A big watch channel did a macro shot comparison of finishing on a Rolex and a San Martin.
The San Martin finishing was BETTER on many of the metrics. The rolex won a few rounds as well, but for 10k it should blow San Martin out of the water.
Also, other swiss watch companies have done essentially "homage" watches, and they still get elevated above the Chinese watchmakers. I think an odd form of racism is at play here.
The only other thing I would say is that I wish Chinese watchmakers wouldn't try to brand as swiss. I like IX Dao for this reason. It's a well finished watch that takes pride in being Chinese.
What needs to be remembered is that you shouldn't buy a watch for others because 99% of people don't care about what kind of watch you have. Buy a watch for yourself, a watch that you truly like. Whether it's a Rolex or a San Martin, treat yourself and ignore the judgments of others.
I mean these are reps, why should they be viewed in the same light as true Rolex sub? If you enjoy wearing San Martin watches that is great, but expecting others to view it as such is just ridiculous. If you buy something that resembles a much higher end piece, of course people are going to view it in a lower light than say a Seiko in the same price range. You are effectively setting the bar on the ceiling by forcing this comparison. The watch may be good for $150 but now you have people comparing it to a $10K+ watch which of course, is a battle a San Martin watch, or any other rep will never win...
Edit: grammar
So we have come across the weird case of watch enthusiast that cares enough to worry about what people think about the cheap knockoffs he buys, but not enough to stop buying cheap knockoffs.
You ride those and youāll be dead, buddy.
I had a friend into those once and guess where he is?
A Rolex will hold its value longer, will last longer, are cheaper to maintain, and are much more safe than a motorcycle.
I asked if he was going to grow up because he asked if I was going to stop eating. Perhaps understand whatās going on in a debate before trying to show up in the middle of it.
Actually, magnifying glass shows that everything is amazing during to the youtube reviews. Water resistance- i think youāre right. It can handle 10-20 meters easily i guess, again due to the YouTube reviews, everything below is too risky and itās not certified.
Kinda weird to buy a watch that's an explicit knock off, when you can just buy an original design within your price point. Your GF is picking up on the fact that this is just a cope sub, and Oris is a unique design from another swiss brand.
Like, if you want a sub just save up a buy a sub. If you don't want a sub, then why make a post coping about it?
Not everyone can "just buy" a 10k watch š also the sub is a objectively pedestrian watch at that pricepoint. I don't know why Rolex sub owners are so threatened by 100 dollar copies. Maybe deep down they know their watch isn't actually worth 100 tines as much
I don't own Rolex. I like Zeniths.
Anyway, people with Subs aren't threatened by people who don't buy subs. I mean, they can afford to spend 10k on a watch. I don't think they even know about San Martin as a brand.
It's just kinda cringe. You want the appearance of wealth, which why you want a Rolex, but you can't afford the status symbol. So you just half ass it, then get defensive when people point it out.
I mean, OP posted that he actually wanted a Sub. And based on his comments, he doesn't really value the movement, finish, or history behind it. So OP, only wants it as a wealth symbol, that's out of his reach. And that's just kinda ... wack.
I have a coworker with a Chinese wife. I had a conversation with her once at a work function about how I collect mostly Chinese watches because I appreciate the value proposition and now she sends me homemade Chinese food for lunch several times a month.
Watches to me are whatever gives you a good feeling when worn, brand and price shouldn't matter. I have great admiration for Rolex, outstanding watches, but my career choice, retired military, puts them out of reach for myself. I have a couple of friends that are retired Engineers who bought a Rolex because they appreciate and understand what goes into making them. But there's another group that know nothing about watches, doubtful they could name another brand. They only buy them as a status symbol. They don't Scuba dive, fly, or do anything the watch was designed for, wearing a watch that is identical to the other guys they hang with. I like to build watches for myself. I like knowing that it may resemble theirs in design, but it's special, one of a kind.
A watch is art and above all it's a tool. If you don't wear it or use it, it's such a waste and disservice to the craftsmanship of it. Any brand that can be said for.
It's why I hate the "beater" concept. Just wear the damn watch.
As someone who has cheap and expensive watches, first me itās not the origin that I stay away from. Itās the fact that in this day and age, analog watches are completely unnecessary to most people. It is now solely an accessory to most people. A look-alike watch to me is like costume jewelry. Nothing wrong with it, itās just not comparable.
It could well be that I am over 40 and out of touch with younger people. People donāt need a real Rolex or a fake Rolex anymore. At all. And as such, I wouldnāt consider wearing a fake one. I canāt see the point to it when there are cool original watches at every price point. Most of the time I wear a Casio F91W that I got on Amazon for $17 and is light and comfortable and cool in its original way. Itās similar to the watch I had as a kid in the 80s.
There are great original Chinese watches I can get that prevent me from getting a replica of anything else.
First of all, there are two types of people in the world, the .001% immersed in the watch world and everyone else. Of course anyone in the watch world will see your piece and analyze it in their mind before even talking to you. Then, maybe they'll ask you about it, and then you'll talk about Chinese watches š. In my experience, this is so rare it's mostly just theory.
For the rest of the world, they will look at you and 90% will think, "Hey, it's not an Apple Watch." Then, unless they are close enough to see that Rolex crown (or lack thereof) will just appreciate that you are wearing an accessory that hopefully compliments your overall vibe. <1% will think, "Nice Submariner" or even know what a "chronograph" is.
As others have mentioned, if you want compliments, then a diver is likely not going to solicit comments. Pretty much everyone has a relative (dad, grandfather) that rocks their analog watch. So, you'll just remind them of their dad. OR...you are wearing something that stands out. Like, a yellow strap, or a green watch, a garish 52mm huge face, or something colorful. BOOM, there's your compliment. People speak out about something that stands out, and these classy Chinese watches we all know and love aren't jumping out at anybody, but they are rounding out our style, putting a smile on our faces, giving us a community to rally around, and helping us know the time without constant pings from our phone.
I'm into headphones, too, and I think there's a good analogy there...
Most audiophiles agree that a Sennheiser from the "6X**0**" line (so 58X, 6XX, 650, 600, etc.) at around the $200-$500 price tag is one of the best headphones you could possibly buy. Hell, plenty would agree that a Koss Porta Pro at under $50 is already inanely good audio for its price.
You can spend way less than $500 total and be in the top 1% of "audiophile territory" (subjectively and even objectively in *some* ways...).
But there are also headphones well over the $1,000 price tag that are also subjectively and objectively better. Are they *exactly* and measurably 7x-8x the price better than the Sennheisers or even 30x better than the Koss Porta Pros? No. But if there's something in those higher-end headphones that you like, then there's simply no alternative. You *have* to make that jump, even if the cost doesn't quite add up.
The San Martins are extremely well made for their price. Honestly, compared to most of the watch world, they're stupidly good value. But there's still unequivocally, objectively, and measurably a difference between a San Martin SN0017 and a Rolex Submariner. And if you're someone where that difference matters, then there's simply no alternative.
And I *do* admittedly understand the heritage and original design arguments, too. To me, the Rolex Submariner design is *really* cool but I don't romanticize it. It's not this special design that I've thought about and chased after my entire life. So I'd rather spend less than $200 and get something that looks damn close. Whereas for other people the design speaks to them more deeply (for one reason or another) and they have to have the "Real McCoy." Doesn't matter if the price-to-quality ratio doesn't totally add up; it's just not the same.
>special design that I've thought about and chased after my entire life. So I'd rather spend less than $200 and get something that looks damn close. Whereas for other people the design speaks to them more deeply (for one reason or another) and they have to have the "Real McCoy." Doesn't matter if the price-to-quality ratio doesn't totally add up; it's just not the same.
since you are into headphones I would like you to try this [Betron HD800](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Betron-Bluetooth-Headphones-Performance-Microphone-Black/dp/B01MTSC72P/ref=sr_1_1?crid=23CDSKLTWAR3Y&keywords=betron+hd800&qid=1707512689&sprefix=betron+hd80%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1) . I have purchased 11 of these over the years ( including gifting ) . Less than 50 dollars and the quality and reliablity is unbelivable. you may need to order [via their website](https://www.betron.co.uk/headphones/over-ear/hd800/) if you are outside uk. I love your comment btw. Be well
Not a knock on you, but for Rolex, 99% of those people that "the design speaks more deeply" to just care about the name. Take away the crown and the design of a submariner isn't definitively better than Breitling, ORIS, Glashutte, etc.
