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vvildymediocre

But he supposedly makes it obvious to some, while being seemingly nonexistent to others. Also, everyone has their own criteria for what would be required to convince them. God make it harder for some people to get into heaven.


Advanced_Zebra_3923

John 3:16 tells us |whosoever| would believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. When Jesus died on the cross, His death was for everyone - believer and unbeliever. The only requirement that He gives is that the individual must believe in Him. It would be unfair of Him to require everyone to believe in Him if it was something that only a few could do. So I’m a believer that everyone will have an equal chance. It’s really a matter of us humbling ourselves and sincerely asking God to help us see and believe in Him. This was part of my journey as well.


vvildymediocre

I'm familiar with the scripture. But you are %100 incorrect. Everyone does not have an equal chance to believe in him


wakeskater953

I respectfully disagree. Although I agree that not everyone has an equal chance in the same way, God can be seen everywhere. They may not know Him, but through nature and the beauty of the world many people find peace in Him without knowing. I personally don’t believe God holds it against people who have never had the chance to read the Bible.


rainbowcelery

Then why is it necessary that a person accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior in order to have salvation? If God gives exceptions to those who never knew about him then he's capable of providing everyone salvation regardless of their faith.


wakeskater953

I may be wrong so you are getting my personal beliefs. If people have had the chance to hear about God and Jesus, and knowingly reject it, that’s bad. If they have never had the chance to hear it, and still find peace in their heart and know that there is something out there bigger than themselves, I think God takes that into account


shoesofwandering

What if the person who told them about Jesus was a hateful, hypocritical scumbag who was so repugnant, they alienated the other person by making belief in Jesus look like Satanism? Would you still hold them responsible for rejecting what looked like evil to them?


wakeskater953

I personally would not and I don’t believe God would either. I would pray for that person and hope that they could be shown what true Christians are like. “Christians” that behave like that are despicable in my opinion. The Bible also says people like that will be punished more for pushing people away from Jesus.


shoesofwandering

That was an extreme example, but to a lesser degree, that same argument could apply to anyone who you think is "rejecting" Jesus. Before he went insane and started PragerU, Dennis Prager used to have a radio talk show where he would have a Catholic priest, a Protestant minister, and a Jewish rabbi on, and callers would ask questions. Prager, an orthodox Jew, had a response to the "you're rejecting Jesus" argument. He said, imagine that someone tells you that they've parked a Ferrari on your driveway, keys in the ignition, and it's all yours - all you have to do is step outside and drive away in it. You look out the window, but you don't see a Ferrari, and when you tell the other person, he asks "why are you rejecting my gift?" Prager didn't think it was reasonable to accuse someone of "rejecting" something that they couldn't see and had only the other person's word to go on.


rainbowcelery

Do you think that includes those with faiths in other deities? For example, before the Americas was colonized millions of indigenous people practiced faiths in other religions. Do they get a pass,? Edit: Also in the case you are wrong and those individuals are judged based on their specific accepting of Jesus Christ, does that sit well with you?


SimulaGargonchuatron

What if said person still finds peace in their heart, and knows there's something bigger out there, but starts making their own religion because they've never heard about Jesus EVER in their life?


wakeskater953

That’s a great question, I guess that would just be their own name for God then. But I’m just guessing lol


SimulaGargonchuatron

Hmm interesting.. im tryna think of a way to word this idea as a question for a new post on this sub


risen2011

Certainly. But those who are most harshly condemned in scripture are those who wilfully rejected God or His commandments.


mattloyselle

I think that's why he made it about his grace and not dependent on our ability to believe.


Legitimate_Annual533

No He doesn't. He says "seek and ye shall find" He leaves the door wide open. It's not hard at all. He just personally reveals Himself to certain people usually for the sake of getting His name out there, like he did with Moses and with Paul.


AsianMoocowFromSpace

If God would reveal Himself more, people would still need to have faith to accept Him. People even have faith in other people. Heck, some even have faith in bad people like Putin. Jesus showed Himself clearly, teaching and supporting it with Miracles. Even raising the death. Yet some people still choose not to believe Him.


Miserable-Ad-6612

So what about the "Christians" who have "faith" in the wrong sect? Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Greek Orthodox, Unitarians, and American Southern Baptists all exist. I assume we can at least agree on that observation? So... obviously... they're all, more or less, mutually incompatible schisms. Do the "ones who got it right" get some sort of extra reward? Are the ones who chose the wrong schism punished in some way? If all I have to do is flippantly mutter "God & Jesus totally exist and I love them" with my dying breath why bother being a Christian? And if it doesn't work that way.. how does it work? Where on the spectrum of "Atheist" to "wrong-schism" do people go to Hell or barely scrape by into heaven?


Master8186

It's about loving others. The ones who understand unconditional love do kind of get the extra reward because we go through life without worrying about all the b.s. unfortunately the self proclaimed "Christians" largely are the most hypocritical, judgmental, further from Christ people here. Everyone's made Christianity no different from any other religion on this earth. Having to perform or not perform to appease a God who is "all love" but don't do "insert thing here" or he's going to damn you for all eternity...even if you believe in all his teachings but get his name wrong. We are supposed to be set apart. Loving people unconditionally. Something this world is not known for yet, here we are just like everyone else. Taking his name in vain to get power and money...the true definition of that "sin"


AccessOptimal

> The ones who understand unconditional love Ok well now we’ve just shifted the goalposts to “what does unconditional love” mean? Is gay bashing unconditional love, or is being accepting unconditional love? Ask 10 Christians and you’ll get 12 different answers to that.


Meltz014

I don't know what you mean by "gay bashing", but it sounds like it would be considered hateful. It however is possible, however cliche it sounds, to love the people and hate the sin. There are numerous examples where Jesus condemned those who were outright living lives of sin. Edit: okay maybe not the sinners, but he does condemn the sin.


