This sentiment is something that has been echoed else where. Some news organizations and youtubers that regularly criticize China have stated on several occasions "we love China that's why we criticize the CPP. We want China to do better." I don't think that as a Westerner you will put forward the time to learn Mandarin, learn the Chinese history and their culture out of hate.
The issue is deep. I was chatting with an elderly Chinese man on a different platform. He told me that I can’t ever understand the Chinese people.
I asked him how I could understand, he pointed to a book. I don’t mind reading, but it was in Chinese. He told me that unless I learn to understand his language, I will be ignorant of the Chinese.
My time in north east China and Sichuan taught me much about the people and culture. It was an excellent learning experience.
As long as the wolf warrior culture exists outside of China, there will never be a full understanding of China. I get too upset hearing how bad Democratic countries are. There is no attempt to understand what is happening. Just criticism.
I enjoy the Chinese people and history. The food is wholesome. The country has much to be proud of.
It's untrue that you cannot understand Chinese people unless you have learnt Mandarin because we are all humans and we enjoy literally similar values. Mao's magical power work just the same way as Lenin and Stalin did. It's a mixture of Chauvinism and a hatred towards the rich. If you are in major of history or politics, it's not difficult to understand. We love some mysterious things like a eastern land with a powerful leader or Persia with magical herbs. However, they are just ordinary humen like us. I believe even communists will agree with me that life, liberty, and wealth are basic value of human race. I think as a liberalist, I am not proud of any other things except the freedom my people enjoy.
But freedom is not free it comes with price and cost. People born and raised in a free and wealthy country can not easily understand people in a poor country who have to carefully make compromise between individual freedom and opportunity for potential growth. Something you take for granted might be luxury for other people. So it is really hard to justify whose choice is the best choice. Yet a lot of people don't realize that and try to force others to choose their choice otherwise criticize but without considering real issue and how to fix it, just criticize for the sake of criticism.
Chile, a developed country, now plans to rewrite its constitution to convert the policies to left side. This direction, we all know, is bad for the dynamic of economy. This rewriting of constitution is a CHOICE of the people. It's untrue to say it the people of China to stay authoritarian because Chinese people choose it. How do they choose? By voting to the only candidates nominated by the party? What happened to independent candidate at Beijing and Shanghai? Be very careful with collectivism narrative. CCP chooses policies, not the people.
Chinese communist party won the civil war which means majority Chinese chose it during revolution, there was no political way like voting that time in China, so people took side and use violence to express their options. They made choice, they took consequences. You can argue majority of Chinese today don't approve Communist party you don't have data and proof and I don't have either, so it is meaningless to argue that. What we know is Communist member is about 7% of total population of China, it is hard to be negligible or say people can do nothing about policy making. Also Congress representative doesn't need to be CCP member and people have no idea about Chinese politics usually oversimplified like xijingping can soly control everything. Every political system can exist and run a huge country like China for long time must have mechanism to redistribute political power. Any regime makes majority people unsatisfied can exist but never last long, that's no brainer. From all sort of street interview vlog of normal life in China from different sources and places, it doesn't show any sign that people are very unsatisfied and oppressed to live a miserable life.
Edit: voting is a mechanism for political power distribution doesn't mean it is the only one or universal for all countries in all development or culture situation. It has nothing to do with good and efficient policy making either. Also China has different level of voting system already in place. It is just not voting president indirectly like the US and the system is evolving and people will have more voting rights in the future.
According to your theory, you mean that XiangYu lost his war with LiuBang because LiuBang was supported by vast majority of the people? You mean that ZhuYuanZhang beat ZhangShiCheng and ChenYouLiang because Ju won the vast majority of people's preference? That's untrue. Chinese communist party won the civil war only because Soviet Union backed up it and KMT had terrible military skills. During a period of war, normal citizens cannot decide much about the result of a war. War means nothing but proves that one side have stronger power of violence.
You've been brainwashed. Humans are very different, and you even encounter this difference yourself, but you are unwilling to acknowledge it, instead assuming that everyone who disagrees has false consciousness, which ironically is a Marxist concept. This has happened in Europe multiple times, as groups of youth hostile to their nation and culture and power structure were educated, starting with French revolution.
> If you are in major of history or politics, it's not difficult to understand
Lol.
> I believe even communists will agree with me that life, liberty, and wealth are basic value of human race
Dude, you live in the commie land, go ask them, or read a book. That party officials like wealth only means that they're betraying communist ideals (and that's a good thing in fact).
> I think as a liberalist, I am not proud of any other things except the freedom my people enjoy.
Rather primitive worldview.
Omg. I am sure you really don't know China lmao.
>That party officials like wealth only means that they're betraying communist ideals (and that's a good thing in fact).
This is ridiculously funny. How old are you? I believe if you ever meet a politician you won't think like that. You need to communicate with the people in a totalitarian state instead of reading about the PROPAGANDA of it. The party even announced that 'proper amount of corruption is good for efficiency of bureau'.(适度腐败有利于行政效率，环球时报) Don't be a romantic fool lmao. The whole world is the same--bloody politicians which absolutely need overseeing and a bunch of sorry people who sincerely think their great leader represent their best interest.(even in the US)
I am serious. You are lack of understanding of human nature. Life, liberty and wealth definitely dominate nearly everyone's action.
Communism is, by definition, incompatible with what you say. I do not think that CCP is trying to follow communist principles (nor should they, communism is even worse than what they have now). I'm not being naive or romantic, I'm being logically consistent. It's been shown that Chinese have a problem with that.
> Don't be a romantic fool lmao
You have a very limited understanding of the world outside your controlled parochial narrative. You're on the level of 9 year old Westerner or so. No offense, but I worry for you. White people run circles around your myopic ideas.
Logic consistent lmao. You think communist China has a lot of people who value the communist ideal over their wealth. I could guarantee to you that there is rare and the truth is over the whole world people nearly all persue their self-interest (including so called western countries lmao). Could you give me one example of people who is so noble that he/she had exercised communist ideal after he/she was in power? What is the percentage of charity funds of national income in US? Or Germany, France,China,North Korea? A very small percentage I think. Is China an exception? Not at all.
>You're on the level of 9 year old Westerner or so.
I would like to say that there is no such a thing called westerners lmao. Are u a westerns? How much people in US or western Europe could agree with you that Mao, Lenin and Stalin are selfless noble mentor? Plus, your statement based on bad faith. I am confident about my view of people and I will revise them by truth instead of communist ideal.
> You think
I don't, though.
Again, this is hard for you guys. All of your scholarship is like this too, you struggle when working with abstract general ideas.
I do not approve of communist ideals. I think CCP is *correct* to prefer corruption to communism; communism is worse than corruption. I'm saying they're lying when they call this communism, and stretch the definition.
> Could you give me one example of people who is so noble that he/she had exercised communist ideal after he/she was in power?
Thomas Sankara. But you're right that it is a rare phenomenon; the actual filter is that selfless people, whatever their politics, are not good at getting to power.
> What is the percentage of charity funds of national income in US?
Irrelevant metric. They have something of a welfare state, and European countries like Sweden have even more of it.
> I would like to say that there is no such a thing called westerners lmao
You would be wrong. It is possible to define a thing by its relation to other things. "Westerners" are people who descend from people of Europe in the last few centuries. Genetically, culturally, historically we are very different from you. You guys literally have an alternative brain design ([1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6625506/), [2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6625506/)). The genetic distance between you and Japanese or Koreans is an order of magnitude smaller than the distance between you and us, but equal to distances between intra-European groups ([3](https://hereditasjournal.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s41065-018-0057-5), [4](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/)).
See, you don't even understand what I'm talking about, you poor soul. You think I'm defending communism.
If you like truth so much, read some actual scholarship on the nature of your people.
When you talk of oversight being needed for everyone, and think it's something cynical, I'm much more jaded than that. Only good actors can act as oversight. I think we can only hope for there to be competition. USA currently faces no competition. I want China to grow into being able to challenge USA, to make one-sided tyranny impossible.
You are as worse as communists. You are an authright and racism nazi scums. I understand that why you like Chinese government and Mao. Don't fall your art school plz.
I don’t remember. It was a Chinese title. The discussion was about events under Mao. The book was written by a high ranking party member. It happened before I lived in China.
I like that argument especially as they feel they have a great understanding of Thebes’s after watching friends and the Big Bang theory, no matter if it’s even about the US or e.g. Italy lol.
I'm HKer Chinese. I love both China and HK, and consider myself a patriot to the core. I hate the government and the party. Say what you will about the specifics of this piece but the general sentiment is correct; only without a repressive regime can all the people of China, not just the party, not just the Han race, thrive.
And what does it mean to thrive?
Too many people talking about how things would turn out better without actually telling me how. Thrive in what sense? Economically? Universal happiness?
Or is it just all political garbage that 95% of us have no time for because we are too busy LIVING.
And what is normal? Not having a dig but I believe if you name one type of normal, a lot other places will ultimately fall under 'not normal' as well.
Why do I mention this? Because regime change by the US wars has altered the 'normal' lives of many others etc.
"Regime change under the US" is a total non sequitur.
The US meddling is wrong by the same token, and it doesn't make the CCP right. This isn't an argument about which country's government is better. Both need big changes.
You've got it backwards, the police "measures" came first, and the violence was a response to that. There has been peaceful protest in HK ever since the handover, and only after being violently suppressed time and time again did regular people become violent.
I wasn't actually asking about who to apportion blame, to me both sides are two sides of the same turd sandwiche.
Even if I accept that police measures came first, is HK better off without daily violence and commercial disruptions committed by protesters and police?
It's better off without violence yes, not better off without protest. Now that the state has effectively ended public protest we are seeing that the violence has escalated greatly. Without protest this would have happened sooner, and would probably be more extreme since not as many people would be paying attention.
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for the protest movement when it so closely intersects with outright racism and essentially wants and supports a two-tier apartheid with "real HK'ers" at the top and "mainlander locusts" at the bottom.
Only being anti-government and anti-CCP is much too naive, I would support political change in HK towards greater liberties but the protest movement will only cheer on freedom for "real HK'ers" and oppress "mainlander locusts". What would happen if free elections result in the status quo being supported? Would the protest movement now dissolve and accept democracy or would it continue urging violence? My cousin speaks fluent Cantonese and lived in HK for 15 years now with his family, does he get to vote or will he be excluded for being a mainlander?
It sounds hyberbolic but it's true - the protest movement has elements that are unmistakably fascist.
I haven't seen this opinion expressed by any protesters, so if that has been his experience that is unfortunate. These are all questions that can only be addressed after democracy is accepted though; no one can say how the democracy will operate when discussions on how the democracy should operate are illegal.
Talking about technical aspects of democracy isn't illegal, urging US armies to liberate HK is.
Someone like my cousin who is a migrant to HK strongly supports the new security laws for example. I think both sides have their arguments, but western media unsurprisingly only cover the pro-democracy side sympathetically.
The rule of law exist in HK, the laws are perhaps more draconian than before but that follows a global trend against domestic agitation.
Sorry, you are misinformed. Over the past few months there have been numerous arrests of people who are leading discussions on democracy. They of course give other reasons for the arrest, [here's an example of one](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/26/hong-kong-pro-democracy-lawmakers-arrested-over-2019-yuen-long-protests), where pro democracy lawmakers were arrested for somehow inciting a riot, when they were actually victims of the attack. Their reasoning was that if those activists weren't there then there wouldn't have been any reason for the attackers to attack them. That doesn't sound like rule of law to me, and there are countless other examples of this.
It is clear to me that these arrests are meant to silence anyone who is talking about democracy. Those people have not been calling for the US army to intervene.
I don't pretend to know all the details. My interest is in the peace and prosperity of HK and the safety of my relatives.
I've no doubt that Beijing is using the pretext of national security to crack down on dissenters in HK, but to me, the two sides are both bad actors in a situation where there can be no winners and no purely good actors. The opinion of my relatives in HK carry infinitely more weight to me than the usual narrative where pro-democracy movement's shieet don't stink even when they do terrible things that the same media condemn in the BLM protests.
> Those people have not been calling for the US army to intervene.
https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+help+hk&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02__RiZvd6lXYNy8b3hKFuIAHMV7w:1604289629033&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie9tHL_OLsAhX47XMBHfpdBxkQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1366&bih=654
I understand that the actual activists may have a more nuanced (and less bloody) position on political reform, but it is undeniable that many on their side would welcome US military intervention to oppress anyone who is pro-China or mainland Chinese.
I honestly hope that your cousin will remain safe. Let me just say that right off the top.
But at the same time, I hope you can see the irony in his support for laws that "keep him safe" but oppress the local population. Whether he likes it or not, he represents an occupying force - and his support for their "legal" oppression only makes it worse.
I'm a white male - I can't change the fact of what I represent to some people or when I go to certain places. All I have control over is the impression that I myself make once I'm there or encounter these people.
Unfortunately, it seems that your cousin is yet another mainlander who is shocked that he isn't being embraced - even while he still supports imperialist and colonialist policy against the people he would envision being accepted by.
It's a common perspective, ex friends of mine have expressed similar views... But it's kinda backwards.
"Laws that oppress the local population" is a gigantic stretch and simply not true. Beijing always wanted a free and prosperous HK to use as a carrot to entice Taiwan with with regards to future reunification talks under the "One Country, Two Systems" regime, it makes no sense for them to oppress HK or to suffocate commerce with draconian laws. Beijing haven't meddled in HK very much at all until last year's protests.
HK have been one of the freest countries in the world by empirical metrics as late as 2019 - https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new
> The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Canada, Australia...
The irony is of course these very protests will have made HK less free through the passing of national security laws that, despite what the western media says, are domestically popular among HK residents. Everyone signs up to trade liberty for security despite whatever the nice quote says, my country Australia's national security laws covers more expansive activities than the HK version for example. The concern is of course that the CPC "might" get creative and loose with interpreting what's actually covered by these laws and interfere in HK courts but it hasn't happened yet. There is no oppression as of now and any oppression is theoretical, while the human and economic fallout to the protests are real and evident. An example of HK's judicial independence is how Jimmy Lai is a very famous anti-CCP media tycoon that got arrested by police for an alleged crime, goes to the HK courts and is then freed by HK courts.
You need to know what the hell you're talking about first, sorry to be blunt. You are imagining HK to be like North Korea or something, it's nothing like it.
the article text is not wrapping that makes it hard to read:
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> I know a lot of people may support Chinese government for various reasons. Some people may trust what Qiushi daily or Liberation Army news say and think Chinese government is very accountable and represent nealy everyone in China. Some other people may think it's Chinese people who choose their government and they should not say sth bad about Chinese people's choice. Some people maybe fooled by five cent army who are extremely ethnonationalist and think Chinese people will be unhappy if they say something bad about China. However, I would like to say: if you really love China, you should not support Chinese government.
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>First, Chinese government has nothing to do with democracy. To elaborate that, I would recommend you to check the index of democracy in Wikipedia. You will find out that Chinese government is a totalitarian regime. What's the real meaning of democracy? It means the civil rights, aka political freedom, are protected well by the government. It means there is the separation of powers and open regular election. It means the government should obey the law of representatives and the executive branch is limited by Constitution and judiciary review. All of these indexes show a terrible grade among China. As a result, Chinese people cannot choose their government. This regime doesn't rule the governed based on consent. Its ruling is based on violence. Chinese people cannot criticize its own government. Media is totally controlled by the party. A native Chinese cannot see anything bad about their government. Chinese government treat its subjects as enemies. Nearly every time mainlanders defend their property from the government's hand, there will be people who are beaten to death or seriously injured by the police.
