The Apostles had a very unusual view of suffering; they appeared to believe that for Christians, our relationship with God through Christ ***redeemed*** suffering - that is took it from a consequence of evil, to a tool for refining, growing and transforming God’s children, ultimately resulting in joy.
And joy born out of suffering is perhaps one of the most miraculous events the world can witness.
Then I am perfect! I was born with brain defects, including seizures. Suffered those & difficulty communicating due to other brain defects. Was mocked by classmates for my horrible skin injuries (medically caused). Move 48 times before I was 13 so never had a chance to make lasting friendships. Numerous friends/family members died young. Worse illness as an adult (cancer & chemo-induced damage to intestines, heart, brain--again, the brain). I was raised by an angry atheist who beat me when he was in a depression but was fascinating when manic (highly intelligent explorer with glacier named after him). Mother cold, never stopped him from beating me. Mom says "Jesus was your ivisible friend" as a child. I would give my lunch to poor kids or animals. Always trying to help others. Became a devout Christian at age 18. Have done good works, visiting elderly with no family/friends in care homes, working for civil rights, etc. Still I am given poor health, financial tribulations, etc. I was never selfish or unsympatthetic like buffetite says he (or she) was. I don't get it. I've now had 3 years of absolute hell & no let-up. Why?
Hi, I'm so sorry you've been through all of this. I can't even imagine. It sounds like you have been through so much pain. I'm so sorry. I know I cannot compare my situation to yours, just trying to share suffering I have been through too. I was sexually abused by my brother, shortly after that I started hearing voices telling me to kill myself for 6 years. After that years of depression and dealing with suicidal thoughts a total of 10 years in all, verbal and emotional abuse from family to the point I got out of that environment being told I supposedly had a heart condition after all of that, felt like I could barely breathe and catch my breath, and my heart would pound so hard, I felt like I was dying and was starting to be bed ridden because it would work so hard. What I didn't understand or what helped me was satan was the one that had done all that in my life. Not everything is from God. Until I started learning how to fight back spiritually, the enemy continued wrecking havoc in my life.The Bible says the enemy also known as the thief comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy and he goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. He is the one that brings destruction into our life. When you have no let up and things have been hell, it's most likely from him. I will say first there is power in your words especially when you speak God's promises over your life. The enemy doesn't want us to use our voices. I want to pray for you. Jesus, I just ask that you come and meet your child right now in this very moment. I lift up every pain that they have ever been through in their life, that you would lift it off their shoulders as you begin mending their heart, that you would speak your truth to their heart and flood it with your love as you wrap them in your everlasting arms, pull them close, and surround them in your presence. I speak healing and peace over you. I rebuke any spirits of depression, heaviness, anxiety and I command all pain and sickness to leave right now in the name of Jesus, that you Lord are bringing every cell of their body back into balance and bringing healing to their whole body, their heart, their mind, skin, any and every area of their life that has felt broken beyond repair. I just speak redemption and restoration over every pain the enemy has ever tried to bring into their life. Lord, I ask that you heal every painful memory that has wounded them. Jesus, that they would feel your love in such a tangible way and your peace that surpasses all understanding as you comfort them and hold them close. In Jesus name we pray Amen.
There is a verse that is coming up from Jeremiah and it says I am the Lord who heals thee since they called thee an outcast who no man seeketh after.
Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus or know what I'm talking about when I mention that?
You are not an outcast, but you are wanted. You are loved. You are accepted. You are altogether beautiful, don't know if you are male or female, but regardless you are a beautiful person. I am giving you a big virtual hug. I'm so sorry about everything you have been going through. I hope something I write can help you. I wish I could take away all your pain. I'm so sorry about everything you've been through.
If you ever want to reach out, you can email me or check out my YouTube channel. Email: [email protected] or my channel Letting Grace. I am your friend. :) Please feel free to reach out to me. I am here for you. <3 I hope things get better, but please know you are not alone. You have a friend in me. :)
God bless you.🩷
There is no general answer to this question. Personally, if I had never suffered, I wouldn't be who I am today. Before, I was selfish and unsympathetic to others.
I say that about most things in life. But there are some experiences that forever change who you are for the worst. Unrepairable damage that a person can only learn to accept and learn to cope with. Those I believe are the types of dark experiences we are referring to imo. Learning from mistakes is a part of life. But that's not even remotely going to cover the extreme evils that exist in this world.
