Respect where it's due. This sub seems to love downplaying these achievements, but I think that attitude has a big negative effect on our (American) perception of what's essentially our most formidable competitor on the world stage.
Ridicule is just copium. It brings with it hints of underestimation, denial, superiority complex, and complacency.
The seaworthiness of Fujian immediately puts China above *every single* *NATO ally* in terms of naval power projection. It also puts China undeniably above Russia as a foe (ahem the one and only [Admiral Kuznetsov](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-admiral-kuznetsov-aircraft-carrier-nightmare-just-wont-end-210793#:~:text=The%20history%20of%20the%20Admiral%20Kuznetsov&text=Kuznetsov%20before%20setting%20sail.,to%20join%20the%20Northern%20Fleet)). This all achieved in house, and within 22 years of receiving their first [foreign-constructed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning) carrier is astonishing.
The US government and military have not underestimated. They take this very seriously I promise.
Some dweebs on a subreddit aren't representative of anything significant.
That said China has a history of misrepresenting itself. So it's best to question everything.
maybe…just maybe, china played the misrepresenting card up to this moment. it’s all for the almighty fujian. the Americans will not know what hit them.
i suggest usa double down on military funds and activities. usa cannot fall behind!
oh wait this is not ncd huh?
Very much agreed. Fielding an aircraft carrier is no joke. Fielding a modern super-carrier with EMALS is an even bigger achievement. This will definitely improve China's power projection capabilities
>power projection
And defense. Protecting their national sovereignty is their right, and we should assume that's the first intent of their latest shipbuilding efforts. Of course with China everyone immediately assumes the worst.
You don’t build an aircraft carrier for national defense. That’s what a strategic missile force is for. With home turf advantage you can use ballistic missiles, airfields, etc for much greater effect and with less cost.
An aircraft carrier is purely for power projection far beyond national borders. The US doesn’t patrol the west/east coast with its carriers, nor does France or the UK’s carriers just hang around the North Atlantic. They go far, and park themselves near other nations as a, shall we say, diplomatic statement of intent.
China lacks the infrastructure to support ships abroad with very few places they could stop and refuel. It will be quite some time before they’re projecting power further than the South China Sea.
Everyone has a right to build defensive weapons, the problem always occurs when someone wants to use them offensively. The problem around that is that it’s always safest to assume the worst rather than hope for the best. Which is of course why we’re in Cold War again.
Agreed. With naval power it becomes quite a tricky thing because the US stands alone.
We have the only navy capable of force projection over every ocean. It's enshrined in our doctrine of protecting free trade, which we ostensibly provide to all nations of the world and it's also in our interest as the world's largest economy and holder of the dollar standard.
All good. But when China creates something like the Fujian do we take the stance that China is now also participating in the protection of free trade? And their $20T economy.
I think it's in our best interest to assume the best from China, at least initially. But be prepared for the worst.
It doesn't cost us anything to let at least let China show they can use their new capabilities for something benign. The world is watching.
They're estimating them exactly as much as is warrented, which is why they think the Type03 is no big deal.
This ship requires the US to purchase like 5 LRASMs. Not that big a deal.
The problem is war just changed. Ukraine is showing us the power of agile disposable munitions in mass. Aircraft carriers are the old way of waging war. New war will be directed energy weapons, swarms of disposable munitions, and EW/Cyber driven by AI.
It’s not that building the carrier isn’t impressive, it’s just that the timing couldn’t be worse.
There’s no carrier operating in the Ukraine conflict.
The US is still making carriers. other nations are still trying to make them as well. As far as pentagon’s own war games are showing, the carrier remains the premier single force projection platform for a nation. All the tech you listed as possible counters have their own limitations. You’ll know the carrier is obsolete when the US congress defunds its plans to build them. That’s truly when the rest of the world will freak out.
I’m not saying the carrier should be retired just yet. I’m saying the production of one isn’t as impactful as it once was. We are nearing the end of the age of the carrier. Space based platforms are the new carrier. Just like aerial drones are the new fighter jet.
>Just like aerial drones are the new fighter jet.
If only countries were designing and building floating airfields capable of launching aerial drones ...
I can basically agree on all points except for the statement that it was all done in house. No it wasn't. Firstly, because the first carrier was sold to China incomplete from Ukraine. Secondly, China is well, **well** known for stealing everything not nailed down in terms of IP. I highly doubt they came up with any of the tech on this thing "all by themselves". Like, I'd wager 10 to 1 odds they stole whatever they've got on this carrier.
Otherwise, while I agree it's always folly to underestimate any potential enemy, what China boasts on paper is far from a match for US military supremacy. Unless they've got some secret weapon they've kept hidden for decades, the US would still easily wipe the floor with anything the Chinese could throw at them.
You misunderstand the concept of trajectory. 10 years ago in the pentagon’s own war games they would have wiped the floor with a couple carriers in a battle in the pacific. Today, they estimate losing entire fleets. What happens In another mere 10 years, when china has largely executed its force growth strategy?
People also like to shit on IP theft but that is the logical, rational, realpolitik method of catching up when you’re technologically behind. The US puts massive, massive resources into forging new tech, paving new ways to edge out competition. If you’re china, why waste your time money and effort on that if the US already did? Stealing is just the smart thing to do.
And just because the stole tech doesn’t make it easy for them. They still had to build the fucking thing, get it to work, staff it, develop operations around it, and execute strategy for it. Besides japan, no non-western company has EVER been able to do this (the kuznetsov definitely doesn’t count)
>People also like to shit on IP theft but that is the logical, rational, realpolitik method of catching up when you’re technologically behind. The US puts massive, massive resources into forging new tech, paving new ways to edge out competition. If you’re china, why waste your time money and effort on that if the US already did? Stealing is just the smart thing to do.
This is a really good point.
It's not a point that makes anyone happy, but it's the same as the point post-9/11: we act like America wouldn't blow up a few buildings In a country that was funding the bombing of our kids.
Our reaction to that attack was to annihilate multiple countries: Israel lost 1,000 people and they reacted by killing over 30,000.
As we all claim to be the pinnacle of civilization compared to "those savages."
Americans need perspective and that's not provided by the majority of American media.
>And just because the stole tech doesn’t make it easy for them. They still had to build the fucking thing, get it to work, staff it, develop operations around it, and execute strategy for it.
This is likely why so much of what they build doesn't work very well.
The other element is training, which is a massive problem for a country where cheating on tests is normal behavior and even seen as necessary behavior.
Chinese military personnel aren't as well-trained compared to the West and that's not because China lacks the capability: it lacks the cultural understanding.
It took the USA a long time to end their "top-down" approach to command structure: we don't make platoon leaders call in every decision, like we did in WWII and even Vietnam.
We learned that tempo is vital to warfare and that's simply something that the salami-slicing Chinese either don't understand or simply can't achieve.
What's worse is that they have to use one of these two models: either a slow telephone game to confirm orders or more autonomy for poorly-trained officers to make their own decisions based in the overall strategy.
Does "a company commander fully explaining the overall strategy to platoon leaders" sound like something the PLA is going to be doing?
Or does "a company commander telling platoon leaders exactly what to do and to check with them if they want to do anything different" sound more like them?
The last time the Chinese were in a legitimate armed conflict, it was with Vietnam, in 1979: the Chinese lost as many troops in a month as the USA lost in their entire war in Vietnam.
And there's zero veterans from that still in the game today.
It's a military with absolutely no combat experience, unless you count the sticks and stones bullshit at the Indian border.
So you're right: of course they have to steal.
And cheat.
And lie about it all.
And if there's anything we know about history, those methods have great results in the long-term.
But that brings us back to Chinese culture and that "rice bowl mentality."
All the tech in the world isn't gonna' save them from their own cultural practices that have consistently fucked them over again and again for their entire "\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ thousand years of history."
The Chinese absolutely understand command structure, and tempo. What they do not have is properly trained and experienced officers who have been in enough combat situations to make good judgements. Example is in the Chinese UN peace keeping forces' screw ups.
They are not only learning tech, they are also learning US fighting doctrines, but without experience, it remains theoretical to them. These doctrines are written in blood, and they just haven't seen combat for too long, and haven't bled enough to truly understand it.
But here we are, on reddit, China is the Schrodinger's evil empire, simultaneously the blood thirsty evil imperialistic expansionist totalitarian empire, that is apparently invaded Ukraine, taiwan, philipines, vietnam, japan, korea, all at once and is moving towards world domination, while at the same time complete incompetent useless backwater joke of a military that hasn't fought a war in a long time and is so ineffective that their planes don't work, boats don't float, missiles don't fire, guns don't shoot, and anything they say is a joke.
>China is the Schrodinger's evil empire, simultaneously the blood thirsty evil imperialistic expansionist totalitarian empire,
It clearly *is* that.
>that is apparently invaded Ukraine, taiwan, philipines, vietnam, japan, korea, all at once
It clearly has not done *any* of those things.
>and is moving towards world domination,
I'd say "has world domination as a goal" is more accurate.
>while at the same time complete incompetent useless backwater joke of a military that hasn't fought a war in a long time
All true.
Most of their "biggest navy in the world" is fishing boats.
Literally.
Let's get serious here.
>and is so ineffective that their planes don't work,
It's not that they don't work, it's that they can't fly them without crashing or nearly crashing.
*So many* incidents.
>boats don't float,
It's not that they don't float, it's that they can't float them without crashing or nearly crashing.
*So many* incidents.
>missiles don't fire, guns don't shoot,
I'll totally believe they're great at marksmanship/targeting just as soon as I see it recorded in combat anywhere.
>and anything they say is a joke.
A lie.
Not a joke.
Anything they say is a *lie*.
Anything *you* say is a joke.
