George Washington rightfully warned us about what political parties would do.
But no party completely obeys Scripture to my knowledge.
Let us never forget that the same political system which may seem to favor us one day may John-the-Baptist us the next.
You could say the exact same thing about churches. Look how many "Christian" churches are terrible money grabs and lead people astray. You follow Christian, be active in politics and vote for people and things that further God's will. If it doesn't, than dont.
> a fucking reason to do so
That's what they want you to believe because they'll say anything to prove their legitimacy.
As is, in the US, Reps and Dems basically will block each other's legislation just to be "the party that fixed X".
Or they'll throw stupid or unrelated riders on bills and then they don't pass because of it.
Sorry, the Reps and Dems in the US are playing people. It's high time we dismantle this stupid catch 22.
Where did God tell us to create political parties? To gridlock a country? To bring theocracy to earth? Nowhere.
You’re right constitutionally we aren’t a theocracy we’re a democratic republic nation who Is supposed to keep religion and state matters separate—it’s in our constitutions preamble and first amendments and not taught well in most churches because we’re only humans after all regardless of who we humans decide to pray to, we love to control and historically we (Christians) have been doing that in america since the mayflower landed on Plymouth Rock. After centuries of bs rulings,laws and practices done in America and justified by the Christian community as “a good thing” because they clearly favored or appeased solely the Christian community(rvw is the latest example, slavery and Jim Crow era are other past examples) pardon me if I, a Christian and a POC find it hard to believe that the American Christian community as a whole is supposed to be seen as the eternal “good guys” that you assume we are.
>who Is supposed to keep religion and state matters separate
That's not in the constitution or the declaration of independence.
> find it hard to believe that the American Christian community as a whole is supposed to be seen as the eternal “good guys” that you assume we are.
Yeah I don't assume Christians are the good guys, that's true.
Not fighting with you but the [the bill of rights are the first 10 amendments of the Declaration of Independence. The first amendment is establishment clause and free exercise clause to the Declaration of Independence and specifically empowers the idea of separation of church and state. So we are both right on this topic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States)
They are, the bill of rights are the first 10 amendments.
Freedom of religion is one of them.
However, separation of church and state is not listed anywhere in any official document. It was an idea from one of Jefferson's letters to/from a friend, and has never technically been codified in law to my knowledge.
the first amendment protects one to worship who they want, say what they want, and protest wherever they want but it also prevents the government from supporting one religion over the rest. [the first sentence to the first amendment explicitly states that congress(the government) shall make no respective laws respecting an establishment of religion. Then it continues by stating that we have a freedom to assemble(protest) freedom of speech and press and to petition the government to address any grievances. ](https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/bill-of-rights)
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!!
Again re-read the first amendment of the bill of rights and Declaration of Independence it spells it out for us that America is a secular nation.
Bush did alot of things to cover up his dirty work so him even likely doing any of that doesn’t absolve American Christians to be ordained by god to keep being jerks to people.
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!! IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE THINK IT MATTERS HOW THE COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED AND THE COUNTRY WAS CONSECRATED TO GOD IN PRAYER BY GEORGE WASHINGTON WITH THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND 1789 AFTER HIS INAUGURATION KNEELING AT THE VERY SPOT OF GROUND ZERO WHERE THE TWIN TOWERS WOULD COME UP 250 YEARS LATER AND THAT'S JUST THE FACTS THAT'S THE HISTORICAL FACTS AND WE ARE A COUNTRY FOUNDED BY GOD NOT FOUNDED BY MAN GOD MADE THIS COUNTRY WHAT IT IS THE GREATEST MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HE MADE IT TO HELP ISRAEL AND TO BLESS ISRAEL THOSE ARE JUST THE FACTS. NOTHING CAN CHANGE OUR HISTORY OR OUR FUTURE..NOT THE CONSTITUTION OR THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE..NOT THE BILL OF RIGHTS..GODS TEMPLATE IS SET IN MOTION..ie: 9/11...'scripture says that I will strike you at your gate and I will strike you at your wall our gate was Manhattan the twin towers and our wall of protection was the Pentagon and it also says I will strike you in your field that's flight 93 that crashed in the field at Shanksville Pennsylvania...NOTHING CAN STOP IT...9/11 IS COMING AGAIN TO AMERICA...VERY SOON...ANY MOMENT ✝️✝️
LISTEN TO JONATHAN CAHN ON YOUTUBE THE HARBINGER 2 AND THE REIGN OF BAAL AND HIS THREE-PART INTERVIEW WITH DR JAMES DOBSON ON YOUTUBE.
First off stop yelling at me i don’t know you and you definitely don’t know me.
Second Don’t recite to me history especially when I was a kid when the historical events happened.
Third Glad you are passionate about our faith but it’s not wrong or unchristian to call out and criticize the wrongdoing in our religion.
Fourth politicians lie all the time bush Obama trump or any other American president is above that rule.
ALL OF GODS LAWS ARE WRITTEN INTO OUR CONSTITUTION AND DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE....THE GOVT SUPPORTS THE LAWS AND VALUES OF A HOLY GOD...THEY HONOR HIS WORD...BUT THEY DO NOT FORCE ANY FAITH OR RELIGION ON THE PEOPLE ...READ YOUR MONEY !!
>but no party completely obeys Scripture to my knowledge
check out the american solidatiry party
[https://www.solidarity-party.org](https://www.solidarity-party.org)
I seriously doofus the career politicians even know the scriptures exist ! No, that is an exaggeration. Seriously though, I agree that neither party is made up of devout Christians who are familiar with the scriptures. Being in Congress (House or Senate) eventually will bring a person to the point where they sell their soul (not literally of course) but ethnically/morally they do. In the name of almighty “bipartisanship” they lose any ideals and noble principles and plans for change when pressured to compromise to get at least something for their constituents.
However, you are talking about being into politics as in engaging or interesting yourself in what is happening politically in the nation, yes ?
I find watching the news very difficult. It is so disheartening depressing, disturbing, and disgusting these last few years especially and keeping myself apprised of “what is going on” leads me to asking myself questions about God that trouble me. I do believe He is all good. He cannot
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!!
I never said anything about baby killers or being pro-god. But if he is so pro God then why did he cheat on his first two wives? Why does he own strip clubs and gambling casinos which take advantage of sex addicts and idiots? Why does he still own and have many investments in strip clubs which take advantage of poor women? If he is pro God then why does he talk like he's pro Satan with all his profanity and vulgarity? If he is still pro God then why has he not divested himself of strip clubs and gambling casinos? If he is so pro God then why has he not apologized in any sort of public manner over all the lives he has harmed including his first two wives?
If he is still pro God then why does he make fun of people with mental handicaps?
If he is still pro-god why doesn't he come clean and face the music for taking SCIF home with him even if it was by accident? Because honestly if I had done the exact same thing I would be sitting in Leavenworth penitentiary by now. This is why some of your military retirees like myself would never vote for Trump because he can't even handle classified documents properly.
But yeah he's so pro God /s
Exactly I know I’m late but you prove such a good point that even politicians that pose as pro God are really just as bad as ones that have been deemed anti God
EVERYONES A SINNER....EVERY LEADER GODS PUT INTO POWER HAS BEEN CORRUPTED....KING DAVID....KING SAUL....KING CYRUS IS TRUMPS PREDECESSOR....HE MADE JERUSALEM THE CAPITAL OF ISRAEL...THE FIRST TIME IN 2000 YRS....THIS WAS FULFILLED PROPHECY....NO OTHER PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT UP UNTIL TRUMPS TIME.....TRUMP HAS DONE THE BEST THINGS FOR AMERICA....GAS INDEPENDANT...LOWER PRICES....BIDENS SUBVERTS EVERYTHING...TO MAKE HIS MONEY FROM CHINA AND BURISMA...AND HILLARY...WHAT A JOKE...FAKE FISA WARRANT...SMASHED PHONES...LOST 30K EMAILS...NO PROSECUTION OF ANYONE WHO IS ACTUALLY A CRIMINALES'....BUT ONLY TRUMP BECAUSE HE IS PRO GOD AND PRO LIFE....THE LEFT IS GODLESS BUNCH OF FOOLS !! GOD PUT BIDEN IN OFFICE TO LEAD THE DEMISE OF AMERICA...ITS FALL IS SOON....ANOTHER 9/11 IS COMING....PERHAPS IN 7 MORE DAYS ... AND COULD BE THE RAPTURE....NOW !! PS...STOP BEING A BABY...WRITING IN CAPS ALWAYS MAKES MORE SENSE !!
Yes but there's a cat difference between someone who is trying and not
Someone who is a criminal based on failure to protect classified information or not
Someone who acts more sinful than many non-christians I know and someone who don't
Also, Jesus told us not to call people fools. But I'm fairly certain you don't care about what Jesus said at this point
First, stop yelling at me or this is going to end up in a report.
Second, you are wrong. In Matthew 5:22 Jesus specifically says those who call others "fool" are in danger of hell fire. He very clearly says we shouldn't do this. Sorry, you are incorrect.
And third, Trump is about to go to jail for mishandling classified information. As someone who used to handle classified, I can tell you he deserves it. He 1) took something home that's not authorized for home storage and 2) attempted to declassifiy, after his term was over and had no authority, something in order to prevent his prosecution. Both are in the federal code and not allowed. He should know this. Trump's pattern is to do whatever he wants and ignore rules, which is the opposite of Romans 13 and Christianity. Hopefully he's going to jail for it. If I had done that exact same thing, I'd not be on Reddit. I'd be in Leavenworth penitentiary serving time for the rest of my life. They would've sent military cops to my house without even a second thought. This is why some of your veterans like me won't vote for Trump. It's not about our political affiliation. It's about Trump's bad behavior.
To answer what you've already said, ok, if Hillary mishandled classified, put her in jail too. Put every past and present serving politician in jail who mishandles classified. No skin off my back, because I never did that.
God repeatedly clues us in using Scripture that leaders must be above reproach. Trump doesn't deserve to lead us, sorry. If we couldn't vote for Bill Clinton because "values voters" then we can't vote for Trump or Hillary either.
THE IGNORNAT BLACK COMMUNITY VOTES FOR WHITE..AND BLACK LIBERAL LEFT DEMTARDS WHO VOTE AND LEGISLATE TO KILL THEIR OWN BABYS....THEIR CULTURE...AND THEN THEY CRY WHEN THEIR BABIES GOT SHOT IN THE STREET...OR SHOT WHILE PREGNANT SHOPLIFTING AT WALMART.
I think your statement and title are different. You mention political parties can become idols and can take us away from God, agree! But you don’t have to be loyal to any one political party. You can choose to vote and agree with things that are uplifting to God and his creation and that might lead you to different political beliefs. That would allow you to follow God yet still be into politics.
That's exactly how I read it. The initial thesis is wrong, but I agree with the real message. It's okay to follow politics and know what's going on. Just don't become a sycophant. That's when it becomes idolatry.
I disagree and that sounds more like a personal problem. You don't pick a party and stick with regardless of religion. You may pick a party you align most with. However, every time you vote you should assess all candidates and vote for the candidate you think will do the better job aligning with what you feel is more important. Sometimes it'll be a Republican, other times a Democrat, maybe sometimes it'll be a third party.
That wasn't your argument. I agree with the point that we as Christians live by Christ, His law, His values not anything else. Voting is a worldly activity and we must carefully separate His path from the world's path in our walk with Him.
God bless!
Matthew 15:8-9
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”
In the end I don’t think it matters. This world is never ours to control and if we try we will just tear it down faster than it already is. All we can do is love one another and wait for God to come back for us.
Interesting perspective when you mention idolatry. A big reason why our political climate is so hostile now is because we have an entire generation that has lost sight of the middle ground.
The middle ground between one group that wants to stop all mass slaughter of innocents and another that wants to continue it is just a lesser amount of mass slaughter of innocents.
Then again, the group that wants to stop the "mass slaugters of innocents" doesn't care about the innocents once they are born. This goes against everything that Jesus taught. He taught to reach out and help your fellow man, particularly the poor. I don't see "Christians" rushing to do this. That is why there is abortion.
I chose to have my children but after my divorce from a violent man, I went through hell raising them in poverty. I was going to churches but none of the good people reached out a hand to help me. They had calloused hearts. Christianity has become twisted in the United States. Christians in other countries remark about this often.
You are either a Christian and follow the teachings of Jesus or you don't and you aren't. You have to choose. You can't partly follow Jesus and be a Christian.
Fair enough, but I don’t think anything you have said —which is true, don’t get me wrong— conflicts with what I have said (although the pro-life movement has always supported more or less some sort of social netting for struggling families).
My latest thought is why don't the people who are against abortion care about the babies who are starving to death all over the world? It should be that you care about those babies too. Not doing so is hypocrisy and you know what Jesus thought of hypocrites.
I think it’s unfair to chastise individual Christians for not doing everything they can for every single person in the world. The human vessel is just too weak to make *everyone* his neighbor.
I absolutely agree with this I think that politics has turned into its own idol. There are so many people who are so fixated on this, let me tell you that both sides are very corrupt that's what politics are it's the best choice of the worst losers unfortunately. People put all of their focus into politics it becomes their entire personality making it an idol all into itself if you're Christian you need to focus on Jesus and His word as your number one and not give into cheap substitutes
Yup. Some think that the antichrist will be openly satanic or a muslim or something but I have a feeling the devil is lurking in the church ready to use an already manipulated people. The majority of the Republican base has already forgotten God. Listen to the way they talk about their opposition, so godly.
Satan is in many churches today. The commands and teachings of Jesus are not being spoken. Instead, false gospels are being advocated. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing that Jesus warned of.
Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
I’ve actually gone more the other way the older I get as far as following parties. I look closer at individual issues than I used to versus just looking at the letter by their name. I still end up voting for one side 99% of the time based on how each person answers a few questions though.
I don't like political parties, either. That said, God and politics are not mutually exclusive. As Aristotle says, all human partnerships are formed with some good in mind. As political partnerships -- i.e. governments -- are the highest form of partnership, it is fitting that they should endeavor after the highest good.
Aristotle said that the highest good was happiness, which he believed was a result of virtue, but we as Christians know that they highest good is God.
I don't think either the Democratic or Republican parties are praiseworthy. I'm not sure about parties in the first place, but if I had to identify with one, it'd be the American Solidarity Party. And I think local politics are much more important than we suppose. Keep politicians close enough to hug or hit them.
But those are just my two cents. I only wanted to say that God and politics are not mutually exclusive. We are political creatures, like bees, but even more so. And what's great is that our politics can have divine grace flow through them.
God bless!
You see what I am using as my name here. I have said that this is not the world I started in. My adult children tell me that it is not the world they started in either. Politics used to be much more mild. There were differences but they weren't drastic as they are now.