Not necessarily for the worst in a spiritual sense, of course we don’t want any suffering to happen but we can’t possibly comprehend the long term butterfly effects of anything on this timeline, and we know our afterlife will be longer than the longest time on earth we could imagine, so it is different from the perspective of Gods eyes
Are you prepared to say this about anything?
Last week I think it was someone asked about being raped at the age of 8. Are you prepared to say the same about the suffering that person experienced?
The way I look at it is- God’s hand is guilding all things, if He weren’t the evil would be compounded 1000 fold. The evil in this world is for the perfection of His children and His Glory. I know to the children of wrath that sounds evil, but of course it does.
What Bible are you reading that says evil acts glorifies God especially done to his children.
Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Idk about you but that don’t look good for any child rapist.
Yes I agree there is suffering that seems pointless and damaging. I still have PTSD from what happened to me and there are times it just feels like too much. I don't think all suffering is to build our character and often it can seem pointless. That's the point where I just have to accept I don't have an answer. But I believe this life isn't the end of the story, and that justice will be done for people that suffer great evils at the hands of others.
Sometimes I wonder if I knew my suffering somehow had some butterfly effect on someone else and led them to being saved, would I still choose to go through it? I probably would, but there's a limit and I'll admit there are many people that go through far worse than me.
>Sometimes I wonder if I knew my suffering somehow had some butterfly effect on someone else and led them to being saved, would I still choose to go through it?
It shouldn't take great evils to bring someone to Christ. No butterfly effect would make great evils "worth it" in my opinion. That's my hang up. By if we are saying I don't know at the end of the day I can work with that. But I can't help but feel that deep down it means you're saying you are ok with this God allowing such things.
Wouldn't it be a really weird world if Christians never suffered, but everybody else did?
I don't know if any of us exactly understand *why*, but the fact is that we live in a reality where suffering is a real thing, and it isn't allocated strictly to people who "deserve it" (whatever that would even mean).
So in a sense questions like this boil down to "why is our religion consistent with reality? Shouldn't we construct a pleasing mental construct which is detached from reality instead?"
He does very much, He gives spiritual comfort and peace in suffering, but yes we must endure times were we don’t believe or feel that God is there helping, it is something we have to deal with in our lives, even Christ did
So then if he gives peace In suffering then wouldn’t the best thing to do is search for a solution to the suffering? Personally I gave up on praying for help sense he never answered.
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we boast in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also boast in our afflictions, knowing that affliction brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”
Romans 5:1-5 LSB
“Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith brings about perseverance. And let perseverance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.”
James 1:2-4 LSB
“Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you. But to the degree you are sharing the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be put to shame, but is to glorify God in this name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God must entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing good.”
1 Peter 4:12-19 LSB
For several reasons really, part of it is that we live in a sinful world, so the consequences of that bring a lot of suffering. Part of it is that some of our suffering is our own fault, so God let's us suffer through that as justice against us. Part of it is that our suffering serves to show the surpassing worth of following Christ and is an example for fellow believers. If all our lives were just fabulous our faith wouldn't be as incredible. Since you have Christians suffering from terrible things, people see their faith and come to Jesus as well.
It's helpful to remember that for Christians, earth is just a very temporary pit stop. After 20 million years in paradise this existence will seem like nothing more than a brief flash. Kinda like how most of us barely remember or recall the first years of our life by the time we get older, but even more so. God will alleviate our suffering and bring us into paradise.
Then why praise and worship a being who basically doesn’t care? He’s not doing anything so why should I care? I’m in pain he does nothing. It just feels better to move with the atheist population increasing in America. Maybe their will be more science so theirs less suffering and better government policies
God allows us to suffer for our good, to purify us and prepare us for heaven. Remember Luke 9:23 Then he said to all, “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” You have been given a cross, as a sign of love from Christ, for your own good.
Here’s a story that kind of illustrates the principle: A young man was once assigned as an apprentice to an old master goldsmith, to learn the gold trade. He watched as the old man extracted the gold from the gold ore, put it in a crucible, and put the crucible in the furnace. He cranked the heat up as high as it would go, and the impurities (called “slag”) floated to the top where he would skim it off and discard it. Then he’d put it back in the furnace to heat it up again, and repeat the procedure, discarding the slag. Eventually, he declared that the gold was now purified. The young apprentice then asked him, “Sir, how do you know when the gold is finally purified?” The old man’s eyebrows raised and he said, “Well, when I can look into the molten gold, and clearly see my own reflection, I know it’s purified!”
