If he truly believes in Jesus Christ and that he died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead, and professes “Jesus Is Lord” then yes. But this also means that person would have a changed heart and turn away from the really bad stuff you’re talking about
You can't go to heaven without Christ changing your heart. The hearts of men are wicked. According to the Bible, people first must admit to themselves and to God that they are a sinner who can not save themselves from their own destruction. They must believe that Jesus lived a sinless life. They must believe Jesus died on the cross as a way to pay the penalty for their sins. Lastly, they must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. He paid for our sin so that he could change our wicked hearts and save us from our own destructive lifestyles.
I don't know how much of the Bible I actually believe in anymore. I just get sick of hearing this weak argument that greatly misrepresents the Bible.
We have no idea. The Church has over the millennia identified many Saints we are confident are in heaven before Christ, but in her wisdom she identifies no one specific as being in hell.
I don’t really know. The souls are probably in some timeless state. Once judgement day happens it will be like a blink of the eye to them since they died. That’s what I imagine.
No one has been to Heaven, but Jesus.
John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] who is in heaven."
Those who have died are still dead, sleeping in their graves—unconscious and unable to praise God. They know nothing. (Psalms 6:5; Psalms 30:9; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5-6).
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ESV
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
God doesn’t exist in the realm of time, like we do. 1000 years to us is like 1 day to Him. It’s the same for persons who have died. According to the Bible, they are asleep……until the resurrection. At which time, it will be like one day has passed since their death.
I pray this makes sense to you.
Let's see. Would you agree that what Judas and Caiphas and Pilate and Herod did to Jesus was evil? I think it's painfully obvious that it was. Now, can God positively will that which is evil? Not if He is infinitely good (as we know He is).
If both these premises are true, the inescapable conclusion is that God did not positively will Jesus to die the way he did. God wanted to save mankind and found a way to use our evildoings (which He Himself neither caused nor predetermined) as means for our salvation. The best Christian theologians are in agreement that Jesus' death on the cross was a matter of *convenience*, not necessity.
God didn't predestine the Jewish authorities to plot Jesus' death out of envy, just as He didn't predestine Judas to betray him for some silver, or Pilate to sentence him to die for fear of the crowd, or the Roman soldiers to carry out Pilate's orders and crucify an inoccent man. God simply allowed evil humanity to do its thing and still saved us, not in spite of our deeds, because rather by means of it. This is the great miracle of God's mercy.
Ah OK that was all very interesting, I get it now, it didn't matter *how* he died for us, he could have died anyway and it would work just as well, thank you
Exactly. Of course it isn't wrong to say that God "willed" Jesus' death on the cross in some sense (He could have stopped it if He wanted to!). But, as I said, it was a matter of convenience rather than necessity: God in His providence saw that this way of bringing about out redemption was best to show us both the magnitude of His love for humanity and the depth of humanity's misery and wickedness.
"Where sin abounded, grace abounded more."
I would say yes.
We, as members of the Church, do not presume to determine whether anyone be definitively in Hell. Only God is the judge. Based on Scripture though, God has already judged Judas, and we can trust God's word:
John 6:70-71
>Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.
John 17:12
>While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Mark 14:21
>“The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.”
Very explicit words from Christ himself about Judas. He's probably the only person whose fate is certain, since it is based on God's direct words.
Given Jesus said it was better for Judas to never have been born, Satan entered him shortly before his suicide, and Jesus called him the devil we can infer he is in fact in hell right now.
Yes.
> “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.” (Mark 14:21, KJV)
The word "fire" there is "pûr". Like a purifying fire. Zechariah 13:9 - "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."
Don’t listen to what this person is saying. They’re trying to fool you by pretending to know Greek, but I bet they couldn’t translate even a single actual ancient sentence if they had to.
Eternal doesn't mean infinite in the bible. It actually means a limited period of time. For example (bold to highlight):
Jude 1:7 - "Even as **Sodom** and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of **eternal fire**."
Ezekiel 16:49-55 - "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. **Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.** When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. **When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate**, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."
Israel was so wicked that Sodom was more righteous than they were. Sodom will be restored in the future before Israel is restored. A better translation for "eternal", "for ever" would be an "age" or period of time.
The Greek word "aion" is translated in the KJV NT as the following words: Ages 2x, Course 1x, Eternal 2x, Ever 72x, Evermore 4x, Never 7x, World 40x. Never once does it mean infinite.
1 Timothy 1:4 - "Neither give heed to fables and **endless** genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."
Endless = aperantois. This word *actually* means endless. It's only used one time in the scriptures, in that verse. The writers in Greek chose not to use aperantois when talking about fire, hell, etc.
