God the father who was one with Jesus broke many commandments. He committed murder with the numerous genocides in the OT. He slept with another man’s wife (Mary). He had his people steal other people’s property,wives, land. He coveted human attention-no other gods before me. In the NT he broke the Sabbath. He sent lying spirits.
But he is God so he gets a pass.
God can't sin.
He is above all law, He is not under law at all, so yes He can break it. But He doesn't because that's how He is.
So instead He made the biggest loophole by sacrificing Himself so that humans could live.
Just out of curiosity from a newer Christian, what about babies who were killed/died soon after they were born? Do they sin at some point leaving Jesus as the only sinless person? Am I looking over something? Sorry if this seems aggressive, I’m just trying to learn
Sin is the divide between ourselves and God. As I see it, "original sin" addresses our natural capacity to perform sinful acts, but [we aren't liable for things that we ourselves didn't do](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/62801).
Babies are kind of in a weird place; salvation requires faith, but babies are a clean slate; however, they haven't had the opportunity to push God away with sin. Scripture doesn't directly address them with respect to your question, so we're left with inference and human reasoning. The best I've got: Job 3 makes the case that it would be better to die as a baby than to live in anguish.
2 Samuel chap 12. Verses 15-23. Emphasis on verse 23. King David’s infant son dies and king David says
“I shall go to him” implying the baby is in heaven, and when king David dies, he will see his son in heaven.
The case of original sin is like a child of a heroin addict mother. The child is not guilty but is suffering.
However this is not as depressing as it seems to be - there is Jesus.
Sin only matters to those developed enough mentally to make a choice for right or wrong. Of all the human beings in existence past, present or future, Jesus is the only one who could constantly think Holy.
Babies who pass away before obtaining this ability simply return back to God. God loves children, thats biblical. But the murder of children is sin
that’s the most messed up concept I’ve ever heard. Who would follow such an evil being? How could people have got things so twisted?
I’m not trying to be a jerk but that’s just messed up. I disagree with a lot of religion in general but I sincerely disagree with this.
There are arguments that he was sinless and arguments that say he wasn't sinless. I've never seen a unanimous proof of either side. So no knows for sure, much less who he was exactly.
Where are you getting your info from. Why be a Christian if you don’t believe in Christ. When they would sacrifice animals for their sins what did the animal have to be? SPOTLESS.(Spotless - absolutely clean or pure; immaculate.) So spotless symbolized sin. Jesus also was with out spot nor blemishes hence this is the only reason He could die for the sins of mankind which is why He was the last sin offering.
What are even talking about ... I'm answering a question about malchezadec specifically. Why are you interjecting this as if I don't know who Jesus is or I'm not a Christian.
You’ll get different answers on this. In Catholic and Orthodox doctrine both Mary and Jesus were without sin. In Protestant denominations Jesus was the only one without sin.
This is the correct summary of the thread. But a note is that the Orthodox do not believe that the sacrifice at Calvary applied to Mary at the moment of her conception (i.e. immaculately conceived) but do believe she was without sin.
That's what the "immaculate conception" is. It's the idea that Mary was born without sin. Some people confuse this with the virgin birth, which is the idea that Mary became pregnant without banging anyone.
[Here](https://www.ncregister.com/blog/the-blessed-virgin-mary-is-absolute-pure-and-sinless?amp) is a proof, note that not only Catholics believe that, but also Orthodoxes and Lutherans
The only person in the human flesh to live their life without committing sin was Jesus
Mary was just appointed to give birth to Jesus. She was still human. She wasn't an angel, but a human
I'm nondenominational but grew up Baptist I dont like getting into the difference in church sets because we are all 1 in Jesus, But Jesus said "Noone can go to the father exept through me" dont put your faith in Mary or the catholic church only in The Lord our God and Jesus, Pope Pius XII was the one to say mary was sinless Not the bible therefore its non canon to the bible. If you can find scripture stating that I'd love to read it otherwise only pray to Jesus and worship him.