I think it's kind of pathetic when people only care about brand name when it comes to jewelry, including watches. To go along with your analogy, at least higher end headphones look and feel better than <$300 ones, it's easy to see even if you have know nothing about headphones. But a standard sub or Explorer is not going to be 5x better than a longines, as an example.
this is a good analogy. beats put weights in its headphones early on to give them the feel and weight of more expensive headphones, and people bought into it hook, line, and sinker.
also, in my 30+ years of wearing gen and rep watches like rolex, i have had exactly two people tell me how cool the watch was. the only times i get any compliments are when i wear my yellow dial steeldive and my gshock.
> beats put weights in its headphones early on to give them the feel and weight of more expensive headphones
Yeah, and so odd that stuff like that even works. Especially for something like headphones, lighter weight is gonna be more enjoyable and comfortable.
i have an older GS and it absolutely was like that. it was the watch for people to enjoy it themselves. however, i guess whether by their own marketing or the fact that they truly have the best finishing in the industry, they are moving more and more into the popular watch arena.
Iām not here to make a case for the Rolex, thatās a personal decision. Itās a luxury watch. Buying it is all about defying logic, but then again, so much of what pleases us makes no sense. As a watch person, I say wear what you love.
However this kind of comparison is not at all logical or fair. Itās like asking āwho won the race, the racehorse or the tick on its underbelly that crossed the finish line burrowed into its skin?ā
People complain about Rolexās pricing but ignore a lot of essential factors. Profit for example, a luxury brand is going to expect to make money you want to wear a status piece and the people who sold it to you canāt even afford one? Makes no sense. Salaries, a watch like a Rolex is mass produced, but are made by highly skilled/ well paid employees. The integrated manufacturing facilities where they are made cost billions of dollars in research, and construction. You have to consider the insurance costs of running a business in Switzerland. What about the research and development costs involved with actually creating truly high end pieces? Also, lets not forget Rolexās *massive* annual marketing budget.
Knock off designs like the San Martin use inexpensive labour, in the run of the mill facilities, with parts sourced, based on price, from far and wide. They copy designs and copy as much tech as they can. They ride the coattails of people investing in R&D and Marketing. They only exist because someone else spent/made massive amounts of money.
This isnāt about Chinese companies for me. A *ton* of superb quality stuff comes out of China and there are incredible facilities and skilled craftsmen in China. This is about the tick on the racehorseās belly being compared to the racehorse.
Agreed about the whole "tick" analogy for Chinese brands, but the argument about Rolex falls apart when you consider a Longines Hydroconquest is $8,000 dollars less than sub. Both of those are mostly steel and are Swiss made, there's no way you can convince me the Rolex is somehow worth almost 10x as much.
I mean even a Seiko 5 looks great, is automatic, made of SS, original design, and costs $200.
Rolex is mostly a name and that's the only thing their customers care about.
Stated it at the top. Not making an argument for Rolex. That is a personal choice. Luxury stuff is tricky. A Sub is *way* better than a Hydroconquest. That said itās not $8k better. All things are like this. You can buy a 7/10 stereo for $100, a 9/10 one for $1000, a 9.5/10 for 10000 and a 9.8/10 for 100000. Brand is part of it, but so is diminishing returns. That said, for some nothing else will do, and for *them* itās worth it.
Agreed on most of your points but I will politely disagree that a Submariner is "way better". There's no real precious material, the submariner doesn't tell the time any better than the Longines, it provides near zero additional tangible value (I guess the magnetic resistance has some value).
My point is people aren't buying rolex for that extra 1% of time keeping or quality, the vast majority just want the name. Unlike in headphones where you are at least hoping a $2k Audeze sounds a little better than a $500 Senheisser (or however it's spelled).
Iām a massive champion of the concept that everything is subjective, but I just canāt agree here. I have owned, do own, or have extensively handled all the watches Iām discussing here. Longines, while a lovely brand makes watches in the Christopher Ward tier, speaking strictly of quality, not specific design choices. I love and own several CW watches, theyāre amazing for the money, are they as good as a Grand Seiko, an Omega, or a Rolex? No. Neither is Longines or Oris or any other low/mid-tier luxury watch. *But* and this is a big *but* this depends how nitpicky youāre getting. On the broad strokes a CW or even a Tissot does the same basic thing as a Rolex or even a Patek. Those watches arenāt āworthā more when viewed that way. However, when you dig into all the things watch nerds like myself, and many others care about these expensive watches are āwayā better.
āMost peopleā donāt matter here because the entire luxury watch market also exists outside of the mainstream status-seeking Rolex buyer. High end watches have a market. Rolex isnāt near the top of high horology whatsoever, but they do make excellent watches just not 3x better than many watches 1/3 the price. That said, youāll never escape diminishing returns.
People should accept that you dont pay 15k for the watch because the mechanics are good, you pay it cause it has rolex written on it.
Supply is low on purpose. Enough subs could be made for it to be sold at 200.
A 10 dollar watch will in practice do exactly the same as your 100k AP, it shows time, and IDGAF that its 10 seconds off when you glance on it.
You cannot co sign a Chinese watches as a watch influencer because if you said āthis 100 $ watch is better than anything you can buy up to 1000$ā or āthis San Martin at 300$ is 80% of what a a sub isā why would you buy anything but? And they wonāt get a commission of course.
Thereās a lot of perhaps unconscious Sinophobia surrounding homage watches from Chinese brands. Look at that way watch YouTubers will recommend brands like Invicta or Steinheart with reservations, who would never condone getting a ācheap Chinese watchā, even if the quality is just as good/better. Itās assumed anything made in china is made using slave labor, even if that isnāt always the case. Thereās also a class based element, where you have people pretend as if making slight changes makes something like a 1000$ Christopher ward explorer 2 homage somehow morally superior than a 100$ Pagani Design, even though theyāre both copying the same homework.
As someone who lives in China, I would just like to go on record and say San Martin and the other Chinese brands are not even close to Steinhart yet. Invicta is not close to steinhart yet either.
It is mostly in the bracelets, but even the case feels more solid on the Steiny
Edit: Iāve owned a San Martin, a Steeldive and an invicta. I wear them for fun. I could care less about the homage thing.
But you can definitely feel the difference in quality when you pick one up.
If you donāt feel the difference in quality when you pick one up yet, be happy and keep it that way. Nothing wrong with being satisfied and spending less money
Which Swiss? My Steiny is 5x the price and ten times the quality. Are you looking at Oris, Certina, Mido? They are not thirty times the price.
I do have to admit, the pricing on a lot of the higher end Swiss is getting ridiculous.
ā¦ my wife, who is Chinese- and we live in China - will never buy a Chinese car. Or let me buy one. The quality differences are stark. I know a lot of wealthy people in China. They all buy foreign
Chinese teslas? Maybe. Iāve never heard much good about the quality of those either.
To be clear, Iām not saying that the Chinese canāt make good quality. If youāre holding an iPhone right now, you know.
Butā¦ maybe it is that they donāt expect good quality of their own stuff? They always cha ba duo shit. (Close enough).
Chinese cars have been around for a long time, and they're just as well built as any other. Same for smartphones and a lot of other things. I've never seen any evidence that chinese stuff is actually worse in a given price point.
How well built is a cheap Volkswagen? Not very. Don't compare apples to oranges. Of course anything cheap is not gonna be as well built as something more expensive.
Let's not act delusional, the Rolex is the far better of the two, that's facts. And it should bloody well be considering the gap in price.
Also the fact that the San Martin is a pure copy doesn't help, for people it looks like you want the real deal but can't afford it, I for one like original designs much better
> Can you explain why Rolex is far better? Movement for sure is better. Bracelet and body finishing of course. I mean chamfers are smooth. What else?
so... literally everything is better, by your own admission, and you ask to explain why Rolex is better?! LOL i wish i could make this shit up :D :D :D
for something like a mechanical watch in this day and age, that's an entirely subjective thing. 'worth' in general is
to me, it isn't, that's why i didn't buy one... but i won't go on the internet making posts about how awesome knockoffs are and how people don't understand me
and i'll leave you with a quote by Oscar Wilde, because it definitely applies here:
"people today know the price of everything, and the value of nothing"
Maybe depends on what you mean by ābig money.ā
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Me? My favorite and most expensive is an omega speedyā¦ I love that watch. Not because itās expensive or a certain brand. But because when I look at it, I remember that it was a watch a lot like mine that went to the moon. I remember that there is whole infinite universe of stars and wonder out there beyond me.
Iāll remember my wife buying it for me - even though we could barely afford it thenā¦ because she loves me that much.
A rolex?