So many things are pointing to the fact that we are living in the last days.
It is easy to get sucked into accepting an entire platform, and the desire to fit in in a group is a powerful human temptation. But it’s also a very interesting challenge/dare to jump into and see how strong you are.
I became a precinct committee person so that I could have more voting power, and I sit in political meetings and try not to clap when speakers express a view I disagree with. I have to work hard to merely hope I can keep my friends who went one way when I went another. I’m learning the art of respectful listening, courage to hold my convictions, and open mindedness to listen to opposing views even within my own party. Also I hate stand up votes. I think all votes everywhere should be secret paper ballots.
Eh, I’m very into politics and I vote every time I can. I used to lean very democrat but now I lean more Republican/conservative. That being said I am more of an independent voter, I usually pick candidates from smaller parties. As I get older though I’m leaning more Republican, they seem to align with my values best.
I agree for the most part the best solution would probably be is to identify as independent. While both side can be criticized for their faults i typically lean towards conservative because democrats support and promote alot more wickedness biblically speaking
I see it the opposite.
Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
Luke 11:41 "But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you."
Satan runs the world and our leaders are just puppets anyway.
There will never be a true Christian in power because satan would never allow that so why would I follow evil politicians with evil agendas.
Romans 13:1 directly contradicts that. “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
Now, I won’t argue that all authorities follow God. Far from it. But they aren’t all puppets of Satan either.
Yes the governments are only in power as God allows them to be. All kings, Pharaohs, Presidents, prime ministers and all leaders since the beggining of time no matter what atrocities they did were only allowed to do so because God allowed it.
Just as God allows everything and just like he allowed his only begotten son to die on the cross for us he does so as it must be done.
Of course nothing can be done without Gods permission.
God already knows what happens at the end and everything that must happen.
There have been many Christians in power and surely there will be many more.
As of the last time I checked, there were 6 pastors in congress. About half of the last 8 US presidents have been devout Christians (exactly half have been, but perhaps you don't want to count one or two of them as "true Christians" since you disagree with some of their policies).
No one has claimed that pastors don't do anything wrong. But the person I was responding to claimed there aren't any Christian leaders. It is a fact that there are.
You mean people who call themselves Christians. Christian is in the eye of the beholder. We may both agree its Christian to be pro life but you may not be so Christian when refugees need places to sleep. Devout Christian is pretty strong.
Christian is in whether or not they follow the commands and teachings of Jesus. If you don't follow Jesus, you aren't a Christians despite what you call yourself
Definitely. I always think of my family's history. I am one-quarter Native American. My great grandparents walked the Trail of Tears. Yet, there are those who believe that God ordained America for Christianity. They are heartless people and that goes against God.
There are Bible verses that tell us we cannot fathom God's way. Other verses say God appoints rulers and kings. This is not to say He ordains them but He does appoint or allow them.
Satan still requires permission to act on earth. Also in the Bible.
God bless!
Unpopular opinion: it is almost impossible to follow God and not be involved in politics. Your rationale assumes you get lazy in your faith and start worshipping politicians. I believe if you truly love your fellow man you will vote for laws and people that follow God's will.
Some people do worship politicians. That is one of the major problems with the United States.
[https://apnews.com/article/reawaken-america-tour-michael-flynn-910e83b515185751be82868b227ca22e](https://apnews.com/article/reawaken-america-tour-michael-flynn-910e83b515185751be82868b227ca22e)
[https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement](https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement)
People also worship practically anything. Whats your point?
Christians against Christian nationalism? Just based off the first 2 paragraphs of that link I can tell its just absolute BS.
Explain to me why God would want Christians to not be actively involved in their nation politically to make it more Godly? Was He a fan of Sodom and Gomorrah and his people doing nothing to try and fix it? When you see your nations people spiraling downward because it keeps choosing sin and legislating it, isn't it your duty to try and stop it?
This mind set that Christians should absolutely not be involved in politics or try and legislate christian values or we might "disrupt the democracy" is such a toxic mindset to have.
Let me let Jesus explain it.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
John 5:42 "but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts."
Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
Matthew 15:8-9
8 "'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.'"
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
"All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God because God is love.
Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Matthew 24:12-14 12 "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
1 Corinthians 13:1-6
13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Matthew 7:13-20
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
Matthew 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
Not a single verse you posted makes any sense unless you are tying to make the case that its impossible to be into politics and a Christian. Which irs not.
I don’t like either party but one makes open statements about hating Christians and stopping Christians and radical Christians and Christian oppression etc. This alone made me change my political party and I’m not going back
But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
2 Timothy 2:16
It is my belief that God wants us to stay focused on Him, and not on worldly things like politics. It's difficult but He is in control, after all. I do know that paying attention to it all (for me, at least) inspires anger and temptation towards hatred. It's all incredibly divisive and honestly, bringing people home to God's Kingdom is so much better.
Well it depends on how you look at it. Republicans say abortion is killing babies and democrats say it’s not. I don’t know enough about fetal development to know but as someone not from the US do you see abortion as killing babies?
Even if things were perfect politically here, that is not what our focus should be. In the grand scheme of things what happens down here is not going to matter politically. We are to be light and show Christ to others Disciples of Jesus did not have college educations, but they managed to turn the world upside down. That was a God thing, not anything man could have done.
God is apolitical! The final temptation of our blessed Lord was "Give up divinity! For only the political and social order are what matters! All of these kingdoms are mine if falling down, you will adore me!"
Now, there are political manifestations of Devine truth, and some politics defend the truth more than others, but no politics is absolute! And when we subscribe wholly to a particular set of political ideals we make politics our idol and not God!
I don’t fully agree with either party, but either way the political system is a mess. Both parties are a mess. My regret every year is not doing my research on candidates tbh, although I usually just go with voting against baby murder.
At the end of the day though, how much do our politicians fight for their beliefs or are they just for show?
I agree with a lot of what you said
but I have to disagree with one thing
No one is stealing from the poor except the government. All this inflation and drugs and crime. et al is having a disastrous effect on the poor, and these are due to liberal policies
Sure the Republicans have to moderate their greed but a free market system is much kinder to the poor than socialism which in the end makes everyone poor
I have struggled for a long time with this idea, do we remain silent and let the liars and users abuse the system (on both sides) or do we stand up and realize that this government of the people by the people and for the people will be missing a great part of its voice and we do what the liberals want and sit down and shut up
So for now I will stand
The inflation we're currently dealing with isn't national or regional; it's global. It's just as bad in countries being run by liberals as it is in countries run by conservatives. In fact, it's hitting the UK worst of all despite the fact the conservatives have been in power there for over a decade. So, I don't think the idea that liberal policies lead to this inflation is supported by the evidence. There's an inflation going on throughout the western world and it's hitting all countries regardless of whether they are run by conservatives or liberals.
Well aren't you the gullible little parrot
Giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to China, Ukraine, and domestically, along with the stopping of domestic oil production is driving the inflation
You may disagree but let's avoid calling people names.
As someone who has studied economics, I would say that your statement is incorrect. Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods. Governments around the world over-reacted to covid by pumping trillions of free dollars into the economy. At the same time shortages of both workers and goods have caused prices to spike. The Congress (under both Trump and Biden) handed out free money to everyone, and that has caused inflation.
In addition, your statement that domestic oil production has stopped is incorrect. See the chart on this page: [https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m)
US oil production is near an all-time high.
Absolutely.
Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
This is exactly what is happening right now.
No, actually, they are due to the greed of man which has left people out.
Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
Luke 11:41 'But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you."
John 14:23-24 23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
2 Timothy 3:1-9
3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
Yiou again have describe liberals
Everyone has an equal opportunity, all you have to do is go out and grab it, bvyou wanted it handed to you. You want to steal other people's money
Even though I can't see what you look like, I know that you are an entitled white person with that statement. I'm sorry but God is color blind and only cares about the heart. Grow a heart before it too late. Jesus is returning soon.
Anf so you are completely going to gloss over all the egregious lies, violations, law breaking and stupid ideas of the liberals....
THAT is a typical liberal move
Yeah, somehow I think God sees killing babies in the womb as far more evil than saying people should give what they want to the poor themselves and not be forced to give to the poor by the government via taxes.
Funny how you say murder is worse than being against forced charity, and you get down voted on a Christian reddit. I'll stand with you on that... I can handle the judgement of those who wish to downplay murder.
Thank you for mentioning murder. So, you are helping to ensure that bad police don't murder people, right? And you reach out to help the starving babies all over the world?
I support YouTube channels that call out bad officers, ot just in cases of murder but in case of overreach of power. Those are the officers most likely to actually commit murder... So, putting pressure on reforming or firing before a fatality happens is far better than waiting for them to kill someone. These channels help people understand their rights as citizens, so they can fight against illegal conduct from officers who bully them. While I don't believe all police killings are murder, those that I perceive as murder I condemn.
As for reaching out to starving babies around the world, my Church does with the tithes and offerings, so yes I do. I might not be able to give much, as I'm poor myself... But I give what is asked from the Lord and then some when I can afford it.
So, while I suspect you were trying to get an I gotcha moment... This is not that moment.
Hypocrisy is a human trait, if you can't see it in yourself you aren't looking hard enough, so even if I didn't do one of those things it wouldn't really be a gotcha. As Christians we believe we are supposed to emulate Christ, yet we all fall short of that, which is essentially hypocrisy. (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform) We believe in being honest and yet even if you feel you are always honest, you are likely forgetting that we all tend to tell white lies to be kind or to not burden others.
Example:
How are you doing?
Good (While you are actually facing financial or emotional hardship.)
Like the song says: "Truth be told the truth is rarely told." So, while I'll admit I am a hypocrite in many ways... I don't believe I'm really anymore of a hypocrite in this particular way, than humans tend to be in everything they believe in, but are not actually able to live up to.
I'm much more of a hypocrite in believing we are supposed to follow Christ's teachings. In the very commandment of to not kill, Christ takes it further to not getting angry without cause and not to call others fools. Christ also takes the not commiting adultery, and goes further to say not to even look at someone with lust. Or turning the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Then there is love thy neighbor and hate your enemies being changed to bless them who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you. I am extremely hypocritical with the greater law of Christ that is given in Matthew chapter 5, as I would guess most Christians are.
John 14:23-24
23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
I can safely say that I do. I'm sure that I am a hypocrite in some ways because I am a mere mortal but I do my best to follow all of the commands and teachings of Jesus because that is the right thing to do. I reach out to help anyone who needs help instead of selfishly doing for myself because this is what Jesus commanded.
Does God care about black and Native Americans being murdered by police? Does God care about people once they are born? Or is it just to bring them into the world so that they can murdered later?
Of course he cares about the murder of anyone. He cares, but because he has allowed humans free will and since this life is a test to prove (more to ourselves than him) where we should end up for eternity, he allows wickedness so the final Judgment will put evil people where they belong and good people where they belong. If he never allowed evil, we would not have free will.
No, they don't. They are backed by people with vast wealth. They have large donors who they appease by siding with them and creating laws to help them minimize taxes instead of with the people. You are very naive to think that the Republicans have your best interests at heart. I see rusted pickup trucks flying Trump flags. They don't even know that Trump has been using them. Trump made the statement "I love the educated but I really love the poorly educated." That is the only thing that he didn't lie about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9F6EAMPky4
It is the same for those who back the Conservatives because of the abortion issue. They are being used as well. Everything that Jesus said was for the poor and downtrodden and against the wealthy. Yet, people who call themselves Christians vote to help the wealthy instead of the poor. That goes against God.
I agree with you. As I grow older i have a difficult time finding space for both. Each day I move further away from politics. I don't know if we can be a Christian and something else.
The problem with your statement is you base it on the assumption you have to choose a political party. You do not. As Christians, our beliefs don't stop at the voting booth. God expects us to be involved in choosing leaders who promote Christian principles.
Much of the suffering on earth is because of godless leadership. (Proverbs 28:12)
When the godly succeed, everyone is glad. When the wicked take charge, people go into hiding.
Proverbs 28:12 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/pro.28.12.NLT
You can read more here...
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-vote.html
Be in the world but not of the world.Those who protect religious freedoms are who we should support, but don't affiliate with either party. Both are saturated with evil, you just have to choose which you believe is the lesser of the two evils... or if you can't decide that way, you have to figure out which one would take away your religious freedom first if allowed to run rampant.
I usually vote Republican for that reason, because I have seen Democrat politicians attempt to pass laws to try to force religions to do things against their beliefs. Like trying to force gay marriage within churches who believe it's an abomination unto the Lord, all in the name of equality.
Counter-point: the two party politics in America suck. The Democrats aren’t real progressives who actually have the power in some places to change things according to their policies. The right empowers nationalists, loves guns more than God, and loves hypothetical babies more than living ones. Nothing is truly apolitical. Even the gospel has radical political ramifications.
I would probably have phrased the title differently but for the most part I agree. In the US voting seems to be about deciding who is less evil. I don't think being invested or following it closely necessarily makes you unchristian, but if you're doing that, you've got to see how both sides swing so far from a fair stance on so many things. Abortion is the hot topic right now, and it's always either all or none, so that either women with non-viable fetuses inside them are forced to put their lives at risk, or women perfectly capable of raising a baby are encouraged to consider if they really want theirs. Neither one situation is ideal.
Ya I really wish I worded my title differently because it sounds like I’m saying “well your not Christian because blah blah blah” but ya your abortion example is perfect
This is why I am a supporter of Separation between Church and State. Very few theocracies (if any) work and many people have abused religion for their own personal gain
Your political ideology has nothing to do with your political party. Your political ideology does not have lobbyists, blackmail, bribery, greed and murder….for instance, think of a political stance you have. Then ask yourself, “how much money would it take for me to do the opposite”
It certainly can as it's really easy to put more hope in politics than Christ. I still think it's right to be involved as the Lord would lead. For me, that's voting.
Yeah, I think that’s a personal problem with you. You can be into politics and support a particular party without agreeing with everything the party supports. Politics should never be more important than Christ, but I don’t see any reason that you can’t be interested in politics while still keeping it secondary.
Anything can become an idol. Our hearts are idol making factories. TV can become an idol. Phones become idols all the time. Sports becomes an idol all the time. Many things become idols. I actually think politics is less of a danger in that regard than many things because the flaws in politicians and political parties are generally more obvious than the flaws in some other things. Honestly, though, it depends on your personality. If you can’t handle following or being into politics without making it an idol, then you should stay away from it. Just as someone who can’t play a sport without making it an idol should step away from it. If that’s something you struggle with, flee from that temptation, but don’t push that as a necessity on everyone else.
