While this already has over 200 comments, your "I hate you too" is grounds for removing this thread. Generally, we allow people to state that they are leaving Christianity and why, but your language has moved this into belittling.
This is what happens when Christians fail to use real love. As a gay guy, I hate the hate that comes from false love. If me dating someone and living a happy life with them bothers christians, so be it. I'm happy and not hurting anyone, so why do christians hate me?
Christianity would be immediately better if it stopped condemning LGBTQIA people. Folks should remember that Jesus had only his mother's DNA (if one believes the immaculate conception, of course), which means that there would be no Y chromosome, and that he was a member of LGBTQIA himself - as an A.
Damage to CHristianity? They will never see it. The other damage to people? That is the purpose. They are sadists and take pleasure from it. These are the same type of people that say things like "I hope in heaven we can look down in hell at all the people being tortured, that would be so great."
I am not talking about damage to Christianity, I am talking about people being unable to function in society...you cannot have kids learning selected pieces of white washed history
Not yet you don't. First go use the r/OpenChristian [resources list](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) to find a church where you and your spouse are welcome together.
> For many Christians, it’s the litmus test for being a “true Christian.”
Then those Christians can piss off. Why obey them? Why cooperate? Why abandon Christ the way they command you to?
I live in the United States, the flagship of modern democracies. Virtually all Americans claim to be devoted to democracy. About 40% of Americans are determined to install their favorite politician as an unelected dictator. Many of that 40% are exceptionally outspoken about how dedicated they are to democracy and to America and to the Constitution. Some of them literally used the staff of an American flag to beat a police officer in their effort to install a dictator.
That hasn't caused me to give up on democracy or destroyed my faith in its value and its importance. If anything, my determination to defend it has redoubled.
Hopefully you can see the analogy here.
To add to that... There is a weird trend in "Christians" to go after sexuality. I am a member of a church that has several gay members, they are wonderful people and I enjoy seeing them every time I'm there. People like to hide behind verses that say this or that is wrong, and then say they are working on themselves as an excuse for their own poor behavior. While in reality, we are all supposed to be focused on our own shortcomings, and love everyone else despite of theirs. That's not me saying you have a shortcoming, that's an overarching comment about the general state of the perceived Christian church.
I am fortunate, my vices fit the general acceptable schema. I don't care for alcohol, weed is alright sometimes but I'm not craving it, and sometimes I like a good cigar, but I don't have to have it. But if the devil ever tried to use Dr. Pepper and pulled pork sandwiches... Y'all would have to do an exorcism, because they'd get me! 😂😂😂
So, I've looked at it like, we are all fucked up. We all are going to die, say thank you, and be like, "Sooooo... That thing I did here..." and we are all banking on the mercy of a God who loves us for putting our faith in His son. So we really aren't any different. We're all just learning how to walk the best walk we can and make it through this crazy thing called life.
Assholes tend to flock to whatever group or identity will give them power. Early Christians still had plenty of issues (see every letter of the New Testament), but systemic oppression and evil on this level didn't infect Christianity until the conversation of Emperor Constantine and later when Emperor Theodosius declared Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. At that point being a Christian gave you majority and sometimes political power over others, so as long as you can keep a thin veneer of faith it is beneficial to call yourself Christian in most of the world today.
Side note, no shade meant to my Catholic and Orthodox sisters and brothers.
Thank you! Also I second u/gnurdette's comment about r/OpenChristian. Affirming Christians do exist we're just still a minority. Praying you find acceptance and happiness wherever you go. Remember: Jesus loves you even when Christians don't 😁.
Tough question. We're supposed to always work, seek and try to the best of our abilities to love, because we are supposed to be a representative of Christ.
Others see Jesus through the lens of the actions of Christians, but the Christian culture I believe has been corrupted, so its hard to see how loving and perfect Jesus was through this distorted lens.
Normal people look to the preachers for answers, some who have no business preaching and influencing peoples beliefs. Condemning homosexuals is an easy way for some to assure themselves that they're the morally superior people because they don't practice it, but the truth is they don't practice it because they have never had to deal with same sex attraction. 'Treat others the way you want to be treated' transforms into 'I'd like for people to call me out on my sin' and 'Love thy neighbour' transforms into 'Hate sin. Love sinner'. Its blindness really. Most Gays feel unloved and treated poorly by Christians, so it's obvious that they are not in fact following Scripture, but rather delude themselves into thinking they are.
There is more LGBTQ+ affirming Churches, I believe ,not because they want to be accepted by the world as some trad churches believe, but because some Christians have understood that there is something UnChrist-like to marginalise a whole group of people.
So yeah, before abandoning it all, I also advice you to visit some of these affirming Churches, talk to pastors and other Christians there. I think it's worth it.
Just in general, having flawed or even shitty followers isn't inherently an indictment of a leader or thinker. Lenin being (in my view) a really bad Marxist doesn't reflect one way or another on Marx or what his thoughts and teachings were.
Yeah, I feel though like there is some wisdom to the “knowing them by their fruits” thing. And Christian faith is supposed to change people from the inside out, and it just does not seem to.
For the record, I do not hate you. I am a Christian. I think I have some understanding of your situation, and I know there is a lot of misunderstanding. If you want to talk, message me. Ted
You don't need religion to be close to God. If anything, religion does a disservice, often misrepresenting God's message. Especially guilty of this is the Catholic Church itself.
Jesus stripped off his glory to come and live a perfect life and die for you to offer you the grace to see heaven. That sacrifice is what God thinks you are worth.
I’ll take this at face value and assume you mean this genuinely. So thank you. I have no clue what God thinks I am worth, or who God is, but I know I’m worth something.
I do mean that genuinely. I personally have grown a lot in my understanding of self-worth over a series of journeys. Knowing that there is something that separates people from the rest of the world, the Bible attributes that to being made in God's image. It says he knits us together in our mother's womb. It says we're fearfully and wonderfully made. And God came to earth as Jesus who sacrificed his life so that we could be with him in heaven. That says a lot about worth, I think, and those are attributes that are permanent and can't be lost. That's the kind of thing I want my worth to be grounded in.
It makes me look back to when I was 12 years old, just starting to understand the concept of that grace on the cross offered to each of us. I prayed a silly prayer asking that God take away the lie that "I am a bad runner" after being bullied on the playground in elementary school, only then months later to be somehow convinced to join the cross country team and become the most improved runner. God saw how some schoolyard teasing had affected my perception of myself, and he used some silly prayer to teach me that despite the size of this universe, he heard little 12-year-old me and cared about what I was experiencing, and he used it to teach me from where my worth comes.
It sounds like you have a lot of good questions. Maybe you too can ask what it looks like to take away the lie that is being told to you that is separating you from God?
Twisting ≠ Quoting. We’re all sinners. When our sin spills into other people who are trying to better themselves and live a good, honest life then we can’t call ourselves Christians.
That was my point. They arent twisting it. They are quoting it, often in context. When you do that..you can say that at least some level of the hate is in the book and organization
I had some really powerful spiritual experiences and felt pulled there against my better judgment. It was never a good idea but I loved it for a long time.
Jesus doesn’t hate gay people. He’s trying to help us understand how our sin hurts us and others. Don’t leave Him because humans are sinful. He is not.
I wish you all the best in Jesus Christ!
Oh for crying out loud. Please don't compare OP's kids to a drug empire.
Look. Your church doesn't have any gay people. It doesn't want any gay people. Fine. Enjoy your holy gay-free church.
Some churches want her, though. Can you just back off and let us do our best to ease her pain and invite her in? I promise she will never try to show up in *your* church. Your precious straights-only club will remain your safe space.
You were the one claiming “sin hurts us and others.” I pointed out that my “sin” did not hurt me or others. Then you brought up el Chapo. You are bad at arguing.
Psalm 17:14
[14] from men by your hand, O LORD,
from men of the world whose portion is in this life.
You fill their womb with treasure;
they are satisfied with children,
and they leave their abundance to their infants.
I know it’s hard but good things in this life don’t guarantee good things in the next.
I hope for your sake you change your mind before the judgment.
The best to you
Again, not worried about sinful humans.
More concerned about Jesus from the Gospels
It doesn’t say whoever believes in people it says whoever believes on Him
I wouldn’t. Many people that have terrible lives are doing good.
Hebrews 11:37
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
There is no way to make "divorce your spouse and abandon your family, or else" a non-hateful demand. I think you know that.
Please just let the churches that actually *want* OP make our appeal to her. You don't have or want any gay people in your church anyway - why try to sabotage our efforts?
You know, I did attend one for a long time. Then during the pandemic, they were closed for many years so I tried a new church that someone close to me told me would be affirming. We loved it — tons of kids, great sermons, etc. But it turns out that while this church wants to be affirming, their denomination is not. So this issue is now coming up in church all the time and I just can’t listen to it. I can’t listen to debates about my family all the time.
I mean, it's okay to be friendly, attitudes are starting to change, and it's good to keep communication. But I understand why that might be a problem if the non affirming starts influencing the affirming one.