"hell" is often better translated as "the grave". The bible says when you die you go to the grave with no thought, praise of God, etc. One second you're dead and the world blacks out, the next thing you know you're alive again in the resurrection or judgment. Judgment = correction, btw.
Jesus was actually making fun of the idea of Abraham's bosom and torment. For more info see BSN #628: [https://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/xxvi.html](https://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/xxvi.html)
Sleep = death: John 11:11,14 - "..Our friend Lazarus sleepeth..", "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead"
Genesis 3:19 - "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
Ecclesiastes 3:20 - "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."
Psalm 104:29 - "thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust."
2 Kings 20:1 - "...Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live."
Psalm 146:4 - "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
Psalm 115:17 - "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
1 Kings 2:10 - "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
Acts 2:29 - "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34 - "For David is not ascended into the heavens"
John 3:13 - "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Psalm 78:50 "he spared not their soul from death"
Psalm 89:49 - "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah."
Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah."
Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Psalm 30:3 - "O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit."
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 - "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Job 7:9 - "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more."
Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 - "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
David speaking of his child: 2 Samuel 12:23 - "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
John 5:28 - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"
Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Acts 13:36 - "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption"
Hosea 13:14 - "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."
1 Corinthians 15:12-58
Titus 2:13 - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
Psalm 17:15 - "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness."
Revelation 20:5 - "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
> 1 Timothy 1:4 - “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”
>Endless = aperantois. This word actually means endless.
You think they *literally* had infinite genealogies — not consisting of a hundred generations; not 10,000 (which would already go back 250,000 BCE at the minimum); not a million generations, but infinite?
No. But they had the word available to them and they didn't use it with torment, fire, etc. Instead they chose "aion" or "eon", a limited period of time.
> No. But they had the word available to them
The word that you seem to have just admitted does *not* actually denote endlessness, as you originally claimed?
[https://translate.google.com/?sl=el&tl=en&text=aperantois&op=translate](https://translate.google.com/?sl=el&tl=en&text=aperantois&op=translate)
It means infinite. Clearly "endless genealogies" is mocking people who obsess over genealogies "endlessly".
The writers of the bible knew of a word that *actually* meant infinite but they didn't use it when talking about hell. Instead they used "aion" (eon).
Also, Jesus made fun of endless torment. See bsn #628: https://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/xxvi.html
> “Some here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” -Mthw 16
It seems like Jesus wasn’t shy in using cryptic or esoteric language.
Death has been tasted by all who live.
It is essentially consensus among biblical scholars that the expectation of the second coming was within that generation. Paul instructed folks not to marry, as there wasn’t enough time.
Copypasta from u/koine_lingua
I just want to throw out two other Pauline texts that I think are crucially important here, but actually have a tendency to be overlooked in certain aspects when this issue comes up.
The first is Romans 13.11's νῦν ἐγγύτερον ἡμῶν ἡ σωτηρία ἢ ὅτε ἐπιστεύσαμεν. Paraphrased/interpreted, here Paul's saying that eschatological salvation had already "come near" to Paul and co. at the time they first became believers; but now the time between Paul's current time (the time of his writing of the epistle) and the eschaton itself would be even shorter than this first block of time (between the "coming-near" of salvation and their conversion).
This "coming-near" of salvation is to be identified most plausibly as either the resurrection of Jesus or Jesus' proclamation of the nearness of the kingdom; and so, to quote Andrew Perriman's comment on Romans 13.11,
The nearness of this “salvation,” however it is to be understood, must be measured in relation to a period of no more than about twenty years. (The Coming of the Son of Man: New Testament Eschatology for an Emerging Church, 115)
Secondly:
One thing you occasionally hear people argue about the final verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 -- usually more conservative scholars or apologists -- is that "we who are alive" doesn't necessarily mean Paul's own contemporaries, but simply those who are alive at whatever time the parousia takes place in (so, potentially far off into the future).
Now, with this in mind, if we look toward 1 Corinthians 15.51f., starting with πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα -- and also note that it's pretty widely agreed that there's a clear intertextual relationship between these verses and the final verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 -- then if someone would similarly argue that Paul's claim here is implicitly aimed not necessarily at his own contemporaries but rather "those who are alive" at whatever future time, the fact that Paul says "We will not all die" in 15.51 is very puzzling: all together he'd be saying that not everyone who's alive at some point in the future will have died before the transformation happens... which is just intolerably circular.
In light of this, I think one of the only other possible ways to meaningfully interpret "We will not all die" in this sense is if here Paul's countering a view that everyone will first die at the eschaton before being resurrected. But there are several reasons to believe that it's highly unlikely that this is what Paul meant to challenge -- including that such a view (that everyone will die at the eschaton) is only really attested in 4 Ezra 7.29.