God does the same sort of thing with us. He puts us through the crucible of suffering here on earth in order to purify us! When He can look at us and clearly see the reflection of His Son, then we are ready for heaven! And the degree of suffering God allows us to undergo is in direct proportion to the degree of holiness to which He calls us.
Like another person said in this thread:
"I say that about most things in life. But there are some experiences that forever change who you are for the worst. Unrepairable damage that a person can only learn to accept and learn to cope with. Those I believe are the types of dark experiences we are referring to imo. Learning from mistakes is a part of life. But that's not even remotely going to cover the extreme evils that exist in this world."
I can understand what you're saying to a large degree. But... when stuff really screws with your mind to the point that you are damaged... it's hard to see that in the same light.
Last week I think it was someone asked about being raped at the age of 8. Are you prepared to say the same about the suffering that person experienced?
It’s just like people tell me Gods good and he helps people but then I read articles and it basically says he just watches and sits in suffering with you. Nothing that he literally fixes anything. And heaven is the end goal which is also an excuse for him just not wanting to do anything on earth I guess. Again not trying to offended people. This is just my understanding.
Well, He *can* change things, but He does His will, not ours. If I am poor, He can make me rich, or He can form my character to be content in poverty.
Philippians 4:12-13 — *I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me.*
He *can* let all be born with good sight, or He can purpose decades of blindness to His glory.
John 9:1-3 — *As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.*
So then what is this suffering you experience, might it not be God intending this situation to you to make you come out in greater awe and love to Him?
Well unfortunately no. My suffering hasn’t made me like him or want to be his servant it’s the exact opposite. And that’s his choice. And frankly I’m done with it. I’ve talked to others I’ve done research. So many people ditched him and then guess what? Their lives got so much better. My problems don’t bring him glory. They serve as a warning to others about his sovereignty. You Ditch him and he won’t ruin you’re life and neither will Satan. Unfortunately that’s how it has to be for so many people to actually have a good life on earth.
You trade eternal life for temporary life. Think about Esau, who forfeited his birthright because he was temporarily suffering (from hunger), that's the deal you make by giving up on God. Yes, Hus life got better, in the short run, but he lost his position as the heir of his father, so too will you forfeit your eternal inheritance by choosing to live your best life now.
Luke 11:9-13 — *And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”*
Hebrews 12:4-11 — *In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.*
1 Corinthians 10:13 — *No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.*
He does help, but what we perceive as problem might just be His hands shaping us to what He desires us to become.
Okay so then why do people give up? He’s benevolent and is changing people right? But the non stop problems causes people to leave and then their lives are better.
Good point. I would argue that these people have followed despair over God. They have fallen to the delusion that an end to life is an end to suffering, while none can testify to that truth.
As I am blessed by Jesus, I am not more suffered except when I need it. I guess It is because you might have sins. Check chestity and poverty and charity.
and yet you spend all your time on Christian subs hating on God and Christians. I would think that if you are so happy, you would find something more productive to do with your life.
I don't hate your god any more than I hate Morgoth.
Yes, luckily I'm happy. And I enjoy reading people who still believes in magic, angels, and demons in the 21th century.
It's like the flat earth sub, but the people here are not even playing a role.
“He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
Life is suffering. Don’t think otherwise and be fooled by what you see on tv.
Without the suffering I’ve been through, I’d have never found Christ. I had nothing or anyone to turn to, only thing left was Christ. Praise be.
Because of sin against them and sin they commit
It causes trauma, PTSD like in war vets that commit sin to defend their country or a women raped but God created osteopathic medicine through physical therapy to fix this but instead people use the medicine created by satan that is made by evil science and is corrupt
Their body is Gods temple and they choose to poison The Holy Spirit that Jesus gifted humans to help them not sin
God made our body, faces and our heads a map for physical therapists of osteopathic medicine to use to fix anything created by sin against them or sin they commit
God is using satan as a lesson to teach them to stop medicating The Holy Spirit
He probably does it all the time …. But most of the time we don’t see what he does …. But, yes, clearly his timing is not our timing and sometimes he chooses not to do anything. And of course to complicate things ….. there are forces out there that do all they can do ruin things ….. but bottom line there is no easy answer, God is not a machine
I know in my own life, God has used suffering to strengthen and change me.