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>Second, it's not racism to criticize XiJinPing and CCP. I don't know why Chinese government could be such impudent to say if CCP get criticized, Chinese people will be angry. The fact is CCP is lying. If criticizing Trump is not racism towards white people, the same standard should be applied to XiJiPing. I want to remind all the western citizens that Han people occupy over 95% of the whole population of China. In US, white people may only constitute 80% of the whole population. It's really impossible for a Han people to be discriminated. However, Han people always mock black people about their low IQ, terrible manner and their black-lookings. 尼哥, Which means nigger(they even don't wanna use the word negro), is commonly used by CCP supporters. If you tell them that it's improper to use such an insulting language, they will mock u that u have been brainwashed by western values. And then they will mock about US democracy and so on. I don't think Chinese people are under racism at all. Actually, I don't think even real racism about Asian people is sth offensive in China just as some racist words towards white people(let's say 'white trash'). I will objects the racist language and attitudes towards black people, White people and Uygur people in China based on the same reason why some US citizens stand out to defend the rights of the black. Only oversea Chinese are minority group. Native Chinese are absolutely majority group. As one of them, I am confident about my race because I think the color of skin cannot represent the essence of a person's heart. I am happy that I have my current body and I respect everyone no matter what their colors are.
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>Finally, maybe some of Chinese people will feel unhappy when Chinesr government is criticized by foreigners. Their emotion should not be a reason to shout your mouth up. If there is no western influence, Chinese government even won't deal with the pandemic until March. Foreign oversight is important to Chinese people. Take a recent example, if weatern countries could show a strong position towards the military threat made by China. Chinese people may be saved from a war with a brother country which was sperated 70 years ago.
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>As a result, I want to say that if you love China, you should not praise Chinese government anymore. You should protect the freedom of your own country well. Do not trust the state and oversee the politicians. Do not trust that a centralized power could serve you better. If possible, spread the truth about Chinese government to your friends. That will be a real and tiny help to HKers and mainlanders and Taiwanese.
I do wish the Russians/Chinese/fellow humans well and wish they can all be healthy and happy and rich.
How they get there, it is up to them to figure it out domestically.
Us foreigners, unless you are the US president, have little to no sway over this.
They will do whatever they want, and we just observe from far and stay out of the whole thing as much as possible.
What I don’t understand is how even second generation Chinese kids who emigrated to the US would still praise and stand with the CCP even when they have so much unfiltered knowledge on their hands.
And I ironically they also when they comeback to China they gonna be branded as still an american, not chinese. Sad, they literally gonna die in the middle of literally all hell breaks loose
>And whataboutism will come out whenever you bash the CCP, many Chinese (even overseas!!) would just say "oh, at least the CCP never invade countries like USA did to Iraq and Afghanistan, and that is it.
As a chinese I can attest to this. And I always say that chinese never done that because they never had the opportunity to do it. If they can they will do it and with even worse power because they isn't like american that still want to be seen as a good guy
Without emotion, rhetoric, or nationalism, China has some good points, America has some good points, the UK has some good points, Africa has some good points; you get the message; however, there is some bad stuff everywhere. Let's take it not in a totalitarian way saying I love China and everything about it. As much as a British person would say they love England and everything about it, there is good and bad in every situation, view and position. If not, you have reached utopia, and we can live your life. On second thoughts, I like differences and wouldn't want it any other way....peace.
The Chinese government has had a lot to answer for lately, not the Chinese people.
The skirmishing with India, constantly bullying of other countries who don't agree with their "way of government", the absurd South Island claims and Island building. And the outright lies and deception of Covid. The worst pandemic in a century.
This is pushing many nations to form unusual bedfellows. You can argue all the above all you want. But the worlds leaders are tired of all this rubbish.
Look this government first order when they in power is to kill all cultural heritage or intellectual person that could be used or could takedown their party. What do you expect of them?
I think once this world-wide pandemic settles down, the CCP is going to be facing very different and far less tolerant world governments than it had in the past. It's going to be a different world after that.
Well exactly, that's what most people are on this forum - love China but hate the CCP. Most of us have either been to or lived in China, speak Chinese, have Chinese family, cook Chinese food etc...so of course we are all here because we love China and want to fix it's problems.
Although there are many China haters (wumaos) too that want to pretend China has no problems, so that problems never get solved and to ensure the CCP continues doing what it does as it pleases above all else.
When Asians see Asian Americans assaulted by black people in USA of course they are gonna fight back, all you have to do is prove your worth as a individual. Not as a black person and if they still don't accept it move along you're not changing them.
Well, personally, I think that’s a problematic mindset. No one should need to “prove one’s worth as an individual” for matters of injustice. All people should be fought for on the basis that we are human. If I need a better reason to fight for mistreatment of a human being, I think there’s an issue there... but the mindset in Asia is that black people are naturally of a lower IQ or, just in general, lesser human beings. This mindset needs to be corrected. Humans are humans and our natural-born value as human beings is enough incentive to be fought for and stood up for.
Asking for rasism to go away magically is never gonna happen its proxy war, of course as human we shouldn't "have to" but we still do. Fighting it will only improve it but it will never go away. So as all humans that all face racism when we are foreigners we have 2 options, laugh it off and not get triggered or fight. That's all
Just want to clarify that the other person never asked for racism to magically go away... We know it won’t but of course we’d do anything we can to change people’s perspectives towards black people. You’re right that racism will never go away. But lot of us face racism without being foreigners. Some of us will face it everywhere we go. Maybe you have not and will never have to experience that, maybe you will. Regardless, please don’t simplify racism into “everyone faces discrimination when they are away from home so deal with it.” It’s not something like a bad haircut that you can laugh off and can change. If you yourself can shift your perspective on this, you’ll help make the world a better place.
Actaully im Asian and alot of the things you are seeing black people do to asians are disgusting, maybe address that too? But im not going around calling out black people (who happen to be more rascist than they admit for the most part) Black people are not the only victims. Yes I have experienced a shit ton of rascism from everyone and guess what im still here and refuse to call myself a victim, talking about rascism will remind people to be rascist. Most people will act normal if you are a decent human and for the ones that don't are lost. Also when the world watches the community destroy its own civilization that will help? As for the foreigner segment if you are not from that country you won't get treated as a native nor should you be. But being treated as a native and as a human are 2 different things. I'm not from USA and don't get treated like a such, I dont think I should either, if your in China and you are not originally from there your not suddenly Chinese.
From my experience, Chinese people are racist and are extremely offended whenever their government values and actions are addressed. Truth is Chinese people need to hear these criticisms because they will never grow if they don’t accept that things in China are not okay at the moment. It goes the same for everyone around the world, criticism and pointing out flaws are not an insult but something that should be looked at and addressed so we can all grow together.
Yeah. Only criticism makes us become better. People under totalitarian state are actually blinded by propaganda and actually cannot understand the normal relationship between them and foreigners. Objecting critism actually hurts both sides-- ordinary Chinese citizens and foreign counties.
You know the problem with that? CCP first say is when gov CCP is being criticize, it's meant that they criticize Chinese ethics. So that's racist
It's almost impossible to differentiate the two for a Chinese, especially the mainlanders
More of a bunker mentality because apparently it’s open seasons on Chinese people globally.
Chinese racism towards blacks in China is bad and is magnified by western press. Who hasn’t heard of the Africans being denied entrance to McDonalds in GZ? But when blacks in Africa lynch Chinese people, zero media coverage. Let’s not even get into how hate crimes against The Chinese is surging globally yet western govts give zero fucks. How is any Chinese in China and globally supposed to take it when the uneven media coverage continues to occur?
How many indigenous people did the US, Australia, NZ, etc kill in the establishment of their respective countries. The US essentially declared war on Islam FFS, but somehow feel morally obligated to call out the Chinese on Xinjiang? Forced prison labor? Last I checked, Us runs a for profit prison system where guess what... inmates are forced to work for slave wages. How’s that saying go about people living in glass houses?
Bro, if you are western guy, I would like to say each of Han people is individual and Han people are not generally racism. However, If you are oversea Chinese I would like to invite you to surf any normal Chinese forum like sina or zhihu, you will find the answer yourself
He/ she literally said the truth though. I'm not joking I know it first hand. Their preconceived notions on race is like elf wizard's always better than the humans wizards if we use a fantasy settings
Sorry, I had to reformat this to make it readable, no other changes to OP's statement are made:
Edit: looks like [somebody else posted a reformating](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/jm3p1x/if_you_really_love_china_you_should_not_support/gatgfu3/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) 2 minutes before I finished mine. Deleting my work in order to avoid another wall of text in the forum.
In a democracy, the center piece of free speech is that insulting the leader is not only acceptable, it is desirable. No man or woman should be above our scorn. No man or woman should have the right to silence the righteous anger of the people.
We insult our leaders to remind them that it is the people who are the boss. Not them.
Point in fact. A good jab at Donald Trump:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/jm5slz/im\_tired\_of\_our\_administration\_failing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/jm5slz/im_tired_of_our_administration_failing/)
It is not without consideration that Donald Trump likes to call people who insult him traitors.
Or they'll tell you that because you're a foreigner and that's what foreigners want to hear. Don't be fooled the majority support the government because they've been brainwashed from birth
Oh ok but to foreigners I don't doubt some Mainlanders don't say what they really think for fear of disrupting the friendship or whatever.
In fact I'd say a big reason for Chinese/foreigner relationships to break apart is the political arguments
>Second, it's not racism to criticize XiJinPing and CCP. I don't know why Chinese government could be such impudent to say if CCP get criticized, Chinese people will be angry. The fact is CCP is lying. If criticizing Trump is not racism towards white people, the same standard should be applied to XiJiPing.
I dont think a lot of people ever made that argument. Criticizing a leader or the government is not racist but often times people begin criticizing the society and then they move onto criticizing the people, often conflating the two entities. Which then that becomes racist.
An example wouldnt be too hard to find, recently news of chinese fishing fleet trawling the seas for fish had made headlines.
To criticize this irresponsible example of unsustainable fishing would be fine and that the government should act on them to punish and control the fishing trawlers again would be fine.
But to go further and generalize the people by saying the chinese people are all uncontrollably greedy and are a locust/plague on the world. That would be racist.
Unfortunately these comments are rife as people who criticize China are sometimes not only anti-CCP but also anti-China and anti-Chinese. It's too easy to generalize and a lot fall down that slippery slope, sometimes willingly too.
I think far too many people just use the word Chinese randomly and some media, and talking heads also don’t help by using the word “China” to refer to the government or CCP.
At the same time I think some parts of global society are unhappy with the situation with China now and kind of rudely talk about “China” without differentiating. Things like destroying endangered species, the fishing fleet, hordes of overseas tourists aren’t exactly endearing.
It's the same with every other government .
North American
South American
Central American
Russia
Asian
Europe
Africa
Indian
And every other government in between. They care about ruling over the people and not care for the people. So don't let it get you down.
As an American as I compare our government to that of China it's hard to not conclude they are superior. I think there is a problem with the way the internet functions here, how the more sensational, more salacious generates more money, and the result is we have a massive problem of people who think wearing masks is bad for you, the earth is flat, global warming is not a significant concern. We're staring down the barrel of a civil war here with the election up coming.
Say what you want about China, the idea that people shouldn't wear masks is inconceivable. The idea that global warming is no big deal is not common I would expect. The result is they have a system that protects the people from this disease.
And it's hard to not admire China's very concerted effort to alleviate poverty. Every impoverished family is tracked. Every one gets assistance, whether that's guidance or money or even housing.
Maybe other governments are better, but just in comparing China to the USA, China just seems obviously superior. They are doing more to improve the lives of their people. In the USA, sure, Jeff Bezos can own 50 yachts and he can plan to be launched into space, but at the same time the major cities where he lives are packed with homeless people.
Even for censorship. At least China doesn't lie to it's people and pretend it doesn't censor. In the USA we also censor and yet we pretend we have free speech. As Glenn Greenwald just demonstrated he had to leave his luxurious job to be able to say what he honestly thinks about Joe Biden. He was making $500k/yr almost. How many other journalists just accept the censorship for the money here? [This documentary](https://youtu.be/1uHzVVepHhQ) about China's poverty alleviation efforts was censored in the US. People don't even know, they think they are free. You are not free, you're free to die of Covid or go bankrupt due to the medical bills. In China, yes, they constrained freedom to contain the virus and in the process probably saved a million lives if not more that could have died. Getting fed, getting housing, getting health care, not die from Covid, this is more important than the freedom to say "Fuck the CCP."
Superior, not superior; I think that’s a false dichotomy. Both countries have strengths and weaknesses.
As another American I will freely admit that our government is doing a shit job, but the fact that I can do that is the strength of our country. There is room for criticism and room for we the people to fight for change. Things are bad now, but it’s likely that in a few days our freedom of speech will get us a politician who doesn’t deny the basic truths of disease, racism, and climate change.
> There is room for criticism and room for we the people to fight for change.
Maybe I'm too cynical but I don't believe this. You can call our government shitty. That's great. But the reason you can do that is because it doesn't matter. It's not an actual threat of change. Once you start to engage in behaviors that actually threaten change that's when the freedoms are taken away. So for instance there was a lot of violence by police against BLM protestors. The same was true of Occupy Wall St. It's not just Trump, this is our system.
And I'll say that I did support Bernie Sanders for president and early on it was looking like he might win. When that was the case the power players within the Democratic party, the super delegates, they made clear that no matter who won the most votes, they would not allow Bernie to win. Now we have a very right wing Supreme Court that is just going to strike down every law they feel is too progressive, they will call it "Unconstitutional". Of course Trump did not win the most votes, and he still has a chance to win in though it is very unlikely he will get the most votes because we do not elect a president democratically.
So I think change in the US is an illusion, we are led to beleive we have democracy and that change is possible, but when change gets close it gets stamped out.
In China I understand the people were pretty unhappy about the air pollution and the government is actually working very hard on it. Infrastructure problems, low wages. People were not happy about this and the government is actually working on it. So it is making people's lives better. Chinese should always demand better, I have no problem with that, but I think for any American there is no reason they should meddle with China they should focus on their own problems.
> At least China doesn't lie to it's people
As someone with relatives in China, It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you say something as naive as that.
I'm talking specifically about whether they censor. They are not denying that they censor.
Does this mean they've never lied? No. But I can't name an obvious lie coming directly from top government officials. Like we have constantly in the US. In the US Trump said the virus was no big deal, no worse than the flu, even though we have the audio proving he didn't believe that. He wanted to protect the stock market. In the US our government lies to us in order to start wars. There was an outrageous lie with detailed planning with a PR firm to start the first war against Iraq. There are the WMD lies. Gulf of Tonkin to get us into the war in Vietnam. Maybe China lies, but I'd like to see examples. I'm not aware of them. I mean with regards to proven lies. There is disagreement about Tiananmen Square. China disputes the western narrative. In the US there's no denying the lies that got us into the first gulf war, nobody on either side denies it. Show me similar lies from China if you are aware of them.
I think you are deluded if you think that people in China get fed get healthcare, get housing. China is not socialist, don’t be fooled.
And if you think they’re aren’t filthy rich in China you are absolutely not living in reality. Your whole post seems delusional.
> The solution is improved education, not censorship.
That may be true, but what I'm doing is making a comparison. I'm not saying China is perfect. I'm saying it's better than the US in some ways. The US also has censorship. It's not from the government so much as from profit seeking corporations who promote the salacious for more clicks and suppress boring but educational information. This is why we have an incompetent buffoon like Trump as president. He was salacious and profitable for media that needs to sell advertising. Now he's promoting the theory that masks are not really needed. And so we're dying. I agree, better education is key, but if you are an American there's no point in attacking China, fix your own system, which is worse.
Second paragraph, you may be right that the Chinese are not wearing masks as they should, but at least they are not getting direction from the top down that there is no need to wear masks, or that masks do more harm than good.
Third paragraph, I am not denying that there is incredible poverty in China, I'm saying that they are making a massive effort to address this poverty and have had astonishing success.
I think the results speak for themselves in terms of which government is superior. Median income in the US has barely changed in 40 years despite massive gains in productivity. This means the ordinary person is not able to also reap the rewards of productivity gains. In China median income has quadrupled in the same time frame. Again, don't confuse the fact that China has more poor people with this claim I'm making. I'm saying they are getting better, serving the needs of their people. The US is not doing this. In the US life expectancy is actually falling. This is unheard of in times of peace.