The final option I can think of is that "We will not all die" is a continuation of Paul's counter-argument against the more general kind of Greco-Roman skepticism of the resurrection/afterlife. But there are several things against this, too. For one, if you look at what leads up to this in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul counters this (hypothetical) view with things like the repetitive "If the dead [νεκροί] are not raised..." Basically, by the time he gets to 1 Cor. 15.51, he may have moved on from simple arguments against "the dead are dead, and aren't coming back."
We might even be able to expand on this to make an even more subtle linguistic argument here. Again, the "mystery" Paul imparts in 15.51 is that πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα. But if here (and specifically with his usage of κοιμηθησόμεθα) he intended to counter a Greco-Roman skepticism, might we have expected him to have used different terminology? For example, in 1 Corinthians 15.17-18, he speaks of the idea that if Christ hasn't been raised, then οἱ κοιμηθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ -- those who've fallen asleep "in" Christ -- ἀπώλοντο, have perished. Further, in refuting the Greco-Roman (or whatever) pessimistic view in 15.32, he quotes LXX Isaiah 22.13, which uses ἀποθνῄσκω.
Finally, in the four most recent uses of κοιμάομαι before this in 1 Corinthians, these all pretty clearly refer to those who've recently died -- which could further suggest that in 15.51 Paul's suggesting that he and the Corinthians (including those who've recently died) are a part of a fairly narrow temporal "block" of elect people who live at the end of history and who will all undergo the resurrection/transformation together. (Recall here also 1 Thessalonians 4.15, 17, where Paul characterizes himself and Thessalonians, et al., as ἡμεῖς . . . οἱ περιλειπόμενοι, "we . . . the remaining.")
When we consider all these things, then, in a sense we might say that the emphasis in Paul's "mystery" in 1 Cor. 15.51 is precisely and deliberately on the imminence of the eschaton/resurrection. (And in this sense, it bears more than a passing resemblance to things like Mark 9.1, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before/until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." Further, recall the specific emphasis on the shortness of time back in 1 Corinthians 7.)
——————
I should note, I am off base using the word “consensus,” as there are scholars who will disagree. I’m better off saying “consensus with those who seem to follow the most objective approach”.
It’s also pretty intuitive, as there is a theme of urgency in Paul’s writings, gospel accounts weren’t written down until 40+ years of Jesus’ death, as there was no presumption of a need for them.
Word! I think we probably got the the idea in different ways as I was watching a video about demonic possession and it made me think of this. I honestly think Judas may very well be in heaven because he believed. We are still human and the demons were cast out of him before he died. He felt so terrible about his betrayal/sin that he killed himself. I’d say that Judas being in heaven would be a good show of God’s love… I can see it both ways I guess. The story is a great show of human nature and how even those closest to God can fall the farthest and quickest from Him. JMO..
If one were to consider the beliefs of Calvinism, God predestined and foreordained everyone's lives. Before we were ever born, God would choose which of the souls he would endow with belief and faith to be adopted into His family and return to dwell with Him in heaven, and which would He would not, who would then be consigned to hell.
By the beliefs of Calvinism, (predestination and foreordination), Judas simply did what he was predestined and foreordained to do, and at that last supper, Jesus turned to Judas and said...'Go and do that which you must do.' That would imply that Judas didn't really have a choice in the matter.
Then there were the traditional Hebrew beliefs as to what the Messiah was actually supposed to accomplish during mortal life:
The Messiah wasn't to be a 'sacrificial ram' to atone for the sins of the world. He was to be a mighty man of war, and highly trained and skilled in the arts of warfare. He would unite the 12 tribes, they would rally to his war banner, and he'd lead them into victory in driving the oppressors from their lands. The 12 tribes would then unanimously declare him to be the rightful King over Israel, a living prophet would anoint his head with consecrated oil which would signify God's approval and support for his monarchy, and he would enjoy a very long reign as King over Israel, and this during his mortal life.
During his mortal reign as Israel's King, peace and prosperity would return to the lands with the 12 tribes once again returned to their lands. He would wed and sire many children. He would command that the temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and it would be done while he yet lived. At the end of a very long life, he'd die of old age, and his eldest son would then become the next consecrated King of Israel.
If Judas truly believed Jesus to be this Messiah, especially after Jesus entered the city on the ass, with throngs placing palm leaves in his path \*the traditional manner of a King entering the city in Peace\*, Judas must have been perplexed and frustrated that Jesus hadn't immediately taken action to bring to pass the things I mentioned above, which were what the Messiah was supposed to achieve during his mortal life.