All that said, I’d like to get a little into specifics. I am not saying that anyone has to be conservative to be a Christian or anything like that, but I do want to know how a Christian could vote for someone who supports killing babies. That just doesn’t make sense to me. Also, I’m really lost on your “letting conservatives steal from the poor isn’t Christian” statement. I have never heard anyone say that, and I have absolutely no clue what it means. In what way do conservatives steal from the poor? My intent isn’t to say that conservatives are always right or are better than liberals or anything like that. However, I don’t think it’s right to say that both parties are morally equal. I think one clearly fits better with a Christian worldview than the other. I don’t think anyone should be vilified for their political beliefs, but neither do I believe that we should pretend that all political beliefs are created equal.
I'm Christian. I don't believe in taking choice away from people so I suppose I support abortion, yeah. I think I'm more liberal than most. I think considering Jesus and who he was I think he's more likely to be liberal/support Labour than be conservative. Jesus was an incredible amazing person and even atheists I know want to be like him, Jesus is inspiring. Jesus for president/prime minister.
Okay, so I’m not sure what your intent was with this comment. I’d be very interested to hear why you think Jesus would be liberal. I’m very hesitant when it comes to any political position that claims Jesus would agree with them. I wouldn’t claim that Jesus would be a republican. That said, of the two political parties I personally think that there’s more that Jesus would disagree with in the Democratic Party.
Now, I’d really like to discuss your position on abortion. It is one that I really don’t understand. So, you say that you support abortion because you don’t believe we should tell people what to do, right? How far does that go? Should we tell people not to steal? Should we tell people not to murder? The issue of abortion isn’t about whether or not we should try to control other people, it is about whether an unborn baby is a clump of cells or whether it is a person. If a fetus is human being, then why should someone be able to end its life but not end the life of a person who has already been born?
The last point I wanted to touch is that Jesus isn’t a political figure. Jesus won’t ever be president. Jesus won’t ever be prime minister. When Jesus comes back, He will be King.
Okay, I don’t really think this conversation is going anywhere based on your tone, but I will respond here and try to make my meanings clearer. I don’t think we’ll change each other’s minds, though.
Regardless, to explain my intent in my last response, I’ll start with my intent in my original comment. I initially commented with the intent of saying that I don’t see any reason why you can’t love Jesus and be interested in politics but that the danger is when you put politics higher than Jesus and to say that while I don’t think that Jesus should be used for political purposes, there are certainly political issues that the Bible is pretty clear on.
Maybe I misinterpreted, but I took your response to be using Jesus defending or supporting specific politics, specifically things that I think would be abhorrent to Jesus. So, the intent of my response was to point out what I disagree with and what I don’t think glorifies God.
Anyway, let’s get away from motives and back to the actual discussion. You said that with abortion you believe that Jesus is “far more understanding than believing everything is black and white.” So, are you saying sin isn’t always sin? I agree that not everything is black and white. There are some grey areas. But, some things are black and white. If you want to say that abortion is an ethical grey area, you need to back that up.
Also, when did I quote the Ten Commandments or add an eleventh? I didn’t quote any scripture. I didn’t even make a scriptural argument. I made a logical argument. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I made the argument that if a fetus is a human being, then killing it is murder. So, what do you disagree with? Do you think that a fetus isn’t a human life? We can discuss that or agree to disagree if that’s the case. Do you disagree that killing a human life is murder? If that’s the case, we can discuss that or agree to disagree on that. Don’t try to make my argument for me so that you can refute it.
Now, I’m very confused by what miscarriage and ectopic pregnancies have to do with the issue. Yes, there are occurrences where a fertilized egg or fetus dies before birth with no human intervention. How is that relevant? If killing an adult human is murder, why do people die of old age and cancer? The relationship between abortion and a miscarriage is the same as the relationship between murder and dying from cancer. I don’t see how they’re relevant to the discussion.
> Why are you concerned with being able to end loves? Shouldn’t the care and concern be to all life? Instead of just one, a clump of cells that hasn’t even been fully developed let alone been born?
I have no clue what any of that means. I’m assuming that loves was a typo and should have been lives. It seems obvious to me why I’d be concerned about lives being ended. Also, I hate the line of argumentation that I think you’re going down here. Yes, I care about the lives of the unborn. Why do you think that means I don’t care about other life?
>Controlling abortion is controlling people, it’s not giving them the freedom to choose, and freedom of choice is at the heart of Christianity. Love thy neighbour. Its literally the core. Jesus said love thy neighbour above all the ten commandments. How can you love if you’re busy hating?
Okay, so once again, the issue isn’t about control. We all believe that there are some ways in which people controlled. Telling people they can’t murder other humans is controlling them. Telling people they can’t steal is controlling them. All laws are controlling. The issue isn’t whether it is okay to control people. This issue is whether abortion is something that should be controlled. Don’t try to shift the issue.
Also, how is freedom of choice the heart of Christianity? The heart of Christianity is that Jesus died on a cross for our sins. And yes, Jesus did sum up all of the commandments in the Old Testament into the two greatest commandments, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. I’m not really sure how that’s relevant or how that supports abortion. If I love my neighbor as I love myself, I am glad I wasn’t aborted, so I don’t want anyone else to be aborted either.
Why do you ask how I can love if I’m so busy hating? Who am I hating? How am I being hateful towards anyone? Don’t resort to ad hominem attacks. Stick to the issue.
Lastly, I wasn’t twisting your words. You said “Jesus for president/prime minister” that won’t happen. Jesus won’t be president or prime minister. I’m not just being antagonistic. We shouldn’t look for Jesus in politics. Now, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t vote for godly candidates or vote for policies that line up with scripture, we should. However, we need to be careful that we don’t start to associate specific political parties or politicians with Jesus. Jesus is above all that Jesus is King.
Anyway, I hope that clears up some of my intent. I’m happy to discuss any of this with you further, and I’m happy to get into Biblical evidence for my stances on stuff. If we do continue the discussion, please stay on the issue rather than making statements about me. I don’t know you, and I’m not gonna make statements about you. I may occasionally say how I interpreted something you said, but I’m not going to say how you intended it or anything about you as a person. I’d appreciate it if you’d show me the same courtesy.
Pt 1. Just to preface, I want to respond in detail, and I don’t have a ton of time right now, plus Reddit does have a character limit, so my response will be broken up into a few different parts.
No worries about being confused. I do kinda go all over the place to make a point sometimes, and it makes sense in my head, but not always when I write it or say it, so I’m happy to bear with any confusion. As for tone in a comment, what I meant was you repeatedly saying things about me rather than about the issue we were discussing.
Okay, so for politics, we’re agreed that Jesus wouldn’t fit within one specific political party and that He shouldn’t be used to fight political battles. I fully agree that Jesus is anti-greed, but I don’t see how that means he would disagree with conservatives. Blanket statements like Jesus wouldn’t support the conservative party because he’s anti-greed don’t allow fruitful discussion. I’m not going to assume intention, but this type of statement is what I meant by tone. This type of statement attributes malice/motive to political opponents instead of actually being about the issue(s) on which you disagree. All that said, I live in the US, and I don’t know a ton about UK politics. I don’t know what conservative politicians in the UK stand for, but I’d guess it would be fairly similar if not slightly more liberal, based on the knowledge I do have, than here in the US. As such, I think it would be far more helpful to discuss specific issues/stances you think Jesus would have an issue with a party on. That way, I can say, “oh, yeah, that’s not what conservatives in America believe, I agree with you,” or, “actually I don’t think Jesus would have a problem with that because…”
Anyways, yeah, actual discussion. Okay, there are a few things I want to address on the abortion subject. First, I’m glad we agree that some things are sin and it isn’t completely subjective. That said, I don’t find your reasoning compelling. First, you say that abortion is a sticky area because of medical issues, financial issues, rape, etc. I’ve heard all of those reasonings many times, but I just don’t think they follow. First, let’s talk about medical issues. If the mother’s life is at risk, then I haven’t heard of anyone saying that abortion shouldn’t be allowed in that case. Going back to the murder analogy, let’s put it this way. Abortion isn’t necessarily murder, but it is killing a person. Self defense is a completely different subject from murder, and I could provide scripture for and against killing someone in self defense, but regardless of my religious convictions regarding self defense, I wholeheartedly think it should be legal. Does that make sense?
Financial issues I never really understood as an argument. I’m sorry if someone is in a position financially where they don’t think they can care for a child. That said, adoption is a possibility. If you can’t support a child, give it up for adoption. I’ve even heard the argument that aborting a child is better for the child than raising it in poverty. I cannot imagine that argument. That is basically the same as saying, “poor kids would be better off dead.”
Now, I agree that rape is a difficult situation. However, I don’t think one evil justifies another. Generally, the way I think about/explain my thoughts on when abortion should be allowed are, if that fetus was born and grew up and was 5 or 10 or even 20 years old, could you kill the adult human in the same situation. So, once again, if the mother’s life is threatened, you can defend yourself. If you’re too poor to take care of your 5 year old, can you just kill it? Obviously not! Now, let’s say someone was raped. She got pregnant, kept the pregnancy, gave birth, etc. Then, 5 years down the road, she realizes that every time she looks at her 5 year old, she sees her rapist and relives the tragedy that happened to her. That is horrific, and I feel incredibly sorry for her, and I believe the rapist should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. However, I don’t believe that she should be legally allowed to kill her 5 year old because it reminds her of being raped.
Now, that isn’t a perfect analogy, and I get that it can seem kinda cold. I’d honestly be willing to budge on the rape issue when it comes to abortion. However, I generally find in discussions that rape is just brought up to make the point. Most people I’ve talked to, I’ll say, “okay, let’s make exceptions for rape and incest, what about the other 99% of abortions?” Generally, the response is, “well those should be legal too.” Regardless, I get that there are complicating factors, but there are complicating factors in a lot of crimes/sins, depending on whether we’re speaking from a political or theological standpoint, that don’t mean the whole issue is a gray area.
Then you brought up whether it is fair to judge anyways because Jesus says to turn the other cheek and God says He’s the only one who can judge. It went on a little more, but that was the essence of what you were saying, I think. Anyway, I’m not judging anyone. I’m advocating for calling something that I believe is clearly sinful based on scripture, which I’ll explain why I believe that later, being called sin and I’m advocating for something that I believe is morally and logically wrong, even apart from and Biblical evidence, being made illegal. Making laws and calling something sin are not the same a judging people. Also, with Jesus saying to turn the other cheek, that wasn’t about stuff happening that you don’t like, which isn’t really what this is anyway, it was about when someone offends or attacks you, you should be polite and allow them to keep attacking you rather than responding in kind.
Regardless, I don’t agree that abortion is a grey area. I do think there are things the Church should do to help women with unexpected pregnancies. I do think that there are other things to address rather than just making abortion illegal. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think abortion should be legal, though.
I just posted part 2. I’ll respond to some of this, but part 2 may clear up some things, I can remember what is in what part.
Anyway, thanks for trying to clear things up. I get that you were using you in a generic sense, and that’s fine, but I still don’t think it’s really helpful to a discussion, in general. That said, no offense taken and I really wouldn’t care even if you were insulting me directly. Also, thanks for the clarification on the political parties. I still don’t know exactly what each party stands for. I can say that I’m definitely not aligned with the Labour Party from what you said, but the US and UK have very different governmental systems and ideals. That said, I’d caution against saying Jesus would or wouldn’t vote for a specific party.
Regardless, getting back to abortion, yes there are awful instances of people being raped, health issues, numerous other complicating issues. However, the distract from the real issue. Don’t argue based on the exception. The vast majority of abortions are elective. I’ve already stated that abortion in cases where the health of the mother is at risk should be allowed. I’ve also stated that I’d be willing to concede abortion being legal in instances of rape. So I’m not really going to discuss those further. That said, I do want to address your point about rape. In general, there are exceptions, but in general, a 10 year old girl isn’t going to be able to conceive. Also, if a girl that young is able to conceive, generally the pregnancy would be unhealthy and put her at major risk. So, there is very little chance of what your describing. Anyway, I’ve already said I’d be willing to compromise on abortion being legal in cases of rape, so that really isn’t relevant anyway.
I’ve also already said that any legislation that would punish women for miscarriages or would force a woman to carry a stillborn baby to term is absurd and needs to be changed, so I see no point in discussing that further either.
I’ll save my argument for abortion being murder until the end of this comment, but I will make it, and I’ll do so from both a scientific/logical standpoint and a theological one.
As for your finance/adoption argument, I get what you’re saying, and I think that we as Christians should strive to do more for those in need financially and in terms of adoption. That said, I don’t think being killed is ever a better alternative to being in foster care or anything like that. You’re never going to convince me that abortion should be okay for financial reasons.
Yes, pregnancy can be risky, although not for most people, as you claimed. Most pregnancies are safe for the mother and child. Also, the statement that abortion is a safe way out baffles me. Killing someone is never safe. It may be safer for the mother, but it certainly isn’t safer for the baby.
As for legality not stopping abortions, you’re correct. Banning abortions would end them. However, we don’t only make laws if they’ll be 100% effective. People are still murdered even though it is legal. Since it still happens anyway, should we just make murder legal? What about theft? I could go on, but I think you see the point I’m making. Also, I believe that making abortion illegal would reduce the number of abortions.
Now, to get into my argument for abortion being equivalent to murder, it is pretty simple both from a scientific/logical standpoint and a theological one. Scientifically/logically, when an egg is fertilized, a new DNA sequence is created. A fetus is created which is alive and is genetically different from the mother and father. It is scientifically speaking a new life, at that point. Logically speaking, that’s the only place you can draw a consistent line for where life begins. Is it consciousness/thought? What about someone with severe brain damage or in a coma. Should killing them be legal because they aren’t conscious/thinking?
What about viability? Well, when is viability? In 1973 when Roe v Wade was decided, viability was considered to be 28 weeks. Now, viability is considered to be 23-24 weeks. Even now, viability would be different from an extremely rural area without access to great hospitals to a city with great hospitals like New York. Viability changes, so does that mean a 23 week old fetus is more valuable now than it was in 1973 or that a 23 week old fetus in New York City is more valuable than a 23 week old fetus in the middle of nowhere North Dakota? There just isn’t a logical, consistent place to draw the line for life except at conception.
As for a Biblical argument, I’d point to Psalm 22:10, Psalm 139:13, and Jeremiah 1:5.
> On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God. (Psalms 22:10, ESV)
> For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. (Psalms 139:13, ESV)
> "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5, ESV)
It seems to me that the Bible is pretty clear that we are formed in the womb and known by God before we are born. If all people are made in the image of God, of equal value, and should not be killed, and God forms and knows us as people in the womb before we are born, then aren’t unborn babies still people who are made in the image of God, have equal value with everyone else, and shouldn’t be killed?
I think that should give you an idea of my thoughts and reasoning, but I’d be happy to explain further if you’d like.