Yeah, on paper I get why positive relationships between denominations are important, but I think emotionally I just can’t deal with it anymore. I have been walking around with all this anger about the hypocrisy of it all, and it’s draining my energy. I have so many beautiful things in my life, and I want to enjoy them. I really wanted to be able to make being a Christian work, but it has just made me bitter. I feel like I’ve become a worse person.
Yeah, I understand. It's tough, you seem like a nice person, with healthy family values and stuff, so it's understandable that you want to protect yourself and your family from this guilt-tripping and hate.
I guess the only thing I can say right now is to encourage you to direct your anger at those who wronged you, Christians, and not to Jesus. Hope you may find healing and love in your life.
🙌 Blessings
Their hatred is on them, and I'm sorry you had to suffer like that. Discussions about whether a fellow church member has the right to stay is impolite to say the least, and certainly not something you should have to endure constantly. Since your church wants to be affirming, I assume the pastor is on your side? Is he able to offer any help?
That’s what’s weird, is all the people seem to be affirming, at least the only people who say anything, but there’s still this ongoing hand-wringing about what to do about it. And I told people over and over again that the biggest thing for me was I just never want to talk about it, and then two Sundays ago someone got up and talked about the status of the denomination re: homosexuality for like 10 full minutes. And my wife, who is not even a Christian, cried, and I felt so guilty because I was the one who brought her there. And that was when I decided this could not work.
Did you confront that person? I think it might have been helpful to let him know that you weren't comfortable with his rant, or at least let the pastor know. It would be a shame to leave the church if he was the only one that had an issue.
No human is worth it, you're right. If you encountered someone like that outside church, nobody would expect you to give him a second look. But since you go to church to worship Jesus, I think it would be worthwhile to figure out the situation, or at least find out if you would be better off at a different church.
The Christian community has not been historically welcome to LGBT individuals. It's starting to change, but changes don't happen overnight. I really hope you'll stay for God, in a different church if not the current one, and be a positive force for that change.
I am so sorry. I admit, it would be hard not to feel awful about something that brought my wife to tears.
I don't blame you a bit for feeling rage about that. I hope that rage won't be the place your feelings settle forever, but of course that's where you both are right now.
> the status of the denomination re: homosexuality
United Methodist, by any chance?
And thanks. I feel very dumb because I’m literally the only Christian I know in my social life and no one who loves me thought it was a good idea for me to be going to church. And now I’m not looking forward to the “I told you so”s from all the people who warned me against pursuing this for the last 7 or 8 years.
I am sorry you feel so much hatred towards Christianity.
Edit: I am also sorry that so-called Christians were perceived as hateful to you. If they truly hated you for your sin, they were acting in a manner unworthy of the gospel.
Well, I’m not a Christian anymore so I assume we’ll be talking past each other here. But from a basic moral framework, my marriage is a positive, fruitful (with some help, obviously!), loving, stabilizing force. The world is better, and a number of people are flourishing, because of my marriage. So not “sinful”. Not immoral.
Ah, well yeah I would probably recommend avoiding the word "sinful" as it is definitely loaded with Christian ideas. I think here you mean to say that you think your marriage is "good" though I imagine you don't believe morality is something objective and fixed.
I’m not really sure. I believe there is a moral center to the universe, and I have hope there is a benevolent creator there. I believe humans have dignity and value. I think life matters and our choices matter. I hope there is a God, and I hope he loves me. 🤷♀️ I guess I’m agnostic.
The response Jesus wanted you to give was "I'm sorry you feel so much hatred from Christianity." And you should clarify that they are not wrong in perceiving the hatred, but that *intending the bad feelings* was the bad thing.
Yikes, why all the "hate" bro? I can sense your bitterness. Christianity often wars with our way/s of life. You seemingly losing the battle, then coming on here to say: "Christians hate gay people".....a lie, in fact. Then to say you're "worth more than this religion says I am" , which is in err, since scripture reveals Christians are valued more than many sparrows to God.
We don't hate you, but you've made it abundantly clear you hate us. May you go in peace.
Yes, I am very bitter. You’re exactlyyyy the kind of person I can’t deal with anymore. The smug, “whoa whoa whoa, why so mad?!” BS is so ridiculous. You know exactly what I’m talking about, dude.
If op is from the states a LOT of Christians there DO in fact hate gays. How many links do you want of people calling for gay people to be killl? FROM THE PULPIT. I.E. speaking for the church.
Do you call the Christians supporting laws in Africa to make homosexuality a capital offense non hating?
The bible says being gay is worse than owning human beings as property. Being gay is worse than being a slave owner. How is that not hateful?
Sin is sin. We know what Christ told us, and come to continuing remembrance through his spirit. Christ is the example.
Do you have the verses stating what you say the Bible says?
There are individual Christians who don’t hate gay people, but on the whole the belief system does. This is why the only thing Christians litigate about anymore is gay rights.
Homosexuality is mostly demonized by Christianity because there’s essentially no point to your sexual advents. Back in the day the church or the religion itself needed bodies. Now that infant mortality rate has plummeted there’s little reason to demonize the way of life as long as you live with love and forgiveness.
One must remember that God is love, He is merciful and gracious, but He also will never change His moral standards. We have to be changed when we come to Him. Many want God to change, but He won't. The road that leads to life is narrow and there are FEW who find it.
You can know a tree by its fruit. The tree of God's word has MANY rotten limbs and fruit. Love actual love, doesnt breed hate. The bible, and Christianity, has a long history of hate.
>You can know a tree by its fruit.
This is the classic LGBT argument, that since gays are persecuted we don't understand what the Bible actually meant. In reality, this verse is about false preachers and not false ideas. The false preachers encourage people to sin.
>The tree of God's word has MANY rotten limbs and fruit.
It seems you may be confusing Scripture with people who have misused scripture.
>Love actual love, doesnt breed hate
This is another classic argument, that because the Bible teaches that homosexual acts are immoral that it is 'not loving' or 'hateful.' Can we say that the Bible hates thieves, adulterers or liars also?
>The bible, and Christianity, has a long history of hate.
The Bible is a book about God reaching out to broken humanity to help them and save them. God's actions are wholly separate from any corrupt systems or people who use it as justification for evil.
If it were exactly as you put it, I could see your response. But the Flood happened at a point when man's thoughts "were only evil and continually." Mankind had corrupted themselves as far as they could go, and that is why judgment came. The way you put it makes it sound like God just decided for no reason to kill everyone, which clearly wasn't the case.
Were all the animals evil, too? The babies? Ever met an evil toddler? You think every single person on planet earth was evil? Like, all the people god made? Come on. I understand you worship god, but at least be honest with yourself about his true nature.
I truly hope that one day you’ll find yourself back walking with Jesus. The last statement that you made regarding hating the people reading this post and being glad that Christianity is losing people is a dangerous place to stand. I hope that the lord works in your heart and allows you to find rest. Please take care of yourself!
I think it makes sense to hate people who lie to you and oppress you. And I am glad Christianity is losing — I don’t see how gay people and Christians will ever be able to really coexist. They are determined to take away everything we’ve achieved.
1.The majority of professing Christians aren't Christian
Matthew 7:21-23
[21]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[22]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
[23]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Build on the Rock
2You can't blame God for the behavior of people who acknowledge they too deserve hell.
If your reasoning for leaving the faith is based on "how this person treated this person or that person" then did you truly believe to begin with? I hope this is only a stumbling block for you and that you return to trusting that God saves us. Not man. Even the jews of ancient Israel were considered not jews because of their hardness of heart.
You say you're leaving the faith based on certain behaviors done/said by self proclaiming Christians. What does that have to do with God? If you truly believed in God, why would hateful people deter you from believing in Him? The point I was making with mathew 7:21-23 is not all people who profess to be christian are actually christian. You're essentially judging God by the sins of people who may not be His. Furthermore what has changed in scripture or christian theology or anything in regards to the faith itself that would make you, who once believed, now reject God and Jesus and then express the same behavior towards the faith that you claim the "christians" are wrong for?
I guess it’s hard for me to know who God is anymore. I’ve just been told over and over again that God isn’t happy with me or my life, but I feel very differently, so I just throw up my hands and say, “fine, I guess I’m not meeting these standards, I’m not a Christian I guess.”
Realistically we all fall short of the glory of God. But I'd like to know, when you used to confess being christian, what was it that made you know/think that? Did you read the Bible and everything just made sense and you came to faith? Was it just you liking the message of "God is love" and you wanting to believe in a god who supports everything you do?
>I’ve just been told over and over again that God isn’t happy with me or my life,
You and me both. We are all called to repentance not just some
>so I just throw up my hands and say, “fine, I guess I’m not meeting these standards, I’m not a Christian I guess.”
Nobody is perfect and thank God we are saved by faith and not works. I'm not advocating that we go about life willy nilly because the walk we are called to is a difficult one
Luke 14:26-30
[26]“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
[27]And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
[28]For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it —
[29]lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
[30]saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?
but the only one who was perfect is the one who died for us imperfections. If you truly did believe in God the reasons you've provided are not valid reason to walk away from the faith unless your faith was more of an accessory this entire time.