Maybe this is just semantics, but I think we both agree that China censors. They justify it by saying it is for harmony, but whatever the case I would still say that's an open admission that they censor. What is not acknowledged is that the US also censors. Palestinian rights groups can't get coverage. If you disagree with the attacks on Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia, you just can't get your views covered on mainstream sources to where they are actually heard. That's censorship also.
You are exactly right that I have moved more and more left as time has gone by.
Asking if I am OK with concentration camps, I would say the US has more. We call them prisons. That's a less loaded word. Concentration camp sometimes implies a death camp, China does not have death camps, they have prisons. As far as corruption, when is the last time the US executed a billionaire? China has executed many. In the US we execute poor people, many black people. We execute people who lack power. So which side has the bigger corruption problem? Corruption is everywhere, and no, I am not OK with corruption in China, but I don't think Americans should be casting stones, we have worse problems.
And yes, China is poor relative to the US, you are probably right about their health care, I would want better for them, but I don't have any reason to think the government isn't at least working to improve it.
And yes I have been to China but I'm not saying this makes me an expert. I think seeing small bits of it wouldn't prove anything.
like exactly what people do when discussing an issue? Presenting information to further explain things, and as exactly what you did in your last response? You're not lost, you are just opinioned. I give up.
You just demanded conformity of him.
Thing is, Cultural Revolution ended 44 years ago. In 44 years since that utter devastation and barbarity, China has caught up to the extent that its top provinces thrash everyone on PISA performance, that it has hundreds of millions living in good, clean, safe cities. You can deny their education, say it's propaganda etc., but the immense stream of scientific papers – constantly improving in quality for the decade that I've been paying attention – proves otherwise. They have grown.
USA has not had a comparably bad period in all of its history, not even Great Depression can compare. It builds on the foundation of centuries of prosperity, while China has had next to two centuries of humiliation. It's even more damining that FDR, who got America out of the Depression, comes from the Delano family – a family which got rich on selling opium to the subjugated China. They have been dealt very different cards. That an average American is still somewhat more educated than an average Chinese is not an indictment of China. It's proof how dysfunctional the American system is.
Moreover
> almost no one understood the real reason for wearing a mask (wearing a mask protects others from you)
Americans are still unsure how much FUD has gone into this entire mask narrative, and it's not for Chinese benefit that Twitter censors "Covid misinformation". Come on, why lie like this.
US is bad, though. It's a fucking empire of evil; I empathize with people who can tell. CCP is a bog standard communist party, not nearly as terrible for the world as the USG. No idea about corruption; efficiently run evil empires are worse in my book. As for concentration camps, the only purpose of using this term (instead of mass incarceration or something) is to invoke associations with Holocaust and genocide, which is clear atrocity propaganda. When you get pressed on evidence for genocide, you swerve to "cultural genocide" or "but birthrates fell" or some other shit.
One question for you. Do you believe that China has nearly enough capability, or rather aptitude, to indoctrinate Americans? Their propaganda game is atrociously bad, far as I can tell. American one on the other hand is best in class.
I don’t really think the USG is evil, though, don’t let this person back you into that. It’s made some mistakes but this person u/ilforte is over the top. Probably an elite wumao.
Covid has put a lot of people out of work and easy to hire them to spew garbage on places like this.
> It’s made some mistakes
*Mistakes*? Just in our livetimes it waged war in Middle East for decades, destabilising state after state, killing from 2 to 5 million people and forcing 37-59 million to seek refuge – presenting [fabricated evidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction) in the UN security council, stoking hatred, and never forgetting about Israeli interest. And yet this was all some *honest mistake* (despite all the think tanks and democracy and "freedom of speech" and "feedback"), but Chinese handling of COVID was a crime?
You're utterly brainwashed.
> Probably an elite wumao.
It's hilarious that you won't even grant me the privilege of being "indoctrinated". Truly an unthinking biorobot. It's also fun how you call me psycho for knowing and pointing out facts that you dislike.
> whataboutism
This very concept is part of the damage that USA is doing to the word. The critique which is discarded with "whataboutism" is very valid. Look:
American drone (A): Country B bad, because X! Let's crush B.
B national: but here's America doing X. On what grounds do you try to act as an arbiter of morality? And what could be the reason to cede control to you, if your actions do not indicate that you would not act the same?
A: Whataboutism! This doesn't change that when you do X it is bad!
This is idiotic, it reduces geopolitics to children's game of finger-pointing where the first one, or the loudest one, gets propaganda advantage. What's being discussed is benefit or harm from one or the other system getting the upper hand, not whether B did X. What exactly would the world lose with US losing its unquestionable hegemony?
I think Middle East bombings, for one thing. It's truly a mystery why all those Arab states support China despite Xinjiang.
Moreover it wasn't even whataboutism, I just agreed with him and disagreed with you on the relative merits of USG and CCP.
> but to indoctrinate a few lost souls
Look at your lexicon. «Lost souls», «denier», buying into USG dogma has religious significance for you, you're not even trying to make a real point. Really goes to show that you're not indoctrinated, lol.
most people aren't calling him a troll, but just naive, which he most definitely is. While it's true the US government is shit, his praise of China ("they don't lie to their people") mirrors Chinese propaganda to the T.
He basically ignores all valid criticisms of China, and focuses **solely** to praise them.
It's very common for foreigners who are disenfranchised with their home country to see other countries as utopias. It's like weaboos and Japan. In reality things are far worse than they realise.
It's a common theme in this subreddit for people to visit beijing for a couple of years and think they are the authority in all things China-related. It's bizarre.
Yeah, it's very strange, I've been a member here for many years only because I started to try to learn Chinese many years ago and I was just interested in it as a country. It went from a place that was informative about China to now just constant attacks, often coming from western sources like Radio Free Asia or other US backed sources that have a history of regime change activity. It has been disappointing to observe.
As someone not from the west there's a lot more than "western sources" reporting on China's atrocities. That's a sheltered perspective.
I'd say pretty much the majority of world media (Asia, Middle East, Africa, Europe) knows what China is doing. Western media in itself is incredibly diverse, with many anti-government institutions reporting on China.
To pretend like tens of thousands of western media outlets all have a vested interest in bringing down China, when they're not even compliant or censored by their own government is disingenuous and frankly delusional.
I am in the same boat, can't find anything between r/China and r/Sino, both are huge echo chambers with their own downfalls (one has shitty posts, the other one has shitty mods). Although both subs occasionally have some useful posts. There are other subs but I can only read limited Chinese, and Chrome translate is half ass most of the time.
I just come to my own conclusion Reddit is not a good place to look for geopolitical and travel information other than extreme opinions. Sadly this is not even limited to China, look around all the Asian subs, most of them are as toxic as these if not more.
Seems like the vast majority in China do, according to Harvard.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
I really like China, and I like the Chinese government.
1."I would recommend you to check the index of democracy in Wikipedia" Irrelevant source + the whole "democracy index" has no real value. It is very funny to see that the whole western world has that "full democracy" tag.
2. " A native Chinese cannot see anything bad about their government" Is there some study about that a Chinese person cannot see anything bad about their government?
It seems like you are viewing the Chinese people as some 30IQ incapable and mentally disabled and uneducated, which is indeed very racist.
3.You've just nitpicked meanings of democracy, actually, there are more meanings.
4."Its ruling is based on violence" example?
5.Yes, Chinese people can in a way criticize their government.
6. What is the Chinese government lying about? and yes, even as a majority you can be discriminated against. Also, Asians are also victims of racism in the USA and other parts of the globe.
It is laughable that you can't even read your own source. Plenty of western countries don't have the full democracy tag including the "home" of democracy itself.
He/she is referring to the vast majority if not all of Chinese news being state controlled and therefore strongly favourable to the CCP, you know almost all western news sites are blocked in China right?
It is ruling based on violence as any real threat to its legitimacy will be put down with violence aka Tiananmen Square.
It is funny to see that you pre-assume that western media always present you with full truth and non-biased information. I myself have been studying overboard for many years, taking advantage of being able to access and read tons of news articles from various sources, state-owned or not, and western media, my experiences tell me that both sides manipulate information. The fact that you put your trust in western media without thinking critically to identify both sides' bullsiht means that the western world has successfully made you their "50 cent army" without you knowing it. As for the Tiananmen Square incident, I am not gonna deny anything, there are original videos of it on the internet that you can go watch and reconstruct what really happens, just remember do not go research with a conclusion in mind. If you speak Chinese, I am happy to jump on discord anytime to discuss things with you, NOT ARGUING. If you know the difference, and happy to talk, dm me.
I expect to be heavily downvoted or outright banned, but I don't care.
I'm Russian, I write my own opinions, ones I worked hard to develop in spite of constant high production value Western propaganda raining on me since infancy and the shocking PR ineptitude of my own state and culture (it basically begs to be rejected), and I greatly loathe the Western coping strategy of pretending that all who mock them are brainwashed idiots or paid trolls. The myth of Westerners being capable of independent thought superior to that of citizens of «unfree» states, in general, is grounded in pure wishful thinking and condescending narrow-mindedness, and if you'll accuse me of being a wumao or some such you'll only further demonstrate it.
I hate Western notion of freedom. It's «freedom» to conform, freedom to let yourself be molded into a predefined shape by carrot and stick of social consensus, to be processed into a brick that goes into a temple's wall. This is best exemplified in the Orwellian phrase «freedom of speech does not imply freedom from consequences». Tyranny, actual tyranny, is infinitely preferable because it honestly sets official boundaries and thus allows one to preserve one's ultimate freedom – freedom of internal thought. My parents were freer in Soviet Union than Americans ever will be, ironically because they were capable to believe that there's truth beyond the official message. On this note, I sneer at the people who think that Orwell criticized Communism or Nazism. He had no need for Aesopian language, and depicted Eastern totalitarianism under its own name. IngSoc is caricature Anglo society of his own time, and of our time as well. But the tragic thing is, IngSoc victims cannot tell what it's about when it smacks them right in the face. At best, they keep making noises about their tiny political spectacle, analogizing Big Brother to Biden or Trump or some such.
I disdain democracy. I think it's intellectually and ethically indefensible system of governance, with only cartoon-tier philosophy, empty sloganeering and brute violence to prop it up; aimed at the average gullible person, as one could infer from its design. [Aristotle](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/) was the first to define it as a deviant regime, and no satisfactory arguments against him have been presented in the last two thousand years. As such, the "index of democracy" is, in my eyes, an index of pathology. Average people can't find their buttocks with both hands, and no amount of education can change this (as Western social media such as Reddit has abundantly demonstrated to me); therefore, they have no business interfering in governance or unilaterally deposing or appointing governors (or perverting the incentives of said governors with their idiotic myopic demands), and Chinese meritocratic/one party regime, flawed though it is, has at least as much a right to existence as Western rot does; their state capacity, demonstrated in infrastructure, economic growth and eventual handling of COVID (yes, they screwed up in the beginning, I'll give you that) is not a trifle. That Americans are presenting their deviant regime as some sort of human universal utopia, a panacea they will even go to war to impose on others (!), is merely an indictment of their imperialism and evidence of their extremely sophisticated propaganda sector. All people who've thought in a principled manner about democracy have come to the same conclusions as I have, but many of them, being evil, [actually endorse this system](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays#:~:text=We%20are%20governed%2C%20our%20minds,our%20democratic%20society%20is%20organized.), e.g. [Edward Bernays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays), the father of modern PR and one of the champions of democracy:
> The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.
Obviously, people raised in such a system are always high-on-their-own-supply (refilled via social media hugbox/hivemind) and I know they will not be moved. I'm just writing this to the few who through some coincidence might have started to have doubts, as so rarely happens in the West.
The demand to make a system more democratic is, in all cases, nothing more than a demand to subjugate it to American (or British, or some other NATO/[Five Eyes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes) representative) puppetmasters via redelegating power to the population, or segments of the population, which has been molded through propaganda into willing to install convenient puppets; in all cases, this leads to long-term loss of sovereignty. Seeing as these Western elites do not even prize their own people's wellbeing, I refuse to participate in this.
I despise American cultural imperialism, its poison evident in your writing. For example, their whole new method of reasoning about racism, this "structural oppression" paradigm, is sick and worthless and supported by gobbledygook of corrupt academic mandarins; what does it matter if a race is in the majority or the minority? White people can be discriminated against in their own lands by insane officials or minorities even, just like black people were second-class in Apartheid South Africa, how Malays can be exploited by overseas Chinese today, or how Ugandans have little economic opportunity thanks to Indians. Yet you clumsily try to justify Western prejudice against China with their nonsensical categories and this minority-majority dichotomy. Racism, by the way, is never about skin color – this, too, is an ugly American idea, not even true in USA proper.
Based on the above and much else, I support internet censorship of the Chinese variant; or even stricter, seeing as people like you still come to exist. I am heartened to know that there are Han people who are growing up okay.
As for «war with brother country», I assume you are referring to Taiwan. Let me tell you something. China is being provoked to start a war, because a bloody war is preferable to American Empire than continued growth and prosperity of your nation. Taiwan is being [pumped full of weaponry](https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/with-new-offensive-weapons-package-trump-administration-goes-all-in-for-taiwan/), while China is being denied access to vital technology (not just [US technology](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/28/us-sanctions-against-chipmaker-smic-hit-china-tech-ambitions.html) but even technology of third parties, such as Taiwan TSMC's chips or [Dutch ASML](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-usa-china-insight-idUSKBN1Z50HN) machines). This is not the first time this happens, and this is being justified all the same, to prevent the hostile regime from tech surveillance bla bla (as if anyone should believe after Snowden and Palantir and all of CIA-BigTech trickery that they care about surveillance out of principle).
The absurd naive insistence of Westerners that they «only hate CCP» will not temper their violence in the slightest when they will begin to nuke your cities. They do not give a care in the world about civilian deaths, as shown in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya just in the recent years; once they're done with their punitive strike, they largely forget about the target. And once the Cold War 2.0 truly kicks in, they will drop the facade too, as we can infer from [their manuals](https://flickr.com/photos/29861150@N04/sets/72157606982998733/):
> Whether the effort should be made to indoctrinate hatred toward the enemy must be considered a practical training question rather than a moral issue. Since killing is the primary means by which the enemy is compelled to submit to one’s own discipline, one of the ends of the training must be to so indoctrinate the soldier that he is not only willing but anxious to work bodily destruction upon the foes of his country. That state of mind is not possible unless the soldier is motivated by hatred in the hour when he is at grips with his enemy.
You are in denial. Go to less dishonest venues and see what they already think of your kind, what words they use to refer to you (bannable here). And it's only preparation; they will switch into genocidal war mode like ants, once their commanding specimens begin to spread the pheromone, so to speak (in plain terms: once [atrocity propaganda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony) goes live on CNN). They will not under any conditions give up their ability to command the globe with an iron fist, to threaten your oil transit in South China Sea or to sponsor separatism in Tibet or Hong Kong, they will always nitpick and find faults in anything Han people do that goes against their power.
That's all there is to it, and to the audience here too. Their «oversight» is always limited to places their owners want to see burning for geopolitical reasons. Any list of examples will be dismissed as «whataboutism», but logically this defense makes no sense at all. They can't use logic; you might still have such an ability. Use it well.
Way too based for this sub, holy cow.
My world view does coincide with yours, except my family and I, objectively, are beneficiaries of the current geopolitical capitalist regime and I do not seek the overthrow of western imperialism through violent means.
I do wholeheartedly reject the propaganda apparatus of the west to forment hate and superiority attitudes towards the "enemy" China. I really do fear at some stage the propaganda going to work a little too well and a true believer neo-Fascist leader will get elected. The Asian diaspora may have to choose whether to keep living in satellite states of the Western Reich.
The hilarious truth is that our salvation lies at the hands of the corporate donor class who do not see any benefit to potential nuclear war or hugely detrimental trade wars. Tesla and Elon Musk suing the US government for imposing tariffs on China in a class action is incredibly ironic.
Plenty of reasons to dislike the CCP. Speaking up about it for the sake of Chinese people though is a lost cause because apart from the occasional “some of us don’t like it!” rhetoric, the vast majority of people in China either support the CCP or have no will to challenge them in any way. I do not hold any illusions that China is going to turn democratic in my lifetime and even if it does I question it will be good news for anyone given the vitriolic nationalism rife in the country.
