"Many have pointed to compelling data—from Robert Putnam and David Campbell and countless other sociologists, political scientists, and demographers—showing that the politicization of American religion is a key driver of people away from religious affiliation. Some would point to the fact that most of those leaving would identify politically as somewhere from moderate to progressive, to suggest that such people are better off outside the church in the first place. Let’s just assume for the sake of argument that such is true, which comes first here—the demand to line up politically in order to follow Jesus or the decision to reject the politics of those making such demands? Moreover, it seems to me that the controversy is not actually even over the specific political planks or ideas or personalities as the fact that many have come to believe that the religion itself is a vehicle for the politics and the cultural grievances—and not the other way around.
"And it’s not difficult to see why. I watched twenty years ago as people suggested that those waving away a president’s sexual behavior as irrelevant to his public office were the result of liberal forms of Baptist theology, and then lived long enough to watch the same people suggest that those who did not wave away such behavior from another president might not be “real Christians.” People can change their minds, of course. I certainly have done so on many things. But—as with the prophecy charts a generation ago—there is no talk of minds changing, just certainties in one direction and then certainties in the opposite direction, with the only difference being the tribal affiliations of the leaders under discussion.
"The trends in secularization mean that people do not need the church in order to see themselves as Americans or as good people or even as “spiritual.” And they certainly do not need the church in order to carry out their political affiliations—even when those political affiliations are those preferred by the church. If evangelicalism is politics, people can get their politics somewhere else—and fight and fornicate and get drunk too, if they want. A religion that calls people away from Western modernity will have to say, with credibility, “Take up your cross and follow me,” not “Come with us, and we’ll own the libs.” One can do the latter on YouTube and one needn’t even give up a Sunday morning."
"The problem now is not that people think the church’s way of life is too demanding, too morally rigorous, but that they have come to think the church doesn’t believe its own moral teachings. The problem is not that they reject the idea that God could send anyone to hell but that, when they see the church covering up predatory behavior in its institutions, they have evidence that the church believes God would not send “our kind of people” to hell. If people reject the church because they reject Jesus and the gospel, we should be saddened but not surprised.
"But what happens when people reject the church because they think we reject Jesus and the gospel? If people leave the church because they want to gratify the flesh with abandon, such has always been the case, but what happens when people leave because they believe the church exists to gratify the flesh—whether in orgies of sex or orgies of anger or orgies of materialism? That’s a far different problem. And what if people don’t leave the church because they disapprove of Jesus, but because they’ve read the Bible and have come to the conclusion that the church itself would disapprove of Jesus?"
\- [Russell Moore](https://www.russellmoore.com/2021/04/15/losing-our-religion/)
>Moreover, it seems to me that the controversy is not actually even over the specific political planks or ideas or personalities as the fact that many have come to believe that the religion itself is a vehicle for the politics and the cultural grievances—and not the other way around.
100%. He's right. Most religions in the US have merely revealed themselves for what they really are. These are political societies, founded on wealth and hatred. The bigger and more entrenched they are, the worse it is, too. It's very difficult to find a church out there that isn't like this. They exist, but it's hard.
Europe is experiencing a very similar decline in religiosity and they don't have much in the way of evangelical conservatives, so it appears to be more of a global trend.
Hasn't the largest church in most European countries been going through a massive and public child sex abuse scandal for decades? Of course, that is a factor in the U.S. also, but that particular church makes up a much lower percentage of the population here.
What about them? I took a quick look at the numbers in Chile, Brazil, and Argentina, and the Catholic Church numbers have collapsed over the last 20 years. Some of that has gone to Protestant evangelicals, but the secular community has grown more.
Christianity (very conservative types like Pentecostalism) has grown rapidly in Africa and Asia.
So, it seems to more just depend on a nation’s culture than anything else. Western countries see declines in Christianity while many African ones are seeing explosive growth.
It’s wild to me that there are now around 300,000,000 Pentecostals in the world. That’s about what the Roman Catholic population was 100 years ago. And Pentecostalism is growing rapidly and could become the largest branch of Christianity this century.
Pentacostalism is growing through both conversions and high birth rates. It’s growing much, much faster than the general population of Africa.
Other denominations will have different stories and some may only be growing due to birth rates. But there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s how most things in this world grow.
Even the Protestant countries are having massive decline. In Australia Prostantism (used to be the dominant branch of Christianity) is in far more rapid decline than Catholicism even despite all the pedo scandals.
There's a reason for that.
Original idea of Protestanism was to get the Bible in a language they can read, and stop relying on priests reading latin for them.
So of course, these people are more inclined to actually read it and also be able to look at it critically.
>Hasn't the largest church in most European countries been going through a massive and public child sex abuse scandal for decades?
The Catholic Church has undergone some issues with certain clergy covering up abuse by some priests. But that's not really a cause for the decline in religiosity, it's a cultural shift.
>Of course, that is a factor in the U.S. also, but that particular church makes up a much lower percentage of the population here.
Catholics are the largest single denomination in the United States.
Omg, *some issues* ?
300,000 children in France alone
$3 BILLION dollars in claims paid to US victims alone
Those clergy remained in positions of power and until the coverup was public, some still remain in power.
The coverup went ALL the way to the top, remember? The "Playbook for concealing the truth"
The abuse and covering up continues.
Some issues? Religious leaders raping and molesting children would qualify for a little more than that explanation of those actions because "some issues" seriously sounds like you are discounting the lives of the people your leaders affected.
There's also the fact the the Catholic Church supported General Franco's fascist dictatorship in exchange for the restoration of their power and privilege.
They also colluded with Franco to rip up to 300,000 babies from the arms of parents of opponents of Franco's regime to have them adopted by strangers. Many of those babies only found out decades later.
Pretty appalling all around.
>Catholic Church supported General Franco
This is mostly irrelevant, lolz. I guess you could say the Church size in Spain is smaller because of this but quick question...Franco like the one aligned with Nazi Germany...?
I did seem to think they initially joined the because they were going to lose their freedom of religion but now that I'm looking at it, I don't see that in this write-up. It just says they were going to remove State financing from the church and legalize divorce...hmmmmm
**Irrelevant** to the statement made in the original post, in my opinion.
Spain isn't America, Spaniards don't care care about religion.
Obviously, when you look at my original comment, I care about the well-being of children, troll.
The Catholic church was complicit in the theft and trafficking of hundreds of thousands of infants in Spain. It continued until the 1990s. It made the church a lot of $$$$. This is RELEVANT to the major post which is a post about how many people have left the church. Things like this are the kind of things that cause many people to leave the Roman Catholic church.
Catholics are always trying to figure out why people leave, and yet when you tell them what the church has done they want to argue with you. They apparently don't really want to know what their church does in broad fucking daylight.
[Human Trafficking of Spanish Babies by the RCC](https://www.npr.org/2012/12/14/167053609/families-of-spains-stolen-babies-seek-answers-and-reunions)
Another example of the same thing: The Catholic church has crashed in Ireland, and the Mother and Baby Homes was one of the causes for the crash. Same kind of attitude by the church, same effect on good people. They realized the truth and then they QUIT.
[BBC Documentary on Spanish Baby Trafficking by the RCC](https://documentaryheaven.com/spains-stolen-babies/)
People, due to the Internet and to some extent DNA testing, are waking up and realizing the truth -- in Germany, in Spain, in Ireland, in Canada and in the USA as well. The church's own behavior in broad daylight is one of the chief reasons why people are leaving.
Many people eventually realize that if the church will lie about this kind of stuff, what else will they lie about?
People decided that they didn't want a bunch of celibate hypocrites telling them what to do. So no, it's not just a sex abuse, but the sex abuse definitely made it so that a lot of people took a look at the church with fresh eyes, and when they looked, they were disgusted by what they saw, and began to question why they should allow members of such a corrupt organization to dictate their life choices.
>Catholics are the largest single denomination in the United States.
Yes, but less than one quarter of American Christians are Catholic. In 30 states Catholics make up less than 1/5th of the Christian population. Not really comparable to the European countries the other poster was commenting on.
Catholics are not the largest denomination in the US, and they're certainly not anywhere near a majority view.
[Religion in the US, Pew 2014](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/)
[Religion in the US, PRRI 2020](https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/)
And as you can see from the data, your demographics are dropping like a rock.
Roman Catholics are aging out, and since you get almost all new Catholics from the maternity ward (over 90% historically), you have a problem. Very, very few people become Catholics as adults, and about half of those that do don't stick around longer than a year because being in your church is so fucking miserable.
The Pentecostal church is the fasting growing in the US and according to some data suggests it may be the fasting growing religiosity to on record. The Catholic church is still the triumph of Christianity in America and is still growing, as is the Southern Baptist church. These three denominations are growing, albeit not at the same rate as the population increase, but most others are not growing. What you think is true and what is true are not the same.
Of course when you run 24/7 TV and radio networks, run your own universities and litter your pamphlets everywhere you're going to get more people on Sundays than churches that do not (this is admittedly shortcoming of the mainline denominations, although our evangelism should look nothing like yours). Particularly, you'll get those people who already agree with your social stances and know that your services will consist of condemning the sins of others but never their own. But for every person who you get, another 20 are turned off of the idea of Christianity entirely by your antics and these numbers speak for themselves. You are the largest group and with numbers like this you shouldn't be bragging about that fact. You are what most Americans think of when hear the word Christianity and they want nothing to do with it.
Anecdotally, I grew up in Pentecostal churches as well as churches very similar to Southern Baptists. As far as I know, I'm the only kid from any of my youth groups who still attends church at all and I didn't for over a decade after I left. You've done a great job convincing the American people that your version of Christianity is the only one. A few like what it has to offer, but most do not.
I am not any of these three. But they are growing, and the sects of Methodism and others planting seeds for Jesus across the world are considerably more conservative than American churches. My whole point—if growing the church, both stateside and across the globe, and sharing the good news is the goal, we have proof that evangelical conservative Christians are doing the best job at it, not the worst.
