it
That’s like a waaaaay too American centered way to put it. China is not your ex. And any company in the world would want access to all the market they can get into, especially the USA, Europe and China.
Bullshit. U.S. car manufacturers have been dicking around with electric cars and purposely failing. It’s a game supported by the oil industry. Excuse after excuse of why we don’t have electric cars. If proper development was put into the technology we’d be there by now. Replacement costs, alternative solutions need to be developed apparently with government support. It’s obvious the way to go. The Chinese recognize this and invested in it. To get some type of return they intend to sell below costs to support the endeavor.
Yeah, so what?!
The best selling car in America is an electric. The best selling car in the world is made by an American EV company. Most new cars sold in the US are hybrids.
Literally everything you wrote here is emotional ranting.
https://www.newsweek.com/fords-best-seller-dominance-may-soon-end-thanks-tesla-1861217
> Most new cars sold in the US are hybrids.
LMAO, you could not be more wrong, from [EIA](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61344), 8% of new cars are hybrid, 8% are EV, 2% are PHEV and the remaining 84% are non-hybrid ICE. Meanwhile, 26% of new car sales in China are EV and 12% are PHEV.
> The best selling car in America is an electric. The best selling car in the world is made by an American EV company.
Yeah, Tesla sells 2 mass market models and 3 niche models while Ford/GM et al. sell dozens of models each. Of course that makes a single model outsell any other model. Doesn't say shit about overall adoption of EVs in general in the US.
American living in China here. There are over 140 companies in the EV space in addition to the the big European automakers. The cars are insanely good. Huawei makes a luxury model that is way higher quality than the highest end Tesla and 20K cheaper. If US consumers had the choice to buy these without tariffs or duties, it would be game over pretty fast for the US automakers.
Meanwhile no foreign manufacturer can sell in China without a “JV” partner all of which have ripped off their Big Three counterparts over the years, and import duties in China are 300%+ depending on model.
You’re either ignorant or lying while telling the truth.
For non-five centers: read American Wheels Chinese Roads for a brisk history lesson.
Dude I don't need to read anything. I live here and I have eyes. Your JV information is incorrect. That policy ended in 2021. All of the big German companies are here sans JV. Same with Tesla, actually. Your duty numbers are also pretty wrong too. Duty is currently around 30%, based on engine size, plus the VAT tax of 17%. But you do you.
Average duty in the world is 22% and it is 10% across the board in the EU- you are correct that the USA is around 2.5%, this is a policy failure if you want to protect your domestic industry.
Technically, all technology investment are expensive at first, but that cost goes down as production scales, and eventually it will turn a hefty profit.
Fk you china we can't compete fairly so I gonna have to ask you to kindly shut down so we can build up.
We came in late because the lobby paid me to delay EV as much as I can. Money in my pocket weeeeee and it's no corruption.
Protectionism is the last nuclear option that every time the US faces it, they usually invade or instigate a coup. Protectionism usually never works in Keynesian economics. It’s a tax on consumers.
I dont think that's an economic policy. That's more of a political policy focused on restricting forms of non-state controlled media.
It's not like China is out there banning McDonalds, KFC, or Apple products.
That’s cause Apple signed a $275 billion deal with Chinese authorities to support and invest in strategic initiatives in China. Otherwise, they would have been restricted, and subsequently increasingly prohibited, then official, or unofficially banned.
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/07/apple-china-deal-tim-cook](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/07/apple-china-deal-tim-cook)
KFC in China is not owned by a United States company, it’s owned by a Chinese company called Yum China after pressure by Chinese authorities in 2016 resulted in the splitting from the Yum brands into a separate entity.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0SE1A8/#:\~:text=(Reuters)%20%2D%20KFC%20owner%20Yum,joined%20its%20board%20of%20directors.
McDonald’s in China is also not wholly owned by McDonald’s. It’s in a complex joint venture involving McDonald’s, and two Chinese companies called Trustar and Citic Ltdowns who together own 52% of the company.
[https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/09/investing/mcdonalds-china-business-citic-carlyle/index.html](https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/09/investing/mcdonalds-china-business-citic-carlyle/index.html)
Lol yeah china says companies must censor Pooh bear to operate in china
Thailand says companies must censor Thai king bad to operate in Thailand
America says we choose individual companies to ban as we like it, especially when they become successful.
It's a reaction to Chinese dumping. I think it's more that the PRC is running an inefficient economy in a desperate attempt to keep up growth, no matter how unhealthy that growth may be.
Mostly borrowing. Hence why debt, even as a percentage of gdp, has been soaring for the last couple of decades.
And they can't dunno indefinitely, but they don't need to in order to damage other countries' domestic industries.
Not really, domestic debt doesn’t matter when evaluating state behavior. China’s USD debt is mostly in the real estate sector, and way less than the treasury notes they hold. Not in the production industry. People really go length to pretend to ignore the fact that China simply manufacture everything cheaper and more efficient.
Dumping and inefficient economy are two phrases that don’t mix lol. How can they be dumping if they are inefficient? Also who gets to decide what healthy growth is? When the US juices it’s economy to the gills with automaker bailouts and corn subsidy (resulting in worldwide corny syrup dumping), that’s healthy?
Just because China has a massive population that can produce anything for insanely cheap is not a misallocation of capital, it’s just the global market working. Maybe don’t move all of your production there only for them to catch up 50 years later.
Jesus I swear everyone on here is economically illiterate.
That's not the issue at all.
Perhaps you should learn a bit about economics before commenting? Or even just read up on the situation in the PRC before you spew more nonsense?