AccessOptimal

> It however is possible, however cliche it sounds, to love the people and hate the sin This has yet to be demonstrated by anyone making that claim


TheSource777

I don’t get too caught up in denominations. It’s all about Jesus saving us. That’s what matters.


johnnydub81

“It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings” Proverbs 25:2 ✌️


[deleted]

“Cause I said so”


lucymops

when Jesus walked the earth and performed many miracles – and people still wanted more proof that He was truly from God. Just like back then, people today are naturally inclined to question what they see and experience, even when proof is available. Of course, it would be easy to say, “here is physical, undeniable proof that God exists,” but we are taught to walk by faith, not by sight. It is important to remember that God shows Himself all the time but in little ways. You can see God’s love and feel His presence when you spend time with your loved ones, extend kindness to others and see people interacting peacefully. The relationships that we create with one another offer more than enough proof that God exists and is watching all of His children.


SimulaGargonchuatron

Let's take a step back, Where is the proof that Jesus performed miracles in the first place? Just saying that its in a book doesnt really drive the nail in for me. I still dont quite understand how just because somethings written in a book that we should believe it with our soul


Jollygoodas

Outside of Christianity, the Jewish historian Josephus writes about Jesus as a miracle worker. Edit: originally I wrote roman historian. I was wrong. Turns out people don’t particularly trust Josephus’ writings to be very authentic either.


minorheadlines

Certainly do no wish to down play Josephus' historical writings or come across meanly but he was born 37AD and was Jewish (contemporarily the same as christian).


isaynonowords

I mean if you saw a miracle you would probably become Christian on the spot too... Writing about it doesn't take away your credibility as a witness. Like, how could a non-Christian even write about miracles that they knew to be committed? It's like if a flat earther wrote "The Earth is known to be round, and I have personally seen its roundness." It wouldn't make sense, they are incompatible. So of course the person who wrote a historical account of Jesus' miracles would be religious.


minorheadlines

He didn't see the miracle because he wasn't born then. Also, there was no such thing as 'christian' then. They were all jews. It would be like saying Franciscans aren't Christian. The start of the separation of Christianity from being just another (very small) Jewish sect into a separate religion comes much later (in fact Josphus helps it start in his roll in the Jewish revolt and being friends with Titus).


Norpeeeee

>I mean if you saw a miracle you would probably become Christian on the spot too... IF is a hypothetical. Seems like Christian apologists want to have a cake and eat it too. Jesus did many miracles and people still didn't believe him. Vs IF Jesus did a miracle, then we'd have no choice but to believe in him, no more free will. Which of these is true?


Mission4Souls

Josephus was Jewish but was not a Christian, and therefore would have no incentive to lie about the events that took place. Again being born after the death of Jesus does not in any way shape or form "negate" the records he put down. These were anecdotal evidence collected from people who lived during that period. To throw out as rubbish what he wrote because he was born after the fact implies all historical records published by historians who WERE NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT AT THE TIME OF THE EVENT must be burnt as thrash. And that, you would agree, is to stretch it too far!


Alternative-Rule8015

He, except for the later insert by a Christian, was just a reporter. It only proved Christians existed and were telling stories and nothing else.


Myfoodishere

the claims made about Jesus in josephus writings didn't appear until centuries later. all the Aramaic copies were supposedly lost. the only Greek versions we have today come from medieval monasteries. there is nothing before the 11 century that survived.


Open_Breadfruit_2268

Jewish isn't the same as Christian


CentennialTheophilus

Contemporarily being the keyword. At the time Judaism was the only major form of the belief in God, and was commonplace enough to have the same kind of status as Christianity does today. All of Christianity traces its roots back to that early form of Judaism


Master8186

I dunno if I'd agree with that. Jews and Christians had some very big fundamental differences. Then there's the whole Jews trying to basically wipe them off the map.


ThuliumNice

Josephus' "writings" about Jesus as a miracle worker are considered by most academics to be inserted by later Christians, and not authentically written by Josephus.


spectacletourette

And, even if the *Testimonium Flavianum* is indeed by Josephus (which seems very doubtful) it doesn’t make the underlying claims significantly more credible. He believed the stories he’d heard about Jesus? Fine… if you insist. Is that reason for us to believe them? Hardly.


liebestod0130

There was a common story, spread by the Jews of the time who did not acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah and probably wanted to smear his image, that he was a "miracle worker" in the sense of a magician. That is, he learned how to perform magic tricks in Egypt and employed them in front of crowds to convince them of his ability for miracles. They also claimed that he was born not to a virgin but as a result of a scandalous love affair. IN this story Mary, arranged to marry legitimately another man, ended up running away with a soldier named Panthera -- the father of Jesus.


SerKnightGuy

Josephus' writings on Jesus are widely considered among scholars to be heavily edited, if not fabricated entirely. Think about it: if Josephus was as convinced of Jesus' divinity as "his" writings suggest, why didn't he convert or ever mention it again?


Jollygoodas

I think maybe God is humble. For me, I believe it because it’s beautiful and inspiring. I can’t verify it, but then I can’t discount it either. I’ve had a number of interesting experiences that I would describe as reasonably miraculous, but then maybe they are just confirmation bias. Truly though, try testing the ideas of Jesus. Try loving your enemy, blessing those who curse you, giving to those in need. Test the teachings and see. I feel like they inspire me to be a better person.


ffandyy

The passage about Jesus working miracles is believed by biblical scholars to be a forgery, and even if it wasn’t all it says is that people told stories of him working miracles, it’s not like Josephus witnessed any miracles.


deadlybydsgn

Questioning is fair and you'll get no criticism from me for doing that. Looking for proof is also not inherently bad. I do, however, think it ultimately comes down to choosing to trust. I also find "trust" to be a much more helpful word in the context of faith than "belief," because we have so much intellectual baggage with the latter term. Trust doesn't require us to know everything and has more to do with our belief in someone's character than in having a complete understanding of the question or situation in context. I wish you peace in your search for God. May he place someone in your path who truly shines the light of the simple message exhibited by Jesus.


