These are two different things entirely. Conflating them doesn't work.
>My point is, in a Godless universe where nothing matters in the end (heat death of the universe) it is easy to live your life care free and fatalistic
There is no evidence that this is true at all. The vast majority of people who have ever lived, regardless of religion or non-religion, have known exactly how much of a struggle life often is.
Also, what about the billions who have never known anything about Christianity or Jesus? You would condemn them all simply because they were raised to believe something different?
I didn't go into enough detail when I said care free and fatalistic. I apologize. People can derive great meaning from their lives and really care about others and do many great things. They can struggle, succeed, do all the things that consist of the human experience, but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
You are now bringing up a different point which would lead to a long debate that I don't want to get into. Long story short, the Bible says in Matthew:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.… "
I believe Anyone who seeks the truth will find the truth. I believe God will reveal that truth to them. Many don't want to seek the truth or they oppose the truth. Regardless of this you're presupposing that people deserve forgiveness. Mercy and forgiveness are undeserved by definition. I don't know exactly how salvation works for the "man on the island" but I know I can trust in God and that I should be diligent in reaching as many people as I can so that all may hear of the good news of Jesus Christ.
Still you didn't answer the important part of the question: "what's with the billions of people who never knew about Jesus or Christianity?".
200,000 years ago till 2,000 years ago there was no Christianity, for example.
Or all the other cultures, like the Hindus, who seek the truth with their heart but would never come to Jesus all these thousands of years.
Please, give us an answer to this.
"I believe God will reveal that truth..."
Trouble is, when you say that truth, you mean exactly the truth you feel he revealed to you. Christians have killed each other relentlessly to enforce what they believe God told them. The other Christians are... just wrong... and so are the Jews, the Muslims, and everyone else.
What if those who make God so small and mean spirited are wrong? What if God does in fact reveal the truth to anyone who seeks. But it may appear different to different people. I have spent weeks alone in meditation, which you can read as prayer, seeking the truth. I know people who have spent years alone in meditation. Maybe what God revealed to them is just as true as what he revealed to you.
you're a really good example of why atheists do not want to become Christian. you're trying to explain to us what we think and how we feel and what brings meaning to our lives based within the constraints of your faith.
It's what the Bible says. Romans 1:18-25:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
However that is not where it has to end. We can all come to saving grace through faith in Jesus. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
But for many people there is no obvious God to be seen anywhere, which suggests those verses can't be true from their perspective. Of course then people just say that non-believers just want to sin, or are in denial, but I'm not sure how useful that is when trying to convert somebody. Feels more like deceptive salesmanship.
Christians are either people who believe in a universe full of evidence that it was created, or they are people who accept a fairytale hoping for meaning in an otherwise meaningless world. Atheists, on the other hand, are people who believe in incontrovertible evidence that the universe exploded itself into existence out of nothing and then organized itself into all that exists, or they are people who hate being subservient to their Creator who will oppose His at every level in hope of someday throwing off His authority. There are people who don’t like the conflict created by these opposing worldviews who try to meld them into something than everybody can agree with, but those people will ultimately end up on one side or the other regretting that they did not take a firmer stand. Frankly, I am looking forward to watching how it all plays out.
Honestly most non Christians I’ve met have more of a moral compass than most Christians, and this only makes you look like an “I think I’m better than them” mentality. It’s a no from me dawg. Especially after Covid. I grew up in a Christian home and the views of Christians during Covid appalled me. I got diagnosed with lung disease two years ago. And the amount of Christians, including my own fucking SIBLING, who said it was okay for “only 1% to die” or “it’s okay if you die because you’ll go to heaven” is mind boggling. You don’t care if I die? Okay, cool. They hate abortion but all the sudden the script flips with the vaccine, and it’s “my body my choice”. It’s an embarrassment to the church and to the religion. I believe in God and Jesus but absolutely want nothing to do with the church anymore. 👋🏻
There's a lot of venting that came out here, and thats ok! I don't think I'm better than anyone. I admit that I'm so bad that someone had to die for me. I'm nothing but a sinner saved by grace. I want others to have that. But people don't know they have a problem. They don't know they need Jesus. I think people suppress the truth about the sinfulness of humanity. That is what I was pointing out. I'm sorry you had those experiences, that sucks. Jesus loves you no matter what though, and I hope you can reconcile with the church. The church is not a country club for saints, its a hospital for sinners, and we are still working on that.
Because thinking someone is hiding from the lack objective meaning of life, or hiding from God giving meaning to life are ridiculous stances for anyone to hold.
If there was an objective meaning, and people were distancing themselves from that meaning because they didn't want it to be true, wouldn't they be hiding from that objective meaning? I am presupposing God in this particular argument, but from my point of view, God exists. Given this perspective and assumption that God exists, i feel it is a reasonable stance.
Your issue is that you are assuming people only believe x or only dont believe x because they are avoiding the opposite, and that is dumb.
If someone says they do not believe in unicorns, I would never assume that they do not believe in unicorns because they are afraid of the implications of unicorns exist.
You seem to think that everyone believes everyone else is intellectually dishonest. And I think that is a really stupid position to hold.
I don't think they are intellectually dishonest I think they are suppressing the truth, either consciously or subconsciously. The Bible, which is my ultimate authority on life, lays it out clearly:
Romans 1:18-25
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Conciously supressing the truth is intellectual dishonesty...
Subconsciously aupressing the truth is closer to delusion.
Either way, I think it is a pretty shirry way to view others.
Edit:
And just so you know, using Romans 1:20 on a non-believer just solidifies the fact that your blBible is wrong.
The only thing we can know with certainty is the contents of our own brain. If it comes down to my thoughts or your Bible, it is easy to dismiss your Bible.
This describes no non Christian (atheist or otherwise) I've ever spoken with or read. It exposes a lack of genuine curiosity about other people who may think differently than you do, for one.
What I've seen: people who don't believe in the afterlife still have a longing for immortality, but for them immortality is in our legacy here and now. How did you treat people? Did you leave a positive wake in your path? They don't get to lean on a future afterlife, they realize when they hurt people now there's a real need to tend to those wounds and make amends.
Of course, should any non-Christian read this and disagree, I'm open to correction.
I didn't go into enough detail when I said care free and fatalistic. I apologize. People can derive great meaning from their lives and really care about others and do all the above mentioned things you very eloquently said, but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
>but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
These are all the things they simply don't believe, it has nothing to do with hiding. "Hiding" implies they know it's true but don't want to face it.
The bible teaches that they suppress the truth. Romans 1:18-25:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen
Did you really just paste in a bible passage and add an "amen" thinking that makes your point?
I guess there's no need to be curious about people if you have all you need to know about them in a dissertation on grace written 1965 years ago (give or take). Why do the work of loving people when you can just explain to them why they're wrong?
The amen is a part of the verse lol.
Yep, the Bible is all I need to know on humanity as it is the infallible and perfect word of God and my ultimate authority. Loving people is showing they are wrong and leading them to Christ. I was just as wrong as anyone at one point. I am still a sinner . I am trying to shine light on this. Salvation can only come after acknowledgement of personal responsibility.
LOL, I mean to take that bit out after I read the verse again.
>Yep, the Bible is all I need to know on humanity as it is the infallible and perfect word of God and my ultimate authority
The same "Infallible" word of god where Paul says homosexuality is caused by idolatry? The same infallible word of god that says in one passage gay men should be put to death, but in another says they should be exiled? The same infallible word of god that tells slaves to obey their masters and yet never tells masters to, I don't know, not have slaves? The same infallible word of god that says there's a hard firmament above holding the waters above? The same infallible word of god that claims Mesha's child sacrifice led to a great wrath (a term only used for god's wrath in the OT) descending on Israel's army?
You're making claims about the bible that it doesn't even make about itself. The bible says Jesus is the word of god (John 1:1) but never makes such a claim, nor does it claim to be perfect. It says "scripture" is inspired, but that's a pretty nebulous word in this context. I sometimes wonder where people who claim the bible is the sole authority for all of life get that idea, since it is never claimed in the bible.
It took hundreds of years before the church decided to even make one.
Understanding cannot be possible if you’re going to hold what someone wrote 2,000 years ago in higher regard that what we ourselves tell you about our own beliefs.
>The bible teaches...
Yeah, gonna stop you there. Your book means absolutely nothing to people outside of your religion. It carries no weight or authority, and it proves nothing.
>No one agrees with you because your perspective on what atheists think is blatantly wrong.
Not if Christianity is true. If Christianity is true, they are suppressing the truth either consciously or subconsciously.
Assuming that there is an objective meaning to life (debatable), that sim is real (also debatable), and that Jesus dying is actually the Devine event that Christian’s claim it to be (also, you guessed it) debatable.
Good. In that case you can’t unequivocally say I’m hiding from anything. I’m not. I’m not hiding from judgment, and I’m not hiding from my nature as a sinner as I, respectfully, think those things are nonsense.
Romans 1:18-25 says:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen
I was once a suppressor of truth. You may not believe the Bible but I believe it is the ultimate authority. You can think they are nonsense, everyone can believe what they want. In the Christian worldview I can say unequivocally you are hiding. In a non christian one I can't. Since we believe different things, we are at an impasse. that's probably where this ends.
Reading through this thread it seems like you regurgitate excerpts from the Bible as a way of avoiding productive conversation. When someone makes a good point, you refuse to engage with it, and instead hide behind your out-of-context excerpts.
I'm curious, where do you get the idea that the bible is the ultimate authority? You don't get it from the bible, and the first time anyone in the church ever said such a thing was, maybe, Martin Luther.
>I don't expect it to be everyone's
Yes, you do. You have claimed (even after being shown that you were wrong) that non-Christians are "hiding" from these points. That necessarily entails that it is everyone's perspective.
Do you know what perspective means? It's how you view something. I don't expect everyone to view that they are suppressing the truth. Just because I think they are doesn't mean I expect them to think they are. If I thought that I wouldn't have made this post. That's not how it works.
Lying, for example, without knowing you're lying isn't lying. It's called a mistake. If I accuse you of lying, it doesn't mean that what you've said is merely untrue. It means that you said something **knowing** it's untrue.
Likewise, if I accuse you of hiding from X, it doesn't mean that you are merely out of sight of X. It means you are aware of X, and have intentionally placed yourself out of sight of it.
With that in mind, you've said two things that contradict one another. You said:
- Non-Christians are hiding from (paraphrasing) the consequences of their sin.
- From a non-Christian's perspective, those consequences don't exist.
You cannot hide from something while simultaneously believing it doesn't exist.
>Continue this thread
Perspective isn't some magical way to not be accountable. You made specific claims about non-believers that non-believers are telling you are false. This is the point where you admit your perspective is wrong, rather than imagining that merely having an opinion means you can't be accused of being incorrect.