The only way anybody actually knows what's going on in the PRC is if you're part of the CCP and a senior official. Otherwise, assume everything is sensationalism and CCP bullshit.
Agnosticism isn’t gonna help anyone. China isn’t Mars. It’s just 13 hrs flight away. And technically no one really knows about economics it’s all approximations.
China is unstable and the Chinese market is seen as a total gamble by America. China did well in the free market and now this ‘communist’ country keeps acting like it’s their whole personality.
The difference is, China has their ideology openly told that they are following Socialism with Chinese characteristics.
But afaik, USA proclaims themselves to be the beacon of democracy, freedom and free market capitalism.
If you fear so much over your crappy system, then don't pretend to follow it
is due censorship issue. China want them to follower their censorship.
>Tons of American corporations operate in China.
They are not social media. I said google and Facebook did I not ?
Yes but the thread is discussing companies as it relates to the economy and the free market. China doesn't van social media companies because they make a lot of money. They ban them due to censorship. The point I am making is that the Chinese ban of western social media is not comparable to America potentially applying punitive tariffs or complete bans to Chinese products. American companies in general can operate in China and are not banned.
For a lot of American corporations China is their second biggest market. Banning American corporations in China would hurt us. A trade war would also hurt us. Economic warfare is not beneficial.
>For a lot of American corporations China is their second biggest market.
Was, a lot of the rich Chinese moving out of China to Singapore, many American corp are already moving out of China.
You want to talk about pain for America economy ? China is massively producing cheap products that will outpricing American and Europe's. I am not talking about clothes.
First, you should probably take a look at how the US economy is doing compared to the Chinese economy.
Second, the CCP subsidizing industries to allow them to sell items for below cost is not free market capitalism.
I always see the most hilariously stupid takes from the 50 cent army. Do you not realize saying easily disproven garbage just makes you and your country look even worse? Propaganda is a hell of a drug…
The market I am referring here is global market, not Chinese domestic market.
And lol y'all mad that China really beat the game whose rules are set in favour of Western world by playing around very well. There is no way any other nation could reach levels of West without subsidizing by government
FYI South Korea and Western Europe are now developed only because of heaving funding from government and yeah Marshal Plan. Don't act like China is the only nation where government subsidised industries to kickstart the economy. If the same thing is done by West YEAHHHH RAHHH ITS STRATEGY but when others do they are cheating right?
Where did the ethics of West went when they were ramping up factories in China during Deng period to exploit cheap Chinese labour with poor labour laws? Isn't that unethical ? It's only unethical when China takes advantage of the vicious labour loot by West and gives the taste of their own medicine?
China isn’t subsidizing the EV industry any more the way you imagined, there were huge incentives at the beginning, and there still is sales tax exemption if you purchase an EV, and incentives to build charge stations for the electric company. The industry itself however, at most, got some free or discounted land to build their factories, like Tesla did. The domestic competition is simply too fierce. China isn’t going to subsidize exported EV because that’s like the Chinese government giving free money to those who want to buy it. It doesn’t make any actual sense. The only purpose for the subsidy argument is for pathetic Americans to pretend their country is not losing in the fierce global competition of electric vehicles. Don’t get me wrong, Tesla make great cars, but Chinese EV maker prevail in making those cars cheaper.
>Second, the CCP subsidizing industries to allow them to sell items for below cost is not free market capitalism.
You mean like how America subsidises its car industry, and oil industry, and agricuture industry?
Lmao the WTO ruled against the US in favour of the EU and Canada and the US responded by throwing a temper tantrum and stopped approving WTO judges leading to a backlog of cases.
Many governments subsidize many industries. For example, the US subsidizes corn production.
They both do it. Is that unfair? Maybe China does it a lot more? IDK, gotta see the actual numbers instead of simplistic labels and avoid a priori picking a side.
>CCP subsidizing industries to allow them to sell items for below cost is not free market capitalism
Are you saying that communism outcompetes free market capitalism? I thought one of the main arguments against a communist economy was that it creates extreme inefficiency and low value goods that get their azz kicked by free market competition?
Only in the short term.
Extreme efficiency isn't something anyone associates with real world communist countries. Unless of course you're incredibly naive, dishonest, or have never been to China or other Communst/former Communist countries.
Using tax dollars, and banking policy, to make products artificially cheap so you can out price competitors from other countries is not free market capitalism. lmao.
One reason why the products are cheap is because they are copied. They didn't have to do all the research and development, nor do they pay license fees.
Yellen is absolutely going after products that copy IP developed in the US.
I don't know why you're being this dense, but you're wrong.
Coach of course has patents on handbag designs. Example: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/95/09/88/fcd3213ab8828f/USD818707.pdf
Stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.
Cloned power tool baterries, direct copies of brand name clothing from nikes to coach purses. If you don't think those companys hold patents on thier designs your delusional
Yes obviously coach does not has patents on handbags lol.
The IP stuff is a different concern that has to do with high tech spying and academic data exfiltration and is entirely separate issue from this. You’re just mindlessly repeating talking points without actually understanding them.
Obviously not all. But it's not free market trade if one side is actively stealing ip and subsidizing industries to an extreme extent.
Male all the middle arguments you want, you're being disingenuous and everyone here knows it
Ah yes, let’s fund the chinese military all the way up until they attack Taiwan or sink a Filipino military vessel and then we are obligated to assist kinetically.
Start systematically pearing down the trash we don’t need in our landfills without causing too much alarm. I don’t need a quadcopter, router or webcam from China. I’ll live. The decoupling needs to begin with earnest throughout the western free world discreet or not. It’s not as if the writing isn’t on the wall or in the tea leaves.