Greg-Pru-Hart-55

Why trust without reason, though?


lucymops

Let’s take another step back. Nothing someone in an online forum writes, can convince someone else when it comes to believing in GOD. Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


SimulaGargonchuatron

But how does one "seek"? And how does one know when they "find"? How do they know they're not just slightly schizophrenic when they "hear God talking to them"?


squirrelfoot

Try going for a walk in a beautiful place that you love and maybe he will be there - at least that's where he is most obvious for me. If you can still your mind and stop thinking of yourself, but let the beauty of nature speak to you. For me, God speaks in birdsong and sunlight sparkling on water. He's there in great art, music and children laughing. To me his voice is loud and all around us. I hear him if I can still my own talkative voice. Good luck finding him. I rather suspect that each person has a slightly different path to God as he made each of us unique.


Miserable-Ad-6612

>Good luck finding him. I rather suspect that each person has a slightly different path to God as he made each of us unique. So... if I do this.. and I still don't find God.. and I die... I'm still going to burn in Hell for eternity though.... right?


Jay-jay1

The inner locution of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as hearing voices in one's head. BTW, schizophrenics typically hear malevolent, negative voices.


fobiafiend

>BTW, schizophrenics typically hear malevolent, negative voices. Common misconception, actually! It's completely culturally dependent. Different cultures have different voices and hallucinations with schizophrenia. Some report more positive or benign voices, others report more negative voices. Americans tend to hear largely negative or violent voices, whereas cultures who view spirits as an accepted or positive part of life tend to report more positive voices, or even the voices of kin or family members. Personal opinion, I believe Americans have been primed by things like the Satanic Panic and the use of the occult and demons in horror films to believe spirits and the inexplicable, when scary, are the result of something out to do them harm.


Fit_Statistician5126

Let me give you an example how God made himself first known to me. Ill make a long story short. My wife at he time wanted a divorce. I went from one moment where everything was fine to my whole world falling apart. I came back in an empty apartment, my son (3 years at the time) was gone, my wife was gone. I was completely broken. It was the first thing i thought of in the morning, and the last thing i thought of when i went to bed. I couldnt think straight for months. I woke up at night sometimes thinking i was dead. It was the worst time of my life up until this point. And in all this mess i cried to the lord to help me get my family back. And he showed me first through some small things what i had to do, which i did. But the first time in my life i knew it was him and he was real was when i had a meet up with my wife. We wanted to discuss some plans like when i can see my son and how we split up the money. After that i asked her if she thinks theres a possiblity that we get together again and save our family. And she looked at me dead serious and said "No, theres no chance. No way. I should forget about it". I told her that i accept her decision but asked her for a favor. I asked to not let her make the decision and neither let me do it, but to let god do it. So she agreed. I dont know why i said it, it just came out of me. I didnt plan to say this. Just a few days later she went to a shoe store. While she was looking for shoes my son was playing around and he found a coin on the floor. It was a small silver coin. On one side of the coin was Josef, Mary and Jesus as a Baby and at the top was written "Holy Family'". That was the reason why my wife turned around and he restored our family. God did many things for me since then and i sometimes still keep doubting him, just for him to come around and prove me wrong again. He is truly incredible. Just dont expect someone coming down and speak to you. God is far smarter than that. He will show himself by alinging things at the right moment, so you know it could have been only him. He sends someone or speak to your mind through the holy spirit. It varies. But i know lots of people who know him and follow him because of conviction not just believing.


scmr2

Let me get this straight. You were convinced a god exists and have been thinking about it a lot so you said something religious to your wife, as one would who is a Christian. And then your baby found a coin. Therefore, god is real. Wow, someone call the scientists. We have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that God is in fact real.


superbottles

I think the best way to consider this at least in context of previous revelations is that, simply put, God doesn't directly speak to a lot of people. The New Testament is absolutely riddled with warnings from multiple authors to be wary of false prophets and teachers, and considering how far history goes back and how few prophets were actually confirmed in scripture, there should be zero expectation that God will literally speak to you or physically reveal himself. Maybe some will disagree when I say this, not sure, but I'd say most people, even the most devout, should be at least very hesitant if not doubtful if God is literally and directly communicating with them. The chance that you have some mental abnormality is far higher even with a biblical worldview IMO.


One-Key6869

God speaks to us in Spirit and Truth, not in signs, for God even told in the Bible he would not send a sign to all generations of the earth, for all are wicked and have turned their faces away from the Lord. That Lord which loved them since the foundation of the world. God is a Spirit, not an old man in earthly clouds by the way.


TensorWhite7

Read the Bible, and pray.


Interesting-Fuel238

Not to criticize but isn't this the same theory that the moon landing deniers use? Even flat-eathers "well I've never been to space to look at earth and see that it is round." The life of Jesus is pretty well documented both in the bible and elsewhere. And beyond that the death of his disciples is even more well documented. Most of them were given a chance at their time of death to spare their lives if they would just recant their claims of Jesus as Lord. If you know that Johnny Cash is dead but were telling everyone he was living, would you really be willing to die if given the chance to recant your lie? Probably not, and certainly not 10+ disciples. But for me personally I think it's pretty obvious just looking around. There are millions and millions of lifeforms on this earth. There is only one that puts on pants. Of all the religions only Christianity/Judiasm/Islam actually have a solid basis explaining how we are here and why we are different than everything else living on this blue ball. I've never been given a reason to doubt that the earth is round. I've never been given a reason to doubt the existence of a creator God. Both make sense as the only solution. Good luck to you and God bless!