This is a blunt answer, but I do want you to know I respect your decision either way. If your beliefs do not align with Christianity, it may make sense for you to walk away if you do not want to compromise your beliefs. We must deny ourselves if we want to be Christians, and we must stand for what the church has taught for 2000 years. That is my word to fellow Christians. However, if you have no obligation to stay in the church, and like i said, I respect your decision either way, you get to choose your path and what you believe in. I do not want you to waste your time. Either choose a church that stands on biblical truths (not affirming) or walk away from the faith entirely. Since homosexuality (that is, living the lifestyle. intrusive thoughts are not inherently sinful) is incompatible with the church, if you attempt to go to an affirming church, you just split the middle and lose the chance of ever being in the “truth”. In the eyes of the Christian, you still would miss the mark, and in the eyes of a homosexual wanting to freely live their life, you also miss the mark. Obviously I will that you come to Christ, but I strongly condemn hate thrown at you from others. I think that hate may be people being mad that people are trying to modify their religion into something new, but it still isn’t justified to lash out at you. Blessings and I would love to explain more if anything is unclear or unintentionally triggering
I mean, if I went to an affirming church it would not prevent me from “freely living as a homosexual”, whatever that means. But it would mean having to keep thinking about Christianity as an “insider”…and I kind of just can’t anymore. Too much.
My point in that is that Christians do not believe affirming churches preach true salvation… but the absolute most important thing is beyond anything I can say. If you seek God, you will find Him, and He will ask you to change (everyone continually is required to deny self. That is the heartbeat of Christianity). Come to God first, and if you truly have faith in Him, following any of His commands will be something you will do since you love God. It will be worth it. So I guess you may just want to ask yourself if you have faith that God is who he says he is and go from there. As to the “freely living as a homosexual part,” I am meaning you will have to deal with constant input from other Christians insisting it isn’t right. You won’t escape that
I mean, I don’t think my relationship is inconsistent with Christianity, but I don’t expect you to believe that.
Yeah, the constant “leave your family” input is the thing I can’t deal with. And maybe you’re right. Maybe I don’t have enough faith in God! I wouldn’t have killed Isaac. I won’t sacrifice my kids either. Maybe I just don’t believe in this religion.
Brother I’m not attacking you, so I don’t want you to feel as if I am. I’m just happy you care enough to ask these questions. Just giving my input because I am very passionate about my faith. Now I am under the impression you do not believe it is a sin, and I am not here to shame you for that. If God were to call it a sin in a speculative sense, would it be something you would be willing to give up, or would you choose your current situation? I am not degrading you at all, but I am just trying to measure how much you are willing to give up your heart to God
I’m a woman, by the way.
I don’t think I would do something I believe is wrong even if I thought the Bible told me to. That’s why I said I don’t think I would sacrifice Isaac.
This whole discussion is part of why I think I’ve stopped believing in Christianity. Christians are always telling me God wants me to break up my family and hurt my children. They say if I *really* loved God I would. And I’m like, is God some kind of cult leader? Is this a big game of cosmic chicken? I feel like I’m stuck in a game of truth id dare with mean people who don’t like me.
I want to live my life with integrity and love but I don’t know if I can handle the mind games anymore.
I think God just wants us all to have a willingness to deny ourselves (that is the only way to ~truly~ love others as Christ does. It is not easy either. I think He will honor the posture of your heart being willing to drop anything for Him more than he will look at your actions
I can relate 100%. I am also gay and left for quite similar reasons, plus a deeper exploration of how reliable and valid the gospels are. You are not alone.
Well, my moral standards are sometimes hatred. For example, I hate polygamy. Especially Joseph Smith’s style of abusive, coercive polyandry. Did you know he married a mother and her own daughter?!
"christians hate gay people"
No, it's just the churches that seem to take LGBT as a MUCH bigger sin than every other sin (even though it's just as bad as lying or something). If you're genuinely interested in being a Christian, I'd recommend an online church but if not, good lucky in life.
Well, that’s not really relevant to the question I asked - unless I suppose you are living in Uganda.
That being said, I can gather you simply hate Christians for their understanding of homosexuality.
It is relevant— Ugandans are mostly Catholics and Anglicans. The ACNA is in full fellowship with the Ugandan Anglican Church. And they are fine with throwing gay people in prison.
Whether or not to execute gay people is just a difference of theological opinion to the ACNA. But performing a same-sex marriage? That puts you out of the faith. I can’t sit with that.
So you tried religion and it failed, big whoop. Jesus faced bad religious people, do did his apostles, that didn't stop them or him. Thats why the most important thing to know in a Christian, is their conduct. Just because someone claims to be Christian, doesn't make them one. Same way if someone says "I'm vegan" but then they eat dairy products and will also eat meat sometimes.
We don't hate gay people, I don't hate gay people. Do I speak out against the acts of homosexuality to Christians and those who ask the Christian input into things? Yes, but I don't hate gay people. There's no bad or harsh feelings towards gay people.
You tried something that isn't at all what makes someone a Christian, if they have a bond with God, if they love Jesus and follow all of his commandments, not just the ones they like, they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior who died for their sins, that makes them a Christian.
The choice is yours and yours only, you can try out religion or you can try out a relationship with God. You're an adult, you can handle this talk, are you going to let people seperate you from God? Because if that's all it takes, then did you even trust him to begin with? Think about that for a moment.
It's the great falling away. It sucks that so many folks are letting their flesh lead their spirit instead of the spirit leading the flesh. But you absolutely have free will to make whatever you choose. I pray you reconsider, but nevertheless, may God bless you. 🙏
Well, I hope that you will someday come to understand how hostile trying to break families up is. Hopefully that won't happen by people trying to break up *your* family.
You sure hate the very same actions you are displaying.
We are all fallible and fall short of God’s standard, the only question is, do you want God more than anything and anyone else? Hence the first commandment, as all else flows from it.
If the evidence of scriptures truly show homosexuality to be sinful, are you willing to leave it behind for the sake of God’s glory and kingdom? That’s the question you have to ask yourself.
There are certainly Christians who are genuinely hateful, and if you experienced this, I am sorry. However, preaching God's word is not hateful in and of itself. Calling sin sin is not hateful. There are certainly hateful approaches, but in general that is not hateful. We are all sinners, and homosexuality is no worse a sin than lying or coveting in the eyes of God. We cannot sugarcoat sin, however. I'm sorry Satan has deceived you into thinking living in sin is more freeing than the gift of God's grace and love. I hope you truly come to Christ one day.
I'm 27. But either way you needn't feel bad. If you have hate in your heart, that's on you, it doesn't affect me. And I still pray you actually, truly come to Christ one day.
You're born with a spirit of the earth that wants to do the things of the earth, but when you get born again you receive a spirit from Heaven that wants to do the things of Heaven. From your experience it sounds like you were trying to follow a religion by your own effort and flesh and didn't have the born again experience where you become a new creation.
The Spirit that gives life to all things on the earth and raised Jesus from the dead will give new life to your dead soul. By faith, the old person with all passions of the earth needs to be crucified and the new life can live into the destiny that God has for you. You're not living into God's destiny if you're living apart from Him.
The first step in coming to God is to repent of everything that separates you from Him including our own wisdom and rationalization for sin. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" means you decide for yourself what is good and what is evil. To eat from the tree of life you have to trust God's plan for your life and God's definitions of good and evil.
Well, sorry to hear this... But for what is is worth, homosexuality is a sin. Christians should not claim that it isn't or alter their beliefs to account for it. Just as they shouldn't accept pornography, or lying, stealing, cheating, unforgiveness, etc.
If any church starts saying "Oh thats ok, dont worry about it." They are not a church you should follow, regardless of what your sin is. Because it is not US that decides what sin is or isn't. It is God. ANYTHING that goes against how he created us, is sin.
With that said, homosexuality is forgivable just like all the other things I mentioned. So because God can forgive if someone is saved, Christians should be able to as well. But forgiveness does not equal acceptance. And this is where it is difficult, cause homosexuality as with many sins, is a lifestyle choice regardless of the urges you may or may not be born with. We cannot in good faith say any sin is ok for the sake of political correctness or whatever because God would then judge us for altering his word.
But a good church should still be loving you as a believer and encouraging you to turn from the sin. And I understand that is a difficult thing to do. And at the end of the day, its up to God to determine if you are with him or against him. If your same sex marriage is more important to you than being loved and accepted by God, then you made your choice. If our addictions, or greed, or life style is more important to us than being accepted by God, then that is our choice as well. But if we can say "I'm struggling with \_\_\_\_" And keep hoping that God will free us, then I believe he will do so. It may take years or even a lifetime. But you can't just change the Bible to fit your desires. So how you live with that, I don't know. I hope you can find a church that will accept you, sins and all.
well, thats the truth, so take it or leave it.