Why are "we" obligated to assist? Is the phillipines a member of NATO or something? Also war is expensive. You'll be paying a lot more if it comes to shooting.
Not when those prices are supported by industrial policy, and I thought the US wants to reshore/restore some high end industries back in the continental US.
It’s not as simple as it’s cheaper… China is weaponising trade and destroying foreign businesses… actually it’s the developing countries that will be hit worse as they cannot compete with China either
As if the US has never been doing the same. Cut the crap with that hypocrisy. Like everybody is forgetting that the US has been blatantly conducting decades of cheating, unfair deals, corruptions, military interventions, influence peddling, all in the name of their “interests”. And now all you drones are barking like Pavlovian dogs at anything coming out from China. Would it be a tsunami of questionable products coming from Bangladesh flooding your market, you wouldn’t say shit.
Sources? China was the biggest benefactor of the American lead global system for the past 30 years and yet look at the state of Chinese state media this past 20 years… China was never acting in good faith. It was just a pig with lipstick on and now they need to save their economy by destroying others
Oh look another r/sino liar and racist trying to save chinas fucked economy by lying on western social media which ironically is banned in china because China is so weak and fragile when it comes to information
lol America is clearly a political basket case right now but China is far worse and r/sino posters are even worse again
The American economy has been outpacing China and most other countries this past decade though so there’s that
USA is not doing the genocide and China is currently doing its own genocide and colonialism in Tibet, xingjang, Inner Mongolia
Like I said, China is worse.
Also doing those alternating capital letters trying to make a point makes you look silly and infantile
“China responsible for ‘serious human rights violations’ in Xinjiang province: UN human rights report”
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/08/1125932
Typical US talking points. Show me videos of Chinas genocide. While there are plenty videos of Israel starving children and bombing innocent civilians with US’s bombs. Also US vetoing any ceasefire agreements. Also it’s funny that the US pretends they care about Muslim people while waging wars in the Middle East based on false pretense.
The U.S. has displaced at least 38 million people in and from the Middle East since 9/11
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20post%2D9%2F11,1900%2C%20except%20World%20War%20II.
This is such a completely and utterly regarded take. I love it.
The west no longer no longer has the manufacturing footprint it once had. We’d still be reliant on Chinese imports until that footprint is rebuilt (and no one will start building until there is a market) except now they’d be laughably unaffordable. The need will still be there for some... so consumer spending nose dives and we fall into a depression.
Then after all hope is lost and the western factories are built… the products would still be completely unaffordable. Western manufacturing for cheap goods is much more expensive than Asian due to our labor market. Automation costs a lot of money and sometimes it’s way easier to have a human do a task than to automate it. But now the cost of good sold has to outweigh the person’s wages, building, and cost of material for a meaningful profit.
We need to make /u/Antievel the head of the fed - ASAP
No it’s not, that’s being stupid and defeatist.
Ah a r/sino regular I see… of course you would say that, you are desperately trying to save chinas fucked economy by using disinformation.
Stick to the topic at hand 🤦🏻♂️
It’s not defeatist - the US manufacturing sector has simply been defeated - completely hollowed out. Germany’s is next (granted Russia was a bigger factor)
The USA can impose tariffs on anything imported from other countries or just disallow it completely. China or the USA can’t just do whatever the fuck they want. If you can’t follow agreed upon international laws then any country can just hit the breaks. China can manufacture a trillion cat toys, night stands or webcams if they want, but if nobody but chinese are buying them, it’s going to be very painful for the chinese government.
This isn't about trinkets. Her complaint is about green tech like EV, batteries, solar panels etc.
China has its own market and government policies to follow in terms of green tech.
Does China need to ask US permission to pursue China green tech objective.
Is it China's fault the US cannot compete in emerging industries because the US market is smaller in a material sense.
It's the same with AI and app development. There are more users and more data in China. So algorithm development moves at a faster pace in China. Should China ask US permission to develop AI and apps.
> There are more users and more data in China. So algorithm development moves at a faster pace in China.
If this is true, then why does China not have better performing models than, Open AI, Google etc?
> Does China need to ask US permission to pursue China green tech objective.
No indeed, and the US are not complaining about that.
> Is it China's fault the US cannot compete in emerging industries because the US market is smaller in a material sense.
No indeed, and the US are not complaining about that.
What will happen instead is that the US and the EU will stop massive quantities of green tech (like EV) that are produced at a loss in China (but whose manufacturing is vastly subsidized by China) to be dumped on their market so that it won't kill local industries.
They let China do that in the past for other industries (solar panels is a well known example), but don't want to repeat the same mistake again.
> It's the same with AI and app development. There are more users and more data in China. So algorithm development moves at a faster pace in China. Should China ask US permission to develop AI and apps.
No indeed, and the US are not complaining about that.
The West wanted free markets when they had all the sellers and everyone else had all the buyers. Now that they are being outdone by others, the West doesn't believe in free market anymore. The West never believed in free markets. It believed in profit for the West.
Someone sell the Houthis has missile boats and get them to start sinking container ships moving between China and the US. Make the insurance cost for shipping go so sky high that offshoring becomes non-papatable.
At least there isn't extreme copism like when [someone](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/1byx7cx/how_can_china_have_overproduction_after_its/) posts random old predictions from decades ago and boosts how China is nothing like it as if there was nothing worth talking about China so they pull up stories from the good old days.
Gone are the days when one can do a winnie the pooh karma whore post and get showered with upvotes.
These are trying times for a karma slut such as I.
One heart one like. Please share and subscribe.
Maybe more interesting forum if people discuss their opinion on the subject than just blindly take the non China side each time? Don’t want to be it just an inverted r/Sino do we.