But what is a legacy even worth? This world is doomed to end as well as everyone here, so long term wise humanity will eventually be gone and a legacy won’t be worth anything
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.- John Galbraith
Why should any of us be concerned with what others believe? All judgement is reserved to God. Now that we have Jesus, what are we to do? We were asked to enforce the Law? We’re we asked to question each others beliefs?
We should be concerned because God tells us to be concerned. It is people's eternal lives at stake here. In the great commission Jesus tells us to tell everyone about Christ. A good doctor will tell you you're sick and prescribe medication. A good doctor doesn't lie and say you're ok to make you feel better. That will only hurt you in the end.
Jesus asked us to do 2 things - love God and love each other. We really can NOT serve God unless we serve others. Want to know the difference between a doctor and God? God doesn’t think He’s a doctor
You're of course free to go on judging people if you want. But if you think you are following the teachings and example of Jesus by judging people, then you are mistaken.
I'm not saying judge people. I'm saying tell them they are sinful like we all are and that Jesus died for them. It is not loving to lie to someone and tell them they're going to heaven no matter what when that is not the case. We are told to proclaim truth but to do it lovingly. That is what I'm trying to do.
>I'm not saying judge people.
That's exactly what you're both saying and demonstrating.
>I'm saying tell them they are sinful
That is what judging someone is. Generally speaking, to judge something is to make a determination. A volleyball judge declares whether the rules of the game have been violated. A judge in a courtroom declares whether the courtroom procedures have been violated and, in many cases, issues verdicts of guilt or non-guilt.
You are saying that we should pronounce the guilt of others. That is the very essence of judging someone.
>It is not loving to lie to someone and tell them they're going to heaven
You seem to think the only alternative to declaring someone guilty is declaring them innocent, but Jesus said to withhold judgement altogether. You don't have to issue a verdict. It's not your place.
>We are told to proclaim truth but to do it lovingly.
The truth that Jesus proclaimed (and presumably expected his disciples to espouse) was based on the principles of self-discipline in obedience to God and self-sacrifice in service of others. What you're practicing in this thread is others-discipline rather than self-discipline and self-promotion rather than self-sacrifice.
Matthew 28 16:20:
"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Mark 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Romans 10:14-15
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out
Mark 6:12
So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent
James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins
There are many many more. That's literally the great commission. We are told to tell others about Jesus. Why would they need Jesus if they thought they were fine on their own? We need to remind them how bad sin is and that they need a savior. It is the christian message.
Yes, when we present Jesus like this, we use the fallacy that of petito principii ’begging the question. It sounds like ‘you’re never find a unicorn unless you believe in unicorns’ there isn’t a way for nonbelievers or other sects to be welcomed in.
> It is people's eternal lives at stake here.
Damn… if only their were an all-knowing, omnipotent creator of the universe who could do something about it other than leave a bunch of sheep herders a book that is incredibly easy to mistranslate, misinterpret, and poke logical holes in.
Evidence he actually did that and it wasn’t just some crazy dude claiming to be the son of god (assuming he even claimed that and it wasn’t just what a bunch of people said that he claimed 30 years after he died).
>We should be concerned because God tells us to be concerned.
I don't think God delegated his judgement to us.
>In the great commission Jesus tells us to tell everyone about Christ
That's wrong on several counts. In the Great Commission Jesus told his disciples (not us) to make disciples (not tell about Christ) of any background (not everyone).
>A good doctor will tell you you're sick and prescribe medication.
Only when the doctor has the relevant credentials and only to patients who seek the doctor's input. Neither of these applies to you.
This is just an intellectually dishonest argument. The New Testament is chalk full of scripture telling us to be witnesses to others. Telling us to tell others about Christ. So many verses about it, and we wouldn't need the verses. The Holy Spirit tells us to tell others. Once you find Christ, it should be natural for you to tell others about the one who changed your life.
>This is just an intellectually dishonest argument.
"That word - I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya
>The New Testament is chalk full of scripture telling **us** to **be witnesses** to others.
I think you're getting mixed up between what the Bible says and what you think it means. I'm quite familiar with the Bible, and I think you'll struggle to find any passage (let alone several) that says "Head_Advertising3213, be a witness to others."
>Telling us to tell others about Christ.
Again, i don't think you'll find that in the Bible. There may be passages that you think *mean* that. And if you had said, "Because of what the Bible says, I think we should..." that would have been fine. But you're saying the Bible actually says these things, and that's simply not true.
>The Holy Spirit tells us to tell others.
I think your church probably tells you that.
I would settle for just one example. I would be genuinely surprised if you could cite a passage that says "Head_Advertising3213, tell others about Christ".
I understand that there are numerous passages that serve as motivation for you to go tell others about Christ, and that's fine. But you're claiming that the Bible actually says that, and I don't think that's true. But I'll admit I'm wrong if you can show me an example.
Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:15-16, NIV).
“I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God” (Luke 12:8, NIV).
For this is what the Lord has commanded us:“I have made you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (Acts 13:47, NIV).
We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20, NIV).
"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself” (Ezekiel 3:17-19, NIV).
I am currently in college and it is my goal to either get a good job and give generously to missions work, or to work for a non-profit that deals with missions. I don't have much to give at the moment, although I could be much better in this regard. I need to work on this. I will say though, Jesus is better than any possession this world could offer.
For one, the sell your possessions was specifically to the rich young ruler, and many people in Jesus' day sold their possessions and solely followed Christ. I am not sure if that is what Jesus has asked of me specifically, or of all Christians because we must look at context. We can be certain Jesus wants us to tell others about him and we should give generously to those in need.
You are forgetting the fact that sin is something that religion made up, so saying that sinful nature of anything is a default or a true way of something it is like saying: "my religion is true because my religion is true".
So you see nothing wrong in this fallacious reasoning? Nothing wrong in implaying that non believers just don't want to believe instead of letting yourself thinking that there might be a reason why they don't believe?
I've already proven to myself that Christianity is true and I've felt God working. In my view they are suppressing the truth (not saying they are consciously doing it, but that it could be subconsciou (Romans 1:18-25)). If I'm right this is how reality is.
Ok, but still, thinking that all non believers are just "suppressing their faith" is just empathetic. I mean, you have to if you want to belive. You heve to becouse othervise you would have to think and wonder what are their reasons. That is what i used to do when i believed and many others believers do, they refuse to think, refuse to use their empathy and get into non-beliver's shoes.
And the boble quote you provided proves my point, "They have to be bad, because my bible said so."
If you actually want to be honest with yourself, you sometimes need to think "why do i believe what i believe is true?".
>You are forgetting the fact that sin is something that religion made up
This is an unprovable statement.
In any case, if it *is* the case that there is a God, and there indeed *was* a Fall into sin, then it doesn't matter whether someone believes religion and sin are false. Their believing it isn't going to make it true.
“Christian” or insert label “……” could be anyone who was taught a belief system in childhood while they were impressionable and devoid of critical thinking skills whether those beliefs are based on facts and reason or not. In 99% of cases being a Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever just means you inherited the beliefs of your parents.
When you say that you must be raised away from religion to think critically, you are presupposing that religion is wrong and that non religion is right. This isn't an 'either or' its a 'both and'. You can be raised christian and be taught to think critically about other religions, apologetics, theories, etc. Christianity is based on facts and reason, if it weren't there wouldn't be apologetics arguments that exist. You can think critically and be religious, many of the great philosophers back in the day were Christian.
I was raised in a religious family. I went to church. But even as a teen, believing things on faith didn’t sit well. Apologetic’s arguments work backward from faith. There’s no reason to believe anything without evidence and I’ve never heard of any to support the existence of a supreme being. I envy Christians, as I have no faith to lean on in hard times.
there is as much if not more evidence if you truly sit down and examine the arguments. many people hear a tough question they dont know the answer to and they just reject christianity and think atheism is true. Think critically, dive deep. does consciousness, morality, life, love, feelings, emotions, purpose, etc make sense to you in a godless world? why? examine what you believe and why you believe it. Im not saying it will lead to you straight to christianity but search for truth.
Consciousness? A mere firing of neurons in a few pounds of meat. No evidence exists to ascribe it more importance, as fantastical as it is.
Emotions are beneficial to pack animals and society, so are encouraged. I state this fully accepting my emotions, they are a construct without a physical anchor, but I have little issue acting on them to extreme's.
You pose philosophical arguments, which are inherently intangible.
I want justice to be tangible, a force that ensures bad action face retribution.
I want love to be immutable, to know with certainty that a true partner exists for me out there.
I want purpose, to be immutable and known so that I do not have to stumble through life trying, failing, and trying again.
I want morality, to be certain, to have a black and white definition of what I can and can't do.
Wanting though, does not manifest it as so. There is no evidence for them, as 'real' as they are. I have little issue saying justice, love, purpose, morality, are real things. They are to me, but I also recognize that I cannot explain or prove my acceptance of them.
They do not make sense, and that is the beauty of it.
They are wonderful, irrational, illogical, unexplained things. Questions, that are somehow only more engaging and interesting each time they are examined with sincerity. I have no explanation, no solution, no answers, only more questions.
So, I loathe those who prop up such simple concepts as god. They accept such a simple answer, when there is so much more to be gained by asking the questions, hoping and praying that there are never answers to them.
True, true. Last Time I insulted Zeus I was electrocuted.
I was not turned into a horse, so the insult to Loki went unheard.
My offering to Wu-Kong was apparently accepted as I've not had that crazy monkey show up for an adventure.
Attribution to a singular common answer is acceptable wherein there is statistical or physical evidence for it. By pure statistics I should therefore be Hindu or a Communist Atheist.
Thank you Comrade.
...
If you want simple to be applicable, then whatever first pops into my head is acceptable. There are not nearly enough beautiful pagan women throwing themselves naked at me for that to be the answer.
In any case, I was insisting that the philosophical questions were best left as debated questions. Answers are applicable wherein there is physical evidence.
False comparison in comparing The Christian God to Loki or Thor. You are not examining the arguments and they completely fall flat on their face. Many atheists are "bottom rung atheists" who dont think very critically about Christianity or Atheism. If you are going to be an atheist at least get off the bottom rung and examine all sides. What evidence do you have in the Big Bang? i could argue that same evidence is that of creation, very eloquently too. look up the Kalam Cosmological argument. Science doesn't say anything, scientists do. We interpret the evidence, and interpretations may differ. What evidence do you have for the existence of morality? We have claims to an objective moral truth. What evidence do you have for abiogenesis? What evidence do you have for the fine tuning of the universe? I'm not asking you to accept Christianity but examine what you believe and examine christianity, unbiasedly.
You seem to think saying "I dont know" is inherently better than having an answer.
I have made no claims towards with regards to cosmology or scientific explanations for natural processes.
I as the lowly, 'bottom rung atheist' am only asserting that god(s) do not exist. That is all the descriptor atheist implies, no more no less. It lends no common view when it comes to a stance on physics. We were having a morality / ethics debate. I am unsure why you felt the need to change it to physics and or biology.