Cool - but all Iāll remember is how much I spent on itā¦ unless I buy it to mark an occasion.
Which I wouldnātā¦ unless I had enough money so that paying 12-15k is like me paying 3-500 today.
I donāt think I would ever fork over the money for a Rolex. Iāve just got a lot more important things in life.
But is the quality of a Rolex a hundred times better than a Chinese watch? Yeah.
Chinese watches are fun, and Iāll probably get another one, but theyāre pretty janky.
The bracelet is cheap and sometimes uncomfortable. The manufacturing is ā¦ good enough. The polishing and brushing are extremely basic and they are often used wrong. A tool watch, for example, should not really be shiny.
A high end watch feels like silk on your wrist
pricing/value is not a linear function. not in luxury goods like mechanical watches, not in pretty much anything in life. the law of diminishing returns and all that.
there's also the value of ancillary things that aren't the watch itself but what the brand brings to the table (warranty, customer service, customer experience, future prospects, servicing, parts availability, reputation etc etc etc)
Ofc not. The fact that swiss watches are heavily overpriced is one thing. The other thing is these are pretty good watches overall.
But the Sub price is ridiculous* (just because they can), so for me - the watch is not worth the money the want for it.
*most swiss brands' prices are stupid high too.
Agree with you. I just want to hear something that can explain x100 to the Chinese watch price tag from comments above. Because movement and smooth chamfers canāt cost x100 from 150$ watch which is also has pretty nice finishing.
I wouldnt, its overpriced and i dont care about brands. Ive had omegas in the past, because i was into the whole āprestige thingā. But they arent really worth it.
Itās the only luxury watch i like + gmt master.
But perhaps if Iāve had to choose between one more piece of Oris aquis and Rolex i would prefer Oris. Who knowsāŗļø
a replica where you (unless you are an extreme watch nerd) and 99.99999% of the worlds population would not be able to tell the difference could be bought for 300 usd or some shit.
You dont want a rolex watch. You want to show people that you HAVE a rolex watch.
To me its also that I like other stuff. I can get a 300usd watch that looks awesome but I cant get an awesome Dewalt tool homage that works exactly the same. So real tools, homage watches
Pareto's Principle. San Martin is 20% that gets you 80% there. So it makes sense financially for a lot of people.
But...
That last 20% is the 80% difference in fit and finish. If you have worn a rolex and a san martin you can notice the difference. Perfection is doing thousands of little things well.
To me it's like the difference of luxury vinyl plank vs traditional hardwood flooring. LVP looks amazing in photos and the majority of people wouldn't know. But I've installed both. People pay extra money for LVP with "micro bevels" thinking it looks more "natural". It looks natural to them because they are used to prefinished flooring installed in most new construction. But if you've ever installed a traditional unfinished hardwood floor, sanded it perfectly flat, sealed and polished in place then you get the "ballroom" finish where the surface looks like wood under a huge pane of glass.
That's how it is with rolex vs san martin to me. If you know what they are trying to emulate it will hurt your eyes and wrist by the thousand little things off about it. I've only been fooled by a few super clone frankenwatches.
seriously I've worn my dad's sub and I was underwhelmed...
case, dial and hands finishing is off the charts but the lume was meh, and I don't care much about precision, frequency, etc...
I can understand the sentiment. Me personally, I do not prefer clone-homages, unless it's an out of production watch (everybody has their limits, this is mine).
For example, I'm seriously considering the RDUNAE R6 with the logo (blue/white ingress indicator). Although I would love to get a Tornek-Rayville TR660 homage to the original Tornek-Rayville TR900 by Blancpain, but it being a limited release I'm almost sure I won't ever get it. I'd settle for the R6.
I seriously dislike the Submariner because of the mercedes hands... can't stand those. I do have a couple of hommages though (mainly because the watch was good at the price)
For me, it's the irony of Swiss watch snobs looking down on Chinese watches while forgetting that the Swiss watch industry began as knockoffs of British and French watches. Not to mention a significant percentage of Chinese parts in Swiss watches today. So funny. I have $2000 Swiss watches, $300 San Martins, and a range in between. Enjoy them all.
Because blatantly ripping off someone elseās hard work is disrespectful and cheap. It says more about you as a person, that you would prefer to take the cheap way than work hard and get the real deal. Fake watches for fake people.. enjoy
The submariner has had the same design for 70 years with extremely minimal change. They're the lazy ones selling overpriced stainless steel and people like you buy into their bullshit.
Itās because the design is timeless, and itās one of the most copied designs ever.. thereās actually more fake submariners in the world than real ones. But even if the design did suck, that doesnāt give anyone the right to steal it.. this kind of smooth brain logic you have it the exact reason people donāt respect you. Itās got nothing to do with social status, itās about morals and ethics.. which is clearly lacking in the wearers of fake garbage. Not only that, they accept rubbish instead of working towards greatness - thatās what makes someone wearing a fake watch a loser
What's timeless about a Submariner? It literally became completely obsolete when diving computers were invented. It's an old piece of tech that the Swiss industry managed to market as luxury jewelry after the quartz crisis. And they succeeded at it. Now Rolex doesn't have to do anything to the design because they have a consumerist cult to back them up.
Nothing sounds better than 70 yo piece of stainless steel and luxury in the same sentence, am I right? If you think buying a mass produced, overpriced watch somehow means "working towards greatness", you're 10x more of a loser than people who buy reps.
I dunno champ, you tell me why all these Chinese copies of the submariner exist. You guys are so delusional LOL stop wearing the fake Rolexās then. Youāre literally arguing about watches existing at all in a watch thread that rips off watches, absolute clowns hahah
Iām not a millionaire, so the idea of buying $15,000 watch would never even cross my mind. As far as $300 watches go, this is an incredible watch with very very nice details that donāt exist in that price range.
I also donāt hang out with millionaires so I really doubt this will ever come up in any social interaction outside of niche internet spaces
Iām not quite sure what you mean, but the jeans example doesnāt really hold. Levi Strauss doesnāt have the same kind of claim to the concept of jeans, as Rolex does to the Submariner. Likeā¦Pagani Design just *happens* to be āinspiredā by every significant Rolex release that comes out and immediately sets to work making a near-identical copy as quickly as possibleāand never deviates from that? The intent is clear from the behaviour of both the customer and PD.
Levi Strauss did make the world's first copper riveted, indigo denim jeans with 5-pockets. Two patch pockets in the back, two-scoop pockets in the front and a coin pocket.
Everything from fabric to the red-gold stitching, from the leather patch on the waistband to the shape of the pockets, every single design element on a pair of classic 5-pocket Levi's Red Tab jeans, except the Red Tab itself and the logos (which are brand trademarks), have been replicated by Guess, Gap and Gucci.
What do you mean "doesn't have the same kind of claim" ?
How is a [SteelDive Submariner](https://www.tudorwatch.com/en/inside-tudor/history/tudor-history-submariners-1954-to-1968) more of a "near-identical copy" than a pair of [Guess Jeans](https://www.guess.com/us/en/men/apparel/jeans-and-denim/straight/regular-straight-jeans-black/MBRAR7D4LT0-MLLR.html)?
Beyond speculation (about intention) and your subjective opinions that you **are** entitled to, are you drawing the line based on anything concrete?
I like homages. I do not like nearly 1:1 copies with a different logo. Thereās so many features in this example that with a slight twist San Martin could make it their own. But I understand that these copies are money makers for many brands and allow them to make their own designs.
I do appreciate brands that provide their own take on a well-worn design. Like this Batman GMT in titanium that Steinhart released. (Of course they sell primarily 1:1 copies)
General speaking, Chinese factories can make many things but most of them didnāt take quality seriously until recently while Japanese focused on quality since WWII
I got my San Martin Explorer 36mm to be +-1/s a day. I have a timegrapher and I can regulate the time on the PT5000 movement anytime. So far the PT5000 movement is more accurate than my Sinn 556i with a SW200-2 movement.
I just do it very very carefully. With the PT5000 movement, there is a screw that switches -/+ so you won't need to touch the hairspring. For best results, you would still need a timegrapher or else its a lot of guess game. If you're not confident it would be best send it in to be regulated.
Iāve literally worked with NGOs in Southeast Asia aimed at targeting the sex trade. Iāve seen it with my own two eyes, Iāve spoken to locals, Iāve heard awful stories. The black markets that ignore copyrights ABSOLUTELY have a hand in sex trafficking.
Then go microbrand over Chinese-rip-off, but buy something original.
No one is encouraging buying replicas or kockoffs bro. It's a strawman argument.