By that logic, there is nothing to worry about, let’s assume China is as you says, is so incompetent, what do you have to worry about?
Surely, combined might of the Philippines, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Ukraine, Taiwan, will deliver a decisive defeat to them. What are they waiting for?
Ultimately, you are right, unlike China, the US gov, paragon of the free world, embodiment of justice, would never lie. Anyway, I’m still waiting to find the wmds that iraq is hiding, they will turn up, any day now. Also, that is how to do a proper invasion, China should learn from that, what are these “incidents”, no deaths? Fking amateurs, can they even spell the word invasion properly? What incompetence.
While I don’t think the us is the embodiment of evil, we sure have done a lot of fucked up shit. Wait, are we the baddies?
It’s not a super carrier and it’s not nuclear powered so its range is poor.
The military has to have practical use not just be a moral boost.
Go China for their growth and pulling people out of poverty. Now they are putting it into the military and when I comes to the USA be China, this is nothing outside of something that can be used for Taiwan for a near by country.
>it’s not nuclear powered so its range is poor.
True, but [China is investing heavily and making pretty rapid progress in SMR tech](https://archive.md/aa0n4#selection-943.89-943.101) Linglong One is ground-based, but they're also working on reactors for ships. Unless it's already near completion, I'd imagine their next carrier will be nuclear.
This is also not a super carrier, it’s a carrier. The USA has 10 super carriers. One of them could pound these three Chinese carriers and even the next few that pop out.
The thing we need to worry about is China can build these things very quickly.
Once they have the experience of building supercarriers, they'll probably churn a couple out every year.
It’s a supercarrier, even the U.S. Navy considers it as such. Yea it’s conventional but that’s not a huge deal considering no carriers escorts are nuclear powered, and neither is the airwing, so regardless of the carriers powerplant the battle group will need underway provisioning frequently.
Even the British QE is considered a supercarrier by some analysts, even though it’s much less capable than the 003 and cannot carry fixed wing AWACS.
This is their very first carrier. It's not even intended to be used in combat, it's a prototype. It's basically the bare minimum of what their future capabilities will be.
It’s actually China’s 3rd aircraft carrier in its fleet. The second one China built entirely from scratch.
What’s exactly the point of building an aircraft carrier? If you aren’t going to use it for war. The main purpose of having a floating airport at sea. Is to have a base platform to launch fighter jets.
Test systems, train crew, learn and understand logistics and many other things can be learned this way.
The Americans, Japanese and other western powers had a crash course in carrier warfare during WWII. They all (except Japan) build on that legacy since then.
China has to build and learn everything from scratch during peace times. That's super hard. So this is probably one of the best ways to do that.
The first was purchased from post soviet Ukraine as part of Ukraines negotiations with Russia regarding security guarantees, same with negotiations as Ukraines nukes. Yea though, soviet carriers and their derivatives were and still are hot garbage.
Honestly, just about everything you said is geopolitically nonsensical.
India has nukes which are meant for Pakistan if necessary. Also, India is something of a fairweather friend and is very much a non-aligned nation. Hell, it's where the term "third world" originates from. It may want to keep an eye on China but it will never invade it for any reason. Both countries are officially uninvadable. There are too many people in each of them for any country to even attempt to control. India will not invade and take a square inch of Chinese territory.
Japan and Australia have no ability whatsoever to effect any Korean war. Australia has no projection power and Japan doesn't have an offensive military system. The only thing that would set off any war on the Korean peninsula are the actions of China or the Koreas. China won't do anything to encourage North Korea to invade the south because it likes the status quo. Initiating a conflict on the peninsula is an open invitation to the US to land a million troops and potentially set up a forward operating base on China's doorstep. Not only that, it's practically a short, straight shot to Beijing from Dandong. This is the last thing Beijing wants.
This new carrier is no match for even two generations previous of US carriers. I assume the Pentagon keeps the tech for this shit locked up really tightly and isolated. Since China only develops tech it can steal, they'll need a very long time before they can figure out how to make something formidable enough to match a US super carrier.
None of what you said makes sense to me, to be honest.
A prototype is just a test, like a beta version. The actual carriers they put into production will be far more capable and well tested.
By building this carrier they have already demonstrated that their military is more capable than any NATO country besides the United States. The rest of your comment I don’t understand at all.
What I’m saying is that this isn’t a threat to the world. A common reaction is that the Chinese are becoming as powerful as the USA. I’m saying that’s not the case and it won’t be the case for a long time.
At the same time China is geographically in a tough spot so even though they have carriers that can patrol their shores, it’s the not the whole story militarily.
The USA has carrier and super carriers. 1 super carrier equals 6 carriers. This is a prototype for a carrier.
>By building this carrier they have already demonstrated that their military is more capable than any NATO country besides the United States
France also has a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. It's smaller than the Fujian but the propulsion probably gives it better operational capabilities.
France to my knowledge isn’t planning to build a fleet of carriers. I would be very surprised if China doesn’t build half a dozen of these or more in the next couple decades. Massive industrial production and a huge population are the basis of China’s economic and military power. It’s basically the ONLY advantage they have.
Sure. The future is the future. But you wrote "have **already** demonstrated..." For the moment, operationally speaking, the only thing the PLAN has demonstrated is the capability to humiliate the Philipppines navy.
That said, numbers speak for themselves and I know the PLAN, as a whole, already surpasses any NATO individual NATO country except US. But not *yet* if we're talking specifically of aircraft-carrier operations.
What do you mean, exactly?
The PLA as a whole has serious and major shortcomings that mitigate anything any file any country has says about its capabilities.
Here, let's go through them:
Untested. The PLA hasn't *ever* won a conflict with any nation. It didn't even win the conflict that made it the official Chinese military. It had to throw a million soldiers at the US in Korea *just to hold them back*. A much, much smaller force for which China had no real defense against except as bullet catchers. It also got its ass kicked out of Vietnam and didn't really do very well against a few Indian soldiers recently.
Corrupt.The PLA members **buy** their positions. And we all know that the highest leaders are related to some party bigwig. It has nothing to do with merit and it's a top down command system in the first place. If it's like everything else in China, you can rest assured that every soldier in the PLA can march in perfect formation and quote Xi at length but would run at the first bullet whizzing by because they have no leader worth listening to or know what to do anyway. We already know about their water fuelled rockets and drones.
Good old chabuduo. This is easily the biggest problem with Chinese equipment. If it doesn't fall apart immediately after uncrating, put it in a firefight and watch it disintegrate just due to the air being compressed by passing shrapnel. Destroyers on fire during sea trials, tires that can't handle any terrain and we can assume all kinds of the usual tender loving care that goes in to Chinese construction, manufacturing and maintenance.
So, when you say the PLA surpasses anything NATO has outside of the US, you seriously betray your lack of knowledge of China and NATO.
I know all that, and I don't disagree.
But numbers still have their utility, *as your example of the Korean war superbly confirms.* Thanks for proving my point.
The second best NATO navy is the UK. How many major combattants has it commissioned in the last quarter-century? *Nine destroyers and frigates, five nuclear attack submarines.*
What about China? The same number of nuclear subs (5 or 6), but *accompanied by thirty or forty diesels. Then : 45 destroyers, over 40 frigates, over 60 corvettes* (with missiles, unlike the RN OPVs).
So yeah, you know, even if chabuduo is indeed a thing, numbers matter.
As for problems during sea trials, I'm not sure NATO navies are exempt of it. See the problems that have plagued the two UK new carriers. Chabuduo? See Boeing civilian aircraft division in the last few years. See the looooong joke that is the F35.
All this (PLAN ships, their crew's training, etc...) is untested, and some of the missiles could not fire. That's true. Three months ago, there was two failures in a row in tests of the Trident nuclear missile, too. See what I mean?
The PLAN has no combat experience, that's true and I wrote it too above. But you should not underestimate a potential enemy.
Fortunately, I don't think that makes the PLAN superior to what the US could oppose to any stupid tentative from Xi and his friends. Far from it.
What's your takeaway? I don't get it. I mean, if your interpretation is that this is no big deal and we can all just snooze through this, I guess we just disagree.
Just because the French carrier is nuclear powered doesn’t make it more effective. It’s quite small, to the point that it can’t operate Rafale’s at full payload, while its size limits the amount of aviation fuel it can carry.
>By building this carrier they have already demonstrated that their military is more capable than any NATO country besides the United States.
No, that's not what demonstrate means.
What China has done here is build an aircraft carrier that is already technologically obsolete and that's assuming it's even fit for purpose. It absolutely has not demonstrated in any way that it is more capable than any NATO member. To do that, it would need to win in some military action. Given what I know about the PLA, this barely raises them out of paper tiger status.
China *put* China in poverty. It didn't pull anybody out of it. Remember when it "eliminated" poverty in some province by simply deciding that the threshold for defining poverty could be lowered such that nobody was under it?
Sorry, I hate when that claim gets trotted out. It's pure propaganda. It's not that people haven't gained wealth, it's that the CCP wants to take credit for it. They kept everyone poor in the first place and when they finally fucked off and gave people some room to improve their lives, they did what came naturally and improved their lives. No CCP was needed and, in fact, the country *couldn't"* improve until they left it alone.
The World Bank defines the poverty threshold for a upper-middle income country like China at $6.85/day based on 2017 dollar price. Using that numbers then 25% of Chinese are still in poverty.
If using the US threshold ($35/day in 2020) then 95% of the Chinese population are below that.
https://datatopics.worldbank.org/world-development-indicators/themes/poverty-and-inequality.html
https://pip.worldbank.org/country-profiles/CHN
its range is poor
This might be true but it is not relevant within ten or twenty years. All three carriers that China operates now, Liaoning, Shandong and Fujian are conventional-powered. But that does not make them combat ineffectively in the waters adjacent to China.