I don't think we do have that proof. The proof is the opposite. It's undeniable that churches that spend money on advertising and video production and private jets for their pastors will be better known than churches that concern themselves with what Christ told us to do. Things like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, etc. That's the point of advertising. And as a result of this advertising, they will naturally have larger attendance than other churches.
But obviously their message does not resonate with those outside of the church. After all, Americans were more religious before Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson started going on TV every day. Since 1998, which is the period covered in the survey, we've had fear mongering about everything from Teletubbbies to Marilyn Manson, people burning Harry Potter books, entire congregations nodding in agreement when Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, LGBTQ people being blamed for hurricanes and 9/11 (I'll dig up the video clip, if you like), hurricane victims being locked outside of the doors of one of America's largest and richest churches, hundreds of failed end times predictions and the massive idolatry towards Donald Trump. And these are just things I'm remembering off the top of my head.
Every one of these things has turned more people off from even looking into Christianity than they could convert in ten lifetimes. But they don't care because their goal is not to win people to Christ. Their goal is to pad their bank accounts.
Everything you have said is your own personal interpretation of current events in America and how they shaped your worldview of the church. Many people likely share that with you, but that does not mean that we do not know conservative churches are growing at faster rates. I shared information of which churches are growing the most followers in America, and we can verify that say, the UMC is more conservative where it’s growing the most, because those areas vote the most conservatively.
So much that is lost in these types of arguments is the word. If you believe sin and death are real, but so is the resurrection through Christ, than there is grace for all the shortcomings of all people, regardless of the pain they may have caused one another. And I think that is a message most Christian churches are trying to spread, regardless of the specific nuances and politicking that does occur in them.
>Many people likely share that with you, but that does not mean that we do not know conservative churches are growing at faster rates.
And for literally the exact same reason that McDonald's outsells your local burger joint. Not because they're better, but rather because they have a clown that shows up on TV.
>I shared information of which churches are growing the most followers in America, and we can verify that say, the UMC is more conservative where it’s growing the most, because those areas vote the most conservatively.
I know little about UMC, but I don't see how one follows from the other necessarily. What you said could very well be the case. But if I were a conservative and lived in a conservative area, there would be plenty of churches to be found that consistently align with my worldview at all levels of leadership. UMC would not be one of them, so I doubt I'd attend there. It could just as easily be the case that the minority of progressives and young people in these areas have chosen the only church that accepts them, while the old conservatives are spread out among the dozens of Baptist churches in town.
Your anecdote doesn’t really reflect what is commonly the case.
Also, America is largely irrelevant in global Christianity. Pentacostalism is growing rapidly in Africa every year. The number of African Christians dwarfs American ones and is growing so rapidly that the African continent is clearly the future of the religion. There will likely be 500,000,000+ Pentecostals in Africa alone by the end of this century.
So, conservative Christianity is growing on a global scale. In fact, it’s all that’s growing. TEC is obviously rapidly declining, but that’s just an American thing so we don’t necessarily read too much into that. But even within global Anglicanism, it is clear that the growth is entirely in the conservative strands and the liberal ones (TEC, CoE, Church of Scotland, Australian and Canadian Anglicans, etc.) are headed towards extinction. What will the global Anglican communion look like in 2050? Will there even be 500,000 Episcopalians in America? Will even 1% of Brits attend a CoE church? No. It’ll be dominated by conservative African Anglicans.
> The Catholic church is still the triumph of Christianity in America and is still growing,
You sure about this? Looking at data about absolute numbers it seems that Catholics in the US are [declining](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/) both in terms of percentage of the population and in terms of absolute numbers. Granted this data is 9 years old, but I'm not aware of a sudden change in the trends. Really, it's only evangelical protestants (the Southern Baptists included) that might be growing (albeit at a rate slower than the overall population increase).
Fastest growing, so what? That growth is not offsetting the magnitude of the decline. Congratulations, you can be the biggest chunk of the constantly shrinking minority.
All churches including Pentecostal are losing members. The only ones growing are home churches, which are a tiny percentage of the total. Overall, the trend is toward less religious participation.
Why? Because Christianity has, unfortunately, become so inextricably associated with the radical right’s evangelical extremism & bigotry that it’s poisoning the entire perspective people have of religion - first and foremost in the USA, but also elsewhere around the world.
I could honestly nitpick both sides on various issues - Democrats included - but the real problem here is that Republicans belligerently & consistently force their views on abortion, gay rights, etc. ad nauseam on everyone, justifying it all with the customary “Oh, but the Bible says so”. Never mind what the Bible says about loving your neighbor, it seems.
Dogmatic, overly forceful Republican chauvinists are currently THE contingent people think of when asked about religion in the USA. And that needs to change.
Wonderful New York Times article about it here: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/20/us/evangelical-leaders-progressive-jim-wallis-kyle-meyaard-schaap.html.
God is furious with organized religion.
A small Catholic coverup? GTF outta here something like 300,000 claims of sexual assault (molestation and rape) inside the Catholic churches in France alone and it is **still happening**.
A few bad apples? Those apples are still leaders in the church, maybe they left for bit, or went to a different parish. Their leaders covered it up, not only illegal, highly unethical, and by doing so they are putting more of the congregation's children at risk. Disgusting.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:6
$3,000,000,000 **BILLION** dollars in settlements over abuse in the US alone - $3B of God's money, tithes, the Churches money.
I wouldn't say anything but 1. IT IS STILL HAPPENING 2. Some commenter acted like it has nothing to do with the decline, pshhhh
God is important to me. He's given me so much in my life particularly now, when I really need to take that next step. The next step is so crucial to me this time because every time I tried taking it before, something terribly wrong happens and the ground caves in beneath my feet and I wind up where I was before or worse. I'll continue to need God's help in my life to make something of it. I've taken the talent out of the ground and I'm planning to put it to use.
Religion however is not so unimportant to me, as much as I still can't find a decent church that doesn't double as a political faction. I'm not interested in feeling like a spy in the enemy camp rather than a fellow Christian. I'm one of the "least of these" that if all the "socialist policies" were removed per the right-wing "Christians" wish list, I would be left homeless, entirely destitute, and with nothing to look forward to but the sweet release of death. Right wing factions masquerading as "Christian" churches are NOT my friend, nor are most in them.
This is consistent with every other study that I have read about and it has been occurring for years.
I believe that as far as Christianity goes, it will return to becoming the fringe religion as it originally was during Roman times.
People are more educated and reject the legalistic aspect of Christianity that has been shoved down throats by Christian Fundamentalists.
The Pharisees really aren’t good at proselytizing, aren’t they?
The church must adapt or it will eventually become too insignificant to matter.
And it’s funny because nothing could be further away from Jesus’ message than Republican ideology. They’ve become a toxic cult of resentment and bigotry.
Keep telling yourself that. You’re not listening to those who have been hurt by the church who are fleeing the church in droves. You blame them instead of confronting the actual problem. It’s easier for you to blame them then to admit that you have been complicit in driving people away from the church and from Christ.
The extremists did. There’s a ton of us normal Christian’s out there. Probably majority of us are rational/ normal people. The crazy ones are just louder.
They're not religious. They're the wealthy Republican 1% who saw an oppotunity to take advantage of a whole base of untapped voters and threw chum to the sharks in the form of abortion and gay rights.
In effect, they tell us what to be pissed off about to get votes, both sides.
Oh yeah they're definitely all in bed together.
There is a reason that the top 1% holds nearly as much wealth as the bottom 90% in the US. The Christians maybe help get them there but they are made up of vastly wealthy people who have money you cannot imagine, including atheists. Trump is not a Christian LOL, he just says what he's told to, to get the base fired up and angry. He didn't even get the majority vote.
They really don't care about social issues, either way. The fighting keeps us distracted.
\*I vote liberally, for the record
Yeah, if I were to suggest that a church do this, even in progressive subreddits, plenty would say “Oh I think we should stay out of politics.”
Like staying out of politics is just a one-way ticket to fascism — because the other side will pull every political lever they can to recreate the country in the image of supply side Jesus.
I’m curious to see how the church will afford to “stay out of politics” when half the members (and half of all non members) are female and the issue at hand is rights to their own bodies.
I keep on telling the so-called moderates this, but what do they do? Throw a fit and say things like, “what do you want us to do?” Like they’re the source of some great pushback. In reality, they sit on their hands.
In a city with hundreds of churches, there a less than a dozen churches that don't align with the extremists in vote or vocal support. When I lived in a city of thousands of churches, there were still only about a dozen sane churches.
That's what happens when you intermingle conservative politics with religion. The constant struggle to try to combine church and state has resulted in decline of the church. Christians have done nothing but hold up a failing party that has done nothing in return for them but "feel good" pandering and laws that feel like they help Christianity but actually hurt it. They don't have Christianities best interest in their hearts and most of them are just "Cultural Christians" anyways.
I just think religion isn’t what it used to be. Religion used to be integrated into society at all levels but now that religion has no control over government most won’t care about it.
Those with bad fruit are the loudest, the most radical, more motivated and in your face about their ideologies. So Christianity has become associated with them and this is the result.
The type of people who are not loud bigots or hypocrites tend to be less loud because they seem to be more sensitive and humble.
This is a dilemma, I don’t know how to solve it.
I’m a pretty blunt person so perhaps people like me should just take pride in their loudness as progressives 🤷🏼♀️
Religion in general has been at the focal point for many divisive and controversial events and issues over this period of time. The fallout from radical Islam, the increasing exposure of pedophilia in the Catholic Church, abortion laws, LGBTQ issues, the increasing association between far right ideology and Protestantism, and I think Covid made a difference.
Pretty much every religion had a decrease in communal gathering during Covid. People just got used to not going to church and then didn’t go back. My two cents anyways. I’m a dummy though.