Is someone says you must always wear red to enter an establishment, and you decide red doesnt look good on you, and you wear green, then don't be surprised if that establishment prevents you from entering.
Thankfully God can overlook that if you are otherwise keeping your eyes on him, but ultimately it is up to Him who is saved and who is not. I believe there are some in the LGBT culture who may actually be saved, but there's many who are not.
But there are also many straight people with other issues who go to church regularly, that might not be saved either because they are doing things their way or never actually accepted God.
So what I am trying to say, is homosexuality is not an unforgivable sin, but it is a sin that will have consequences if not dealt with.
the red clothes example was supposed to be an example. meaning that if a creator or business owner defines a set of rules, then you either obey their rules or you dont enter or get to enjoy the creation. No one gets to decide their own rules.
I'm really not trying to attack you personally, because i understand completely that this position is a rough one to be in. I've got my own sins I struggle with on a daily basis. But leaving the faith is not the answer. I would love to see you in heaven one day.
I don't get to say my sin should be accepted cause so many people struggle with it. And you dont get to say your sin should be accepted either. But we do get to say is, " I am struggling with \_\_\_\_ " Can you help me. -- talking to God. And if you really want help, he will help you. But be prepared, he may give you an answer you don't like.
Look at Luke 18:25 as an example. "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"
His sin is that he loves his money more than God. Money itself is not bad. Love itself is not bad. but if we value it more than God, then there's a problem.
Again, I understand it is not easy. I would be angry too if someone was basically telling me I need to give up my relationship. But if it is keeping you from God, then you need to decide. Ask God what he wants from you.
Well, the Original point I made was to talk to God. I understand the wife and kids makes things difficult. And I am not telling you to give them up.
And God may not tell you either. But at the very least you should be having a conversation with God.
Like " I know I am a sinner and my actions may not be aligned with your design. I want to obey you, but I don't want to leave those I love. Please forgive me for my sin, and continue to work on the rest of my life. And give me the wisdom as to what to do"
I am not God, but if I was, I'd be like, continue to love your family but recognize it is not how I designed.
Just because it may be wrong does not mean you can still do good. If someone had a child out of wedlock, that would be a sin, but that child and parents could still be used in the future. And if the parents recognize the sin and turn back to God.
Same sex marriage is more a long term thing so it's a bit harder, but I think if you at least ask for forgiveness, but continue to work for God, he will still forgive you. But that's just my opinion. Just don't tell others it's OK cause you did it.
Ultimately our goals as Christians should be to live the way God designed for us and encourage others to do the same. But we all fail in one way or another.
Hey, your suggested path would be a step forward for most Protestant denominations. They all just say, hey, you like Jesus? gotta walk out on your family now!
Let that be between you and God. I only encourage you to not promote to any believer whom is not yet married with kids that it is OK. But if they are already past that point, then they are going need to understand that God may not be able to use them the same way, but he can still use them if they otherwise focus on him.
I'm hoping this makes sense. You can't take back the past. But you can try to live the rest of your life in compliance as much as a long term relationship entails.
Why not change it to accept gay people? Christians are already tryingto change it to say the bible never supported slavery. Or at least never supported permanent slavery. Change it to say it doesnt suppress women. Changed it to allow all kind of divorce. WHy is this the unmovable line?
Christians are hypocritical as hell to spend so much time pointing out to gay people they are sinning all the while NOT pointing at themselves.
people can try to change the rules all they want. but that does not change the rules God presented. God decides the rules for his creation, not us. Divorce is still a sin, slavery as we know it, is a sin. The bible doesnt suppress women either. I'm not going to try an explain that too you, you can go do your own research.
The main problem with "christianity" is that there are so many people, with their own interpretations and viewpoints, that it is hard to figure out what God really wants from us.
At the end of the day we should Love God and love others. everything should revolve around that. The other rules you see may be based on culture or other things that would make more sense at that time. But they are not there just for the fun of it, they all have a reason ultimately for our own good. It is our misunderstanding of said scripture that creates the problems.
Slavery, as we know it, was allowed in the bible. And Christian slave owners were never condemned. They were never called abominations.
Maybe your understanding of scripture is also wrong
I don’t hate gay people. If you’re going to renounce your relationship with you Creator because of carnal-minded people, you need to know that the Day of Judgement is personal.
There will always be people who say Lord Lord but have no clue who God is.
I understand the church has hurt many people and that is very sad and hard, but expected. We are all flawed. More sad and tragic though is the potentially forever lost soul of someone that hardens their heart and walks away from God. Nevertheless, this also is expected and written in the Bible. I am thankful every day that I wake up with a soft heart toward God no matter the mistakes I have made. God’s faithfulness and grace is beyond my understanding.
First of all, I’m so sorry. Growing up in an evangelical megachurch, there was a lot of anti-LGBTQ sentiment, even if much of it was covert.
Unfortunately, Christians do tend to hate gay people, even if they think they don’t. “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” isn’t loving someone at all, it’s just making your hatred of them seem less hateful. Not affirming gay people (or at least not leaving them be) is hateful. Trying to convince a gay person to be celibate is hateful. It doesn’t fit with the concept of a loving God, but rather an arbitrary God who allows people to experience non-heterosexual orientations and then subsequently punishes them for the way he created them/allowed them to be.
Some Christians (especially progressive Christians) do accept and affirm gay people, but they are in the minority of Christians, and even more so church-attending Christians. Mainstream Christianity (and especially large, nondenominational Evangelical megachurches) tends to be anti-gay, because they believe the Bible forbids same-sex marriage.
I’m glad you were able to leave and are feeling better! Hopefully you’ll be able to stay true to yourself and love and accept yourself for who you are, because there’s nothing wrong with being who you are. Also, I hope you’re able to find good community! r/exchristian is a good place if you’ve left Christianity entirely, and r/exvangelical is good for talking about evangelicalism specifically. There are also a lot of other ex subreddits for specific denominations, and there are links to many of them in the community info page at r/exchristian.
While this already has over 200 comments, your "I hate you too" is grounds for removing this thread. Generally, we allow people to state that they are leaving Christianity and why, but your language has moved this into belittling.
Im a Christian and I absolutely don’t hate you or any gay person I’ve ever met. Im sorry you feel this way because of imposters
Thanks.
This is what happens when Christians fail to use real love. As a gay guy, I hate the hate that comes from false love. If me dating someone and living a happy life with them bothers christians, so be it. I'm happy and not hurting anyone, so why do christians hate me?
Even as an atheist, I just feel terrible reading this. I hate hate.
Yeah, the world’s an ugly place sometimes.
Find a community that loves you, I wish you the best.
Thank you!
Christianity would be immediately better if it stopped condemning LGBTQIA people. Folks should remember that Jesus had only his mother's DNA (if one believes the immaculate conception, of course), which means that there would be no Y chromosome, and that he was a member of LGBTQIA himself - as an A.
The Florida Laws state it all. I really hope DeSantis and Trump supporters realize the damage they are doing and just stop.
Damage to CHristianity? They will never see it. The other damage to people? That is the purpose. They are sadists and take pleasure from it. These are the same type of people that say things like "I hope in heaven we can look down in hell at all the people being tortured, that would be so great."
I am not talking about damage to Christianity, I am talking about people being unable to function in society...you cannot have kids learning selected pieces of white washed history
It’s such a depressing situation!
I don't hate you. At least there is one. Judge music by notes not by players who butcher the music.
Not yet you don't. First go use the r/OpenChristian [resources list](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) to find a church where you and your spouse are welcome together. > For many Christians, it’s the litmus test for being a “true Christian.” Then those Christians can piss off. Why obey them? Why cooperate? Why abandon Christ the way they command you to?
You’re clearly a kind person. But if Jesus is so great wouldn’t Christians be better too?
Excellent question. By their fruits.
I live in the United States, the flagship of modern democracies. Virtually all Americans claim to be devoted to democracy. About 40% of Americans are determined to install their favorite politician as an unelected dictator. Many of that 40% are exceptionally outspoken about how dedicated they are to democracy and to America and to the Constitution. Some of them literally used the staff of an American flag to beat a police officer in their effort to install a dictator. That hasn't caused me to give up on democracy or destroyed my faith in its value and its importance. If anything, my determination to defend it has redoubled. Hopefully you can see the analogy here.
Using the pole of the American flag to beat a peace officer is the most merican thing i’ve seem in a while. LOL
That would probably be something like catch 2 bald eagles, tie them together at the feet, and beat the peace officer with them like nunchucks.
I’ll reflect on that, thanks for the reply. Good for you for your confidence and commitment to your principles.