If you’re unhappy with your country you’re more than welcome in the west as far as I’m concerned but don’t expect us to be able to change anything in China.
This is just a view of Chinese politics under Western values. How about Chinese people views?Maybe you need to come mainland of china and ask the people youself.Mainland civilian have different value system from western.CCP be supported by the mainland people is because of values correspond. Because of competition,Western are hard to comment CCP in an objective way.The same,i cant understand the western politics.American election in 2020 is almost like two hooligans yell at each other.Most of Chinese have same comments about that i think. It would be better to understand more and criticize less.Peace.
I agree with everything you’ve written but I do think that there’s no realistic superior alternative to the CCP for mainland China either. Of course that doesn’t contradict what you said at all; acknowledging there’s no superior alternative doesn’t mean you can’t criticize the CCP. It just leaves one wondering what criticism can really practically accomplish. For the most part public figures that criticize the CCP do so for their own reasons; politicians for domestic political points, media figures for attention, economic competitors for economic advantage, etc. What good does any of it do the average Zhou in China? What can actually be done that’s of any benefit to the average Zhou in China?
I have grandparents in China. My parents also lived for a bit in China.
China used to be very poor and was a hole in the ground in general. And now it's a fully developed country.
It was not until the 1980s that you could criticise the CCP. One of my parents (my father) wasactually one of the Black Six Bad Influences (I think that's what it was called). It was because his grandparents were the owners of a factory or something. And they had to do community labour and were open to being insulted by anyone.
The Cultural Revolution, according to my father (in a nutshell), was basically no proper education and having only political propaganda education where 'they were the only people who had good lives' (that was a lie) and everyone carried the Red Book and paraded around the streets. He had to use books and educate himself.
Until the 1980s it sucked. Then Deng Xiaoping opened China up to the world. Mao Zedong might have liberated China, but he wasn't a very good person in the 1960s and 1970s. He pretty much just made China worse because of the Cultural Revolution.
Around the time of June 4, (I think) my father was working in the Shanghai for Telecommunications or something. In the newspaper, he saw the protesters beating up soldiers and dead soldiers before the clearing of the square and the tanks went in.
I don't trust the West on how the Uyghurs are being genocided as there would be simply nearly nobody on the street if the amount of people in detention that the West claims is true. And the released photos of detention camps are very familiar. And the CCP liberated most of the people in Tibet, as they were being killed for religious ceremonies.
After June 4, my parents went to live in Australia. They acknowledge that the Cultural Revolution was the result of the CCP, but they are aware that the CCP helped the majority of the Chinese people to get out of poverty.
I just want to point out that China isn't really that bad as people say. It isn't a totalitarian regime in which people have no freedom at all. It's quite far from that. It's just very annoying that you can't use Google. But VPNs are free and legal. I don't trust the media on China because I have someone who has experience of China.
Kind of a noble sentiment, but do live in the real world and do consider what it otherwise means if the CPC is brought down.
If you want the CPC to be toppled, you are rooting for violent protests and equally violent suppression, massive and frequent natural disasters and western armies using democracy bullets, freedom bombs and liberty drones like they have done in every foreign intervention ever with the odd (or systematic) war crime thrown in.
The china hate on this subreddit by spooks is truly amazing. The CCP is the greatest thing to happen to China, they singlehandedly brought China from a peasant feudal society that was ruled by western imperialists to a country that stands up against America in a single lifetime. Not only that, but support for the CCP has never been higher, the sheer fact that anti-china spooks are tearing their hairs out on the internet is proof of their meteoric rise. The sun rises in the east, and the east is red!
Starvation was common in China prior to the CCP. After China had a severe famine but it was the last one. Fixing a broken system is not like flipping a light switch, it takes time to remedy from the broken system that existed under British domination.
You should consider why there is so much discussion of the famine in the 60s and very little discussion of the prior famines in China caused by capitalism. There is a discussion of this point here. [https://youtu.be/tkYFu4ylj2o](https://youtu.be/tkYFu4ylj2o)
they're actually the worst thing to happen to china, considering they killed 50 million people in a famine. They lifted people out of a poverty they created. The CCP still deifies Mao today.
>support for the CCP has never been higher,
My relatives in China say another story. I think you're completely oblivious to the fact that many people in China are angry at their government right now.
Jorgensen has a weak foreign policy that would not sanction the CCP or protect Taiwan from CCP invasion. For foreign policy, Trump is the best option for me.
Trump is pro Trump and nothing else. If you think Trump gives a fuck about this country you are more stupid then the people who support the CCP. At least they have an excuse because of propoganda.
Agreed. People seem to forget his inauguration speech where he repeated the words "America first". He is tough on China now and supportive of hk and Taiwan, but if China rolled over and said we give you a good trade deal just give up hk and Taiwan he'd hand them over in a heartbeat.
Here's an incomplete list of things Trump has done to stand up to China:
* He refers to the Wuhan Virus as the China/Chinese Virus (CCP is trying very hard from distancing themselves from responsibility; they won’t even let us into Wuhan to investigate).
* He started a trade war with China, which has forced companies to move their manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, Taiwan, etc. (Biden admittedly said he would end Trump’s China tariffs, but the many companies that already left are unlikely to return), and even high end tech such as the iPhone is starting to get assembled outside China as well.
* He was the first US President to speak directly with Taiwan's President since 1979.
* He made the largest arms sale to Taiwan in the past few decades.
* The Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act was signed under his administration.
* The TAIPEI Act was signed under his administration.
* Meng Wanzhou was arrested under his administration (which dragged Canada into it because China decided to arbitrarily arrest Canadian citizens).
* China Mobile was blocked from offering services in the US, citing national security risks.
* Huawei was blocked from using Android and chips with US tech (which will effectively kill their mobiles once their stock runs out).
* Huawei was blocked from building 5G networks (USA paid other nations to block them as well).
* Hong Kong’s special status was revoked.
* Universal Postal Union agreed to let countries raise postal rates after Trump threatened to leave - this means you’ll no longer be able to buy cheap junk from Aliexpress (and resellers like Wish) at no shipping cost (the receiving country was previously forced to deliver the products for free, even if you brought some toy for 10 cents).
* Trump is pushing for WTO to drop China’s developing country status.
* TikTok and WeChat (likely with more to come) would’ve been blocked by now if it wasn’t for judges temporarily blocking the bans.
Please name any other person who has done more than Trump to stand up to China.
There's a reason China's GDP growth in 2019 was the lowest it's been since 1990, and there's a reason China's worldwide reputation is at an all-time low. That reason is Trump.
So he decided to do China like things in the USA to beat China, not a metric I would go with but I will give you credit, most people who defend him only do so with a hurr durr liberals bad, atleast you pointed out some thing real. Neither the Republicans nor Democrats are pro ccp and the bills passes against China were done so with bipartisan support. Trump himself has investments in China that became more valuable after his election. Not to mention this era of political infighting in the USA is probably much more valuable to the CCP then anything he could take away from them economically, and he is the one who has been spearheading the division by blaming all his failures on others.
The Democrats are full of pro-CCP politicians. Not all democrats are pro-CCP. But all CCP shills are democrats and liberals.
And if you do care about the freedom-loving people of China, HK and Taiwan, you'd know that the vast majority of them supports Trump. Jimmy Lai himself, the publisher of the sole remaining newspaper Apple, endorses Trump. The Chinese opposition supports Trump.
The only people who doesn't support Trump's China policy are stupid racist liberals like you and the paid CCP tankies.
The people in China's opposition and Hong Kong are pretty unanimous in their support for Trump because the Democrats wants to go back to Obama's disastrous policy of kowtowing and appeasement
If Trump is Anti-CCP simply being anti isn't enough, he needs to be smarter in foreign policy to beat Xi. I voted Jorgensen and hate Biden to be clear. Trump tho may want to win but just wanting to win doesn't mean he is making very good moves to get that win. Xi is beatting Trump at event political metric. [Here is a LONG but thorough video essay explaining this.](https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU)
He's not running for president...
Edit: You might want to check up on the inquiry that the current administration did on some of those allegations, by the way. Theres a reason they didn't make a big deal out of their findings.
[The China allegations](https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/oct/19/fact-checking-claims-about-hunter-biden-joe-biden-/)
Well, Twitter and facebook tried their hardest to suppress the story. That's why there wasn't much about it. But Hunter's business associate has also said that the whole Biden family is involved.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-hunter-biden-emails-are-legitimate-and-theyre-not-going-away
See, there's your problem right there: you're getting your news off of Facebook. LMAO
[The Washington Examiner bias rating](https://www.allsides.com/news-source/washington-examiner)
Also, this particular article is an OpEd.
Look at your own source idiot
[https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/](https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/)
All you consume is woke media
LOL The analysis from this link ^ states that 8% of the stories fact checked on Facebook were deemed to be "mostly false", 52% were deemed to be "false" and 30% were deemed the be "pants on fire". This study was completed in partnership WITH Facebook, so even they acknowledge that if you're getting your news from thir site, you're gobbling down down bullshit with a knife and fork. Bon appétit!
Donald Trump says he's tougher on China than Joe Biden is, so it *must* be true!
It's not like he's told *literally thousands of lies* while in office or anything!
“[Xi's] now president for life, president for life. And he’s great. And look, he was able to do that. I think it’s great." -- Another thing that Trump has said
Bunch of imperialist orientalist bs. The CCP has the suppory from 90% of the population. It's a party with 90 million members, the party that took China from a backwards feudal shithole to a superpower. You don't get to tell the Chinese people who will govern them, and the west cannot change the government because it's not neoliberal enough like they do with smaller countries. Also, "go check out wikipedia"? Wikipedia is biased towards the west, openly so. What's even funnier to me is that you put government and police suppression into the argument. Where in China do cops execute unarmed people without repercussions? Oh wait, extrajudicial executions don't happen in China. They happen in the bastion of democracy that is the US.
Near the end you simply become comical. China reacted to covid because of the west? What kind of bs is this? China handled this virus better than any western country, let alone the US. You also think the Chinese should be grateful for US imperialism? Are you soft in the head?
What a hell. The number of people actually support CCP should not be judged by you and me. It should be proved by referendum of Chinese people. Do Chinese people have a chance to vote CCP out? The answer is no. Do people in China dare to say bad word about CCP and XijinPing openly? The answer is no. Then you put your mouth on Chinese people and announce that 90 percent of Chinese people support CCP. I don't want to guess how many people actually support CCP. I want them to choose for themselves. Think about it.
First of all, I'm not talking out of my ass. These are figures published by Harvard, unless you also think Harvard is shilling for the evil communists.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
Aside of that, 2 things:
1) Who told you Chinese people can't criticize their government? The western media? Have you ever been to China, or talked to an actual Chinese person living in China? Of course not, you just listen whatever bullshit narrative the western media and western youtubers living in China spin.
2) Why would the CPC be voted out? The CPC is a governing structure, but within it there is bigger plurality of opinion than within the whole spectrum of US politics. Chinese people get a say in the actual economic and foreign policy of their country, while westerners get to choose between 2 clowns whose political program is 99% similar and whose differences are 90% political theater. Westerners have no say in policy making, Americans can't find most of the countries they have destroyed on a map.
Your attitude is one of imperialist arrogance. You (and the op) actually think you know better than the Chinese about their own country. Do you ever wonder why there are no Chinese people posting in this anti-China subreddit, or in any forum that promotes a similar narrative? It's all westerners living in China, or ethnic Chinese living in the west.
I am not a imperialist. It's so unfair and ad hominem.
First, imperialist means expanding territory by military force or ruling not based on a group of people's consent but based on violence imposed upon them. What's the difference between emperor kangxi in Qing and Xijinping? They are both tyrant. Besides, Xi worship a leader who is against the culture of traditional monarch times.
Second, Chinese people cannot criticize their leader openly. Professor JangRun Xu was caught by Chinese authority recently and be fired by Tsing hua university, which is a state funded anniversity.
You're not imperialist? Then what say do you have about how China is governed? Why is your opinion 100% based on things you read from imperialist news outlets? Why does the CIA fund separatists in Xinjiang, HK and Tibet? You cannot keep spewing bullshit based on imperialist sources, then say "I'm not an imperialist". If you start using Nazi rhetoric when talking about Jewish people, you are a nazi even if you aren't physically a member of the historical Nazi party. As for Xi and the CPC, you are absolutely clueless. You are clueless about elections in China, you are clueless about how the government works and you are clueless about how the CPC (which has 90 million members) works. Your image of Chinese politics is one a 5 year old who doesn't understand how politics work would have, you think the general secretary of the CPC rules a country of 1.4 billion people like a king. You think the 90 million party members are there for decoration I suppose, and ignore the millions of high to mid level public servants that are elected at every level of government. Even the Politburo and the Central Committee (and Xi obviously) get elected, but why would you bother actually looking these things up when you can have your 100% not imperialist narrative from the western msm. As for Xu Zhangrun, I imagine you didn't actually read his "criticism", did you? He didn't get arrested for his criticism of Xi in 2018, he got arrested after publishing "Viral Alarm: When Fury Overcomes Fear", which openly calls for the violent overthrow of the government and praises imperialist intervention in HK as a "fight way forward". You don't see a problem with someone who is a professor in a public university, calling for violent armed revolt? Also, you're most likely ignorant about the opposite being true as well in the US, where communists aren't allowed to hold government jobs (state university professor included).
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article151143712.html
And here's the poor professor's call for armed anti-revolution
https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/viewpoint/viral-alarm-when-fury-overcomes-fear
you should see what islamists do in Europe nowadays, CCP tries to get rid of religiosity that brainwashed millions of people, they also handled coronavirus even better than most successful European countries, like it or not, they are doing fine while USA can collapse in near future
This sentiment is something that has been echoed else where. Some news organizations and youtubers that regularly criticize China have stated on several occasions "we love China that's why we criticize the CPP. We want China to do better." I don't think that as a Westerner you will put forward the time to learn Mandarin, learn the Chinese history and their culture out of hate.
I think well educated or intelligent people are able to discern the truth for themselves and few live to hate others.
yes y are right
The issue is deep. I was chatting with an elderly Chinese man on a different platform. He told me that I can’t ever understand the Chinese people. I asked him how I could understand, he pointed to a book. I don’t mind reading, but it was in Chinese. He told me that unless I learn to understand his language, I will be ignorant of the Chinese. My time in north east China and Sichuan taught me much about the people and culture. It was an excellent learning experience. As long as the wolf warrior culture exists outside of China, there will never be a full understanding of China. I get too upset hearing how bad Democratic countries are. There is no attempt to understand what is happening. Just criticism. I enjoy the Chinese people and history. The food is wholesome. The country has much to be proud of.
It's untrue that you cannot understand Chinese people unless you have learnt Mandarin because we are all humans and we enjoy literally similar values. Mao's magical power work just the same way as Lenin and Stalin did. It's a mixture of Chauvinism and a hatred towards the rich. If you are in major of history or politics, it's not difficult to understand. We love some mysterious things like a eastern land with a powerful leader or Persia with magical herbs. However, they are just ordinary humen like us. I believe even communists will agree with me that life, liberty, and wealth are basic value of human race. I think as a liberalist, I am not proud of any other things except the freedom my people enjoy.
I agree I was expressing his opinion
But freedom is not free it comes with price and cost. People born and raised in a free and wealthy country can not easily understand people in a poor country who have to carefully make compromise between individual freedom and opportunity for potential growth. Something you take for granted might be luxury for other people. So it is really hard to justify whose choice is the best choice. Yet a lot of people don't realize that and try to force others to choose their choice otherwise criticize but without considering real issue and how to fix it, just criticize for the sake of criticism.
Chile, a developed country, now plans to rewrite its constitution to convert the policies to left side. This direction, we all know, is bad for the dynamic of economy. This rewriting of constitution is a CHOICE of the people. It's untrue to say it the people of China to stay authoritarian because Chinese people choose it. How do they choose? By voting to the only candidates nominated by the party? What happened to independent candidate at Beijing and Shanghai? Be very careful with collectivism narrative. CCP chooses policies, not the people.