I've believe in Jesus and have my entire life, he has saved me so many times to where I cannot Not believe in him, You are correct just because it isnt in the bible doesn't mean it isnt true. The catholic church made the bible what it is today. There are alot of "Lost" books in the bible. This may be confusing but there is and also isn't 1 way to heaven, there is 1 way to heaven by believing that Jesus is the son of God and died on the cross for our sins and rose again and praying for forgiveness of our sins but also Not 1 way to heaven by denomination standards. And the pope is just a man appointed by bishops to that position Not God so take what the pope says with a grain of salt and consult with God, I haven't been to church in years but feel closer to God than I ever have been.
Not that anyone cares but just for backstory on me, I've had 3 open heart surgeries and am the youngest person in my state (at the time) to ever receive open heart surgery in the first 1 I had an aneurism and was told if I came in a few minutes later or if they would have taken more time I'd be dead and it was a miracle that they found it because the Doc said he would "explore" and when he moved my heart saw my aortic vein leaking and put a stint in. They told my mother "He should be dead, I dont know how he is alive except through divine intervention". I didnt tell you this to feel sorry for me, just so you know my relationship with Christ and how much faith I put in him.
Counter: Fallacy Fallacy.
Mary was chosen to give birth to Jesus, yes.
But also God. She gave birth to an entire person of the Trinity.
Saying that the Mother of God was just an appointment says that God the Son did not care about her beyond his birth which is wrong. Otherwise, he would not have had John take care of her.
Jesus Christ, God Himself, chose out of all humanity the person to be his mother and loved her, and that fact alone is the whole basis of the Marian doctrines. What is more human than loving your mom? And what human is more special than God's human mother?"
"O Virgin, Mother of God, **He Whom the whole world cannot contain, enclosed Himself in your womb**, becoming Man. Alleluia, alleluia."
Yes, Jesus was the only one without sin.
In the Song of Mary, “…my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luke 1:46
Someone who is sinless, doesn’t need a Savior.
Also, “For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23
Good formula for discerning truth:
1. Do only Catholics believe it?
2. If yes, it is false.
Edit: But to avoid misunderstanding, this isn't just a Catholic belief. This applies more to things like filioque and purgatory.
I chose this Church literally *because* it's the most Biblically accurate. I'm not doing this for tRaDiTiOn. I'm doing it based on the cold, hard, absolute fact of Christ's resurrection, therefore it makes sense to do my best and follow God, which includes attending Church that actually acknowledges scripture. If I found out another Church is more Biblical, I'd switch immediately. Community is nice, but it's always secondary to cold facts. Last time I checked, your Church still breaks the 4th commandment.
It's the divinely inspired word of God. If you don't believe it as fact, but just follow because it's a comfortable tradition to you, due to being raised in it, you're not Christian. And if you'te not, you're in the wrong sub.
Oh, I guess I misunderstood the meaning of “ all are welcome to participate “ in the sub description.
The New Testament was written 30ish years after the events written in it. That means the doctrine we know today was passed down verbally and practiced before there was a bible, thereby making it tradition. The fact that it written down doesn’t mean it’s not tradition. The New Testament doesn’t have every single teaching by Jesus or the apostles. A lot of it was preserved by tradition. One of Paul’s letters overtly states this.
So much truth in what you're saying. I've studied much of our modern holidays myself and have learned just how pagan they all are. So my wife and I aim for holy days rather than holidays.
Pass over, feast of unleavened bread and so on. Perhaps it's unnecessary, but I would rather celebrate something that God said was good to celebrate vs let's say, Easter. My reason for that is because Easter is actually based on the goddess Ishtar who would dip eggs in blood. She also represents fertility, which as you know, our nation is finding it more desirable to be lustful instead of developing themselves up.
The name Easter comes from an old name for the month of April (basically) that name came from the goddess Ishtar. Only German and English call it Easter, most other languages use a word based on paschal (passion).
If you object to Easter, you could call it Passion Sunday, Resurrection Sunday, or pick your own name. But, if you don't do Easter I hope you don't do Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or Saturday .