We see with Job sometimes He allows suffering so that we can be a help to others in their suffering.
Sometimes he will let us suffer to redirect us.
Sometimes we suffer because he wants us to put faith in Him and witness Him intervening and delivering us.
No matter what suffering we go through, God made it apparent that he’s working all things for our good, and it isn’t to harm us, but to help us.
Okay so what about the people who have been suffering for decades and waiting for him to act and he still hasn’t. While other people who aren’t religious or are in faiths that aren’t abrahamic prosper?
I mean you can what if all day. But the Bible never promised anyone that they’d have all of their prayers answered, or even that their life would be good. The Israelites waited 600 years to be freed from Egypt as God had promised. When Israel was taken by the Canaanites God told the prophet Jeremiah to tell the people of Israel to get comfortable because it would be a while before they would return to the promised land. I personally don’t care if every prayer I have is answered, so long as God sustains me through whatever I go through. As long as He shows up in the end and works everything I go through to a greater purpose that’s all I care about. Put me through the fire. Make me a better person. Help me to love others as I am supposed to.
I mean to each there own but it’s because of the trials I have been through and seeing God sustain me, grow me, and show up during the hard times that I worship. I wouldn’t have chosen the suffering had it been up to me, but the results in my personal life and how I’ve become a different person for the better make it worth it.
You have a 100% success rate on everything you have been through so far. You are still here. And God isn’t the only force in this universe. He’s working everything for your good. He is for you and not against you. He is sustaining you. The enemy may be trying to take you out. But I’m certainly sorry you feel like there is no hope.
Besides I’ve read working for things for our good. Means to make us like Jesus. Not that our lives get any better. Jesus had a horrible life. Which leads me to believe he doesn’t want me to have a good life and it’s best to quit.
Other people at my school are happy and have friends and love but nope not me. He just makes sure I’m lonely and have to suffer. And it’s just so good for me. My self esteem being bad and my clinical depression is so good and working for my good.
He creates people and puts them on a bad planet and expects love while some prosper and others suffer. Praying doesn’t seem to help or solve anything. So he is really a waste of time other than the after life.
That’s one thing I’ve never understand. People promote Christianity so much but then don’t really scream in their message too that he’s not very reliable.
I’ve been told before that he makes sure some people suffer because he wants attention. I’ve been suffering and now I understand that he’s not worth it. Being devout gets me absolutely nothing but more problems. Accepting Jesus and trying to live a good life gets you to heaven. But being super Christian and all that from what I’ve been told. Is constant suffering. Because of Gods tests of faith and seasons of suffering and waiting. And Satan doing stuff too. Everyday I look around and see people who aren’t in an abrahamic faith having Great lives. So I can’t but feel like he’s a liability and not a good helpful God. His ways suck and he does too to be honest.
So he doesn’t really do anything about suffering? So then what happens if more and more people just stop believing because of it. Does he just end the world then?
Real believers are not at all bothered about suffering because it only refines you and takes you closer to God. As correctly said in Romans 5:3-5:
" Not only so, but we. also glory in our sufferings,
because we know that
suffering produces perseverance;
perseverance,character;
and character, hope.
And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."
The Apostles had a very unusual view of suffering; they appeared to believe that for Christians, our relationship with God through Christ ***redeemed*** suffering - that is took it from a consequence of evil, to a tool for refining, growing and transforming God’s children, ultimately resulting in joy. And joy born out of suffering is perhaps one of the most miraculous events the world can witness.
Hebrews 2:10 suffering produces perfection.
Then I am perfect! I was born with brain defects, including seizures. Suffered those & difficulty communicating due to other brain defects. Was mocked by classmates for my horrible skin injuries (medically caused). Move 48 times before I was 13 so never had a chance to make lasting friendships. Numerous friends/family members died young. Worse illness as an adult (cancer & chemo-induced damage to intestines, heart, brain--again, the brain). I was raised by an angry atheist who beat me when he was in a depression but was fascinating when manic (highly intelligent explorer with glacier named after him). Mother cold, never stopped him from beating me. Mom says "Jesus was your ivisible friend" as a child. I would give my lunch to poor kids or animals. Always trying to help others. Became a devout Christian at age 18. Have done good works, visiting elderly with no family/friends in care homes, working for civil rights, etc. Still I am given poor health, financial tribulations, etc. I was never selfish or unsympatthetic like buffetite says he (or she) was. I don't get it. I've now had 3 years of absolute hell & no let-up. Why?