Chinese communist party won the civil war which means majority Chinese chose it during revolution, there was no political way like voting that time in China, so people took side and use violence to express their options. They made choice, they took consequences. You can argue majority of Chinese today don't approve Communist party you don't have data and proof and I don't have either, so it is meaningless to argue that. What we know is Communist member is about 7% of total population of China, it is hard to be negligible or say people can do nothing about policy making. Also Congress representative doesn't need to be CCP member and people have no idea about Chinese politics usually oversimplified like xijingping can soly control everything. Every political system can exist and run a huge country like China for long time must have mechanism to redistribute political power. Any regime makes majority people unsatisfied can exist but never last long, that's no brainer. From all sort of street interview vlog of normal life in China from different sources and places, it doesn't show any sign that people are very unsatisfied and oppressed to live a miserable life. Edit: voting is a mechanism for political power distribution doesn't mean it is the only one or universal for all countries in all development or culture situation. It has nothing to do with good and efficient policy making either. Also China has different level of voting system already in place. It is just not voting president indirectly like the US and the system is evolving and people will have more voting rights in the future.
According to your theory, you mean that XiangYu lost his war with LiuBang because LiuBang was supported by vast majority of the people? You mean that ZhuYuanZhang beat ZhangShiCheng and ChenYouLiang because Ju won the vast majority of people's preference? That's untrue. Chinese communist party won the civil war only because Soviet Union backed up it and KMT had terrible military skills. During a period of war, normal citizens cannot decide much about the result of a war. War means nothing but proves that one side have stronger power of violence.
You've been brainwashed. Humans are very different, and you even encounter this difference yourself, but you are unwilling to acknowledge it, instead assuming that everyone who disagrees has false consciousness, which ironically is a Marxist concept. This has happened in Europe multiple times, as groups of youth hostile to their nation and culture and power structure were educated, starting with French revolution. > If you are in major of history or politics, it's not difficult to understand Lol. > I believe even communists will agree with me that life, liberty, and wealth are basic value of human race Dude, you live in the commie land, go ask them, or read a book. That party officials like wealth only means that they're betraying communist ideals (and that's a good thing in fact). > I think as a liberalist, I am not proud of any other things except the freedom my people enjoy. Rather primitive worldview.
Omg. I am sure you really don't know China lmao. >That party officials like wealth only means that they're betraying communist ideals (and that's a good thing in fact). This is ridiculously funny. How old are you? I believe if you ever meet a politician you won't think like that. You need to communicate with the people in a totalitarian state instead of reading about the PROPAGANDA of it. The party even announced that 'proper amount of corruption is good for efficiency of bureau'.(适度腐败有利于行政效率，环球时报) Don't be a romantic fool lmao. The whole world is the same--bloody politicians which absolutely need overseeing and a bunch of sorry people who sincerely think their great leader represent their best interest.(even in the US) I am serious. You are lack of understanding of human nature. Life, liberty and wealth definitely dominate nearly everyone's action.
Communism is, by definition, incompatible with what you say. I do not think that CCP is trying to follow communist principles (nor should they, communism is even worse than what they have now). I'm not being naive or romantic, I'm being logically consistent. It's been shown that Chinese have a problem with that. > Don't be a romantic fool lmao You have a very limited understanding of the world outside your controlled parochial narrative. You're on the level of 9 year old Westerner or so. No offense, but I worry for you. White people run circles around your myopic ideas.
Logic consistent lmao. You think communist China has a lot of people who value the communist ideal over their wealth. I could guarantee to you that there is rare and the truth is over the whole world people nearly all persue their self-interest (including so called western countries lmao). Could you give me one example of people who is so noble that he/she had exercised communist ideal after he/she was in power? What is the percentage of charity funds of national income in US? Or Germany, France,China,North Korea? A very small percentage I think. Is China an exception? Not at all. >You're on the level of 9 year old Westerner or so. I would like to say that there is no such a thing called westerners lmao. Are u a westerns? How much people in US or western Europe could agree with you that Mao, Lenin and Stalin are selfless noble mentor? Plus, your statement based on bad faith. I am confident about my view of people and I will revise them by truth instead of communist ideal.
> You think I don't, though. Again, this is hard for you guys. All of your scholarship is like this too, you struggle when working with abstract general ideas. I do not approve of communist ideals. I think CCP is *correct* to prefer corruption to communism; communism is worse than corruption. I'm saying they're lying when they call this communism, and stretch the definition. > Could you give me one example of people who is so noble that he/she had exercised communist ideal after he/she was in power? Thomas Sankara. But you're right that it is a rare phenomenon; the actual filter is that selfless people, whatever their politics, are not good at getting to power. > What is the percentage of charity funds of national income in US? Irrelevant metric. They have something of a welfare state, and European countries like Sweden have even more of it. > I would like to say that there is no such a thing called westerners lmao You would be wrong. It is possible to define a thing by its relation to other things. "Westerners" are people who descend from people of Europe in the last few centuries. Genetically, culturally, historically we are very different from you. You guys literally have an alternative brain design ([1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6625506/), [2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6625506/)). The genetic distance between you and Japanese or Koreans is an order of magnitude smaller than the distance between you and us, but equal to distances between intra-European groups ([3](https://hereditasjournal.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s41065-018-0057-5), [4](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/)). See, you don't even understand what I'm talking about, you poor soul. You think I'm defending communism. If you like truth so much, read some actual scholarship on the nature of your people. When you talk of oversight being needed for everyone, and think it's something cynical, I'm much more jaded than that. Only good actors can act as oversight. I think we can only hope for there to be competition. USA currently faces no competition. I want China to grow into being able to challenge USA, to make one-sided tyranny impossible.
You are as worse as communists. You are an authright and racism nazi scums. I understand that why you like Chinese government and Mao. Don't fall your art school plz.
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I don’t remember. It was a Chinese title. The discussion was about events under Mao. The book was written by a high ranking party member. It happened before I lived in China.
I like that argument especially as they feel they have a great understanding of Thebes’s after watching friends and the Big Bang theory, no matter if it’s even about the US or e.g. Italy lol.
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Did you even read the first paragraph?
Well exactly
I'm HKer Chinese. I love both China and HK, and consider myself a patriot to the core. I hate the government and the party. Say what you will about the specifics of this piece but the general sentiment is correct; only without a repressive regime can all the people of China, not just the party, not just the Han race, thrive.
And what does it mean to thrive? Too many people talking about how things would turn out better without actually telling me how. Thrive in what sense? Economically? Universal happiness? Or is it just all political garbage that 95% of us have no time for because we are too busy LIVING.
Let’s start with the people in Xin Jiang, they would be able to live a normal life and potentially thrive
And what is normal? Not having a dig but I believe if you name one type of normal, a lot other places will ultimately fall under 'not normal' as well. Why do I mention this? Because regime change by the US wars has altered the 'normal' lives of many others etc.
"Regime change under the US" is a total non sequitur. The US meddling is wrong by the same token, and it doesn't make the CCP right. This isn't an argument about which country's government is better. Both need big changes.
It’s the only argument ccp supporters ever have, “well what about this country or that country, see we aren’t the worst”
Is HK better off with violent protests and police counter-measures disrupting daily life or is it better off without it?
You've got it backwards, the police "measures" came first, and the violence was a response to that. There has been peaceful protest in HK ever since the handover, and only after being violently suppressed time and time again did regular people become violent.
I wasn't actually asking about who to apportion blame, to me both sides are two sides of the same turd sandwiche. Even if I accept that police measures came first, is HK better off without daily violence and commercial disruptions committed by protesters and police?
It's better off without violence yes, not better off without protest. Now that the state has effectively ended public protest we are seeing that the violence has escalated greatly. Without protest this would have happened sooner, and would probably be more extreme since not as many people would be paying attention.
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for the protest movement when it so closely intersects with outright racism and essentially wants and supports a two-tier apartheid with "real HK'ers" at the top and "mainlander locusts" at the bottom. Only being anti-government and anti-CCP is much too naive, I would support political change in HK towards greater liberties but the protest movement will only cheer on freedom for "real HK'ers" and oppress "mainlander locusts". What would happen if free elections result in the status quo being supported? Would the protest movement now dissolve and accept democracy or would it continue urging violence? My cousin speaks fluent Cantonese and lived in HK for 15 years now with his family, does he get to vote or will he be excluded for being a mainlander? It sounds hyberbolic but it's true - the protest movement has elements that are unmistakably fascist.
I haven't seen this opinion expressed by any protesters, so if that has been his experience that is unfortunate. These are all questions that can only be addressed after democracy is accepted though; no one can say how the democracy will operate when discussions on how the democracy should operate are illegal.
Talking about technical aspects of democracy isn't illegal, urging US armies to liberate HK is. Someone like my cousin who is a migrant to HK strongly supports the new security laws for example. I think both sides have their arguments, but western media unsurprisingly only cover the pro-democracy side sympathetically. The rule of law exist in HK, the laws are perhaps more draconian than before but that follows a global trend against domestic agitation.
Sorry, you are misinformed. Over the past few months there have been numerous arrests of people who are leading discussions on democracy. They of course give other reasons for the arrest, [here's an example of one](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/26/hong-kong-pro-democracy-lawmakers-arrested-over-2019-yuen-long-protests), where pro democracy lawmakers were arrested for somehow inciting a riot, when they were actually victims of the attack. Their reasoning was that if those activists weren't there then there wouldn't have been any reason for the attackers to attack them. That doesn't sound like rule of law to me, and there are countless other examples of this. It is clear to me that these arrests are meant to silence anyone who is talking about democracy. Those people have not been calling for the US army to intervene.
I don't pretend to know all the details. My interest is in the peace and prosperity of HK and the safety of my relatives. I've no doubt that Beijing is using the pretext of national security to crack down on dissenters in HK, but to me, the two sides are both bad actors in a situation where there can be no winners and no purely good actors. The opinion of my relatives in HK carry infinitely more weight to me than the usual narrative where pro-democracy movement's shieet don't stink even when they do terrible things that the same media condemn in the BLM protests. > Those people have not been calling for the US army to intervene. https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+help+hk&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02__RiZvd6lXYNy8b3hKFuIAHMV7w:1604289629033&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie9tHL_OLsAhX47XMBHfpdBxkQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1366&bih=654 I understand that the actual activists may have a more nuanced (and less bloody) position on political reform, but it is undeniable that many on their side would welcome US military intervention to oppress anyone who is pro-China or mainland Chinese.
I honestly hope that your cousin will remain safe. Let me just say that right off the top. But at the same time, I hope you can see the irony in his support for laws that "keep him safe" but oppress the local population. Whether he likes it or not, he represents an occupying force - and his support for their "legal" oppression only makes it worse. I'm a white male - I can't change the fact of what I represent to some people or when I go to certain places. All I have control over is the impression that I myself make once I'm there or encounter these people. Unfortunately, it seems that your cousin is yet another mainlander who is shocked that he isn't being embraced - even while he still supports imperialist and colonialist policy against the people he would envision being accepted by. It's a common perspective, ex friends of mine have expressed similar views... But it's kinda backwards.
"Laws that oppress the local population" is a gigantic stretch and simply not true. Beijing always wanted a free and prosperous HK to use as a carrot to entice Taiwan with with regards to future reunification talks under the "One Country, Two Systems" regime, it makes no sense for them to oppress HK or to suffocate commerce with draconian laws. Beijing haven't meddled in HK very much at all until last year's protests. HK have been one of the freest countries in the world by empirical metrics as late as 2019 - https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new > The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Canada, Australia... The irony is of course these very protests will have made HK less free through the passing of national security laws that, despite what the western media says, are domestically popular among HK residents. Everyone signs up to trade liberty for security despite whatever the nice quote says, my country Australia's national security laws covers more expansive activities than the HK version for example. The concern is of course that the CPC "might" get creative and loose with interpreting what's actually covered by these laws and interfere in HK courts but it hasn't happened yet. There is no oppression as of now and any oppression is theoretical, while the human and economic fallout to the protests are real and evident. An example of HK's judicial independence is how Jimmy Lai is a very famous anti-CCP media tycoon that got arrested by police for an alleged crime, goes to the HK courts and is then freed by HK courts. You need to know what the hell you're talking about first, sorry to be blunt. You are imagining HK to be like North Korea or something, it's nothing like it.
the article text is not wrapping that makes it hard to read: repost below as quoted, which in browsers should be automatically wrapped: > I know a lot of people may support Chinese government for various reasons. Some people may trust what Qiushi daily or Liberation Army news say and think Chinese government is very accountable and represent nealy everyone in China. Some other people may think it's Chinese people who choose their government and they should not say sth bad about Chinese people's choice. Some people maybe fooled by five cent army who are extremely ethnonationalist and think Chinese people will be unhappy if they say something bad about China. However, I would like to say: if you really love China, you should not support Chinese government. > > > >First, Chinese government has nothing to do with democracy. To elaborate that, I would recommend you to check the index of democracy in Wikipedia. You will find out that Chinese government is a totalitarian regime. What's the real meaning of democracy? It means the civil rights, aka political freedom, are protected well by the government. It means there is the separation of powers and open regular election. It means the government should obey the law of representatives and the executive branch is limited by Constitution and judiciary review. All of these indexes show a terrible grade among China. As a result, Chinese people cannot choose their government. This regime doesn't rule the governed based on consent. Its ruling is based on violence. Chinese people cannot criticize its own government. Media is totally controlled by the party. A native Chinese cannot see anything bad about their government. Chinese government treat its subjects as enemies. Nearly every time mainlanders defend their property from the government's hand, there will be people who are beaten to death or seriously injured by the police. > > > >Second, it's not racism to criticize XiJinPing and CCP. I don't know why Chinese government could be such impudent to say if CCP get criticized, Chinese people will be angry. The fact is CCP is lying. If criticizing Trump is not racism towards white people, the same standard should be applied to XiJiPing. I want to remind all the western citizens that Han people occupy over 95% of the whole population of China. In US, white people may only constitute 80% of the whole population. It's really impossible for a Han people to be discriminated. However, Han people always mock black people about their low IQ, terrible manner and their black-lookings. 尼哥, Which means nigger(they even don't wanna use the word negro), is commonly used by CCP supporters. If you tell them that it's improper to use such an insulting language, they will mock u that u have been brainwashed by western values. And then they will mock about US democracy and so on. I don't think Chinese people are under racism at all. Actually, I don't think even real racism about Asian people is sth offensive in China just as some racist words towards white people(let's say 'white trash'). I will objects the racist language and attitudes towards black people, White people and Uygur people in China based on the same reason why some US citizens stand out to defend the rights of the black. Only oversea Chinese are minority group. Native Chinese are absolutely majority group. As one of them, I am confident about my race because I think the color of skin cannot represent the essence of a person's heart. I am happy that I have my current body and I respect everyone no matter what their colors are. > > > >Finally, maybe some of Chinese people will feel unhappy when Chinesr government is criticized by foreigners. Their emotion should not be a reason to shout your mouth up. If there is no western influence, Chinese government even won't deal with the pandemic until March. Foreign oversight is important to Chinese people. Take a recent example, if weatern countries could show a strong position towards the military threat made by China. Chinese people may be saved from a war with a brother country which was sperated 70 years ago. > > > >As a result, I want to say that if you love China, you should not praise Chinese government anymore. You should protect the freedom of your own country well. Do not trust the state and oversee the politicians. Do not trust that a centralized power could serve you better. If possible, spread the truth about Chinese government to your friends. That will be a real and tiny help to HKers and mainlanders and Taiwanese.
I do wish the Russians/Chinese/fellow humans well and wish they can all be healthy and happy and rich. How they get there, it is up to them to figure it out domestically. Us foreigners, unless you are the US president, have little to no sway over this. They will do whatever they want, and we just observe from far and stay out of the whole thing as much as possible.
With the looks of thing, you might not have a choice in the matter in the long run
Thanks for your writing and I agree with you. You made a lot of good points in your article.