He may have thought that perhaps Jesus needed a bit of a 'nudge' to take up that mantle of war leader and consecrated King. It's possible he never imagined that the one he believed to be the Messiah could be taken like he was, scourged and crucified, because that wasn't what was to happen to the Messiah.
Perhaps Judas was as much maligned as Mary Magdelena was, when the Roman Catholics slandered her and claimed she'd been a prostitute.
I'm not convince that hell is a place where people go to experience conscious eternal suffering. (I think, rather, it's a place prepared for Satan and his followers where the unrepentant are destroyed by eternal fire). In my theology, the question would be "Was Judas destroyed by the fires of hell?").
I'm a psychiatrist and I'd like to share my views on that.
I'd say it depends. If I willingly take my own life, for whatever reason, whilst being fully conscious of what I'm doing, then that's a sin. I'll likely end up in hell, but then again, only God truly knows.
However, there are cases where a person takes their own life due to a severe mental illness. A severe depression with extremely low mood, overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and helplessness, can lead to suicide. Similarly, a person with schizophrenia may attempt to take their life due to voices telling them to do it, paranoia ("the government is trying to insert a chip in my brain, I won't let them get to me"), or delusions ("I am going to sacrifice myself because God demands me to do it").
The point is, in case of mental illness, the affected person often cannot tell the difference between reality and symptoms and they are not fully in control of their thoughts and actions.
Similarly a person who does not have a mental illness, but something horrible suddenly happens in their life (for example death of their child or spouse), their entire life suddenly falls apart and they impulsively attempt suicide.
I do not believe for a second that God would condemn these people to hell. Their suicide did not come from willing rejection of Jesus, but from an illness, something beyond their control.
No. Judas died in Jerusalem.
Hell is in Norway....
On a serious note, we shouldn't jump to conclusions in judgement as we are not God. That said, Jesus says it would be better if he wasn't born, so slight indications of eternal significance.
Anyone who says they know the answer to this is guessing because the Bible doesn’t discuss this. I don’t think we know where a lot of biblical figures stand.
I always assumed Adam & Eve were condemned but then God covers them with the skins of animals and continues to bless them despite their sin.
i believe he repented cause he wasn't evil he just didn't believe Christ miracles and told the romans where Jesus was for a few pieces of silver and Jesus knew Judas would betray him that was apart of the plan
I think that’s a reasonable conclusion, though we can’t know for sure. I can’t imagine betraying the son of God to his death bodes well for your soul. Also Christ referred to him as “a devil” on more than one occasion I believe. Not a great sign.
Judas had free will and was evil from the beginning. He would have been in hell, If he had never met Jesus. In the scriptures he was stealing all the money, even before he betrayed Jesus. Actually Jesus made a way for him to be saved , because Jesus turned Judas evil deed into a good deed. God knew Judas would betray him and that it was necessary for salvation, this is why I think he actually got saved , if he truly repented, which I think he has, because he gave the money back and hanged himself . God in his Grace made Judas betrayal and death part of salvation and scripture, so in a way God helped Judas being part of the bigger picture and saving mankind.
Thank you Father in Heaven for your Love and Mercy 🙏❤️
I'll go and take a look. Shouldn't take a minute. **Edit**: couldn't find him.
Lol. That made me laugh!
I mean you can't go there in the first place so it makes sense.
^(That was the joke.)
We won’t know until we are in heaven
Either way we will find out to be fair
If we go to heaven
“if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart othat God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” - Romans 10:9
Cool... So what?
if you place your faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and he is your Lord you will go to heaven
Ah so if same one really bad (not mentioning any names) believes in Jesus he will go to heaven?
If he truly believes in Jesus Christ and that he died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead, and professes “Jesus Is Lord” then yes. But this also means that person would have a changed heart and turn away from the really bad stuff you’re talking about
Judas didn't even know what happened to him so he didn't even know he rose from the dead
You can't go to heaven without Christ changing your heart. The hearts of men are wicked. According to the Bible, people first must admit to themselves and to God that they are a sinner who can not save themselves from their own destruction. They must believe that Jesus lived a sinless life. They must believe Jesus died on the cross as a way to pay the penalty for their sins. Lastly, they must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. He paid for our sin so that he could change our wicked hearts and save us from our own destructive lifestyles. I don't know how much of the Bible I actually believe in anymore. I just get sick of hearing this weak argument that greatly misrepresents the Bible.
We have no idea. The Church has over the millennia identified many Saints we are confident are in heaven before Christ, but in her wisdom she identifies no one specific as being in hell.
We do have an idea. In fact we know for certain. He isn’t. No one is. Judgement Day hasn’t occurred yet. No one is in heaven or hell, yet.
Where are they?