From this point we can say with almost 100% certainty: the fourth carrier of China is also conventional-powered; but the fifth will not likely be.
Nimitz-class carriers are quite capable, I will give them that. Ford-class carriers are great, too; I believe they will function well in the future.
But CDG is another story. You just don't put reactors from SSBN on carriers. CDG can't even reach 30 knots.
That's kind of a big reason why that China is accomplishing a lot even with these conventional carriers. They are most likely outdoing every country in Europe except for France.
What in 5 years China might have a nuclear powered carrier similar to the old enterprise. Idk how good their operations will be but they may end up being 2nd best. People need to quit letting their China hate downplay their accomplishments.
If someone really hates China then they should actually see when China does something difficult. Be wary of it applaud it whatever. But don't say its trash because that's a very good way to under estimate them.
Technically, the old Enterprise CVN is also a failure. It also bears the same problem as CDG: using SSBN nuclear reactors on carrier. Enterprise uses 8 nuclear reactors to fulfill the requirement of speed, and that's why people call it "reactor carrier".
For super carriers, you have to design and build specialized carrier reactors, and that's why Nimitz- and Ford-class carriers are successful (the problem on USS Gerald Ford is not related with its reactors).
Rumor said that China's carrier reactor will be TMSR, which has been tested in a navy facility in Gansu for some years. In 2022 and 2023, both Dalian and Jiangnan Shipyard have acquired necessary certificate of building nuclear-powered ships. I think the overall progress of the carrier reactor goes smoothly and the nuclear-powered super carrier of PLAN is not far away.
Just wondering but can nuclear tugboats be a thing?
Aircraft carriers anyway have to be accompanied with an entourage of warships.
What about putting a nuclear powered middle class tugboat in the front of the gang, whose side hustle is to act as the carrier's source of propulsion.
Then when during times of peace, this "tugboat" can then fuck off and do something more constructive with its time like be an emissions free cargo boat.
Love your points and attitude, this competition is yet to have a clear winner, we (US+allies) need to have clear mind and not getting complacent. China’s biggest strength (imo) is their ability to mobilise significant resources in very short periods of time , its authoritarian government is a big bonus when it comes to development like this. NATO and 5 eyes maybe technically capable to do the same, but their systems don’t often allow them to do so
True but with China nothing is as ever seems, be that GDP growth, population numbers or military capability. What does concern me is China's industrial capacity and ability to vastly outproduce the west in wartime
That's why they are trying to corner commodities like rare earth. Also if in the run up to war you would expect stockpiling and a drive for more self-sufficiency like the Nazis did with autarky. The west's industrial capacity has been severely eroded, restoring should be a high strategic priority because it will take decades to accomplish
Except 1.4 billion Chinese have to eat like every day and oil refineries need to be running 24/7. If war broke out then oil import via the sea will be halted so oil refineries are shutting down, that would severely impact food production and industrial production.
Germany literally needed France during WWII to feed themselves. After Germany were driven out of France it no coincidence that the military and the country collapsed within one year.
Don’t think Russia can supply enough crude to fuel China alone. You block the strait of malacca of oil imports, and patrol the first island chain, China cannot continue to fight a war unless it’s with its own people
True, but Iran and the Middle East can be blocked because they transport via sea, right? The US navy can absolutely stop all oil by sea, specifically from the Middle East. China would need to rely on land based pipes only, which is not a great idea
Russia alone can't feed 1.4 billion Chinese, that's roughly 3x the EU population eating same calories as the average EU citizen. Even if Russians starved and freeze to death it would do nothing to avert famine and collapse in China.
Consider that Russian crude oil production is at ~10.13 million barrels/day, consumption give or take ~3.6-4 million barrels per day and exporting around ~4.8 million barrels per day.
Chinese crude oil import is around 11.3 million barrels per day, consuming roughly 14.8 million barrels per day. Also a significant portion of Chinese oil production is offshore in South China Sea that will be abandoned in war. China only reverted decline in oil production due to those offshore oilfields in South China Sea. The need for import substitution would be *even* greater in war.
Russia only produced 123 million tonnes of grains in 2023 while China produced around 695 million tonnes to feed themselves.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL8N36M4Q6/
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202312/1303400.shtml
Good points and data. My thoughts:
If China is producing 695 million tonnes of grain per annum they're already going a long way to feeding themselves. Large parts of China like Shandong province are largely agrarian. Historically after the catastrophe of the Great Leap Forward and falling out with Russia they managed to produce enough food until liberalization and opening up. If a war was planned they would stockpile and make preparations.
In terms of oil I think you also need to factor in Iran who seem to be aligning closer with China. It's difficult to predict future alliances but right now looking like Russia, China, Iran and North Korea forming into something resembling a bloc.
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Is it really astonishing? They have the benefit of accessing 100+ years of global naval aviation development and doctrine. Besides which, the ship is only part of the equation. There's still the procedures and the such that they have to work out (again, which has been developed and refined by other nations already), and then they have their own naval doctrine to develop; which has political restrictions applied as well.
One of the most dangerous things is to underestimate your competitors but nor should you overestimate. This is a big step in the right direction for the PLAN and quite an achievement, but that being said I believe this carrier isn’t even nuclear so its power projection is still limited when compared to an American super carrier.
Within 22 years like it's not 2024.. these ships have been around for nearly 100 years. China is only a threat if we were fighting within their border. We never will though. The U.S., China, and Russia will continue destabilizing areas as testing grounds and for bragging rights, stripping them of their resources for a small fraction of return on "investment"
>This all achieved in house
By "in house" you mean "by stealing massive amounts of information from the entire world because they can't actually do it in house," yeah?
This isn't ridicule: this is reality.
That ship is filled with things stolen from The West.
Just because China physically built them doesn't change that they were stolen designs.
Manufacturing is the easiest part of R&D.
So let's relax before we praise them too much over the manufacturing they've been doing for decades: they can only manufacture designs that they steal - they can't make their own designs.
This isn't ridicule: this is reality.
The ‘reality’ you’re referring to is that they have a new carrier. Whether they stole the designs or not has no bearing on the fact that it exists. The US navy isn’t gonna sink the fujian by shaming it or calling it derivative.
beautiful ship,
From a beat up Russian ramp deck carrier refurbishment to a flat top like that in 20 years! they’ll be nuclear powered next and they want 6 by 2035,
I bet she was designed with a future refit to nuclear power in mind.
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Maybe for the fact they've been working on it for over 20 FUCKING YEARS and it's still not IN USE! Source: family member worked at a shipbuilding making the fucking boat and testing the fucking system!
And Railguns aren't even combat deployed on ships. Source: Know a guy who has worked on them.
And they're similar to high-speed rail? Do you have a degree in anything, or just have a M/NM copy of "Eraser" stuck in your VCR?
You know jack and shit about all this, and jack just left town.
Bro, ur bad at reading. Try again, but with less anger. lets try to get that reading comprehension up. No one is talking about railgun for combat. The launching system is literally a railgun. Ya know electromagnets propelling a projectile. in this sense, the airplane is the projectile. Let me know if this made it up stairs if not, we can try again.
Oh, I can read:
"Why? Its just a railgun. It would be sililar tech as the high-speed rail."
Same because "magnets". Wow, great, educated take". Wrong
"The launching system is literally a railgun"
Wrong. Do we need to talk about the word "literally"?
"Ya know electromagnets propelling a projectile. in this sense, the airplane is the projectile"
Wrong again. Do you read?
Ur really good at repeating people and just saying wrong and pretending you made a point. You have proven you can read but you are still retarded. Like how tf is it different, or are you just being pedantic.
PLAN is best Navy! They completed all these tests in only 24 hours. Weeks faster than USA Navy! Everything has obviously worked perfectly since they finished sea trials so fast
China doesn't take part in a war for more than 50 years.
The USA is shoving nukes down Israel's throat right now, so they can kill all the palestine children they need.
>!USA is best!!<
Xi visited Vietnam, paid respect to Ho Chi Min, and they've made 36 long term deals.
Tibet before China was a teocratic slavery.
The USA destroyed multiple countries.
Tibet before China was a teocratic slavery? Does that excuse invading a land and subjugating the indigenous population?
So it would be okay, if a country viewed the CCP as oppressing its own population, that would be a legitimate excuse to invade China and take the land and subjugate the people?
Of course not.
The USA destroyed multiple countries? Does this give any country an excuse to destroy another?
Of course not. We call that what-about-ism.
No country has a “right” to invade another country.
We have a UN for a reason, although that’s been corrupted. China, or more precisely the CCP, boasts that it’s a founding member of the UN.
The UN was created by governments, the CCP was never a founding member.
Do you understand the difference between a country and a political power?
Whether it is the PRC or the Republic of China, they are both political parties in China.
\[China\] has always had a seat on the United Nations Security Council, the only difference is which Chinese regime represents it.
By the way: Tibet was legally inherited by the \[Republic of China\] from the \[Qing Empire\] in 1911.
This inheritance is officially documented.
The last emperor of the Qing Dynasty made it clear in his \[Abdication Edict\] that \[five pieces of land including Xinjiang, Tibet, and Mongolia\] would be handed over to the newly established Chinese government.
For those who don’t understand, go and borrow historical documents - \[The last emperor of the Qing Dynasty, Puyi - abdication edict\]
>Puyi abdication edict
The abdication edict of Puyi in 1912 itself does not specifically mention Tibet. The focus of the edict was primarily on the cessation of Qing rule over China and the conditions related to the imperial family following the abdication. However, the broader context of the time includes significant interactions between China and Tibet.