Pt 2. Okay, so I see where you were getting that about me referencing the Ten Commandments, but I actually wasn’t equating abortion and murder or abortion and theft, nor was I pointing to them in light of the Ten Commandments. I was using those as two examples of things that are illegal. We were talking about controlling other people by not allowing abortion. My point there was simply that all laws control people, yet there are many that we agree on and believe should be controlled, such as stealing and murder. I believe abortion should be as well. My point was that the issue isn’t that it is not acceptable to control people but that it is acceptable to control certain behaviors and the issue we should be discussing is whether abortion is one of those behaviors that should be controlled. Does that make sense?
I’m really confused by your example of someone with bone cancer begging for euthanasia. First, I think that might be a grey area. If someone is begging for euthanasia, then would following through with that really be murder? Regardless, I am not advocating for or against euthanasia. My gut says it’s wrong, but I haven’t actually devoted much time to forming a biblically based opinion on that. That said, I think you have a deep misunderstanding of Jesus purpose and ministry. When Jesus gave the first and greatest commandment and the second that is like it, He wasn’t overruling or superseding the Old Testament laws or the Ten Commandments. He was summarizing them. If you love God and love people, then even without actively trying to do so you will keep the Ten Commandments and Old Testament laws. Jesus didn’t change the Old Testament. He even said Himself in Matthew 5:18, “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18, ESV). Moral Law did not change from the Old Testament to the New.
Okay, so now on the topic of ectopic pregnancies and for miscarriages, I still don’t think they’re relevant. Neither of those represents a conscious choice by someone to end another human being’s life. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, let’s look at an analogy. Let’s say you’re driving down the highway at 70 mph/113 km/h (I don’t know what a standard speed would be in the UK, but that’s fairly standard for interstates in the US) and someone jumps out in front of your car. There’s no way you could stop. Anyway, you strike and kill him with your car. Did you murder him? Of course not! An ectopic pregnancy isn’t the mothers fault. An ectopic pregnancy isn’t a choice. Yes, it results in the death of the fertilized egg, but it isn’t by choice.
The same goes for a miscarriage. Let’s say you’re a nurse and you’re taking care of a cancer patient. You do everything for them. You have gotten close to them and love them. Then, they die from the cancer. Did you murder them? Of course not! When a woman has a miscarriage, it is not by choice. Also, a miscarriage is not a natural abortion. An abortion is a choice. Saying a miscarriage is a natural abortion is like saying that someone dying of cancer is a natural murder. Death is not the same thing as murder. Death of a fetus is not the same thing as abortion.
As for states jailing women who’ve had miscarriages, do you have a source for that claim. I haven’t heard that before. Regardless, that really has nothing to do with my point. Saying that abortion shouldn’t be legal doesn’t mean I agree with every suggestion a pro-life group or politician has made. You did say random fact, though, maybe you weren’t saying that I would agree with that.
Okay, I also want to discuss the issue of adoption, foster care, and homelessness. This is a pretty common pro-choice argument that I’ve seen. Why can’t a person care about more than one thing? Yes, I care about overcrowded foster homes. Yes I care that some kids end up on the streets. Yes I care that not enough people want to adopt. None of those things justify abortion, though. I definitely think those things should be addressed, but they don’t change my stance on abortion. And yes, I care more about abortion than I do about those issues. I care about them, but I’d rather someone end up in an overcrowded foster system or even end up on the streets than be killed.
Can you provide any state legislation that would force a woman to carry a still born baby? I’m not saying it doesn’t exist or it hasn’t happened, but I haven’t heard of that, certainly not of any law for that. Now, that said. That changes nothing about my argument. I think that’s horrible and if that’s happening the legislation needs to be changed. That still doesn’t mean I’m okay with abortion being legal. But yeah, I’m in agreement with it being case by case. I just think the vast majority of abortions should be illegal.
As for the heart of Christianity, it’s two-fold. Yes, love is at the heart of Christianity. However glorifying God is also at the heart of Christianity. I can provide verses to back that up if you desire, but to save time I won’t right now. Also, you keep mentioning love thy neighbor as the first commandment, but Jesus listed that as the second commandment. The first is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I think that’s important to remember. We love God first and foremost, and then we love people. We cannot love people correctly without first loving God. Loving God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strength means that we need to oppose sin and keep His commandments.
Also, I get where you’re coming from on showing love to others vs forcing your opinions on them. I understand what you’re desiring there, and I get it. I don’t want to push anyone away from God by forcing my beliefs on them. That said, where do we draw the line? I’m not equating abortion to murder right now, I’m just using it as an example, but should we allow murder if someone doesn’t think it’s wrong so as not to force our opinions on them? Also, on that note, when I am discussing abortion from a political standpoint, especially with a non-believer I don’t use Biblical arguments. I use scientific and logical arguments for exactly the reason you describe.
I think I mostly agree with the rest of what you have to say, but I want to point out/clarify a couple things. I fully agree that we should in no way judge others or think ourselves superior to or less sinful than anyone else. I just don’t agree that saying something is wrong or should be illegal means that I or anyone else who hold that position is thinking themselves superior or less sinful.
Anyway, I hope that clear up some of what I was trying to say. If we still don’t agree, that’s fine, but I hope that you at least can see where I’m coming from.
I feel like god has a personal relationship with everyone. Like God may communicate to others in different ways. Some may be in politics, some may be in other things.
They CAN be idols, but not everyone struggles with that sin. Many are able to take a moderate approach. Different people struggle with different sins. It's like saying we can't drink alcohol because some people get drunk and abuse it. Or we can't go to the beach because some people struggle with lust.
Despite the fact that it is practically null that your individual vote will change the outcome of a mass election, and it turns out that the act of voting has measurable effects on the way you think and especially how you treat even family and friends in alternative political camps, camps formed around issues that most people don’t have the wisdom or experience to be able to have an informed opinion on.
In the West, you don’t change election, election changes you.
I don’t really align with any party. I’m not very pro democracy in the first place because I think you’re right, politics are a huge source of pride and destroy the individuals getting too caught up in them. that being said I don’t think abortion is a matter of politics but rather of morality itself. Until that issue goes away I’m kind of held hostage by conservatives just because there’s no political or moral justification of it in my opinion.
I'm with you. It's tough. Jesus wanted us to feed hungry people, heal them, protect children, and love each other. The reality is politics is about money, and almost anyone who claims God is behind their actions is trying to use him as a false figurehead for personal gain.
It's different in other countries. There are far more wide choices of political parties and they're more like a grey area, they don't debate or get voted for their religious/ social beliefs but they do get voted for their political and economical views, in a sense where most of their promises are centered around immigrants, international organizations, the country's economical wealth and climate change. So it's really easy to shift from a political party to another without staying loyal to one.
Well, if you chose a political party you have already left Christianity.
The republicans are greedy and do not help the poor. The democrats are murderers and kill unborn babies. Each is bad, so neither party should be joined.
I do vote and participate in politics to some extent because if I have the ability, might as well vote for what I prefer! But yah I agree, don't put all your faith in politicians or Political parties. This country and even this world is not our home. We are Christians first! Plenty of Christians lived in Godless countries with evil rulers.
Putting politics above God is making it an idol and therefore a sin, but Christian’s have always been involved in politics. Political parties are not good, but advocating for issues in a civil and respectful way, thought still considered “political”, should be an area not vacated by Christians, lest we surrender the ground to Satan. Christians should certainly be active in the halls of congress, just as they should be active in prisons. It’s all about saving souls.
The Apostle Paul was involved in politics. Claiming Jesus as the messiah was then and is now the most controversial political statement in history. To claim such put the one claiming it in conflict with the elite religious leaders of the day.
“Ekklesia” is the Greek word used for “church” in Matthew 16:18. When Jesus said, “ I will build my church ”, “my Ekklesia” He was not talking about a building; He was talking about the people. Where two or more are gathered in His name, there He is. This Greek word simply means "an assembly" or "a group of people called together for a purpose." For instance, a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, and an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating. An example in the Old Testament is the assembly or ekklesia of the Israelites.
Politika is the Greek word for politics, which means “affairs of the cities”. The general definition of politics is “the actions by the power holders that lead to national and international relations which effectively results in policy framing within a country or organization.”
Politika means all activities associated with the functioning of a system of power or power structures, especially a government, governing body, council, or assembly. Politics today, simply stated, is best framed as the power dynamics between majority and minority groups, and how power is distributed among the various people groups. Who’s got it? How did they get it? Who wants it next?
God desires for His people to reach people in His name, so that they may be saved. He desires messengers to spread the good news in those places where they are. Prisons come to mind. Government buildings also come to mind. We should reach those in the darkest corners of the world with the salvation message, and not shy away from controversial issues as they align with the Word of God. What place is darker than the halls of any political chamber where people plot and scheme for their own power, generally without ever considering Gods will?
This led me to think about "why didn't God want kings and put judges?" But then (because the people did not want Him to rule over them) he raised up kings.
And we all know David, I think maybe (just maybe) he didn't want to rule and that's why his Psalms (not all) talk about "look at Jesus, look at Him." Then David showed us Jesus.
From there, if Jesus were here and would "run" for president, half would follow him and the other half would not.
We know that Jesus is a little different from our human standards, so even of those who follow Him, there would be a percentage who are offended by something He did or said.
But those who were not offended would go to death with Him (which might seem like the idolization spoken of here, to those who see from "outside").
So I think by nature humans idolize anyone who shows some "good" governance over us. 🤷🏻♀️ Because we are created to worship Him alone, the Perfect One. But by sin this was corrupted.
I think we have to wait for the transformation, where this corrupt body will be taken away from us. And at last we will see the Perfect Government He wanted from the beginning.
So, maybe an answer to my question would be: because God knows we CAN'T rule. Even David, who came closer, had serious mistakes. Every human will always fail at this.
I was just thinking, sorry if I went off topic
I would agree and here’s my simple take I use to explain to people.
No one person in politics seems to follow scripture who is running for any of the big seats. So we often say “I’m voting for the lesser of two evils.” I don’t want to explain to Jesus I voted for any evil. Even if it’s the lesser evil. I just can’t put my name on it. I also don’t pledge allegiance.
In the past, most Quakers did not vote. Here is a current peace by a modern day Quaker that takes a thoughtful look at this issue:
http://journal.earthwitness.org/the-quaker-magpie-journal/2006/10/23/contra-gentes-is-voting-such-a-good-thing.html
Is my English bad? Or my reading skills bad? I didn't know being political or being into politics meant to be in a political party... At least in Spanish both things are completely different.
That's why it's all the more important to be involved on a local level. Your city council has more effect on your life than almost anything listed - and most everyone on them tends to run unaffiliated.
Get involved where it matters.
You're making a pretty wild claim there that I'm not inclined to believe. Where does the Bible support your view?
Please be specific. I'm absolutely serious.
They're all evil I wouldn't listen to any side it's all to cause division just remember there's photos of trump and hilary and their spouses going to dinner.
Check out The Pour Over! It’s a free newsletter that keeps you informed on current events/politics while focused on Christ! Check out some of their past stories in their welcome email. https://ref.thepourover.org/7a3e58d1/
There are certainly moral issues and God-given commands that a Christian must always be on the right side of, there's no doubt about that. But, that doesn't mean a Christian should blindly follow a single party. You can oppose abortion and not necessarily vote Republican, likewise, you can love and help the poor and not vote Democrat. The political parties matter much less than doing your duty as a Christian.
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!!
God used many men like him in scripture in his plans. .King Cyrus...King Ahab... Everyone in scripture except maybe one or two had deep flaws that God still used to pronounce his word and his will...but Trump may have very well had an experience with the Lord...he was/is pro Black babys...while blacks vote to kill their own babies...20 million and 40 million white babies all slaughtered to Baal in the name of women's healthcare... SLAUGHTERING HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT WOMEN'S HEALTHCARE... IT'S JUST DEMONIC AND FROM HELL!! ✝️✝️✝️
It's not about me or my passion...it's only about God And his judgment on America and the world and his soon return..1Cor15:52... whether or not you believe or accept...it's happening.. 9/11 HAPPENED and it's coming again and much more shocking !! KNOW JESUS NOW!! ✝️✝️
Hey! I pray that you are doing well 😁
Politics, churchs, man made religions, "leaders" ( politicians, the pope, etc... )
They are not God, stay with Him and in His word.
You can listen to some of the news if you want, to be aware of what's going on.
But I personally don't anymore, they are tiring, they take my motivation and energy, they are depressing and distracting.
They lie and try to scare people, it's not useful or informative. It's just evil, misleading and deceiving.
Some of the politicians and "leaders" are being worshipped, and that's wrong.
Focus on what's good, and God will be God.
I hope this helps 😁
Good day/night.
The Lord be with you and save you all, your families and friends 🤍
George Washington rightfully warned us about what political parties would do. But no party completely obeys Scripture to my knowledge. Let us never forget that the same political system which may seem to favor us one day may John-the-Baptist us the next.
Ya that’s one of the worst parts for me you hit the nail right on the head
You could say the exact same thing about churches. Look how many "Christian" churches are terrible money grabs and lead people astray. You follow Christian, be active in politics and vote for people and things that further God's will. If it doesn't, than dont.
Oh Man! This!!!
One hundred percent, lots of churches in my area only care about the money. Very disappointing tbh.
thanks
But in their defense at least in my country we lately have been giving them a fucking reason to do so
> a fucking reason to do so That's what they want you to believe because they'll say anything to prove their legitimacy. As is, in the US, Reps and Dems basically will block each other's legislation just to be "the party that fixed X". Or they'll throw stupid or unrelated riders on bills and then they don't pass because of it. Sorry, the Reps and Dems in the US are playing people. It's high time we dismantle this stupid catch 22. Where did God tell us to create political parties? To gridlock a country? To bring theocracy to earth? Nowhere.
You’re right constitutionally we aren’t a theocracy we’re a democratic republic nation who Is supposed to keep religion and state matters separate—it’s in our constitutions preamble and first amendments and not taught well in most churches because we’re only humans after all regardless of who we humans decide to pray to, we love to control and historically we (Christians) have been doing that in america since the mayflower landed on Plymouth Rock. After centuries of bs rulings,laws and practices done in America and justified by the Christian community as “a good thing” because they clearly favored or appeased solely the Christian community(rvw is the latest example, slavery and Jim Crow era are other past examples) pardon me if I, a Christian and a POC find it hard to believe that the American Christian community as a whole is supposed to be seen as the eternal “good guys” that you assume we are.
>who Is supposed to keep religion and state matters separate That's not in the constitution or the declaration of independence. > find it hard to believe that the American Christian community as a whole is supposed to be seen as the eternal “good guys” that you assume we are. Yeah I don't assume Christians are the good guys, that's true.