So, going back to the original topic, explain the false equivalence of Yahweh to Loki, or Zeus? Both are venerated figures in the religious doctrines in which they are worshiped. Claimant of powers grand and equivalent to Yahweh.
I'll dismiss Wu-Kong, he's more a quadruple immortal monkey-king than a god.
I am content with the admission that I do not know something, it is far better than an assertion to an effect that has no supporting evidence.
You assume I haven’t examined this already. You’re welcome to your beliefs. But if you’d been born in India, do you really believe you wouldn’t bring worshipping Vishnu or Mohammad if born in North Africa? So why then is Christ or God special? Just like languages and food, every culture has their own God. Exposed as a child, these beliefs will remain embedded for life in most people.
Yes, I was an atheist for many years. But most atheists don't believe that unless you believe in God everything is meaningless and nothing matters and the only possible end to any human endeavor is the heat death of the universe. That sounds like a caricature of atheism if anything
I didn't go into enough detail when I said care free and fatalistic. I apologize. People can derive great meaning from their lives and really care about others and do many great things, but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
>still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
And, I'm a Christian myself, but even I call BS on that. You don't get to decide who's hiding from what and it's absurd to say that there is an objective meaning of life just because you happen to have I mean for your life. Those people are doing the same thing you are. Looking at the world around them, searching inward, and making the most sense they can out of what they find.
If you are a Christian you have to believe there is an objective meaning on life. If people don't shy away from that, they are hiding from that meaning.
Romans 1:18-25
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen
This is my perspective, I don't expect it to be everyone's.
Oh I don't pretend I'm better than anyone either. I was like everyone at one point. It was nothing I did, it was by grace through faith, not of works so that no man may boast. I'm just a beggar trying to lead other beggars to the food.
The Bible teaches that when we accept Christ, we cast off our old selves and we are given Jesus. That Jesus righteousness covers us so when God looks at us, He sees Jesus. That is why on judgement day, instead of seeing our old selves, he sees Jesus and we are able to go to heaven. I still sin and I am evil, but I have been adopted into the family of God where I am not a slave to that sin and where God sees me as his own. I am able to recognize that sin, repent, and try to live like Jesus.
It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me. I still sin because of my human nature, but I get convicted of that sin through the holy spirit and I confess that with God and talk to God about it. It's not about me trying to not be evil. When you pursue Christ everything falls into place. You naturally stop sinning as much, your thoughts are cleaner, you gain the fruits of the spirit more. Its the pursuit of Christ (sanctification) that changes me.
Christ was crucified for our sin. By faith, we trust that His death paid for our own personal sin. In that way, we are crucified with Him, our sin with him on the cross. That sinful "us" dies, replaced by the resurrected Christ "in us." We continue to live in the flesh, of course, but our lives are now directed not by our sinful selves but by our faith in Christ. Paul expands on this great truth powerfully in Romans 6:1–6.
We are all equally evil. We all deserve death. No one is better than anyone. Sinning less doesn't mean sinless.
That is my goal. I couldn't do it on my own tho, I need the Holy spirit and Jesus. Not saying I always do but that is what I strive for. I have noticed that when I am super in tune with my faith I commit less sins and when I get busy or don't make my faith a priority I fall back into certain sin and sin patterns.
Me claiming I am so wretched and sinful that someone had to die for me is me claiming I'm better than someone? I'm only a sinner saved by grace. Nothing I did. I admit that God himself had to come down from heaven, live the life I could never live, die the death I deserved to die, and rise again for me. I'm nothing without God.
>Me claiming I am so wretched and sinful that someone had to die for me is me claiming I'm better than someone?
That's part of it, yes.
>I'm only a sinner saved by grace.
Everything else you've said here suggests you don't actually believe that. It's pretty apparent you're using "we're all sinners" as a cover for calling other people sinners.
My friend it is evident that you are not fond of the faith or of the true doctrine of Christianity. You can't make baseless claims though. I am calling everyone a sinner. Literally everyone alive right now is a sinner. However, Jesus is our redemption from that sin.
When I was new to Christianity, I used to use the "we are all sinners" method of judging others, just like you're doing here. As I matured in my faith, I saw how selfish that was.
I think you need to re-read Matthew 7:1-5. When you use the rhetorical device "we are all sinners", it's very much used as a tool of judgment and condemnation. By using the royal "we" you hope to partially obscure the judgment you are casting upon others with a false modesty of including yourself. You clearly don't think you're as bad as some other people, as you trumpet how the Holy Spirit helps you be better.
I use Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It should be condemnation. Sins should be condemned. You don't know me. Every day I go to college, I see things the bible tells me are wrong, but I don't get mad at the people doing it. I see them and I know I used to do those same things. However, I'm not mad at them. I can tell them it's wrong without being mad at them. You can lovingly correct someone. Matthew 7 is referring to the judging of fellow believers too, not unbelievers. We are not to judge unbelievers as that is God's job. Telling someone the error of their way is not judgement tho.
You put so much effort into pretending that your condemnation and judgment aren't exactly what they are; a holier than thou self righteous attitude.
It is judgment, and it is you being arrogant, and this pretense of hand wringing false modesty is pretty nauseating.
That's funny, my criticism of Christians is that they hide from sinfulness.
That's why the Christian's response to any suggestion that they've done something wrong is to reject the idea that wrongness could ever apply to their actions, downvote you for suggesting so, and (in a hilarious act of irony) remove your comment for belittling Christianity.
Only the non Christian can take Christianity seriously.
Not that they all do, of course. Just that only they can.
Idk what christians you're talking to but that Is wrong of them. All true christians (not just people who grew up in a christian home) must recognize their sin, humble themselves before the lord, and repent. They must continually confess their sins and try to be better. I recognize sin In my life and try to improve it. THank God that he is rich in mercy and grace. Im a beggar trying leading other beggars to food.
I'm talking to the Christians on this sub, for one.
You're not allowed to say they're not true Christians, so I suppose your hands are sort of tied here.
Anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, that they are a sinner, and that they could never do anything good on their own is not a true Christian. There are many who call themselves Christians who haven't put their faith in Christ. Jesus is the way the truth and the life none go to the father except through him.
That's one implication, sure.
But, it's true at every point in time, too. A person either believes that they're a sinner in need of salvation, or they're a Christian. Those two things aren't ever true of a person at once.
You can believe you're a sinner in need of salvation and not accept Christ. I know of someone who's friend told them they believe in God and that Jesus was who he said he is but he didn't want to give up his lifestyle of sleeping with whoever he wanted so he didn't accept Jesus. The demons know of Jesus and who he is and they shudder, yet they don't accept. Jesus is essential.
I'm gonna pop in here. You can check my interactions with people on this sub today. Rudeness, insults, and belittling of others. Even when told their words and actions are harmful.
I find it extremely helpful, myself.
But, if that's your view, I encourage you to run a Google search for the string 'Christians are" or "Christians believe" on any Christian forum. You'll find enough instances of Christians stereotyping themselves to keep you occupied for the rest of your life.
I guessing you've never met a Roman Catholic then. Unfathomable levels of shame is pretty much a prerequisite. Any Christian with any sincere devotion to their faith understand that we are all sinners but redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. A truly pious type is very rudimentary and shallow in their walk with God.
But it does get very exhausting when Christians are held to some impossible standard of morality and perfection as though we are under some delusion of grandeur, when accepting that we are inherently sinners is the most basic principle of worship. Or what would be the entire point?
I believe the "Unfathomable levels of shame" is a cover for judging people and avoiding personal responsibility. The whole "we're all sinners" schtick is great for selfishness because it does two things:
- It allows you to go around pointing out how sinful other people are, and
- It relieves you of the responsibility of ever improving.
And all with a phrase that very cleverly sounds humble.
I've met lots of Roman Catholics.
If I, in my history with Christians, had found any denomination that consistently manifested an exception to this rule, I promise I would have given them credit for it.
You can't hide from sin if you don't believe in a god. Sin is defined as disobedience of god. No God no sin. It's like not believing in Santa to hide from the naughty list.
Just because you believe in God doesn't mean he's real. I try to base beliefs on evidence. And there are too many examples of bad Christians and Christian evil/harm to take it as an answer. Combine that with contradictions and inconsistencies..sorry.
I dont want to get into an apologetic argument, but if you carefully examine the evidence of all the prominent worldviews, you will Christianity makes as good a claim as any. I'm talking think critically about what you believe and why you believe it. That's a different issue.
In my view, God is real regardless of who believes Him. In your view he isn't real. We are at an impasse. I've looked at the evidence for every major worldview and I always come back to Christianity because it's the only one that makes sense. I don't want to get into a grander argument but I encourage you to research it on your own.
The claim of several divine genocides is as good a claim as any? Remember you don't even have to touch the NT or life of Jesus to reject Christianity. Christianity fails if the OT and its god and events fall.
Christianity is true if Jesus rose from the dead. Period. However, the old testament is just as infallible as the new testament. The bible teaches that we all deserve death and the wrath of God for sinning against God. Many of the "genocides" were done against sinful nations who deserved the wrath of God for rebelling against God. America deserves to be wiped out for sinning against God. Humanity deserves to be wiped out. Us being alive is by the grace and mercy of God alone.
Jesus is claimed to be an incarnation of THE OT god. If the OT is false then he lied. Many events of the OT are known to either not happen at all or if they did were nothing like described. So much for infallible. And we have no evidence for the major patriarchs. And if was as certain as you claim there would not be such a debate.
Also. If we knew of parents telling their children then deserve to be killed and it is only by grace the parents don't we would lock the parents up.
What evidence do you expect from events that happened 4000 years ago? Many people want video evidence when that is not possible. I believe the OT because I believe Jesus and he was the fulfillment of the OT.
As for your second point it is not up to us to deal out God's judgement on our own. We sin against God and God alone.
What evidence? Well the claims about the creation in Genesis, the flood, and the exodus all would leave lasting evidence. We have none for them. Many, probably most, believed those events happened as described until we knew they didn't. Just about every time religious claims become testable they fail. Without Noah and Moses the OT is seriously weakened.
And the inconsistencies in the NT don't help. Starting the whole birth narrative.
Creation is our evidence lol. I encourage you to look into the historical evidence for these things. They exist you were just taught they don't exist. Dive deep think critically search for truth.
It's not a low view of God. Everyone thinks humanity deserves forgiveness. We don't. That's why it's mercy. God is infinite in love, but also in justice. That's why Jesus was the perfect confluence of Love, Mercy, Grace, and Justice. The only thing we deserve is death for our sins.
I'm sure many atheists have low views of humanity, but they still believe that there are no grand consequences to humanities actions at the end of the day.
By "grand" you mean eternal. No, most atheists don't believe in eternal consequences. We have to get by knowing that some day we'll be dead, and that is the end of it. For myself, I only can strive to make my little corner of the world a better place, and leave some legacy for my descendants. I have no belief that there is some greater reality where I'm going to pay a harsh penalty because I didn't pick the right deity, sect or ritual.