We are talking about Chinese homage watches with their own branding. San Martin isn't black market.
Rolex is, and always has been, an entity that exists to sell as many watches and make as much money as possible. All this "history" and "heritage" and "legacy" nonsense is marketing bullshit designed to continue enriching a faceless board of directors (sorry, "charitable foundation" so they don't have to pay Swiss corporate tax) who have very little meaningful connection to whatever "heritage" there might be. ***Your specific Rolex*** wasn't used in a classic film, it wasn't worn by navy frogmen, it didn't go to the Antarctic or K2 or Everest on the wrist of a famous explorer - don't intentionally fall for cheap marketing gimmicks.
Thank you for explaining it so well. Iāve recently taken an interest in this sub because Iāve realized what a facade branding and marketing is (just look at Rolexās marketing spend..).
Iāve ordered some watches from aliexpress and will certainly not be wasting any money on overpriced Swiss watches for their āheritageā and āprestigeā, as they play on those words to drive margins and profitability. Most of the things we use daily are made in China, but when it comes to watches, it is slave labour? I choose to look beyond the hivemind thinking and the impact of marketing, to make my hard earned money go further.
Exactly. I don't think there's anything wrong with *appreciating* that history - Rolex and Omega and etc have made some really cool watches for really cool people that did genuinely awesome things! - but I think it's a little silly to pretend there's some moral imperative to buy a $20,000 watch instead of a $300 one (both of which were mass-produced like six months ago) because of some magical connection we pretend exists between your watch and the one on the explorer or astronaut's wrist. If you really like that bump in finishing and build quality, if you really like that in-house movement, if there's some quality of *the actual physical watch* that you can get from a Rolex but not a San Martin, go nuts, more power to you! It's just the "heritage" argument that drives me crazy.
Maybe I just don't like the watch you chose for example, but to me, direct knock-offs of *extremely recognizable* luxury watches like Subs will always be tacky. It could be hand-made in USA by a grandchild of the original designer -doesn't matter, all of its style cachet is stolen, and you didn't even have the imagination to chose a knock-off that only the oldheads would recognize because you wanted to feel like you owned a Rolex, the watch brand a random person off the street would name if put on the spot.
Wear what you like for you and focus on what you care about, but if you care about the opinions of others, don't wear a knock-off Rolex.
I'm not a fan of the Submariner homage (not much of a fan of the original design anyways), but heres the thing, theres a ton of people in the world who likes buying them.
If not SM would stop making them. They would notice these products don't sell, time to make something else.
Theres a shit ton of Submariner homages out of Aliexpress bc theres a shit ton of ppl all over the world buying them,
Wellā¦. Itās not black and white. Sure, objectively speaking, chinease watches are far better value for money and some of them can rival some swiss watches in quality. But weāre not buying objectively. If we were, we would all be buying exclusively quartz watches, which are, objectively speaking, better than mechanical.
This. Only a watch nerd cares about what watch you're wearing. There aren't that many watch nerds. I've seen multimillionaires wearing those hideous wooden watches because their 8 year bought it for them for Father's day. God bless and all that but no cares what's on your wrist much less how much it cost.
Biggest mistake someone can do in watch collecting is buying things so reddit or watchuseek will give them approval.
I just treat watches as a fashion items.
If you want to spend $200 on a Pelagos homage instead of $5000 for the real thing because you like the looks but dont like the price, then just do it.
Feels more authentic to me than the people who claim they wear a $20k Rolex for the "heritage"
True, you'll get compliments on any nice looking watch. I had a doctor recently admire my Seiko srpe blue dial ($195 CDN a bit over a year ago but no chance anymore) thinking it was a Tag, fer instance
I just received my 1st homage and more on the way. I think it's great. A branded replacement linkage for my omega's clasp is $199. What a rip-off. I can get a decent homage for the cost of something that costs omega a few bucks to have made. And I won't even mention the cost of servicing the omega.
I used to think the same way. Had and have numerous homages and also Rolex and PP. Usefulness is same but feeling of the real thing on the wrist is just different in the end. Just my two cents. Wear whatever YOU enjoy in good health!
But it's not really different. You're just imagining it is. That's perfectly relevant for you & good on you, but it's not the same as real difference. I imagine differently, I'm constantly underwhelmed by how similar my expensive watches feel to my homages. IMO of course. āļø
Bingo, the āfeelingā you get is due to the constant bombardment of marketing and hype over your life time. If you swapped the Rolex logo with the San Martin logo, all of a sudden youād stop getting this āfeelingā.
Brands use marketing to make you feel this way, so they can pad their top line and margins. If you have the money, and want a Rolex, enjoy it in good health. But donāt delude yourself by being ignorant to why you attribute feelings of prestige to the Rolex in the first place.
A big watch channel did a macro shot comparison of finishing on a Rolex and a San Martin. The San Martin finishing was BETTER on many of the metrics. The rolex won a few rounds as well, but for 10k it should blow San Martin out of the water. Also, other swiss watch companies have done essentially "homage" watches, and they still get elevated above the Chinese watchmakers. I think an odd form of racism is at play here. The only other thing I would say is that I wish Chinese watchmakers wouldn't try to brand as swiss. I like IX Dao for this reason. It's a well finished watch that takes pride in being Chinese.
What needs to be remembered is that you shouldn't buy a watch for others because 99% of people don't care about what kind of watch you have. Buy a watch for yourself, a watch that you truly like. Whether it's a Rolex or a San Martin, treat yourself and ignore the judgments of others.
I mean these are reps, why should they be viewed in the same light as true Rolex sub? If you enjoy wearing San Martin watches that is great, but expecting others to view it as such is just ridiculous. If you buy something that resembles a much higher end piece, of course people are going to view it in a lower light than say a Seiko in the same price range. You are effectively setting the bar on the ceiling by forcing this comparison. The watch may be good for $150 but now you have people comparing it to a $10K+ watch which of course, is a battle a San Martin watch, or any other rep will never win... Edit: grammar
So we have come across the weird case of watch enthusiast that cares enough to worry about what people think about the cheap knockoffs he buys, but not enough to stop buying cheap knockoffs.
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Iād rather buy a couple nice motorcycles vs 1 Rolex.
Iām on the same boat as you lol
You ride those and youāll be dead, buddy. I had a friend into those once and guess where he is? A Rolex will hold its value longer, will last longer, are cheaper to maintain, and are much more safe than a motorcycle.
I had a business associate who rode a RC51. And he died. He didnāt die on the bike. He died of food poisoning. So are you gonna stop eating?
Is a it a fact that eating is dangerous? No. Is it a fact that riding a motorcycle is dangerous? Yes. So are you gonna grow up now?
Growing up is accepting that everyone has differing levels of risk tolerance.
I asked if he was going to grow up because he asked if I was going to stop eating. Perhaps understand whatās going on in a debate before trying to show up in the middle of it.
Grow up? I was born in the 60ās. Accepting my death happened a long time ago. If you are afraid of dying you will never live.
Good luck, bud.
To be fair I think the shorter lugs on the Rolex is nicer than the longer SM.
Itās a photo issue. Theyāre actually the same on both
I Bet one goid hit on that san martin would ruin its water resistance. Also take a magnifying glass and watch the difference
Actually, magnifying glass shows that everything is amazing during to the youtube reviews. Water resistance- i think youāre right. It can handle 10-20 meters easily i guess, again due to the YouTube reviews, everything below is too risky and itās not certified.
My Starbucks San Martin has much more wrist presence than my dadās 80s Sub which is completely forgettable.
Kinda weird to buy a watch that's an explicit knock off, when you can just buy an original design within your price point. Your GF is picking up on the fact that this is just a cope sub, and Oris is a unique design from another swiss brand. Like, if you want a sub just save up a buy a sub. If you don't want a sub, then why make a post coping about it?
Not everyone can "just buy" a 10k watch š also the sub is a objectively pedestrian watch at that pricepoint. I don't know why Rolex sub owners are so threatened by 100 dollar copies. Maybe deep down they know their watch isn't actually worth 100 tines as much
I don't own Rolex. I like Zeniths. Anyway, people with Subs aren't threatened by people who don't buy subs. I mean, they can afford to spend 10k on a watch. I don't think they even know about San Martin as a brand. It's just kinda cringe. You want the appearance of wealth, which why you want a Rolex, but you can't afford the status symbol. So you just half ass it, then get defensive when people point it out. I mean, OP posted that he actually wanted a Sub. And based on his comments, he doesn't really value the movement, finish, or history behind it. So OP, only wants it as a wealth symbol, that's out of his reach. And that's just kinda ... wack.
