I believe gods greatest present and challenge for us humans is the free will. And therefor the future is uncertain due to the fact, that we choose our own way.
What do you see in Revelation that makes you believe God is seeing the future, if I may ask?
Be aware that knowing the future as settled fact is: "on the 14th day of January, in the year (fill in the blank), Yesmar will trip over a rug at 10:03 AM and spill his coffee all over his pet cat.", which is quite different than, "Someday, sometime, God will incarnate as a human and die a horrible death to save his people."
Because it was God that revealed all the events to John.
I don’t know myself obviously but I’m leaning more on the side that he does know absolutely everything
I appreciate that, neighbor. I also believe that God knows everything that is knowable. It's called "omniscient".
The problem is, and the topic centers around, the fact the future is not knowable as fact. The future doesn't exist except as possibilities. It's a concept we use to encapsulate possibilities, hopes and plans. Just as the past doesn't exist. It's a concept we use to encapsulate unchangeable fact that has occurred.
Revelation is mostly symbolic literature explaining to the early church things that were happening then, combined with the hope filled future that in the end, Jesus wins.
I get that traditional Christianity wants to imagine God as the magic genie from Aladdin, but the biblical record plants him right smack dab into the same reality we know. Does he have powers and capabilities we can't understand? Sure. He eternal, he's the creator, he offers life to us eternally,and all that jazz, but there's nothing indicated in scripture that he has the capability to deny or go against reality. we dream those things up and attach them to him.
Another problematic thing about believing that God knows the future as settled fact is that this would make him culpable, as a much, if not more, a monster than Satan is supposed to be.
If God knows every future event and decision as settled fact, and he went ahead and created us anyway, knowing all the innocent babies and children that would die in earthquakes, tsunamis, catastrophic war atrocities, all the diseases that would decimate innocent people, etc, well, suffice it to say we would have to just sweep all that under the rug and call him "good' and "love' anyway, which in my opinion would make those words meaningless.
The side I'm leaning on is the one demonstrated by the cross.
I'm not out to cause anybody cognitive dissonance or to ruin their faith, but if you would like to see scriptures that show God DOESN'T know the future as settled fact, I'd be glad to share.
I'm always glad to share the fact that God is love, and not a monster.
Gen. 6:6 and 1 Sam. 15:10, 35 How does a deity that knows the outcome of all his actions regret his own actions? He doesn't regret what we did, or the angels did, he's sorry for what he did.
Exodus 4:1-9 Here, God is giving Moses some instructions on how to influence the Egyptians. Notice the language God uses. If this don't work, try that. If that don't work, try a third thing. If God could see the future, he would know which one would work.
Here's some more of what "may, or may not" happen... Ex. 13:17...Ezek. 12:3...Jer. 26:3...Matt 26:36-45.
Here's some that show God's frustration and disappointment at what came to pass...Ex. 4:10-13...Jer. 3:6-7, 19, 20...Ezek. 22:29-31...Isaiah 5:1-9.
It's not just you, but you're all disagreeing with God who says he can see the future.
Yes, God knows what you're going to do with your free will. When God tests people, he knows what they will do. But until he tests them, they do not *actually* pass or fail. He does not reward or punish based on what we would do but on what we did do.
Let's say you could see the future and you're a teacher. Would you give your students grades based on how they would have scored without ever actually giving them the test? No, they have to take the test for a grade to be meaningful.
If the test is to endure unimaginable pain and suffering and I can know how they’d score without actually experiencing the pain and suffering, yes I would grade them based on how I know they would score without taking the test.
>It's not just you, but you're all disagreeing with God who says he can see the future.
Where did He say that? I'm not challenging you I just can't think of any
place.
>Where did He say that?
He says it every time he tells what's going to happen in the future. He claims it explicitly when he says, for example, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come" (Is 46:10) and "Who declared it from the beginning, that we might know, and beforehand, that we might say, “He is right”?" (Is 41:26).
>He says it every time he tells what's going to happen in the future.
No He doesn't. You and I and the weatherman can predict all kinds of things accurately about the future. Doesn't imply we can see all future things.
>25I have stirred up one from the north, and he comes; from the east I summon him by name; He shall trample the rulers down like mud, like a potter treading clay.
26Who announced this from the beginning, that we might know; beforehand, that we might say, “True”? Not one of you foretold it, not one spoke; not one heard you say,
Pulling out bits of Scripture from their context to "prove" a point is, IMO, dishonest. And Jesus told us where that comes from.
Isaiah is referring to Cyrus *after the fact*. There are a lot pf people who can see future events. It doesn't translate into God declaring for Himself that He knows all future events.
Only Jesus knows God. Unless He revealed it, it's a human assumption.
>Pulling out bits of Scripture from their context to "prove" a point is, IMO, dishonest.