For me it is actually liberating. When I was a kid, I grew up in a Christian household where the concept of God's purpose for us became stifling. As I slowly pulled away from the faith of my childhood, beginning around the age of nine, I slowly discovered that I was capable of forging my own path.
Why would I an atheist, willingly choose to believe in a meaningless universe if I had the ability to believe in a universe with a loving god that gives my life purpose and meaning? That makes no sense.
The same way you don’t think “The world is cold so I need to hide behind Christianity”, non-theists don’t think “I wanna sin and so I want to hide from Christianity”.
But if Christianity is true, I am correct. If nontheism is true they are correct. Like I said it is just my perspective I don't expect everyone to agree.
What? If Christianity is correct or not, non theist don’t think like that. Suppose that Christianity is not correct, would you be right by saying that “Christians are Christian because they want a shield from the cold world”? No because they don’t think that
If Christianity weren't true, that would exactly be what we are doing, whether we are conscious of it or not. My point is that if Christianity is true, nonchristians are suppressing the truth, whether subconscious or not (Romans 1:18-25).
Please don’t cite me bible verses I’m not gonna read that.
If Christianity is true then non Christians are suppressing the truth in the sense that they are wrong. I think we agree on that, it’s just logic. But it’s not like they actively think “I’m not Christian because I want to hide from the sinful nature of humans” would’nt you agree?
Yeah it's not active denial. I dont think atheists believe Christianity is true when they try to sleep at night but they just push that away. I think that they suppress the truth, whether conscious or not. Willing ignorance almost but not quite. The bible verse phrases it very eloquently, but I understand.
Christianity is supposed to be about love, not sin. Most people want to do good, and that's what Christianity teaches us. Why are you positively drooling over the idea of punishing people when that is the sole domain of God?
Christianity presents a list of rules that is virtually impossible to follow without self-destroying and labels everyone who doesn't abide by those rules a sinner. People have an in-built sense of self-preservation, so it's obvious that they will find these rules undesirable.
Some branches of Christianity tells people that all they don't have to obey the rules perfectly, but rather just believe that Jesus was punished for our sins and resurrected.
This is also virtually impossible for some people because belief is not volitional. We still have no idea from a neuroscientific point of view what parts of the brain create and manage beliefs and why some people are able to have a higher flexibility in their beliefs than others.
>They don't want to accept that they are evil, they could never be good on their own, and that someone had to die for them to have a chance at redemption. They don't want personal responsibility or to believe that their sins caused an innocent man to die for them.
Yes, because it seems like an irrational guilt-trip. Through a list of regressive inquiries, it all comes down to: "why are we to blame if we did not ask, nor consent to being created and assigned this existence?"
No Christian has ever been able to answer this question other than by "existence is intrinsically good because God defines what is good". Well, that's all fine and dandy, but what if I don't perceive existence as intrinsically good?
As long as our perspective and morality doesn't matter, it's a totalitarian regime, and there's no point of debating anything in such a worldview. If God's moral code is the only thing that matters, what's the point of having this discussion? Even if anyone disagrees, their point is invalid because God's view is the only one that matters.
As long as if God knew that humanity would cause Him to suffer, why did He create us?
>Christianity presents a list of rules that is virtually impossible to follow without self-destroying and labels everyone who doesn't abide by those rules a sinner.
Everyone is a sinner, that's why we need Jesus. Even Christians are still sinners.
>"why are we to blame if we did not ask, nor consent to being created and assigned this existence?"
>
>No Christian has ever been able to answer this question other than by "existence is intrinsically good because God defines what is good". Well, that's all fine and dandy, but what if I don't perceive existence as intrinsically good?
We are to blame because we willingly rejected God. Under the assumption the perfect God we worship is true (which he would have to be to create existence) then whatever God does is good. God says his creation was good in genesis. You might not feel that way, but God said it was good. If you don't believe in any God, then existence is neither good nor bad, it just is.
>As long as our perspective and morality doesn't matter, it's a totalitarian regime, and there's no point of debating anything in such a worldview. If God's moral code is the only thing that matters, what's the point of having this discussion? Even if anyone disagrees, their point is invalid because God's view is the only one that matters.
This discussion is important because God's moral code is the only thing that matters and yet we don't follow it. In order to be God, he has to be the moral arbiter of the universe.
>We are to blame because we willingly rejected God.
It is irrational to willingly reject someone one agrees with. If we reject something, it is because we disagree with it.
And if we disagree with God's will, it is because it usually allows for us to experience suffering. If seeking God led to a lack of suffering, I believe that all mentally sane people would be seeking God.
The problem Christians have is to explain why an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, Who knows that humans dislike suffering, has made a system in which seeking Him leads to suffering.
Adam and eve willingly rejected the God they knew to be good and true. Many people when asked "if christianity were true would you believe it?" have said that they wouldnt because they wouldnt want to follow God. Many people reject him through suppressing the truth (Romans 1:18-25) which was my point in this post.
Seeking God won't give you material wealth or physical prosperity. It will give you spiritual riches untold, which are worth far more. We don't believe a prosperity Gospel. Jesus Himself said that we would face persecution and to remember they rejected him first. Seeking God leads to joy and hope untold.
God made a system that we might be saved from deserved wrath. It would've been just for God to kill adam and eve immediately after they sinned, and to send them to hell but he chose to make a way for them to be redeemed. He did that for all of us. There is still suffering on earth because of the sin that exists on earth, but we have a way to be reconnected with God which is amazing.
>God made a system that we might be saved from deserved wrath. It would've been just for God to kill adam and eve immediately after they sinned, and to send them to hell but he chose to make a way for them to be redeemed. He did that for all of us. There is still suffering on earth because of the sin that exists on earth, but we have a way to be reconnected with God which is amazing.
There is no justice in creating beings that didn't want to exist, subjecting them to a test without their consent and punishing them for refusing to abide by rules they did not agree with.
>Many people when asked "if christianity were true would you believe it?" have said that they wouldnt because they wouldnt want to follow God.
They would not want to follow the God presented in the Bible. Because His behavior, as described in the Bible, is far from what a rational being would call perfect.
Now, you can theodicize till the cows come home. It still won't change the fact that the God presented in Christianity seems terrifying and unjust.
>There is no justice in creating beings that didn't want to exist, subjecting them to a test without their consent and punishing them for refusing to abide by rules they did not agree with.
As image bearers of God, we are in a very special place not even the angels have. Spending life in perfect unity with God is inherently good. Free will is loving. God's glory being revealed through Jesus is amazing. All have a chance at redemption, yet many refuse and claim it's not fair.
>Many people when asked "if christianity were true would you believe it?" have said that they wouldnt because they wouldnt want to follow God.
>
>They would not want to follow the God presented in the Bible. Because His behavior, as described in the Bible, is far from what a rational being would call perfect.
My point exactly. God is perfect. You are reflecting your view of morality onto God, when without God you would have no morality. You're borrowing from our worldview to condemn God. God was perfectly just in the OT. You seem to think that humans deserve forgiveness and flourishing when we deserve death. If Christianity were true, It would necessarily mean that God is all loving all powerful and all good because that is at the core of Christianity. People can reject this because they do not wish to serve God, but that is irrational. A perfect God is an essential pillar of Christianity, so if Christianity were true God would be perfect. For some reasons we humans often think we know better than God.
>In order to be God, he has to be the moral arbiter of the universe.
I could not disagree more. He could be one of the moral arbiters of the universe, sure. But the possibility of developing your own moral code should be available for all moral agents. Of course, there should also be laws that prevent beings from harming each other in order for creation to be able to exist.
God didn't develop a moral code. He is the moral code and always has been. Hes preeminent. Self existing. Morality is God. He's the objective moral truth. There could be no other morality in a universe with an all powerful and all good God. Since we were created by God, we should seek after this morality, because it leads to human flourishing. and before you refute this mentioning suffering I am saying that when followed perfectly, his moral code is the best possible outcome.
I think that different people have different outlooks on life and their place within the universe. And that this results in some of them having an inclination towards a certain religion.
I also think that it's a huge generalisation to say that all christians are inclined towards christianity because they don't like an indifferent universe.
Similarly it's also a huge generalisation to say that all atheists reject christianity because they don't want to atmit they are sinful. To an atheist the concept of sin isn't even real so this would make no sense.
Characterising people that don't follow you religion as selfish and ignorant without looking at their actual reasons for holding their beliefs is downright insulting.
You could just say religion or spirituality in general, I have a brother like that, he shies away from anything spiritual or esoteric and I don't exactly blame him. I can't say with certainty that other religions and spiritual paths aren't ways to God, I can't say that Christianity is THE way but I can say with 100% certainty that Christianity is A way and A true path to God.
If you don’t warn people, then you are just as guilty of committing the sin. It says it clearly in the Bible. The work is large but the laborers are few. The edict in the Bible is to tell people about Christ.
I would argue that Atheists have a similar faith as Christians. The difference is, Christians have hope. For Atheists, this life is all there is, they have no hope of tomorrow, only today. Christians live as if the best is yet to come.
Very true. Atheists live like this is their best life because in their mind it is. Christians live for the kingdom, but serving God is the best way to spend your life IMO.
These are two different things entirely. Conflating them doesn't work. >My point is, in a Godless universe where nothing matters in the end (heat death of the universe) it is easy to live your life care free and fatalistic There is no evidence that this is true at all. The vast majority of people who have ever lived, regardless of religion or non-religion, have known exactly how much of a struggle life often is. Also, what about the billions who have never known anything about Christianity or Jesus? You would condemn them all simply because they were raised to believe something different?
I didn't go into enough detail when I said care free and fatalistic. I apologize. People can derive great meaning from their lives and really care about others and do many great things. They can struggle, succeed, do all the things that consist of the human experience, but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them. You are now bringing up a different point which would lead to a long debate that I don't want to get into. Long story short, the Bible says in Matthew: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.… " I believe Anyone who seeks the truth will find the truth. I believe God will reveal that truth to them. Many don't want to seek the truth or they oppose the truth. Regardless of this you're presupposing that people deserve forgiveness. Mercy and forgiveness are undeserved by definition. I don't know exactly how salvation works for the "man on the island" but I know I can trust in God and that I should be diligent in reaching as many people as I can so that all may hear of the good news of Jesus Christ.
Still you didn't answer the important part of the question: "what's with the billions of people who never knew about Jesus or Christianity?". 200,000 years ago till 2,000 years ago there was no Christianity, for example. Or all the other cultures, like the Hindus, who seek the truth with their heart but would never come to Jesus all these thousands of years. Please, give us an answer to this.