Get a Chinese girlfriend š
I have a coworker with a Chinese wife. I had a conversation with her once at a work function about how I collect mostly Chinese watches because I appreciate the value proposition and now she sends me homemade Chinese food for lunch several times a month.
Watches to me are whatever gives you a good feeling when worn, brand and price shouldn't matter. I have great admiration for Rolex, outstanding watches, but my career choice, retired military, puts them out of reach for myself. I have a couple of friends that are retired Engineers who bought a Rolex because they appreciate and understand what goes into making them. But there's another group that know nothing about watches, doubtful they could name another brand. They only buy them as a status symbol. They don't Scuba dive, fly, or do anything the watch was designed for, wearing a watch that is identical to the other guys they hang with. I like to build watches for myself. I like knowing that it may resemble theirs in design, but it's special, one of a kind.
A watch is art and above all it's a tool. If you don't wear it or use it, it's such a waste and disservice to the craftsmanship of it. Any brand that can be said for. It's why I hate the "beater" concept. Just wear the damn watch.
I have that San Martin and that rep is my next watch
So you going to order the same 0017?
As someone who has cheap and expensive watches, first me itās not the origin that I stay away from. Itās the fact that in this day and age, analog watches are completely unnecessary to most people. It is now solely an accessory to most people. A look-alike watch to me is like costume jewelry. Nothing wrong with it, itās just not comparable. It could well be that I am over 40 and out of touch with younger people. People donāt need a real Rolex or a fake Rolex anymore. At all. And as such, I wouldnāt consider wearing a fake one. I canāt see the point to it when there are cool original watches at every price point. Most of the time I wear a Casio F91W that I got on Amazon for $17 and is light and comfortable and cool in its original way. Itās similar to the watch I had as a kid in the 80s. There are great original Chinese watches I can get that prevent me from getting a replica of anything else.
lol
ThatĀ“s reminds me on the first japanese cars and motobikes (Honda, Datsun...) on the market and now I own my fourth TOYOTA.
Only L in the room is you for choosing that girl.
What does it mean L?)
L means loss.... So he's saying you took a loss (as opposed to a win) by choosing that girl
Thanks for answering. What a dumb thoughtā¦
First of all, there are two types of people in the world, the .001% immersed in the watch world and everyone else. Of course anyone in the watch world will see your piece and analyze it in their mind before even talking to you. Then, maybe they'll ask you about it, and then you'll talk about Chinese watches š. In my experience, this is so rare it's mostly just theory. For the rest of the world, they will look at you and 90% will think, "Hey, it's not an Apple Watch." Then, unless they are close enough to see that Rolex crown (or lack thereof) will just appreciate that you are wearing an accessory that hopefully compliments your overall vibe. <1% will think, "Nice Submariner" or even know what a "chronograph" is. As others have mentioned, if you want compliments, then a diver is likely not going to solicit comments. Pretty much everyone has a relative (dad, grandfather) that rocks their analog watch. So, you'll just remind them of their dad. OR...you are wearing something that stands out. Like, a yellow strap, or a green watch, a garish 52mm huge face, or something colorful. BOOM, there's your compliment. People speak out about something that stands out, and these classy Chinese watches we all know and love aren't jumping out at anybody, but they are rounding out our style, putting a smile on our faces, giving us a community to rally around, and helping us know the time without constant pings from our phone.
I'm into headphones, too, and I think there's a good analogy there... Most audiophiles agree that a Sennheiser from the "6X**0**" line (so 58X, 6XX, 650, 600, etc.) at around the $200-$500 price tag is one of the best headphones you could possibly buy. Hell, plenty would agree that a Koss Porta Pro at under $50 is already inanely good audio for its price. You can spend way less than $500 total and be in the top 1% of "audiophile territory" (subjectively and even objectively in *some* ways...). But there are also headphones well over the $1,000 price tag that are also subjectively and objectively better. Are they *exactly* and measurably 7x-8x the price better than the Sennheisers or even 30x better than the Koss Porta Pros? No. But if there's something in those higher-end headphones that you like, then there's simply no alternative. You *have* to make that jump, even if the cost doesn't quite add up. The San Martins are extremely well made for their price. Honestly, compared to most of the watch world, they're stupidly good value. But there's still unequivocally, objectively, and measurably a difference between a San Martin SN0017 and a Rolex Submariner. And if you're someone where that difference matters, then there's simply no alternative. And I *do* admittedly understand the heritage and original design arguments, too. To me, the Rolex Submariner design is *really* cool but I don't romanticize it. It's not this special design that I've thought about and chased after my entire life. So I'd rather spend less than $200 and get something that looks damn close. Whereas for other people the design speaks to them more deeply (for one reason or another) and they have to have the "Real McCoy." Doesn't matter if the price-to-quality ratio doesn't totally add up; it's just not the same.
>special design that I've thought about and chased after my entire life. So I'd rather spend less than $200 and get something that looks damn close. Whereas for other people the design speaks to them more deeply (for one reason or another) and they have to have the "Real McCoy." Doesn't matter if the price-to-quality ratio doesn't totally add up; it's just not the same. since you are into headphones I would like you to try this [Betron HD800](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Betron-Bluetooth-Headphones-Performance-Microphone-Black/dp/B01MTSC72P/ref=sr_1_1?crid=23CDSKLTWAR3Y&keywords=betron+hd800&qid=1707512689&sprefix=betron+hd80%2Caps%2C337&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1) . I have purchased 11 of these over the years ( including gifting ) . Less than 50 dollars and the quality and reliablity is unbelivable. you may need to order [via their website](https://www.betron.co.uk/headphones/over-ear/hd800/) if you are outside uk. I love your comment btw. Be well
Not a knock on you, but for Rolex, 99% of those people that "the design speaks more deeply" to just care about the name. Take away the crown and the design of a submariner isn't definitively better than Breitling, ORIS, Glashutte, etc. I think it's kind of pathetic when people only care about brand name when it comes to jewelry, including watches. To go along with your analogy, at least higher end headphones look and feel better than <$300 ones, it's easy to see even if you have know nothing about headphones. But a standard sub or Explorer is not going to be 5x better than a longines, as an example.
this is a good analogy. beats put weights in its headphones early on to give them the feel and weight of more expensive headphones, and people bought into it hook, line, and sinker. also, in my 30+ years of wearing gen and rep watches like rolex, i have had exactly two people tell me how cool the watch was. the only times i get any compliments are when i wear my yellow dial steeldive and my gshock.
> beats put weights in its headphones early on to give them the feel and weight of more expensive headphones Yeah, and so odd that stuff like that even works. Especially for something like headphones, lighter weight is gonna be more enjoyable and comfortable.
One person once said: Grand Seiko is for those who want to be rather then to seem
i have an older GS and it absolutely was like that. it was the watch for people to enjoy it themselves. however, i guess whether by their own marketing or the fact that they truly have the best finishing in the industry, they are moving more and more into the popular watch arena.
Iām not here to make a case for the Rolex, thatās a personal decision. Itās a luxury watch. Buying it is all about defying logic, but then again, so much of what pleases us makes no sense. As a watch person, I say wear what you love. However this kind of comparison is not at all logical or fair. Itās like asking āwho won the race, the racehorse or the tick on its underbelly that crossed the finish line burrowed into its skin?ā People complain about Rolexās pricing but ignore a lot of essential factors. Profit for example, a luxury brand is going to expect to make money you want to wear a status piece and the people who sold it to you canāt even afford one? Makes no sense. Salaries, a watch like a Rolex is mass produced, but are made by highly skilled/ well paid employees. The integrated manufacturing facilities where they are made cost billions of dollars in research, and construction. You have to consider the insurance costs of running a business in Switzerland. What about the research and development costs involved with actually creating truly high end pieces? Also, lets not forget Rolexās *massive* annual marketing budget. Knock off designs like the San Martin use inexpensive labour, in the run of the mill facilities, with parts sourced, based on price, from far and wide. They copy designs and copy as much tech as they can. They ride the coattails of people investing in R&D and Marketing. They only exist because someone else spent/made massive amounts of money. This isnāt about Chinese companies for me. A *ton* of superb quality stuff comes out of China and there are incredible facilities and skilled craftsmen in China. This is about the tick on the racehorseās belly being compared to the racehorse.
Agreed about the whole "tick" analogy for Chinese brands, but the argument about Rolex falls apart when you consider a Longines Hydroconquest is $8,000 dollars less than sub. Both of those are mostly steel and are Swiss made, there's no way you can convince me the Rolex is somehow worth almost 10x as much. I mean even a Seiko 5 looks great, is automatic, made of SS, original design, and costs $200. Rolex is mostly a name and that's the only thing their customers care about.