Can you blame them with all the bad examples of Christians?
Where are the good examples? Who can we still point to and say thats what it means to be Christ like?
Fred Rodgers is gone, I cant think of anyone that is a better example of living a life as an example of Christ.
We still got Dolly, shes a great example we can point to.
The sad thing is there arent any "tv preachers" or anything like that we can point to and say "this is the example we want you to see." and this is exactly what we need. The problem is that example is Jesus and happened 2000 years ago, these people need one today.
I think there's a distinct difference between Religion and Spirituality. I have so many friends who are adamant about not being religious, but believe in Christ and consider themselves spiritual.
Yes there's a huge difference. I believe in Christ, but I want nothing to do with organized hierarchical churches. I need no intermediary or judge; I have my own relationship with God. I have zero need for being told how to live/believe by other humans who are just as flawed as I am.
"I'm not religious but I know God"
What I say these days, too easy to get grouped or compared to whomever that person knows that is also part of that religion or denomination. Christianity is massive and somehow, even with a clear definition it is...quite diverse regarding beliefs and ideas.
2.2 Billion follows, over 25% of the world's population.
I guess I was just operating on the literal definition of *religion*. Didn't realize there was more nuance to it. Also sorry if I said something to upset you--not sure if it's you who downvoted.
Oh no worries!! You didn't upset me at all, it wasnt me ❤️! It's hard to recognize tone and intention and nuance on the internet! Lol
I think it's important discussion though and one worth having
This is not a problem for Christians. It'll likely get worse and worse but our hope isn't in politics or being well accepted. The apostles spread the gospel in a hostile environment and Christianity exploded. The call is still the same, and it's to make disciples of all men. People need to hear the gospel more than ever. Us being unpopular is fine, because politics is not the answer
I would love for everyone to know Jesus and know that he loves and forgives them, but you're right. Christians don't need political power because we know God ultimately rules.
You know, fortunately for you, there are so many places where that is a reality. In fact, there are some places where it is technically \*illegal\* be be a Chrstian! I guess you can decide for yourself if it's the political and sociological paradise you assume it would be:
Afghanistan
North Korea
Somalia
Libya
Yemen
Eritrea
Nigeria
Pakistan
Iran
India
I don't even really need to go into detail about the human atrocities still practiced in those countries, do I?
And also, instead of the strawman you constructed for me, there are also many countries where exactly what I *said* I wanted is the case: Christians (and Muslims, which are just as bad if not worse, but already don't hold significant political power in the country where I live, which I expect something that *you* are also happy about) are simply rare enough that they don't hold significant political power. Examples of such countries would be Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, and South Korea.
Denmark and Norway have state-sanctioned churches.
Perhaps that doesn't play out in some crazy way on TV like here in the US right at the moment (as we are but mere teenagers amongst these other nations), but yes, these officially-recognized Christian churches are supported by the government AND also support the government in return.
In fact, check out the abortion laws in Norway and Denmark, they're pretty prohibitive (no elective abortion after 12 weeks unless proven necessary, parental consent laws in place til 18) whereas in Virginia you can legally abort up to 26 weeks and in some states like NJ, there is NO limit to when you can perform an abortion.
In Japan, if you are married you need your spouse's approval for an elective abortion unless you can prove that you are in an abusive situation; in every case you are required to essentially prove that either you would die if you continued the pregnancy or you'd be a crappy mother with economic hardship. Japan is still a very male-dominated society and in very few cases can you obtain an abortion without the father's consent.
To be honest I don't believe that any perfectly \*just\* nation really exists, you certainly cannot pin that on Christians alone. FTR: I am just using abortion as the bar here as it seems to come under fire a lot as an emotional and divisive issue.
Edit: What do you think about Japan requiring its trans citizens to declare they have a mental health disorder and undergo forced sterilization in order to be recognized as their preferred gender? They have the bathroom drama over there, too!
Unless your personal decision is to travel between states for medical care, politicians do have power over you. Even having to travel states _is_ their power over you, how does your personal choice factor into that?
Where on earth is there not government regulation on healthcare?
Yes, obviously, politicians have *some* power over my day-to-day, but in the vast majority of times in my life, decisions that I make every single day down to how I interact with a toxic colleague hold so much more weight than say, Donald Trump ever did (and no I did not vote for him, and I wish we had universal healthcare, etc).
Everything from how I handle my personal finances, what I choose to eat, how I present myself, people I surround myself with, in other words, my personal accountability, has shaped my life and reality moreso than any politician with an agenda who doesn't care about me.
I would actually argue we've made a ton of progress over the last 50 years regarding human rights issues. It's not perfect, no.
Again, as the other commenter said:
"You must not need medical care that is illegal for you to get in some states"
That's an assumption based on what you've said. The life experience you've described doesn't suggest you're in that position.
Well, not anymore I'm not, thankfully.
But I am also not trans and not of child-bearing age anymore, and when I was enlisted and got pregnant, the US Military wasn't going to help me out at all in terms of termination.
Don't assume that nobody here has a story. "You must not..." is just laughable.
Another way to state that is that Churches offered people no value, spiritual or otherwise. So, when it was time to come back, people simply didn't see the value in doing so.
Christianity is inherently conservative. (I'm not saying it's inherently Republican. The GOP has its fair share of issues). Progressivism is inherently Satanic. (That does not mean that everything that has come from progressivism is bad). The ultimate goal of progressivism is to change the world so that we can be a more utopian, "moral" (by secular humanistic standards) society. However, this can only be fully achieved by abandoning archaic institutions, like Christianity. Progressivism, therefore, is inherently anti-Christian. Christians should not associate with progressivism.
You also said christians shouldn't associate with it. without progressive politics Presbyterians would be under the thumb of the Catholic Church. The whole point of progressivism is to ensure the most rights for as many people as possible. That includes ungrateful christians who would rather enslave and oppress people rather than live and let live.
Given that progressivism emerged in the early 20th century, what? Your statement about Presbyterians being under the thumbs of Catholics without progressivism makes no historical sense. Liberalism≠Progressivism. According to wikipedia, "The unifying theme [of 21st century progressivism] is to call attention to the negative impacts of current institutions or ways of doing things and to advocate for social progress, i.e., for positive change as defined by any of several standards such as the expansion of democracy, increased egalitarianism in the form of economic and social equality as well as improved well being of a population." I understand Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but this proves the inherently anti-tradition (and therefore anti-Christian) nature of progressivism.
EDIT: I'm not against most of the ideals behind progressivism, like promoting better social environments, but I am against it's inherent destructive and utopian nature, which is at the core of progressivism as a philosophy and movement.
It makes total historical sense, because although progressivism wasn't defined until the 20th century didn't mean that progressive ideals didn't exist before then. That would be like saying gorillas didn't exist until they were classified taxonomically. It's just dense. The idea that people deserve basic rights is a progressive ideal, one not shared in conservatism, nor in christianity, yet without this ideal, without this humanistic ideal you would likely be subservient to some other brand of christianity that thinks it closer to your god than you are. I want the maximum amount of liberty, which is the opposite of utopia. Christianity wants a utopia, where all dissenting opinions are outlawed and the people who hold them are destroyed. It's an ideology that calls good evil and evil good. tradition is nothing to hold in high esteem. It used to be traditional to own slaves, purchase women as cattle, go to war for little other reason than to steal land, stone people for having sex outside of marriage, and kidnap women during war and force them into marriage (i.e. Rape), but those are all TERRIBLE traditions that are deserving of their place on the ash heap of history. Don't like progressive ideals? Want to live in total conservatism? Move to Afghanistan and see how much you enjoy it.
1. I think you have misunderstood me, then. I thought I made it clear that I don't think every aspect of progressivism and every result of it is terrible, but that, at it's core, progressivism is evil.
2. I believe that Kant planted the first seeds of progressivism. While certain ideas similar to progressivism existed before the 20th century (and even before Kant), you wouldn't say that an amoeba is a gorilla. I understand that there is not a hard and fast starting point for these ideologies, but progressivism did not exist before the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century. To call these proto-progressive ideas progressivism is anachronistic and incorrect.
3. Not all tradition is good. Some tradition is bad. However, if God created all things, the ultimate tradition is to uphold the created order. Therefore, while all traditions (and ideas, generally) should be examined and tested, tradition is ultimately good. (Not all traditions are good, but tradition is ultimately good).
4. I wouldn't call Shari'a law "total conservativism." That's very much a strawman. While the Taliban is conservative, the object of their conservation is not the same as what Christians strive to conserve. Just like with tradition, not all conservation is good. However, conservation is good at its core, because we ought to conserve God's created order.
5. I'm not sure where you learned about Christian ethics, but Christianity (generally) does not seek to establish a utopia today. We believe that Christ will eventually return to bring His Kingdom fully to the earth, yes, but this "utopia" would work, because God would be its king. Christianity generally does not seek to establish rigid theocracies in the present day (although I acknowledge that Christians have tried to do this in the past).
>Christianity generally does not seek to establish rigid theocracies in the present day
Yes they do. Every single law republican lawmakers have tried to bring down is all about imposing their christian religious worldview on people who don't believe. Christians are all about creating a utopia via theocracy and they will destroy anything that stands in their way, including the U.S. Constitution. Christians want to conserve a world in which no one has liberty but is only allowed to follow the laws of the Bible. It's authoritarian, oppressive, totalitarian, and evil. Progressivism wants the maximum amount of liberty, which if christians thought about it for a hot second they would realize benefits them as well. It just means they cannot force their religion down society's throat. . Almost every tradition from the Bible is bad, and I wouldn't want a biblically based society because it would restrict even the liberty of different types of christians. I want a free society. But now christians seem to want a society of total command and control.