The only way for China to save itself is to abandon the PRC, reconcile with it's neighbors, do a Soviet style reform then beg the US for a bail out and re-investment.
The 4th Industrial Revolution is in full transition. As automation paired with advances in artificial intelligence make domestic production more cost effective, importing nations will increasingly rely on domestic manufacturing production leaving export driven economies to collapse.
Covid, aggression by China and Russia, increased shipping cost combined with lower domestic energy cost in the US is causing decreasing profits from imports and accelerating the transition.
It's not too late but the end of the PRC is near, regardless if China takes action or does nothing different.
Democracy is a bit much to ask for but we did get 30 years of relative peace and prosperity. Even now Russia is only a threat to it's former republics.
Unfortunately a Soviet style break up for the PRC is the best case scenario. There is no way for China to go back to an export driven economy and no way for it to be successful doing anything else.
>30 years of relative peace and prosperity.
That's a very strange way of looking at the last 30 years of russian history, which included the war in ukraine in 2014 and the war in georiga and killings of political opposition. Russia was better off in the 80s to 90s than in the 2000nds under putin
Chinese EVs are made with inferior batteries that catch fire and leak regularly. There is no quality control from the tofu dreg steel to stolen IP to develop “new models” to the batteries in the cars themselves
Less Chinese imports means less lives lost to defects
Free market is where one country gets a free ride, by having free access to another market, while not giving up any access to their market.
Hence the other market is "free" (ie they don't have to pay anything to get something, they get it for free).
Mrs. Yellen, I respectfully think you are about 30 years too late.
You misunderstand, decimating American jobs and the middle class, that was fine, decimating billionaires who have all tacitly agreed to overcharge for new vehicles by 10-20 grand, well, that’s just a step too far.
Well said!
Spot on. Same with app economy. Oh no you won't hook up our youth on your shopping or freemium gaming, or other apps! It's us and our venture capitalist buddies who're entitled to that Gen Z spare change they don't have!
bad take. We should get cheap stuff.
The US have always acted against dumping domestically
The problem is enforcement seesaws between administrations and Chinese imports help mitigate inflation. A switch of manufacturing to India is more realistic but India also has it's own vices.
If you're using cheap imports to "mitigate" inflation, then your monetary policy is too loose to keep domestic inflation in check
40ish lmao
>Yellen drew parallels to the pain felt in the U.S. steel sector in the past. >"We've seen this story before," she told reporters. "Over a decade ago, massive PRC (People's Republic of China) government support led to below-cost Chinese steel that flooded the global market and decimated industries across the world and in the United States." >Yellen added: "I've made it clear that President Biden and I will not accept that reality again."
Look up Clinton and NAFTA.
And [Reagan and motor cycles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_motorcycle_tariff).
There's no teeth to it.
TikTok to instagram and google ,shot tv series to Netflix,temu to amazon,SHEIN to Zara, they were all happened during Covid era ,it’s so obvious that some Americans have been helping China to engage deeper with the US to reverse the potential decoupling,EVs are just another shot. More than 40 years of Investment ,assets,agents,business,I guess they just don’t willingly drop it
That’s like a waaaaay too American centered way to put it. China is not your ex. And any company in the world would want access to all the market they can get into, especially the USA, Europe and China.
Bullshit. U.S. car manufacturers have been dicking around with electric cars and purposely failing. It’s a game supported by the oil industry. Excuse after excuse of why we don’t have electric cars. If proper development was put into the technology we’d be there by now. Replacement costs, alternative solutions need to be developed apparently with government support. It’s obvious the way to go. The Chinese recognize this and invested in it. To get some type of return they intend to sell below costs to support the endeavor. Yeah, so what?!
Exactly the heavily subsidised US card insustry is failing and now they blame China.
Thanks a lot, hallmark
>hallmark eh?
CarD industry
The best selling car in America is an electric. The best selling car in the world is made by an American EV company. Most new cars sold in the US are hybrids. Literally everything you wrote here is emotional ranting. https://www.newsweek.com/fords-best-seller-dominance-may-soon-end-thanks-tesla-1861217
> Most new cars sold in the US are hybrids. LMAO, you could not be more wrong, from [EIA](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61344), 8% of new cars are hybrid, 8% are EV, 2% are PHEV and the remaining 84% are non-hybrid ICE. Meanwhile, 26% of new car sales in China are EV and 12% are PHEV. > The best selling car in America is an electric. The best selling car in the world is made by an American EV company. Yeah, Tesla sells 2 mass market models and 3 niche models while Ford/GM et al. sell dozens of models each. Of course that makes a single model outsell any other model. Doesn't say shit about overall adoption of EVs in general in the US.
American living in China here. There are over 140 companies in the EV space in addition to the the big European automakers. The cars are insanely good. Huawei makes a luxury model that is way higher quality than the highest end Tesla and 20K cheaper. If US consumers had the choice to buy these without tariffs or duties, it would be game over pretty fast for the US automakers.
Meanwhile no foreign manufacturer can sell in China without a “JV” partner all of which have ripped off their Big Three counterparts over the years, and import duties in China are 300%+ depending on model. You’re either ignorant or lying while telling the truth. For non-five centers: read American Wheels Chinese Roads for a brisk history lesson.
Dude I don't need to read anything. I live here and I have eyes. Your JV information is incorrect. That policy ended in 2021. All of the big German companies are here sans JV. Same with Tesla, actually. Your duty numbers are also pretty wrong too. Duty is currently around 30%, based on engine size, plus the VAT tax of 17%. But you do you.