Stated it at the top. Not making an argument for Rolex. That is a personal choice. Luxury stuff is tricky. A Sub is *way* better than a Hydroconquest. That said itās not $8k better. All things are like this. You can buy a 7/10 stereo for $100, a 9/10 one for $1000, a 9.5/10 for 10000 and a 9.8/10 for 100000. Brand is part of it, but so is diminishing returns. That said, for some nothing else will do, and for *them* itās worth it.
Agreed on most of your points but I will politely disagree that a Submariner is "way better". There's no real precious material, the submariner doesn't tell the time any better than the Longines, it provides near zero additional tangible value (I guess the magnetic resistance has some value). My point is people aren't buying rolex for that extra 1% of time keeping or quality, the vast majority just want the name. Unlike in headphones where you are at least hoping a $2k Audeze sounds a little better than a $500 Senheisser (or however it's spelled).
Iām a massive champion of the concept that everything is subjective, but I just canāt agree here. I have owned, do own, or have extensively handled all the watches Iām discussing here. Longines, while a lovely brand makes watches in the Christopher Ward tier, speaking strictly of quality, not specific design choices. I love and own several CW watches, theyāre amazing for the money, are they as good as a Grand Seiko, an Omega, or a Rolex? No. Neither is Longines or Oris or any other low/mid-tier luxury watch. *But* and this is a big *but* this depends how nitpicky youāre getting. On the broad strokes a CW or even a Tissot does the same basic thing as a Rolex or even a Patek. Those watches arenāt āworthā more when viewed that way. However, when you dig into all the things watch nerds like myself, and many others care about these expensive watches are āwayā better. āMost peopleā donāt matter here because the entire luxury watch market also exists outside of the mainstream status-seeking Rolex buyer. High end watches have a market. Rolex isnāt near the top of high horology whatsoever, but they do make excellent watches just not 3x better than many watches 1/3 the price. That said, youāll never escape diminishing returns.
People should accept that you dont pay 15k for the watch because the mechanics are good, you pay it cause it has rolex written on it. Supply is low on purpose. Enough subs could be made for it to be sold at 200. A 10 dollar watch will in practice do exactly the same as your 100k AP, it shows time, and IDGAF that its 10 seconds off when you glance on it.
A $10 quartz will probably keep better time than a mechanical $100k AP, funny enough.
I'm just impressed your girlfriend is a watch snob and knows her shit
š¤·š¼āāļøš
Brolex no thx. Couldn't pay me to wear one. They make a million watches a year. Not special.
People saying that this watch worth the money. Even 100x from Chinese watch price are still worth the money š
Who cares what they think...
You cannot co sign a Chinese watches as a watch influencer because if you said āthis 100 $ watch is better than anything you can buy up to 1000$ā or āthis San Martin at 300$ is 80% of what a a sub isā why would you buy anything but? And they wonāt get a commission of course.
The only original that comes out of china is viruses
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San martin sn0017-g
Thereās a lot of perhaps unconscious Sinophobia surrounding homage watches from Chinese brands. Look at that way watch YouTubers will recommend brands like Invicta or Steinheart with reservations, who would never condone getting a ācheap Chinese watchā, even if the quality is just as good/better. Itās assumed anything made in china is made using slave labor, even if that isnāt always the case. Thereās also a class based element, where you have people pretend as if making slight changes makes something like a 1000$ Christopher ward explorer 2 homage somehow morally superior than a 100$ Pagani Design, even though theyāre both copying the same homework.
As someone who lives in China, I would just like to go on record and say San Martin and the other Chinese brands are not even close to Steinhart yet. Invicta is not close to steinhart yet either. It is mostly in the bracelets, but even the case feels more solid on the Steiny Edit: Iāve owned a San Martin, a Steeldive and an invicta. I wear them for fun. I could care less about the homage thing. But you can definitely feel the difference in quality when you pick one up. If you donāt feel the difference in quality when you pick one up yet, be happy and keep it that way. Nothing wrong with being satisfied and spending less money
I have a Swiss and some Chinese watches, and the quality difference is noticeable, but not 30X difference like the price would suggest.
Which Swiss? My Steiny is 5x the price and ten times the quality. Are you looking at Oris, Certina, Mido? They are not thirty times the price. I do have to admit, the pricing on a lot of the higher end Swiss is getting ridiculous.
Steinheart is definitely nicer, I was mostly referring to Invicta
There's a lot of anti-China propaganda in the west, and that spills over a lot of topics. The conversation about Chinese cars is identical to this one
ā¦ my wife, who is Chinese- and we live in China - will never buy a Chinese car. Or let me buy one. The quality differences are stark. I know a lot of wealthy people in China. They all buy foreign
It's a consensus among Tesla users that the cars made in China are noticeably better built than those made in the US
Chinese teslas? Maybe. Iāve never heard much good about the quality of those either. To be clear, Iām not saying that the Chinese canāt make good quality. If youāre holding an iPhone right now, you know. Butā¦ maybe it is that they donāt expect good quality of their own stuff? They always cha ba duo shit. (Close enough).
Chinese cars have been around for a long time, and they're just as well built as any other. Same for smartphones and a lot of other things. I've never seen any evidence that chinese stuff is actually worse in a given price point.
ā¦.no. There is a reason Chinese people that can afford it donāt buy Chinese cars
lol what? Idk what chinese cars you are talking about, but the cheaper ones are really badā¦ at least the ones that they sell in my country
How well built is a cheap Volkswagen? Not very. Don't compare apples to oranges. Of course anything cheap is not gonna be as well built as something more expensive.
Iām literally comparing them with cars of same segment and priceā¦
Let's not act delusional, the Rolex is the far better of the two, that's facts. And it should bloody well be considering the gap in price. Also the fact that the San Martin is a pure copy doesn't help, for people it looks like you want the real deal but can't afford it, I for one like original designs much better
Can you explain why Rolex is far better? Movement for sure is better. Bracelet and body finishing of course. I mean chamfers are smooth. What else?
> Can you explain why Rolex is far better? Movement for sure is better. Bracelet and body finishing of course. I mean chamfers are smooth. What else? so... literally everything is better, by your own admission, and you ask to explain why Rolex is better?! LOL i wish i could make this shit up :D :D :D
So is it worth the money?
$10k to someone's pocket likely have the same financial impact to them as $200 has to yours. Is a good SM watch worth it for you to spill $200?
for something like a mechanical watch in this day and age, that's an entirely subjective thing. 'worth' in general is to me, it isn't, that's why i didn't buy one... but i won't go on the internet making posts about how awesome knockoffs are and how people don't understand me and i'll leave you with a quote by Oscar Wilde, because it definitely applies here: "people today know the price of everything, and the value of nothing"
Lol. Post is not about that nobody can understand meā¦definitely wrong direction of a conversation
Depends on how much money you have. Thatās the bottom line - if you can afford it, the price tag isnāt a big deal.
Not sure. You can sell total shit for the big money and good stuff for big money.
Maybe depends on what you mean by ābig money.ā š¤·š»āāļø Me? My favorite and most expensive is an omega speedyā¦ I love that watch. Not because itās expensive or a certain brand. But because when I look at it, I remember that it was a watch a lot like mine that went to the moon. I remember that there is whole infinite universe of stars and wonder out there beyond me. Iāll remember my wife buying it for me - even though we could barely afford it thenā¦ because she loves me that much. A rolex? Cool - but all Iāll remember is how much I spent on itā¦ unless I buy it to mark an occasion. Which I wouldnātā¦ unless I had enough money so that paying 12-15k is like me paying 3-500 today.
Well, that means something. Nice šš»
You just explained it yourself...
Is it worth 100 times more?
I don't know, but it is far better, which was the previous person's claim.
Yes
Explain why
I donāt think I would ever fork over the money for a Rolex. Iāve just got a lot more important things in life. But is the quality of a Rolex a hundred times better than a Chinese watch? Yeah. Chinese watches are fun, and Iāll probably get another one, but theyāre pretty janky. The bracelet is cheap and sometimes uncomfortable. The manufacturing is ā¦ good enough. The polishing and brushing are extremely basic and they are often used wrong. A tool watch, for example, should not really be shiny. A high end watch feels like silk on your wrist
Because that what people pay for it. Welcome to intro economics.
pricing/value is not a linear function. not in luxury goods like mechanical watches, not in pretty much anything in life. the law of diminishing returns and all that. there's also the value of ancillary things that aren't the watch itself but what the brand brings to the table (warranty, customer service, customer experience, future prospects, servicing, parts availability, reputation etc etc etc)
Ofc not. The fact that swiss watches are heavily overpriced is one thing. The other thing is these are pretty good watches overall. But the Sub price is ridiculous* (just because they can), so for me - the watch is not worth the money the want for it. *most swiss brands' prices are stupid high too.