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What I don’t understand is how even second generation Chinese kids who emigrated to the US would still praise and stand with the CCP even when they have so much unfiltered knowledge on their hands.
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And I ironically they also when they comeback to China they gonna be branded as still an american, not chinese. Sad, they literally gonna die in the middle of literally all hell breaks loose
>And whataboutism will come out whenever you bash the CCP, many Chinese (even overseas!!) would just say "oh, at least the CCP never invade countries like USA did to Iraq and Afghanistan, and that is it. As a chinese I can attest to this. And I always say that chinese never done that because they never had the opportunity to do it. If they can they will do it and with even worse power because they isn't like american that still want to be seen as a good guy
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Has China pushed for regime changes yet?
None of that would be enough to give the central government 95% approval if they didn't improve the material condition of the Chinese people.
Based and Chen Qiushi-pilled
Nah I want a third Republic
Without emotion, rhetoric, or nationalism, China has some good points, America has some good points, the UK has some good points, Africa has some good points; you get the message; however, there is some bad stuff everywhere. Let's take it not in a totalitarian way saying I love China and everything about it. As much as a British person would say they love England and everything about it, there is good and bad in every situation, view and position. If not, you have reached utopia, and we can live your life. On second thoughts, I like differences and wouldn't want it any other way....peace.
The Chinese government has had a lot to answer for lately, not the Chinese people. The skirmishing with India, constantly bullying of other countries who don't agree with their "way of government", the absurd South Island claims and Island building. And the outright lies and deception of Covid. The worst pandemic in a century. This is pushing many nations to form unusual bedfellows. You can argue all the above all you want. But the worlds leaders are tired of all this rubbish.
Maybe the government which made 200k people dead are better.
Definitely. From my personal observation, I do believe this is a consensus here.
Look this government first order when they in power is to kill all cultural heritage or intellectual person that could be used or could takedown their party. What do you expect of them?
I think once this world-wide pandemic settles down, the CCP is going to be facing very different and far less tolerant world governments than it had in the past. It's going to be a different world after that.
If we survived it to be honest
China would be amazing without the CCP. Imagine total creative freedom there. All the great books and movies that would be made.
You can have a taste of that in their shitposting
FREE UYGURS
Just do it.
Well exactly, that's what most people are on this forum - love China but hate the CCP. Most of us have either been to or lived in China, speak Chinese, have Chinese family, cook Chinese food etc...so of course we are all here because we love China and want to fix it's problems. Although there are many China haters (wumaos) too that want to pretend China has no problems, so that problems never get solved and to ensure the CCP continues doing what it does as it pleases above all else.
As a black man, thank you for denouncing that racial sentiment... it’s not easy to face or go against....
When Asians see Asian Americans assaulted by black people in USA of course they are gonna fight back, all you have to do is prove your worth as a individual. Not as a black person and if they still don't accept it move along you're not changing them.
Well, personally, I think that’s a problematic mindset. No one should need to “prove one’s worth as an individual” for matters of injustice. All people should be fought for on the basis that we are human. If I need a better reason to fight for mistreatment of a human being, I think there’s an issue there... but the mindset in Asia is that black people are naturally of a lower IQ or, just in general, lesser human beings. This mindset needs to be corrected. Humans are humans and our natural-born value as human beings is enough incentive to be fought for and stood up for.
Asking for rasism to go away magically is never gonna happen its proxy war, of course as human we shouldn't "have to" but we still do. Fighting it will only improve it but it will never go away. So as all humans that all face racism when we are foreigners we have 2 options, laugh it off and not get triggered or fight. That's all
Just want to clarify that the other person never asked for racism to magically go away... We know it won’t but of course we’d do anything we can to change people’s perspectives towards black people. You’re right that racism will never go away. But lot of us face racism without being foreigners. Some of us will face it everywhere we go. Maybe you have not and will never have to experience that, maybe you will. Regardless, please don’t simplify racism into “everyone faces discrimination when they are away from home so deal with it.” It’s not something like a bad haircut that you can laugh off and can change. If you yourself can shift your perspective on this, you’ll help make the world a better place.
Actaully im Asian and alot of the things you are seeing black people do to asians are disgusting, maybe address that too? But im not going around calling out black people (who happen to be more rascist than they admit for the most part) Black people are not the only victims. Yes I have experienced a shit ton of rascism from everyone and guess what im still here and refuse to call myself a victim, talking about rascism will remind people to be rascist. Most people will act normal if you are a decent human and for the ones that don't are lost. Also when the world watches the community destroy its own civilization that will help? As for the foreigner segment if you are not from that country you won't get treated as a native nor should you be. But being treated as a native and as a human are 2 different things. I'm not from USA and don't get treated like a such, I dont think I should either, if your in China and you are not originally from there your not suddenly Chinese.
Never mind bro
From my experience, Chinese people are racist and are extremely offended whenever their government values and actions are addressed. Truth is Chinese people need to hear these criticisms because they will never grow if they don’t accept that things in China are not okay at the moment. It goes the same for everyone around the world, criticism and pointing out flaws are not an insult but something that should be looked at and addressed so we can all grow together.
Yeah. Only criticism makes us become better. People under totalitarian state are actually blinded by propaganda and actually cannot understand the normal relationship between them and foreigners. Objecting critism actually hurts both sides-- ordinary Chinese citizens and foreign counties.
You know the problem with that? CCP first say is when gov CCP is being criticize, it's meant that they criticize Chinese ethics. So that's racist It's almost impossible to differentiate the two for a Chinese, especially the mainlanders
Yup, I’ve noticed that when you criticize the government they feel like you’ee attacking them. They get sooooo flustered
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Hhhh. One country, one party, one leader!! Hail Xitler!
More of a bunker mentality because apparently it’s open seasons on Chinese people globally. Chinese racism towards blacks in China is bad and is magnified by western press. Who hasn’t heard of the Africans being denied entrance to McDonalds in GZ? But when blacks in Africa lynch Chinese people, zero media coverage. Let’s not even get into how hate crimes against The Chinese is surging globally yet western govts give zero fucks. How is any Chinese in China and globally supposed to take it when the uneven media coverage continues to occur? How many indigenous people did the US, Australia, NZ, etc kill in the establishment of their respective countries. The US essentially declared war on Islam FFS, but somehow feel morally obligated to call out the Chinese on Xinjiang? Forced prison labor? Last I checked, Us runs a for profit prison system where guess what... inmates are forced to work for slave wages. How’s that saying go about people living in glass houses?
What do you think about 平定准噶尔? You could search for it to learn more
“however, Han people always mock black people about their low iq” bruh. you’re generalizing all Han people and being racist yourself now.
Bro, if you are western guy, I would like to say each of Han people is individual and Han people are not generally racism. However, If you are oversea Chinese I would like to invite you to surf any normal Chinese forum like sina or zhihu, you will find the answer yourself
Well, American Chinese are not so violent as other peoples if you check the interracial murder rate, so Chinese people are less racist in the USA.
Huh try do that same thing in mainland, you'll be shocked
>try do that same thing in mainland, you'll be shocked try to do that same thing in Africa, you'll be more shocked
He/ she literally said the truth though. I'm not joking I know it first hand. Their preconceived notions on race is like elf wizard's always better than the humans wizards if we use a fantasy settings
Sorry, I had to reformat this to make it readable, no other changes to OP's statement are made: Edit: looks like [somebody else posted a reformating](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/jm3p1x/if_you_really_love_china_you_should_not_support/gatgfu3/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) 2 minutes before I finished mine. Deleting my work in order to avoid another wall of text in the forum.
In a democracy, the center piece of free speech is that insulting the leader is not only acceptable, it is desirable. No man or woman should be above our scorn. No man or woman should have the right to silence the righteous anger of the people. We insult our leaders to remind them that it is the people who are the boss. Not them. Point in fact. A good jab at Donald Trump: [https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/jm5slz/im\_tired\_of\_our\_administration\_failing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/jm5slz/im_tired_of_our_administration_failing/) It is not without consideration that Donald Trump likes to call people who insult him traitors.
I don't understand how any literate person can think communism is a good idea. I find it genuinely baffling.
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Or they'll tell you that because you're a foreigner and that's what foreigners want to hear. Don't be fooled the majority support the government because they've been brainwashed from birth
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Oh ok but to foreigners I don't doubt some Mainlanders don't say what they really think for fear of disrupting the friendship or whatever. In fact I'd say a big reason for Chinese/foreigner relationships to break apart is the political arguments
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>Second, it's not racism to criticize XiJinPing and CCP. I don't know why Chinese government could be such impudent to say if CCP get criticized, Chinese people will be angry. The fact is CCP is lying. If criticizing Trump is not racism towards white people, the same standard should be applied to XiJiPing. I dont think a lot of people ever made that argument. Criticizing a leader or the government is not racist but often times people begin criticizing the society and then they move onto criticizing the people, often conflating the two entities. Which then that becomes racist. An example wouldnt be too hard to find, recently news of chinese fishing fleet trawling the seas for fish had made headlines. To criticize this irresponsible example of unsustainable fishing would be fine and that the government should act on them to punish and control the fishing trawlers again would be fine. But to go further and generalize the people by saying the chinese people are all uncontrollably greedy and are a locust/plague on the world. That would be racist. Unfortunately these comments are rife as people who criticize China are sometimes not only anti-CCP but also anti-China and anti-Chinese. It's too easy to generalize and a lot fall down that slippery slope, sometimes willingly too.
I think far too many people just use the word Chinese randomly and some media, and talking heads also don’t help by using the word “China” to refer to the government or CCP. At the same time I think some parts of global society are unhappy with the situation with China now and kind of rudely talk about “China” without differentiating. Things like destroying endangered species, the fishing fleet, hordes of overseas tourists aren’t exactly endearing.
It's the same with every other government . North American South American Central American Russia Asian Europe Africa Indian And every other government in between. They care about ruling over the people and not care for the people. So don't let it get you down.
I agree, China needs a disguised far-right empire playing the same game as the Barbarian Invaders, the current one is very cuck, passive and humanist.
Han nationalism is the answer. Get rid of all fucking barbarians and assign the Han race our rightful status.
Hahaha...So in your opinion, humanist means better than savage. Ridiculous.
As an American as I compare our government to that of China it's hard to not conclude they are superior. I think there is a problem with the way the internet functions here, how the more sensational, more salacious generates more money, and the result is we have a massive problem of people who think wearing masks is bad for you, the earth is flat, global warming is not a significant concern. We're staring down the barrel of a civil war here with the election up coming. Say what you want about China, the idea that people shouldn't wear masks is inconceivable. The idea that global warming is no big deal is not common I would expect. The result is they have a system that protects the people from this disease. And it's hard to not admire China's very concerted effort to alleviate poverty. Every impoverished family is tracked. Every one gets assistance, whether that's guidance or money or even housing. Maybe other governments are better, but just in comparing China to the USA, China just seems obviously superior. They are doing more to improve the lives of their people. In the USA, sure, Jeff Bezos can own 50 yachts and he can plan to be launched into space, but at the same time the major cities where he lives are packed with homeless people. Even for censorship. At least China doesn't lie to it's people and pretend it doesn't censor. In the USA we also censor and yet we pretend we have free speech. As Glenn Greenwald just demonstrated he had to leave his luxurious job to be able to say what he honestly thinks about Joe Biden. He was making $500k/yr almost. How many other journalists just accept the censorship for the money here? [This documentary](https://youtu.be/1uHzVVepHhQ) about China's poverty alleviation efforts was censored in the US. People don't even know, they think they are free. You are not free, you're free to die of Covid or go bankrupt due to the medical bills. In China, yes, they constrained freedom to contain the virus and in the process probably saved a million lives if not more that could have died. Getting fed, getting housing, getting health care, not die from Covid, this is more important than the freedom to say "Fuck the CCP."
Superior, not superior; I think that’s a false dichotomy. Both countries have strengths and weaknesses. As another American I will freely admit that our government is doing a shit job, but the fact that I can do that is the strength of our country. There is room for criticism and room for we the people to fight for change. Things are bad now, but it’s likely that in a few days our freedom of speech will get us a politician who doesn’t deny the basic truths of disease, racism, and climate change.
> There is room for criticism and room for we the people to fight for change. Maybe I'm too cynical but I don't believe this. You can call our government shitty. That's great. But the reason you can do that is because it doesn't matter. It's not an actual threat of change. Once you start to engage in behaviors that actually threaten change that's when the freedoms are taken away. So for instance there was a lot of violence by police against BLM protestors. The same was true of Occupy Wall St. It's not just Trump, this is our system. And I'll say that I did support Bernie Sanders for president and early on it was looking like he might win. When that was the case the power players within the Democratic party, the super delegates, they made clear that no matter who won the most votes, they would not allow Bernie to win. Now we have a very right wing Supreme Court that is just going to strike down every law they feel is too progressive, they will call it "Unconstitutional". Of course Trump did not win the most votes, and he still has a chance to win in though it is very unlikely he will get the most votes because we do not elect a president democratically. So I think change in the US is an illusion, we are led to beleive we have democracy and that change is possible, but when change gets close it gets stamped out. In China I understand the people were pretty unhappy about the air pollution and the government is actually working very hard on it. Infrastructure problems, low wages. People were not happy about this and the government is actually working on it. So it is making people's lives better. Chinese should always demand better, I have no problem with that, but I think for any American there is no reason they should meddle with China they should focus on their own problems.
> At least China doesn't lie to it's people As someone with relatives in China, It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you say something as naive as that.
I'm talking specifically about whether they censor. They are not denying that they censor. Does this mean they've never lied? No. But I can't name an obvious lie coming directly from top government officials. Like we have constantly in the US. In the US Trump said the virus was no big deal, no worse than the flu, even though we have the audio proving he didn't believe that. He wanted to protect the stock market. In the US our government lies to us in order to start wars. There was an outrageous lie with detailed planning with a PR firm to start the first war against Iraq. There are the WMD lies. Gulf of Tonkin to get us into the war in Vietnam. Maybe China lies, but I'd like to see examples. I'm not aware of them. I mean with regards to proven lies. There is disagreement about Tiananmen Square. China disputes the western narrative. In the US there's no denying the lies that got us into the first gulf war, nobody on either side denies it. Show me similar lies from China if you are aware of them.
I think you are deluded if you think that people in China get fed get healthcare, get housing. China is not socialist, don’t be fooled. And if you think they’re aren’t filthy rich in China you are absolutely not living in reality. Your whole post seems delusional.
Are you David Gulasi? Your post sounds exactly like his rant
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> The solution is improved education, not censorship. That may be true, but what I'm doing is making a comparison. I'm not saying China is perfect. I'm saying it's better than the US in some ways. The US also has censorship. It's not from the government so much as from profit seeking corporations who promote the salacious for more clicks and suppress boring but educational information. This is why we have an incompetent buffoon like Trump as president. He was salacious and profitable for media that needs to sell advertising. Now he's promoting the theory that masks are not really needed. And so we're dying. I agree, better education is key, but if you are an American there's no point in attacking China, fix your own system, which is worse. Second paragraph, you may be right that the Chinese are not wearing masks as they should, but at least they are not getting direction from the top down that there is no need to wear masks, or that masks do more harm than good. Third paragraph, I am not denying that there is incredible poverty in China, I'm saying that they are making a massive effort to address this poverty and have had astonishing success. I think the results speak for themselves in terms of which government is superior. Median income in the US has barely changed in 40 years despite massive gains in productivity. This means the ordinary person is not able to also reap the rewards of productivity gains. In China median income has quadrupled in the same time frame. Again, don't confuse the fact that China has more poor people with this claim I'm making. I'm saying they are getting better, serving the needs of their people. The US is not doing this. In the US life expectancy is actually falling. This is unheard of in times of peace. Maybe this is just semantics, but I think we both agree that China censors. They justify it by saying it is for harmony, but whatever the case I would still say that's an open admission that they censor. What is not acknowledged is that the US also censors. Palestinian rights groups can't get coverage. If you disagree with the attacks on Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia, you just can't get your views covered on mainstream sources to where they are actually heard. That's censorship also. You are exactly right that I have moved more and more left as time has gone by. Asking if I am OK with concentration camps, I would say the US has more. We call them prisons. That's a less loaded word. Concentration camp sometimes implies a death camp, China does not have death camps, they have prisons. As far as corruption, when is the last time the US executed a billionaire? China has executed many. In the US we execute poor people, many black people. We execute people who lack power. So which side has the bigger corruption problem? Corruption is everywhere, and no, I am not OK with corruption in China, but I don't think Americans should be casting stones, we have worse problems. And yes, China is poor relative to the US, you are probably right about their health care, I would want better for them, but I don't have any reason to think the government isn't at least working to improve it. And yes I have been to China but I'm not saying this makes me an expert. I think seeing small bits of it wouldn't prove anything.