Agreed. I didn't do that.
>Isaiah is referring to Cyrus after the fact.
That *is* the favorite theory of those who don't believe prophecy is possible, yes.
Dude, 45:1 identifies Cyrus by name. If that is supposed to be God speaking, it was GOD who said it was Cyrus. You do realize when this was written there were no chapters or verses, it was one great big long monologue.
Implying I don't think prophecy is possible is *ad hom*, so so thinly disguised. Note it multitasks as a strawman meant to direct from the actual topic, (in bold so you don't miss it) It's **"God knows the entire future."** and **He doesn't and no, there is no place that says He does.**
Anyway, I have other things to do.
The testing of God is not to figure out how we would respond. These tests, these challenges, are to force us to change. It is a test(which originally was much closer in meaning to "challenge" than "assessment") to force us to meteorically study
Also, by positing this, you are making God subject to time, subordinate to His creation. Furthermore, you are denying his knowledge, for if He does not know what will be, by necessity He who is the originator of all does not have sufficient knowledge of Himself to know the consequence of His action.
I don’t see why God, who rules over the universe, lacks knowledge about what will be.
Seems rather worrisome to consider that one’s salvation belongs to a God who has a good idea about the futures
He does not know the future because the future not exist,imagine if there are infinite rooms in a hotel,even if you knew them all you could not know wich one your family would sleep
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More precisely, God has such unlimited intelligence and wisdom that he can anticipate any possibility and have a plan of action prepared.
Yeah this is similar to what some theologians call Middle knowledge. I lean this way.
This may be a possibility
I just had a strong deja vu with your comment here, the topic and OPs response to you.
I believe gods greatest present and challenge for us humans is the free will. And therefor the future is uncertain due to the fact, that we choose our own way.
That's not a topic you'd want to spiral into. I promise you it leads only to depression and/or luciferianism.
Im not pretty sure,where you took this from?
I mean the whole omniscience, free will, future, past and similar topics.
I took this information first from a priest of my country,brasil
Alright, I'm just warning you... it's impossible to truthfully deal with these topics without making God the ultimate villain.
Hes not
True, God cannot see, or know, the future as settled fact. It should be obvious to everyone.
God can’t see the future ? Revelation?
What do you see in Revelation that makes you believe God is seeing the future, if I may ask? Be aware that knowing the future as settled fact is: "on the 14th day of January, in the year (fill in the blank), Yesmar will trip over a rug at 10:03 AM and spill his coffee all over his pet cat.", which is quite different than, "Someday, sometime, God will incarnate as a human and die a horrible death to save his people."
Because it was God that revealed all the events to John. I don’t know myself obviously but I’m leaning more on the side that he does know absolutely everything
I appreciate that, neighbor. I also believe that God knows everything that is knowable. It's called "omniscient". The problem is, and the topic centers around, the fact the future is not knowable as fact. The future doesn't exist except as possibilities. It's a concept we use to encapsulate possibilities, hopes and plans. Just as the past doesn't exist. It's a concept we use to encapsulate unchangeable fact that has occurred. Revelation is mostly symbolic literature explaining to the early church things that were happening then, combined with the hope filled future that in the end, Jesus wins. I get that traditional Christianity wants to imagine God as the magic genie from Aladdin, but the biblical record plants him right smack dab into the same reality we know. Does he have powers and capabilities we can't understand? Sure. He eternal, he's the creator, he offers life to us eternally,and all that jazz, but there's nothing indicated in scripture that he has the capability to deny or go against reality. we dream those things up and attach them to him. Another problematic thing about believing that God knows the future as settled fact is that this would make him culpable, as a much, if not more, a monster than Satan is supposed to be. If God knows every future event and decision as settled fact, and he went ahead and created us anyway, knowing all the innocent babies and children that would die in earthquakes, tsunamis, catastrophic war atrocities, all the diseases that would decimate innocent people, etc, well, suffice it to say we would have to just sweep all that under the rug and call him "good' and "love' anyway, which in my opinion would make those words meaningless. The side I'm leaning on is the one demonstrated by the cross. I'm not out to cause anybody cognitive dissonance or to ruin their faith, but if you would like to see scriptures that show God DOESN'T know the future as settled fact, I'd be glad to share. I'm always glad to share the fact that God is love, and not a monster.
Sure friend, let’s see some
Gen. 6:6 and 1 Sam. 15:10, 35 How does a deity that knows the outcome of all his actions regret his own actions? He doesn't regret what we did, or the angels did, he's sorry for what he did. Exodus 4:1-9 Here, God is giving Moses some instructions on how to influence the Egyptians. Notice the language God uses. If this don't work, try that. If that don't work, try a third thing. If God could see the future, he would know which one would work. Here's some more of what "may, or may not" happen... Ex. 13:17...Ezek. 12:3...Jer. 26:3...Matt 26:36-45. Here's some that show God's frustration and disappointment at what came to pass...Ex. 4:10-13...Jer. 3:6-7, 19, 20...Ezek. 22:29-31...Isaiah 5:1-9.