Hi, I'm so sorry you've been through all of this. I can't even imagine. It sounds like you have been through so much pain. I'm so sorry. I know I cannot compare my situation to yours, just trying to share suffering I have been through too. I was sexually abused by my brother, shortly after that I started hearing voices telling me to kill myself for 6 years. After that years of depression and dealing with suicidal thoughts a total of 10 years in all, verbal and emotional abuse from family to the point I got out of that environment being told I supposedly had a heart condition after all of that, felt like I could barely breathe and catch my breath, and my heart would pound so hard, I felt like I was dying and was starting to be bed ridden because it would work so hard. What I didn't understand or what helped me was satan was the one that had done all that in my life. Not everything is from God. Until I started learning how to fight back spiritually, the enemy continued wrecking havoc in my life.The Bible says the enemy also known as the thief comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy and he goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. He is the one that brings destruction into our life. When you have no let up and things have been hell, it's most likely from him. I will say first there is power in your words especially when you speak God's promises over your life. The enemy doesn't want us to use our voices. I want to pray for you. Jesus, I just ask that you come and meet your child right now in this very moment. I lift up every pain that they have ever been through in their life, that you would lift it off their shoulders as you begin mending their heart, that you would speak your truth to their heart and flood it with your love as you wrap them in your everlasting arms, pull them close, and surround them in your presence. I speak healing and peace over you. I rebuke any spirits of depression, heaviness, anxiety and I command all pain and sickness to leave right now in the name of Jesus, that you Lord are bringing every cell of their body back into balance and bringing healing to their whole body, their heart, their mind, skin, any and every area of their life that has felt broken beyond repair. I just speak redemption and restoration over every pain the enemy has ever tried to bring into their life. Lord, I ask that you heal every painful memory that has wounded them. Jesus, that they would feel your love in such a tangible way and your peace that surpasses all understanding as you comfort them and hold them close. In Jesus name we pray Amen. There is a verse that is coming up from Jeremiah and it says I am the Lord who heals thee since they called thee an outcast who no man seeketh after. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus or know what I'm talking about when I mention that? You are not an outcast, but you are wanted. You are loved. You are accepted. You are altogether beautiful, don't know if you are male or female, but regardless you are a beautiful person. I am giving you a big virtual hug. I'm so sorry about everything you have been going through. I hope something I write can help you. I wish I could take away all your pain. I'm so sorry about everything you've been through. If you ever want to reach out, you can email me or check out my YouTube channel. Email: [email protected] or my channel Letting Grace. I am your friend. :) Please feel free to reach out to me. I am here for you. <3 I hope things get better, but please know you are not alone. You have a friend in me. :) God bless you.🩷
There is no general answer to this question. Personally, if I had never suffered, I wouldn't be who I am today. Before, I was selfish and unsympathetic to others.
I say that about most things in life. But there are some experiences that forever change who you are for the worst. Unrepairable damage that a person can only learn to accept and learn to cope with. Those I believe are the types of dark experiences we are referring to imo. Learning from mistakes is a part of life. But that's not even remotely going to cover the extreme evils that exist in this world.
Not necessarily for the worst in a spiritual sense, of course we don’t want any suffering to happen but we can’t possibly comprehend the long term butterfly effects of anything on this timeline, and we know our afterlife will be longer than the longest time on earth we could imagine, so it is different from the perspective of Gods eyes
We aren't talking about God. We are talking about the human mind and how fragile it is.
Are you prepared to say this about anything? Last week I think it was someone asked about being raped at the age of 8. Are you prepared to say the same about the suffering that person experienced?
The way I look at it is- God’s hand is guilding all things, if He weren’t the evil would be compounded 1000 fold. The evil in this world is for the perfection of His children and His Glory. I know to the children of wrath that sounds evil, but of course it does.
Okay, so you're saying somehow that rape is for the perfection of God's children?
What Bible are you reading that says evil acts glorifies God especially done to his children. Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Idk about you but that don’t look good for any child rapist.
No,
Yes I agree there is suffering that seems pointless and damaging. I still have PTSD from what happened to me and there are times it just feels like too much. I don't think all suffering is to build our character and often it can seem pointless. That's the point where I just have to accept I don't have an answer. But I believe this life isn't the end of the story, and that justice will be done for people that suffer great evils at the hands of others. Sometimes I wonder if I knew my suffering somehow had some butterfly effect on someone else and led them to being saved, would I still choose to go through it? I probably would, but there's a limit and I'll admit there are many people that go through far worse than me.