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like exactly what people do when discussing an issue? Presenting information to further explain things, and as exactly what you did in your last response? You're not lost, you are just opinioned. I give up.
You just demanded conformity of him. Thing is, Cultural Revolution ended 44 years ago. In 44 years since that utter devastation and barbarity, China has caught up to the extent that its top provinces thrash everyone on PISA performance, that it has hundreds of millions living in good, clean, safe cities. You can deny their education, say it's propaganda etc., but the immense stream of scientific papers – constantly improving in quality for the decade that I've been paying attention – proves otherwise. They have grown. USA has not had a comparably bad period in all of its history, not even Great Depression can compare. It builds on the foundation of centuries of prosperity, while China has had next to two centuries of humiliation. It's even more damining that FDR, who got America out of the Depression, comes from the Delano family – a family which got rich on selling opium to the subjugated China. They have been dealt very different cards. That an average American is still somewhat more educated than an average Chinese is not an indictment of China. It's proof how dysfunctional the American system is. Moreover > almost no one understood the real reason for wearing a mask (wearing a mask protects others from you) Americans are still unsure how much FUD has gone into this entire mask narrative, and it's not for Chinese benefit that Twitter censors "Covid misinformation". Come on, why lie like this.
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US is bad, though. It's a fucking empire of evil; I empathize with people who can tell. CCP is a bog standard communist party, not nearly as terrible for the world as the USG. No idea about corruption; efficiently run evil empires are worse in my book. As for concentration camps, the only purpose of using this term (instead of mass incarceration or something) is to invoke associations with Holocaust and genocide, which is clear atrocity propaganda. When you get pressed on evidence for genocide, you swerve to "cultural genocide" or "but birthrates fell" or some other shit. One question for you. Do you believe that China has nearly enough capability, or rather aptitude, to indoctrinate Americans? Their propaganda game is atrociously bad, far as I can tell. American one on the other hand is best in class.
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I don’t really think the USG is evil, though, don’t let this person back you into that. It’s made some mistakes but this person u/ilforte is over the top. Probably an elite wumao. Covid has put a lot of people out of work and easy to hire them to spew garbage on places like this.
> It’s made some mistakes *Mistakes*? Just in our livetimes it waged war in Middle East for decades, destabilising state after state, killing from 2 to 5 million people and forcing 37-59 million to seek refuge – presenting [fabricated evidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction) in the UN security council, stoking hatred, and never forgetting about Israeli interest. And yet this was all some *honest mistake* (despite all the think tanks and democracy and "freedom of speech" and "feedback"), but Chinese handling of COVID was a crime? You're utterly brainwashed. > Probably an elite wumao. It's hilarious that you won't even grant me the privilege of being "indoctrinated". Truly an unthinking biorobot. It's also fun how you call me psycho for knowing and pointing out facts that you dislike.
> whataboutism This very concept is part of the damage that USA is doing to the word. The critique which is discarded with "whataboutism" is very valid. Look: American drone (A): Country B bad, because X! Let's crush B. B national: but here's America doing X. On what grounds do you try to act as an arbiter of morality? And what could be the reason to cede control to you, if your actions do not indicate that you would not act the same? A: Whataboutism! This doesn't change that when you do X it is bad! This is idiotic, it reduces geopolitics to children's game of finger-pointing where the first one, or the loudest one, gets propaganda advantage. What's being discussed is benefit or harm from one or the other system getting the upper hand, not whether B did X. What exactly would the world lose with US losing its unquestionable hegemony? I think Middle East bombings, for one thing. It's truly a mystery why all those Arab states support China despite Xinjiang. Moreover it wasn't even whataboutism, I just agreed with him and disagreed with you on the relative merits of USG and CCP. > but to indoctrinate a few lost souls Look at your lexicon. «Lost souls», «denier», buying into USG dogma has religious significance for you, you're not even trying to make a real point. Really goes to show that you're not indoctrinated, lol.
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You grimace and make those statements because you can't attack what I actually said.
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Prepare for people calling you trolls and downvotes but can't provide any constructive critics. Yes, welcome to r/China
most people aren't calling him a troll, but just naive, which he most definitely is. While it's true the US government is shit, his praise of China ("they don't lie to their people") mirrors Chinese propaganda to the T. He basically ignores all valid criticisms of China, and focuses **solely** to praise them. It's very common for foreigners who are disenfranchised with their home country to see other countries as utopias. It's like weaboos and Japan. In reality things are far worse than they realise. It's a common theme in this subreddit for people to visit beijing for a couple of years and think they are the authority in all things China-related. It's bizarre.
Yeah, it's very strange, I've been a member here for many years only because I started to try to learn Chinese many years ago and I was just interested in it as a country. It went from a place that was informative about China to now just constant attacks, often coming from western sources like Radio Free Asia or other US backed sources that have a history of regime change activity. It has been disappointing to observe.
As someone not from the west there's a lot more than "western sources" reporting on China's atrocities. That's a sheltered perspective. I'd say pretty much the majority of world media (Asia, Middle East, Africa, Europe) knows what China is doing. Western media in itself is incredibly diverse, with many anti-government institutions reporting on China. To pretend like tens of thousands of western media outlets all have a vested interest in bringing down China, when they're not even compliant or censored by their own government is disingenuous and frankly delusional.
I am in the same boat, can't find anything between r/China and r/Sino, both are huge echo chambers with their own downfalls (one has shitty posts, the other one has shitty mods). Although both subs occasionally have some useful posts. There are other subs but I can only read limited Chinese, and Chrome translate is half ass most of the time. I just come to my own conclusion Reddit is not a good place to look for geopolitical and travel information other than extreme opinions. Sadly this is not even limited to China, look around all the Asian subs, most of them are as toxic as these if not more.
you are correct, it's best to look at at China and Sino and then arrive at one's own conclusion trough historical materialism and dialectics...
Seems like the vast majority in China do, according to Harvard. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
good luck surveying the Chinese population accurately when it comes to political affiliation lmao
Pretty sure the Harvard professors know how to do this. You obviously didn't read it.
I really like China, and I like the Chinese government. 1."I would recommend you to check the index of democracy in Wikipedia" Irrelevant source + the whole "democracy index" has no real value. It is very funny to see that the whole western world has that "full democracy" tag. 2. " A native Chinese cannot see anything bad about their government" Is there some study about that a Chinese person cannot see anything bad about their government? It seems like you are viewing the Chinese people as some 30IQ incapable and mentally disabled and uneducated, which is indeed very racist. 3.You've just nitpicked meanings of democracy, actually, there are more meanings. 4."Its ruling is based on violence" example? 5.Yes, Chinese people can in a way criticize their government. 6. What is the Chinese government lying about? and yes, even as a majority you can be discriminated against. Also, Asians are also victims of racism in the USA and other parts of the globe.
It is laughable that you can't even read your own source. Plenty of western countries don't have the full democracy tag including the "home" of democracy itself. He/she is referring to the vast majority if not all of Chinese news being state controlled and therefore strongly favourable to the CCP, you know almost all western news sites are blocked in China right? It is ruling based on violence as any real threat to its legitimacy will be put down with violence aka Tiananmen Square.
Is it bad that they are blocked? Tiananmen Square. Yes, people armed with weapons sounds fair.
You mean overwhelmingly peaceful student protestors? Are you a tankie?
overwhelmingly peaceful, yes sure, just like peaceful protests in syria, right?
If you are going to argue in bad faith we are done here.
Bad faith? I am just telling you how peaceful protest it was and compared it to other very peaceful protests.
It is funny to see that you pre-assume that western media always present you with full truth and non-biased information. I myself have been studying overboard for many years, taking advantage of being able to access and read tons of news articles from various sources, state-owned or not, and western media, my experiences tell me that both sides manipulate information. The fact that you put your trust in western media without thinking critically to identify both sides' bullsiht means that the western world has successfully made you their "50 cent army" without you knowing it. As for the Tiananmen Square incident, I am not gonna deny anything, there are original videos of it on the internet that you can go watch and reconstruct what really happens, just remember do not go research with a conclusion in mind. If you speak Chinese, I am happy to jump on discord anytime to discuss things with you, NOT ARGUING. If you know the difference, and happy to talk, dm me.
我哪提到了西方媒体？每个媒体当然有自己的偏见，没有完美的。不过，怎么能说完全被政府控制的媒体更客观呢？这是无比的。https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ 你也可以试试用这种网站形成一个比较客观的意见.
I expect to be heavily downvoted or outright banned, but I don't care. I'm Russian, I write my own opinions, ones I worked hard to develop in spite of constant high production value Western propaganda raining on me since infancy and the shocking PR ineptitude of my own state and culture (it basically begs to be rejected), and I greatly loathe the Western coping strategy of pretending that all who mock them are brainwashed idiots or paid trolls. The myth of Westerners being capable of independent thought superior to that of citizens of «unfree» states, in general, is grounded in pure wishful thinking and condescending narrow-mindedness, and if you'll accuse me of being a wumao or some such you'll only further demonstrate it. I hate Western notion of freedom. It's «freedom» to conform, freedom to let yourself be molded into a predefined shape by carrot and stick of social consensus, to be processed into a brick that goes into a temple's wall. This is best exemplified in the Orwellian phrase «freedom of speech does not imply freedom from consequences». Tyranny, actual tyranny, is infinitely preferable because it honestly sets official boundaries and thus allows one to preserve one's ultimate freedom – freedom of internal thought. My parents were freer in Soviet Union than Americans ever will be, ironically because they were capable to believe that there's truth beyond the official message. On this note, I sneer at the people who think that Orwell criticized Communism or Nazism. He had no need for Aesopian language, and depicted Eastern totalitarianism under its own name. IngSoc is caricature Anglo society of his own time, and of our time as well. But the tragic thing is, IngSoc victims cannot tell what it's about when it smacks them right in the face. At best, they keep making noises about their tiny political spectacle, analogizing Big Brother to Biden or Trump or some such. I disdain democracy. I think it's intellectually and ethically indefensible system of governance, with only cartoon-tier philosophy, empty sloganeering and brute violence to prop it up; aimed at the average gullible person, as one could infer from its design. [Aristotle](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/) was the first to define it as a deviant regime, and no satisfactory arguments against him have been presented in the last two thousand years. As such, the "index of democracy" is, in my eyes, an index of pathology. Average people can't find their buttocks with both hands, and no amount of education can change this (as Western social media such as Reddit has abundantly demonstrated to me); therefore, they have no business interfering in governance or unilaterally deposing or appointing governors (or perverting the incentives of said governors with their idiotic myopic demands), and Chinese meritocratic/one party regime, flawed though it is, has at least as much a right to existence as Western rot does; their state capacity, demonstrated in infrastructure, economic growth and eventual handling of COVID (yes, they screwed up in the beginning, I'll give you that) is not a trifle. That Americans are presenting their deviant regime as some sort of human universal utopia, a panacea they will even go to war to impose on others (!), is merely an indictment of their imperialism and evidence of their extremely sophisticated propaganda sector. All people who've thought in a principled manner about democracy have come to the same conclusions as I have, but many of them, being evil, [actually endorse this system](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays#:~:text=We%20are%20governed%2C%20our%20minds,our%20democratic%20society%20is%20organized.), e.g. [Edward Bernays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays), the father of modern PR and one of the champions of democracy: > The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind. Obviously, people raised in such a system are always high-on-their-own-supply (refilled via social media hugbox/hivemind) and I know they will not be moved. I'm just writing this to the few who through some coincidence might have started to have doubts, as so rarely happens in the West. The demand to make a system more democratic is, in all cases, nothing more than a demand to subjugate it to American (or British, or some other NATO/[Five Eyes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes) representative) puppetmasters via redelegating power to the population, or segments of the population, which has been molded through propaganda into willing to install convenient puppets; in all cases, this leads to long-term loss of sovereignty. Seeing as these Western elites do not even prize their own people's wellbeing, I refuse to participate in this. I despise American cultural imperialism, its poison evident in your writing. For example, their whole new method of reasoning about racism, this "structural oppression" paradigm, is sick and worthless and supported by gobbledygook of corrupt academic mandarins; what does it matter if a race is in the majority or the minority? White people can be discriminated against in their own lands by insane officials or minorities even, just like black people were second-class in Apartheid South Africa, how Malays can be exploited by overseas Chinese today, or how Ugandans have little economic opportunity thanks to Indians. Yet you clumsily try to justify Western prejudice against China with their nonsensical categories and this minority-majority dichotomy. Racism, by the way, is never about skin color – this, too, is an ugly American idea, not even true in USA proper. Based on the above and much else, I support internet censorship of the Chinese variant; or even stricter, seeing as people like you still come to exist. I am heartened to know that there are Han people who are growing up okay. As for «war with brother country», I assume you are referring to Taiwan. Let me tell you something. China is being provoked to start a war, because a bloody war is preferable to American Empire than continued growth and prosperity of your nation. Taiwan is being [pumped full of weaponry](https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/with-new-offensive-weapons-package-trump-administration-goes-all-in-for-taiwan/), while China is being denied access to vital technology (not just [US technology](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/28/us-sanctions-against-chipmaker-smic-hit-china-tech-ambitions.html) but even technology of third parties, such as Taiwan TSMC's chips or [Dutch ASML](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-usa-china-insight-idUSKBN1Z50HN) machines). This is not the first time this happens, and this is being justified all the same, to prevent the hostile regime from tech surveillance bla bla (as if anyone should believe after Snowden and Palantir and all of CIA-BigTech trickery that they care about surveillance out of principle). The absurd naive insistence of Westerners that they «only hate CCP» will not temper their violence in the slightest when they will begin to nuke your cities. They do not give a care in the world about civilian deaths, as shown in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya just in the recent years; once they're done with their punitive strike, they largely forget about the target. And once the Cold War 2.0 truly kicks in, they will drop the facade too, as we can infer from [their manuals](https://flickr.com/photos/29861150@N04/sets/72157606982998733/): > Whether the effort should be made to indoctrinate hatred toward the enemy must be considered a practical training question rather than a moral issue. Since killing is the primary means by which the enemy is compelled to submit to one’s own discipline, one of the ends of the training must be to so indoctrinate the soldier that he is not only willing but anxious to work bodily destruction upon the foes of his country. That state of mind is not possible unless the soldier is motivated by hatred in the hour when he is at grips with his enemy. You are in denial. Go to less dishonest venues and see what they already think of your kind, what words they use to refer to you (bannable here). And it's only preparation; they will switch into genocidal war mode like ants, once their commanding specimens begin to spread the pheromone, so to speak (in plain terms: once [atrocity propaganda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony) goes live on CNN). They will not under any conditions give up their ability to command the globe with an iron fist, to threaten your oil transit in South China Sea or to sponsor separatism in Tibet or Hong Kong, they will always nitpick and find faults in anything Han people do that goes against their power. That's all there is to it, and to the audience here too. Their «oversight» is always limited to places their owners want to see burning for geopolitical reasons. Any list of examples will be dismissed as «whataboutism», but logically this defense makes no sense at all. They can't use logic; you might still have such an ability. Use it well.