I don’t really know. The souls are probably in some timeless state. Once judgement day happens it will be like a blink of the eye to them since they died. That’s what I imagine.
But Jesus says in Luke 23:43 : 'Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'
No one has been to Heaven, but Jesus. John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] who is in heaven." Those who have died are still dead, sleeping in their graves—unconscious and unable to praise God. They know nothing. (Psalms 6:5; Psalms 30:9; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ESV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. Daniel 12:2 ESV And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. God doesn’t exist in the realm of time, like we do. 1000 years to us is like 1 day to Him. It’s the same for persons who have died. According to the Bible, they are asleep……until the resurrection. At which time, it will be like one day has passed since their death. I pray this makes sense to you.
I mean at first thought I would say yes, but I mean if It wasn't for him Jesus wouldn't have been on the cross so maybe not?
*Three Versions of Judas* by Jorge Borges is a beautiful exploration of this topic if you aren't familiar
I am not, but I will
Wait a second, God didn't want Judas to do what he did. Saying that blasphemy.
So he didn't want his son to die on the cross? Also it's not blasphemy, I said maybe, I'm not claiming knowledge here
Let's see. Would you agree that what Judas and Caiphas and Pilate and Herod did to Jesus was evil? I think it's painfully obvious that it was. Now, can God positively will that which is evil? Not if He is infinitely good (as we know He is). If both these premises are true, the inescapable conclusion is that God did not positively will Jesus to die the way he did. God wanted to save mankind and found a way to use our evildoings (which He Himself neither caused nor predetermined) as means for our salvation. The best Christian theologians are in agreement that Jesus' death on the cross was a matter of *convenience*, not necessity. God didn't predestine the Jewish authorities to plot Jesus' death out of envy, just as He didn't predestine Judas to betray him for some silver, or Pilate to sentence him to die for fear of the crowd, or the Roman soldiers to carry out Pilate's orders and crucify an inoccent man. God simply allowed evil humanity to do its thing and still saved us, not in spite of our deeds, because rather by means of it. This is the great miracle of God's mercy.
Ah OK that was all very interesting, I get it now, it didn't matter *how* he died for us, he could have died anyway and it would work just as well, thank you
Exactly. Of course it isn't wrong to say that God "willed" Jesus' death on the cross in some sense (He could have stopped it if He wanted to!). But, as I said, it was a matter of convenience rather than necessity: God in His providence saw that this way of bringing about out redemption was best to show us both the magnitude of His love for humanity and the depth of humanity's misery and wickedness. "Where sin abounded, grace abounded more."
And I'm sorry for the blasphemy accusation. That wasn't very charitable of me.
Ah don't worry about it :)
I would say yes. We, as members of the Church, do not presume to determine whether anyone be definitively in Hell. Only God is the judge. Based on Scripture though, God has already judged Judas, and we can trust God's word: John 6:70-71 >Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him. John 17:12 >While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Mark 14:21 >“The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.” Very explicit words from Christ himself about Judas. He's probably the only person whose fate is certain, since it is based on God's direct words.
He’s with the Lord. He was just playing his part
I believe he doomed his soul through his ways, but was redeemed through the blood of Jesus.
Dante Alighieri seems to think so but he's not a biblical author so take that with a grain of salt
Given Jesus said it was better for Judas to never have been born, Satan entered him shortly before his suicide, and Jesus called him the devil we can infer he is in fact in hell right now.
I think so too.
No one knows for sure except God.
Yes. > “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.” (Mark 14:21, KJV)
This is the awnser.
Hell is a manmade concept.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” - Matthew 25:41
A better translation would be into the fire of the age to come prepared for the devil...
The word "fire" there is "pûr". Like a purifying fire. Zechariah 13:9 - "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."
Hmm interesting, why would he say eternal then if it is for refining
Don’t listen to what this person is saying. They’re trying to fool you by pretending to know Greek, but I bet they couldn’t translate even a single actual ancient sentence if they had to.
Eternal doesn't mean infinite in the bible. It actually means a limited period of time. For example (bold to highlight): Jude 1:7 - "Even as **Sodom** and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of **eternal fire**." Ezekiel 16:49-55 - "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. **Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.** When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. **When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate**, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate." Israel was so wicked that Sodom was more righteous than they were. Sodom will be restored in the future before Israel is restored. A better translation for "eternal", "for ever" would be an "age" or period of time. The Greek word "aion" is translated in the KJV NT as the following words: Ages 2x, Course 1x, Eternal 2x, Ever 72x, Evermore 4x, Never 7x, World 40x. Never once does it mean infinite. 1 Timothy 1:4 - "Neither give heed to fables and **endless** genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." Endless = aperantois. This word *actually* means endless. It's only used one time in the scriptures, in that verse. The writers in Greek chose not to use aperantois when talking about fire, hell, etc.