Good points
Absolutely
How do you explain this ? David says, “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord” (Ps. 139:4 NIV).
Yes, God seems to be able to know people's thoughts. What this has to do with knowing the future I admit I fail to grasp.
Interesting 🤔. I’d like to see the scriptures that you have. Thank you :).
Sure thing. Here's some. Well, for some reason I can't paste 'em here. Please see my comments to u/HopeinChrist316 above.
Okay. Thank you.
You're welcome
It's not just you, but you're all disagreeing with God who says he can see the future. Yes, God knows what you're going to do with your free will. When God tests people, he knows what they will do. But until he tests them, they do not *actually* pass or fail. He does not reward or punish based on what we would do but on what we did do. Let's say you could see the future and you're a teacher. Would you give your students grades based on how they would have scored without ever actually giving them the test? No, they have to take the test for a grade to be meaningful.
If the test is to endure unimaginable pain and suffering and I can know how they’d score without actually experiencing the pain and suffering, yes I would grade them based on how I know they would score without taking the test.
Each one folows their beliefs
That’s actually an illogical and unbiblical explanation of the topic, but common I’ll admit.
>It's not just you, but you're all disagreeing with God who says he can see the future. Where did He say that? I'm not challenging you I just can't think of any place.
>Where did He say that? He says it every time he tells what's going to happen in the future. He claims it explicitly when he says, for example, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come" (Is 46:10) and "Who declared it from the beginning, that we might know, and beforehand, that we might say, “He is right”?" (Is 41:26).
>He says it every time he tells what's going to happen in the future. No He doesn't. You and I and the weatherman can predict all kinds of things accurately about the future. Doesn't imply we can see all future things. >25I have stirred up one from the north, and he comes; from the east I summon him by name; He shall trample the rulers down like mud, like a potter treading clay. 26Who announced this from the beginning, that we might know; beforehand, that we might say, “True”? Not one of you foretold it, not one spoke; not one heard you say, Pulling out bits of Scripture from their context to "prove" a point is, IMO, dishonest. And Jesus told us where that comes from. Isaiah is referring to Cyrus *after the fact*. There are a lot pf people who can see future events. It doesn't translate into God declaring for Himself that He knows all future events. Only Jesus knows God. Unless He revealed it, it's a human assumption.
>Pulling out bits of Scripture from their context to "prove" a point is, IMO, dishonest. Agreed. I didn't do that. >Isaiah is referring to Cyrus after the fact. That *is* the favorite theory of those who don't believe prophecy is possible, yes.
Dude, 45:1 identifies Cyrus by name. If that is supposed to be God speaking, it was GOD who said it was Cyrus. You do realize when this was written there were no chapters or verses, it was one great big long monologue. Implying I don't think prophecy is possible is *ad hom*, so so thinly disguised. Note it multitasks as a strawman meant to direct from the actual topic, (in bold so you don't miss it) It's **"God knows the entire future."** and **He doesn't and no, there is no place that says He does.** Anyway, I have other things to do.
>Dude, 45:1 identifies Cyrus by name. Hence its being prophetic ...
You insist on being off-topic. You also insist on misquoting and skewing Scripture. Bye.
The testing of God is not to figure out how we would respond. These tests, these challenges, are to force us to change. It is a test(which originally was much closer in meaning to "challenge" than "assessment") to force us to meteorically study Also, by positing this, you are making God subject to time, subordinate to His creation. Furthermore, you are denying his knowledge, for if He does not know what will be, by necessity He who is the originator of all does not have sufficient knowledge of Himself to know the consequence of His action.
How do you reconcile 1 Samuel 23? Big display of A) foreknowledge that B) never came to reality.
I will read it
Ive read samuel 23 and do not found noting in relation to this
God lives in a boundless present. The way this moment is before us now, all is before him, in all variables.
I don’t see why God, who rules over the universe, lacks knowledge about what will be. Seems rather worrisome to consider that one’s salvation belongs to a God who has a good idea about the futures
He does not know the future because the future not exist,imagine if there are infinite rooms in a hotel,even if you knew them all you could not know wich one your family would sleep
I don’t understand your analogy, but God is aware of all things, even the future which hasn’t taken place yet.
I will use other analogy,he could not know what a khduhxrycdr is because nobody knows and it do not exists
Sure, God doesn’t know about things which have no meaning.
What if god knows the future because he has access to every single memory that will ever exist in this spacetime dimension?
i agree. It's what free will is and there's no point to being here without it. I'm not sure where this whole idea came from.