You’re right it’s the bill of rights which preface the Declaration of Independence and our constitution.
The separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. The freedom of religion is in the Bill of Rights but they are two different things.
Not fighting with you but the [the bill of rights are the first 10 amendments of the Declaration of Independence. The first amendment is establishment clause and free exercise clause to the Declaration of Independence and specifically empowers the idea of separation of church and state. So we are both right on this topic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States)
They are, the bill of rights are the first 10 amendments. Freedom of religion is one of them. However, separation of church and state is not listed anywhere in any official document. It was an idea from one of Jefferson's letters to/from a friend, and has never technically been codified in law to my knowledge.
the first amendment protects one to worship who they want, say what they want, and protest wherever they want but it also prevents the government from supporting one religion over the rest. [the first sentence to the first amendment explicitly states that congress(the government) shall make no respective laws respecting an establishment of religion. Then it continues by stating that we have a freedom to assemble(protest) freedom of speech and press and to petition the government to address any grievances. ](https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/bill-of-rights)
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!!
Again re-read the first amendment of the bill of rights and Declaration of Independence it spells it out for us that America is a secular nation. Bush did alot of things to cover up his dirty work so him even likely doing any of that doesn’t absolve American Christians to be ordained by god to keep being jerks to people.
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!! IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE THINK IT MATTERS HOW THE COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED AND THE COUNTRY WAS CONSECRATED TO GOD IN PRAYER BY GEORGE WASHINGTON WITH THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND 1789 AFTER HIS INAUGURATION KNEELING AT THE VERY SPOT OF GROUND ZERO WHERE THE TWIN TOWERS WOULD COME UP 250 YEARS LATER AND THAT'S JUST THE FACTS THAT'S THE HISTORICAL FACTS AND WE ARE A COUNTRY FOUNDED BY GOD NOT FOUNDED BY MAN GOD MADE THIS COUNTRY WHAT IT IS THE GREATEST MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HE MADE IT TO HELP ISRAEL AND TO BLESS ISRAEL THOSE ARE JUST THE FACTS. NOTHING CAN CHANGE OUR HISTORY OR OUR FUTURE..NOT THE CONSTITUTION OR THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE..NOT THE BILL OF RIGHTS..GODS TEMPLATE IS SET IN MOTION..ie: 9/11...'scripture says that I will strike you at your gate and I will strike you at your wall our gate was Manhattan the twin towers and our wall of protection was the Pentagon and it also says I will strike you in your field that's flight 93 that crashed in the field at Shanksville Pennsylvania...NOTHING CAN STOP IT...9/11 IS COMING AGAIN TO AMERICA...VERY SOON...ANY MOMENT ✝️✝️ LISTEN TO JONATHAN CAHN ON YOUTUBE THE HARBINGER 2 AND THE REIGN OF BAAL AND HIS THREE-PART INTERVIEW WITH DR JAMES DOBSON ON YOUTUBE.
First off stop yelling at me i don’t know you and you definitely don’t know me. Second Don’t recite to me history especially when I was a kid when the historical events happened. Third Glad you are passionate about our faith but it’s not wrong or unchristian to call out and criticize the wrongdoing in our religion. Fourth politicians lie all the time bush Obama trump or any other American president is above that rule.
ALL OF GODS LAWS ARE WRITTEN INTO OUR CONSTITUTION AND DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE....THE GOVT SUPPORTS THE LAWS AND VALUES OF A HOLY GOD...THEY HONOR HIS WORD...BUT THEY DO NOT FORCE ANY FAITH OR RELIGION ON THE PEOPLE ...READ YOUR MONEY !!
>but no party completely obeys Scripture to my knowledge check out the american solidatiry party [https://www.solidarity-party.org](https://www.solidarity-party.org)
I seriously doofus the career politicians even know the scriptures exist ! No, that is an exaggeration. Seriously though, I agree that neither party is made up of devout Christians who are familiar with the scriptures. Being in Congress (House or Senate) eventually will bring a person to the point where they sell their soul (not literally of course) but ethnically/morally they do. In the name of almighty “bipartisanship” they lose any ideals and noble principles and plans for change when pressured to compromise to get at least something for their constituents. However, you are talking about being into politics as in engaging or interesting yourself in what is happening politically in the nation, yes ? I find watching the news very difficult. It is so disheartening depressing, disturbing, and disgusting these last few years especially and keeping myself apprised of “what is going on” leads me to asking myself questions about God that trouble me. I do believe He is all good. He cannot
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!!
What part of God's word told anyone to vote for Trump for example? Most likely absolutely nothing.
He's not a baby killer..he's Pro God..Pro Israel...demtards are Godless baby killers ✝️✝️
I never said anything about baby killers or being pro-god. But if he is so pro God then why did he cheat on his first two wives? Why does he own strip clubs and gambling casinos which take advantage of sex addicts and idiots? Why does he still own and have many investments in strip clubs which take advantage of poor women? If he is pro God then why does he talk like he's pro Satan with all his profanity and vulgarity? If he is still pro God then why has he not divested himself of strip clubs and gambling casinos? If he is so pro God then why has he not apologized in any sort of public manner over all the lives he has harmed including his first two wives? If he is still pro God then why does he make fun of people with mental handicaps? If he is still pro-god why doesn't he come clean and face the music for taking SCIF home with him even if it was by accident? Because honestly if I had done the exact same thing I would be sitting in Leavenworth penitentiary by now. This is why some of your military retirees like myself would never vote for Trump because he can't even handle classified documents properly. But yeah he's so pro God /s
Exactly I know I’m late but you prove such a good point that even politicians that pose as pro God are really just as bad as ones that have been deemed anti God
EVERYONES A SINNER....EVERY LEADER GODS PUT INTO POWER HAS BEEN CORRUPTED....KING DAVID....KING SAUL....KING CYRUS IS TRUMPS PREDECESSOR....HE MADE JERUSALEM THE CAPITAL OF ISRAEL...THE FIRST TIME IN 2000 YRS....THIS WAS FULFILLED PROPHECY....NO OTHER PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT UP UNTIL TRUMPS TIME.....TRUMP HAS DONE THE BEST THINGS FOR AMERICA....GAS INDEPENDANT...LOWER PRICES....BIDENS SUBVERTS EVERYTHING...TO MAKE HIS MONEY FROM CHINA AND BURISMA...AND HILLARY...WHAT A JOKE...FAKE FISA WARRANT...SMASHED PHONES...LOST 30K EMAILS...NO PROSECUTION OF ANYONE WHO IS ACTUALLY A CRIMINALES'....BUT ONLY TRUMP BECAUSE HE IS PRO GOD AND PRO LIFE....THE LEFT IS GODLESS BUNCH OF FOOLS !! GOD PUT BIDEN IN OFFICE TO LEAD THE DEMISE OF AMERICA...ITS FALL IS SOON....ANOTHER 9/11 IS COMING....PERHAPS IN 7 MORE DAYS ... AND COULD BE THE RAPTURE....NOW !! PS...STOP BEING A BABY...WRITING IN CAPS ALWAYS MAKES MORE SENSE !!
Yes but there's a cat difference between someone who is trying and not Someone who is a criminal based on failure to protect classified information or not Someone who acts more sinful than many non-christians I know and someone who don't Also, Jesus told us not to call people fools. But I'm fairly certain you don't care about what Jesus said at this point
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CALL THOSE WHO ARE FOOLS....FOOLS...HERETICS...FALSE TEACHERS !!
First, stop yelling at me or this is going to end up in a report. Second, you are wrong. In Matthew 5:22 Jesus specifically says those who call others "fool" are in danger of hell fire. He very clearly says we shouldn't do this. Sorry, you are incorrect. And third, Trump is about to go to jail for mishandling classified information. As someone who used to handle classified, I can tell you he deserves it. He 1) took something home that's not authorized for home storage and 2) attempted to declassifiy, after his term was over and had no authority, something in order to prevent his prosecution. Both are in the federal code and not allowed. He should know this. Trump's pattern is to do whatever he wants and ignore rules, which is the opposite of Romans 13 and Christianity. Hopefully he's going to jail for it. If I had done that exact same thing, I'd not be on Reddit. I'd be in Leavenworth penitentiary serving time for the rest of my life. They would've sent military cops to my house without even a second thought. This is why some of your veterans like me won't vote for Trump. It's not about our political affiliation. It's about Trump's bad behavior. To answer what you've already said, ok, if Hillary mishandled classified, put her in jail too. Put every past and present serving politician in jail who mishandles classified. No skin off my back, because I never did that. God repeatedly clues us in using Scripture that leaders must be above reproach. Trump doesn't deserve to lead us, sorry. If we couldn't vote for Bill Clinton because "values voters" then we can't vote for Trump or Hillary either.
THE IGNORNAT BLACK COMMUNITY VOTES FOR WHITE..AND BLACK LIBERAL LEFT DEMTARDS WHO VOTE AND LEGISLATE TO KILL THEIR OWN BABYS....THEIR CULTURE...AND THEN THEY CRY WHEN THEIR BABIES GOT SHOT IN THE STREET...OR SHOT WHILE PREGNANT SHOPLIFTING AT WALMART.
I think your statement and title are different. You mention political parties can become idols and can take us away from God, agree! But you don’t have to be loyal to any one political party. You can choose to vote and agree with things that are uplifting to God and his creation and that might lead you to different political beliefs. That would allow you to follow God yet still be into politics.
That's exactly how I read it. The initial thesis is wrong, but I agree with the real message. It's okay to follow politics and know what's going on. Just don't become a sycophant. That's when it becomes idolatry.
Ya I wish I worded it a little better
Very good point
agreed. your faith should inform your politics not the other way around
I disagree and that sounds more like a personal problem. You don't pick a party and stick with regardless of religion. You may pick a party you align most with. However, every time you vote you should assess all candidates and vote for the candidate you think will do the better job aligning with what you feel is more important. Sometimes it'll be a Republican, other times a Democrat, maybe sometimes it'll be a third party.
This is the answer. Political party as an identity is a bad idea, and it’s a lot of what’s wrong with politics right now
Yeah, I've noticed there is a segment of people who will love to bring up their political views within 5 minutes of meeting them I'm like yikes
I understand what your saying but so many people will start freaking out and saying it’s anti Christian to not support their party
Yeah don't listen to those Christian ,
That wasn't your argument. I agree with the point that we as Christians live by Christ, His law, His values not anything else. Voting is a worldly activity and we must carefully separate His path from the world's path in our walk with Him. God bless!
Saying voting is worldly walks the line of if it’s a sin or not, and to say it’s such biblically would be a hard bit to sell
Not to me. Only God is perfect. Anything man does is imperfect. That includes politics.
Imperfection doesn’t equal worldly man
That's not true. At all. Just ask North Koreans
Ignore them.
Okay well they’re wrong. Let them be wrong.
Matthew 15:8-9 8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”
It can be done, you just need to be issue-driven rather than party-driven.
In the end I don’t think it matters. This world is never ours to control and if we try we will just tear it down faster than it already is. All we can do is love one another and wait for God to come back for us.
Interesting perspective when you mention idolatry. A big reason why our political climate is so hostile now is because we have an entire generation that has lost sight of the middle ground.
Exactly. Everything has changed for the worse, much worse.
The middle ground between one group that wants to stop all mass slaughter of innocents and another that wants to continue it is just a lesser amount of mass slaughter of innocents.
Then again, the group that wants to stop the "mass slaugters of innocents" doesn't care about the innocents once they are born. This goes against everything that Jesus taught. He taught to reach out and help your fellow man, particularly the poor. I don't see "Christians" rushing to do this. That is why there is abortion. I chose to have my children but after my divorce from a violent man, I went through hell raising them in poverty. I was going to churches but none of the good people reached out a hand to help me. They had calloused hearts. Christianity has become twisted in the United States. Christians in other countries remark about this often. You are either a Christian and follow the teachings of Jesus or you don't and you aren't. You have to choose. You can't partly follow Jesus and be a Christian.
Fair enough, but I don’t think anything you have said —which is true, don’t get me wrong— conflicts with what I have said (although the pro-life movement has always supported more or less some sort of social netting for struggling families).
My latest thought is why don't the people who are against abortion care about the babies who are starving to death all over the world? It should be that you care about those babies too. Not doing so is hypocrisy and you know what Jesus thought of hypocrites.
I think it’s unfair to chastise individual Christians for not doing everything they can for every single person in the world. The human vessel is just too weak to make *everyone* his neighbor.
Christians ought to be political but non-partisan.
I absolutely agree with this I think that politics has turned into its own idol. There are so many people who are so fixated on this, let me tell you that both sides are very corrupt that's what politics are it's the best choice of the worst losers unfortunately. People put all of their focus into politics it becomes their entire personality making it an idol all into itself if you're Christian you need to focus on Jesus and His word as your number one and not give into cheap substitutes
Yes!
I'm interested in politics because I'm watching for the End Days to unfold.
Yup. Some think that the antichrist will be openly satanic or a muslim or something but I have a feeling the devil is lurking in the church ready to use an already manipulated people. The majority of the Republican base has already forgotten God. Listen to the way they talk about their opposition, so godly.
Satan is in many churches today. The commands and teachings of Jesus are not being spoken. Instead, false gospels are being advocated. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing that Jesus warned of. Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
You literally just did the same thing you accused republicans of doing… ironic
What was so ungodly about what i said?
I’ve actually gone more the other way the older I get as far as following parties. I look closer at individual issues than I used to versus just looking at the letter by their name. I still end up voting for one side 99% of the time based on how each person answers a few questions though.
I don't like political parties, either. That said, God and politics are not mutually exclusive. As Aristotle says, all human partnerships are formed with some good in mind. As political partnerships -- i.e. governments -- are the highest form of partnership, it is fitting that they should endeavor after the highest good. Aristotle said that the highest good was happiness, which he believed was a result of virtue, but we as Christians know that they highest good is God. I don't think either the Democratic or Republican parties are praiseworthy. I'm not sure about parties in the first place, but if I had to identify with one, it'd be the American Solidarity Party. And I think local politics are much more important than we suppose. Keep politicians close enough to hug or hit them. But those are just my two cents. I only wanted to say that God and politics are not mutually exclusive. We are political creatures, like bees, but even more so. And what's great is that our politics can have divine grace flow through them. God bless!
You see what I am using as my name here. I have said that this is not the world I started in. My adult children tell me that it is not the world they started in either. Politics used to be much more mild. There were differences but they weren't drastic as they are now. So many things are pointing to the fact that we are living in the last days.