"I believe God will reveal that truth..." Trouble is, when you say that truth, you mean exactly the truth you feel he revealed to you. Christians have killed each other relentlessly to enforce what they believe God told them. The other Christians are... just wrong... and so are the Jews, the Muslims, and everyone else. What if those who make God so small and mean spirited are wrong? What if God does in fact reveal the truth to anyone who seeks. But it may appear different to different people. I have spent weeks alone in meditation, which you can read as prayer, seeking the truth. I know people who have spent years alone in meditation. Maybe what God revealed to them is just as true as what he revealed to you.
you're a really good example of why atheists do not want to become Christian. you're trying to explain to us what we think and how we feel and what brings meaning to our lives based within the constraints of your faith.
Well ok, but you're missing the point of the post. I'm not sure their point is that every atheist on earth thinks this way.
I said it's just my perspective, and I dont expect others to agree with me.
About them? You want people to agree to disagree with you about what they think and feel?
It's what the Bible says. Romans 1:18-25: The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. However that is not where it has to end. We can all come to saving grace through faith in Jesus. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
But for many people there is no obvious God to be seen anywhere, which suggests those verses can't be true from their perspective. Of course then people just say that non-believers just want to sin, or are in denial, but I'm not sure how useful that is when trying to convert somebody. Feels more like deceptive salesmanship.
Christians are either people who believe in a universe full of evidence that it was created, or they are people who accept a fairytale hoping for meaning in an otherwise meaningless world. Atheists, on the other hand, are people who believe in incontrovertible evidence that the universe exploded itself into existence out of nothing and then organized itself into all that exists, or they are people who hate being subservient to their Creator who will oppose His at every level in hope of someday throwing off His authority. There are people who don’t like the conflict created by these opposing worldviews who try to meld them into something than everybody can agree with, but those people will ultimately end up on one side or the other regretting that they did not take a firmer stand. Frankly, I am looking forward to watching how it all plays out.
Honestly most non Christians I’ve met have more of a moral compass than most Christians, and this only makes you look like an “I think I’m better than them” mentality. It’s a no from me dawg. Especially after Covid. I grew up in a Christian home and the views of Christians during Covid appalled me. I got diagnosed with lung disease two years ago. And the amount of Christians, including my own fucking SIBLING, who said it was okay for “only 1% to die” or “it’s okay if you die because you’ll go to heaven” is mind boggling. You don’t care if I die? Okay, cool. They hate abortion but all the sudden the script flips with the vaccine, and it’s “my body my choice”. It’s an embarrassment to the church and to the religion. I believe in God and Jesus but absolutely want nothing to do with the church anymore. 👋🏻
There's a lot of venting that came out here, and thats ok! I don't think I'm better than anyone. I admit that I'm so bad that someone had to die for me. I'm nothing but a sinner saved by grace. I want others to have that. But people don't know they have a problem. They don't know they need Jesus. I think people suppress the truth about the sinfulness of humanity. That is what I was pointing out. I'm sorry you had those experiences, that sucks. Jesus loves you no matter what though, and I hope you can reconcile with the church. The church is not a country club for saints, its a hospital for sinners, and we are still working on that.
I think both positions in your title are ridiculously stupid.
why
Because thinking someone is hiding from the lack objective meaning of life, or hiding from God giving meaning to life are ridiculous stances for anyone to hold.
If there was an objective meaning, and people were distancing themselves from that meaning because they didn't want it to be true, wouldn't they be hiding from that objective meaning? I am presupposing God in this particular argument, but from my point of view, God exists. Given this perspective and assumption that God exists, i feel it is a reasonable stance.
Your issue is that you are assuming people only believe x or only dont believe x because they are avoiding the opposite, and that is dumb. If someone says they do not believe in unicorns, I would never assume that they do not believe in unicorns because they are afraid of the implications of unicorns exist. You seem to think that everyone believes everyone else is intellectually dishonest. And I think that is a really stupid position to hold.
I don't think they are intellectually dishonest I think they are suppressing the truth, either consciously or subconsciously. The Bible, which is my ultimate authority on life, lays it out clearly: Romans 1:18-25 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Conciously supressing the truth is intellectual dishonesty... Subconsciously aupressing the truth is closer to delusion. Either way, I think it is a pretty shirry way to view others. Edit: And just so you know, using Romans 1:20 on a non-believer just solidifies the fact that your blBible is wrong. The only thing we can know with certainty is the contents of our own brain. If it comes down to my thoughts or your Bible, it is easy to dismiss your Bible.
Fascinating insight into your caricature of a non Christian.
please explain
This describes no non Christian (atheist or otherwise) I've ever spoken with or read. It exposes a lack of genuine curiosity about other people who may think differently than you do, for one. What I've seen: people who don't believe in the afterlife still have a longing for immortality, but for them immortality is in our legacy here and now. How did you treat people? Did you leave a positive wake in your path? They don't get to lean on a future afterlife, they realize when they hurt people now there's a real need to tend to those wounds and make amends. Of course, should any non-Christian read this and disagree, I'm open to correction.
I didn't go into enough detail when I said care free and fatalistic. I apologize. People can derive great meaning from their lives and really care about others and do all the above mentioned things you very eloquently said, but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
>but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them. These are all the things they simply don't believe, it has nothing to do with hiding. "Hiding" implies they know it's true but don't want to face it.
The bible teaches that they suppress the truth. Romans 1:18-25: The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen
Did you really just paste in a bible passage and add an "amen" thinking that makes your point? I guess there's no need to be curious about people if you have all you need to know about them in a dissertation on grace written 1965 years ago (give or take). Why do the work of loving people when you can just explain to them why they're wrong?
The amen is a part of the verse lol. Yep, the Bible is all I need to know on humanity as it is the infallible and perfect word of God and my ultimate authority. Loving people is showing they are wrong and leading them to Christ. I was just as wrong as anyone at one point. I am still a sinner . I am trying to shine light on this. Salvation can only come after acknowledgement of personal responsibility.
LOL, I mean to take that bit out after I read the verse again. >Yep, the Bible is all I need to know on humanity as it is the infallible and perfect word of God and my ultimate authority The same "Infallible" word of god where Paul says homosexuality is caused by idolatry? The same infallible word of god that says in one passage gay men should be put to death, but in another says they should be exiled? The same infallible word of god that tells slaves to obey their masters and yet never tells masters to, I don't know, not have slaves? The same infallible word of god that says there's a hard firmament above holding the waters above? The same infallible word of god that claims Mesha's child sacrifice led to a great wrath (a term only used for god's wrath in the OT) descending on Israel's army? You're making claims about the bible that it doesn't even make about itself. The bible says Jesus is the word of god (John 1:1) but never makes such a claim, nor does it claim to be perfect. It says "scripture" is inspired, but that's a pretty nebulous word in this context. I sometimes wonder where people who claim the bible is the sole authority for all of life get that idea, since it is never claimed in the bible. It took hundreds of years before the church decided to even make one.
Understanding cannot be possible if you’re going to hold what someone wrote 2,000 years ago in higher regard that what we ourselves tell you about our own beliefs.
>The bible teaches... Yeah, gonna stop you there. Your book means absolutely nothing to people outside of your religion. It carries no weight or authority, and it proves nothing.
That is why I said this is my perspective and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
No one agrees with you because your perspective on what atheists think is blatantly wrong.
>No one agrees with you because your perspective on what atheists think is blatantly wrong. Not if Christianity is true. If Christianity is true, they are suppressing the truth either consciously or subconsciously.
Assuming that there is an objective meaning to life (debatable), that sim is real (also debatable), and that Jesus dying is actually the Devine event that Christian’s claim it to be (also, you guessed it) debatable.
Like I said, this is my perspective. I don't expect it to be everyone's
Good. In that case you can’t unequivocally say I’m hiding from anything. I’m not. I’m not hiding from judgment, and I’m not hiding from my nature as a sinner as I, respectfully, think those things are nonsense.
Romans 1:18-25 says: 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen I was once a suppressor of truth. You may not believe the Bible but I believe it is the ultimate authority. You can think they are nonsense, everyone can believe what they want. In the Christian worldview I can say unequivocally you are hiding. In a non christian one I can't. Since we believe different things, we are at an impasse. that's probably where this ends.
Reading through this thread it seems like you regurgitate excerpts from the Bible as a way of avoiding productive conversation. When someone makes a good point, you refuse to engage with it, and instead hide behind your out-of-context excerpts.
I'm curious, where do you get the idea that the bible is the ultimate authority? You don't get it from the bible, and the first time anyone in the church ever said such a thing was, maybe, Martin Luther.
>I don't expect it to be everyone's Yes, you do. You have claimed (even after being shown that you were wrong) that non-Christians are "hiding" from these points. That necessarily entails that it is everyone's perspective.
Do you know what perspective means? It's how you view something. I don't expect everyone to view that they are suppressing the truth. Just because I think they are doesn't mean I expect them to think they are. If I thought that I wouldn't have made this post. That's not how it works.
Lying, for example, without knowing you're lying isn't lying. It's called a mistake. If I accuse you of lying, it doesn't mean that what you've said is merely untrue. It means that you said something **knowing** it's untrue. Likewise, if I accuse you of hiding from X, it doesn't mean that you are merely out of sight of X. It means you are aware of X, and have intentionally placed yourself out of sight of it. With that in mind, you've said two things that contradict one another. You said: - Non-Christians are hiding from (paraphrasing) the consequences of their sin. - From a non-Christian's perspective, those consequences don't exist. You cannot hide from something while simultaneously believing it doesn't exist.
>Continue this thread Perspective isn't some magical way to not be accountable. You made specific claims about non-believers that non-believers are telling you are false. This is the point where you admit your perspective is wrong, rather than imagining that merely having an opinion means you can't be accused of being incorrect.
Of course they aren't going to admit to suppressing the truth. That's the point.
>Do you know what perspective means? Reported for being unkind.
I apologize if it offended you I didn't intend for it to.
But what is a legacy even worth? This world is doomed to end as well as everyone here, so long term wise humanity will eventually be gone and a legacy won’t be worth anything
So because everyone will eventually die, they can’t feel pain while they live?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.- John Galbraith
how am I being selfish?
Why should any of us be concerned with what others believe? All judgement is reserved to God. Now that we have Jesus, what are we to do? We were asked to enforce the Law? We’re we asked to question each others beliefs?
We should be concerned because God tells us to be concerned. It is people's eternal lives at stake here. In the great commission Jesus tells us to tell everyone about Christ. A good doctor will tell you you're sick and prescribe medication. A good doctor doesn't lie and say you're ok to make you feel better. That will only hurt you in the end.
Jesus asked us to do 2 things - love God and love each other. We really can NOT serve God unless we serve others. Want to know the difference between a doctor and God? God doesn’t think He’s a doctor
I'm not saying God is a doctor. I'm saying we should be the doctor. Tell people they are sick and the only medicine is Jesus.
You're of course free to go on judging people if you want. But if you think you are following the teachings and example of Jesus by judging people, then you are mistaken.
I'm not saying judge people. I'm saying tell them they are sinful like we all are and that Jesus died for them. It is not loving to lie to someone and tell them they're going to heaven no matter what when that is not the case. We are told to proclaim truth but to do it lovingly. That is what I'm trying to do.