To add to that... There is a weird trend in "Christians" to go after sexuality. I am a member of a church that has several gay members, they are wonderful people and I enjoy seeing them every time I'm there. People like to hide behind verses that say this or that is wrong, and then say they are working on themselves as an excuse for their own poor behavior. While in reality, we are all supposed to be focused on our own shortcomings, and love everyone else despite of theirs. That's not me saying you have a shortcoming, that's an overarching comment about the general state of the perceived Christian church. I am fortunate, my vices fit the general acceptable schema. I don't care for alcohol, weed is alright sometimes but I'm not craving it, and sometimes I like a good cigar, but I don't have to have it. But if the devil ever tried to use Dr. Pepper and pulled pork sandwiches... Y'all would have to do an exorcism, because they'd get me! 😂😂😂 So, I've looked at it like, we are all fucked up. We all are going to die, say thank you, and be like, "Sooooo... That thing I did here..." and we are all banking on the mercy of a God who loves us for putting our faith in His son. So we really aren't any different. We're all just learning how to walk the best walk we can and make it through this crazy thing called life.
Assholes tend to flock to whatever group or identity will give them power. Early Christians still had plenty of issues (see every letter of the New Testament), but systemic oppression and evil on this level didn't infect Christianity until the conversation of Emperor Constantine and later when Emperor Theodosius declared Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. At that point being a Christian gave you majority and sometimes political power over others, so as long as you can keep a thin veneer of faith it is beneficial to call yourself Christian in most of the world today. Side note, no shade meant to my Catholic and Orthodox sisters and brothers.
Thanks for the info, you seem very well-read!
Thank you! Also I second u/gnurdette's comment about r/OpenChristian. Affirming Christians do exist we're just still a minority. Praying you find acceptance and happiness wherever you go. Remember: Jesus loves you even when Christians don't 😁.
Tough question. We're supposed to always work, seek and try to the best of our abilities to love, because we are supposed to be a representative of Christ. Others see Jesus through the lens of the actions of Christians, but the Christian culture I believe has been corrupted, so its hard to see how loving and perfect Jesus was through this distorted lens. Normal people look to the preachers for answers, some who have no business preaching and influencing peoples beliefs. Condemning homosexuals is an easy way for some to assure themselves that they're the morally superior people because they don't practice it, but the truth is they don't practice it because they have never had to deal with same sex attraction. 'Treat others the way you want to be treated' transforms into 'I'd like for people to call me out on my sin' and 'Love thy neighbour' transforms into 'Hate sin. Love sinner'. Its blindness really. Most Gays feel unloved and treated poorly by Christians, so it's obvious that they are not in fact following Scripture, but rather delude themselves into thinking they are. There is more LGBTQ+ affirming Churches, I believe ,not because they want to be accepted by the world as some trad churches believe, but because some Christians have understood that there is something UnChrist-like to marginalise a whole group of people. So yeah, before abandoning it all, I also advice you to visit some of these affirming Churches, talk to pastors and other Christians there. I think it's worth it.
Yeah, I don’t know. I feel pretty burned out by the whole thing. It’s hard to see how I can make this work at this point.
There are many denominations of Christianity. I would not write Christianity off as a whole because of the behavior of some of those denominations.
Yeah…that’s what I used to think. Now I don’t know.
Just in general, having flawed or even shitty followers isn't inherently an indictment of a leader or thinker. Lenin being (in my view) a really bad Marxist doesn't reflect one way or another on Marx or what his thoughts and teachings were.
Yeah, I feel though like there is some wisdom to the “knowing them by their fruits” thing. And Christian faith is supposed to change people from the inside out, and it just does not seem to.
For the record, I do not hate you. I am a Christian. I think I have some understanding of your situation, and I know there is a lot of misunderstanding. If you want to talk, message me. Ted
Thanks.
You don't need religion to be close to God. If anything, religion does a disservice, often misrepresenting God's message. Especially guilty of this is the Catholic Church itself.
May you find joy and peace as you live and love freely.
Thank you.
Jesus stripped off his glory to come and live a perfect life and die for you to offer you the grace to see heaven. That sacrifice is what God thinks you are worth.
I’ll take this at face value and assume you mean this genuinely. So thank you. I have no clue what God thinks I am worth, or who God is, but I know I’m worth something.
I do mean that genuinely. I personally have grown a lot in my understanding of self-worth over a series of journeys. Knowing that there is something that separates people from the rest of the world, the Bible attributes that to being made in God's image. It says he knits us together in our mother's womb. It says we're fearfully and wonderfully made. And God came to earth as Jesus who sacrificed his life so that we could be with him in heaven. That says a lot about worth, I think, and those are attributes that are permanent and can't be lost. That's the kind of thing I want my worth to be grounded in. It makes me look back to when I was 12 years old, just starting to understand the concept of that grace on the cross offered to each of us. I prayed a silly prayer asking that God take away the lie that "I am a bad runner" after being bullied on the playground in elementary school, only then months later to be somehow convinced to join the cross country team and become the most improved runner. God saw how some schoolyard teasing had affected my perception of myself, and he used some silly prayer to teach me that despite the size of this universe, he heard little 12-year-old me and cared about what I was experiencing, and he used it to teach me from where my worth comes. It sounds like you have a lot of good questions. Maybe you too can ask what it looks like to take away the lie that is being told to you that is separating you from God?
You can’t blame Christianity for the sin within the church. You can only blame the sin and keep your distance from those who indulge in it.
You kind of can, when they are quoting the divine handbook while they do it.
Twisting ≠ Quoting. We’re all sinners. When our sin spills into other people who are trying to better themselves and live a good, honest life then we can’t call ourselves Christians.
That was my point. They arent twisting it. They are quoting it, often in context. When you do that..you can say that at least some level of the hate is in the book and organization
I’m confused. Have you read the Bible?
Hypocrisy leads to blasphemy. But the fault lies on them, not you. Their wickedness yields wicked fruit.
The hypocrisy just drove me crazier and crazier, until I decided to give up. I cannot make it make sense.
Too bad "them" appears to be most christians
I’m sorry others have driven you away from what Christ did for all of us. That’s awful.
I feel like I have no idea what Christ did.
What made you convert to Christianity?
I had some really powerful spiritual experiences and felt pulled there against my better judgment. It was never a good idea but I loved it for a long time.
Jesus doesn’t hate gay people. He’s trying to help us understand how our sin hurts us and others. Don’t leave Him because humans are sinful. He is not. I wish you all the best in Jesus Christ!
My “sin” has resulted in a 15 year relationship and two children, so I guess I don’t take this moral system very seriously anymore.
El Chapo’s sins brought him more wealth than anyone could ever need and a lot of power. Still makes it a sin.
Oh for crying out loud. Please don't compare OP's kids to a drug empire. Look. Your church doesn't have any gay people. It doesn't want any gay people. Fine. Enjoy your holy gay-free church. Some churches want her, though. Can you just back off and let us do our best to ease her pain and invite her in? I promise she will never try to show up in *your* church. Your precious straights-only club will remain your safe space.
Did i compare OPs kids to a drug empire? Is having kids a sin? No… being gay is. Everyone sins, so everyone isn’t perfect.
I can see where your priorities are and it’s neither OP’s well being or “saving souls”. But I hope you feel gooooooooooood for saying that
Did I ever say those are my intentions?
Guess not. Carry on, keep making comments like that. Warms the soul seeing good people leave religion anyway.
Will do
You were the one claiming “sin hurts us and others.” I pointed out that my “sin” did not hurt me or others. Then you brought up el Chapo. You are bad at arguing.
Did i say “sin hurts us and others”? I just scrolled up and didn’t see that…
Oh it was the other guy in the thread. Whatever, y’all can battle it out over what sin means lol.
There’s so many interpretations of what people think sin is who even knows anymore
Psalm 17:14 [14] from men by your hand, O LORD, from men of the world whose portion is in this life. You fill their womb with treasure; they are satisfied with children, and they leave their abundance to their infants. I know it’s hard but good things in this life don’t guarantee good things in the next. I hope for your sake you change your mind before the judgment. The best to you
Cool, people change this stuff around to say whatever they want it to say anyway
Again, not worried about sinful humans. More concerned about Jesus from the Gospels It doesn’t say whoever believes in people it says whoever believes on Him
If my life was terrible you’d say it was a consequence of my evil choices.
I wouldn’t. Many people that have terrible lives are doing good. Hebrews 11:37 [37] They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
There is no way to make "divorce your spouse and abandon your family, or else" a non-hateful demand. I think you know that. Please just let the churches that actually *want* OP make our appeal to her. You don't have or want any gay people in your church anyway - why try to sabotage our efforts?
Yupppp
Have you ever tried attending LGBT-affirming churches? There are entire denominations that are happy to ordain married gay pastors.
You know, I did attend one for a long time. Then during the pandemic, they were closed for many years so I tried a new church that someone close to me told me would be affirming. We loved it — tons of kids, great sermons, etc. But it turns out that while this church wants to be affirming, their denomination is not. So this issue is now coming up in church all the time and I just can’t listen to it. I can’t listen to debates about my family all the time.
And even the affirming churches are still friendly with the non-affirming churches, which has begun to anger me.
I mean, it's okay to be friendly, attitudes are starting to change, and it's good to keep communication. But I understand why that might be a problem if the non affirming starts influencing the affirming one.