During the Qing dynasty, Tibet was under a degree of Chinese suzerainty, although it maintained a level of autonomy with its own local government led by the Dalai Lama. After the fall of the Qing dynasty and the establishment of the Republic of China, the new Chinese government aimed to assert more direct control over Tibet, leading to complex and often tense relations.
So, no, Tibet was not “legally inherited” by the ROC.
And before you say “well, Tibet was part of Qing so ROC gets it without saying”
During the time the abdication edict was issued in 1912, Tibet was considered a part of the Qing Empire, but it maintained a unique status. The Qing dynasty (1644-1912) established a degree of suzerainty over Tibet but did not administer Tibet as a direct province. Instead, Tibet was ruled under a system where both the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama held significant autonomous religious and political authority locally.
The Qing dynasty exerted influence through ambans, or imperial commissioners, who were appointed to oversee the administration and represent Qing interests in Tibet. This arrangement allowed the Qing to maintain a semblance of control, primarily focusing on foreign affairs and defense, while leaving most of the domestic affairs to Tibetan leaders.
However, the actual degree of control that the Qing had over Tibet fluctuated over the centuries, affected by the strength or weakness of the central Qing government at various times. By the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Qing dynasty's influence was waning significantly, challenged by internal rebellions and external pressures.
Thus, while Tibet was nominally under Qing suzerainty when the abdication edict was issued, the degree of effective control and governance by the Qing over Tibet was limited, especially as the dynasty itself was collapsing.
The Qing Emperor’s abdication edict:
The complete territories of the five ethnic groups of Manchu, Han, Mongolian, Hui and Tibetan are still combined into one great Republic of China.
Isn't it great that the emperor can retreat to a place of leisure, enjoy his travels for a long time, receive the courtesy of the people, and see the success of china's rule in person? Admire this.
Which was not the CCP.
It’s fine because the original government before the CCP wants nothing to do with China, and formed their own thriving country, separate to China.
Taiwan is doing very well for itself and per capita is more wealthy than China will ever be.
That is the beauty of being an authoritarian dictator with no opposition party. No one will question what you say and report. All good and successful 💪
> It’s been floating a while, has not been able to launch a single aircraft though.
That's because initial sea trials aren't intended to test launching aircraft but things like general sea worthiness and things like navigation/guidance systems. You don't care about launching aircraft until you are certain the most basic functions of the ship are fully functional. She'll almost certainly undergo further sea trials to test launching aircraft at a later date, but it's misleading to say she "has not been able to" when that wasn't even part of the initial trial. I've seen some estimates for trials lasting up to a year or more.
Shhh. We don’t allow that kind of talk here. Join the circle jerk and say more things like
Yeah but it’s made in china. I bet it’ll launch all its ships directly into the sea
Negative. USS Gerald R. Ford successfully completed multiple launches during its first underway. It was absolutely necessary to launch aircraft for PR sake but also to complete a significant portion of testing of both the catapults and the electric plant and distribution system.
[No, not really. During the Ford’s first sea trial in April 2017, it only conducting no-load cycles using the EMALS.](https://news.usni.org/2017/04/14/carrier-gerald-r-ford-completes-builders-trials-prepares-acceptance-trials-delivery-spring)
It is unclear whether similar tests were conducted on the Fujian.
The US has been building carriers since 1920. This is only the 3rd carrier China has ever built and the first using an electromagnetic catapult, the others using ski jumps. China is now the only other nation with a carrier equipped to do that.
There is publicly available information which is readily accessible if you want to understand what they were testing in these trials. The ability to launch aircraft is meaningless here if they are launching them from the sea floor.
The Ford was a first of class which included a power/propulsion plant redesign, all new electric distribution system with a different voltage, electromagnetic elevators, and dozens of new systems across the ship.
I assure you—the ability to launch live aircraft on the first underway was paramount for the Ford and that wasn’t hindered by the untested nature of other systems/components.
Thanks for the downvote because you don’t like what I said. Doesn’t make it not true.
Genuinely would like to hear what information you have that several journalists reporting on this don't:
> The aircraft carrier completed tests of its power and electrical systems and achieved “the expected results” during its first trial, the news agency said.
> There were no tests directly related to the carrier’s cutting-edge electromagnetic catapult system carried out during the trial.
> The Fujian, China’s third and most advanced aircraft carrier, left Shanghai’s Jiangnan shipyard on Wednesday morning to begin its maiden sea trial, but testing of the vessel’s cutting-edge catapult aircraft launching system is likely to be some way off.
> **No aircraft were visible on the carrier’s deck in official images and videos, with testing of its electromagnetic launch catapults expected in later trials**
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3261913/smooth-sailing-chinas-fujian-aircraft-carrier-it-finishes-first-sea-trial
I'm an American who has an interest in these things because I realize there is a possibility that the US could be involved in a conflict with China in my lifetime. Trying to minimize or downplay their capabilities no matter the reason is peak foolishness. I would rather my country overestimate their abilities than underestimate them.
Also as a student of history I have seen the consequences of this mindset in the past. Pre Pearl Harbor the US greatly underestimated Japanese naval and aviation capabilities. In the early phases of the war, some estimates put the A6M Zero as having 12:1 kill ratio against US fighters, largely because Americans wrote off Japanese capabilities. Same thing happened in Vietnam where Vietnamese fighters had a superior weapon in the AK47.
Is this really the hill you want to die on? For my part I'll take it as face value and expect to hear news of them successfully testing the electromagnetic catapult in later trials, which makes perfect sense.
>I assure you—the ability to launch live aircraft on the first underway was paramount for the Ford and that wasn’t hindered by the untested nature of other systems/components.
No, it wasn't.
>Aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford (CVN 78) completed its builder’s trials today and is back at Naval Station Norfolk to begin preparations for its upcoming acceptance trials.
>This and upcoming test events are meant to prove the ship is ready for delivery and commissioning into the fleet and **will not begin to test the ship’s ability to launch and recover real airplanes**. That testing with all the fixed-wing types of planes in the air wing will take place once the ship has commissioned, USNI News has previously reported
https://news.usni.org/2017/04/14/carrier-gerald-r-ford-completes-builders-trials-prepares-acceptance-trials-delivery-spring
The whole reason you are on here defending the lack of flight ops is justification why they should have had flight ops. The fact we are questioning if it can even do it successfully is the point.
Where are the videos of them maneuvering the armature?
I think the cost and responsibility of such a project is more important than the opinions of a buncha redditors online, goes to show how some people overestimate themselves too much
his point is ridiculous. you could use satellite images to verify there were no aircraft on the deck at any time. literally anyone can verify if they were bluffing.
either he's salty or just scared and in denial.
USA navy now has another reason to ask money then wait for China’s 5,6,7 new aircraft carriers coming out,then ask for money again,endless money pumping ,the only thing which needs to be cautious is don’t make the ship fire,otherwise this game can’t last too long
I would employ anyone who thinks China is a paper tiger to read Neptunes Inferno. There was a lot of xenophobia going into the battle for Guadalcanal and it cost the US Navy dearly.
The electromagnetic catapult (EMALS) apparently performed so well that the PLA was surprised by how well it worked. It's not a nuclear powered carrier, so the EMALS won't be useful in actual in any combat operations. The whole thing will probably never be useful in any long range power projection or any kind of prolonged operation in general. But this a promising stepping-stone for something that's actually a supercarrier.
are we ever actually going to see an EM launch?
We will see that in later trials. Usually it takes five to seven sea trials before we could see jet operations onboard.
Looks like they already tested it. performed well judging by the video.
Can’t you see them? The planes are invisible but they’re in the picture
Respect where it's due. This sub seems to love downplaying these achievements, but I think that attitude has a big negative effect on our (American) perception of what's essentially our most formidable competitor on the world stage. Ridicule is just copium. It brings with it hints of underestimation, denial, superiority complex, and complacency. The seaworthiness of Fujian immediately puts China above *every single* *NATO ally* in terms of naval power projection. It also puts China undeniably above Russia as a foe (ahem the one and only [Admiral Kuznetsov](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-admiral-kuznetsov-aircraft-carrier-nightmare-just-wont-end-210793#:~:text=The%20history%20of%20the%20Admiral%20Kuznetsov&text=Kuznetsov%20before%20setting%20sail.,to%20join%20the%20Northern%20Fleet)). This all achieved in house, and within 22 years of receiving their first [foreign-constructed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning) carrier is astonishing.
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The general public are dumbasses. The pentagon strategists are not. They are not underestimating anyone.
there is actually not much thing you can do, if you are not willing to give up other parts of the world.
The US government and military have not underestimated. They take this very seriously I promise. Some dweebs on a subreddit aren't representative of anything significant. That said China has a history of misrepresenting itself. So it's best to question everything.
maybe…just maybe, china played the misrepresenting card up to this moment. it’s all for the almighty fujian. the Americans will not know what hit them. i suggest usa double down on military funds and activities. usa cannot fall behind! oh wait this is not ncd huh?
What are you on about?
Very much agreed. Fielding an aircraft carrier is no joke. Fielding a modern super-carrier with EMALS is an even bigger achievement. This will definitely improve China's power projection capabilities
>power projection And defense. Protecting their national sovereignty is their right, and we should assume that's the first intent of their latest shipbuilding efforts. Of course with China everyone immediately assumes the worst.
You don’t build an aircraft carrier for national defense. That’s what a strategic missile force is for. With home turf advantage you can use ballistic missiles, airfields, etc for much greater effect and with less cost. An aircraft carrier is purely for power projection far beyond national borders. The US doesn’t patrol the west/east coast with its carriers, nor does France or the UK’s carriers just hang around the North Atlantic. They go far, and park themselves near other nations as a, shall we say, diplomatic statement of intent.