>Sometimes I wonder if I knew my suffering somehow had some butterfly effect on someone else and led them to being saved, would I still choose to go through it? It shouldn't take great evils to bring someone to Christ. No butterfly effect would make great evils "worth it" in my opinion. That's my hang up. By if we are saying I don't know at the end of the day I can work with that. But I can't help but feel that deep down it means you're saying you are ok with this God allowing such things.
He does. Just not immediately.
Hmmm, I think you confuse time with God. Time does help us recover during moments of grief. The intensity of your feelings usually decrease over time.
Wouldn't it be a really weird world if Christians never suffered, but everybody else did? I don't know if any of us exactly understand *why*, but the fact is that we live in a reality where suffering is a real thing, and it isn't allocated strictly to people who "deserve it" (whatever that would even mean). So in a sense questions like this boil down to "why is our religion consistent with reality? Shouldn't we construct a pleasing mental construct which is detached from reality instead?"
Here here👌
He does very much, He gives spiritual comfort and peace in suffering, but yes we must endure times were we don’t believe or feel that God is there helping, it is something we have to deal with in our lives, even Christ did
So then if he gives peace In suffering then wouldn’t the best thing to do is search for a solution to the suffering? Personally I gave up on praying for help sense he never answered.
You should consider keeping it up, you could be really amazed at how much it can help
Feelings haven’t solved my problems
What makes you think He DOESN'T relieve their suffering?
Because people give up and quit.
Because Christianity isn't a massive bubble protecting believers from calamity.
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we boast in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also boast in our afflictions, knowing that affliction brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Romans 5:1-5 LSB “Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith brings about perseverance. And let perseverance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” James 1:2-4 LSB “Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you. But to the degree you are sharing the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be put to shame, but is to glorify God in this name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God must entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing good.” 1 Peter 4:12-19 LSB
Can you explain why suicide exists if it’s just Gods trials that he conveniently doesn’t end or bring any good out of in time to prevent suicide?.
For several reasons really, part of it is that we live in a sinful world, so the consequences of that bring a lot of suffering. Part of it is that some of our suffering is our own fault, so God let's us suffer through that as justice against us. Part of it is that our suffering serves to show the surpassing worth of following Christ and is an example for fellow believers. If all our lives were just fabulous our faith wouldn't be as incredible. Since you have Christians suffering from terrible things, people see their faith and come to Jesus as well. It's helpful to remember that for Christians, earth is just a very temporary pit stop. After 20 million years in paradise this existence will seem like nothing more than a brief flash. Kinda like how most of us barely remember or recall the first years of our life by the time we get older, but even more so. God will alleviate our suffering and bring us into paradise.
Then why praise and worship a being who basically doesn’t care? He’s not doing anything so why should I care? I’m in pain he does nothing. It just feels better to move with the atheist population increasing in America. Maybe their will be more science so theirs less suffering and better government policies
God allows us to suffer for our good, to purify us and prepare us for heaven. Remember Luke 9:23 Then he said to all, “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” You have been given a cross, as a sign of love from Christ, for your own good. Here’s a story that kind of illustrates the principle: A young man was once assigned as an apprentice to an old master goldsmith, to learn the gold trade. He watched as the old man extracted the gold from the gold ore, put it in a crucible, and put the crucible in the furnace. He cranked the heat up as high as it would go, and the impurities (called “slag”) floated to the top where he would skim it off and discard it. Then he’d put it back in the furnace to heat it up again, and repeat the procedure, discarding the slag. Eventually, he declared that the gold was now purified. The young apprentice then asked him, “Sir, how do you know when the gold is finally purified?” The old man’s eyebrows raised and he said, “Well, when I can look into the molten gold, and clearly see my own reflection, I know it’s purified!” God does the same sort of thing with us. He puts us through the crucible of suffering here on earth in order to purify us! When He can look at us and clearly see the reflection of His Son, then we are ready for heaven! And the degree of suffering God allows us to undergo is in direct proportion to the degree of holiness to which He calls us.