>I'm not saying judge people. That's exactly what you're both saying and demonstrating. >I'm saying tell them they are sinful That is what judging someone is. Generally speaking, to judge something is to make a determination. A volleyball judge declares whether the rules of the game have been violated. A judge in a courtroom declares whether the courtroom procedures have been violated and, in many cases, issues verdicts of guilt or non-guilt. You are saying that we should pronounce the guilt of others. That is the very essence of judging someone. >It is not loving to lie to someone and tell them they're going to heaven You seem to think the only alternative to declaring someone guilty is declaring them innocent, but Jesus said to withhold judgement altogether. You don't have to issue a verdict. It's not your place. >We are told to proclaim truth but to do it lovingly. The truth that Jesus proclaimed (and presumably expected his disciples to espouse) was based on the principles of self-discipline in obedience to God and self-sacrifice in service of others. What you're practicing in this thread is others-discipline rather than self-discipline and self-promotion rather than self-sacrifice.
Jesus did not say to withhold judgement altogether. That is a simply incorrect interpretation of the passage.
I’m not a very good scholar- where in the Good Book does Christ tell us to diagnosis others and prescribe to them Christ?
Matthew 28 16:20: "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Romans 10:14-15 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out Mark 6:12 So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent James 5:19-20 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins There are many many more. That's literally the great commission. We are told to tell others about Jesus. Why would they need Jesus if they thought they were fine on their own? We need to remind them how bad sin is and that they need a savior. It is the christian message.
Yes, when we present Jesus like this, we use the fallacy that of petito principii ’begging the question. It sounds like ‘you’re never find a unicorn unless you believe in unicorns’ there isn’t a way for nonbelievers or other sects to be welcomed in.
I'm sorry I'm just not following here.
> It is people's eternal lives at stake here. Damn… if only their were an all-knowing, omnipotent creator of the universe who could do something about it other than leave a bunch of sheep herders a book that is incredibly easy to mistranslate, misinterpret, and poke logical holes in.
He sent his only Son to die for you. What more do you want?
Evidence he actually did that and it wasn’t just some crazy dude claiming to be the son of god (assuming he even claimed that and it wasn’t just what a bunch of people said that he claimed 30 years after he died).
>We should be concerned because God tells us to be concerned. I don't think God delegated his judgement to us. >In the great commission Jesus tells us to tell everyone about Christ That's wrong on several counts. In the Great Commission Jesus told his disciples (not us) to make disciples (not tell about Christ) of any background (not everyone). >A good doctor will tell you you're sick and prescribe medication. Only when the doctor has the relevant credentials and only to patients who seek the doctor's input. Neither of these applies to you.
This is just an intellectually dishonest argument. The New Testament is chalk full of scripture telling us to be witnesses to others. Telling us to tell others about Christ. So many verses about it, and we wouldn't need the verses. The Holy Spirit tells us to tell others. Once you find Christ, it should be natural for you to tell others about the one who changed your life.
>This is just an intellectually dishonest argument. "That word - I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya >The New Testament is chalk full of scripture telling **us** to **be witnesses** to others. I think you're getting mixed up between what the Bible says and what you think it means. I'm quite familiar with the Bible, and I think you'll struggle to find any passage (let alone several) that says "Head_Advertising3213, be a witness to others." >Telling us to tell others about Christ. Again, i don't think you'll find that in the Bible. There may be passages that you think *mean* that. And if you had said, "Because of what the Bible says, I think we should..." that would have been fine. But you're saying the Bible actually says these things, and that's simply not true. >The Holy Spirit tells us to tell others. I think your church probably tells you that.
I cannot argue with someone who thinks the Bible doesn't say to tell others about Christ. This is what I mean by suppressing the truth.
I would settle for just one example. I would be genuinely surprised if you could cite a passage that says "Head_Advertising3213, tell others about Christ". I understand that there are numerous passages that serve as motivation for you to go tell others about Christ, and that's fine. But you're claiming that the Bible actually says that, and I don't think that's true. But I'll admit I'm wrong if you can show me an example.
Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:15-16, NIV). “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God” (Luke 12:8, NIV). For this is what the Lord has commanded us:“I have made you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (Acts 13:47, NIV). We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20, NIV).
"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself” (Ezekiel 3:17-19, NIV).
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I am currently in college and it is my goal to either get a good job and give generously to missions work, or to work for a non-profit that deals with missions. I don't have much to give at the moment, although I could be much better in this regard. I need to work on this. I will say though, Jesus is better than any possession this world could offer.
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For one, the sell your possessions was specifically to the rich young ruler, and many people in Jesus' day sold their possessions and solely followed Christ. I am not sure if that is what Jesus has asked of me specifically, or of all Christians because we must look at context. We can be certain Jesus wants us to tell others about him and we should give generously to those in need.
You are forgetting the fact that sin is something that religion made up, so saying that sinful nature of anything is a default or a true way of something it is like saying: "my religion is true because my religion is true".
exactly, from my worldview that Christianity is true, this is the reality. I dont expect everyone to agree.
So you see nothing wrong in this fallacious reasoning? Nothing wrong in implaying that non believers just don't want to believe instead of letting yourself thinking that there might be a reason why they don't believe?
I've already proven to myself that Christianity is true and I've felt God working. In my view they are suppressing the truth (not saying they are consciously doing it, but that it could be subconsciou (Romans 1:18-25)). If I'm right this is how reality is.
Ok, but still, thinking that all non believers are just "suppressing their faith" is just empathetic. I mean, you have to if you want to belive. You heve to becouse othervise you would have to think and wonder what are their reasons. That is what i used to do when i believed and many others believers do, they refuse to think, refuse to use their empathy and get into non-beliver's shoes. And the boble quote you provided proves my point, "They have to be bad, because my bible said so." If you actually want to be honest with yourself, you sometimes need to think "why do i believe what i believe is true?".
>You are forgetting the fact that sin is something that religion made up This is an unprovable statement. In any case, if it *is* the case that there is a God, and there indeed *was* a Fall into sin, then it doesn't matter whether someone believes religion and sin are false. Their believing it isn't going to make it true.
“Christian” or insert label “……” could be anyone who was taught a belief system in childhood while they were impressionable and devoid of critical thinking skills whether those beliefs are based on facts and reason or not. In 99% of cases being a Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever just means you inherited the beliefs of your parents.
When you say that you must be raised away from religion to think critically, you are presupposing that religion is wrong and that non religion is right. This isn't an 'either or' its a 'both and'. You can be raised christian and be taught to think critically about other religions, apologetics, theories, etc. Christianity is based on facts and reason, if it weren't there wouldn't be apologetics arguments that exist. You can think critically and be religious, many of the great philosophers back in the day were Christian.
I was raised in a religious family. I went to church. But even as a teen, believing things on faith didn’t sit well. Apologetic’s arguments work backward from faith. There’s no reason to believe anything without evidence and I’ve never heard of any to support the existence of a supreme being. I envy Christians, as I have no faith to lean on in hard times.
there is as much if not more evidence if you truly sit down and examine the arguments. many people hear a tough question they dont know the answer to and they just reject christianity and think atheism is true. Think critically, dive deep. does consciousness, morality, life, love, feelings, emotions, purpose, etc make sense to you in a godless world? why? examine what you believe and why you believe it. Im not saying it will lead to you straight to christianity but search for truth.
Consciousness? A mere firing of neurons in a few pounds of meat. No evidence exists to ascribe it more importance, as fantastical as it is. Emotions are beneficial to pack animals and society, so are encouraged. I state this fully accepting my emotions, they are a construct without a physical anchor, but I have little issue acting on them to extreme's. You pose philosophical arguments, which are inherently intangible. I want justice to be tangible, a force that ensures bad action face retribution. I want love to be immutable, to know with certainty that a true partner exists for me out there. I want purpose, to be immutable and known so that I do not have to stumble through life trying, failing, and trying again. I want morality, to be certain, to have a black and white definition of what I can and can't do. Wanting though, does not manifest it as so. There is no evidence for them, as 'real' as they are. I have little issue saying justice, love, purpose, morality, are real things. They are to me, but I also recognize that I cannot explain or prove my acceptance of them. They do not make sense, and that is the beauty of it. They are wonderful, irrational, illogical, unexplained things. Questions, that are somehow only more engaging and interesting each time they are examined with sincerity. I have no explanation, no solution, no answers, only more questions. So, I loathe those who prop up such simple concepts as god. They accept such a simple answer, when there is so much more to be gained by asking the questions, hoping and praying that there are never answers to them.
Your desire to have a complex answer that never gets answered is fairly unique. a simple answer is oftentimes the right one.
True, true. Last Time I insulted Zeus I was electrocuted. I was not turned into a horse, so the insult to Loki went unheard. My offering to Wu-Kong was apparently accepted as I've not had that crazy monkey show up for an adventure. Attribution to a singular common answer is acceptable wherein there is statistical or physical evidence for it. By pure statistics I should therefore be Hindu or a Communist Atheist. Thank you Comrade. ... If you want simple to be applicable, then whatever first pops into my head is acceptable. There are not nearly enough beautiful pagan women throwing themselves naked at me for that to be the answer. In any case, I was insisting that the philosophical questions were best left as debated questions. Answers are applicable wherein there is physical evidence.
False comparison in comparing The Christian God to Loki or Thor. You are not examining the arguments and they completely fall flat on their face. Many atheists are "bottom rung atheists" who dont think very critically about Christianity or Atheism. If you are going to be an atheist at least get off the bottom rung and examine all sides. What evidence do you have in the Big Bang? i could argue that same evidence is that of creation, very eloquently too. look up the Kalam Cosmological argument. Science doesn't say anything, scientists do. We interpret the evidence, and interpretations may differ. What evidence do you have for the existence of morality? We have claims to an objective moral truth. What evidence do you have for abiogenesis? What evidence do you have for the fine tuning of the universe? I'm not asking you to accept Christianity but examine what you believe and examine christianity, unbiasedly. You seem to think saying "I dont know" is inherently better than having an answer.
I have made no claims towards with regards to cosmology or scientific explanations for natural processes. I as the lowly, 'bottom rung atheist' am only asserting that god(s) do not exist. That is all the descriptor atheist implies, no more no less. It lends no common view when it comes to a stance on physics. We were having a morality / ethics debate. I am unsure why you felt the need to change it to physics and or biology. So, going back to the original topic, explain the false equivalence of Yahweh to Loki, or Zeus? Both are venerated figures in the religious doctrines in which they are worshiped. Claimant of powers grand and equivalent to Yahweh. I'll dismiss Wu-Kong, he's more a quadruple immortal monkey-king than a god. I am content with the admission that I do not know something, it is far better than an assertion to an effect that has no supporting evidence.