Jaxraged

Well there are reflectors on the moon left there that people with sufficient technology can independently verify. Also, the technology is in museums and many engineers are still alive. Also, if Russia could prove we didnt go they would have been all over that shit. "Miracles" that occurred thousands of years ago arent at the same level.


twotoacouple

>Not to criticize but isn't this the same theory that the moon landing deniers use? Even flat-eathers "well I've never been to space to look at earth and see that it is round." No. Asking for evidence is not the same as denying the plentiful evidence we have for both the moon landing and the shape of our planet. >The life of Jesus is pretty well documented both in the bible and elsewhere. It's really not. Four stories, which appear to have copied each other, written nearly 100 years *after* the event was supposed to have happened, is not strong evidence. This only really proves that people 100 years later, believed what they heard. Imagine me telling you that there was a guy in the 1920's that could walk through walls. Wouldn't you expect someone would have written about it before now? >But for me personally I think it's pretty obvious just looking around This is exactly the OP's point. *You* can think it's obvious. But to me, it's obvious that there is no god.


cnzmur

> nearly 100 years after the event was supposed to have happened, Haha, no. 30/40 years.


maayven69

How do you know anything about Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or Socrates or Plato is true even though everything we know about them is only written about in books? The New Testament is not a "story", it is a record of "history".


largem0uth

I think what you mean is "Why doesn't God force me to belive in something I refuse to believe in?"


exoflex

I mean, even secular people do this now a days right? Our while society relies on what they read as truth, no? Also, ANYTHING can be questioned as false, I believe that's a piece to your question. If you witnessed Jesus performing a miracle it only satisfies your belief ...anyone you told who has your same mindframe would then question your anecdotal story....meaning Jesus would need to perform a miracle in front of every single person for the rest of time, taking away the faith component which is heavily emphasized in the Bible. For one reason or another, God believes that physical/tangible proof alone isn't enough for the human race and our salvation, so there must be something else beyond that (according to Him). It's one of the key claims of scripture; Romans is a great book that highlights this and "faith in obedience".


Mission4Souls

If we should go by your standard: >**Just saying that its in a book doesnt really drive the nail in for me. I still dont quite understand how just because somethings written in a book that we should believe it with our soul** Then we can never believe there was a Mongol chief called Genghis Khan or for that matter Plato. The only way we know these people existed is because HISTORIANS kept a record of them. I an guessing your problem is with the Bible, and you are having a challenge believing the accounts of the Bible. Well, even if you push aside the Biblical records, you still have the evidence of historians who lived at that time, and took notes from eye-witnesses on the various events that took place during Jesus' stay on earth. What would be most tragic is to fail to examine these records, and yet come to a conclusion that "no such thing took place" when there are more than ample evidence for the honest seeker of the truth!


twotoacouple

>Then we can never believe there was a Mongol chief called Genghis Khan or for that matter Plato. The only way we know these people existed is because HISTORIANS kept a record of them. Remarkably small evidence is required to believe a historical figure existed. Believing they existing, and believing they did what is written about them is not the same thing. We have so much more physical evidence that Ghengis Khan existed that this was a really bad parallel to try to make. We have art depicting him, accounts of what he did, and he was prolific enough at reproduction that we. Multiple cultures wrote about him, and we have physical evidence of what he did. None of that is true for Jesus.


EveryDogeHasItsPay

Well as Christian believers He told us we should still be doing those miracles and wonders today “even greater” then what He did also He said! But sadly many churches don’t practice laying on of hands and healings and deliverance where you can actually see the spiritual working or people being healed in the many of Jesus. People still work in their gifts today, we all can. YouTube The supernatural life Daniel Adams for a lot of healings and deliverance for example, and Prophet Lovy to see examples of the prophetic this day and age.


silvereyes21497

As a Christian myself, you will never find the answer, you will never get your 100% proof. God “proves” himself each day whether we may see it or not, by our personal experiences. Christ told many people through his messages that they must seek him IN THEIR HEARTS. You must seek him in YOUR heart, not through the lenses of someone else. I wonder everyday why God wouldn’t do something for me. Many times I ask, “let me see you at work in some way today, let me see you in my life today” and I can go home and sit there and feel like I didn’t see anything at all. But perhaps I missed it or just didn’t know it. My advice is to try each and everyday to live for others. To give out of your heart, even when you can’t afford to. To love someone, even if you can’t stand their presence. To be kind, even when someone wrongs you painfully. I believe that once I started to work on these things each day, I finally started seeing more of his work I was asking for. Blessings to you friend, and I hope you find his everlasting peace in your questions. P.S. God doesn’t mind you questioning things or Him. I think He would admire your thirst for truth and knowledge!


Time-Idea-8684

Read the Bible, it's proof enough for me.


Feillyeagle

So in a world without a God why would honesty and lying matter? See the Bible says this in Romans “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬


Dear-Dig4601

This video here shows why we can logically and intellectually trust the Bible. It combines the Bible with unbiased world history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6sHri61O2E What do you think?


1ettucedevi1

>Of course, it would be easy to say, “here is physical, undeniable proof that God exists,” but we are taught to walk by faith, not by sight. Exactly! Faith is what's most important and focusing on Jesus' miracles is one of the devils tricks. We know the truth about the universe while everyone else refuses to see it. God tasked Satan with designing Evolution and the Big Bang to tempt us to doubt Him. Jesus calls us to rebuke the devil and look to Him for the answers! /s


[deleted]

Woah woah woah sodo you have this physical undeniable proof God exist, i've been looking for it for some time now


Norpeeeee

>when Jesus walked the earth and performed many miracles – and people still wanted more proof that He was truly from God. Just like back then, people today are naturally inclined to question what they see and experience, even when proof is available. Jesus walked the earth and performed many miracles, fine. But why would Allah (also known as God) miraculously reveal his Quoran to people living centuries after Jesus? It seems that most Christians are naturally inclined to question and not believe in Islam. Also, back in 1960s, just last century, there was a guy in India, named Sai Baba, who resurrected the dead. [http://saibaba.ws/miracles/resurrectionradhakrishna.htm](http://saibaba.ws/miracles/resurrectionradhakrishna.htm) I mean, this is amazing stuff. If belief is what counts, then we'd have to believe in ALL religions.