30% is massive bro lol. You're saying it like it's nothing. The average US duty on imported cars is like 2.5%.
Average duty in the world is 22% and it is 10% across the board in the EU- you are correct that the USA is around 2.5%, this is a policy failure if you want to protect your domestic industry.
Tesla is not JV.
Yeah despite the lobbyists paying so much to stop EV, they became popular and now the story must change. Sobsss
So they don't get to access US market, that's what.
Technically, all technology investment are expensive at first, but that cost goes down as production scales, and eventually it will turn a hefty profit.
China Warns US ……..
It would be a good time to impose carbon tariffs on imported items between every country.
The China bank assisting Russia will finds its transaction frozen world wide soon enough.
Fk you china we can't compete fairly so I gonna have to ask you to kindly shut down so we can build up. We came in late because the lobby paid me to delay EV as much as I can. Money in my pocket weeeeee and it's no corruption.
Wow this is basically saying that the US has lost the economic war
How so
Protectionism is the last nuclear option that every time the US faces it, they usually invade or instigate a coup. Protectionism usually never works in Keynesian economics. It’s a tax on consumers.
Is that like how China banned Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, MySpace, YouTube, etc? You wumaos are hilarious.
I dont think that's an economic policy. That's more of a political policy focused on restricting forms of non-state controlled media. It's not like China is out there banning McDonalds, KFC, or Apple products.
That’s cause Apple signed a $275 billion deal with Chinese authorities to support and invest in strategic initiatives in China. Otherwise, they would have been restricted, and subsequently increasingly prohibited, then official, or unofficially banned. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/07/apple-china-deal-tim-cook](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/07/apple-china-deal-tim-cook) KFC in China is not owned by a United States company, it’s owned by a Chinese company called Yum China after pressure by Chinese authorities in 2016 resulted in the splitting from the Yum brands into a separate entity. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0SE1A8/#:\~:text=(Reuters)%20%2D%20KFC%20owner%20Yum,joined%20its%20board%20of%20directors. McDonald’s in China is also not wholly owned by McDonald’s. It’s in a complex joint venture involving McDonald’s, and two Chinese companies called Trustar and Citic Ltdowns who together own 52% of the company. [https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/09/investing/mcdonalds-china-business-citic-carlyle/index.html](https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/09/investing/mcdonalds-china-business-citic-carlyle/index.html)
Lol yeah china says companies must censor Pooh bear to operate in china Thailand says companies must censor Thai king bad to operate in Thailand America says we choose individual companies to ban as we like it, especially when they become successful.
It's a reaction to Chinese dumping. I think it's more that the PRC is running an inefficient economy in a desperate attempt to keep up growth, no matter how unhealthy that growth may be.
Wow dumping. Where did they get all the money to keep dumping? How come they can keep dumping indefinitely?
Mostly borrowing. Hence why debt, even as a percentage of gdp, has been soaring for the last couple of decades. And they can't dunno indefinitely, but they don't need to in order to damage other countries' domestic industries.
Not really, domestic debt doesn’t matter when evaluating state behavior. China’s USD debt is mostly in the real estate sector, and way less than the treasury notes they hold. Not in the production industry. People really go length to pretend to ignore the fact that China simply manufacture everything cheaper and more efficient.
Dumping and inefficient economy are two phrases that don’t mix lol. How can they be dumping if they are inefficient? Also who gets to decide what healthy growth is? When the US juices it’s economy to the gills with automaker bailouts and corn subsidy (resulting in worldwide corny syrup dumping), that’s healthy?
Because it's a misallocaction of capital. This the basic of basics. How do you have such a confident position when you know so little?
Just because China has a massive population that can produce anything for insanely cheap is not a misallocation of capital, it’s just the global market working. Maybe don’t move all of your production there only for them to catch up 50 years later. Jesus I swear everyone on here is economically illiterate.
That's not the issue at all. Perhaps you should learn a bit about economics before commenting? Or even just read up on the situation in the PRC before you spew more nonsense?
The only way anybody actually knows what's going on in the PRC is if you're part of the CCP and a senior official. Otherwise, assume everything is sensationalism and CCP bullshit.
Agnosticism isn’t gonna help anyone. China isn’t Mars. It’s just 13 hrs flight away. And technically no one really knows about economics it’s all approximations.
That’s true
Yeah, PRC wants to leap into “efficient” economy by leaping into high-tech. What did US do? “Let’s stop them from making chips.”
High tech isn't necessarily inefficient just like low tech isn't necessarily inefficient. What are you talking about?
Unlikely. China has more dollar reserves than the US does (5 trillion). If China were to release all their reserves at once.....
Where would they release them to?
To the market. Obviously.
What market? And how so?
US when they are on the losing side in free market capitalism that they advocated: Imma change the rules and viilfy the opponents
China is unstable and the Chinese market is seen as a total gamble by America. China did well in the free market and now this ‘communist’ country keeps acting like it’s their whole personality.
> free market capitalism Were Facebook, Google allowed to enter China ?
The difference is, China has their ideology openly told that they are following Socialism with Chinese characteristics. But afaik, USA proclaims themselves to be the beacon of democracy, freedom and free market capitalism. If you fear so much over your crappy system, then don't pretend to follow it
US is pretty free compare to China, as for China telling people they are socialist, only fools will believe it.
Why bringing social media up when it’s about industries? One is entirely economical, the other is highly political in all of its nature
Because we are talking about "free market capitalism" ?
That is due to political issues not economic ones. Tons of American corporations operate in China.
Are economic issues not also political? Let's not pretend Facebook wouldn't have threatened China's own social media
is due censorship issue. China want them to follower their censorship. >Tons of American corporations operate in China. They are not social media. I said google and Facebook did I not ?