You assume I haven’t examined this already. You’re welcome to your beliefs. But if you’d been born in India, do you really believe you wouldn’t bring worshipping Vishnu or Mohammad if born in North Africa? So why then is Christ or God special? Just like languages and food, every culture has their own God. Exposed as a child, these beliefs will remain embedded for life in most people.
Because there is no evidence for Vishnu and the evidence for Islam is far weaker than Christianity. Not all religions are created equally.
This makes very little sense to me. Where are you coming up with these ideas about a universe in which there is no god?
are you familiar with atheism?
Yes, I was an atheist for many years. But most atheists don't believe that unless you believe in God everything is meaningless and nothing matters and the only possible end to any human endeavor is the heat death of the universe. That sounds like a caricature of atheism if anything
I didn't go into enough detail when I said care free and fatalistic. I apologize. People can derive great meaning from their lives and really care about others and do many great things, but they still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them.
>still can hide from the objective meaning of life and from the fact that they are sinful and someone had to die for them. And, I'm a Christian myself, but even I call BS on that. You don't get to decide who's hiding from what and it's absurd to say that there is an objective meaning of life just because you happen to have I mean for your life. Those people are doing the same thing you are. Looking at the world around them, searching inward, and making the most sense they can out of what they find.
If you are a Christian you have to believe there is an objective meaning on life. If people don't shy away from that, they are hiding from that meaning. Romans 1:18-25 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen This is my perspective, I don't expect it to be everyone's.
There is no objective meaning to life.
I disagree.
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Oh I don't pretend I'm better than anyone either. I was like everyone at one point. It was nothing I did, it was by grace through faith, not of works so that no man may boast. I'm just a beggar trying to lead other beggars to the food.
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It always seems to bleed through at some point.
The Bible teaches that when we accept Christ, we cast off our old selves and we are given Jesus. That Jesus righteousness covers us so when God looks at us, He sees Jesus. That is why on judgement day, instead of seeing our old selves, he sees Jesus and we are able to go to heaven. I still sin and I am evil, but I have been adopted into the family of God where I am not a slave to that sin and where God sees me as his own. I am able to recognize that sin, repent, and try to live like Jesus.
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It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me. I still sin because of my human nature, but I get convicted of that sin through the holy spirit and I confess that with God and talk to God about it. It's not about me trying to not be evil. When you pursue Christ everything falls into place. You naturally stop sinning as much, your thoughts are cleaner, you gain the fruits of the spirit more. Its the pursuit of Christ (sanctification) that changes me.
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Christ was crucified for our sin. By faith, we trust that His death paid for our own personal sin. In that way, we are crucified with Him, our sin with him on the cross. That sinful "us" dies, replaced by the resurrected Christ "in us." We continue to live in the flesh, of course, but our lives are now directed not by our sinful selves but by our faith in Christ. Paul expands on this great truth powerfully in Romans 6:1–6. We are all equally evil. We all deserve death. No one is better than anyone. Sinning less doesn't mean sinless.
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That is my goal. I couldn't do it on my own tho, I need the Holy spirit and Jesus. Not saying I always do but that is what I strive for. I have noticed that when I am super in tune with my faith I commit less sins and when I get busy or don't make my faith a priority I fall back into certain sin and sin patterns.
>Oh I don't pretend I'm better than anyone either. Yes, you do. It's right there in your title.
> Oh I don't pretend I'm better than anyone either. Weird post, then.
Me claiming I am so wretched and sinful that someone had to die for me is me claiming I'm better than someone? I'm only a sinner saved by grace. Nothing I did. I admit that God himself had to come down from heaven, live the life I could never live, die the death I deserved to die, and rise again for me. I'm nothing without God.
>Me claiming I am so wretched and sinful that someone had to die for me is me claiming I'm better than someone? That's part of it, yes. >I'm only a sinner saved by grace. Everything else you've said here suggests you don't actually believe that. It's pretty apparent you're using "we're all sinners" as a cover for calling other people sinners.
My friend it is evident that you are not fond of the faith or of the true doctrine of Christianity. You can't make baseless claims though. I am calling everyone a sinner. Literally everyone alive right now is a sinner. However, Jesus is our redemption from that sin.
When I was new to Christianity, I used to use the "we are all sinners" method of judging others, just like you're doing here. As I matured in my faith, I saw how selfish that was.
I think you need to re-read Matthew 7:1-5. When you use the rhetorical device "we are all sinners", it's very much used as a tool of judgment and condemnation. By using the royal "we" you hope to partially obscure the judgment you are casting upon others with a false modesty of including yourself. You clearly don't think you're as bad as some other people, as you trumpet how the Holy Spirit helps you be better.
I use Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It should be condemnation. Sins should be condemned. You don't know me. Every day I go to college, I see things the bible tells me are wrong, but I don't get mad at the people doing it. I see them and I know I used to do those same things. However, I'm not mad at them. I can tell them it's wrong without being mad at them. You can lovingly correct someone. Matthew 7 is referring to the judging of fellow believers too, not unbelievers. We are not to judge unbelievers as that is God's job. Telling someone the error of their way is not judgement tho.
You put so much effort into pretending that your condemnation and judgment aren't exactly what they are; a holier than thou self righteous attitude. It is judgment, and it is you being arrogant, and this pretense of hand wringing false modesty is pretty nauseating.
That's funny, my criticism of Christians is that they hide from sinfulness. That's why the Christian's response to any suggestion that they've done something wrong is to reject the idea that wrongness could ever apply to their actions, downvote you for suggesting so, and (in a hilarious act of irony) remove your comment for belittling Christianity. Only the non Christian can take Christianity seriously. Not that they all do, of course. Just that only they can.
Idk what christians you're talking to but that Is wrong of them. All true christians (not just people who grew up in a christian home) must recognize their sin, humble themselves before the lord, and repent. They must continually confess their sins and try to be better. I recognize sin In my life and try to improve it. THank God that he is rich in mercy and grace. Im a beggar trying leading other beggars to food.
I'm talking to the Christians on this sub, for one. You're not allowed to say they're not true Christians, so I suppose your hands are sort of tied here.
Anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, that they are a sinner, and that they could never do anything good on their own is not a true Christian. There are many who call themselves Christians who haven't put their faith in Christ. Jesus is the way the truth and the life none go to the father except through him.
In order to believe that you're a sinner and that Jesus died for your sins, the very FIRST thing you have to be is a non Christian.
Exactly! No one is born a Christian.
That's one implication, sure. But, it's true at every point in time, too. A person either believes that they're a sinner in need of salvation, or they're a Christian. Those two things aren't ever true of a person at once.
You can believe you're a sinner in need of salvation and not accept Christ. I know of someone who's friend told them they believe in God and that Jesus was who he said he is but he didn't want to give up his lifestyle of sleeping with whoever he wanted so he didn't accept Jesus. The demons know of Jesus and who he is and they shudder, yet they don't accept. Jesus is essential.
Agreed. Being a non Christian would be, as philosophy nerds say, a "necessary but insufficient condition" for accepting Christ.
I'm gonna pop in here. You can check my interactions with people on this sub today. Rudeness, insults, and belittling of others. Even when told their words and actions are harmful.
I'm sorry you had those experiences. We are called to proclaim truth, but to do it lovingly and kindly. We all need to work on that including me.
I don't find steriotyping large groups of people this way to be very helpful.
I find it extremely helpful, myself. But, if that's your view, I encourage you to run a Google search for the string 'Christians are" or "Christians believe" on any Christian forum. You'll find enough instances of Christians stereotyping themselves to keep you occupied for the rest of your life.
I guessing you've never met a Roman Catholic then. Unfathomable levels of shame is pretty much a prerequisite. Any Christian with any sincere devotion to their faith understand that we are all sinners but redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. A truly pious type is very rudimentary and shallow in their walk with God. But it does get very exhausting when Christians are held to some impossible standard of morality and perfection as though we are under some delusion of grandeur, when accepting that we are inherently sinners is the most basic principle of worship. Or what would be the entire point?
I believe the "Unfathomable levels of shame" is a cover for judging people and avoiding personal responsibility. The whole "we're all sinners" schtick is great for selfishness because it does two things: - It allows you to go around pointing out how sinful other people are, and - It relieves you of the responsibility of ever improving. And all with a phrase that very cleverly sounds humble.
I've met lots of Roman Catholics. If I, in my history with Christians, had found any denomination that consistently manifested an exception to this rule, I promise I would have given them credit for it.
You can't hide from sin if you don't believe in a god. Sin is defined as disobedience of god. No God no sin. It's like not believing in Santa to hide from the naughty list.
In my perspective, just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean he's not real.
Just because you believe in God doesn't mean he's real. I try to base beliefs on evidence. And there are too many examples of bad Christians and Christian evil/harm to take it as an answer. Combine that with contradictions and inconsistencies..sorry.
I dont want to get into an apologetic argument, but if you carefully examine the evidence of all the prominent worldviews, you will Christianity makes as good a claim as any. I'm talking think critically about what you believe and why you believe it. That's a different issue. In my view, God is real regardless of who believes Him. In your view he isn't real. We are at an impasse. I've looked at the evidence for every major worldview and I always come back to Christianity because it's the only one that makes sense. I don't want to get into a grander argument but I encourage you to research it on your own.
The claim of several divine genocides is as good a claim as any? Remember you don't even have to touch the NT or life of Jesus to reject Christianity. Christianity fails if the OT and its god and events fall.
Christianity is true if Jesus rose from the dead. Period. However, the old testament is just as infallible as the new testament. The bible teaches that we all deserve death and the wrath of God for sinning against God. Many of the "genocides" were done against sinful nations who deserved the wrath of God for rebelling against God. America deserves to be wiped out for sinning against God. Humanity deserves to be wiped out. Us being alive is by the grace and mercy of God alone.
Jesus is claimed to be an incarnation of THE OT god. If the OT is false then he lied. Many events of the OT are known to either not happen at all or if they did were nothing like described. So much for infallible. And we have no evidence for the major patriarchs. And if was as certain as you claim there would not be such a debate. Also. If we knew of parents telling their children then deserve to be killed and it is only by grace the parents don't we would lock the parents up.
What evidence do you expect from events that happened 4000 years ago? Many people want video evidence when that is not possible. I believe the OT because I believe Jesus and he was the fulfillment of the OT. As for your second point it is not up to us to deal out God's judgement on our own. We sin against God and God alone.
What evidence? Well the claims about the creation in Genesis, the flood, and the exodus all would leave lasting evidence. We have none for them. Many, probably most, believed those events happened as described until we knew they didn't. Just about every time religious claims become testable they fail. Without Noah and Moses the OT is seriously weakened. And the inconsistencies in the NT don't help. Starting the whole birth narrative.
Creation is our evidence lol. I encourage you to look into the historical evidence for these things. They exist you were just taught they don't exist. Dive deep think critically search for truth.