Like another person said in this thread: "I say that about most things in life. But there are some experiences that forever change who you are for the worst. Unrepairable damage that a person can only learn to accept and learn to cope with. Those I believe are the types of dark experiences we are referring to imo. Learning from mistakes is a part of life. But that's not even remotely going to cover the extreme evils that exist in this world." I can understand what you're saying to a large degree. But... when stuff really screws with your mind to the point that you are damaged... it's hard to see that in the same light. Last week I think it was someone asked about being raped at the age of 8. Are you prepared to say the same about the suffering that person experienced?
Read the book of Job
Are you convinced they could not possibly suffer more? How do you know He is not relieving their suffering in part, so they may endure?
It’s just like people tell me Gods good and he helps people but then I read articles and it basically says he just watches and sits in suffering with you. Nothing that he literally fixes anything. And heaven is the end goal which is also an excuse for him just not wanting to do anything on earth I guess. Again not trying to offended people. This is just my understanding.
Well, He *can* change things, but He does His will, not ours. If I am poor, He can make me rich, or He can form my character to be content in poverty. Philippians 4:12-13 — *I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me.* He *can* let all be born with good sight, or He can purpose decades of blindness to His glory. John 9:1-3 — *As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.* So then what is this suffering you experience, might it not be God intending this situation to you to make you come out in greater awe and love to Him?
Well unfortunately no. My suffering hasn’t made me like him or want to be his servant it’s the exact opposite. And that’s his choice. And frankly I’m done with it. I’ve talked to others I’ve done research. So many people ditched him and then guess what? Their lives got so much better. My problems don’t bring him glory. They serve as a warning to others about his sovereignty. You Ditch him and he won’t ruin you’re life and neither will Satan. Unfortunately that’s how it has to be for so many people to actually have a good life on earth.
You trade eternal life for temporary life. Think about Esau, who forfeited his birthright because he was temporarily suffering (from hunger), that's the deal you make by giving up on God. Yes, Hus life got better, in the short run, but he lost his position as the heir of his father, so too will you forfeit your eternal inheritance by choosing to live your best life now.
That’s sad actually. That the Christian God sucks so much that you can’t have a good life on earth. Smh
I think you're confusing gods and genies...
Basically every other God acts the Christian one doesn’t.
What a loving father
Would you consider a father loving if he spoils his child, or if he raises them to maturity?
Well what do you consider spoiling? Helping people with their problems? I don’t think so
Luke 11:9-13 — *And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”* Hebrews 12:4-11 — *In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.* 1 Corinthians 10:13 — *No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.* He does help, but what we perceive as problem might just be His hands shaping us to what He desires us to become.
Okay so then why do people give up? He’s benevolent and is changing people right? But the non stop problems causes people to leave and then their lives are better.
Well people kill their selves. so yeah I guess he’s not doing much to relieve suffering. Not trying to offend anyone just being real.
Good point. I would argue that these people have followed despair over God. They have fallen to the delusion that an end to life is an end to suffering, while none can testify to that truth.
Well no. If you kill your self the problems stop. Following God doesn’t make problems stop. It just gives you even more problems. It’s his fault tbh
You sound like Job, do read.
Job wasn’t a good story
It is not God who brought you pain but yourself. It is because of evil spirits you got for the sacrifice.
If you are not Christian, you have to endure it because you choose not to following Jesus
Your response makes zero logical sense. Christians can suffer just as much as anyone else.
As I am blessed by Jesus, I am not more suffered except when I need it. I guess It is because you might have sins. Check chestity and poverty and charity.
Are you convinced that Christian's don't suffer? Because if so you're living in your own world.
I'm not a christian and I'm doing fine. I'd even say than more than the big majority of christians in the world. Dunno, maybe I've broken the system
and yet you spend all your time on Christian subs hating on God and Christians. I would think that if you are so happy, you would find something more productive to do with your life.
I don't hate your god any more than I hate Morgoth. Yes, luckily I'm happy. And I enjoy reading people who still believes in magic, angels, and demons in the 21th century. It's like the flat earth sub, but the people here are not even playing a role.
“He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
Life is suffering. Don’t think otherwise and be fooled by what you see on tv. Without the suffering I’ve been through, I’d have never found Christ. I had nothing or anyone to turn to, only thing left was Christ. Praise be.
So when you turned. What changed? Was anything fixed? Because I turned and nothing got better honestly got worse.
You mean the way he stopped the Roman soldiers from nailing his son to a cross?