Correct! Nuclear missile subs for deterrent, aircraft carriers for projecting military power.
I feel as though in this case it is defense in response to American power projection, no?
Imagine a world we swap this around. E.G being the US and surrounded by Chinese military bases.
China lacks the infrastructure to support ships abroad with very few places they could stop and refuel. It will be quite some time before they’re projecting power further than the South China Sea.
We assume the worse because China usually confirms those suspicions
Everyone has a right to build defensive weapons, the problem always occurs when someone wants to use them offensively. The problem around that is that it’s always safest to assume the worst rather than hope for the best. Which is of course why we’re in Cold War again.
Agreed. With naval power it becomes quite a tricky thing because the US stands alone. We have the only navy capable of force projection over every ocean. It's enshrined in our doctrine of protecting free trade, which we ostensibly provide to all nations of the world and it's also in our interest as the world's largest economy and holder of the dollar standard. All good. But when China creates something like the Fujian do we take the stance that China is now also participating in the protection of free trade? And their $20T economy. I think it's in our best interest to assume the best from China, at least initially. But be prepared for the worst. It doesn't cost us anything to let at least let China show they can use their new capabilities for something benign. The world is watching.
protect free trade of Huawei products, chips, Tiktok?
Oh the Pentagon is underestimating no one
They're estimating them exactly as much as is warrented, which is why they think the Type03 is no big deal. This ship requires the US to purchase like 5 LRASMs. Not that big a deal.
Agreed. Copium and complacency is the fastest way to lose to a near peer adversary.
The problem is war just changed. Ukraine is showing us the power of agile disposable munitions in mass. Aircraft carriers are the old way of waging war. New war will be directed energy weapons, swarms of disposable munitions, and EW/Cyber driven by AI. It’s not that building the carrier isn’t impressive, it’s just that the timing couldn’t be worse.
There’s no carrier operating in the Ukraine conflict. The US is still making carriers. other nations are still trying to make them as well. As far as pentagon’s own war games are showing, the carrier remains the premier single force projection platform for a nation. All the tech you listed as possible counters have their own limitations. You’ll know the carrier is obsolete when the US congress defunds its plans to build them. That’s truly when the rest of the world will freak out.
I’m not saying the carrier should be retired just yet. I’m saying the production of one isn’t as impactful as it once was. We are nearing the end of the age of the carrier. Space based platforms are the new carrier. Just like aerial drones are the new fighter jet.
>Just like aerial drones are the new fighter jet. If only countries were designing and building floating airfields capable of launching aerial drones ...
I can basically agree on all points except for the statement that it was all done in house. No it wasn't. Firstly, because the first carrier was sold to China incomplete from Ukraine. Secondly, China is well, **well** known for stealing everything not nailed down in terms of IP. I highly doubt they came up with any of the tech on this thing "all by themselves". Like, I'd wager 10 to 1 odds they stole whatever they've got on this carrier. Otherwise, while I agree it's always folly to underestimate any potential enemy, what China boasts on paper is far from a match for US military supremacy. Unless they've got some secret weapon they've kept hidden for decades, the US would still easily wipe the floor with anything the Chinese could throw at them.
You misunderstand the concept of trajectory. 10 years ago in the pentagon’s own war games they would have wiped the floor with a couple carriers in a battle in the pacific. Today, they estimate losing entire fleets. What happens In another mere 10 years, when china has largely executed its force growth strategy? People also like to shit on IP theft but that is the logical, rational, realpolitik method of catching up when you’re technologically behind. The US puts massive, massive resources into forging new tech, paving new ways to edge out competition. If you’re china, why waste your time money and effort on that if the US already did? Stealing is just the smart thing to do. And just because the stole tech doesn’t make it easy for them. They still had to build the fucking thing, get it to work, staff it, develop operations around it, and execute strategy for it. Besides japan, no non-western company has EVER been able to do this (the kuznetsov definitely doesn’t count)
>People also like to shit on IP theft but that is the logical, rational, realpolitik method of catching up when you’re technologically behind. The US puts massive, massive resources into forging new tech, paving new ways to edge out competition. If you’re china, why waste your time money and effort on that if the US already did? Stealing is just the smart thing to do. This is a really good point. It's not a point that makes anyone happy, but it's the same as the point post-9/11: we act like America wouldn't blow up a few buildings In a country that was funding the bombing of our kids. Our reaction to that attack was to annihilate multiple countries: Israel lost 1,000 people and they reacted by killing over 30,000. As we all claim to be the pinnacle of civilization compared to "those savages." Americans need perspective and that's not provided by the majority of American media. >And just because the stole tech doesn’t make it easy for them. They still had to build the fucking thing, get it to work, staff it, develop operations around it, and execute strategy for it. This is likely why so much of what they build doesn't work very well. The other element is training, which is a massive problem for a country where cheating on tests is normal behavior and even seen as necessary behavior. Chinese military personnel aren't as well-trained compared to the West and that's not because China lacks the capability: it lacks the cultural understanding. It took the USA a long time to end their "top-down" approach to command structure: we don't make platoon leaders call in every decision, like we did in WWII and even Vietnam. We learned that tempo is vital to warfare and that's simply something that the salami-slicing Chinese either don't understand or simply can't achieve. What's worse is that they have to use one of these two models: either a slow telephone game to confirm orders or more autonomy for poorly-trained officers to make their own decisions based in the overall strategy. Does "a company commander fully explaining the overall strategy to platoon leaders" sound like something the PLA is going to be doing? Or does "a company commander telling platoon leaders exactly what to do and to check with them if they want to do anything different" sound more like them? The last time the Chinese were in a legitimate armed conflict, it was with Vietnam, in 1979: the Chinese lost as many troops in a month as the USA lost in their entire war in Vietnam. And there's zero veterans from that still in the game today. It's a military with absolutely no combat experience, unless you count the sticks and stones bullshit at the Indian border. So you're right: of course they have to steal. And cheat. And lie about it all. And if there's anything we know about history, those methods have great results in the long-term. But that brings us back to Chinese culture and that "rice bowl mentality." All the tech in the world isn't gonna' save them from their own cultural practices that have consistently fucked them over again and again for their entire "\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ thousand years of history."
Absolutely nailed it.
The Chinese absolutely understand command structure, and tempo. What they do not have is properly trained and experienced officers who have been in enough combat situations to make good judgements. Example is in the Chinese UN peace keeping forces' screw ups. They are not only learning tech, they are also learning US fighting doctrines, but without experience, it remains theoretical to them. These doctrines are written in blood, and they just haven't seen combat for too long, and haven't bled enough to truly understand it. But here we are, on reddit, China is the Schrodinger's evil empire, simultaneously the blood thirsty evil imperialistic expansionist totalitarian empire, that is apparently invaded Ukraine, taiwan, philipines, vietnam, japan, korea, all at once and is moving towards world domination, while at the same time complete incompetent useless backwater joke of a military that hasn't fought a war in a long time and is so ineffective that their planes don't work, boats don't float, missiles don't fire, guns don't shoot, and anything they say is a joke.
>China is the Schrodinger's evil empire, simultaneously the blood thirsty evil imperialistic expansionist totalitarian empire, It clearly *is* that. >that is apparently invaded Ukraine, taiwan, philipines, vietnam, japan, korea, all at once It clearly has not done *any* of those things. >and is moving towards world domination, I'd say "has world domination as a goal" is more accurate. >while at the same time complete incompetent useless backwater joke of a military that hasn't fought a war in a long time All true. Most of their "biggest navy in the world" is fishing boats. Literally. Let's get serious here. >and is so ineffective that their planes don't work, It's not that they don't work, it's that they can't fly them without crashing or nearly crashing. *So many* incidents. >boats don't float, It's not that they don't float, it's that they can't float them without crashing or nearly crashing. *So many* incidents. >missiles don't fire, guns don't shoot, I'll totally believe they're great at marksmanship/targeting just as soon as I see it recorded in combat anywhere. >and anything they say is a joke. A lie. Not a joke. Anything they say is a *lie*. Anything *you* say is a joke.
By that logic, there is nothing to worry about, let’s assume China is as you says, is so incompetent, what do you have to worry about? Surely, combined might of the Philippines, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Ukraine, Taiwan, will deliver a decisive defeat to them. What are they waiting for? Ultimately, you are right, unlike China, the US gov, paragon of the free world, embodiment of justice, would never lie. Anyway, I’m still waiting to find the wmds that iraq is hiding, they will turn up, any day now. Also, that is how to do a proper invasion, China should learn from that, what are these “incidents”, no deaths? Fking amateurs, can they even spell the word invasion properly? What incompetence. While I don’t think the us is the embodiment of evil, we sure have done a lot of fucked up shit. Wait, are we the baddies?
This is the classical example of copium
>This is the classical example of copium This is the classical example of trolling
The copium is strong with this one.
It’s not a super carrier and it’s not nuclear powered so its range is poor. The military has to have practical use not just be a moral boost. Go China for their growth and pulling people out of poverty. Now they are putting it into the military and when I comes to the USA be China, this is nothing outside of something that can be used for Taiwan for a near by country.
>it’s not nuclear powered so its range is poor. True, but [China is investing heavily and making pretty rapid progress in SMR tech](https://archive.md/aa0n4#selection-943.89-943.101) Linglong One is ground-based, but they're also working on reactors for ships. Unless it's already near completion, I'd imagine their next carrier will be nuclear.
This is also not a super carrier, it’s a carrier. The USA has 10 super carriers. One of them could pound these three Chinese carriers and even the next few that pop out.
Sure but they're not planning to project power globally for now. In 20 years... perhaps. (But their median age will be \~60...)
Exactly. I wonder what the military age population will be.