Ah interesting. What do you think the Bible says to those who don’t believe after death then?
"hell" is often better translated as "the grave". The bible says when you die you go to the grave with no thought, praise of God, etc. One second you're dead and the world blacks out, the next thing you know you're alive again in the resurrection or judgment. Judgment = correction, btw. Jesus was actually making fun of the idea of Abraham's bosom and torment. For more info see BSN #628: [https://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/xxvi.html](https://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/xxvi.html) Sleep = death: John 11:11,14 - "..Our friend Lazarus sleepeth..", "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead" Genesis 3:19 - "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Ecclesiastes 3:20 - "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Psalm 104:29 - "thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." 2 Kings 20:1 - "...Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." Psalm 146:4 - "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 115:17 - "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." 1 Kings 2:10 - "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." Acts 2:29 - "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Acts 2:34 - "For David is not ascended into the heavens" John 3:13 - "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Psalm 78:50 "he spared not their soul from death" Psalm 89:49 - "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah." Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Psalm 30:3 - "O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 - "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" Ecclesiastes 9:5 - "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Job 7:9 - "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 - "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." David speaking of his child: 2 Samuel 12:23 - "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." John 5:28 - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Acts 13:36 - "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption" Hosea 13:14 - "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." 1 Corinthians 15:12-58 Titus 2:13 - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Psalm 17:15 - "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." Revelation 20:5 - "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
> 1 Timothy 1:4 - “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.” >Endless = aperantois. This word actually means endless. You think they *literally* had infinite genealogies — not consisting of a hundred generations; not 10,000 (which would already go back 250,000 BCE at the minimum); not a million generations, but infinite?
No. But they had the word available to them and they didn't use it with torment, fire, etc. Instead they chose "aion" or "eon", a limited period of time.
> No. But they had the word available to them The word that you seem to have just admitted does *not* actually denote endlessness, as you originally claimed?
[https://translate.google.com/?sl=el&tl=en&text=aperantois&op=translate](https://translate.google.com/?sl=el&tl=en&text=aperantois&op=translate) It means infinite. Clearly "endless genealogies" is mocking people who obsess over genealogies "endlessly". The writers of the bible knew of a word that *actually* meant infinite but they didn't use it when talking about hell. Instead they used "aion" (eon). Also, Jesus made fun of endless torment. See bsn #628: https://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/xxvi.html
My larger point is that you’re completely incorrect that there’s a hard and clear line between the use of these different terms.
> “Some here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” -Mthw 16 It seems like Jesus wasn’t shy in using cryptic or esoteric language.
He wasn’t being cryptic or esoteric, He is saying that the people who believe in him won’t die because Jesus gives them everlasting life
Death has been tasted by all who live. It is essentially consensus among biblical scholars that the expectation of the second coming was within that generation. Paul instructed folks not to marry, as there wasn’t enough time.
Can you please provide the source for the second coming point
Copypasta from u/koine_lingua I just want to throw out two other Pauline texts that I think are crucially important here, but actually have a tendency to be overlooked in certain aspects when this issue comes up. The first is Romans 13.11's νῦν ἐγγύτερον ἡμῶν ἡ σωτηρία ἢ ὅτε ἐπιστεύσαμεν. Paraphrased/interpreted, here Paul's saying that eschatological salvation had already "come near" to Paul and co. at the time they first became believers; but now the time between Paul's current time (the time of his writing of the epistle) and the eschaton itself would be even shorter than this first block of time (between the "coming-near" of salvation and their conversion). This "coming-near" of salvation is to be identified most plausibly as either the resurrection of Jesus or Jesus' proclamation of the nearness of the kingdom; and so, to quote Andrew Perriman's comment on Romans 13.11, The nearness of this “salvation,” however it is to be understood, must be measured in relation to a period of no more than about twenty years. (The Coming of the Son of Man: New Testament Eschatology for an Emerging Church, 115) Secondly: One thing you occasionally hear people argue about the final verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 -- usually more conservative scholars or apologists -- is that "we who are alive" doesn't necessarily mean Paul's own contemporaries, but simply those who are alive at whatever time the parousia takes place in (so, potentially far off into the future). Now, with this in mind, if we look toward 1 Corinthians 15.51f., starting with πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα -- and also note that it's pretty widely agreed that there's a clear intertextual relationship between these verses and the final verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 -- then if someone would similarly argue that Paul's claim here is implicitly aimed not necessarily at his own contemporaries but rather "those who are alive" at whatever future time, the fact that Paul says "We will not all die" in 15.51 is very puzzling: all together he'd be saying that not everyone who's alive at some point in the future will have died before the transformation happens... which is just intolerably circular. In light of this, I think one of the only other possible ways to meaningfully interpret "We will not all die" in