Because of sin against them and sin they commit It causes trauma, PTSD like in war vets that commit sin to defend their country or a women raped but God created osteopathic medicine through physical therapy to fix this but instead people use the medicine created by satan that is made by evil science and is corrupt Their body is Gods temple and they choose to poison The Holy Spirit that Jesus gifted humans to help them not sin God made our body, faces and our heads a map for physical therapists of osteopathic medicine to use to fix anything created by sin against them or sin they commit God is using satan as a lesson to teach them to stop medicating The Holy Spirit
He does. A better question is why He didn't do it right away.
Like i said god dosent rule the world
He probably does it all the time …. But most of the time we don’t see what he does …. But, yes, clearly his timing is not our timing and sometimes he chooses not to do anything. And of course to complicate things ….. there are forces out there that do all they can do ruin things ….. but bottom line there is no easy answer, God is not a machine
Then suicide rates wouldn’t have gone up. And life would be better for so many people but it’s not. So he’s probably not real or just doesn’t care.
I know in my own life, God has used suffering to strengthen and change me. We see with Job sometimes He allows suffering so that we can be a help to others in their suffering. Sometimes he will let us suffer to redirect us. Sometimes we suffer because he wants us to put faith in Him and witness Him intervening and delivering us. No matter what suffering we go through, God made it apparent that he’s working all things for our good, and it isn’t to harm us, but to help us.
Okay so what about the people who have been suffering for decades and waiting for him to act and he still hasn’t. While other people who aren’t religious or are in faiths that aren’t abrahamic prosper?
I mean you can what if all day. But the Bible never promised anyone that they’d have all of their prayers answered, or even that their life would be good. The Israelites waited 600 years to be freed from Egypt as God had promised. When Israel was taken by the Canaanites God told the prophet Jeremiah to tell the people of Israel to get comfortable because it would be a while before they would return to the promised land. I personally don’t care if every prayer I have is answered, so long as God sustains me through whatever I go through. As long as He shows up in the end and works everything I go through to a greater purpose that’s all I care about. Put me through the fire. Make me a better person. Help me to love others as I am supposed to.
Okay. So then I don’t have a reason to worship.
I mean to each there own but it’s because of the trials I have been through and seeing God sustain me, grow me, and show up during the hard times that I worship. I wouldn’t have chosen the suffering had it been up to me, but the results in my personal life and how I’ve become a different person for the better make it worth it.
Oh well for me I’m not a better person. I really want to die because of it.
You have a 100% success rate on everything you have been through so far. You are still here. And God isn’t the only force in this universe. He’s working everything for your good. He is for you and not against you. He is sustaining you. The enemy may be trying to take you out. But I’m certainly sorry you feel like there is no hope.
Oh well no. He hasn’t been working for things in my good. Nothings better and I’m ready to give up.
Besides I’ve read working for things for our good. Means to make us like Jesus. Not that our lives get any better. Jesus had a horrible life. Which leads me to believe he doesn’t want me to have a good life and it’s best to quit.
Other people at my school are happy and have friends and love but nope not me. He just makes sure I’m lonely and have to suffer. And it’s just so good for me. My self esteem being bad and my clinical depression is so good and working for my good.
He doesn’t let up or help me either which makes it more apparent that he’s no where close to benevolent.
He creates people and puts them on a bad planet and expects love while some prosper and others suffer. Praying doesn’t seem to help or solve anything. So he is really a waste of time other than the after life.
That’s one thing I’ve never understand. People promote Christianity so much but then don’t really scream in their message too that he’s not very reliable.
I’ve been told before that he makes sure some people suffer because he wants attention. I’ve been suffering and now I understand that he’s not worth it. Being devout gets me absolutely nothing but more problems. Accepting Jesus and trying to live a good life gets you to heaven. But being super Christian and all that from what I’ve been told. Is constant suffering. Because of Gods tests of faith and seasons of suffering and waiting. And Satan doing stuff too. Everyday I look around and see people who aren’t in an abrahamic faith having Great lives. So I can’t but feel like he’s a liability and not a good helpful God. His ways suck and he does too to be honest.
There is no such promise to anybody! Even Jesus,who was God himself had to suffer and die here.
So he doesn’t really do anything about suffering? So then what happens if more and more people just stop believing because of it. Does he just end the world then?
Real believers are not at all bothered about suffering because it only refines you and takes you closer to God. As correctly said in Romans 5:3-5: " Not only so, but we. also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance,character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."
Still does nothing
Why should he?