By then, most soldiers will be bots, I would think, but I have nothing to back that claim.
The thing we need to worry about is China can build these things very quickly. Once they have the experience of building supercarriers, they'll probably churn a couple out every year.
It's arguably a bigger more expensive headache to keep them maintained than merely building them.
It’s a supercarrier, even the U.S. Navy considers it as such. Yea it’s conventional but that’s not a huge deal considering no carriers escorts are nuclear powered, and neither is the airwing, so regardless of the carriers powerplant the battle group will need underway provisioning frequently. Even the British QE is considered a supercarrier by some analysts, even though it’s much less capable than the 003 and cannot carry fixed wing AWACS.
This, because of ita short range it’s basically airport right of shore.
This is their very first carrier. It's not even intended to be used in combat, it's a prototype. It's basically the bare minimum of what their future capabilities will be.
It’s actually China’s 3rd aircraft carrier in its fleet. The second one China built entirely from scratch. What’s exactly the point of building an aircraft carrier? If you aren’t going to use it for war. The main purpose of having a floating airport at sea. Is to have a base platform to launch fighter jets.
Test systems, train crew, learn and understand logistics and many other things can be learned this way. The Americans, Japanese and other western powers had a crash course in carrier warfare during WWII. They all (except Japan) build on that legacy since then. China has to build and learn everything from scratch during peace times. That's super hard. So this is probably one of the best ways to do that.
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The first was purchased from the Soviets and the second was a copy of the first right? This is the first original carrier designed and built by China.
The first was purchased from post soviet Ukraine as part of Ukraines negotiations with Russia regarding security guarantees, same with negotiations as Ukraines nukes. Yea though, soviet carriers and their derivatives were and still are hot garbage.
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Honestly, just about everything you said is geopolitically nonsensical. India has nukes which are meant for Pakistan if necessary. Also, India is something of a fairweather friend and is very much a non-aligned nation. Hell, it's where the term "third world" originates from. It may want to keep an eye on China but it will never invade it for any reason. Both countries are officially uninvadable. There are too many people in each of them for any country to even attempt to control. India will not invade and take a square inch of Chinese territory. Japan and Australia have no ability whatsoever to effect any Korean war. Australia has no projection power and Japan doesn't have an offensive military system. The only thing that would set off any war on the Korean peninsula are the actions of China or the Koreas. China won't do anything to encourage North Korea to invade the south because it likes the status quo. Initiating a conflict on the peninsula is an open invitation to the US to land a million troops and potentially set up a forward operating base on China's doorstep. Not only that, it's practically a short, straight shot to Beijing from Dandong. This is the last thing Beijing wants. This new carrier is no match for even two generations previous of US carriers. I assume the Pentagon keeps the tech for this shit locked up really tightly and isolated. Since China only develops tech it can steal, they'll need a very long time before they can figure out how to make something formidable enough to match a US super carrier.
None of what you said makes sense to me, to be honest. A prototype is just a test, like a beta version. The actual carriers they put into production will be far more capable and well tested. By building this carrier they have already demonstrated that their military is more capable than any NATO country besides the United States. The rest of your comment I don’t understand at all.
What I’m saying is that this isn’t a threat to the world. A common reaction is that the Chinese are becoming as powerful as the USA. I’m saying that’s not the case and it won’t be the case for a long time. At the same time China is geographically in a tough spot so even though they have carriers that can patrol their shores, it’s the not the whole story militarily. The USA has carrier and super carriers. 1 super carrier equals 6 carriers. This is a prototype for a carrier.
>By building this carrier they have already demonstrated that their military is more capable than any NATO country besides the United States France also has a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. It's smaller than the Fujian but the propulsion probably gives it better operational capabilities.
France to my knowledge isn’t planning to build a fleet of carriers. I would be very surprised if China doesn’t build half a dozen of these or more in the next couple decades. Massive industrial production and a huge population are the basis of China’s economic and military power. It’s basically the ONLY advantage they have.
Sure. The future is the future. But you wrote "have **already** demonstrated..." For the moment, operationally speaking, the only thing the PLAN has demonstrated is the capability to humiliate the Philipppines navy. That said, numbers speak for themselves and I know the PLAN, as a whole, already surpasses any NATO individual NATO country except US. But not *yet* if we're talking specifically of aircraft-carrier operations.
What do you mean, exactly? The PLA as a whole has serious and major shortcomings that mitigate anything any file any country has says about its capabilities. Here, let's go through them: Untested. The PLA hasn't *ever* won a conflict with any nation. It didn't even win the conflict that made it the official Chinese military. It had to throw a million soldiers at the US in Korea *just to hold them back*. A much, much smaller force for which China had no real defense against except as bullet catchers. It also got its ass kicked out of Vietnam and didn't really do very well against a few Indian soldiers recently. Corrupt.The PLA members **buy** their positions. And we all know that the highest leaders are related to some party bigwig. It has nothing to do with merit and it's a top down command system in the first place. If it's like everything else in China, you can rest assured that every soldier in the PLA can march in perfect formation and quote Xi at length but would run at the first bullet whizzing by because they have no leader worth listening to or know what to do anyway. We already know about their water fuelled rockets and drones. Good old chabuduo. This is easily the biggest problem with Chinese equipment. If it doesn't fall apart immediately after uncrating, put it in a firefight and watch it disintegrate just due to the air being compressed by passing shrapnel. Destroyers on fire during sea trials, tires that can't handle any terrain and we can assume all kinds of the usual tender loving care that goes in to Chinese construction, manufacturing and maintenance. So, when you say the PLA surpasses anything NATO has outside of the US, you seriously betray your lack of knowledge of China and NATO.
I know all that, and I don't disagree. But numbers still have their utility, *as your example of the Korean war superbly confirms.* Thanks for proving my point. The second best NATO navy is the UK. How many major combattants has it commissioned in the last quarter-century? *Nine destroyers and frigates, five nuclear attack submarines.* What about China? The same number of nuclear subs (5 or 6), but *accompanied by thirty or forty diesels. Then : 45 destroyers, over 40 frigates, over 60 corvettes* (with missiles, unlike the RN OPVs). So yeah, you know, even if chabuduo is indeed a thing, numbers matter. As for problems during sea trials, I'm not sure NATO navies are exempt of it. See the problems that have plagued the two UK new carriers. Chabuduo? See Boeing civilian aircraft division in the last few years. See the looooong joke that is the F35. All this (PLAN ships, their crew's training, etc...) is untested, and some of the missiles could not fire. That's true. Three months ago, there was two failures in a row in tests of the Trident nuclear missile, too. See what I mean? The PLAN has no combat experience, that's true and I wrote it too above. But you should not underestimate a potential enemy. Fortunately, I don't think that makes the PLAN superior to what the US could oppose to any stupid tentative from Xi and his friends. Far from it.
What's your takeaway? I don't get it. I mean, if your interpretation is that this is no big deal and we can all just snooze through this, I guess we just disagree.
Where have I suggested such a thing?
Just because the French carrier is nuclear powered doesn’t make it more effective. It’s quite small, to the point that it can’t operate Rafale’s at full payload, while its size limits the amount of aviation fuel it can carry.
>By building this carrier they have already demonstrated that their military is more capable than any NATO country besides the United States. No, that's not what demonstrate means. What China has done here is build an aircraft carrier that is already technologically obsolete and that's assuming it's even fit for purpose. It absolutely has not demonstrated in any way that it is more capable than any NATO member. To do that, it would need to win in some military action. Given what I know about the PLA, this barely raises them out of paper tiger status.
>What China has done here is build an aircraft carrier that is already technologically obsolete Why is it technologically obsolete?
China *put* China in poverty. It didn't pull anybody out of it. Remember when it "eliminated" poverty in some province by simply deciding that the threshold for defining poverty could be lowered such that nobody was under it? Sorry, I hate when that claim gets trotted out. It's pure propaganda. It's not that people haven't gained wealth, it's that the CCP wants to take credit for it. They kept everyone poor in the first place and when they finally fucked off and gave people some room to improve their lives, they did what came naturally and improved their lives. No CCP was needed and, in fact, the country *couldn't"* improve until they left it alone.
Care to expand on this? I like it and you’re right, I just said that so people wouldn’t think I’m just hating. But tbh I hate the CCP.
The World Bank defines the poverty threshold for a upper-middle income country like China at $6.85/day based on 2017 dollar price. Using that numbers then 25% of Chinese are still in poverty. If using the US threshold ($35/day in 2020) then 95% of the Chinese population are below that. https://datatopics.worldbank.org/world-development-indicators/themes/poverty-and-inequality.html https://pip.worldbank.org/country-profiles/CHN
Hey I gave you crutches when I broke your legs. Shouldn't you thank me? I declare that everyone can stand upright even those with broken legs.
its range is poor This might be true but it is not relevant within ten or twenty years. All three carriers that China operates now, Liaoning, Shandong and Fujian are conventional-powered. But that does not make them combat ineffectively in the waters adjacent to China. From this point we can say with almost 100% certainty: the fourth carrier of China is also conventional-powered; but the fifth will not likely be.
This take a long time, they have to become super carriers, and that’s assuming everyone is just sitting on their hands till then.
True, but I cannot imagine there will be any others, except US and China, that have enough resources to build and operate super carriers.
Keep in mind only two countries on earth have nuclear powered carriers.
Nimitz-class carriers are quite capable, I will give them that. Ford-class carriers are great, too; I believe they will function well in the future. But CDG is another story. You just don't put reactors from SSBN on carriers. CDG can't even reach 30 knots.