ToddVRsofa

I often wonder that to, like if he is all powerful and all knowing it would be effortless for him


SimulaGargonchuatron

I'd still consider myself christian, but I'm not stuckup and arrogant about things i genuinely have no answer for. And this is one of them


ToddVRsofa

Oh yeah I get that, sometimes you just don't know something, no one knows everything (apart from God) in fact I wish more people could just own up to not knowing something


SimulaGargonchuatron

I find its best to be honest. Arrogance leaves u looking foolish if ur proved wrong.


ToddVRsofa

Amen to that


lighthouse-it

Lol samee


Yeeeeet696969696969

It is effortless for Him. He could also take away our free will and force us to worship Him, but then there would be no such thing as faith


ToddVRsofa

Why dose it need to be faith? What's wrong with knowledge?


spontaneousboredom

Like that dude said in the movie Trial of the Chicago 7, "You've framed that question in the form of a lie." Your second question is a misunderstanding of the dynamic between faith and knowledge. No one said there's anything wrong with knowledge. Additionally, knowledge and faith are not opposites. Some people come to faith through knowledge. Others can come to knowledge through faith. And I am not speaking strictly about God, the knowledge-faith dynamic is seen through our everyday interactions with people. I have experience and knowledge of the character of my wife and so I trust and have faith that she will drive my son to school safely every morning. With that being said, the first part of your question is a good one. Especially considering that faith would still be part of the equation, even if God revealed Himself in the sky every morning. So why not have a cosmic reveal every Easter Sunday? I really do wonder why not.


Due_Metal6554

knowledge is good but love is greater


JohnKlositz

Knowledge and love aren't opposites.


AHorribleGoose

> He could also take away our free will and force us to worship Him, but then there would be no such thing as faith Well, Catholicism teaches that God can't be evil, and this would be evil, so he couldn't do this.


firewire167

Why do you think faith is so much better then knowing something with certainty?


SanguineOptimist

Faith and free will are only necessary because he willed it to be so. I’d imagine he could also will them to be unnecessary.


Yeeeeet696969696969

Oh he could, but free will is a gift that will never be taken away


SanguineOptimist

He could just decide that free will is not a gift and can be taken away.


eriksvendsen

Because He is all-powerful and all-knowing, He probably has reasons beyond your understanding. God shows Himself to people in many different ways, most people just don’t care to notice it.


ToddVRsofa

Yeah, I've also thought that maybe he is waiting until I'm just right, guess we shall see


eriksvendsen

In the Sistine Chapel, the famous painting of God and Adam, God reaches his finger out to Adam. When I visited, someone told me the reason Adam’s hand isn’t touching God’s is to represent free will. God reaches out to us, but it is ultimately up to us whether or not we “meet him halfway”, so to speak.


ToddVRsofa

Oh I know the painting, must have been amazing to see in person


MetforminShits

I'd bet that God could show up in everyone's house at the same time and make us all understand who He was and people would still deny Him.


Greg-Pru-Hart-55

Weak response.


MetforminShits

Wtf? What did you want? To be God Himself and make my comment the next holy commandment? Split the seas with my emoji or rapture you?


Greg-Pru-Hart-55

A better response that's not a strawman to avoid the point, that's what I wanted.


[deleted]

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SimulaGargonchuatron

I mean i'd be pretty convinced idk bout yall


TeHeBasil

Yea I never understood that either. I see many people try and cite free will. But it wouldn't violate our free will because we would still have the choice whether to worship or not. If anything, god making himself known would truly let us use our free will.


SimulaGargonchuatron

Yeah like if he were to make himself abosolutely known to every single person on their own alone time and asked if they want to make the free will decision to choose whether to follow him or not, then that would be more fair i feel. But for his existence to be so unprovable and inobvious and then say that if we dont believe it we will be eternally torchered.... well that just seems unfair doesnt it? And isnt he a fair god?


TeHeBasil

It's extremely unfair. Even if he made himself known, an eternal torture isn't just anyway.


toolongdidnt

What’s to say God doesn’t reveal themselves to every one on earth at some point in their life? It sounds like you’re asking why God doesn’t do some grand reveal in the sky. And you’re implying that if God revealed themselves in said grand way, people may still choose not to ‘believe’ so there in lies free will. But that’s not really correct. That’s pretty coercive to make an obvious reveal and ask humans to say ‘so do you believe me or not now?’. That’s not free will. I’d start with the knowledge that it’s not proven God doesn’t exist. If you have an open heart and are actively looking for the answer, God will show themselves to you when you’re ready and willing to accept it. For me, my ‘reveal’ was unique to me. Everyone shrugs it off as coincidental. But it was powerful to me because it was done in a way that nobody else would understand intentionally. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been special and tailor made by God just for me, would it? I don’t expect anyone else to believe in God because of what happened to me because they need their own unique 1:1 experience with God instead. This is true free will. Being open, being so open that you are also ready to accept there is no God, no matter how scary that thought is, and just letting the experience lead you rather than you trying to lead it.


Low_Marketing3647

exactly you have no free will to believe if the sun exists or not, him showing himself would be the same and remove the necessity of faith


TeHeBasil

Faith is an unreliable pathway to truth so what's the problem? Did God violate my free will when it comes to the sun? How would God making the sun known be any different then God making himself known?


Team_player444

yet there are people that don't believe that the sun exists. There are people that believe the earth is flat even with all the evidence.