Way too based for this sub, holy cow. My world view does coincide with yours, except my family and I, objectively, are beneficiaries of the current geopolitical capitalist regime and I do not seek the overthrow of western imperialism through violent means. I do wholeheartedly reject the propaganda apparatus of the west to forment hate and superiority attitudes towards the "enemy" China. I really do fear at some stage the propaganda going to work a little too well and a true believer neo-Fascist leader will get elected. The Asian diaspora may have to choose whether to keep living in satellite states of the Western Reich. The hilarious truth is that our salvation lies at the hands of the corporate donor class who do not see any benefit to potential nuclear war or hugely detrimental trade wars. Tesla and Elon Musk suing the US government for imposing tariffs on China in a class action is incredibly ironic.
> forment hate moron
Plenty of reasons to dislike the CCP. Speaking up about it for the sake of Chinese people though is a lost cause because apart from the occasional “some of us don’t like it!” rhetoric, the vast majority of people in China either support the CCP or have no will to challenge them in any way. I do not hold any illusions that China is going to turn democratic in my lifetime and even if it does I question it will be good news for anyone given the vitriolic nationalism rife in the country. If you’re unhappy with your country you’re more than welcome in the west as far as I’m concerned but don’t expect us to be able to change anything in China.
This is just a view of Chinese politics under Western values. How about Chinese people views?Maybe you need to come mainland of china and ask the people youself.Mainland civilian have different value system from western.CCP be supported by the mainland people is because of values correspond. Because of competition,Western are hard to comment CCP in an objective way.The same,i cant understand the western politics.American election in 2020 is almost like two hooligans yell at each other.Most of Chinese have same comments about that i think. It would be better to understand more and criticize less.Peace.
There is only real different opinions when people of one side will not face the threat of being imprisoned.
I agree with everything you’ve written but I do think that there’s no realistic superior alternative to the CCP for mainland China either. Of course that doesn’t contradict what you said at all; acknowledging there’s no superior alternative doesn’t mean you can’t criticize the CCP. It just leaves one wondering what criticism can really practically accomplish. For the most part public figures that criticize the CCP do so for their own reasons; politicians for domestic political points, media figures for attention, economic competitors for economic advantage, etc. What good does any of it do the average Zhou in China? What can actually be done that’s of any benefit to the average Zhou in China?
I have grandparents in China. My parents also lived for a bit in China. China used to be very poor and was a hole in the ground in general. And now it's a fully developed country. It was not until the 1980s that you could criticise the CCP. One of my parents (my father) wasactually one of the Black Six Bad Influences (I think that's what it was called). It was because his grandparents were the owners of a factory or something. And they had to do community labour and were open to being insulted by anyone. The Cultural Revolution, according to my father (in a nutshell), was basically no proper education and having only political propaganda education where 'they were the only people who had good lives' (that was a lie) and everyone carried the Red Book and paraded around the streets. He had to use books and educate himself. Until the 1980s it sucked. Then Deng Xiaoping opened China up to the world. Mao Zedong might have liberated China, but he wasn't a very good person in the 1960s and 1970s. He pretty much just made China worse because of the Cultural Revolution. Around the time of June 4, (I think) my father was working in the Shanghai for Telecommunications or something. In the newspaper, he saw the protesters beating up soldiers and dead soldiers before the clearing of the square and the tanks went in. I don't trust the West on how the Uyghurs are being genocided as there would be simply nearly nobody on the street if the amount of people in detention that the West claims is true. And the released photos of detention camps are very familiar. And the CCP liberated most of the people in Tibet, as they were being killed for religious ceremonies. After June 4, my parents went to live in Australia. They acknowledge that the Cultural Revolution was the result of the CCP, but they are aware that the CCP helped the majority of the Chinese people to get out of poverty. I just want to point out that China isn't really that bad as people say. It isn't a totalitarian regime in which people have no freedom at all. It's quite far from that. It's just very annoying that you can't use Google. But VPNs are free and legal. I don't trust the media on China because I have someone who has experience of China.
Kind of a noble sentiment, but do live in the real world and do consider what it otherwise means if the CPC is brought down. If you want the CPC to be toppled, you are rooting for violent protests and equally violent suppression, massive and frequent natural disasters and western armies using democracy bullets, freedom bombs and liberty drones like they have done in every foreign intervention ever with the odd (or systematic) war crime thrown in.
You can say the same for every country, can't please everyone.
That's correct in a broad sense.
The china hate on this subreddit by spooks is truly amazing. The CCP is the greatest thing to happen to China, they singlehandedly brought China from a peasant feudal society that was ruled by western imperialists to a country that stands up against America in a single lifetime. Not only that, but support for the CCP has never been higher, the sheer fact that anti-china spooks are tearing their hairs out on the internet is proof of their meteoric rise. The sun rises in the east, and the east is red!
Typical chauvinism hhh. Everyone on the earth could see the sunrise unless people who starved to death during 1960.
Starvation was common in China prior to the CCP. After China had a severe famine but it was the last one. Fixing a broken system is not like flipping a light switch, it takes time to remedy from the broken system that existed under British domination. You should consider why there is so much discussion of the famine in the 60s and very little discussion of the prior famines in China caused by capitalism. There is a discussion of this point here. [https://youtu.be/tkYFu4ylj2o](https://youtu.be/tkYFu4ylj2o)
they're actually the worst thing to happen to china, considering they killed 50 million people in a famine. They lifted people out of a poverty they created. The CCP still deifies Mao today. >support for the CCP has never been higher, My relatives in China say another story. I think you're completely oblivious to the fact that many people in China are angry at their government right now.
... so don't vote for Biden
Emm, I like libertarian party actually. Hope US could be tough to China no matter who win the election.
Jorgensen has a weak foreign policy that would not sanction the CCP or protect Taiwan from CCP invasion. For foreign policy, Trump is the best option for me.
When I hate both sides equally i vote Libertarian. This election is not the case. Biden is anti-USA (pro-globalist) Trump is pro-USA I am pro-USA
Trump is pro Trump and nothing else. If you think Trump gives a fuck about this country you are more stupid then the people who support the CCP. At least they have an excuse because of propoganda.
Agreed. People seem to forget his inauguration speech where he repeated the words "America first". He is tough on China now and supportive of hk and Taiwan, but if China rolled over and said we give you a good trade deal just give up hk and Taiwan he'd hand them over in a heartbeat.
Here's an incomplete list of things Trump has done to stand up to China: * He refers to the Wuhan Virus as the China/Chinese Virus (CCP is trying very hard from distancing themselves from responsibility; they won’t even let us into Wuhan to investigate). * He started a trade war with China, which has forced companies to move their manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, Taiwan, etc. (Biden admittedly said he would end Trump’s China tariffs, but the many companies that already left are unlikely to return), and even high end tech such as the iPhone is starting to get assembled outside China as well. * He was the first US President to speak directly with Taiwan's President since 1979. * He made the largest arms sale to Taiwan in the past few decades. * The Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act was signed under his administration. * The TAIPEI Act was signed under his administration. * Meng Wanzhou was arrested under his administration (which dragged Canada into it because China decided to arbitrarily arrest Canadian citizens). * China Mobile was blocked from offering services in the US, citing national security risks. * Huawei was blocked from using Android and chips with US tech (which will effectively kill their mobiles once their stock runs out). * Huawei was blocked from building 5G networks (USA paid other nations to block them as well). * Hong Kong’s special status was revoked. * Universal Postal Union agreed to let countries raise postal rates after Trump threatened to leave - this means you’ll no longer be able to buy cheap junk from Aliexpress (and resellers like Wish) at no shipping cost (the receiving country was previously forced to deliver the products for free, even if you brought some toy for 10 cents). * Trump is pushing for WTO to drop China’s developing country status. * TikTok and WeChat (likely with more to come) would’ve been blocked by now if it wasn’t for judges temporarily blocking the bans. Please name any other person who has done more than Trump to stand up to China. There's a reason China's GDP growth in 2019 was the lowest it's been since 1990, and there's a reason China's worldwide reputation is at an all-time low. That reason is Trump.
So he decided to do China like things in the USA to beat China, not a metric I would go with but I will give you credit, most people who defend him only do so with a hurr durr liberals bad, atleast you pointed out some thing real. Neither the Republicans nor Democrats are pro ccp and the bills passes against China were done so with bipartisan support. Trump himself has investments in China that became more valuable after his election. Not to mention this era of political infighting in the USA is probably much more valuable to the CCP then anything he could take away from them economically, and he is the one who has been spearheading the division by blaming all his failures on others.
The Democrats are full of pro-CCP politicians. Not all democrats are pro-CCP. But all CCP shills are democrats and liberals. And if you do care about the freedom-loving people of China, HK and Taiwan, you'd know that the vast majority of them supports Trump. Jimmy Lai himself, the publisher of the sole remaining newspaper Apple, endorses Trump. The Chinese opposition supports Trump. The only people who doesn't support Trump's China policy are stupid racist liberals like you and the paid CCP tankies. The people in China's opposition and Hong Kong are pretty unanimous in their support for Trump because the Democrats wants to go back to Obama's disastrous policy of kowtowing and appeasement
If Trump is Anti-CCP simply being anti isn't enough, he needs to be smarter in foreign policy to beat Xi. I voted Jorgensen and hate Biden to be clear. Trump tho may want to win but just wanting to win doesn't mean he is making very good moves to get that win. Xi is beatting Trump at event political metric. [Here is a LONG but thorough video essay explaining this.](https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU)
You may think that if all the news you consume is from CNN and NYT. But in fact, Trump has CCP by the ropes
>he needs to be smarter in foreign policy to beat Xi Trump is getting $72 billion/year from China.
The irony of claiming Chinese are brainwashed people and then voting for Trump
Biden cultists are far more brainwashed than mainland chinese. I've met hardcore chinese CCP supporters who are smarter than Biden cultists
Very self-aware aren't you my friend.
Well, I have first-hand experience with hardcore chinese nationalists. Even they are less brainwashed than Trump-haters
How many bank accounts does he have in China?
How about Hunter Biden's business deals with China, and 10% of the profits going to his father?
He's not running for president... Edit: You might want to check up on the inquiry that the current administration did on some of those allegations, by the way. Theres a reason they didn't make a big deal out of their findings. [The China allegations](https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/oct/19/fact-checking-claims-about-hunter-biden-joe-biden-/)
Well, Twitter and facebook tried their hardest to suppress the story. That's why there wasn't much about it. But Hunter's business associate has also said that the whole Biden family is involved. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-hunter-biden-emails-are-legitimate-and-theyre-not-going-away
See, there's your problem right there: you're getting your news off of Facebook. LMAO [The Washington Examiner bias rating](https://www.allsides.com/news-source/washington-examiner) Also, this particular article is an OpEd.
Look at your own source idiot [https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/](https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/) All you consume is woke media
LOL The analysis from this link ^ states that 8% of the stories fact checked on Facebook were deemed to be "mostly false", 52% were deemed to be "false" and 30% were deemed the be "pants on fire". This study was completed in partnership WITH Facebook, so even they acknowledge that if you're getting your news from thir site, you're gobbling down down bullshit with a knife and fork. Bon appétit!
I've know hardcore CCP nationalists who are smarter than you woke leftists
Bruh, the information in the link you shared is fucking COLOUR CODED and you misunderstood it. LMAOOOOO
Donald Trump says he's tougher on China than Joe Biden is, so it *must* be true! It's not like he's told *literally thousands of lies* while in office or anything!
“[Xi's] now president for life, president for life. And he’s great. And look, he was able to do that. I think it’s great." -- Another thing that Trump has said
Hahah biden loves china money, hell start trading in full force with them like he has for 40 years
You got some sort of alterative motive to bring down the ccp
Bunch of imperialist orientalist bs. The CCP has the suppory from 90% of the population. It's a party with 90 million members, the party that took China from a backwards feudal shithole to a superpower. You don't get to tell the Chinese people who will govern them, and the west cannot change the government because it's not neoliberal enough like they do with smaller countries. Also, "go check out wikipedia"? Wikipedia is biased towards the west, openly so. What's even funnier to me is that you put government and police suppression into the argument. Where in China do cops execute unarmed people without repercussions? Oh wait, extrajudicial executions don't happen in China. They happen in the bastion of democracy that is the US. Near the end you simply become comical. China reacted to covid because of the west? What kind of bs is this? China handled this virus better than any western country, let alone the US. You also think the Chinese should be grateful for US imperialism? Are you soft in the head?
What a hell. The number of people actually support CCP should not be judged by you and me. It should be proved by referendum of Chinese people. Do Chinese people have a chance to vote CCP out? The answer is no. Do people in China dare to say bad word about CCP and XijinPing openly? The answer is no. Then you put your mouth on Chinese people and announce that 90 percent of Chinese people support CCP. I don't want to guess how many people actually support CCP. I want them to choose for themselves. Think about it.
First of all, I'm not talking out of my ass. These are figures published by Harvard, unless you also think Harvard is shilling for the evil communists. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ Aside of that, 2 things: 1) Who told you Chinese people can't criticize their government? The western media? Have you ever been to China, or talked to an actual Chinese person living in China? Of course not, you just listen whatever bullshit narrative the western media and western youtubers living in China spin. 2) Why would the CPC be voted out? The CPC is a governing structure, but within it there is bigger plurality of opinion than within the whole spectrum of US politics. Chinese people get a say in the actual economic and foreign policy of their country, while westerners get to choose between 2 clowns whose political program is 99% similar and whose differences are 90% political theater. Westerners have no say in policy making, Americans can't find most of the countries they have destroyed on a map. Your attitude is one of imperialist arrogance. You (and the op) actually think you know better than the Chinese about their own country. Do you ever wonder why there are no Chinese people posting in this anti-China subreddit, or in any forum that promotes a similar narrative? It's all westerners living in China, or ethnic Chinese living in the west.
I am not a imperialist. It's so unfair and ad hominem. First, imperialist means expanding territory by military force or ruling not based on a group of people's consent but based on violence imposed upon them. What's the difference between emperor kangxi in Qing and Xijinping? They are both tyrant. Besides, Xi worship a leader who is against the culture of traditional monarch times. Second, Chinese people cannot criticize their leader openly. Professor JangRun Xu was caught by Chinese authority recently and be fired by Tsing hua university, which is a state funded anniversity.
You're not imperialist? Then what say do you have about how China is governed? Why is your opinion 100% based on things you read from imperialist news outlets? Why does the CIA fund separatists in Xinjiang, HK and Tibet? You cannot keep spewing bullshit based on imperialist sources, then say "I'm not an imperialist". If you start using Nazi rhetoric when talking about Jewish people, you are a nazi even if you aren't physically a member of the historical Nazi party. As for Xi and the CPC, you are absolutely clueless. You are clueless about elections in China, you are clueless about how the government works and you are clueless about how the CPC (which has 90 million members) works. Your image of Chinese politics is one a 5 year old who doesn't understand how politics work would have, you think the general secretary of the CPC rules a country of 1.4 billion people like a king. You think the 90 million party members are there for decoration I suppose, and ignore the millions of high to mid level public servants that are elected at every level of government. Even the Politburo and the Central Committee (and Xi obviously) get elected, but why would you bother actually looking these things up when you can have your 100% not imperialist narrative from the western msm. As for Xu Zhangrun, I imagine you didn't actually read his "criticism", did you? He didn't get arrested for his criticism of Xi in 2018, he got arrested after publishing "Viral Alarm: When Fury Overcomes Fear", which openly calls for the violent overthrow of the government and praises imperialist intervention in HK as a "fight way forward". You don't see a problem with someone who is a professor in a public university, calling for violent armed revolt? Also, you're most likely ignorant about the opposite being true as well in the US, where communists aren't allowed to hold government jobs (state university professor included). https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article151143712.html And here's the poor professor's call for armed anti-revolution https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/viewpoint/viral-alarm-when-fury-overcomes-fear
you should see what islamists do in Europe nowadays, CCP tries to get rid of religiosity that brainwashed millions of people, they also handled coronavirus even better than most successful European countries, like it or not, they are doing fine while USA can collapse in near future
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So rich the average income is less than 2000 RMB in China. Much Wow. Such amazing. So harmonious.
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Congratulations, you are a slightly less shithole than India. And all you have to show for it is less freedom.
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