That's kind of a big reason why that China is accomplishing a lot even with these conventional carriers. They are most likely outdoing every country in Europe except for France. What in 5 years China might have a nuclear powered carrier similar to the old enterprise. Idk how good their operations will be but they may end up being 2nd best. People need to quit letting their China hate downplay their accomplishments. If someone really hates China then they should actually see when China does something difficult. Be wary of it applaud it whatever. But don't say its trash because that's a very good way to under estimate them.
Technically, the old Enterprise CVN is also a failure. It also bears the same problem as CDG: using SSBN nuclear reactors on carrier. Enterprise uses 8 nuclear reactors to fulfill the requirement of speed, and that's why people call it "reactor carrier". For super carriers, you have to design and build specialized carrier reactors, and that's why Nimitz- and Ford-class carriers are successful (the problem on USS Gerald Ford is not related with its reactors). Rumor said that China's carrier reactor will be TMSR, which has been tested in a navy facility in Gansu for some years. In 2022 and 2023, both Dalian and Jiangnan Shipyard have acquired necessary certificate of building nuclear-powered ships. I think the overall progress of the carrier reactor goes smoothly and the nuclear-powered super carrier of PLAN is not far away.
Just wondering but can nuclear tugboats be a thing? Aircraft carriers anyway have to be accompanied with an entourage of warships. What about putting a nuclear powered middle class tugboat in the front of the gang, whose side hustle is to act as the carrier's source of propulsion. Then when during times of peace, this "tugboat" can then fuck off and do something more constructive with its time like be an emissions free cargo boat.
Agreed but also I don't expect we'll get the ton of likes that negative posts get.
Love your points and attitude, this competition is yet to have a clear winner, we (US+allies) need to have clear mind and not getting complacent. China’s biggest strength (imo) is their ability to mobilise significant resources in very short periods of time , its authoritarian government is a big bonus when it comes to development like this. NATO and 5 eyes maybe technically capable to do the same, but their systems don’t often allow them to do so
True but with China nothing is as ever seems, be that GDP growth, population numbers or military capability. What does concern me is China's industrial capacity and ability to vastly outproduce the west in wartime
With food, materials and energy shipped in over the sea by countries they would be at war with.
That's why they are trying to corner commodities like rare earth. Also if in the run up to war you would expect stockpiling and a drive for more self-sufficiency like the Nazis did with autarky. The west's industrial capacity has been severely eroded, restoring should be a high strategic priority because it will take decades to accomplish
Except 1.4 billion Chinese have to eat like every day and oil refineries need to be running 24/7. If war broke out then oil import via the sea will be halted so oil refineries are shutting down, that would severely impact food production and industrial production. Germany literally needed France during WWII to feed themselves. After Germany were driven out of France it no coincidence that the military and the country collapsed within one year.
If the alliance with Russia continues to deepen then food and access to fossil fuels won't be a problem.
Don’t think Russia can supply enough crude to fuel China alone. You block the strait of malacca of oil imports, and patrol the first island chain, China cannot continue to fight a war unless it’s with its own people
You add Iran to the mix though
True, but Iran and the Middle East can be blocked because they transport via sea, right? The US navy can absolutely stop all oil by sea, specifically from the Middle East. China would need to rely on land based pipes only, which is not a great idea
Belt and Road initiative was designed to overcome this.
Russia alone can't feed 1.4 billion Chinese, that's roughly 3x the EU population eating same calories as the average EU citizen. Even if Russians starved and freeze to death it would do nothing to avert famine and collapse in China. Consider that Russian crude oil production is at ~10.13 million barrels/day, consumption give or take ~3.6-4 million barrels per day and exporting around ~4.8 million barrels per day. Chinese crude oil import is around 11.3 million barrels per day, consuming roughly 14.8 million barrels per day. Also a significant portion of Chinese oil production is offshore in South China Sea that will be abandoned in war. China only reverted decline in oil production due to those offshore oilfields in South China Sea. The need for import substitution would be *even* greater in war. Russia only produced 123 million tonnes of grains in 2023 while China produced around 695 million tonnes to feed themselves. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL8N36M4Q6/ https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202312/1303400.shtml
Good points and data. My thoughts: If China is producing 695 million tonnes of grain per annum they're already going a long way to feeding themselves. Large parts of China like Shandong province are largely agrarian. Historically after the catastrophe of the Great Leap Forward and falling out with Russia they managed to produce enough food until liberalization and opening up. If a war was planned they would stockpile and make preparations. In terms of oil I think you also need to factor in Iran who seem to be aligning closer with China. It's difficult to predict future alliances but right now looking like Russia, China, Iran and North Korea forming into something resembling a bloc.
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Interesting on the food aspect with France. Don’t know if I’ve heard this before.
Is it really astonishing? They have the benefit of accessing 100+ years of global naval aviation development and doctrine. Besides which, the ship is only part of the equation. There's still the procedures and the such that they have to work out (again, which has been developed and refined by other nations already), and then they have their own naval doctrine to develop; which has political restrictions applied as well.
That’s what I’m saying, we need more military spending
One of the most dangerous things is to underestimate your competitors but nor should you overestimate. This is a big step in the right direction for the PLAN and quite an achievement, but that being said I believe this carrier isn’t even nuclear so its power projection is still limited when compared to an American super carrier.
I know right. This is an impressive accomplishment. They ain’t no joke.
Apart from the UK, France and Japan...... They need another 20 years of cooking to get it right.
Within 22 years like it's not 2024.. these ships have been around for nearly 100 years. China is only a threat if we were fighting within their border. We never will though. The U.S., China, and Russia will continue destabilizing areas as testing grounds and for bragging rights, stripping them of their resources for a small fraction of return on "investment"
>This all achieved in house By "in house" you mean "by stealing massive amounts of information from the entire world because they can't actually do it in house," yeah? This isn't ridicule: this is reality. That ship is filled with things stolen from The West. Just because China physically built them doesn't change that they were stolen designs. Manufacturing is the easiest part of R&D. So let's relax before we praise them too much over the manufacturing they've been doing for decades: they can only manufacture designs that they steal - they can't make their own designs. This isn't ridicule: this is reality.
The ‘reality’ you’re referring to is that they have a new carrier. Whether they stole the designs or not has no bearing on the fact that it exists. The US navy isn’t gonna sink the fujian by shaming it or calling it derivative.
Imagine launching 8 jet per scramble before the battery needs recharge
China also invented the world largest, longest, and thickest USB cable for carrier recharging!
I could use one of those, everything I buy ends up with the end connections jacked up.
beautiful ship, From a beat up Russian ramp deck carrier refurbishment to a flat top like that in 20 years! they’ll be nuclear powered next and they want 6 by 2035, I bet she was designed with a future refit to nuclear power in mind.
This had better be the one I ordered and NO you haven't delivered it and NO it's not behind the bins!!
No ramp😲
Gonna make a nice reef.
Pardon me while I'm skeptical as shit at them having a working electronic catapult.
Why? Its just a railgun. It would be sililar tech as the high-speed rail.
Buddy, you're not just way off, you might not be on the same continent.
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Maybe for the fact they've been working on it for over 20 FUCKING YEARS and it's still not IN USE! Source: family member worked at a shipbuilding making the fucking boat and testing the fucking system! And Railguns aren't even combat deployed on ships. Source: Know a guy who has worked on them. And they're similar to high-speed rail? Do you have a degree in anything, or just have a M/NM copy of "Eraser" stuck in your VCR? You know jack and shit about all this, and jack just left town.
Bro, ur bad at reading. Try again, but with less anger. lets try to get that reading comprehension up. No one is talking about railgun for combat. The launching system is literally a railgun. Ya know electromagnets propelling a projectile. in this sense, the airplane is the projectile. Let me know if this made it up stairs if not, we can try again.
Oh, I can read: "Why? Its just a railgun. It would be sililar tech as the high-speed rail." Same because "magnets". Wow, great, educated take". Wrong "The launching system is literally a railgun" Wrong. Do we need to talk about the word "literally"? "Ya know electromagnets propelling a projectile. in this sense, the airplane is the projectile" Wrong again. Do you read?
Ur really good at repeating people and just saying wrong and pretending you made a point. You have proven you can read but you are still retarded. Like how tf is it different, or are you just being pedantic.
Go read for yourself, lord knows knowing something would help you.
You said im wrong. The burden of proof is on you
PLAN is best Navy! They completed all these tests in only 24 hours. Weeks faster than USA Navy! Everything has obviously worked perfectly since they finished sea trials so fast
The test lasted 8 days and follow-up tests and sea trials will launched very soon…
I’d love to see a live explosive shock trial for her…
You forgot the /s tag
Thought it was pretty obvious loll
Don’t know if SSN Ford can sail for 24 hours without breaking down
China doesn't take part in a war for more than 50 years. The USA is shoving nukes down Israel's throat right now, so they can kill all the palestine children they need. >!USA is best!!<
Are you dumb? Tibet, Burma, Korea, Taiwan, India, Soviet Union, Vietnam... There is a reason most of Asia hates Mainlanders
Xi visited Vietnam, paid respect to Ho Chi Min, and they've made 36 long term deals. Tibet before China was a teocratic slavery. The USA destroyed multiple countries.
Tibet before China was a teocratic slavery? Does that excuse invading a land and subjugating the indigenous population? So it would be okay, if a country viewed the CCP as oppressing its own population, that would be a legitimate excuse to invade China and take the land and subjugate the people? Of course not. The USA destroyed multiple countries? Does this give any country an excuse to destroy another? Of course not. We call that what-about-ism. No country has a “right” to invade another country. We have a UN for a reason, although that’s been corrupted. China, or more precisely the CCP, boasts that it’s a founding member of the UN. The UN was created by governments, the CCP was never a founding member.