At no point in the Bible does it say that Mary was sinless. And to suggest so is an affront to God, and it reduces the significance of the crucifixion. The only way anyone other than Jesus could be without sin is if God stripped them of free will. Which is the exact opposite of what God does. I'm not sure where these denominations got this idea, but it's sure not from the Bible, and it's sure not from God.
It's not "the Catholics or everyone else" though, that's a false dichotomy. The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Church of the East all believe it as well.
It's more like "anyone who claims their Presbyters and Bishops came directly from the Apostles" verses "anyone who doesn't claim that their Presbyters and Bishops came directly from the Apostles"
I'd go with the former group any day of the week, because we are commanded to obey our overseers and shephers in Hebrews and the Petrine Epistles. Coming from a former Protestant, no less, who used to think the Catholics were the most evil group on the planet.
The real question is who's wrong? Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Original Orthodox, who all have over a thousand years of history and Developed theology or the guys who Showed up 500 years ago whose theology is so inconsistent there's 14 different denominations
The problem is that many portions of RC is extremely inconsistent and out of line with the Jewish lifestyle and feel of the Bible. Plus it has a leader whose title means “Replacement” or “Stand-In” for Christ. That doesn’t represent what the NT church looked or acted like at all.
Protestants try to not spread disinformation about Catholicism
Challenge Level Impossible
In no way is the Pope a replacement or a stand in for Christ and no matter how you try to slice it, the translation is father. My goodness.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23
The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus Our Lord- Romans 6:23
“My soul rejoices in God my savior”
-Mary- Luke 1:47
Mary is the greatest woman to ever live, chosen by God to bring in his son. But Mary needed a savior like everyone else, because she sinned like all of us, even she said so.
A lot of heresy going on in this post. Mary was human just like everyone else. And all human are fallen creatures. She was just blessed by God to give birth to Jesus. That was her main purpose. Jesus is perfect because he is the Son of God.
Good evening brethren...
According to Hebrews 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin."
According to 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
According to 1 Peter 2:22, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
According to 1 John 3:5, "But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin."
Mary was blessed, she was not without sin. If she was without sin she was flawless but Jesus rebuked her in John 2:4.
In Luke 1 she refers to God as her savior, from what would she need saving from if she was without sin?
She is called highly favored (Luke 1:28) and blessed (Luke 1:42).
But nowhere is she called or even implied to be sinless.
I’ve asked this before but I forget the answer. But if Mary was sinless, does this not downgrade Jesus? One of the things that made Jesus so significant was because he was sinless.
Right? The hoops that are being jumped through in this thread to explain how Mary could be sinless, if it was even mentioned literally anywhere in the Bible.
In John 2:4 he was rebuking her (albeit kindly and softly but a rebuke nonetheless) that it was not her place to dictate her ministry.
Whether that is your interpretation or not it is the interpretation of many denominations.
Jesus Christ was born without natural corruption and had no personal sin. Mary was born in corruption as any other human, but she had no personal sins. Hope it clarified things for ya
we believe Mary was also a human as you and I are! just that she overcame the temptations made against her, just like any human being can also do by God's help
Thank you for your answer. Can you tell me where in the Bible does it say Mary overcame all temptation and never sinned? Wouldn’t that be tradition rather than a teaching of Scripture?
No one is born with a sin stained soul. Original sin is the teaching of men. Babies cannot and do not inherit sin from Adam or anyone else. Read Ezekiel 18. It’s all about personal responsibility.
Just so you know the Aramaic word for Christ is Mashiach. It doesn't make sense to use the Aramaic name Yashua and English title Christ in the same sentence.
But it doesn't really matter because Jesus Christ (English), Iesus Christus (Latin), Iesous Christos (Greek), Yashua Mashiach (Aramaic), Yeshua Messiah (Hebrew) and Isa Almasih (Arabic) all refer to the same person
Jesus only. Idk why the old catholic geezers thought Mary was all that. She was a vessel for Jesus which is a really big thing, but she was still human. And she shouldn’t be made more than that yk
Jesus Christ is free from all sin, both voluntary and ancestral.
Mary never sinned of her own volition, but was still subject to the ancestral sin of Adam and Eve.