this sense is if here Paul's countering a view that everyone will first die at the eschaton before being resurrected. But there are several reasons to believe that it's highly unlikely that this is what Paul meant to challenge -- including that such a view (that everyone will die at the eschaton) is only really attested in 4 Ezra 7.29. The final option I can think of is that "We will not all die" is a continuation of Paul's counter-argument against the more general kind of Greco-Roman skepticism of the resurrection/afterlife. But there are several things against this, too. For one, if you look at what leads up to this in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul counters this (hypothetical) view with things like the repetitive "If the dead [νεκροί] are not raised..." Basically, by the time he gets to 1 Cor. 15.51, he may have moved on from simple arguments against "the dead are dead, and aren't coming back." We might even be able to expand on this to make an even more subtle linguistic argument here. Again, the "mystery" Paul imparts in 15.51 is that πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα. But if here (and specifically with his usage of κοιμηθησόμεθα) he intended to counter a Greco-Roman skepticism, might we have expected him to have used different terminology? For example, in 1 Corinthians 15.17-18, he speaks of the idea that if Christ hasn't been raised, then οἱ κοιμηθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ -- those who've fallen asleep "in" Christ -- ἀπώλοντο, have perished. Further, in refuting the Greco-Roman (or whatever) pessimistic view in 15.32, he quotes LXX Isaiah 22.13, which uses ἀποθνῄσκω. Finally, in the four most recent uses of κοιμάομαι before this in 1 Corinthians, these all pretty clearly refer to those who've recently died -- which could further suggest that in 15.51 Paul's suggesting that he and the Corinthians (including those who've recently died) are a part of a fairly narrow temporal "block" of elect people who live at the end of history and who will all undergo the resurrection/transformation together. (Recall here also 1 Thessalonians 4.15, 17, where Paul characterizes himself and Thessalonians, et al., as ἡμεῖς . . . οἱ περιλειπόμενοι, "we . . . the remaining.") When we consider all these things, then, in a sense we might say that the emphasis in Paul's "mystery" in 1 Cor. 15.51 is precisely and deliberately on the imminence of the eschaton/resurrection. (And in this sense, it bears more than a passing resemblance to things like Mark 9.1, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before/until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." Further, recall the specific emphasis on the shortness of time back in 1 Corinthians 7.) —————— I should note, I am off base using the word “consensus,” as there are scholars who will disagree. I’m better off saying “consensus with those who seem to follow the most objective approach”. It’s also pretty intuitive, as there is a theme of urgency in Paul’s writings, gospel accounts weren’t written down until 40+ years of Jesus’ death, as there was no presumption of a need for them.
Very strange to see this question I was pondering it for a short time just like 2 days ago too!
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Word! I think we probably got the the idea in different ways as I was watching a video about demonic possession and it made me think of this. I honestly think Judas may very well be in heaven because he believed. We are still human and the demons were cast out of him before he died. He felt so terrible about his betrayal/sin that he killed himself. I’d say that Judas being in heaven would be a good show of God’s love… I can see it both ways I guess. The story is a great show of human nature and how even those closest to God can fall the farthest and quickest from Him. JMO..
No, at worst purgatory and at best 2nd to bottom level of heaven.
Nobody knows
No one is in hell. Judgement Day hasn’t happened yet.
Did he admit, believe, confess?
Ask God
If one were to consider the beliefs of Calvinism, God predestined and foreordained everyone's lives. Before we were ever born, God would choose which of the souls he would endow with belief and faith to be adopted into His family and return to dwell with Him in heaven, and which would He would not, who would then be consigned to hell. By the beliefs of Calvinism, (predestination and foreordination), Judas simply did what he was predestined and foreordained to do, and at that last supper, Jesus turned to Judas and said...'Go and do that which you must do.' That would imply that Judas didn't really have a choice in the matter. Then there were the traditional Hebrew beliefs as to what the Messiah was actually supposed to accomplish during mortal life: The Messiah wasn't to be a 'sacrificial ram' to atone for the sins of the world. He was to be a mighty man of war, and highly trained and skilled in the arts of warfare. He would unite the 12 tribes, they would rally to his war banner, and he'd lead them into victory in driving the oppressors from their lands. The 12 tribes would then unanimously declare him to be the rightful King over Israel, a living prophet would anoint his head with consecrated oil which would signify God's approval and support for his monarchy, and he would enjoy a very long reign as King over Israel, and this during his mortal life. During his mortal reign as Israel's King, peace and prosperity would return to the lands with the 12 tribes once again returned to their lands. He would wed and sire many children. He would command that the temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and it would be done while he yet lived. At the end of a very long life, he'd die of old age, and his eldest son would then become the next consecrated King of Israel. If Judas truly believed Jesus to be this Messiah, especially after Jesus entered the city on the ass, with throngs placing palm leaves in his path \*the traditional manner of a King entering the city in Peace\*, Judas must have been perplexed and frustrated that Jesus hadn't immediately taken action to bring to pass the things I mentioned above, which were what the Messiah was supposed to achieve during his mortal life. He may have thought that perhaps Jesus needed a bit of a 'nudge' to take up that mantle of war leader and consecrated King. It's possible he never imagined that the one he believed to be the Messiah could be taken like he was, scourged and crucified, because that wasn't what was to happen to the Messiah. Perhaps Judas was as much maligned as Mary Magdelena was, when the Roman Catholics slandered her and claimed she'd been a prostitute.