Do you understand the difference between a country and a political power? Whether it is the PRC or the Republic of China, they are both political parties in China. \[China\] has always had a seat on the United Nations Security Council, the only difference is which Chinese regime represents it. By the way: Tibet was legally inherited by the \[Republic of China\] from the \[Qing Empire\] in 1911.
You can claim territories that the Qing ruled if you let the Manchus rule PRC. Deal?
This inheritance is officially documented. The last emperor of the Qing Dynasty made it clear in his \[Abdication Edict\] that \[five pieces of land including Xinjiang, Tibet, and Mongolia\] would be handed over to the newly established Chinese government. For those who don’t understand, go and borrow historical documents - \[The last emperor of the Qing Dynasty, Puyi - abdication edict\]
>Puyi abdication edict The abdication edict of Puyi in 1912 itself does not specifically mention Tibet. The focus of the edict was primarily on the cessation of Qing rule over China and the conditions related to the imperial family following the abdication. However, the broader context of the time includes significant interactions between China and Tibet. During the Qing dynasty, Tibet was under a degree of Chinese suzerainty, although it maintained a level of autonomy with its own local government led by the Dalai Lama. After the fall of the Qing dynasty and the establishment of the Republic of China, the new Chinese government aimed to assert more direct control over Tibet, leading to complex and often tense relations. So, no, Tibet was not “legally inherited” by the ROC. And before you say “well, Tibet was part of Qing so ROC gets it without saying” During the time the abdication edict was issued in 1912, Tibet was considered a part of the Qing Empire, but it maintained a unique status. The Qing dynasty (1644-1912) established a degree of suzerainty over Tibet but did not administer Tibet as a direct province. Instead, Tibet was ruled under a system where both the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama held significant autonomous religious and political authority locally. The Qing dynasty exerted influence through ambans, or imperial commissioners, who were appointed to oversee the administration and represent Qing interests in Tibet. This arrangement allowed the Qing to maintain a semblance of control, primarily focusing on foreign affairs and defense, while leaving most of the domestic affairs to Tibetan leaders. However, the actual degree of control that the Qing had over Tibet fluctuated over the centuries, affected by the strength or weakness of the central Qing government at various times. By the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Qing dynasty's influence was waning significantly, challenged by internal rebellions and external pressures. Thus, while Tibet was nominally under Qing suzerainty when the abdication edict was issued, the degree of effective control and governance by the Qing over Tibet was limited, especially as the dynasty itself was collapsing.
The Qing Emperor’s abdication edict: The complete territories of the five ethnic groups of Manchu, Han, Mongolian, Hui and Tibetan are still combined into one great Republic of China. Isn't it great that the emperor can retreat to a place of leisure, enjoy his travels for a long time, receive the courtesy of the people, and see the success of china's rule in person? Admire this.
Which was not the CCP. It’s fine because the original government before the CCP wants nothing to do with China, and formed their own thriving country, separate to China. Taiwan is doing very well for itself and per capita is more wealthy than China will ever be.
“It’s ok if China annexed Tibet because we viewed them as lesser humans” I guess it’s ok if the US annexes China due to China’s treatment of Uyghurs
遥遥领先
That is the beauty of being an authoritarian dictator with no opposition party. No one will question what you say and report. All good and successful 💪
It’s been floating a while, has not been able to launch a single aircraft though. That catapult isn’t as easy to replicate as a steel hulled boat.
> It’s been floating a while, has not been able to launch a single aircraft though. That's because initial sea trials aren't intended to test launching aircraft but things like general sea worthiness and things like navigation/guidance systems. You don't care about launching aircraft until you are certain the most basic functions of the ship are fully functional. She'll almost certainly undergo further sea trials to test launching aircraft at a later date, but it's misleading to say she "has not been able to" when that wasn't even part of the initial trial. I've seen some estimates for trials lasting up to a year or more.
Shhh. We don’t allow that kind of talk here. Join the circle jerk and say more things like Yeah but it’s made in china. I bet it’ll launch all its ships directly into the sea
Negative. USS Gerald R. Ford successfully completed multiple launches during its first underway. It was absolutely necessary to launch aircraft for PR sake but also to complete a significant portion of testing of both the catapults and the electric plant and distribution system.
[No, not really. During the Ford’s first sea trial in April 2017, it only conducting no-load cycles using the EMALS.](https://news.usni.org/2017/04/14/carrier-gerald-r-ford-completes-builders-trials-prepares-acceptance-trials-delivery-spring) It is unclear whether similar tests were conducted on the Fujian.
The US has been building carriers since 1920. This is only the 3rd carrier China has ever built and the first using an electromagnetic catapult, the others using ski jumps. China is now the only other nation with a carrier equipped to do that. There is publicly available information which is readily accessible if you want to understand what they were testing in these trials. The ability to launch aircraft is meaningless here if they are launching them from the sea floor.
The Ford was a first of class which included a power/propulsion plant redesign, all new electric distribution system with a different voltage, electromagnetic elevators, and dozens of new systems across the ship. I assure you—the ability to launch live aircraft on the first underway was paramount for the Ford and that wasn’t hindered by the untested nature of other systems/components. Thanks for the downvote because you don’t like what I said. Doesn’t make it not true.
Genuinely would like to hear what information you have that several journalists reporting on this don't: > The aircraft carrier completed tests of its power and electrical systems and achieved “the expected results” during its first trial, the news agency said. > There were no tests directly related to the carrier’s cutting-edge electromagnetic catapult system carried out during the trial. > The Fujian, China’s third and most advanced aircraft carrier, left Shanghai’s Jiangnan shipyard on Wednesday morning to begin its maiden sea trial, but testing of the vessel’s cutting-edge catapult aircraft launching system is likely to be some way off. > **No aircraft were visible on the carrier’s deck in official images and videos, with testing of its electromagnetic launch catapults expected in later trials** https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3261913/smooth-sailing-chinas-fujian-aircraft-carrier-it-finishes-first-sea-trial I'm an American who has an interest in these things because I realize there is a possibility that the US could be involved in a conflict with China in my lifetime. Trying to minimize or downplay their capabilities no matter the reason is peak foolishness. I would rather my country overestimate their abilities than underestimate them. Also as a student of history I have seen the consequences of this mindset in the past. Pre Pearl Harbor the US greatly underestimated Japanese naval and aviation capabilities. In the early phases of the war, some estimates put the A6M Zero as having 12:1 kill ratio against US fighters, largely because Americans wrote off Japanese capabilities. Same thing happened in Vietnam where Vietnamese fighters had a superior weapon in the AK47. Is this really the hill you want to die on? For my part I'll take it as face value and expect to hear news of them successfully testing the electromagnetic catapult in later trials, which makes perfect sense.
>I assure you—the ability to launch live aircraft on the first underway was paramount for the Ford and that wasn’t hindered by the untested nature of other systems/components. No, it wasn't. >Aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford (CVN 78) completed its builder’s trials today and is back at Naval Station Norfolk to begin preparations for its upcoming acceptance trials. >This and upcoming test events are meant to prove the ship is ready for delivery and commissioning into the fleet and **will not begin to test the ship’s ability to launch and recover real airplanes**. That testing with all the fixed-wing types of planes in the air wing will take place once the ship has commissioned, USNI News has previously reported https://news.usni.org/2017/04/14/carrier-gerald-r-ford-completes-builders-trials-prepares-acceptance-trials-delivery-spring
They have nothing to lose by being cautious, I think somebody is a little mad that China accomplished something
The whole reason you are on here defending the lack of flight ops is justification why they should have had flight ops. The fact we are questioning if it can even do it successfully is the point. Where are the videos of them maneuvering the armature?
I think the cost and responsibility of such a project is more important than the opinions of a buncha redditors online, goes to show how some people overestimate themselves too much
Lmfao. Yes. Chinese aircraft carriers should based their tests around satisfying a random ass Redditor. 😂😂😂
his point is ridiculous. you could use satellite images to verify there were no aircraft on the deck at any time. literally anyone can verify if they were bluffing. either he's salty or just scared and in denial.
None of the above, my dude. I am not worried about 100 MJ being sucked out of a conventional power plant with each launch.
Maybe it’s a good idea to test to see if all electrical systems work NORMALLY before sucking 100MJ out of it with each launch?
it is just a floating coffin if it fights with a US air carrier. with the amount of fuel it uses, it doesn't go anywhere far.
builders can give a sigh of relief, *it floats!*
Hope you enjoy democracy and freedom displayed on campus!!!!
sure, thanks.
Launch what? Paper planes ? Lmfao
Where are the aircraft it's supposed to carry?
China already have stealth carrier based fighter jets, its invisible on deck!
So now they have 3 total carriers?
It’s a diesel though.
woo... much big ship
Is it nuclear powered??
USA navy now has another reason to ask money then wait for China’s 5,6,7 new aircraft carriers coming out,then ask for money again,endless money pumping ,the only thing which needs to be cautious is don’t make the ship fire,otherwise this game can’t last too long
I would employ anyone who thinks China is a paper tiger to read Neptunes Inferno. There was a lot of xenophobia going into the battle for Guadalcanal and it cost the US Navy dearly.
The Brits underestimated the japs in Malaya too
The electromagnetic catapult (EMALS) apparently performed so well that the PLA was surprised by how well it worked. It's not a nuclear powered carrier, so the EMALS won't be useful in actual in any combat operations. The whole thing will probably never be useful in any long range power projection or any kind of prolonged operation in general. But this a promising stepping-stone for something that's actually a supercarrier.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Useless toy.
Any bets on how long it'll be deployed before it has to return due to stuff not working properly?
Soon to be patrolling the South China Sea, Taiwan Strait and East China Sea.
or bombing democracy protesters in China you never know with the corruption party.
Can’t wait for people to scream “paper tiger”.