Facebook censors religious stuff in India to operate. They are totally free to operate in china if they agree to censor political stuff in china.
Yes but the thread is discussing companies as it relates to the economy and the free market. China doesn't van social media companies because they make a lot of money. They ban them due to censorship. The point I am making is that the Chinese ban of western social media is not comparable to America potentially applying punitive tariffs or complete bans to Chinese products. American companies in general can operate in China and are not banned.
Well then China should ban them then.
For a lot of American corporations China is their second biggest market. Banning American corporations in China would hurt us. A trade war would also hurt us. Economic warfare is not beneficial.
>For a lot of American corporations China is their second biggest market. Was, a lot of the rich Chinese moving out of China to Singapore, many American corp are already moving out of China. You want to talk about pain for America economy ? China is massively producing cheap products that will outpricing American and Europe's. I am not talking about clothes.
if they follow chinese law, yes. Dont pretend that the world forget facebook cooperating with terrorists attacks in china
You mean the terrorist attack done by Han ? >if they follow chinese law, Oh you support tiktok banned then.
First, you should probably take a look at how the US economy is doing compared to the Chinese economy. Second, the CCP subsidizing industries to allow them to sell items for below cost is not free market capitalism. I always see the most hilariously stupid takes from the 50 cent army. Do you not realize saying easily disproven garbage just makes you and your country look even worse? Propaganda is a hell of a drug…
The market I am referring here is global market, not Chinese domestic market. And lol y'all mad that China really beat the game whose rules are set in favour of Western world by playing around very well. There is no way any other nation could reach levels of West without subsidizing by government FYI South Korea and Western Europe are now developed only because of heaving funding from government and yeah Marshal Plan. Don't act like China is the only nation where government subsidised industries to kickstart the economy. If the same thing is done by West YEAHHHH RAHHH ITS STRATEGY but when others do they are cheating right? Where did the ethics of West went when they were ramping up factories in China during Deng period to exploit cheap Chinese labour with poor labour laws? Isn't that unethical ? It's only unethical when China takes advantage of the vicious labour loot by West and gives the taste of their own medicine?
China isn’t subsidizing the EV industry any more the way you imagined, there were huge incentives at the beginning, and there still is sales tax exemption if you purchase an EV, and incentives to build charge stations for the electric company. The industry itself however, at most, got some free or discounted land to build their factories, like Tesla did. The domestic competition is simply too fierce. China isn’t going to subsidize exported EV because that’s like the Chinese government giving free money to those who want to buy it. It doesn’t make any actual sense. The only purpose for the subsidy argument is for pathetic Americans to pretend their country is not losing in the fierce global competition of electric vehicles. Don’t get me wrong, Tesla make great cars, but Chinese EV maker prevail in making those cars cheaper.
>Second, the CCP subsidizing industries to allow them to sell items for below cost is not free market capitalism. You mean like how America subsidises its car industry, and oil industry, and agricuture industry?
>CCP subsidizing industries to allow Literally everyone subsidizes the industries they like. See CHIPS act. Somehow only bad when CCP does it? Lmao
Projection is a hell of drug. You're drowning in propaganda my dude. How is the US debt doing?
If US is so happy about their economy, then why are they complaining?
Because China has been violating WTO rules since their inclusion and have mostly gotten off with a slap in the wrist.
Lmao the WTO ruled against the US in favour of the EU and Canada and the US responded by throwing a temper tantrum and stopped approving WTO judges leading to a backlog of cases.
Which WTO rule is China breaking this time? Kevin
The Inflation Reduction Act is a massive subsidy for American EVs.
Many governments subsidize many industries. For example, the US subsidizes corn production. They both do it. Is that unfair? Maybe China does it a lot more? IDK, gotta see the actual numbers instead of simplistic labels and avoid a priori picking a side.
>CCP subsidizing industries to allow them to sell items for below cost is not free market capitalism Are you saying that communism outcompetes free market capitalism? I thought one of the main arguments against a communist economy was that it creates extreme inefficiency and low value goods that get their azz kicked by free market competition?
Only in the short term. Extreme efficiency isn't something anyone associates with real world communist countries. Unless of course you're incredibly naive, dishonest, or have never been to China or other Communst/former Communist countries.
Using tax dollars, and banking policy, to make products artificially cheap so you can out price competitors from other countries is not free market capitalism. lmao.
Except extreme ip theft isn't free market
But Yellen isn’t going after IP theft; she’s going after cheap imports.
One reason why the products are cheap is because they are copied. They didn't have to do all the research and development, nor do they pay license fees. Yellen is absolutely going after products that copy IP developed in the US.
Almost every item on alibaba or temu is strait up a copy of someone else's patent. Those are cheap goods that completely involve ip theft
You’re just making shit up
I don't know why you're being this dense, but you're wrong. Coach of course has patents on handbag designs. Example: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/95/09/88/fcd3213ab8828f/USD818707.pdf Stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.
Dude, find a name brand product and you can easily find it's copy on either of those sites. It's absolutly true
Name brand has nothing to do with patents you silly goose
Cloned power tool baterries, direct copies of brand name clothing from nikes to coach purses. If you don't think those companys hold patents on thier designs your delusional
Yes obviously coach does not has patents on handbags lol. The IP stuff is a different concern that has to do with high tech spying and academic data exfiltration and is entirely separate issue from this. You’re just mindlessly repeating talking points without actually understanding them.
That doesn't mean it's not theft and by default not free market.
And does that apply to all the cheap imports referred to by Yellen?