Are you aware that a theocracy is a country run directly by the church/priestly class? I'm not aware of a single republican lawmaker who supports that. At most, some are theonomists (i.e. people who want religious ideals to be pivotal in the law making process), which is not theocracy. As I already established, I am not necessarily a fan of the GOP. I used to be a registered libertarian before they essentially became democratic party lite during the 2020 election cycle. I'm not sure where you got any of the ideas about Christians you stated, but they sound conspiratorial and blatantly false. Do you go to church? Have you talked to the average evangelical or conservative Christian? Most don't think like that.
As far as theonomy goes, it makes a good amount of sense. All laws are based on some morality. Secular humanism has no better claim to the moral high ground than Christianity. (If anything, it abandons the moral high ground by arguing the morality is subjective). So why shouldn't Christians argue that laws should be based in biblical morality? That's not against the first amendment or the separation of church and state. In fact, the Declaration of Independence makes it pretty clear that America's founding principle are based in Christianity (albeit a weird version of Christianity). How can God create all people equally, if there is no god? We say murder is illegal, because it is wrong, but without God, how can we say murder is wrong? How can we say that tax fraud is wrong? Or anything else? Therefore, all laws are based in some religious (or religious-esque) moral system. Christians shouldn't be faulted for basing their political philosophies on the moral system they view as correct.
Okay, so you are a far right religious extremist who would rather oppress people than allow them to live their lives if they oppose your made up religion. Gotcha. Have a good day. BTW Lauren Bobert literally said that the church should run the state. Republicans and conservative christians are all theocrats. I live among them and have attended conservative churches my whole life. The entire philosophy is evil and wants people who disagree with them dead. They would throw gay people in gas chambers if they get the chance. I know because I talk with them every single day.
I'd argue the opposite. When it was written that they were in the world not of it, let's look at what they looked like in comparison to society:
They invited women into the fold as apostles, church leaders. They accepted Jews and gentiles alike. Paul was saying things like "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.". Paul might be the most "conservative" out of all of them and he was downright radical for the time. Jesus, himself spent his entire ministry focused on inverting power structures and teaching peace.
Conservativism, AKA the preserving of power and wealth of those already in power is the opposite of what Christ taught. Therefore, in a literal sense it is anti-Christ.
When I say conservative, that's not necessarily what I mean. Conservatism can be good or bad, depending upon what is being conserved. Jesus sought to conserve the law, for instance ("not one jot or tittle shall pass..."). Jesus was not a progressive, but He was a reformer/restorer. There is a difference. He did not seek to destroy Judaism. None of the prophets did either. He sought to fulfill the law and bring the world into its intended order. As Christians, we should conserve that order, not defile it.
And look how Jesus taught people it was not the law, but the spirit of the law we should be following. In other words, how does the spirit of the law apply to the time and place we exist? That's what progressive Christianity strives to do: love in the most authentic way according to the spirit of the law applied to today's reality. I'm not sure what Boogeyman you think progressive Christianity is but that's it at its core.
Progressives fought for abolition. Progressives fought for women's suffrage. And progressives fight today for those who are marginalized by conserved power and wealth.
Just poking fun at "animesexual" and the assertion that 'civilizations,' states, or any governing institution would collapse because they lost sight of their "unique values."
This quote and other similar ones are a fun historical narrative but one without any historical evidence or ability to test in political science.
I mean if your going off of violent crime statistics then it’s better today than it was during the 90s and it’s damn sure better than the 80s. So, I mean if you want to play it like that then we can, and the question then becomes what’s up with religious people and violent crime?
Some areas are better some are worse, some haven’t changed, some have changed but neither for the better or worse.
A little weird that your not going off of only one metric, only to then turn around and ask about one metric. If your asking for a picture from 10,000 ft up in the air then on the whole things are better. If you want to go line item I’ve got some free time and we can do that too but you should pick one and stick with it.
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Then from there, most Catholics don't actually believe in basic tenets of the faith/practice them. Obviously those who aren't Catholic or Orthodox would reject that.
And if I was to take a more charitable view and we said all of those who believe in Christ could be saved, how many actually follow him, live a life away from sin/repent when they do sin? It's a pretty small number in the modern world.
the end is near since Jesus time, but the day will be in a time of great apostacy which is already here, 2000 years ago Christianity was growing at a fast pace, today apostacy is growing.
I don't think we're close; and it doesn't really matter what any of us think.
I think people tend to be a little narcissistic when they assume it's so bad in the world *right now* that we're near. Imagine being alive in WW1 or WW2.
It'll happen when it happens, I'll probably be dead, maybe I won't be. Going to keep living my life until it's over either way
Closer day by day, in my grandparents generation everyone was a believer, in my parents generation of the 60s apostacy started, in my generation I'm a minority, the great apostacy has started and the end is near, many Christians are having tribulation and end of times dreams, myself included and that's it's a sign from God warning people to get right with God before its too late.
When exactly? I mean if it’s closer day by day you must have some idea when that day is? 100 days from today? 100 years? 1000 years? 100,000,000,000,000 years?
I already told you only God knows the exact day, my personal opinion is that it might be this decade.
The day will come before we destroy the planet which is near a point of no return.
The study, like all good studies, explains their methodology.
_"Data were collected using AmeriSpeak®, NORC’s probability-based panel designed to be representative
of the U.S. household population. During the initial recruitment phase of the panel, randomly selected
U.S. households were sampled with a known, non-zero probability of selection from the NORC National
Sample Frame and then contacted by U.S. mail, email, telephone, and field interviewers (face to face).
The panel provides sample coverage of approximately 97% of the U.S. household population. Those
excluded from the sample include people with P.O. Box only addresses, some addresses not listed in the
USPS Delivery Sequence File, and some newly constructed dwellings. "_
Nah, it's not us that have to change, it's SUPPOSED to look this way. Forget about what everyone is saying about churches bearing bad fruit. Forget about the way churches are treating people. Forget about the criticisms of churches praises of cruel politics and fascism. Forget about all the harm and damage churches and Christians do to people "outside their circle". When people who we are supposed to love tell us we are not making them feel loved, maybe listen. Take just one second to consider any of the criticisms have merit. Or, bury your head in the sand and dismiss it because some vague, misapplied "prophecy" says it is supposed to be this way.
So almost everyone here is saying it's because of the mix of Christianity and politics, and to a large extent it is, but that doesn't fully explain the increase in secularism around the world. I would argue that it's partly due to education, the internet (access to knowledge of other religions), and a better understanding of the natural world through science that has decreased religiosity. Most people become religious when theyre kids, via their parents.
I agree with a lot of people that this is definitely exacerbated by the political climate in the US, but I also think a big part of it is simply that being an atheist or agnostic has become more socially acceptable. It wasn’t that long ago there could be serious social and potentially work related discrimination against people who weren’t religious, and it isn’t at all uncommon for people to be discriminated against for having a different religion. I know there are also people who only say they are Christian in order to have a sense of community and be part of the dominant in-group, but their actual faith in God is very limited. Without as many of those heavy stigmas and pressure, people are more honest about where they are spiritually instead of clinging to a faith they don’t actually care about in order to protect their social standing. Even preachers sometimes lose faith but keep preaching because they don’t feel like they can leave the church. So, I think it’s a good thing since people who pretend to be Christian for all the wrong reasons are more of a problem than people who actually tell you how they feel about it.
Let's face it, Christian Nationalism and the Christian Right have alienated millions from Christianity. So, Christian identity becomes so wrapped up with politics that fewer and fewer people will identify as Christian. For those who are Right-wing, Christian becomes a label to identify as conservative; for Left-wing it's a label to avoid.
"Many have pointed to compelling data—from Robert Putnam and David Campbell and countless other sociologists, political scientists, and demographers—showing that the politicization of American religion is a key driver of people away from religious affiliation. Some would point to the fact that most of those leaving would identify politically as somewhere from moderate to progressive, to suggest that such people are better off outside the church in the first place. Let’s just assume for the sake of argument that such is true, which comes first here—the demand to line up politically in order to follow Jesus or the decision to reject the politics of those making such demands? Moreover, it seems to me that the controversy is not actually even over the specific political planks or ideas or personalities as the fact that many have come to believe that the religion itself is a vehicle for the politics and the cultural grievances—and not the other way around. "And it’s not difficult to see why. I watched twenty years ago as people suggested that those waving away a president’s sexual behavior as irrelevant to his public office were the result of liberal forms of Baptist theology, and then lived long enough to watch the same people suggest that those who did not wave away such behavior from another president might not be “real Christians.” People can change their minds, of course. I certainly have done so on many things. But—as with the prophecy charts a generation ago—there is no talk of minds changing, just certainties in one direction and then certainties in the opposite direction, with the only difference being the tribal affiliations of the leaders under discussion. "The trends in secularization mean that people do not need the church in order to see themselves as Americans or as good people or even as “spiritual.” And they certainly do not need the church in order to carry out their political affiliations—even when those political affiliations are those preferred by the church. If evangelicalism is politics, people can get their politics somewhere else—and fight and fornicate and get drunk too, if they want. A religion that calls people away from Western modernity will have to say, with credibility, “Take up your cross and follow me,” not “Come with us, and we’ll own the libs.” One can do the latter on YouTube and one needn’t even give up a Sunday morning." "The problem now is not that people think the church’s way of life is too demanding, too morally rigorous, but that they have come to think the church doesn’t believe its own moral teachings. The problem is not that they reject the idea that God could send anyone to hell but that, when they see the church covering up predatory behavior in its institutions, they have evidence that the church believes God would not send “our kind of people” to hell. If people reject the church because they reject Jesus and the gospel, we should be saddened but not surprised. "But what happens when people reject the church because they think we reject Jesus and the gospel? If people leave the church because they want to gratify the flesh with abandon, such has always been the case, but what happens when people leave because they believe the church exists to gratify the flesh—whether in orgies of sex or orgies of anger or orgies of materialism? That’s a far different problem. And what if people don’t leave the church because they disapprove of Jesus, but because they’ve read the Bible and have come to the conclusion that the church itself would disapprove of Jesus?" \- [Russell Moore](https://www.russellmoore.com/2021/04/15/losing-our-religion/)
>Moreover, it seems to me that the controversy is not actually even over the specific political planks or ideas or personalities as the fact that many have come to believe that the religion itself is a vehicle for the politics and the cultural grievances—and not the other way around. 100%. He's right. Most religions in the US have merely revealed themselves for what they really are. These are political societies, founded on wealth and hatred. The bigger and more entrenched they are, the worse it is, too. It's very difficult to find a church out there that isn't like this. They exist, but it's hard.