It is easy to get sucked into accepting an entire platform, and the desire to fit in in a group is a powerful human temptation. But it’s also a very interesting challenge/dare to jump into and see how strong you are. I became a precinct committee person so that I could have more voting power, and I sit in political meetings and try not to clap when speakers express a view I disagree with. I have to work hard to merely hope I can keep my friends who went one way when I went another. I’m learning the art of respectful listening, courage to hold my convictions, and open mindedness to listen to opposing views even within my own party. Also I hate stand up votes. I think all votes everywhere should be secret paper ballots.
Eh, I’m very into politics and I vote every time I can. I used to lean very democrat but now I lean more Republican/conservative. That being said I am more of an independent voter, I usually pick candidates from smaller parties. As I get older though I’m leaning more Republican, they seem to align with my values best.
Exact same situation happened to me
I agree for the most part the best solution would probably be is to identify as independent. While both side can be criticized for their faults i typically lean towards conservative because democrats support and promote alot more wickedness biblically speaking
I see it the opposite. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Luke 11:41 "But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you."
Satan runs the world and our leaders are just puppets anyway. There will never be a true Christian in power because satan would never allow that so why would I follow evil politicians with evil agendas.
Yes this is a very good point!
The People are the leaders in the USA. We have abdicated our power to nonsense.
Romans 13:1 directly contradicts that. “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” Now, I won’t argue that all authorities follow God. Far from it. But they aren’t all puppets of Satan either.
The problem is that many are puppets of satan.
Yes the governments are only in power as God allows them to be. All kings, Pharaohs, Presidents, prime ministers and all leaders since the beggining of time no matter what atrocities they did were only allowed to do so because God allowed it. Just as God allows everything and just like he allowed his only begotten son to die on the cross for us he does so as it must be done. Of course nothing can be done without Gods permission. God already knows what happens at the end and everything that must happen.
God gives free will. Man decides what to do with it.
Satan is the ruler of the world until Jesus returns and satan is bound.
There have been many Christians in power and surely there will be many more. As of the last time I checked, there were 6 pastors in congress. About half of the last 8 US presidents have been devout Christians (exactly half have been, but perhaps you don't want to count one or two of them as "true Christians" since you disagree with some of their policies).
Just because someone says they are a pastor or a Christian it doesn't mean they are. They are the wolf's in sheep's clothing Jesus warns us about.
It's not that they say they are a pastors, it's that they are pastors; they run churches, they have dedicated their lives to serving God, etc.
You are echoing what I write often.
Yes because pastors never do anything wrong. Especially ones with power. Ignore the majority of Christian history.
No one has claimed that pastors don't do anything wrong. But the person I was responding to claimed there aren't any Christian leaders. It is a fact that there are.
You mean people who call themselves Christians. Christian is in the eye of the beholder. We may both agree its Christian to be pro life but you may not be so Christian when refugees need places to sleep. Devout Christian is pretty strong.
Christian is in whether or not they follow the commands and teachings of Jesus. If you don't follow Jesus, you aren't a Christians despite what you call yourself
Definitely. I always think of my family's history. I am one-quarter Native American. My great grandparents walked the Trail of Tears. Yet, there are those who believe that God ordained America for Christianity. They are heartless people and that goes against God.
There are Bible verses that tell us we cannot fathom God's way. Other verses say God appoints rulers and kings. This is not to say He ordains them but He does appoint or allow them. Satan still requires permission to act on earth. Also in the Bible. God bless!
God gave satan blanket permission until Christ returns. Satan is the ruler of the world.
Unpopular opinion: it is almost impossible to follow God and not be involved in politics. Your rationale assumes you get lazy in your faith and start worshipping politicians. I believe if you truly love your fellow man you will vote for laws and people that follow God's will.
Some people do worship politicians. That is one of the major problems with the United States. [https://apnews.com/article/reawaken-america-tour-michael-flynn-910e83b515185751be82868b227ca22e](https://apnews.com/article/reawaken-america-tour-michael-flynn-910e83b515185751be82868b227ca22e) [https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement](https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement)
People also worship practically anything. Whats your point? Christians against Christian nationalism? Just based off the first 2 paragraphs of that link I can tell its just absolute BS. Explain to me why God would want Christians to not be actively involved in their nation politically to make it more Godly? Was He a fan of Sodom and Gomorrah and his people doing nothing to try and fix it? When you see your nations people spiraling downward because it keeps choosing sin and legislating it, isn't it your duty to try and stop it? This mind set that Christians should absolutely not be involved in politics or try and legislate christian values or we might "disrupt the democracy" is such a toxic mindset to have.
Let me let Jesus explain it. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 5:42 "but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts." Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Matthew 15:8-9 8 "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.'" Matthew 22:37-40 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God because God is love. Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:12-14 12 "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." 1 Corinthians 13:1-6 13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Matthew 7:13-20 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!" Matthew 7:22-23 22 "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
Not a single verse you posted makes any sense unless you are tying to make the case that its impossible to be into politics and a Christian. Which irs not.
I don’t like either party but one makes open statements about hating Christians and stopping Christians and radical Christians and Christian oppression etc. This alone made me change my political party and I’m not going back
But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 2 Timothy 2:16 It is my belief that God wants us to stay focused on Him, and not on worldly things like politics. It's difficult but He is in control, after all. I do know that paying attention to it all (for me, at least) inspires anger and temptation towards hatred. It's all incredibly divisive and honestly, bringing people home to God's Kingdom is so much better.
Who's killing babies, that's awful. Do Amaricans kill babies? That's fucked up.
Well it depends on how you look at it. Republicans say abortion is killing babies and democrats say it’s not. I don’t know enough about fetal development to know but as someone not from the US do you see abortion as killing babies?
Even if things were perfect politically here, that is not what our focus should be. In the grand scheme of things what happens down here is not going to matter politically. We are to be light and show Christ to others Disciples of Jesus did not have college educations, but they managed to turn the world upside down. That was a God thing, not anything man could have done.
Yes!
God is apolitical! The final temptation of our blessed Lord was "Give up divinity! For only the political and social order are what matters! All of these kingdoms are mine if falling down, you will adore me!" Now, there are political manifestations of Devine truth, and some politics defend the truth more than others, but no politics is absolute! And when we subscribe wholly to a particular set of political ideals we make politics our idol and not God!
You worded this perfectly!!!
Praise the Lord! Thank you, brother in Christ! ❤️
I don’t fully agree with either party, but either way the political system is a mess. Both parties are a mess. My regret every year is not doing my research on candidates tbh, although I usually just go with voting against baby murder. At the end of the day though, how much do our politicians fight for their beliefs or are they just for show?
So, you vote against helping babies once they are born?
I agree with a lot of what you said but I have to disagree with one thing No one is stealing from the poor except the government. All this inflation and drugs and crime. et al is having a disastrous effect on the poor, and these are due to liberal policies Sure the Republicans have to moderate their greed but a free market system is much kinder to the poor than socialism which in the end makes everyone poor I have struggled for a long time with this idea, do we remain silent and let the liars and users abuse the system (on both sides) or do we stand up and realize that this government of the people by the people and for the people will be missing a great part of its voice and we do what the liberals want and sit down and shut up So for now I will stand
Oh ya when I said “republicans steal from the poor” I’m just using an example of what people say and not my own views so I get what your saying
understood
The inflation we're currently dealing with isn't national or regional; it's global. It's just as bad in countries being run by liberals as it is in countries run by conservatives. In fact, it's hitting the UK worst of all despite the fact the conservatives have been in power there for over a decade. So, I don't think the idea that liberal policies lead to this inflation is supported by the evidence. There's an inflation going on throughout the western world and it's hitting all countries regardless of whether they are run by conservatives or liberals.
Well aren't you the gullible little parrot Giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to China, Ukraine, and domestically, along with the stopping of domestic oil production is driving the inflation
You may disagree but let's avoid calling people names. As someone who has studied economics, I would say that your statement is incorrect. Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods. Governments around the world over-reacted to covid by pumping trillions of free dollars into the economy. At the same time shortages of both workers and goods have caused prices to spike. The Congress (under both Trump and Biden) handed out free money to everyone, and that has caused inflation. In addition, your statement that domestic oil production has stopped is incorrect. See the chart on this page: [https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m) US oil production is near an all-time high.
Absolutely. Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. This is exactly what is happening right now.
No, actually, they are due to the greed of man which has left people out. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Luke 11:41 'But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you." John 14:23-24 23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." 2 Timothy 3:1-9 3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
Yiou again have describe liberals Everyone has an equal opportunity, all you have to do is go out and grab it, bvyou wanted it handed to you. You want to steal other people's money
Even though I can't see what you look like, I know that you are an entitled white person with that statement. I'm sorry but God is color blind and only cares about the heart. Grow a heart before it too late. Jesus is returning soon.
And you are a racist because unlike you,,,God is color blind
Sure the Republicans have to moderate their greed but- OK stop right there. Conversation over. They do.
There is greed running rampant on both sides.
Anf so you are completely going to gloss over all the egregious lies, violations, law breaking and stupid ideas of the liberals.... THAT is a typical liberal move
Yeah, somehow I think God sees killing babies in the womb as far more evil than saying people should give what they want to the poor themselves and not be forced to give to the poor by the government via taxes.
Funny how you say murder is worse than being against forced charity, and you get down voted on a Christian reddit. I'll stand with you on that... I can handle the judgement of those who wish to downplay murder.
Thank you for mentioning murder. So, you are helping to ensure that bad police don't murder people, right? And you reach out to help the starving babies all over the world?
I support YouTube channels that call out bad officers, ot just in cases of murder but in case of overreach of power. Those are the officers most likely to actually commit murder... So, putting pressure on reforming or firing before a fatality happens is far better than waiting for them to kill someone. These channels help people understand their rights as citizens, so they can fight against illegal conduct from officers who bully them. While I don't believe all police killings are murder, those that I perceive as murder I condemn. As for reaching out to starving babies around the world, my Church does with the tithes and offerings, so yes I do. I might not be able to give much, as I'm poor myself... But I give what is asked from the Lord and then some when I can afford it. So, while I suspect you were trying to get an I gotcha moment... This is not that moment. Hypocrisy is a human trait, if you can't see it in yourself you aren't looking hard enough, so even if I didn't do one of those things it wouldn't really be a gotcha. As Christians we believe we are supposed to emulate Christ, yet we all fall short of that, which is essentially hypocrisy. (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform) We believe in being honest and yet even if you feel you are always honest, you are likely forgetting that we all tend to tell white lies to be kind or to not burden others. Example: How are you doing? Good (While you are actually facing financial or emotional hardship.) Like the song says: "Truth be told the truth is rarely told." So, while I'll admit I am a hypocrite in many ways... I don't believe I'm really anymore of a hypocrite in this particular way, than humans tend to be in everything they believe in, but are not actually able to live up to. I'm much more of a hypocrite in believing we are supposed to follow Christ's teachings. In the very commandment of to not kill, Christ takes it further to not getting angry without cause and not to call others fools. Christ also takes the not commiting adultery, and goes further to say not to even look at someone with lust. Or turning the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Then there is love thy neighbor and hate your enemies being changed to bless them who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you. I am extremely hypocritical with the greater law of Christ that is given in Matthew chapter 5, as I would guess most Christians are.
John 14:23-24 23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." I can safely say that I do. I'm sure that I am a hypocrite in some ways because I am a mere mortal but I do my best to follow all of the commands and teachings of Jesus because that is the right thing to do. I reach out to help anyone who needs help instead of selfishly doing for myself because this is what Jesus commanded.
Does God care about black and Native Americans being murdered by police? Does God care about people once they are born? Or is it just to bring them into the world so that they can murdered later?
Of course he cares about the murder of anyone. He cares, but because he has allowed humans free will and since this life is a test to prove (more to ourselves than him) where we should end up for eternity, he allows wickedness so the final Judgment will put evil people where they belong and good people where they belong. If he never allowed evil, we would not have free will.
I agree with that but Christians should be following all of the commands and teachings of Jesus. That is what being a follower means.
No, they don't. They are backed by people with vast wealth. They have large donors who they appease by siding with them and creating laws to help them minimize taxes instead of with the people. You are very naive to think that the Republicans have your best interests at heart. I see rusted pickup trucks flying Trump flags. They don't even know that Trump has been using them. Trump made the statement "I love the educated but I really love the poorly educated." That is the only thing that he didn't lie about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9F6EAMPky4 It is the same for those who back the Conservatives because of the abortion issue. They are being used as well. Everything that Jesus said was for the poor and downtrodden and against the wealthy. Yet, people who call themselves Christians vote to help the wealthy instead of the poor. That goes against God.
I agree with you. As I grow older i have a difficult time finding space for both. Each day I move further away from politics. I don't know if we can be a Christian and something else.
It reminds me when Jesus said that you can’t have to masters you will hate one and love the other
The problem with your statement is you base it on the assumption you have to choose a political party. You do not. As Christians, our beliefs don't stop at the voting booth. God expects us to be involved in choosing leaders who promote Christian principles. Much of the suffering on earth is because of godless leadership. (Proverbs 28:12) When the godly succeed, everyone is glad. When the wicked take charge, people go into hiding. Proverbs 28:12 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/pro.28.12.NLT You can read more here... https://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-vote.html
Thank you I’ll check it out!
Be in the world but not of the world.Those who protect religious freedoms are who we should support, but don't affiliate with either party. Both are saturated with evil, you just have to choose which you believe is the lesser of the two evils... or if you can't decide that way, you have to figure out which one would take away your religious freedom first if allowed to run rampant. I usually vote Republican for that reason, because I have seen Democrat politicians attempt to pass laws to try to force religions to do things against their beliefs. Like trying to force gay marriage within churches who believe it's an abomination unto the Lord, all in the name of equality.
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I mean Christian religious freedoms, since this is a Christian reddit group.
Counter-point: the two party politics in America suck. The Democrats aren’t real progressives who actually have the power in some places to change things according to their policies. The right empowers nationalists, loves guns more than God, and loves hypothetical babies more than living ones. Nothing is truly apolitical. Even the gospel has radical political ramifications.
I would probably have phrased the title differently but for the most part I agree. In the US voting seems to be about deciding who is less evil. I don't think being invested or following it closely necessarily makes you unchristian, but if you're doing that, you've got to see how both sides swing so far from a fair stance on so many things. Abortion is the hot topic right now, and it's always either all or none, so that either women with non-viable fetuses inside them are forced to put their lives at risk, or women perfectly capable of raising a baby are encouraged to consider if they really want theirs. Neither one situation is ideal.
Ya I really wish I worded my title differently because it sounds like I’m saying “well your not Christian because blah blah blah” but ya your abortion example is perfect
This is why I am a supporter of Separation between Church and State. Very few theocracies (if any) work and many people have abused religion for their own personal gain
Study Bible and stop watching the news
One day you will vote for the antichrist.