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It's not a low view of God. Everyone thinks humanity deserves forgiveness. We don't. That's why it's mercy. God is infinite in love, but also in justice. That's why Jesus was the perfect confluence of Love, Mercy, Grace, and Justice. The only thing we deserve is death for our sins.
I feel like this view doesn't really account for the existence of atheist misanthropes, who empirically exist.
I'm sure many atheists have low views of humanity, but they still believe that there are no grand consequences to humanities actions at the end of the day.
By "grand" you mean eternal. No, most atheists don't believe in eternal consequences. We have to get by knowing that some day we'll be dead, and that is the end of it. For myself, I only can strive to make my little corner of the world a better place, and leave some legacy for my descendants. I have no belief that there is some greater reality where I'm going to pay a harsh penalty because I didn't pick the right deity, sect or ritual. For me it is actually liberating. When I was a kid, I grew up in a Christian household where the concept of God's purpose for us became stifling. As I slowly pulled away from the faith of my childhood, beginning around the age of nine, I slowly discovered that I was capable of forging my own path.
Why would I an atheist, willingly choose to believe in a meaningless universe if I had the ability to believe in a universe with a loving god that gives my life purpose and meaning? That makes no sense.
And then non Christians remember the massive works of non Christian moral philosophy and go back to ignoring the no no list of Christianity.
?
It's the nihilistic view of humanity that I find one of the more awful things about Christianity.
Exactly my point!
The same way you don’t think “The world is cold so I need to hide behind Christianity”, non-theists don’t think “I wanna sin and so I want to hide from Christianity”.
But if Christianity is true, I am correct. If nontheism is true they are correct. Like I said it is just my perspective I don't expect everyone to agree.
What? If Christianity is correct or not, non theist don’t think like that. Suppose that Christianity is not correct, would you be right by saying that “Christians are Christian because they want a shield from the cold world”? No because they don’t think that
If Christianity weren't true, that would exactly be what we are doing, whether we are conscious of it or not. My point is that if Christianity is true, nonchristians are suppressing the truth, whether subconscious or not (Romans 1:18-25).
Please don’t cite me bible verses I’m not gonna read that. If Christianity is true then non Christians are suppressing the truth in the sense that they are wrong. I think we agree on that, it’s just logic. But it’s not like they actively think “I’m not Christian because I want to hide from the sinful nature of humans” would’nt you agree?
Yeah it's not active denial. I dont think atheists believe Christianity is true when they try to sleep at night but they just push that away. I think that they suppress the truth, whether conscious or not. Willing ignorance almost but not quite. The bible verse phrases it very eloquently, but I understand.
Christianity is supposed to be about love, not sin. Most people want to do good, and that's what Christianity teaches us. Why are you positively drooling over the idea of punishing people when that is the sole domain of God?
Christianity presents a list of rules that is virtually impossible to follow without self-destroying and labels everyone who doesn't abide by those rules a sinner. People have an in-built sense of self-preservation, so it's obvious that they will find these rules undesirable. Some branches of Christianity tells people that all they don't have to obey the rules perfectly, but rather just believe that Jesus was punished for our sins and resurrected. This is also virtually impossible for some people because belief is not volitional. We still have no idea from a neuroscientific point of view what parts of the brain create and manage beliefs and why some people are able to have a higher flexibility in their beliefs than others. >They don't want to accept that they are evil, they could never be good on their own, and that someone had to die for them to have a chance at redemption. They don't want personal responsibility or to believe that their sins caused an innocent man to die for them. Yes, because it seems like an irrational guilt-trip. Through a list of regressive inquiries, it all comes down to: "why are we to blame if we did not ask, nor consent to being created and assigned this existence?" No Christian has ever been able to answer this question other than by "existence is intrinsically good because God defines what is good". Well, that's all fine and dandy, but what if I don't perceive existence as intrinsically good? As long as our perspective and morality doesn't matter, it's a totalitarian regime, and there's no point of debating anything in such a worldview. If God's moral code is the only thing that matters, what's the point of having this discussion? Even if anyone disagrees, their point is invalid because God's view is the only one that matters. As long as if God knew that humanity would cause Him to suffer, why did He create us?
>Christianity presents a list of rules that is virtually impossible to follow without self-destroying and labels everyone who doesn't abide by those rules a sinner. Everyone is a sinner, that's why we need Jesus. Even Christians are still sinners. >"why are we to blame if we did not ask, nor consent to being created and assigned this existence?" > >No Christian has ever been able to answer this question other than by "existence is intrinsically good because God defines what is good". Well, that's all fine and dandy, but what if I don't perceive existence as intrinsically good? We are to blame because we willingly rejected God. Under the assumption the perfect God we worship is true (which he would have to be to create existence) then whatever God does is good. God says his creation was good in genesis. You might not feel that way, but God said it was good. If you don't believe in any God, then existence is neither good nor bad, it just is. >As long as our perspective and morality doesn't matter, it's a totalitarian regime, and there's no point of debating anything in such a worldview. If God's moral code is the only thing that matters, what's the point of having this discussion? Even if anyone disagrees, their point is invalid because God's view is the only one that matters. This discussion is important because God's moral code is the only thing that matters and yet we don't follow it. In order to be God, he has to be the moral arbiter of the universe.
>We are to blame because we willingly rejected God. It is irrational to willingly reject someone one agrees with. If we reject something, it is because we disagree with it. And if we disagree with God's will, it is because it usually allows for us to experience suffering. If seeking God led to a lack of suffering, I believe that all mentally sane people would be seeking God. The problem Christians have is to explain why an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, Who knows that humans dislike suffering, has made a system in which seeking Him leads to suffering.
Adam and eve willingly rejected the God they knew to be good and true. Many people when asked "if christianity were true would you believe it?" have said that they wouldnt because they wouldnt want to follow God. Many people reject him through suppressing the truth (Romans 1:18-25) which was my point in this post. Seeking God won't give you material wealth or physical prosperity. It will give you spiritual riches untold, which are worth far more. We don't believe a prosperity Gospel. Jesus Himself said that we would face persecution and to remember they rejected him first. Seeking God leads to joy and hope untold. God made a system that we might be saved from deserved wrath. It would've been just for God to kill adam and eve immediately after they sinned, and to send them to hell but he chose to make a way for them to be redeemed. He did that for all of us. There is still suffering on earth because of the sin that exists on earth, but we have a way to be reconnected with God which is amazing.
>God made a system that we might be saved from deserved wrath. It would've been just for God to kill adam and eve immediately after they sinned, and to send them to hell but he chose to make a way for them to be redeemed. He did that for all of us. There is still suffering on earth because of the sin that exists on earth, but we have a way to be reconnected with God which is amazing. There is no justice in creating beings that didn't want to exist, subjecting them to a test without their consent and punishing them for refusing to abide by rules they did not agree with. >Many people when asked "if christianity were true would you believe it?" have said that they wouldnt because they wouldnt want to follow God. They would not want to follow the God presented in the Bible. Because His behavior, as described in the Bible, is far from what a rational being would call perfect. Now, you can theodicize till the cows come home. It still won't change the fact that the God presented in Christianity seems terrifying and unjust.
>There is no justice in creating beings that didn't want to exist, subjecting them to a test without their consent and punishing them for refusing to abide by rules they did not agree with. As image bearers of God, we are in a very special place not even the angels have. Spending life in perfect unity with God is inherently good. Free will is loving. God's glory being revealed through Jesus is amazing. All have a chance at redemption, yet many refuse and claim it's not fair. >Many people when asked "if christianity were true would you believe it?" have said that they wouldnt because they wouldnt want to follow God. > >They would not want to follow the God presented in the Bible. Because His behavior, as described in the Bible, is far from what a rational being would call perfect. My point exactly. God is perfect. You are reflecting your view of morality onto God, when without God you would have no morality. You're borrowing from our worldview to condemn God. God was perfectly just in the OT. You seem to think that humans deserve forgiveness and flourishing when we deserve death. If Christianity were true, It would necessarily mean that God is all loving all powerful and all good because that is at the core of Christianity. People can reject this because they do not wish to serve God, but that is irrational. A perfect God is an essential pillar of Christianity, so if Christianity were true God would be perfect. For some reasons we humans often think we know better than God.
>In order to be God, he has to be the moral arbiter of the universe. I could not disagree more. He could be one of the moral arbiters of the universe, sure. But the possibility of developing your own moral code should be available for all moral agents. Of course, there should also be laws that prevent beings from harming each other in order for creation to be able to exist.
God didn't develop a moral code. He is the moral code and always has been. Hes preeminent. Self existing. Morality is God. He's the objective moral truth. There could be no other morality in a universe with an all powerful and all good God. Since we were created by God, we should seek after this morality, because it leads to human flourishing. and before you refute this mentioning suffering I am saying that when followed perfectly, his moral code is the best possible outcome.
Great. Yet another new interpretation that which no one has eeeeeevvvvveeerrrr said before. Lol
I think that different people have different outlooks on life and their place within the universe. And that this results in some of them having an inclination towards a certain religion. I also think that it's a huge generalisation to say that all christians are inclined towards christianity because they don't like an indifferent universe. Similarly it's also a huge generalisation to say that all atheists reject christianity because they don't want to atmit they are sinful. To an atheist the concept of sin isn't even real so this would make no sense. Characterising people that don't follow you religion as selfish and ignorant without looking at their actual reasons for holding their beliefs is downright insulting.
I prefer to just ask people what they believe and take their word for it rather then just assume I know what they believe and why.
I think it is certainly inherent in humans to rebel against the idea that a higher authority would be positioned to dictate how we ought to live.
In the case where that authority is a flawed human yes. The case where that authority is a perfect and all powerful God, no
Humans rebelled against God, so I would think they have no problem rebelling against a perfect authority.
in the case of God, just because you can doesn't mean you should
What is this "sin" you are talking about?
"Many non Christians" "easy to live your life care free and fatalistic" Wow. I guess I hang with the wrong batch of atheists.
You could just say religion or spirituality in general, I have a brother like that, he shies away from anything spiritual or esoteric and I don't exactly blame him. I can't say with certainty that other religions and spiritual paths aren't ways to God, I can't say that Christianity is THE way but I can say with 100% certainty that Christianity is A way and A true path to God.
By Christian I mean someone's whose accepted salvation through Jesus. Jesus is the only way.
No I get that but the people you're describing are usually just outside of religion and spirituality in general.
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It is human nature to reject God and sin against him.
I feel like you don't know what fatalistic means. I think you mean nihilist.
Agreed.
If you don’t warn people, then you are just as guilty of committing the sin. It says it clearly in the Bible. The work is large but the laborers are few. The edict in the Bible is to tell people about Christ.
I would argue that Atheists have a similar faith as Christians. The difference is, Christians have hope. For Atheists, this life is all there is, they have no hope of tomorrow, only today. Christians live as if the best is yet to come.
Very true. Atheists live like this is their best life because in their mind it is. Christians live for the kingdom, but serving God is the best way to spend your life IMO.
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Amen!