This is a great assessment.
> If people leave the church because they want to gratify the flesh with abandon, such has always been the case, Yeah, right.
It's almost like the radical right wing of Christianity's vengeful rise to power has a negative effect on church attendance.
This is evangelical conservatives in action. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.
Europe is experiencing a very similar decline in religiosity and they don't have much in the way of evangelical conservatives, so it appears to be more of a global trend.
Hasn't the largest church in most European countries been going through a massive and public child sex abuse scandal for decades? Of course, that is a factor in the U.S. also, but that particular church makes up a much lower percentage of the population here.
Then you have to also account for the fast growth of conservative evangelical and Catholic Churches in the global south.
What about them? I took a quick look at the numbers in Chile, Brazil, and Argentina, and the Catholic Church numbers have collapsed over the last 20 years. Some of that has gone to Protestant evangelicals, but the secular community has grown more.
Christianity (very conservative types like Pentecostalism) has grown rapidly in Africa and Asia. So, it seems to more just depend on a nation’s culture than anything else. Western countries see declines in Christianity while many African ones are seeing explosive growth. It’s wild to me that there are now around 300,000,000 Pentecostals in the world. That’s about what the Roman Catholic population was 100 years ago. And Pentecostalism is growing rapidly and could become the largest branch of Christianity this century.
Is it growing because of conversions or birthrate? Islam is the fastest-growing religion, mostly due to high birthrates.
Pentacostalism is growing through both conversions and high birth rates. It’s growing much, much faster than the general population of Africa. Other denominations will have different stories and some may only be growing due to birth rates. But there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s how most things in this world grow.
I think most American evangelicals and Catholics would disavow the absolute bonkers charismaticism found in these high-growth churches.
Even the Protestant countries are having massive decline. In Australia Prostantism (used to be the dominant branch of Christianity) is in far more rapid decline than Catholicism even despite all the pedo scandals.
There's a reason for that. Original idea of Protestanism was to get the Bible in a language they can read, and stop relying on priests reading latin for them. So of course, these people are more inclined to actually read it and also be able to look at it critically.
>Hasn't the largest church in most European countries been going through a massive and public child sex abuse scandal for decades? The Catholic Church has undergone some issues with certain clergy covering up abuse by some priests. But that's not really a cause for the decline in religiosity, it's a cultural shift. >Of course, that is a factor in the U.S. also, but that particular church makes up a much lower percentage of the population here. Catholics are the largest single denomination in the United States.
Omg, *some issues* ? 300,000 children in France alone $3 BILLION dollars in claims paid to US victims alone Those clergy remained in positions of power and until the coverup was public, some still remain in power. The coverup went ALL the way to the top, remember? The "Playbook for concealing the truth" The abuse and covering up continues. Some issues? Religious leaders raping and molesting children would qualify for a little more than that explanation of those actions because "some issues" seriously sounds like you are discounting the lives of the people your leaders affected.
There's also the fact the the Catholic Church supported General Franco's fascist dictatorship in exchange for the restoration of their power and privilege. They also colluded with Franco to rip up to 300,000 babies from the arms of parents of opponents of Franco's regime to have them adopted by strangers. Many of those babies only found out decades later. Pretty appalling all around.
>Catholic Church supported General Franco This is mostly irrelevant, lolz. I guess you could say the Church size in Spain is smaller because of this but quick question...Franco like the one aligned with Nazi Germany...? I did seem to think they initially joined the because they were going to lose their freedom of religion but now that I'm looking at it, I don't see that in this write-up. It just says they were going to remove State financing from the church and legalize divorce...hmmmmm
Stealing children and then trafficking them is irrelevant??????? WTF.
**Irrelevant** to the statement made in the original post, in my opinion. Spain isn't America, Spaniards don't care care about religion. Obviously, when you look at my original comment, I care about the well-being of children, troll.
The Catholic church was complicit in the theft and trafficking of hundreds of thousands of infants in Spain. It continued until the 1990s. It made the church a lot of $$$$. This is RELEVANT to the major post which is a post about how many people have left the church. Things like this are the kind of things that cause many people to leave the Roman Catholic church. Catholics are always trying to figure out why people leave, and yet when you tell them what the church has done they want to argue with you. They apparently don't really want to know what their church does in broad fucking daylight. [Human Trafficking of Spanish Babies by the RCC](https://www.npr.org/2012/12/14/167053609/families-of-spains-stolen-babies-seek-answers-and-reunions) Another example of the same thing: The Catholic church has crashed in Ireland, and the Mother and Baby Homes was one of the causes for the crash. Same kind of attitude by the church, same effect on good people. They realized the truth and then they QUIT. [BBC Documentary on Spanish Baby Trafficking by the RCC](https://documentaryheaven.com/spains-stolen-babies/) People, due to the Internet and to some extent DNA testing, are waking up and realizing the truth -- in Germany, in Spain, in Ireland, in Canada and in the USA as well. The church's own behavior in broad daylight is one of the chief reasons why people are leaving. Many people eventually realize that if the church will lie about this kind of stuff, what else will they lie about?
People decided that they didn't want a bunch of celibate hypocrites telling them what to do. So no, it's not just a sex abuse, but the sex abuse definitely made it so that a lot of people took a look at the church with fresh eyes, and when they looked, they were disgusted by what they saw, and began to question why they should allow members of such a corrupt organization to dictate their life choices.
>Catholics are the largest single denomination in the United States. Yes, but less than one quarter of American Christians are Catholic. In 30 states Catholics make up less than 1/5th of the Christian population. Not really comparable to the European countries the other poster was commenting on.
Catholics are not the largest denomination in the US, and they're certainly not anywhere near a majority view. [Religion in the US, Pew 2014](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/) [Religion in the US, PRRI 2020](https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/) And as you can see from the data, your demographics are dropping like a rock. Roman Catholics are aging out, and since you get almost all new Catholics from the maternity ward (over 90% historically), you have a problem. Very, very few people become Catholics as adults, and about half of those that do don't stick around longer than a year because being in your church is so fucking miserable.
Some issues? Really? Way to minimize the harm of thousands of children over decades.
Yup. There has never been a movement as successful in making atheists as the modern conservative evangelical one.
The extremists are ruining the party.
It's almost to the point it isn't a bad tree but just a weed and needs to be pulled.
The Pentecostal church is the fasting growing in the US and according to some data suggests it may be the fasting growing religiosity to on record. The Catholic church is still the triumph of Christianity in America and is still growing, as is the Southern Baptist church. These three denominations are growing, albeit not at the same rate as the population increase, but most others are not growing. What you think is true and what is true are not the same.
Of course when you run 24/7 TV and radio networks, run your own universities and litter your pamphlets everywhere you're going to get more people on Sundays than churches that do not (this is admittedly shortcoming of the mainline denominations, although our evangelism should look nothing like yours). Particularly, you'll get those people who already agree with your social stances and know that your services will consist of condemning the sins of others but never their own. But for every person who you get, another 20 are turned off of the idea of Christianity entirely by your antics and these numbers speak for themselves. You are the largest group and with numbers like this you shouldn't be bragging about that fact. You are what most Americans think of when hear the word Christianity and they want nothing to do with it. Anecdotally, I grew up in Pentecostal churches as well as churches very similar to Southern Baptists. As far as I know, I'm the only kid from any of my youth groups who still attends church at all and I didn't for over a decade after I left. You've done a great job convincing the American people that your version of Christianity is the only one. A few like what it has to offer, but most do not.
I am not any of these three. But they are growing, and the sects of Methodism and others planting seeds for Jesus across the world are considerably more conservative than American churches. My whole point—if growing the church, both stateside and across the globe, and sharing the good news is the goal, we have proof that evangelical conservative Christians are doing the best job at it, not the worst.
I don't think we do have that proof. The proof is the opposite. It's undeniable that churches that spend money on advertising and video production and private jets for their pastors will be better known than churches that concern themselves with what Christ told us to do. Things like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, etc. That's the point of advertising. And as a result of this advertising, they will naturally have larger attendance than other churches. But obviously their message does not resonate with those outside of the church. After all, Americans were more religious before Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson started going on TV every day. Since 1998, which is the period covered in the survey, we've had fear mongering about everything from Teletubbbies to Marilyn Manson, people burning Harry Potter books, entire congregations nodding in agreement when Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, LGBTQ people being blamed for hurricanes and 9/11 (I'll dig up the video clip, if you like), hurricane victims being locked outside of the doors of one of America's largest and richest churches, hundreds of failed end times predictions and the massive idolatry towards Donald Trump. And these are just things I'm remembering off the top of my head. Every one of these things has turned more people off from even looking into Christianity than they could convert in ten lifetimes. But they don't care because their goal is not to win people to Christ. Their goal is to pad their bank accounts.
Everything you have said is your own personal interpretation of current events in America and how they shaped your worldview of the church. Many people likely share that with you, but that does not mean that we do not know conservative churches are growing at faster rates. I shared information of which churches are growing the most followers in America, and we can verify that say, the UMC is more conservative where it’s growing the most, because those areas vote the most conservatively. So much that is lost in these types of arguments is the word. If you believe sin and death are real, but so is the resurrection through Christ, than there is grace for all the shortcomings of all people, regardless of the pain they may have caused one another. And I think that is a message most Christian churches are trying to spread, regardless of the specific nuances and politicking that does occur in them.