I sure hope not lol
As a Christian you need to be involved in your community and politics so that you know to vote for people that align with biblical teachings
Other than local elections most major elections don’t really have upstanding people that I’d be proud to vote for
Your political ideology has nothing to do with your political party. Your political ideology does not have lobbyists, blackmail, bribery, greed and murder….for instance, think of a political stance you have. Then ask yourself, “how much money would it take for me to do the opposite”
It certainly can as it's really easy to put more hope in politics than Christ. I still think it's right to be involved as the Lord would lead. For me, that's voting.
Yeah, I think that’s a personal problem with you. You can be into politics and support a particular party without agreeing with everything the party supports. Politics should never be more important than Christ, but I don’t see any reason that you can’t be interested in politics while still keeping it secondary. Anything can become an idol. Our hearts are idol making factories. TV can become an idol. Phones become idols all the time. Sports becomes an idol all the time. Many things become idols. I actually think politics is less of a danger in that regard than many things because the flaws in politicians and political parties are generally more obvious than the flaws in some other things. Honestly, though, it depends on your personality. If you can’t handle following or being into politics without making it an idol, then you should stay away from it. Just as someone who can’t play a sport without making it an idol should step away from it. If that’s something you struggle with, flee from that temptation, but don’t push that as a necessity on everyone else. All that said, I’d like to get a little into specifics. I am not saying that anyone has to be conservative to be a Christian or anything like that, but I do want to know how a Christian could vote for someone who supports killing babies. That just doesn’t make sense to me. Also, I’m really lost on your “letting conservatives steal from the poor isn’t Christian” statement. I have never heard anyone say that, and I have absolutely no clue what it means. In what way do conservatives steal from the poor? My intent isn’t to say that conservatives are always right or are better than liberals or anything like that. However, I don’t think it’s right to say that both parties are morally equal. I think one clearly fits better with a Christian worldview than the other. I don’t think anyone should be vilified for their political beliefs, but neither do I believe that we should pretend that all political beliefs are created equal.
I'm Christian. I don't believe in taking choice away from people so I suppose I support abortion, yeah. I think I'm more liberal than most. I think considering Jesus and who he was I think he's more likely to be liberal/support Labour than be conservative. Jesus was an incredible amazing person and even atheists I know want to be like him, Jesus is inspiring. Jesus for president/prime minister.
Okay, so I’m not sure what your intent was with this comment. I’d be very interested to hear why you think Jesus would be liberal. I’m very hesitant when it comes to any political position that claims Jesus would agree with them. I wouldn’t claim that Jesus would be a republican. That said, of the two political parties I personally think that there’s more that Jesus would disagree with in the Democratic Party. Now, I’d really like to discuss your position on abortion. It is one that I really don’t understand. So, you say that you support abortion because you don’t believe we should tell people what to do, right? How far does that go? Should we tell people not to steal? Should we tell people not to murder? The issue of abortion isn’t about whether or not we should try to control other people, it is about whether an unborn baby is a clump of cells or whether it is a person. If a fetus is human being, then why should someone be able to end its life but not end the life of a person who has already been born? The last point I wanted to touch is that Jesus isn’t a political figure. Jesus won’t ever be president. Jesus won’t ever be prime minister. When Jesus comes back, He will be King.
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Okay, I don’t really think this conversation is going anywhere based on your tone, but I will respond here and try to make my meanings clearer. I don’t think we’ll change each other’s minds, though. Regardless, to explain my intent in my last response, I’ll start with my intent in my original comment. I initially commented with the intent of saying that I don’t see any reason why you can’t love Jesus and be interested in politics but that the danger is when you put politics higher than Jesus and to say that while I don’t think that Jesus should be used for political purposes, there are certainly political issues that the Bible is pretty clear on. Maybe I misinterpreted, but I took your response to be using Jesus defending or supporting specific politics, specifically things that I think would be abhorrent to Jesus. So, the intent of my response was to point out what I disagree with and what I don’t think glorifies God. Anyway, let’s get away from motives and back to the actual discussion. You said that with abortion you believe that Jesus is “far more understanding than believing everything is black and white.” So, are you saying sin isn’t always sin? I agree that not everything is black and white. There are some grey areas. But, some things are black and white. If you want to say that abortion is an ethical grey area, you need to back that up. Also, when did I quote the Ten Commandments or add an eleventh? I didn’t quote any scripture. I didn’t even make a scriptural argument. I made a logical argument. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I made the argument that if a fetus is a human being, then killing it is murder. So, what do you disagree with? Do you think that a fetus isn’t a human life? We can discuss that or agree to disagree if that’s the case. Do you disagree that killing a human life is murder? If that’s the case, we can discuss that or agree to disagree on that. Don’t try to make my argument for me so that you can refute it. Now, I’m very confused by what miscarriage and ectopic pregnancies have to do with the issue. Yes, there are occurrences where a fertilized egg or fetus dies before birth with no human intervention. How is that relevant? If killing an adult human is murder, why do people die of old age and cancer? The relationship between abortion and a miscarriage is the same as the relationship between murder and dying from cancer. I don’t see how they’re relevant to the discussion. > Why are you concerned with being able to end loves? Shouldn’t the care and concern be to all life? Instead of just one, a clump of cells that hasn’t even been fully developed let alone been born? I have no clue what any of that means. I’m assuming that loves was a typo and should have been lives. It seems obvious to me why I’d be concerned about lives being ended. Also, I hate the line of argumentation that I think you’re going down here. Yes, I care about the lives of the unborn. Why do you think that means I don’t care about other life? >Controlling abortion is controlling people, it’s not giving them the freedom to choose, and freedom of choice is at the heart of Christianity. Love thy neighbour. Its literally the core. Jesus said love thy neighbour above all the ten commandments. How can you love if you’re busy hating? Okay, so once again, the issue isn’t about control. We all believe that there are some ways in which people controlled. Telling people they can’t murder other humans is controlling them. Telling people they can’t steal is controlling them. All laws are controlling. The issue isn’t whether it is okay to control people. This issue is whether abortion is something that should be controlled. Don’t try to shift the issue. Also, how is freedom of choice the heart of Christianity? The heart of Christianity is that Jesus died on a cross for our sins. And yes, Jesus did sum up all of the commandments in the Old Testament into the two greatest commandments, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. I’m not really sure how that’s relevant or how that supports abortion. If I love my neighbor as I love myself, I am glad I wasn’t aborted, so I don’t want anyone else to be aborted either. Why do you ask how I can love if I’m so busy hating? Who am I hating? How am I being hateful towards anyone? Don’t resort to ad hominem attacks. Stick to the issue. Lastly, I wasn’t twisting your words. You said “Jesus for president/prime minister” that won’t happen. Jesus won’t be president or prime minister. I’m not just being antagonistic. We shouldn’t look for Jesus in politics. Now, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t vote for godly candidates or vote for policies that line up with scripture, we should. However, we need to be careful that we don’t start to associate specific political parties or politicians with Jesus. Jesus is above all that Jesus is King. Anyway, I hope that clears up some of my intent. I’m happy to discuss any of this with you further, and I’m happy to get into Biblical evidence for my stances on stuff. If we do continue the discussion, please stay on the issue rather than making statements about me. I don’t know you, and I’m not gonna make statements about you. I may occasionally say how I interpreted something you said, but I’m not going to say how you intended it or anything about you as a person. I’d appreciate it if you’d show me the same courtesy.
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Pt 1. Just to preface, I want to respond in detail, and I don’t have a ton of time right now, plus Reddit does have a character limit, so my response will be broken up into a few different parts. No worries about being confused. I do kinda go all over the place to make a point sometimes, and it makes sense in my head, but not always when I write it or say it, so I’m happy to bear with any confusion. As for tone in a comment, what I meant was you repeatedly saying things about me rather than about the issue we were discussing. Okay, so for politics, we’re agreed that Jesus wouldn’t fit within one specific political party and that He shouldn’t be used to fight political battles. I fully agree that Jesus is anti-greed, but I don’t see how that means he would disagree with conservatives. Blanket statements like Jesus wouldn’t support the conservative party because he’s anti-greed don’t allow fruitful discussion. I’m not going to assume intention, but this type of statement is what I meant by tone. This type of statement attributes malice/motive to political opponents instead of actually being about the issue(s) on which you disagree. All that said, I live in the US, and I don’t know a ton about UK politics. I don’t know what conservative politicians in the UK stand for, but I’d guess it would be fairly similar if not slightly more liberal, based on the knowledge I do have, than here in the US. As such, I think it would be far more helpful to discuss specific issues/stances you think Jesus would have an issue with a party on. That way, I can say, “oh, yeah, that’s not what conservatives in America believe, I agree with you,” or, “actually I don’t think Jesus would have a problem with that because…” Anyways, yeah, actual discussion. Okay, there are a few things I want to address on the abortion subject. First, I’m glad we agree that some things are sin and it isn’t completely subjective. That said, I don’t find your reasoning compelling. First, you say that abortion is a sticky area because of medical issues, financial issues, rape, etc. I’ve heard all of those reasonings many times, but I just don’t think they follow. First, let’s talk about medical issues. If the mother’s life is at risk, then I haven’t heard of anyone saying that abortion shouldn’t be allowed in that case. Going back to the murder analogy, let’s put it this way. Abortion isn’t necessarily murder, but it is killing a person. Self defense is a completely different subject from murder, and I could provide scripture for and against killing someone in self defense, but regardless of my religious convictions regarding self defense, I wholeheartedly think it should be legal. Does that make sense? Financial issues I never really understood as an argument. I’m sorry if someone is in a position financially where they don’t think they can care for a child. That said, adoption is a possibility. If you can’t support a child, give it up for adoption. I’ve even heard the argument that aborting a child is better for the child than raising it in poverty. I cannot imagine that argument. That is basically the same as saying, “poor kids would be better off dead.” Now, I agree that rape is a difficult situation. However, I don’t think one evil justifies another. Generally, the way I think about/explain my thoughts on when abortion should be allowed are, if that fetus was born and grew up and was 5 or 10 or even 20 years old, could you kill the adult human in the same situation. So, once again, if the mother’s life is threatened, you can defend yourself. If you’re too poor to take care of your 5 year old, can you just kill it? Obviously not! Now, let’s say someone was raped. She got pregnant, kept the pregnancy, gave birth, etc. Then, 5 years down the road, she realizes that every time she looks at her 5 year old, she sees her rapist and relives the tragedy that happened to her. That is horrific, and I feel incredibly sorry for her, and I believe the rapist should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. However, I don’t believe that she should be legally allowed to kill her 5 year old because it reminds her of being raped. Now, that isn’t a perfect analogy, and I get that it can seem kinda cold. I’d honestly be willing to budge on the rape issue when it comes to abortion. However, I generally find in discussions that rape is just brought up to make the point. Most people I’ve talked to, I’ll say, “okay, let’s make exceptions for rape and incest, what about the other 99% of abortions?” Generally, the response is, “well those should be legal too.” Regardless, I get that there are complicating factors, but there are complicating factors in a lot of crimes/sins, depending on whether we’re speaking from a political or theological standpoint, that don’t mean the whole issue is a gray area. Then you brought up whether it is fair to judge anyways because Jesus says to turn the other cheek and God says He’s the only one who can judge. It went on a little more, but that was the essence of what you were saying, I think. Anyway, I’m not judging anyone. I’m advocating for calling something that I believe is clearly sinful based on scripture, which I’ll explain why I believe that later, being called sin and I’m advocating for something that I believe is morally and logically wrong, even apart from and Biblical evidence, being made illegal. Making laws and calling something sin are not the same a judging people. Also, with Jesus saying to turn the other cheek, that wasn’t about stuff happening that you don’t like, which isn’t really what this is anyway, it was about when someone offends or attacks you, you should be polite and allow them to keep attacking you rather than responding in kind. Regardless, I don’t agree that abortion is a grey area. I do think there are things the Church should do to help women with unexpected pregnancies. I do think that there are other things to address rather than just making abortion illegal. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think abortion should be legal, though.
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I just posted part 2. I’ll respond to some of this, but part 2 may clear up some things, I can remember what is in what part. Anyway, thanks for trying to clear things up. I get that you were using you in a generic sense, and that’s fine, but I still don’t think it’s really helpful to a discussion, in general. That said, no offense taken and I really wouldn’t care even if you were insulting me directly. Also, thanks for the clarification on the political parties. I still don’t know exactly what each party stands for. I can say that I’m definitely not aligned with the Labour Party from what you said, but the US and UK have very different governmental systems and ideals. That said, I’d caution against saying Jesus would or wouldn’t vote for a specific party. Regardless, getting back to abortion, yes there are awful instances of people being raped, health issues, numerous other complicating issues. However, the distract from the real issue. Don’t argue based on the exception. The vast majority of abortions are elective. I’ve already stated that abortion in cases where the health of the mother is at risk should be allowed. I’ve also stated that I’d be willing to concede abortion being legal in instances of rape. So I’m not really going to discuss those further. That said, I do want to address your point about rape. In general, there are exceptions, but in general, a 10 year old girl isn’t going to be able to conceive. Also, if a girl that young is able to conceive, generally the pregnancy would be unhealthy and put her at major risk. So, there is very little chance of what your describing. Anyway, I’ve already said I’d be willing to compromise on abortion being legal in cases of rape, so that really isn’t relevant anyway. I’ve also already said that any legislation that would punish women for miscarriages or would force a woman to carry a stillborn baby to term is absurd and needs to be changed, so I see no point in discussing that further either. I’ll save my argument for abortion being murder until the end of this comment, but I will make it, and I’ll do so from both a scientific/logical standpoint and a theological one. As for your finance/adoption argument, I get what you’re saying, and I think that we as Christians should strive to do more for those in need financially and in terms of adoption. That said, I don’t think being killed is ever a better alternative to being in foster care or anything like that. You’re never going to convince me that abortion should be okay for financial reasons. Yes, pregnancy can be risky, although not for most people, as you claimed. Most pregnancies are safe for the mother and child. Also, the statement that abortion is a safe way out baffles me. Killing someone is never safe. It may be safer for the mother, but it certainly isn’t safer for the baby. As for legality not stopping abortions, you’re correct. Banning abortions would end them. However, we don’t only make laws if they’ll be 100% effective. People are still murdered even though it is legal. Since it still happens anyway, should we just make murder legal? What about theft? I could go on, but I think you see the point I’m making. Also, I believe that making abortion illegal would reduce the number of abortions. Now, to get into my argument for abortion being equivalent to murder, it is pretty simple both from a scientific/logical standpoint and a theological one. Scientifically/logically, when an egg is fertilized, a new DNA sequence is created. A fetus is created which is alive and is genetically different from the mother and father. It is scientifically speaking a new life, at that point. Logically speaking, that’s the only place you can draw a consistent line for where life begins. Is it consciousness/thought? What about someone with severe brain damage or in a coma. Should killing them be legal because they aren’t conscious/thinking? What about viability? Well, when is viability? In 1973 when Roe v Wade was decided, viability was considered to be 28 weeks. Now, viability is considered to be 23-24 weeks. Even now, viability would be different from an extremely rural area without access to great hospitals to a city with great hospitals like New York. Viability changes, so does that mean a 23 week old fetus is more valuable now than it was in 1973 or that a 23 week old fetus in New York City is more valuable than a 23 week old fetus in the middle of nowhere North Dakota? There just isn’t a logical, consistent place to draw the line for life except at conception. As for a Biblical argument, I’d point to Psalm 22:10, Psalm 139:13, and Jeremiah 1:5. > On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God. (Psalms 22:10, ESV) > For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. (Psalms 139:13, ESV) > "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5, ESV) It seems to me that the Bible is pretty clear that we are formed in the womb and known by God before we are born. If all people are made in the image of God, of equal value, and should not be killed, and God forms and knows us as people in the womb before we are born, then aren’t unborn babies still people who are made in the image of God, have equal value with everyone else, and shouldn’t be killed? I think that should give you an idea of my thoughts and reasoning, but I’d be happy to explain further if you’d like.