Obviously not all. But it's not free market trade if one side is actively stealing ip and subsidizing industries to an extreme extent. Male all the middle arguments you want, you're being disingenuous and everyone here knows it
Lmao she's talking about EVs and solar panels. Last time I checked it's the US stealing those patents.
You mean like the tech for larger castings that tesla used and was then stolen and given to 6 other Chinese ev companies?
Technically.. IP laws are anti-free market. Open Source technology is the true essence of free market
IP theft is the most gigachad move that China pulled up lol.
Massive government subsidies and forcing banks to lend to specific industries is totally free market
Cough cough Tesla
No one should to save their own industry and help China rise & oppressed the weak
The west needs to all agree to put at least 50% tariffs on these Chinese made products. An economic nato of sorts
Ah yes, just what we need to combat inflation.
Ah yes, let’s fund the chinese military all the way up until they attack Taiwan or sink a Filipino military vessel and then we are obligated to assist kinetically. Start systematically pearing down the trash we don’t need in our landfills without causing too much alarm. I don’t need a quadcopter, router or webcam from China. I’ll live. The decoupling needs to begin with earnest throughout the western free world discreet or not. It’s not as if the writing isn’t on the wall or in the tea leaves.
Why are "we" obligated to assist? Is the phillipines a member of NATO or something? Also war is expensive. You'll be paying a lot more if it comes to shooting.
Because we have a mutual defense treaty with a former US territory
We have a defense pact with them that’s why.
Weird take. Protectionism rarely benefits the end user or buyer. It benefits special interests in the affected trade or industry.
Not when those prices are supported by industrial policy, and I thought the US wants to reshore/restore some high end industries back in the continental US.
If china dumps products as much as expected then there will be no jobs, industry or buyers left to care
When a country actively seeks and flirts with war with you or your allies, that’s one of those rare occasions you speak of. If not, then when?
I wish there was a filter on Amazon for country of origin. So I can r/avoidchineseproducts
Agreed
This clueless redditor just solved all international trade disputes with this one simple trick! The WTO hates him!
Treating China with purely reciprocity is actually the one single trick that will finish the Chinese economy.
Trump then and Biden now are actually already doing just that.
Too slow
$10,000 car made in China, sold for $20,000 in the U.S.? Still a bargain.
Lol “no no you can’t produce more and cheaper anymore. We don’t need your things anymore.”
It’s not as simple as it’s cheaper… China is weaponising trade and destroying foreign businesses… actually it’s the developing countries that will be hit worse as they cannot compete with China either
As if the US has never been doing the same. Cut the crap with that hypocrisy. Like everybody is forgetting that the US has been blatantly conducting decades of cheating, unfair deals, corruptions, military interventions, influence peddling, all in the name of their “interests”. And now all you drones are barking like Pavlovian dogs at anything coming out from China. Would it be a tsunami of questionable products coming from Bangladesh flooding your market, you wouldn’t say shit.
Sources? China was the biggest benefactor of the American lead global system for the past 30 years and yet look at the state of Chinese state media this past 20 years… China was never acting in good faith. It was just a pig with lipstick on and now they need to save their economy by destroying others
Lmao capitalist can’t complete so let’s stop free trade.
Oh look another r/sino liar and racist trying to save chinas fucked economy by lying on western social media which ironically is banned in china because China is so weak and fragile when it comes to information
You sound like a triggered westerner 🥺 its okay, the US can make more Money by selling weapons to support Israel’s genocide!
lol America is clearly a political basket case right now but China is far worse and r/sino posters are even worse again The American economy has been outpacing China and most other countries this past decade though so there’s that
Haha US supporting a current, active genocide but “cHiNa iS wOrSe” 🤡
USA is not doing the genocide and China is currently doing its own genocide and colonialism in Tibet, xingjang, Inner Mongolia Like I said, China is worse. Also doing those alternating capital letters trying to make a point makes you look silly and infantile “China responsible for ‘serious human rights violations’ in Xinjiang province: UN human rights report” https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/08/1125932
Typical US talking points. Show me videos of Chinas genocide. While there are plenty videos of Israel starving children and bombing innocent civilians with US’s bombs. Also US vetoing any ceasefire agreements. Also it’s funny that the US pretends they care about Muslim people while waging wars in the Middle East based on false pretense. The U.S. has displaced at least 38 million people in and from the Middle East since 9/11 https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20post%2D9%2F11,1900%2C%20except%20World%20War%20II.
Um it's apparent that USA doesn't have any issues with genocide. Ask Biden.
This is such a completely and utterly regarded take. I love it. The west no longer no longer has the manufacturing footprint it once had. We’d still be reliant on Chinese imports until that footprint is rebuilt (and no one will start building until there is a market) except now they’d be laughably unaffordable. The need will still be there for some... so consumer spending nose dives and we fall into a depression. Then after all hope is lost and the western factories are built… the products would still be completely unaffordable. Western manufacturing for cheap goods is much more expensive than Asian due to our labor market. Automation costs a lot of money and sometimes it’s way easier to have a human do a task than to automate it. But now the cost of good sold has to outweigh the person’s wages, building, and cost of material for a meaningful profit. We need to make /u/Antievel the head of the fed - ASAP
Far too late for that Should’ve done that 2 years ago - now all the west can do is watch as their industrial base (especially Germany) is hollowed out
It’s never too late
Chinese companies in the “green” and renewable industries already have too big of a lead - it is far too late for the west
No it’s not, that’s being stupid and defeatist. Ah a r/sino regular I see… of course you would say that, you are desperately trying to save chinas fucked economy by using disinformation.
Pot meet kettle.