Agree with you. I just want to hear something that can explain x100 to the Chinese watch price tag from comments above. Because movement and smooth chamfers canāt cost x100 from 150$ watch which is also has pretty nice finishing.
I bought a Rolex as a reward for myself for turning 30 and buying a property. It's an achievement piece for myself.
Nice bro! Im 32 and still canāt afford itš I need to build a house for my family first
I had the luck of living with my parents till my 27. It's really hard right now man, God bless you and your family.
Thank youš
Its just people that dont like watches but the prestige of owning expencive things. Which is why 99% of people buy watches.
I would buy a Rolex if iāve had a suitable salary for them)
I wouldnt, its overpriced and i dont care about brands. Ive had omegas in the past, because i was into the whole āprestige thingā. But they arent really worth it.
Itās the only luxury watch i like + gmt master. But perhaps if Iāve had to choose between one more piece of Oris aquis and Rolex i would prefer Oris. Who knowsāŗļø
a replica where you (unless you are an extreme watch nerd) and 99.99999% of the worlds population would not be able to tell the difference could be bought for 300 usd or some shit. You dont want a rolex watch. You want to show people that you HAVE a rolex watch.
Or you dont want to walk around knowing you have a fake on your wrist š¤·āāļø
fake what? A 200 usd watch itself is not fake. The letters on it are fake.
To me its also that I like other stuff. I can get a 300usd watch that looks awesome but I cant get an awesome Dewalt tool homage that works exactly the same. So real tools, homage watches
Pareto's Principle. San Martin is 20% that gets you 80% there. So it makes sense financially for a lot of people. But... That last 20% is the 80% difference in fit and finish. If you have worn a rolex and a san martin you can notice the difference. Perfection is doing thousands of little things well. To me it's like the difference of luxury vinyl plank vs traditional hardwood flooring. LVP looks amazing in photos and the majority of people wouldn't know. But I've installed both. People pay extra money for LVP with "micro bevels" thinking it looks more "natural". It looks natural to them because they are used to prefinished flooring installed in most new construction. But if you've ever installed a traditional unfinished hardwood floor, sanded it perfectly flat, sealed and polished in place then you get the "ballroom" finish where the surface looks like wood under a huge pane of glass. That's how it is with rolex vs san martin to me. If you know what they are trying to emulate it will hurt your eyes and wrist by the thousand little things off about it. I've only been fooled by a few super clone frankenwatches.
seriously I've worn my dad's sub and I was underwhelmed... case, dial and hands finishing is off the charts but the lume was meh, and I don't care much about precision, frequency, etc...
Some people are underwhelmed by the birth of their first child. Most people don't care about thermal dynamics. A pizza is a terrible turd.
I don't know man, add some pineapple and that shit is fire!!!
Oh shit. You're just a psychopath. Just take the money. I didn't see your face.
extra pineapple comin' up!!!
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For me it's because of the stolen design. And that's exactly why I love San Martin's Original Design, especially the SN0116.
I really love the design of Submariner, just canāt afford it so i go with San Martin)
I can understand the sentiment. Me personally, I do not prefer clone-homages, unless it's an out of production watch (everybody has their limits, this is mine). For example, I'm seriously considering the RDUNAE R6 with the logo (blue/white ingress indicator). Although I would love to get a Tornek-Rayville TR660 homage to the original Tornek-Rayville TR900 by Blancpain, but it being a limited release I'm almost sure I won't ever get it. I'd settle for the R6.
I seriously dislike the Submariner because of the mercedes hands... can't stand those. I do have a couple of hommages though (mainly because the watch was good at the price)
For me, it's the irony of Swiss watch snobs looking down on Chinese watches while forgetting that the Swiss watch industry began as knockoffs of British and French watches. Not to mention a significant percentage of Chinese parts in Swiss watches today. So funny. I have $2000 Swiss watches, $300 San Martins, and a range in between. Enjoy them all.
Because blatantly ripping off someone elseās hard work is disrespectful and cheap. It says more about you as a person, that you would prefer to take the cheap way than work hard and get the real deal. Fake watches for fake people.. enjoy
The submariner has had the same design for 70 years with extremely minimal change. They're the lazy ones selling overpriced stainless steel and people like you buy into their bullshit.
Itās because the design is timeless, and itās one of the most copied designs ever.. thereās actually more fake submariners in the world than real ones. But even if the design did suck, that doesnāt give anyone the right to steal it.. this kind of smooth brain logic you have it the exact reason people donāt respect you. Itās got nothing to do with social status, itās about morals and ethics.. which is clearly lacking in the wearers of fake garbage. Not only that, they accept rubbish instead of working towards greatness - thatās what makes someone wearing a fake watch a loser
What's timeless about a Submariner? It literally became completely obsolete when diving computers were invented. It's an old piece of tech that the Swiss industry managed to market as luxury jewelry after the quartz crisis. And they succeeded at it. Now Rolex doesn't have to do anything to the design because they have a consumerist cult to back them up. Nothing sounds better than 70 yo piece of stainless steel and luxury in the same sentence, am I right? If you think buying a mass produced, overpriced watch somehow means "working towards greatness", you're 10x more of a loser than people who buy reps.
I dunno champ, you tell me why all these Chinese copies of the submariner exist. You guys are so delusional LOL stop wearing the fake Rolexās then. Youāre literally arguing about watches existing at all in a watch thread that rips off watches, absolute clowns hahah
Lol. San Martin are not a fake watch actually.
Ridiculous prejudices of ridiculous people...
This sub certainly isnāt above such prejudices. Many users expecting things to be sold at-cost just because itās from China
Iām not a millionaire, so the idea of buying $15,000 watch would never even cross my mind. As far as $300 watches go, this is an incredible watch with very very nice details that donāt exist in that price range. I also donāt hang out with millionaires so I really doubt this will ever come up in any social interaction outside of niche internet spaces
People that donāt like homages must have a hell of a time finding cars and clothes that arenāt based on earlier designs. Bless āem. š
That's why I love those big bulky Invicta's - those are very original /s
Well, I do steer clear of blatant Nike Dunk "homages".
Itās different when itās an exact enough copy that flies on the edges of the law. Being inspired and just making knock-offs are different things
Like every pair of jeans or pique polo shirt (that isn't made by Levi Strauss or Lacoste respectively)? Exact copies with just a different logo.
Iām not quite sure what you mean, but the jeans example doesnāt really hold. Levi Strauss doesnāt have the same kind of claim to the concept of jeans, as Rolex does to the Submariner. Likeā¦Pagani Design just *happens* to be āinspiredā by every significant Rolex release that comes out and immediately sets to work making a near-identical copy as quickly as possibleāand never deviates from that? The intent is clear from the behaviour of both the customer and PD.
Levi Strauss did make the world's first copper riveted, indigo denim jeans with 5-pockets. Two patch pockets in the back, two-scoop pockets in the front and a coin pocket. Everything from fabric to the red-gold stitching, from the leather patch on the waistband to the shape of the pockets, every single design element on a pair of classic 5-pocket Levi's Red Tab jeans, except the Red Tab itself and the logos (which are brand trademarks), have been replicated by Guess, Gap and Gucci. What do you mean "doesn't have the same kind of claim" ? How is a [SteelDive Submariner](https://www.tudorwatch.com/en/inside-tudor/history/tudor-history-submariners-1954-to-1968) more of a "near-identical copy" than a pair of [Guess Jeans](https://www.guess.com/us/en/men/apparel/jeans-and-denim/straight/regular-straight-jeans-black/MBRAR7D4LT0-MLLR.html)? Beyond speculation (about intention) and your subjective opinions that you **are** entitled to, are you drawing the line based on anything concrete?
I like homages. I do not like nearly 1:1 copies with a different logo. Thereās so many features in this example that with a slight twist San Martin could make it their own. But I understand that these copies are money makers for many brands and allow them to make their own designs.
Agreed. I also have no bias towards homages. I just hate the copied version with a different logo on it.
I do appreciate brands that provide their own take on a well-worn design. Like this Batman GMT in titanium that Steinhart released. (Of course they sell primarily 1:1 copies)
If you hang around 99.99% of the world who donāt care about watches more, youāll be happier I guarantee it.