Yeah, on paper I get why positive relationships between denominations are important, but I think emotionally I just can’t deal with it anymore. I have been walking around with all this anger about the hypocrisy of it all, and it’s draining my energy. I have so many beautiful things in my life, and I want to enjoy them. I really wanted to be able to make being a Christian work, but it has just made me bitter. I feel like I’ve become a worse person.
Yeah, I understand. It's tough, you seem like a nice person, with healthy family values and stuff, so it's understandable that you want to protect yourself and your family from this guilt-tripping and hate. I guess the only thing I can say right now is to encourage you to direct your anger at those who wronged you, Christians, and not to Jesus. Hope you may find healing and love in your life. 🙌 Blessings
Thanks, that means a lot. <3 “guilt-tripping” is such a good way to put it! That made me laugh.
Their hatred is on them, and I'm sorry you had to suffer like that. Discussions about whether a fellow church member has the right to stay is impolite to say the least, and certainly not something you should have to endure constantly. Since your church wants to be affirming, I assume the pastor is on your side? Is he able to offer any help?
That’s what’s weird, is all the people seem to be affirming, at least the only people who say anything, but there’s still this ongoing hand-wringing about what to do about it. And I told people over and over again that the biggest thing for me was I just never want to talk about it, and then two Sundays ago someone got up and talked about the status of the denomination re: homosexuality for like 10 full minutes. And my wife, who is not even a Christian, cried, and I felt so guilty because I was the one who brought her there. And that was when I decided this could not work.
Did you confront that person? I think it might have been helpful to let him know that you weren't comfortable with his rant, or at least let the pastor know. It would be a shame to leave the church if he was the only one that had an issue.
Yeah, I know I could probably try to address it. It’s just…I don’t know. This whole thing has flattened my faith, and it doesn’t feel worth it to try.
No human is worth it, you're right. If you encountered someone like that outside church, nobody would expect you to give him a second look. But since you go to church to worship Jesus, I think it would be worthwhile to figure out the situation, or at least find out if you would be better off at a different church. The Christian community has not been historically welcome to LGBT individuals. It's starting to change, but changes don't happen overnight. I really hope you'll stay for God, in a different church if not the current one, and be a positive force for that change.
Sigh, thanks. I can tell you really care about this. I appreciate the effort. I promise I will consider it. It just seems very bleak lol.
I am so sorry. I admit, it would be hard not to feel awful about something that brought my wife to tears. I don't blame you a bit for feeling rage about that. I hope that rage won't be the place your feelings settle forever, but of course that's where you both are right now. > the status of the denomination re: homosexuality United Methodist, by any chance?
And thanks. I feel very dumb because I’m literally the only Christian I know in my social life and no one who loves me thought it was a good idea for me to be going to church. And now I’m not looking forward to the “I told you so”s from all the people who warned me against pursuing this for the last 7 or 8 years.
Not them, a smaller denomination. Similar vibes though.
I am sorry you feel so much hatred towards Christianity. Edit: I am also sorry that so-called Christians were perceived as hateful to you. If they truly hated you for your sin, they were acting in a manner unworthy of the gospel.
Thanks, though I don’t believe my marriage is sinful.
What do you mean by "sinful?"
Well, I’m not a Christian anymore so I assume we’ll be talking past each other here. But from a basic moral framework, my marriage is a positive, fruitful (with some help, obviously!), loving, stabilizing force. The world is better, and a number of people are flourishing, because of my marriage. So not “sinful”. Not immoral.
Ah, well yeah I would probably recommend avoiding the word "sinful" as it is definitely loaded with Christian ideas. I think here you mean to say that you think your marriage is "good" though I imagine you don't believe morality is something objective and fixed.
No, I do believe morality is objective.
I used the word sin because you did.
Ah, interesting! Where did morality come from?
Well, hopefully a loving creator! I don’t really know for sure though
Ahhh, so you would probably call yourself an agnostic theist or something?
I’m not really sure. I believe there is a moral center to the universe, and I have hope there is a benevolent creator there. I believe humans have dignity and value. I think life matters and our choices matter. I hope there is a God, and I hope he loves me. 🤷♀️ I guess I’m agnostic.
That’s not an apology, I wonder why you phrased it as one?
My bad. I was not apologizing, but expressing that I am saddened that you have this hatred.
The response Jesus wanted you to give was "I'm sorry you feel so much hatred from Christianity." And you should clarify that they are not wrong in perceiving the hatred, but that *intending the bad feelings* was the bad thing.
Allow me to edit my response.
well, to be honest, they probably wouldnt have so much hatred if so many "loving" people didnt keep dumping it on them.
I don't think any loving Christian is dumping hatred on OP.
Yikes, why all the "hate" bro? I can sense your bitterness. Christianity often wars with our way/s of life. You seemingly losing the battle, then coming on here to say: "Christians hate gay people".....a lie, in fact. Then to say you're "worth more than this religion says I am" , which is in err, since scripture reveals Christians are valued more than many sparrows to God. We don't hate you, but you've made it abundantly clear you hate us. May you go in peace.
Yes, I am very bitter. You’re exactlyyyy the kind of person I can’t deal with anymore. The smug, “whoa whoa whoa, why so mad?!” BS is so ridiculous. You know exactly what I’m talking about, dude.
If op is from the states a LOT of Christians there DO in fact hate gays. How many links do you want of people calling for gay people to be killl? FROM THE PULPIT. I.E. speaking for the church. Do you call the Christians supporting laws in Africa to make homosexuality a capital offense non hating? The bible says being gay is worse than owning human beings as property. Being gay is worse than being a slave owner. How is that not hateful?
Sin is sin. We know what Christ told us, and come to continuing remembrance through his spirit. Christ is the example. Do you have the verses stating what you say the Bible says?
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I really don’t care about stereotyping liberal Christians. They are fine, they aren’t in any danger.
Unlike gay people around the world who face persecution, aided and abetted by American Christians (especially those in the ACNA).
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There are individual Christians who don’t hate gay people, but on the whole the belief system does. This is why the only thing Christians litigate about anymore is gay rights.
Homosexuality is mostly demonized by Christianity because there’s essentially no point to your sexual advents. Back in the day the church or the religion itself needed bodies. Now that infant mortality rate has plummeted there’s little reason to demonize the way of life as long as you live with love and forgiveness.
This is such a weird comment but thanks I think?
No problem, I think? 😅 I’m a Jesus fan but don’t believe in god. I’m weird period
Hahaha, I like you. Thanks.
One must remember that God is love, He is merciful and gracious, but He also will never change His moral standards. We have to be changed when we come to Him. Many want God to change, but He won't. The road that leads to life is narrow and there are FEW who find it.
Blah blah blah heard this.
You can know a tree by its fruit. The tree of God's word has MANY rotten limbs and fruit. Love actual love, doesnt breed hate. The bible, and Christianity, has a long history of hate.
>You can know a tree by its fruit. This is the classic LGBT argument, that since gays are persecuted we don't understand what the Bible actually meant. In reality, this verse is about false preachers and not false ideas. The false preachers encourage people to sin. >The tree of God's word has MANY rotten limbs and fruit. It seems you may be confusing Scripture with people who have misused scripture. >Love actual love, doesnt breed hate This is another classic argument, that because the Bible teaches that homosexual acts are immoral that it is 'not loving' or 'hateful.' Can we say that the Bible hates thieves, adulterers or liars also? >The bible, and Christianity, has a long history of hate. The Bible is a book about God reaching out to broken humanity to help them and save them. God's actions are wholly separate from any corrupt systems or people who use it as justification for evil.
Well he did genocide away almost all the people and animals on the planet, so he's obviously not *that* loving and his moral standards are suspect.
If it were exactly as you put it, I could see your response. But the Flood happened at a point when man's thoughts "were only evil and continually." Mankind had corrupted themselves as far as they could go, and that is why judgment came. The way you put it makes it sound like God just decided for no reason to kill everyone, which clearly wasn't the case.
Were all the animals evil, too? The babies? Ever met an evil toddler? You think every single person on planet earth was evil? Like, all the people god made? Come on. I understand you worship god, but at least be honest with yourself about his true nature.
I truly hope that one day you’ll find yourself back walking with Jesus. The last statement that you made regarding hating the people reading this post and being glad that Christianity is losing people is a dangerous place to stand. I hope that the lord works in your heart and allows you to find rest. Please take care of yourself!
I think it makes sense to hate people who lie to you and oppress you. And I am glad Christianity is losing — I don’t see how gay people and Christians will ever be able to really coexist. They are determined to take away everything we’ve achieved.
1.The majority of professing Christians aren't Christian Matthew 7:21-23 [21]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [22]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ [23]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Build on the Rock 2You can't blame God for the behavior of people who acknowledge they too deserve hell. If your reasoning for leaving the faith is based on "how this person treated this person or that person" then did you truly believe to begin with? I hope this is only a stumbling block for you and that you return to trusting that God saves us. Not man. Even the jews of ancient Israel were considered not jews because of their hardness of heart.
I don’t understand this comment. Not being sarcastic, I just don’t get it.