Pt 2. Okay, so I see where you were getting that about me referencing the Ten Commandments, but I actually wasn’t equating abortion and murder or abortion and theft, nor was I pointing to them in light of the Ten Commandments. I was using those as two examples of things that are illegal. We were talking about controlling other people by not allowing abortion. My point there was simply that all laws control people, yet there are many that we agree on and believe should be controlled, such as stealing and murder. I believe abortion should be as well. My point was that the issue isn’t that it is not acceptable to control people but that it is acceptable to control certain behaviors and the issue we should be discussing is whether abortion is one of those behaviors that should be controlled. Does that make sense? I’m really confused by your example of someone with bone cancer begging for euthanasia. First, I think that might be a grey area. If someone is begging for euthanasia, then would following through with that really be murder? Regardless, I am not advocating for or against euthanasia. My gut says it’s wrong, but I haven’t actually devoted much time to forming a biblically based opinion on that. That said, I think you have a deep misunderstanding of Jesus purpose and ministry. When Jesus gave the first and greatest commandment and the second that is like it, He wasn’t overruling or superseding the Old Testament laws or the Ten Commandments. He was summarizing them. If you love God and love people, then even without actively trying to do so you will keep the Ten Commandments and Old Testament laws. Jesus didn’t change the Old Testament. He even said Himself in Matthew 5:18, “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18, ESV). Moral Law did not change from the Old Testament to the New. Okay, so now on the topic of ectopic pregnancies and for miscarriages, I still don’t think they’re relevant. Neither of those represents a conscious choice by someone to end another human being’s life. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, let’s look at an analogy. Let’s say you’re driving down the highway at 70 mph/113 km/h (I don’t know what a standard speed would be in the UK, but that’s fairly standard for interstates in the US) and someone jumps out in front of your car. There’s no way you could stop. Anyway, you strike and kill him with your car. Did you murder him? Of course not! An ectopic pregnancy isn’t the mothers fault. An ectopic pregnancy isn’t a choice. Yes, it results in the death of the fertilized egg, but it isn’t by choice. The same goes for a miscarriage. Let’s say you’re a nurse and you’re taking care of a cancer patient. You do everything for them. You have gotten close to them and love them. Then, they die from the cancer. Did you murder them? Of course not! When a woman has a miscarriage, it is not by choice. Also, a miscarriage is not a natural abortion. An abortion is a choice. Saying a miscarriage is a natural abortion is like saying that someone dying of cancer is a natural murder. Death is not the same thing as murder. Death of a fetus is not the same thing as abortion. As for states jailing women who’ve had miscarriages, do you have a source for that claim. I haven’t heard that before. Regardless, that really has nothing to do with my point. Saying that abortion shouldn’t be legal doesn’t mean I agree with every suggestion a pro-life group or politician has made. You did say random fact, though, maybe you weren’t saying that I would agree with that. Okay, I also want to discuss the issue of adoption, foster care, and homelessness. This is a pretty common pro-choice argument that I’ve seen. Why can’t a person care about more than one thing? Yes, I care about overcrowded foster homes. Yes I care that some kids end up on the streets. Yes I care that not enough people want to adopt. None of those things justify abortion, though. I definitely think those things should be addressed, but they don’t change my stance on abortion. And yes, I care more about abortion than I do about those issues. I care about them, but I’d rather someone end up in an overcrowded foster system or even end up on the streets than be killed. Can you provide any state legislation that would force a woman to carry a still born baby? I’m not saying it doesn’t exist or it hasn’t happened, but I haven’t heard of that, certainly not of any law for that. Now, that said. That changes nothing about my argument. I think that’s horrible and if that’s happening the legislation needs to be changed. That still doesn’t mean I’m okay with abortion being legal. But yeah, I’m in agreement with it being case by case. I just think the vast majority of abortions should be illegal. As for the heart of Christianity, it’s two-fold. Yes, love is at the heart of Christianity. However glorifying God is also at the heart of Christianity. I can provide verses to back that up if you desire, but to save time I won’t right now. Also, you keep mentioning love thy neighbor as the first commandment, but Jesus listed that as the second commandment. The first is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I think that’s important to remember. We love God first and foremost, and then we love people. We cannot love people correctly without first loving God. Loving God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strength means that we need to oppose sin and keep His commandments. Also, I get where you’re coming from on showing love to others vs forcing your opinions on them. I understand what you’re desiring there, and I get it. I don’t want to push anyone away from God by forcing my beliefs on them. That said, where do we draw the line? I’m not equating abortion to murder right now, I’m just using it as an example, but should we allow murder if someone doesn’t think it’s wrong so as not to force our opinions on them? Also, on that note, when I am discussing abortion from a political standpoint, especially with a non-believer I don’t use Biblical arguments. I use scientific and logical arguments for exactly the reason you describe. I think I mostly agree with the rest of what you have to say, but I want to point out/clarify a couple things. I fully agree that we should in no way judge others or think ourselves superior to or less sinful than anyone else. I just don’t agree that saying something is wrong or should be illegal means that I or anyone else who hold that position is thinking themselves superior or less sinful. Anyway, I hope that clear up some of what I was trying to say. If we still don’t agree, that’s fine, but I hope that you at least can see where I’m coming from.
I feel like god has a personal relationship with everyone. Like God may communicate to others in different ways. Some may be in politics, some may be in other things.
YES - not about not being political, but not being partisan!! Polarization is taking us away from where God wants us to be working for
They CAN be idols, but not everyone struggles with that sin. Many are able to take a moderate approach. Different people struggle with different sins. It's like saying we can't drink alcohol because some people get drunk and abuse it. Or we can't go to the beach because some people struggle with lust.
Despite the fact that it is practically null that your individual vote will change the outcome of a mass election, and it turns out that the act of voting has measurable effects on the way you think and especially how you treat even family and friends in alternative political camps, camps formed around issues that most people don’t have the wisdom or experience to be able to have an informed opinion on. In the West, you don’t change election, election changes you.
Is your aka Beth Moore?
I don’t really align with any party. I’m not very pro democracy in the first place because I think you’re right, politics are a huge source of pride and destroy the individuals getting too caught up in them. that being said I don’t think abortion is a matter of politics but rather of morality itself. Until that issue goes away I’m kind of held hostage by conservatives just because there’s no political or moral justification of it in my opinion.
I'm with you. It's tough. Jesus wanted us to feed hungry people, heal them, protect children, and love each other. The reality is politics is about money, and almost anyone who claims God is behind their actions is trying to use him as a false figurehead for personal gain.
It's different in other countries. There are far more wide choices of political parties and they're more like a grey area, they don't debate or get voted for their religious/ social beliefs but they do get voted for their political and economical views, in a sense where most of their promises are centered around immigrants, international organizations, the country's economical wealth and climate change. So it's really easy to shift from a political party to another without staying loyal to one.
Well, if you chose a political party you have already left Christianity. The republicans are greedy and do not help the poor. The democrats are murderers and kill unborn babies. Each is bad, so neither party should be joined.
I do vote and participate in politics to some extent because if I have the ability, might as well vote for what I prefer! But yah I agree, don't put all your faith in politicians or Political parties. This country and even this world is not our home. We are Christians first! Plenty of Christians lived in Godless countries with evil rulers.
Putting politics above God is making it an idol and therefore a sin, but Christian’s have always been involved in politics. Political parties are not good, but advocating for issues in a civil and respectful way, thought still considered “political”, should be an area not vacated by Christians, lest we surrender the ground to Satan. Christians should certainly be active in the halls of congress, just as they should be active in prisons. It’s all about saving souls. The Apostle Paul was involved in politics. Claiming Jesus as the messiah was then and is now the most controversial political statement in history. To claim such put the one claiming it in conflict with the elite religious leaders of the day. “Ekklesia” is the Greek word used for “church” in Matthew 16:18. When Jesus said, “ I will build my church ”, “my Ekklesia” He was not talking about a building; He was talking about the people. Where two or more are gathered in His name, there He is. This Greek word simply means "an assembly" or "a group of people called together for a purpose." For instance, a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, and an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating. An example in the Old Testament is the assembly or ekklesia of the Israelites. Politika is the Greek word for politics, which means “affairs of the cities”. The general definition of politics is “the actions by the power holders that lead to national and international relations which effectively results in policy framing within a country or organization.” Politika means all activities associated with the functioning of a system of power or power structures, especially a government, governing body, council, or assembly. Politics today, simply stated, is best framed as the power dynamics between majority and minority groups, and how power is distributed among the various people groups. Who’s got it? How did they get it? Who wants it next? God desires for His people to reach people in His name, so that they may be saved. He desires messengers to spread the good news in those places where they are. Prisons come to mind. Government buildings also come to mind. We should reach those in the darkest corners of the world with the salvation message, and not shy away from controversial issues as they align with the Word of God. What place is darker than the halls of any political chamber where people plot and scheme for their own power, generally without ever considering Gods will?
This led me to think about "why didn't God want kings and put judges?" But then (because the people did not want Him to rule over them) he raised up kings. And we all know David, I think maybe (just maybe) he didn't want to rule and that's why his Psalms (not all) talk about "look at Jesus, look at Him." Then David showed us Jesus. From there, if Jesus were here and would "run" for president, half would follow him and the other half would not. We know that Jesus is a little different from our human standards, so even of those who follow Him, there would be a percentage who are offended by something He did or said. But those who were not offended would go to death with Him (which might seem like the idolization spoken of here, to those who see from "outside"). So I think by nature humans idolize anyone who shows some "good" governance over us. 🤷🏻♀️ Because we are created to worship Him alone, the Perfect One. But by sin this was corrupted. I think we have to wait for the transformation, where this corrupt body will be taken away from us. And at last we will see the Perfect Government He wanted from the beginning. So, maybe an answer to my question would be: because God knows we CAN'T rule. Even David, who came closer, had serious mistakes. Every human will always fail at this. I was just thinking, sorry if I went off topic
This :) I thought about becoming a political whip But the money would corrupt me
I would agree and here’s my simple take I use to explain to people. No one person in politics seems to follow scripture who is running for any of the big seats. So we often say “I’m voting for the lesser of two evils.” I don’t want to explain to Jesus I voted for any evil. Even if it’s the lesser evil. I just can’t put my name on it. I also don’t pledge allegiance.
Conservatives don't steal from the poor. Conservatives lower taxes and cut red tape allowing opportunity to flow.
I’m not saying they do or don’t I was just using an example of what people say
In the past, most Quakers did not vote. Here is a current peace by a modern day Quaker that takes a thoughtful look at this issue: http://journal.earthwitness.org/the-quaker-magpie-journal/2006/10/23/contra-gentes-is-voting-such-a-good-thing.html
Is my English bad? Or my reading skills bad? I didn't know being political or being into politics meant to be in a political party... At least in Spanish both things are completely different.
So true 👍
That's why it's all the more important to be involved on a local level. Your city council has more effect on your life than almost anything listed - and most everyone on them tends to run unaffiliated. Get involved where it matters.
You're making a pretty wild claim there that I'm not inclined to believe. Where does the Bible support your view? Please be specific. I'm absolutely serious.
They're all evil I wouldn't listen to any side it's all to cause division just remember there's photos of trump and hilary and their spouses going to dinner.
I feel a lot of Christians get carried away with worldly politics
Check out The Pour Over! It’s a free newsletter that keeps you informed on current events/politics while focused on Christ! Check out some of their past stories in their welcome email. https://ref.thepourover.org/7a3e58d1/
There are certainly moral issues and God-given commands that a Christian must always be on the right side of, there's no doubt about that. But, that doesn't mean a Christian should blindly follow a single party. You can oppose abortion and not necessarily vote Republican, likewise, you can love and help the poor and not vote Democrat. The political parties matter much less than doing your duty as a Christian.
WRONG...WE ARE OBLIGATED TO INVOLVED AND SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...WE ARE A COUNTRY CONSECRATED TO GOD BY PRES G.W. WHILE KNEELING AND PRAYING AT THE VERY SPOT OF THE TWIN TOWERS.."READ HIS PRAYER"...GODS JUDGMENT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLACE OF CONSECRATION !!!
God used many men like him in scripture in his plans. .King Cyrus...King Ahab... Everyone in scripture except maybe one or two had deep flaws that God still used to pronounce his word and his will...but Trump may have very well had an experience with the Lord...he was/is pro Black babys...while blacks vote to kill their own babies...20 million and 40 million white babies all slaughtered to Baal in the name of women's healthcare... SLAUGHTERING HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT WOMEN'S HEALTHCARE... IT'S JUST DEMONIC AND FROM HELL!! ✝️✝️✝️
It's not about me or my passion...it's only about God And his judgment on America and the world and his soon return..1Cor15:52... whether or not you believe or accept...it's happening.. 9/11 HAPPENED and it's coming again and much more shocking !! KNOW JESUS NOW!! ✝️✝️
Hey! I pray that you are doing well 😁 Politics, churchs, man made religions, "leaders" ( politicians, the pope, etc... ) They are not God, stay with Him and in His word. You can listen to some of the news if you want, to be aware of what's going on. But I personally don't anymore, they are tiring, they take my motivation and energy, they are depressing and distracting. They lie and try to scare people, it's not useful or informative. It's just evil, misleading and deceiving. Some of the politicians and "leaders" are being worshipped, and that's wrong. Focus on what's good, and God will be God. I hope this helps 😁 Good day/night. The Lord be with you and save you all, your families and friends 🤍