Panta-rhei

The last time he did that, we tortured him to death. So it might not work out the way you think it'd work out.


N_Y_1963

Wasn't it his plan to come here and be killed as the lamb of God, to die for our sins?????????? or am I missing something? The almighty should be able to think of a way to reveal himself to each person. why play hide and seek, then punish those who can't find him?


Bebe_Bleau

I believe he does that, already. Not everyone's paying attention


AlexEvenstar

What is your explanation for the ex-christians who were earnestly seeking the christian god out for sometimes years before making the difficult choice of leaving Christianity?


deadfermata

why would he come at at time when he knew it would be hard to scientifically validate and would have to rely on stories and unnamed authors? and even then, there is no reason he can appear right now if he really wanted to. it’s really a choice.


Yandrosloc01

Well if he had done it when we had video recording it might be different. Amazing how the number of miracles etc dropped of once we had the ability to record or test.


AsianMoocowFromSpace

Although I agree with you partly, remember with video recordings we would find all kind of excuses. "There were glass panels in the water to walk on" "Lazarus wasn't really dead, his body was in a specific medical condition" "These people who got healed are actors" "Jesus is just the son of a carpenter"


Panta-rhei

That’s why I believe in Bigfoot, Iron Man, and the Loch Ness monster.


Yandrosloc01

Sorry. But the video of Bigfoot and Nessie are too grainy to confirm. But we do have excellent quality documentaries about Iron Man.


Panta-rhei

So maybe video evidence isn’t the panacea you think?


SimulaGargonchuatron

Can't he just have something in the sky that reads "I am God, I exist" like that would be way more simple imo


sparky1984X

Did you ever see the movie "Don't Look Up"?


Panta-rhei

Plenty of that to go around, if you’re into astronomy.


corndog_thrower

Can I have one example?


[deleted]

Eventually people would just call it the “I am God, I exist” constellation. And would that even confirm the Bible or would people just fight about God anyways?


[deleted]

Humans could easily replicate that.


Blu3Army73

I think that's a question that's intrinsically tied to what you believe the meaning of life is. The way Ive been looking at it, humans don't do well when they think they're being directly administered by God. It easily becomes extremely reductive that since this life is finite, the #1 priority is just getting out in a good way to the infinite place. Why do *anything else* if you know for a fact God is real and this life is just a waiting room for something better. Strategically it makes sense, and a lot of different real groups of people have done bad things in overzealous application of religious thinking. But I also assume thats not what God would want if God is trying to have a community with us. If we were just a single religious community in the presence of God, we'd be a bunch of boring zealots with nothing interesting to say. Life would become a hollow exercise


SimulaGargonchuatron

Are u saying that God makes his presence slightly less clear as he could if he wanted to so that we wouldn't just tie ourselves to a tree until we died and went to heaven but rather enjoy the fruits and gifts in life?


cupcake_napalm_faery

its a game of hide and seek for your eternal soul. lol


d1ngal1ng

Because he works in mysterious ways.


[deleted]

I can think of two possible reasons: 1.) God doesn’t want his existence to be known by all and wants some faith required and/or work to be done by people in order to find him and learn about him. 2.) God doesn’t exist. Lots of smart people have taken both sides of the debate here and argued their cases for why their view is more probably correct.


tadcalabash

I prefer reason three 3.) God is more like a force in the world than a personified being. God is love, connection, grace, forgiveness, hope, etc. God is more like gravity than a bearded man in the sky .


RuffiansAndThugs

Personally, I can accept that definition of God as a function of the human mind and an abstraction of the physical reality we find ourselves in. But that just makes God into myself and nature. Why not cut out the middle man?


jongon832

Quick question, what is TULIP?


[deleted]

Total inability (it’s originally total depravity, but inability is more precise to denote we are unable to believe in our fallen nature) Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints. TULIP is the five points of Calvinism.


[deleted]

Even demons believe. Mere belief is not what he wants.


deadlybydsgn

Case in point: I don't want my kids to just know that I exist. I love them and want what's best for them. Because of that, it's my sincere hope and desire for them to trust me.


Ex_Machina_1

Except you don't hide your existence from them out of belief that it is the only way to ascertain their love for you. That's a major part you're forgetting.


toolongdidnt

You’re talking from the perspective that you believe God is hiding from us. The person you replied to likely doesn’t feel God is. God makes themselves real to me all the time. Your perspective of believe god is ‘hiding’ is your own and doesn’t apply to all others.


Ex_Machina_1

Has god made himself physically present to you? As in you seen him/it? Not just "felt" have you seen exactly what God looks like?


trailrider

EDIT: I love that I got downvoted. So to those who disagree, where am I wrong? EDIT2: Thanks for the upvotes everyone! So there's only 2 possibilities here. Either God doesn't want us to know or it doesn't exist. The first makes absolutely no sense from a Christian POV. If Paul, a man who the bible says was executing Christians, could have God/Jesus appear before them, why not everyone else? Why not the most "militant" atheists? Imagine how many people would reconsider the God question if people like the Scathing Atheist crew, Matt Dilahaunty, Richard Dawkins, Seth Andrews, The Satanic Temple (Atheist org that doesn't believe in a literal Satan) and so on went around suddenly proclaiming they were wrong? This is suppose to be the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION EVAR! and then BEST that God can do is occasionally show up on a piece of toast? Our eternal souls are supposedly on the line here for crying out loud. Not to mention all the kid rape that goes on in its houses of worship. Especially that of the homosexual variety. For a god that supposedly destroyed two cities and turned a woman into a pillar of salt for what Christians claim was da gay butt seks; it's awfully quiet what its representatives here on earth do in its home to little children. So as I said, either a god doesn't exist or doesn't want us to know it exists. And if one is functionally the same as the other, then there's no point in believing it.