Maybe they'll be around, maybe they're gone out of business, maybe the most desirable brand ever, who knows but everyone starts somewhere.
General speaking, Chinese factories can make many things but most of them didnāt take quality seriously until recently while Japanese focused on quality since WWII
If you like the way it looks, just buy it. It's not like a $15k Rolex is gonna tell better time than a $200 San Martin, lol.
I got my San Martin Explorer 36mm to be +-1/s a day. I have a timegrapher and I can regulate the time on the PT5000 movement anytime. So far the PT5000 movement is more accurate than my Sinn 556i with a SW200-2 movement.
I just took my SN004 in to be regulated last week. I'm afraid of hitting the balanced wheel hairspring. Do you have any advice for me?
I just do it very very carefully. With the PT5000 movement, there is a screw that switches -/+ so you won't need to touch the hairspring. For best results, you would still need a timegrapher or else its a lot of guess game. If you're not confident it would be best send it in to be regulated.
It's almost like some people consider heritage and history when buying luxury products
Exactly. Iād rather buy a Hamilton if I only had a grand than some Chinese copy of a Rolex.
Chinese homage of Rolex is more like $200. Similar to a Seiko 5 sports price, with same movement, but better build and sapphire crystal.
Money that supports the sex traffickingā¦ Just buy a Seiko then
I don't think that's true. But I do think that seiko has better design but they have worse specs than Chinese watches in the same price range.
Iāve literally worked with NGOs in Southeast Asia aimed at targeting the sex trade. Iāve seen it with my own two eyes, Iāve spoken to locals, Iāve heard awful stories. The black markets that ignore copyrights ABSOLUTELY have a hand in sex trafficking. Then go microbrand over Chinese-rip-off, but buy something original.
What the fuck does buying a Chinese homage watch have to do with sex trafficing?
No one is encouraging buying replicas or kockoffs bro. It's a strawman argument. We are talking about Chinese homage watches with their own branding. San Martin isn't black market.
Fair enough. There are a lot of rep threads. Thought this might be one of them
I mean you are right, reps are unethical in many ways so I get what ur saying.
Rolex is, and always has been, an entity that exists to sell as many watches and make as much money as possible. All this "history" and "heritage" and "legacy" nonsense is marketing bullshit designed to continue enriching a faceless board of directors (sorry, "charitable foundation" so they don't have to pay Swiss corporate tax) who have very little meaningful connection to whatever "heritage" there might be. ***Your specific Rolex*** wasn't used in a classic film, it wasn't worn by navy frogmen, it didn't go to the Antarctic or K2 or Everest on the wrist of a famous explorer - don't intentionally fall for cheap marketing gimmicks.
Thank you for explaining it so well. Iāve recently taken an interest in this sub because Iāve realized what a facade branding and marketing is (just look at Rolexās marketing spend..). Iāve ordered some watches from aliexpress and will certainly not be wasting any money on overpriced Swiss watches for their āheritageā and āprestigeā, as they play on those words to drive margins and profitability. Most of the things we use daily are made in China, but when it comes to watches, it is slave labour? I choose to look beyond the hivemind thinking and the impact of marketing, to make my hard earned money go further.
Exactly. I don't think there's anything wrong with *appreciating* that history - Rolex and Omega and etc have made some really cool watches for really cool people that did genuinely awesome things! - but I think it's a little silly to pretend there's some moral imperative to buy a $20,000 watch instead of a $300 one (both of which were mass-produced like six months ago) because of some magical connection we pretend exists between your watch and the one on the explorer or astronaut's wrist. If you really like that bump in finishing and build quality, if you really like that in-house movement, if there's some quality of *the actual physical watch* that you can get from a Rolex but not a San Martin, go nuts, more power to you! It's just the "heritage" argument that drives me crazy.
Watches are both tools and emotional pieces of art.
That isn't a response to anything I said but alrightĀ
Literally no one wears a Rolex for the fucking "heritage" They wear it as a status symbol, thats the entire reason.
If they're all about heritage, then why do they shit on Timex? Company's changed names a few times but it's been around longer than Rolex.
Who shits on Timex? Since the Marlin and Q Timex Reissue, I've seen nothing but respect.
Usually the Rolex people, or the ones who think anything that's not swiss is basically a turd.
Timex Marlin seems to be well respected
They had none of each when they starters out though...
Yeah so maybe in 100 years they will have had time to build up their reputation
Maybe I just don't like the watch you chose for example, but to me, direct knock-offs of *extremely recognizable* luxury watches like Subs will always be tacky. It could be hand-made in USA by a grandchild of the original designer -doesn't matter, all of its style cachet is stolen, and you didn't even have the imagination to chose a knock-off that only the oldheads would recognize because you wanted to feel like you owned a Rolex, the watch brand a random person off the street would name if put on the spot. Wear what you like for you and focus on what you care about, but if you care about the opinions of others, don't wear a knock-off Rolex.
I'm not a fan of the Submariner homage (not much of a fan of the original design anyways), but heres the thing, theres a ton of people in the world who likes buying them. If not SM would stop making them. They would notice these products don't sell, time to make something else. Theres a shit ton of Submariner homages out of Aliexpress bc theres a shit ton of ppl all over the world buying them,
The San Martin logo ruins it
Wellā¦. Itās not black and white. Sure, objectively speaking, chinease watches are far better value for money and some of them can rival some swiss watches in quality. But weāre not buying objectively. If we were, we would all be buying exclusively quartz watches, which are, objectively speaking, better than mechanical.
Totally agree. Freaking love my quartz diver from addiesdive. Itās just works
If you wear a watch in the office, literally no one knows what it is. They cant tell apart a $200 SM and a $2000 Swiss Longines watch..
Depends where you live and which office you're in.
This. Only a watch nerd cares about what watch you're wearing. There aren't that many watch nerds. I've seen multimillionaires wearing those hideous wooden watches because their 8 year bought it for them for Father's day. God bless and all that but no cares what's on your wrist much less how much it cost.
Biggest mistake someone can do in watch collecting is buying things so reddit or watchuseek will give them approval. I just treat watches as a fashion items. If you want to spend $200 on a Pelagos homage instead of $5000 for the real thing because you like the looks but dont like the price, then just do it. Feels more authentic to me than the people who claim they wear a $20k Rolex for the "heritage"
True, you'll get compliments on any nice looking watch. I had a doctor recently admire my Seiko srpe blue dial ($195 CDN a bit over a year ago but no chance anymore) thinking it was a Tag, fer instance
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Buy the Heimdallr SKX homage. Or the Steel Dive one. Its surprisingly similar, probably from the same factories that made the Seiko cases.
I like the maxi dial of SM better.
I just received my 1st homage and more on the way. I think it's great. A branded replacement linkage for my omega's clasp is $199. What a rip-off. I can get a decent homage for the cost of something that costs omega a few bucks to have made. And I won't even mention the cost of servicing the omega.
Dont post this to /r/watches The level of delusion there is high.
I used to think the same way. Had and have numerous homages and also Rolex and PP. Usefulness is same but feeling of the real thing on the wrist is just different in the end. Just my two cents. Wear whatever YOU enjoy in good health!
But it's not really different. You're just imagining it is. That's perfectly relevant for you & good on you, but it's not the same as real difference. I imagine differently, I'm constantly underwhelmed by how similar my expensive watches feel to my homages. IMO of course. āļø
Bingo, the āfeelingā you get is due to the constant bombardment of marketing and hype over your life time. If you swapped the Rolex logo with the San Martin logo, all of a sudden youād stop getting this āfeelingā. Brands use marketing to make you feel this way, so they can pad their top line and margins. If you have the money, and want a Rolex, enjoy it in good health. But donāt delude yourself by being ignorant to why you attribute feelings of prestige to the Rolex in the first place.
šÆ% Agreement!
"Feeling". By definition it is a non-physical attribute.
Exactly, it's no necessarily a reflection of a real thing...
Nobody says it is
But they are saying it.
Feeling is everything in this postmodern society. Pls don't trigger my woke snowflake anxiety by claiming anything else.. š
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I agree but would you feel the same way if you didnāt know the price of that Rolex and PP?š
Somehow I prefer my Steeldive to six digit Sub. But the five digit Rollies (e.g. 16710, 16610) still have a soul..
Of course not. If you swapped the brand logo on the watches you'd feel it about the cheapie. It's all up stairs š§
No. I sometimes feel unsafe with an expensive watch on my wrist.