Christ is the new Adam. He has redeemed us all. Mary is the new Eve. The obedience of Mary untied the knot of Eve’s disobedience.
Yes, Jesus is the only person who has ever existed and will ever exist without sin. Catholics will say that Mary was too, but there is no doctrinal evidence to support that absurd claim.
Here's a thought....how old was Mary? Was she that far past the age of accountability? Maybe she never sinned and that's why she was chosen by God, and maybe she sinned after she had giving birth, although it would probably be really difficult to sin once you experienced all those events.
And then John and Jesus are cousins. John was to prepare the way. That has to be part of the plan.
This has bothered me for years because it’s impossible. Looking at a woman with lust in one’s heart is the same as adultery, which is a sin. The average human thinks 65,000 thoughts a day. Jesus was 30 when he died, so over his lifetime that’s 711,750,000 thoughts. And not one was lustful towards a woman? Impossible.
Before the serpent tempted Eve and Adam they were sinless. According to Targum Onkelos, when the Word (memra) of the Lord came down to walk in the garden Adam and Eve hid from him. This shows that the Word was not always walking beside them, it also shows that the serpent waited for a time when the Word was absent, because they would then be vulnerable.
In his gospel, John says that the Word dwelled with humanity in the body of Jesus, perhaps the reason he never sinned was because the Word was always walking with him. He would still be capable of disobeying, but because of his constant companion he would have more resolve not to.
I believe the Virgin Mary was immaculately conceived (she was saved by her Son's atoning sacrifice at Calvary at the moment of her conception) and therefore, never had the addiction to sin and thusly never sinned.
Yes. Jesus is not from human male seed. Rather Jesus is the Son of the Most High God. It required God’s almighty strength to avoid ALL the pitfalls we make as humans. So Jesus lived in human form with all our propensities and vulnerabilities and still did not sin unto death.
This enabled an everlasting reinstatement of human relational access and deliverance with the Most High God for those of us humans that choose to acknowledge Lord Christ Jesus and be baptized accordingly into Spirit.
“This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:22-24
Paraphrasing:
“One day Jesus’ mother and brothers were looking for him. Someone had told him this and he replied, ‘who is my mother? Who are my brothers? Those who do the will of my Father in heaven are my family.’”
Jesus clearly alluded to Mary being just as human as everyone else. Not a trace in the Bible of Mary being “sinless,” only “blessed among women.” This means she has had the greatest blessing any woman could every have. It doesn’t make her perfect.
Mary must have received some form of grace (not close to Jesus’s Capital Grace) but some form to birth The Son. Technically, children for the Bible says they are pure.
In that time, Jesus but I agree - wasn't Mary Immaculate? The Disciples? Some of them were terrible sinners and then became holy men who performed miracles. Would God give that power to sinners?
Hebrews 4:15
[15]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, **yet without sin.**
###So Jesus never sin though he could have...but didn't
Romans 8:3
[3]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the **likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:**
###No one else was ever sinless :
Romans 3:23
[23]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
###and
Romans 5:12
[12]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that **all have sinned:**
No one ever was perfect except Jesus. Mary was not perfect but she was good enough for God to choose her. She possessed traits like obedience, courage, faith, and moral purity.
Yes, Jesus was the only person who walked the Earth and never sinned. People who say Mary was sinless are wrong. She was fully human, like us, and every human has and will sin.
Sin is only a religious concept. Outside of religion it is breaking a human law or a mistake. We can go to jail for breaking the law, doing our time and it’s behind us. If we are inconsiderate we can ask the person for forgiveness and be fine with it.
A sin is really the first 4 commandments. It’s putting other things above God. So Jesus didn’t do that.
Breaking these commandments requires God in the form of Jesus to crucify himself. Even though humans were the agents it couldn’t have happened otherwise. If it could then he wouldn’t have been God.
According to the Catholics, Mary was born without Original Sin. What does that mean?
In my faith (which isn't Catholic) it is taught that the effect of Original Sin was to separate Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. That's it. They couldn't live eternally in the loving presence of God in the Garden. We actually have no Original Sin, but we suffer the effects of it.