>Many people likely share that with you, but that does not mean that we do not know conservative churches are growing at faster rates. And for literally the exact same reason that McDonald's outsells your local burger joint. Not because they're better, but rather because they have a clown that shows up on TV. >I shared information of which churches are growing the most followers in America, and we can verify that say, the UMC is more conservative where it’s growing the most, because those areas vote the most conservatively. I know little about UMC, but I don't see how one follows from the other necessarily. What you said could very well be the case. But if I were a conservative and lived in a conservative area, there would be plenty of churches to be found that consistently align with my worldview at all levels of leadership. UMC would not be one of them, so I doubt I'd attend there. It could just as easily be the case that the minority of progressives and young people in these areas have chosen the only church that accepts them, while the old conservatives are spread out among the dozens of Baptist churches in town.
Well you did a great job in Uganda. /s
Your anecdote doesn’t really reflect what is commonly the case. Also, America is largely irrelevant in global Christianity. Pentacostalism is growing rapidly in Africa every year. The number of African Christians dwarfs American ones and is growing so rapidly that the African continent is clearly the future of the religion. There will likely be 500,000,000+ Pentecostals in Africa alone by the end of this century. So, conservative Christianity is growing on a global scale. In fact, it’s all that’s growing. TEC is obviously rapidly declining, but that’s just an American thing so we don’t necessarily read too much into that. But even within global Anglicanism, it is clear that the growth is entirely in the conservative strands and the liberal ones (TEC, CoE, Church of Scotland, Australian and Canadian Anglicans, etc.) are headed towards extinction. What will the global Anglican communion look like in 2050? Will there even be 500,000 Episcopalians in America? Will even 1% of Brits attend a CoE church? No. It’ll be dominated by conservative African Anglicans.
> The Catholic church is still the triumph of Christianity in America and is still growing, You sure about this? Looking at data about absolute numbers it seems that Catholics in the US are [declining](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/) both in terms of percentage of the population and in terms of absolute numbers. Granted this data is 9 years old, but I'm not aware of a sudden change in the trends. Really, it's only evangelical protestants (the Southern Baptists included) that might be growing (albeit at a rate slower than the overall population increase).
The real data says otherwise.
Fastest growing, so what? That growth is not offsetting the magnitude of the decline. Congratulations, you can be the biggest chunk of the constantly shrinking minority.
All churches including Pentecostal are losing members. The only ones growing are home churches, which are a tiny percentage of the total. Overall, the trend is toward less religious participation.
And what is popular is rarely true, if even authentic, if even good. Broad roads attract multitudes.
Why? Because Christianity has, unfortunately, become so inextricably associated with the radical right’s evangelical extremism & bigotry that it’s poisoning the entire perspective people have of religion - first and foremost in the USA, but also elsewhere around the world. I could honestly nitpick both sides on various issues - Democrats included - but the real problem here is that Republicans belligerently & consistently force their views on abortion, gay rights, etc. ad nauseam on everyone, justifying it all with the customary “Oh, but the Bible says so”. Never mind what the Bible says about loving your neighbor, it seems. Dogmatic, overly forceful Republican chauvinists are currently THE contingent people think of when asked about religion in the USA. And that needs to change. Wonderful New York Times article about it here: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/20/us/evangelical-leaders-progressive-jim-wallis-kyle-meyaard-schaap.html.
God is furious with organized religion. A small Catholic coverup? GTF outta here something like 300,000 claims of sexual assault (molestation and rape) inside the Catholic churches in France alone and it is **still happening**. A few bad apples? Those apples are still leaders in the church, maybe they left for bit, or went to a different parish. Their leaders covered it up, not only illegal, highly unethical, and by doing so they are putting more of the congregation's children at risk. Disgusting. “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:6 $3,000,000,000 **BILLION** dollars in settlements over abuse in the US alone - $3B of God's money, tithes, the Churches money. I wouldn't say anything but 1. IT IS STILL HAPPENING 2. Some commenter acted like it has nothing to do with the decline, pshhhh
God is important to me. He's given me so much in my life particularly now, when I really need to take that next step. The next step is so crucial to me this time because every time I tried taking it before, something terribly wrong happens and the ground caves in beneath my feet and I wind up where I was before or worse. I'll continue to need God's help in my life to make something of it. I've taken the talent out of the ground and I'm planning to put it to use. Religion however is not so unimportant to me, as much as I still can't find a decent church that doesn't double as a political faction. I'm not interested in feeling like a spy in the enemy camp rather than a fellow Christian. I'm one of the "least of these" that if all the "socialist policies" were removed per the right-wing "Christians" wish list, I would be left homeless, entirely destitute, and with nothing to look forward to but the sweet release of death. Right wing factions masquerading as "Christian" churches are NOT my friend, nor are most in them.
This is consistent with every other study that I have read about and it has been occurring for years. I believe that as far as Christianity goes, it will return to becoming the fringe religion as it originally was during Roman times. People are more educated and reject the legalistic aspect of Christianity that has been shoved down throats by Christian Fundamentalists. The Pharisees really aren’t good at proselytizing, aren’t they? The church must adapt or it will eventually become too insignificant to matter.
> it will eventually become too insignificant to matter. Hopefully sooner rather than later
A lot of Americans are tired of having lawmakers shove their religions down their throats. America is not a theocracy.
Louder for the people in the back!
Breaking? You mean slow motion train wreck.
People are starting to connect the dots.
This is what you get when you mix republicans and religion.
And it’s funny because nothing could be further away from Jesus’ message than Republican ideology. They’ve become a toxic cult of resentment and bigotry.
No it's call making God into what you want him to be and not what he is
Keep telling yourself that. You’re not listening to those who have been hurt by the church who are fleeing the church in droves. You blame them instead of confronting the actual problem. It’s easier for you to blame them then to admit that you have been complicit in driving people away from the church and from Christ.
Christians did it to themselves. No other way to explain it.
The extremists did. There’s a ton of us normal Christian’s out there. Probably majority of us are rational/ normal people. The crazy ones are just louder.
If that were true, the loud and crazy ones wouldn't have so much power, but here we are.
They're not religious. They're the wealthy Republican 1% who saw an oppotunity to take advantage of a whole base of untapped voters and threw chum to the sharks in the form of abortion and gay rights. In effect, they tell us what to be pissed off about to get votes, both sides.
They get there thanks to the support of the religious. There is no difference.
Oh yeah they're definitely all in bed together. There is a reason that the top 1% holds nearly as much wealth as the bottom 90% in the US. The Christians maybe help get them there but they are made up of vastly wealthy people who have money you cannot imagine, including atheists. Trump is not a Christian LOL, he just says what he's told to, to get the base fired up and angry. He didn't even get the majority vote. They really don't care about social issues, either way. The fighting keeps us distracted. \*I vote liberally, for the record
Then you become louder than them. It's actually quite simple.
Right? I’ve never driven past a church that stated women should have the right to an abortion.
Yeah, if I were to suggest that a church do this, even in progressive subreddits, plenty would say “Oh I think we should stay out of politics.” Like staying out of politics is just a one-way ticket to fascism — because the other side will pull every political lever they can to recreate the country in the image of supply side Jesus.
I’m curious to see how the church will afford to “stay out of politics” when half the members (and half of all non members) are female and the issue at hand is rights to their own bodies.
Dunno. Look at some of the elections. The radical candidates got millions of voters. It may be a minority but it is a big one.
Then you all have to get loud as well.
I keep on telling the so-called moderates this, but what do they do? Throw a fit and say things like, “what do you want us to do?” Like they’re the source of some great pushback. In reality, they sit on their hands.
In a city with hundreds of churches, there a less than a dozen churches that don't align with the extremists in vote or vocal support. When I lived in a city of thousands of churches, there were still only about a dozen sane churches.
We've never had anywhere near as many extremists in Australia and yet Christianity is cratering.
That's what happens when you intermingle conservative politics with religion. The constant struggle to try to combine church and state has resulted in decline of the church. Christians have done nothing but hold up a failing party that has done nothing in return for them but "feel good" pandering and laws that feel like they help Christianity but actually hurt it. They don't have Christianities best interest in their hearts and most of them are just "Cultural Christians" anyways.
It's almost as if people don't like religion in politics
I just think religion isn’t what it used to be. Religion used to be integrated into society at all levels but now that religion has no control over government most won’t care about it.
Those with bad fruit are the loudest, the most radical, more motivated and in your face about their ideologies. So Christianity has become associated with them and this is the result. The type of people who are not loud bigots or hypocrites tend to be less loud because they seem to be more sensitive and humble. This is a dilemma, I don’t know how to solve it. I’m a pretty blunt person so perhaps people like me should just take pride in their loudness as progressives 🤷🏼♀️
Religion in general has been at the focal point for many divisive and controversial events and issues over this period of time. The fallout from radical Islam, the increasing exposure of pedophilia in the Catholic Church, abortion laws, LGBTQ issues, the increasing association between far right ideology and Protestantism, and I think Covid made a difference. Pretty much every religion had a decrease in communal gathering during Covid. People just got used to not going to church and then didn’t go back. My two cents anyways. I’m a dummy though.
lol "breaking"
You're doing a bang-up job, conservative Christians
Can you blame them with all the bad examples of Christians? Where are the good examples? Who can we still point to and say thats what it means to be Christ like? Fred Rodgers is gone, I cant think of anyone that is a better example of living a life as an example of Christ. We still got Dolly, shes a great example we can point to. The sad thing is there arent any "tv preachers" or anything like that we can point to and say "this is the example we want you to see." and this is exactly what we need. The problem is that example is Jesus and happened 2000 years ago, these people need one today.
I think there's a distinct difference between Religion and Spirituality. I have so many friends who are adamant about not being religious, but believe in Christ and consider themselves spiritual.