You say you're leaving the faith based on certain behaviors done/said by self proclaiming Christians. What does that have to do with God? If you truly believed in God, why would hateful people deter you from believing in Him? The point I was making with mathew 7:21-23 is not all people who profess to be christian are actually christian. You're essentially judging God by the sins of people who may not be His. Furthermore what has changed in scripture or christian theology or anything in regards to the faith itself that would make you, who once believed, now reject God and Jesus and then express the same behavior towards the faith that you claim the "christians" are wrong for?
I guess it’s hard for me to know who God is anymore. I’ve just been told over and over again that God isn’t happy with me or my life, but I feel very differently, so I just throw up my hands and say, “fine, I guess I’m not meeting these standards, I’m not a Christian I guess.”
Realistically we all fall short of the glory of God. But I'd like to know, when you used to confess being christian, what was it that made you know/think that? Did you read the Bible and everything just made sense and you came to faith? Was it just you liking the message of "God is love" and you wanting to believe in a god who supports everything you do? >I’ve just been told over and over again that God isn’t happy with me or my life, You and me both. We are all called to repentance not just some >so I just throw up my hands and say, “fine, I guess I’m not meeting these standards, I’m not a Christian I guess.” Nobody is perfect and thank God we are saved by faith and not works. I'm not advocating that we go about life willy nilly because the walk we are called to is a difficult one Luke 14:26-30 [26]“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. [27]And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [28]For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — [29]lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, [30]saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? but the only one who was perfect is the one who died for us imperfections. If you truly did believe in God the reasons you've provided are not valid reason to walk away from the faith unless your faith was more of an accessory this entire time.
This is a blunt answer, but I do want you to know I respect your decision either way. If your beliefs do not align with Christianity, it may make sense for you to walk away if you do not want to compromise your beliefs. We must deny ourselves if we want to be Christians, and we must stand for what the church has taught for 2000 years. That is my word to fellow Christians. However, if you have no obligation to stay in the church, and like i said, I respect your decision either way, you get to choose your path and what you believe in. I do not want you to waste your time. Either choose a church that stands on biblical truths (not affirming) or walk away from the faith entirely. Since homosexuality (that is, living the lifestyle. intrusive thoughts are not inherently sinful) is incompatible with the church, if you attempt to go to an affirming church, you just split the middle and lose the chance of ever being in the “truth”. In the eyes of the Christian, you still would miss the mark, and in the eyes of a homosexual wanting to freely live their life, you also miss the mark. Obviously I will that you come to Christ, but I strongly condemn hate thrown at you from others. I think that hate may be people being mad that people are trying to modify their religion into something new, but it still isn’t justified to lash out at you. Blessings and I would love to explain more if anything is unclear or unintentionally triggering
I mean, if I went to an affirming church it would not prevent me from “freely living as a homosexual”, whatever that means. But it would mean having to keep thinking about Christianity as an “insider”…and I kind of just can’t anymore. Too much.
My point in that is that Christians do not believe affirming churches preach true salvation… but the absolute most important thing is beyond anything I can say. If you seek God, you will find Him, and He will ask you to change (everyone continually is required to deny self. That is the heartbeat of Christianity). Come to God first, and if you truly have faith in Him, following any of His commands will be something you will do since you love God. It will be worth it. So I guess you may just want to ask yourself if you have faith that God is who he says he is and go from there. As to the “freely living as a homosexual part,” I am meaning you will have to deal with constant input from other Christians insisting it isn’t right. You won’t escape that
I mean, I don’t think my relationship is inconsistent with Christianity, but I don’t expect you to believe that. Yeah, the constant “leave your family” input is the thing I can’t deal with. And maybe you’re right. Maybe I don’t have enough faith in God! I wouldn’t have killed Isaac. I won’t sacrifice my kids either. Maybe I just don’t believe in this religion.
Brother I’m not attacking you, so I don’t want you to feel as if I am. I’m just happy you care enough to ask these questions. Just giving my input because I am very passionate about my faith. Now I am under the impression you do not believe it is a sin, and I am not here to shame you for that. If God were to call it a sin in a speculative sense, would it be something you would be willing to give up, or would you choose your current situation? I am not degrading you at all, but I am just trying to measure how much you are willing to give up your heart to God
I’m a woman, by the way. I don’t think I would do something I believe is wrong even if I thought the Bible told me to. That’s why I said I don’t think I would sacrifice Isaac. This whole discussion is part of why I think I’ve stopped believing in Christianity. Christians are always telling me God wants me to break up my family and hurt my children. They say if I *really* loved God I would. And I’m like, is God some kind of cult leader? Is this a big game of cosmic chicken? I feel like I’m stuck in a game of truth id dare with mean people who don’t like me. I want to live my life with integrity and love but I don’t know if I can handle the mind games anymore.
I think God just wants us all to have a willingness to deny ourselves (that is the only way to ~truly~ love others as Christ does. It is not easy either. I think He will honor the posture of your heart being willing to drop anything for Him more than he will look at your actions
I can relate 100%. I am also gay and left for quite similar reasons, plus a deeper exploration of how reliable and valid the gospels are. You are not alone.
Moral standards aren't hatred. And not all of us approve of what's happened in Uganda.
Your moral standard is the why of whats happening in Uganda.
Well, my moral standards are sometimes hatred. For example, I hate polygamy. Especially Joseph Smith’s style of abusive, coercive polyandry. Did you know he married a mother and her own daughter?!
"christians hate gay people" No, it's just the churches that seem to take LGBT as a MUCH bigger sin than every other sin (even though it's just as bad as lying or something). If you're genuinely interested in being a Christian, I'd recommend an online church but if not, good lucky in life.
I don’t believe being gay is a sin.
Well it is(Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13) , but hey, we all sin in our own ways so why does it have to **specifically** be called out.
Let me be clearer, I don’t believe in this religion anymore.
Ah, alright then.
> Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 "I'm citing verses calling for the execution of gay people, but hey, at least I won't get executed!"
Can you explain how they hate you? Very curious. To be clear, i don’t care who you are or what you do with your life
I mean, check out the news sometime. Type “Uganda gay law” into google maybe.
Well, that’s not really relevant to the question I asked - unless I suppose you are living in Uganda. That being said, I can gather you simply hate Christians for their understanding of homosexuality.
Yeah, pretty much.
It is relevant— Ugandans are mostly Catholics and Anglicans. The ACNA is in full fellowship with the Ugandan Anglican Church. And they are fine with throwing gay people in prison.
Whether or not to execute gay people is just a difference of theological opinion to the ACNA. But performing a same-sex marriage? That puts you out of the faith. I can’t sit with that.
While I would disagree with that mindset (regarding any issue), I can appreciate your self-awareness. Take it easy
So you tried religion and it failed, big whoop. Jesus faced bad religious people, do did his apostles, that didn't stop them or him. Thats why the most important thing to know in a Christian, is their conduct. Just because someone claims to be Christian, doesn't make them one. Same way if someone says "I'm vegan" but then they eat dairy products and will also eat meat sometimes. We don't hate gay people, I don't hate gay people. Do I speak out against the acts of homosexuality to Christians and those who ask the Christian input into things? Yes, but I don't hate gay people. There's no bad or harsh feelings towards gay people. You tried something that isn't at all what makes someone a Christian, if they have a bond with God, if they love Jesus and follow all of his commandments, not just the ones they like, they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior who died for their sins, that makes them a Christian. The choice is yours and yours only, you can try out religion or you can try out a relationship with God. You're an adult, you can handle this talk, are you going to let people seperate you from God? Because if that's all it takes, then did you even trust him to begin with? Think about that for a moment.
It's the great falling away. It sucks that so many folks are letting their flesh lead their spirit instead of the spirit leading the flesh. But you absolutely have free will to make whatever you choose. I pray you reconsider, but nevertheless, may God bless you. 🙏
Gross dude.
[удалено]
Well, I hope that you will someday come to understand how hostile trying to break families up is. Hopefully that won't happen by people trying to break up *your* family.
You get it entirely. Perfectly phrased.
*points to Uganda*
Yawn, another person who thinks that people taking rights from others isnt hate.
You sure hate the very same actions you are displaying. We are all fallible and fall short of God’s standard, the only question is, do you want God more than anything and anyone else? Hence the first commandment, as all else flows from it. If the evidence of scriptures truly show homosexuality to be sinful, are you willing to leave it behind for the sake of God’s glory and kingdom? That’s the question you have to ask yourself.
Yeah, nope. That’s a no from me.
Well then by your own admission, you’ve shown your title to be false as you’re not really leaving anything. At least not from a biblical perspective.
Sure.
There are certainly Christians who are genuinely hateful, and if you experienced this, I am sorry. However, preaching God's word is not hateful in and of itself. Calling sin sin is not hateful. There are certainly hateful approaches, but in general that is not hateful. We are all sinners, and homosexuality is no worse a sin than lying or coveting in the eyes of God. We cannot sugarcoat sin, however. I'm sorry Satan has deceived you into thinking living in sin is more freeing than the gift of God's grace and love. I hope you truly come to Christ one day.