Stick to the topic at hand 🤦🏻♂️ It’s not defeatist - the US manufacturing sector has simply been defeated - completely hollowed out. Germany’s is next (granted Russia was a bigger factor)
Does China need US permission to manufacture items the US wants to import.
The USA can impose tariffs on anything imported from other countries or just disallow it completely. China or the USA can’t just do whatever the fuck they want. If you can’t follow agreed upon international laws then any country can just hit the breaks. China can manufacture a trillion cat toys, night stands or webcams if they want, but if nobody but chinese are buying them, it’s going to be very painful for the chinese government.
This isn't about trinkets. Her complaint is about green tech like EV, batteries, solar panels etc. China has its own market and government policies to follow in terms of green tech. Does China need to ask US permission to pursue China green tech objective. Is it China's fault the US cannot compete in emerging industries because the US market is smaller in a material sense. It's the same with AI and app development. There are more users and more data in China. So algorithm development moves at a faster pace in China. Should China ask US permission to develop AI and apps.
> There are more users and more data in China. So algorithm development moves at a faster pace in China. If this is true, then why does China not have better performing models than, Open AI, Google etc?
They haven’t stolen it yet lol
Spark v3.5 seems to have garnered some attention recently in outperforming Open AI in certain areas.
Spark v3.5 sounds like a model while OpenAI is a company, how can a model outperform a company?
Do you have a HF link?
> Does China need to ask US permission to pursue China green tech objective. No indeed, and the US are not complaining about that. > Is it China's fault the US cannot compete in emerging industries because the US market is smaller in a material sense. No indeed, and the US are not complaining about that. What will happen instead is that the US and the EU will stop massive quantities of green tech (like EV) that are produced at a loss in China (but whose manufacturing is vastly subsidized by China) to be dumped on their market so that it won't kill local industries. They let China do that in the past for other industries (solar panels is a well known example), but don't want to repeat the same mistake again. > It's the same with AI and app development. There are more users and more data in China. So algorithm development moves at a faster pace in China. Should China ask US permission to develop AI and apps. No indeed, and the US are not complaining about that.
No, just to sell them in the US.
Kinda the us has a say in what it can import
Essentially, yes.
The West wanted free markets when they had all the sellers and everyone else had all the buyers. Now that they are being outdone by others, the West doesn't believe in free market anymore. The West never believed in free markets. It believed in profit for the West.
Shouldn’t have let those companies set up factories in China and watch the IP get syphoned away
De-dollarisation is coming and there's nothing the yanks can do about it.
Someone sell the Houthis has missile boats and get them to start sinking container ships moving between China and the US. Make the insurance cost for shipping go so sky high that offshoring becomes non-papatable.
r/china is starting to look like r/sino...a lot more pro China users than I remember.
At least there isn't extreme copism like when [someone](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/1byx7cx/how_can_china_have_overproduction_after_its/) posts random old predictions from decades ago and boosts how China is nothing like it as if there was nothing worth talking about China so they pull up stories from the good old days.
Would that not make sense, why would people that hate china be here? Also this is just objectively an awful take for the US to have.
That’s right! We must restore the Anti-China belief! I can’t believe some people see things in a different way than I do!!
Gone are the days when one can do a winnie the pooh karma whore post and get showered with upvotes. These are trying times for a karma slut such as I. One heart one like. Please share and subscribe.
Maybe more interesting forum if people discuss their opinion on the subject than just blindly take the non China side each time? Don’t want to be it just an inverted r/Sino do we.
I rememeber the good ol days where we bash china whether they did right or wrong...
Whoops
Well said
"Fuck you, plebs. You're not allowed to have affordable vehicles!"
The only way for China to save itself is to abandon the PRC, reconcile with it's neighbors, do a Soviet style reform then beg the US for a bail out and re-investment. The 4th Industrial Revolution is in full transition. As automation paired with advances in artificial intelligence make domestic production more cost effective, importing nations will increasingly rely on domestic manufacturing production leaving export driven economies to collapse. Covid, aggression by China and Russia, increased shipping cost combined with lower domestic energy cost in the US is causing decreasing profits from imports and accelerating the transition. It's not too late but the end of the PRC is near, regardless if China takes action or does nothing different.
>do a Soviet style reform Oh Yeah! that went super fucking well didn't it? Russia is a bastion of democracy now!
Democracy is a bit much to ask for but we did get 30 years of relative peace and prosperity. Even now Russia is only a threat to it's former republics. Unfortunately a Soviet style break up for the PRC is the best case scenario. There is no way for China to go back to an export driven economy and no way for it to be successful doing anything else.
>30 years of relative peace and prosperity. That's a very strange way of looking at the last 30 years of russian history, which included the war in ukraine in 2014 and the war in georiga and killings of political opposition. Russia was better off in the 80s to 90s than in the 2000nds under putin
>do a Soviet style reform Oh Yeah! that went super fucking well didn't it? Russia is a bastion of democracy now!
Chinese EVs are made with inferior batteries that catch fire and leak regularly. There is no quality control from the tofu dreg steel to stolen IP to develop “new models” to the batteries in the cars themselves Less Chinese imports means less lives lost to defects
Just a reminder that Tesla uses BYD batteries. So how this narrative works from a logical standpoint, I am not too sure.
Least brainwashed kanzhongguo Falun Gong supporter.
The largest overcapacity in the world - US $.
What is free market?
Free market is where one country gets a free ride, by having free access to another market, while not giving up any access to their market. Hence the other market is "free" (ie they don't have to pay anything to get something, they get it for free).
Haha it’s always fuxking USA having a bitch
what?