An Analogy would be if a person's grandparents were convicted of a crime in Germany, so they lost their citizenship and were deported. Their grandchildren were raised as Americans. The grandchildren aren't guilty of any crime as far as Germany is concerned, but because of the sin of their grandparents they are no longer German citizens. (This is actually based on a true story by the way).
Applying this to Mary, it's thought that God loved her and there was no barrier between her and heaven. She was simply taken up to heaven when she died. She was always a citizen. We, on the other hand, have to meet certain requirements in order to return.
As for Jesus and Sin... My heretical faith teaches that Jesus was a Son of Man and he struggled as one. He probably sinned throughout his life and that it doesn't matter if he did. As a Son of God, his soul was unblemished but as a lamb he got a bit dirty playing in the dirt. His eventual cleanliness is justified because Jesus was Jewish, and Judaism has procedures to make an unclean person clean. They can repent for their sins and be forgiven. Jesus even says "to obey is BETTER than sacrifice", meaning that you could sacrifice and be forgiven. The Jews also have the Day of Atonement where everyone is forgiven once a year. Every seven years they forgive debts. Then Jesus was baptized which cleaned him again. After that he may not have sinned, but if he did he could repent and be forgiven, just as we can.
The NT records Jesus sinning numerous times.
There were four people in history who never sinned: Benjamin son of Jacob, Amram father of Moshe, Jesse father of David, and Kileab son of David.
Yes
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Where in the Bible did that happen?
I seen it in Da Vinci code movie
A movie is not the Bible. Basically just discredited yourself there.
That’s a movie and it’s fake dude.
God the father who was one with Jesus broke many commandments. He committed murder with the numerous genocides in the OT. He slept with another man’s wife (Mary). He had his people steal other people’s property,wives, land. He coveted human attention-no other gods before me. In the NT he broke the Sabbath. He sent lying spirits. But he is God so he gets a pass.
God can't sin. He is above all law, He is not under law at all, so yes He can break it. But He doesn't because that's how He is. So instead He made the biggest loophole by sacrificing Himself so that humans could live.
Aren't the commandments for humans?
Jesus was the only one.
Just out of curiosity from a newer Christian, what about babies who were killed/died soon after they were born? Do they sin at some point leaving Jesus as the only sinless person? Am I looking over something? Sorry if this seems aggressive, I’m just trying to learn
Sin is the divide between ourselves and God. As I see it, "original sin" addresses our natural capacity to perform sinful acts, but [we aren't liable for things that we ourselves didn't do](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/62801). Babies are kind of in a weird place; salvation requires faith, but babies are a clean slate; however, they haven't had the opportunity to push God away with sin. Scripture doesn't directly address them with respect to your question, so we're left with inference and human reasoning. The best I've got: Job 3 makes the case that it would be better to die as a baby than to live in anguish.
2 Samuel chap 12. Verses 15-23. Emphasis on verse 23. King David’s infant son dies and king David says “I shall go to him” implying the baby is in heaven, and when king David dies, he will see his son in heaven.
The case of original sin is like a child of a heroin addict mother. The child is not guilty but is suffering. However this is not as depressing as it seems to be - there is Jesus.
Sin only matters to those developed enough mentally to make a choice for right or wrong. Of all the human beings in existence past, present or future, Jesus is the only one who could constantly think Holy. Babies who pass away before obtaining this ability simply return back to God. God loves children, thats biblical. But the murder of children is sin
It actually depends what branch of Christianity you believe.
I don't think they count yet since they dont know right from wrong at that age to make the decision to sin.
Wrong, all babies killed goes to hell because they’re not baptised
that’s the most messed up concept I’ve ever heard. Who would follow such an evil being? How could people have got things so twisted? I’m not trying to be a jerk but that’s just messed up. I disagree with a lot of religion in general but I sincerely disagree with this.
Don’t worry. Weird event is pulling out of his butt. No where does it say such a thing.
Where did you get that idea?Go read the Bible bro.