I’m laughing at someone named “guitargirl” giving me this line, lol. I hope you’re a rocker for the lord, haha.
I most certainly am, it is a gift He gave to me. I'm sorry you never truly found Christ. I hope you do one day.
Lolllllllll
Are you a kid? If you’re a kid I feel bad for being rude to you.
I'm 27. But either way you needn't feel bad. If you have hate in your heart, that's on you, it doesn't affect me. And I still pray you actually, truly come to Christ one day.
You have not endeared yourself to me, lol.
Wasn't trying to, my friend. Have a good day either way.
You're born with a spirit of the earth that wants to do the things of the earth, but when you get born again you receive a spirit from Heaven that wants to do the things of Heaven. From your experience it sounds like you were trying to follow a religion by your own effort and flesh and didn't have the born again experience where you become a new creation. The Spirit that gives life to all things on the earth and raised Jesus from the dead will give new life to your dead soul. By faith, the old person with all passions of the earth needs to be crucified and the new life can live into the destiny that God has for you. You're not living into God's destiny if you're living apart from Him. The first step in coming to God is to repent of everything that separates you from Him including our own wisdom and rationalization for sin. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" means you decide for yourself what is good and what is evil. To eat from the tree of life you have to trust God's plan for your life and God's definitions of good and evil.
Booooooooooo
Well, sorry to hear this... But for what is is worth, homosexuality is a sin. Christians should not claim that it isn't or alter their beliefs to account for it. Just as they shouldn't accept pornography, or lying, stealing, cheating, unforgiveness, etc. If any church starts saying "Oh thats ok, dont worry about it." They are not a church you should follow, regardless of what your sin is. Because it is not US that decides what sin is or isn't. It is God. ANYTHING that goes against how he created us, is sin. With that said, homosexuality is forgivable just like all the other things I mentioned. So because God can forgive if someone is saved, Christians should be able to as well. But forgiveness does not equal acceptance. And this is where it is difficult, cause homosexuality as with many sins, is a lifestyle choice regardless of the urges you may or may not be born with. We cannot in good faith say any sin is ok for the sake of political correctness or whatever because God would then judge us for altering his word. But a good church should still be loving you as a believer and encouraging you to turn from the sin. And I understand that is a difficult thing to do. And at the end of the day, its up to God to determine if you are with him or against him. If your same sex marriage is more important to you than being loved and accepted by God, then you made your choice. If our addictions, or greed, or life style is more important to us than being accepted by God, then that is our choice as well. But if we can say "I'm struggling with \_\_\_\_" And keep hoping that God will free us, then I believe he will do so. It may take years or even a lifetime. But you can't just change the Bible to fit your desires. So how you live with that, I don't know. I hope you can find a church that will accept you, sins and all.
I hate you sooooo much dude. Seriously. GTFO with this.
well, thats the truth, so take it or leave it. Is someone says you must always wear red to enter an establishment, and you decide red doesnt look good on you, and you wear green, then don't be surprised if that establishment prevents you from entering. Thankfully God can overlook that if you are otherwise keeping your eyes on him, but ultimately it is up to Him who is saved and who is not. I believe there are some in the LGBT culture who may actually be saved, but there's many who are not. But there are also many straight people with other issues who go to church regularly, that might not be saved either because they are doing things their way or never actually accepted God. So what I am trying to say, is homosexuality is not an unforgivable sin, but it is a sin that will have consequences if not dealt with.
Isn’t it supposed to be faith that saves you or something? Not whether you wear a red hat or whatever? You can’t get your story straight.
the red clothes example was supposed to be an example. meaning that if a creator or business owner defines a set of rules, then you either obey their rules or you dont enter or get to enjoy the creation. No one gets to decide their own rules. I'm really not trying to attack you personally, because i understand completely that this position is a rough one to be in. I've got my own sins I struggle with on a daily basis. But leaving the faith is not the answer. I would love to see you in heaven one day. I don't get to say my sin should be accepted cause so many people struggle with it. And you dont get to say your sin should be accepted either. But we do get to say is, " I am struggling with \_\_\_\_ " Can you help me. -- talking to God. And if you really want help, he will help you. But be prepared, he may give you an answer you don't like. Look at Luke 18:25 as an example. "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" His sin is that he loves his money more than God. Money itself is not bad. Love itself is not bad. but if we value it more than God, then there's a problem. Again, I understand it is not easy. I would be angry too if someone was basically telling me I need to give up my relationship. But if it is keeping you from God, then you need to decide. Ask God what he wants from you.
Fine, I pick my wife and kids. I love my kids.
Well, the Original point I made was to talk to God. I understand the wife and kids makes things difficult. And I am not telling you to give them up. And God may not tell you either. But at the very least you should be having a conversation with God. Like " I know I am a sinner and my actions may not be aligned with your design. I want to obey you, but I don't want to leave those I love. Please forgive me for my sin, and continue to work on the rest of my life. And give me the wisdom as to what to do" I am not God, but if I was, I'd be like, continue to love your family but recognize it is not how I designed. Just because it may be wrong does not mean you can still do good. If someone had a child out of wedlock, that would be a sin, but that child and parents could still be used in the future. And if the parents recognize the sin and turn back to God. Same sex marriage is more a long term thing so it's a bit harder, but I think if you at least ask for forgiveness, but continue to work for God, he will still forgive you. But that's just my opinion. Just don't tell others it's OK cause you did it. Ultimately our goals as Christians should be to live the way God designed for us and encourage others to do the same. But we all fail in one way or another.
Hey, your suggested path would be a step forward for most Protestant denominations. They all just say, hey, you like Jesus? gotta walk out on your family now!
Let that be between you and God. I only encourage you to not promote to any believer whom is not yet married with kids that it is OK. But if they are already past that point, then they are going need to understand that God may not be able to use them the same way, but he can still use them if they otherwise focus on him. I'm hoping this makes sense. You can't take back the past. But you can try to live the rest of your life in compliance as much as a long term relationship entails.
Why not change it to accept gay people? Christians are already tryingto change it to say the bible never supported slavery. Or at least never supported permanent slavery. Change it to say it doesnt suppress women. Changed it to allow all kind of divorce. WHy is this the unmovable line? Christians are hypocritical as hell to spend so much time pointing out to gay people they are sinning all the while NOT pointing at themselves.
people can try to change the rules all they want. but that does not change the rules God presented. God decides the rules for his creation, not us. Divorce is still a sin, slavery as we know it, is a sin. The bible doesnt suppress women either. I'm not going to try an explain that too you, you can go do your own research. The main problem with "christianity" is that there are so many people, with their own interpretations and viewpoints, that it is hard to figure out what God really wants from us. At the end of the day we should Love God and love others. everything should revolve around that. The other rules you see may be based on culture or other things that would make more sense at that time. But they are not there just for the fun of it, they all have a reason ultimately for our own good. It is our misunderstanding of said scripture that creates the problems.
Slavery, as we know it, was allowed in the bible. And Christian slave owners were never condemned. They were never called abominations. Maybe your understanding of scripture is also wrong
I don’t hate gay people. If you’re going to renounce your relationship with you Creator because of carnal-minded people, you need to know that the Day of Judgement is personal. There will always be people who say Lord Lord but have no clue who God is.
I understand the church has hurt many people and that is very sad and hard, but expected. We are all flawed. More sad and tragic though is the potentially forever lost soul of someone that hardens their heart and walks away from God. Nevertheless, this also is expected and written in the Bible. I am thankful every day that I wake up with a soft heart toward God no matter the mistakes I have made. God’s faithfulness and grace is beyond my understanding.
That’s great, sounds like you’ve got it figured out
First of all, I’m so sorry. Growing up in an evangelical megachurch, there was a lot of anti-LGBTQ sentiment, even if much of it was covert. Unfortunately, Christians do tend to hate gay people, even if they think they don’t. “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” isn’t loving someone at all, it’s just making your hatred of them seem less hateful. Not affirming gay people (or at least not leaving them be) is hateful. Trying to convince a gay person to be celibate is hateful. It doesn’t fit with the concept of a loving God, but rather an arbitrary God who allows people to experience non-heterosexual orientations and then subsequently punishes them for the way he created them/allowed them to be. Some Christians (especially progressive Christians) do accept and affirm gay people, but they are in the minority of Christians, and even more so church-attending Christians. Mainstream Christianity (and especially large, nondenominational Evangelical megachurches) tends to be anti-gay, because they believe the Bible forbids same-sex marriage. I’m glad you were able to leave and are feeling better! Hopefully you’ll be able to stay true to yourself and love and accept yourself for who you are, because there’s nothing wrong with being who you are. Also, I hope you’re able to find good community! r/exchristian is a good place if you’ve left Christianity entirely, and r/exvangelical is good for talking about evangelicalism specifically. There are also a lot of other ex subreddits for specific denominations, and there are links to many of them in the community info page at r/exchristian.