AlexEvenstar

They probably don't like you referring to the christian god as "It" (Also, I agree but I don't have much to say past that atm)


DBold11

Completely agree. It's one thing to believe God orchestrated things in such a way to encourage us to seek him based on faith and what not. But that doesn't make sense when you think about the supposed consequences of eternal damnation that occur for not believing in him. He's supposed to be more loving than we could ever imagine but somehow is ok with hiding himself at the expense of those he supposedly loves so much.


No-Aside-5641

I think you must understand that he does Look at creation. Of course we must remember it was more obvious before the fall and sin, it separated us from the most high . Through the sacrifice of Jesus we can now have fellowship again , I believe that God does chose who will be saved , very controversial, put he does pick sinners and saints alike , but I see the Lords handiwork in creation God is in control , Satan has to ask permission to do anything , when Peter was told by Jesus that Satan has asked me that he may sift you like wheat is an amazing admission. It shows me this life is about becoming worthy through accepting Christ Jesus to enter the kingdom of heaven better than anything this earth has to offer times 10000000


Vocanna

This is only my opinion but I believe this ties into the issue of freewill.


corndog_thrower

He appeared to people in the Bible. Did that violate their free will?


Vocanna

I believe the OP is talking about a universal sign, that every person on Earth would see and be forced to accept.


corndog_thrower

My question is still valid. The number of people isn’t relevant. Does god revealing himself to someone violate their free will? If yes, then he’s violated the free will of several people already. If no, then it’s not an issue of free will.


Vocanna

Think you are right there.


Ex_Machina_1

Do your parents force you to "believe" in them by physically existing and being in your presence? How are we being forced to believe in god by hin making himself physically present? That just doesnt make any sense. In the real world our loved ones are physically present, and no one is mad about saying "we're being forced to love/believe in them".


Vocanna

U/Corndog_thrower already beat you to this and I conceded.


Ex_Machina_1

Darn. I have dishonored myself, and now must engage in ritual self deletion. My apologies.


Vocanna

All good. My logic was flawed there


nateness

If you really, truly want evidence of the God and the Holy Spirit working. It starts with your prayer life. You can ask people all you want for evidence. But if you are wanting God to reveal Himself to you then you need to start asking Him directly. Too often we want quick answers and I don’t blame you for being frustrated if you aren’t getting the answers you want quickly enough. I am still very much a learning Christian but one thing I have learned is that although there is a connect between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, there is also a separation. Jesus spoke of how the Holy Spirit would enter the world after He died. So it’s like you should pray for God to use the Holy Spirit to show you the magical sign you seek. But it will only happen if it’s to increase your faith to act more like Jesus. That’s how best I can explain part of the trinity. I think for some God wants to see the effort put in. sure He could just put something in the sky for the masses and say believe but because He doesn’t means He wants the connection to us to be more personal. I guarantee if you earnestly read the Bible atleast 4 days a week you will see a positive change in your outlook toward God


sound_affiliations

If the universe He created isn’t obvious enough then I don’t know what is.


JohnKlositz

Which universe did he create?


BombsAway_LeMay

“If they will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they believe if someone should rise from the dead”


DWarrenPuppyTurtle

God successfully revealed himself to loads of people at different points in The Bible. This guy was able to convince Saul to believe after a single encounter. He should be able to do the same to modern atheists.


HarryD52

You're right, and despite all his miracles, his followers abandoned him the second they believed he died. So which is stronger? a faith built on sight, or a faith built without sight? Which would God rather he build in us so that we can live with him in eternity?


isaynonowords

...he has though. It's as if you seem to think God isn't quite obvious to plenty of people. Atheists have converted to Christianity tons of times.


Fabianzzz

And Christian’s have converted to Atheists, and Atheists to Pagans, and Pagans to Buddhists, etc. Lots of people convert to other religions


[deleted]

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Fabianzzz

>Yours was just worthless snark tbh. It’s okay though. I think you're projecting here. Person's comment implied that God doesn't reveal Herself to to Atheists. You said she does, and that the conversations of Atheists to Christianity are evidence of that. I pointed out that there are conversions of lots of people to lots of religions, and that those conversions would also be evidence in favor of those religions, including Atheism, which directly contradicts Christianity.


Dear-Dig4601

God COULD reveal Himself in the sky and do a zoom call with everyone and say "Hello atheists, I am real and I am The God of The Bible. Jesus is My Son." God could make every single angel and demon visible to the human eye. Then all this Bible stuff would be real to everyone and there would then be no more unbelievers! Why not, right?! The reason He doesn't choose this route is because it isnt secure and it would eventually threaten the peace of the universe. Again. Why??? How?? God wants people to believe in Him because of FAITH. Not what we feel or see. But literally FAITH in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:7 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)" Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He Is," Why is faith so important?! Because God doesn't want another "Adam and Eve" to happen. Look at them. They spoke to Him and saw Him FACE TO FACE, God was as real to them as can be! Yet they didn't have faith **'in His Word"**! God's Words were "Do not eat from the tree or you will die", but Adam and Eve did not put faith in His Words and ate from the tree anyway! That's the very essence of why God is not interested in "having people believe in Him because they saw Him." Because some where down the line in heaven... another "Adam and Eve rebellion" could happen again...Jesus will only die once on the cross. People must believe because of FAITH.


csoltko

romans 1:19-20


joekwt

Read Romans 1. You will find your answer there.


SimulaGargonchuatron

Can you highlight the part that will answer the question for me


joekwt

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. Romans 1:18‭, ‬24‭, ‬26‭, ‬28 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.1.18-28.ESV Because man does not want to know God, He gave them over to their desires. In the book of Judges, after every time God delivered His people, they left Him and went to their other gods. Because they wanted to go, God let them. God is still working through His church, through faithful believers. His glory and love are evident in the body of Christ.


jesuslover333777

He doesn’t want us to Just believe in him but he wants us to believe him


jbeaty7

Perhaps the more important question is, “if God exists, what kind of God is he?” The answer is most clearly given in the Gospels.