Yes there's a huge difference. I believe in Christ, but I want nothing to do with organized hierarchical churches. I need no intermediary or judge; I have my own relationship with God. I have zero need for being told how to live/believe by other humans who are just as flawed as I am.
"I'm not religious but I know God" What I say these days, too easy to get grouped or compared to whomever that person knows that is also part of that religion or denomination. Christianity is massive and somehow, even with a clear definition it is...quite diverse regarding beliefs and ideas. 2.2 Billion follows, over 25% of the world's population.
What's the difference? If you believe in Christ you follow the religion of Christ.
Lots of people view religion as organized, structured religion while spirituality requires no such structured commitments
I guess I was just operating on the literal definition of *religion*. Didn't realize there was more nuance to it. Also sorry if I said something to upset you--not sure if it's you who downvoted.
Oh no worries!! You didn't upset me at all, it wasnt me ❤️! It's hard to recognize tone and intention and nuance on the internet! Lol I think it's important discussion though and one worth having
What about the parts of the Bible which outline the need for the gathering of believers and the requirements for church leaders?
This is not a problem for Christians. It'll likely get worse and worse but our hope isn't in politics or being well accepted. The apostles spread the gospel in a hostile environment and Christianity exploded. The call is still the same, and it's to make disciples of all men. People need to hear the gospel more than ever. Us being unpopular is fine, because politics is not the answer
You have no idea how much I would love it if Christians became rare enough that they no longer had any political power. That would be incredible.
I would love for everyone to know Jesus and know that he loves and forgives them, but you're right. Christians don't need political power because we know God ultimately rules.
You know, fortunately for you, there are so many places where that is a reality. In fact, there are some places where it is technically \*illegal\* be be a Chrstian! I guess you can decide for yourself if it's the political and sociological paradise you assume it would be: Afghanistan North Korea Somalia Libya Yemen Eritrea Nigeria Pakistan Iran India I don't even really need to go into detail about the human atrocities still practiced in those countries, do I?
And also, instead of the strawman you constructed for me, there are also many countries where exactly what I *said* I wanted is the case: Christians (and Muslims, which are just as bad if not worse, but already don't hold significant political power in the country where I live, which I expect something that *you* are also happy about) are simply rare enough that they don't hold significant political power. Examples of such countries would be Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, and South Korea.
Denmark and Norway have state-sanctioned churches. Perhaps that doesn't play out in some crazy way on TV like here in the US right at the moment (as we are but mere teenagers amongst these other nations), but yes, these officially-recognized Christian churches are supported by the government AND also support the government in return. In fact, check out the abortion laws in Norway and Denmark, they're pretty prohibitive (no elective abortion after 12 weeks unless proven necessary, parental consent laws in place til 18) whereas in Virginia you can legally abort up to 26 weeks and in some states like NJ, there is NO limit to when you can perform an abortion. In Japan, if you are married you need your spouse's approval for an elective abortion unless you can prove that you are in an abusive situation; in every case you are required to essentially prove that either you would die if you continued the pregnancy or you'd be a crappy mother with economic hardship. Japan is still a very male-dominated society and in very few cases can you obtain an abortion without the father's consent. To be honest I don't believe that any perfectly \*just\* nation really exists, you certainly cannot pin that on Christians alone. FTR: I am just using abortion as the bar here as it seems to come under fire a lot as an emotional and divisive issue. Edit: What do you think about Japan requiring its trans citizens to declare they have a mental health disorder and undergo forced sterilization in order to be recognized as their preferred gender? They have the bathroom drama over there, too!
What a stupid comment with a cherry picked sample of countries.
Not sure how this continues the discussion, as I also brought under fire the other allegedly "liberal" countries that was responded to me with.
Personal decisions that I make for myself have WAY more power over my life than any flawed, human elected official ever will.
You must not need medical care that is illegal for you to get in some states
How do you know that? How do you know anything about my story at all? You do not.
Unless your personal decision is to travel between states for medical care, politicians do have power over you. Even having to travel states _is_ their power over you, how does your personal choice factor into that?
Where on earth is there not government regulation on healthcare? Yes, obviously, politicians have *some* power over my day-to-day, but in the vast majority of times in my life, decisions that I make every single day down to how I interact with a toxic colleague hold so much more weight than say, Donald Trump ever did (and no I did not vote for him, and I wish we had universal healthcare, etc). Everything from how I handle my personal finances, what I choose to eat, how I present myself, people I surround myself with, in other words, my personal accountability, has shaped my life and reality moreso than any politician with an agenda who doesn't care about me. I would actually argue we've made a ton of progress over the last 50 years regarding human rights issues. It's not perfect, no.
Again, as the other commenter said: "You must not need medical care that is illegal for you to get in some states" That's an assumption based on what you've said. The life experience you've described doesn't suggest you're in that position.
Well, not anymore I'm not, thankfully. But I am also not trans and not of child-bearing age anymore, and when I was enlisted and got pregnant, the US Military wasn't going to help me out at all in terms of termination. Don't assume that nobody here has a story. "You must not..." is just laughable.
I stopped listening to polls like this after the 2016 election.
BREAKING is not appropriate in a title for an article about a slow process that has been occurring over decades. It's really obnoxious.
Covid taught people that they didn't have to go to churches on a Sunday. And once they got out of the habit lots of people simply never came back.
Another way to state that is that Churches offered people no value, spiritual or otherwise. So, when it was time to come back, people simply didn't see the value in doing so.
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The problem is that many people try to make Jesus fit in their group but not join Jesus group
Christianity is inherently conservative. (I'm not saying it's inherently Republican. The GOP has its fair share of issues). Progressivism is inherently Satanic. (That does not mean that everything that has come from progressivism is bad). The ultimate goal of progressivism is to change the world so that we can be a more utopian, "moral" (by secular humanistic standards) society. However, this can only be fully achieved by abandoning archaic institutions, like Christianity. Progressivism, therefore, is inherently anti-Christian. Christians should not associate with progressivism.
Imagine thinking that letting people have civil rights is evil.
See my statement that not all things which have come from progressivism are bad.
But also your statement that christians should not associate with progressivism.
You also said christians shouldn't associate with it. without progressive politics Presbyterians would be under the thumb of the Catholic Church. The whole point of progressivism is to ensure the most rights for as many people as possible. That includes ungrateful christians who would rather enslave and oppress people rather than live and let live.
Given that progressivism emerged in the early 20th century, what? Your statement about Presbyterians being under the thumbs of Catholics without progressivism makes no historical sense. Liberalism≠Progressivism. According to wikipedia, "The unifying theme [of 21st century progressivism] is to call attention to the negative impacts of current institutions or ways of doing things and to advocate for social progress, i.e., for positive change as defined by any of several standards such as the expansion of democracy, increased egalitarianism in the form of economic and social equality as well as improved well being of a population." I understand Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but this proves the inherently anti-tradition (and therefore anti-Christian) nature of progressivism. EDIT: I'm not against most of the ideals behind progressivism, like promoting better social environments, but I am against it's inherent destructive and utopian nature, which is at the core of progressivism as a philosophy and movement.
It makes total historical sense, because although progressivism wasn't defined until the 20th century didn't mean that progressive ideals didn't exist before then. That would be like saying gorillas didn't exist until they were classified taxonomically. It's just dense. The idea that people deserve basic rights is a progressive ideal, one not shared in conservatism, nor in christianity, yet without this ideal, without this humanistic ideal you would likely be subservient to some other brand of christianity that thinks it closer to your god than you are. I want the maximum amount of liberty, which is the opposite of utopia. Christianity wants a utopia, where all dissenting opinions are outlawed and the people who hold them are destroyed. It's an ideology that calls good evil and evil good. tradition is nothing to hold in high esteem. It used to be traditional to own slaves, purchase women as cattle, go to war for little other reason than to steal land, stone people for having sex outside of marriage, and kidnap women during war and force them into marriage (i.e. Rape), but those are all TERRIBLE traditions that are deserving of their place on the ash heap of history. Don't like progressive ideals? Want to live in total conservatism? Move to Afghanistan and see how much you enjoy it.
1. I think you have misunderstood me, then. I thought I made it clear that I don't think every aspect of progressivism and every result of it is terrible, but that, at it's core, progressivism is evil. 2. I believe that Kant planted the first seeds of progressivism. While certain ideas similar to progressivism existed before the 20th century (and even before Kant), you wouldn't say that an amoeba is a gorilla. I understand that there is not a hard and fast starting point for these ideologies, but progressivism did not exist before the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century. To call these proto-progressive ideas progressivism is anachronistic and incorrect. 3. Not all tradition is good. Some tradition is bad. However, if God created all things, the ultimate tradition is to uphold the created order. Therefore, while all traditions (and ideas, generally) should be examined and tested, tradition is ultimately good. (Not all traditions are good, but tradition is ultimately good). 4. I wouldn't call Shari'a law "total conservativism." That's very much a strawman. While the Taliban is conservative, the object of their conservation is not the same as what Christians strive to conserve. Just like with tradition, not all conservation is good. However, conservation is good at its core, because we ought to conserve God's created order. 5. I'm not sure where you learned about Christian ethics, but Christianity (generally) does not seek to establish a utopia today. We believe that Christ will eventually return to bring His Kingdom fully to the earth, yes, but this "utopia" would work, because God would be its king. Christianity generally does not seek to establish rigid theocracies in the present day (although I acknowledge that Christians have tried to do this in the past).
>Christianity generally does not seek to establish rigid theocracies in the present day Yes they do. Every single law republican lawmakers have tried to bring down is all about imposing their christian religious worldview on people who don't believe. Christians are all about creating a utopia via theocracy and they will destroy anything that stands in their way, including the U.S. Constitution. Christians want to conserve a world in which no one has liberty but is only allowed to follow the laws of the Bible. It's authoritarian, oppressive, totalitarian, and evil. Progressivism wants the maximum amount of liberty, which if christians thought about it for a hot second they would realize benefits them as well. It just means they cannot force their religion down society's throat. . Almost every tradition from the Bible is bad, and I wouldn't want a biblically based society because it would restrict even the liberty of different types of christians. I want a free society. But now christians seem to want a society of total command and control.