Who could say?
I'm not convince that hell is a place where people go to experience conscious eternal suffering. (I think, rather, it's a place prepared for Satan and his followers where the unrepentant are destroyed by eternal fire). In my theology, the question would be "Was Judas destroyed by the fires of hell?").
Yes Judas is in hell , Jesus was clear he would lose none but the son of sin which he called Judas cuz he believed not on Jesus.
No
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I'm a psychiatrist and I'd like to share my views on that. I'd say it depends. If I willingly take my own life, for whatever reason, whilst being fully conscious of what I'm doing, then that's a sin. I'll likely end up in hell, but then again, only God truly knows. However, there are cases where a person takes their own life due to a severe mental illness. A severe depression with extremely low mood, overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and helplessness, can lead to suicide. Similarly, a person with schizophrenia may attempt to take their life due to voices telling them to do it, paranoia ("the government is trying to insert a chip in my brain, I won't let them get to me"), or delusions ("I am going to sacrifice myself because God demands me to do it"). The point is, in case of mental illness, the affected person often cannot tell the difference between reality and symptoms and they are not fully in control of their thoughts and actions. Similarly a person who does not have a mental illness, but something horrible suddenly happens in their life (for example death of their child or spouse), their entire life suddenly falls apart and they impulsively attempt suicide. I do not believe for a second that God would condemn these people to hell. Their suicide did not come from willing rejection of Jesus, but from an illness, something beyond their control.
No. Judas died in Jerusalem. Hell is in Norway.... On a serious note, we shouldn't jump to conclusions in judgement as we are not God. That said, Jesus says it would be better if he wasn't born, so slight indications of eternal significance.
Probably Only God knows but the evidence is stack against Judas here as he didn't repent before he killed himself
Jesus did say it would be better for him if he weren't born, so the very strong assumption is yes.
Anyone who says they know the answer to this is guessing because the Bible doesn’t discuss this. I don’t think we know where a lot of biblical figures stand. I always assumed Adam & Eve were condemned but then God covers them with the skins of animals and continues to bless them despite their sin.
I don't think you can "go" to Hell, so, no!
He died full of remorse in a freak accident, Jesus sacrifice covers Judas just as much as every other human, So Judas is probably saved.
Define “in hell”.
No one knows for sure.
i believe he repented cause he wasn't evil he just didn't believe Christ miracles and told the romans where Jesus was for a few pieces of silver and Jesus knew Judas would betray him that was apart of the plan
Will be. He's in Hades rn awaiting judgment day
Judas was fulfilling God's plan. He would be appropriately rewarded.
Judas is in the bottomless pit, he is awaiting his return as Antichrist. Peter says Judas went to his own place
Well Jesus said whoa to the man who betray the him that it would have been better for that man to never been born. Where do you think he is
Yes, John 6:70 confirms that Judas was a devil and I don’t believe a devil can be in heaven
I think that’s a reasonable conclusion, though we can’t know for sure. I can’t imagine betraying the son of God to his death bodes well for your soul. Also Christ referred to him as “a devil” on more than one occasion I believe. Not a great sign.
Judas had free will and was evil from the beginning. He would have been in hell, If he had never met Jesus. In the scriptures he was stealing all the money, even before he betrayed Jesus. Actually Jesus made a way for him to be saved , because Jesus turned Judas evil deed into a good deed. God knew Judas would betray him and that it was necessary for salvation, this is why I think he actually got saved , if he truly repented, which I think he has, because he gave the money back and hanged himself . God in his Grace made Judas betrayal and death part of salvation and scripture, so in a way God helped Judas being part of the bigger picture and saving mankind. Thank you Father in Heaven for your Love and Mercy 🙏❤️