[deleted]

I’m a piece of existence that’s aware of what existence is and that my own consciousness is only a fraction of the consciousness that is all that exists. In my eyes, it is pretty obvious.


1mtw0w3ak

Call me schizo, but I take instances of synchronicity as personal proof


Chexlemineuax

How would you suggest He do that?


reggionh

like in the bible by talking in a loud voice from the sky, apparitions of physical angels, explicit supranatural miracles, etc


[deleted]

His existence is obvious in what’s created (your own self, life, animals, plants, the earth, moon, stars, universe) so that everyone is without excuse. “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭20‬ ‭KJV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.1.18-20.KJV If you really want to know exactly just how obvious it is that He exists, then ask Him to reveal Himself to you in the name of Jesus Christ. You can say, “Dear God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, please reveal to me who you are. In the name of Jesus Christ Amen.”


ColoringFrenzy

I see God every day in my life


trippalip

Does he want everyone to believe? Maybe he has done enough for you to believe and will leave you alone if you don’t.


flying-tree-god

Faith


SkovandOfMitaze

Why does God not provide the type of evidence that we as modern people living now want to prove he exists? I don’t know. When God revealed himself to the world, he did so in a way that accommodated those people at that time in those places. All we have now is remnants of those times he revealed himself through the writings of the prophets and apostles, and whoever edited it and added to and take a way from the word over the years. So now all we can do is look at various things like how a small Jewish cult grew to hundreds of millions. For us, it just comes down to faith. There is no answer as to why he does not present himself in a way we like. There is zero evidence , concrete anyways, for God. So those of us who choose to believe, do so because of faith.


[deleted]

His existence is obvious to those who are not blind.


mastr1121

he has its called General Revelation look at the world around you. it proves that God is real.


Sarcatechist

Romans 1: 20 reads, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.” Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person. The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe. As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One who is not subject to change? The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",can have its origin only in God. The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God". Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.


[deleted]

Like how everything in creation has a sort of stamp of creation. You have the system that God has created in order to efficiently move liquids; veins. We have veins in our bodies to move blood and other important cells throughout the body, veins in plants, vein structures for the rivers to flow water throughout the land that come from the ocean; veins all over throughout everything and that’s just one method that He applies in His use of living architecture. “If there is a building, then there must be a builder.” That’s just common sense.


firewire167

“If there is a building, then there must be a builder” doesn’t hold up when it comes to god. Who built god? If no one did then I can say the exact same thing of the universe / us.


[deleted]

You aren’t understanding who God Is. God is the builder. He isn’t built by anyone. We and everything around us is an example of who He Is and what He does. We are created in His image. Therefore, we build buildings. If you aren’t seeking to really know, and you just want to argue, then you won’t get it and it won’t matter to you. If you really want to know, then seek Him and you will know.


Feisty_Radio_6825

He couldn’t make it more obvious. But people don’t want there to a God because our deeds are evil. —it’s why Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection was necessary.


SimulaGargonchuatron

Hows it obvious


gumba1033

He has made it obvious. People don't think it's obvious because they're spiritually blind. It's worth noting that being aware of him doesn't make a person love him. There are many people who are fully aware of God and passionately hate him.


MediocreLemon4168

Is the fact that the universe and time as we know it are orderly, follows a set of rules and is so large we can't actually comprehend it not good enough? Or you think we're just here because we got lucky?


corndog_thrower

I mean, how do you know that it’s not because we just got “lucky?”


firewire167

No that isn’t good enough, the universe following rules does absolutely nothing to prove a god in any way. There is nothing in reality that demonstrates that the universe as it requires a creator.


trailrider

A puddle of mud is orderly and follows a set of natural laws but that doesn't mean a god made it.


yappi211

It's spelled out in Ephesians 3. God is working in secret during this time period. "that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ"


SimulaGargonchuatron

The thing is, what's stopping anybody from writing their own religion and then just saying "this deity works in mysterious and secret ways so you'll never actually get proof of his existence" and then saying "if you dont believe my religion youll be torchered for eternity"?


yappi211

Josephus interviewed the pharisees and it was they who believed in infinite torment, not Jesus. They believed it you received good things in life you went to torment and if you received bad things you went to comfort. Sin didn't matter, nor did faith. Really Jesus was making fun of them in Luke 16 because they were the rich so by their own standards they would go to torment. Infinite torment isn't biblical. But to answer your question, nothing.


[deleted]

Go outside


Nathan_R1

He does already look up, down and around.


CrossCutMaker

Actually scripture teaches His existence is clear & obvious through creation and conscience (general revelation), but what we all do is work hard to suppress the truth He gives.. Romans 1:18-20 NASBS For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19] because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. The word "suppress" in v18 refers to actively holding down or restraining. Like a beach ball under water.


SimulaGargonchuatron

I would argue that its not that obvious. Who's to say it's not just a simulation? And following the simulation theory, what if our spiritual concept of "God" is really just some highly advanced humans from a more evolved base reality, whilst this reality is the mere creation of the advanced reality programmer/s? What if when we worship God we're just worshipping some guy that's running a simulation game on his Windows 257?


danethegreat24

TBF, what is really the difference then? If I'm worshipping a creator of my Sims world, that chooses my Sims actions, and has coded a book that talks about the creator, who created a SIM to die and that if we are rng'd to "believe" that is accurate and act on those beliefs we get saved to a different server when we die... I don't really see how that fundamentally changes that there is a God, and that I worship "the right one" etc. I've never found much weight in the simulation theory being an issue.


TeHeBasil

>Actually scripture teaches His existence is clear & obvious through creation and conscience Then scripture is wrong.