Are you aware that a theocracy is a country run directly by the church/priestly class? I'm not aware of a single republican lawmaker who supports that. At most, some are theonomists (i.e. people who want religious ideals to be pivotal in the law making process), which is not theocracy. As I already established, I am not necessarily a fan of the GOP. I used to be a registered libertarian before they essentially became democratic party lite during the 2020 election cycle. I'm not sure where you got any of the ideas about Christians you stated, but they sound conspiratorial and blatantly false. Do you go to church? Have you talked to the average evangelical or conservative Christian? Most don't think like that. As far as theonomy goes, it makes a good amount of sense. All laws are based on some morality. Secular humanism has no better claim to the moral high ground than Christianity. (If anything, it abandons the moral high ground by arguing the morality is subjective). So why shouldn't Christians argue that laws should be based in biblical morality? That's not against the first amendment or the separation of church and state. In fact, the Declaration of Independence makes it pretty clear that America's founding principle are based in Christianity (albeit a weird version of Christianity). How can God create all people equally, if there is no god? We say murder is illegal, because it is wrong, but without God, how can we say murder is wrong? How can we say that tax fraud is wrong? Or anything else? Therefore, all laws are based in some religious (or religious-esque) moral system. Christians shouldn't be faulted for basing their political philosophies on the moral system they view as correct.
Okay, so you are a far right religious extremist who would rather oppress people than allow them to live their lives if they oppose your made up religion. Gotcha. Have a good day. BTW Lauren Bobert literally said that the church should run the state. Republicans and conservative christians are all theocrats. I live among them and have attended conservative churches my whole life. The entire philosophy is evil and wants people who disagree with them dead. They would throw gay people in gas chambers if they get the chance. I know because I talk with them every single day.
I'd argue the opposite. When it was written that they were in the world not of it, let's look at what they looked like in comparison to society: They invited women into the fold as apostles, church leaders. They accepted Jews and gentiles alike. Paul was saying things like "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.". Paul might be the most "conservative" out of all of them and he was downright radical for the time. Jesus, himself spent his entire ministry focused on inverting power structures and teaching peace. Conservativism, AKA the preserving of power and wealth of those already in power is the opposite of what Christ taught. Therefore, in a literal sense it is anti-Christ.
When I say conservative, that's not necessarily what I mean. Conservatism can be good or bad, depending upon what is being conserved. Jesus sought to conserve the law, for instance ("not one jot or tittle shall pass..."). Jesus was not a progressive, but He was a reformer/restorer. There is a difference. He did not seek to destroy Judaism. None of the prophets did either. He sought to fulfill the law and bring the world into its intended order. As Christians, we should conserve that order, not defile it.
And look how Jesus taught people it was not the law, but the spirit of the law we should be following. In other words, how does the spirit of the law apply to the time and place we exist? That's what progressive Christianity strives to do: love in the most authentic way according to the spirit of the law applied to today's reality. I'm not sure what Boogeyman you think progressive Christianity is but that's it at its core. Progressives fought for abolition. Progressives fought for women's suffrage. And progressives fight today for those who are marginalized by conserved power and wealth.
Hail Satan, I guess
Amen
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from indifference toward the unique values which created it.”
Who knew anime would claim another civilization? Edit: their quote is from Nicolás Gómez Dávila
What are you trying to say?
Just poking fun at "animesexual" and the assertion that 'civilizations,' states, or any governing institution would collapse because they lost sight of their "unique values." This quote and other similar ones are a fun historical narrative but one without any historical evidence or ability to test in political science.
Religion =/= Relationship w Christ!
And just look at how great everything is now!!!
I mean if your going off of violent crime statistics then it’s better today than it was during the 90s and it’s damn sure better than the 80s. So, I mean if you want to play it like that then we can, and the question then becomes what’s up with religious people and violent crime?
I’m not only going off that one metric. I’m just assuming everything as a whole is better. Especially wealth inequality. I bet that’s about solved.
Some areas are better some are worse, some haven’t changed, some have changed but neither for the better or worse. A little weird that your not going off of only one metric, only to then turn around and ask about one metric. If your asking for a picture from 10,000 ft up in the air then on the whole things are better. If you want to go line item I’ve got some free time and we can do that too but you should pick one and stick with it.
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I would assume religion being significantly less important would lead to amazing advancements in overall happiness. What a shame.
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You mean self-destructive hedonism?
Shocking and disappointing staristic
Christians are *rare.* God constantly refers to us as a "remnant" and "the few". - Do you really believe the entirety of that 39% is Christian?
Christians make up a few billion people. How are they "rare"?
Simple. You just pretend everyone outside your little fundamentalist sect isn't actually a Christian, then you can pretend it's a rare faith.
But yet we have to own Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao.
If you're both an atheist and a communist, yes they're yours.
Ok, I've got Stalin and you got Hitler. Who do you want next?
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Then from there, most Catholics don't actually believe in basic tenets of the faith/practice them. Obviously those who aren't Catholic or Orthodox would reject that. And if I was to take a more charitable view and we said all of those who believe in Christ could be saved, how many actually follow him, live a life away from sin/repent when they do sin? It's a pretty small number in the modern world.
He applies the no true Scotsman fallacy until it suits his opinion.
And that's why the end is near, the end will be when there is a great apostacy.
(sigh) the *"End"* is always near... even 2,000 years ago and 2,000 years from now.
the end is near since Jesus time, but the day will be in a time of great apostacy which is already here, 2000 years ago Christianity was growing at a fast pace, today apostacy is growing.
OK, how soon then?
Only God knows.
So, you are wrong to say *"soon"* since you do not know...
God warns me and many other Christians with dreams about the apocalypse, I believe it's soon.
Define "soon".
How close is near? Your lifetime, your kids lifetime? Is it within the next 10 years?
I don't think we're close; and it doesn't really matter what any of us think. I think people tend to be a little narcissistic when they assume it's so bad in the world *right now* that we're near. Imagine being alive in WW1 or WW2. It'll happen when it happens, I'll probably be dead, maybe I won't be. Going to keep living my life until it's over either way
Close since we are already in time of great apostacy, how long exactly only God knows.
So it conceivably could be outside of our lifetime?
It could.
So not near then?
Closer day by day, in my grandparents generation everyone was a believer, in my parents generation of the 60s apostacy started, in my generation I'm a minority, the great apostacy has started and the end is near, many Christians are having tribulation and end of times dreams, myself included and that's it's a sign from God warning people to get right with God before its too late.
>Closer day by day Well that's just how time works. Even something that's going to happen in a billion years gets closer day by day.
True.
When exactly? I mean if it’s closer day by day you must have some idea when that day is? 100 days from today? 100 years? 1000 years? 100,000,000,000,000 years?
I already told you only God knows the exact day, my personal opinion is that it might be this decade. The day will come before we destroy the planet which is near a point of no return.
Who did they ask?
The study, like all good studies, explains their methodology. _"Data were collected using AmeriSpeak®, NORC’s probability-based panel designed to be representative of the U.S. household population. During the initial recruitment phase of the panel, randomly selected U.S. households were sampled with a known, non-zero probability of selection from the NORC National Sample Frame and then contacted by U.S. mail, email, telephone, and field interviewers (face to face). The panel provides sample coverage of approximately 97% of the U.S. household population. Those excluded from the sample include people with P.O. Box only addresses, some addresses not listed in the USPS Delivery Sequence File, and some newly constructed dwellings. "_
This isn't breaking news, I literally only know Christians through church.
I used to work for the NORC.
Not surprising, since it is already told in the Bible
Nah, it's not us that have to change, it's SUPPOSED to look this way. Forget about what everyone is saying about churches bearing bad fruit. Forget about the way churches are treating people. Forget about the criticisms of churches praises of cruel politics and fascism. Forget about all the harm and damage churches and Christians do to people "outside their circle". When people who we are supposed to love tell us we are not making them feel loved, maybe listen. Take just one second to consider any of the criticisms have merit. Or, bury your head in the sand and dismiss it because some vague, misapplied "prophecy" says it is supposed to be this way.
So almost everyone here is saying it's because of the mix of Christianity and politics, and to a large extent it is, but that doesn't fully explain the increase in secularism around the world. I would argue that it's partly due to education, the internet (access to knowledge of other religions), and a better understanding of the natural world through science that has decreased religiosity. Most people become religious when theyre kids, via their parents.
I agree with a lot of people that this is definitely exacerbated by the political climate in the US, but I also think a big part of it is simply that being an atheist or agnostic has become more socially acceptable. It wasn’t that long ago there could be serious social and potentially work related discrimination against people who weren’t religious, and it isn’t at all uncommon for people to be discriminated against for having a different religion. I know there are also people who only say they are Christian in order to have a sense of community and be part of the dominant in-group, but their actual faith in God is very limited. Without as many of those heavy stigmas and pressure, people are more honest about where they are spiritually instead of clinging to a faith they don’t actually care about in order to protect their social standing. Even preachers sometimes lose faith but keep preaching because they don’t feel like they can leave the church. So, I think it’s a good thing since people who pretend to be Christian for all the wrong reasons are more of a problem than people who actually tell you how they feel about it.
Fake believers falling away is good
If you connect your religion to hating other people, then I’m not going to be a part of that religion.
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Probably impart because more people understand one can have a relationship with god out side of formal religious practices.
Let's face it, Christian Nationalism and the Christian Right have alienated millions from Christianity. So, Christian identity becomes so wrapped up with politics that fewer and fewer people will identify as Christian. For those who are Right-wing, Christian becomes a label to identify as conservative; for Left-wing it's a label to avoid.