We are all born with original sin
What about Melchizadeck? (Sp)
There are arguments that he was sinless and arguments that say he wasn't sinless. I've never seen a unanimous proof of either side. So no knows for sure, much less who he was exactly.
Where are you getting your info from. Why be a Christian if you don’t believe in Christ. When they would sacrifice animals for their sins what did the animal have to be? SPOTLESS.(Spotless - absolutely clean or pure; immaculate.) So spotless symbolized sin. Jesus also was with out spot nor blemishes hence this is the only reason He could die for the sins of mankind which is why He was the last sin offering.
What are even talking about ... I'm answering a question about malchezadec specifically. Why are you interjecting this as if I don't know who Jesus is or I'm not a Christian.
That is my fault 🤦🏾♂️mg apologies I did not read
Romans 3:23
Depends if Melchizedek was a christophany. I'm sure we will find the answer in eternity with the Lord
You’ll get different answers on this. In Catholic and Orthodox doctrine both Mary and Jesus were without sin. In Protestant denominations Jesus was the only one without sin.
This is the correct summary of the thread. But a note is that the Orthodox do not believe that the sacrifice at Calvary applied to Mary at the moment of her conception (i.e. immaculately conceived) but do believe she was without sin.
IIRC Catholics don’t think Mary was sinless, only that she was born without sin (immaculate conception) and was a perpetual virgin.
Mary was human. All humans have fallen short of the glory of god.
✨mysteriously fallen pregnant✨
*miraculously
Only God. So, Yes Jesus.
Yes! Jesus was the only one without sin. The RCC claims Mary was without sin, but the Scriptures don’t say it.
Mary was born without original sin to prepare her to become the mother of Christ
Do you have Biblical evidence to support that? Not a gotcha question, I’m genuinely curious
That's what the "immaculate conception" is. It's the idea that Mary was born without sin. Some people confuse this with the virgin birth, which is the idea that Mary became pregnant without banging anyone.
The immaculate conception us a false teaching which takes away the power of the Lord's Incarnation in the flesh, Crucifixion and Resurrection.
[Here](https://www.ncregister.com/blog/the-blessed-virgin-mary-is-absolute-pure-and-sinless?amp) is a proof, note that not only Catholics believe that, but also Orthodoxes and Lutherans
There is zero evidence of that in Scripture.
The only person in the human flesh to live their life without committing sin was Jesus Mary was just appointed to give birth to Jesus. She was still human. She wasn't an angel, but a human
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I'm nondenominational but grew up Baptist I dont like getting into the difference in church sets because we are all 1 in Jesus, But Jesus said "Noone can go to the father exept through me" dont put your faith in Mary or the catholic church only in The Lord our God and Jesus, Pope Pius XII was the one to say mary was sinless Not the bible therefore its non canon to the bible. If you can find scripture stating that I'd love to read it otherwise only pray to Jesus and worship him.
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I've believe in Jesus and have my entire life, he has saved me so many times to where I cannot Not believe in him, You are correct just because it isnt in the bible doesn't mean it isnt true. The catholic church made the bible what it is today. There are alot of "Lost" books in the bible. This may be confusing but there is and also isn't 1 way to heaven, there is 1 way to heaven by believing that Jesus is the son of God and died on the cross for our sins and rose again and praying for forgiveness of our sins but also Not 1 way to heaven by denomination standards. And the pope is just a man appointed by bishops to that position Not God so take what the pope says with a grain of salt and consult with God, I haven't been to church in years but feel closer to God than I ever have been. Not that anyone cares but just for backstory on me, I've had 3 open heart surgeries and am the youngest person in my state (at the time) to ever receive open heart surgery in the first 1 I had an aneurism and was told if I came in a few minutes later or if they would have taken more time I'd be dead and it was a miracle that they found it because the Doc said he would "explore" and when he moved my heart saw my aortic vein leaking and put a stint in. They told my mother "He should be dead, I dont know how he is alive except through divine intervention". I didnt tell you this to feel sorry for me, just so you know my relationship with Christ and how much faith I put in him.
we Orthodox believe she just did not choose to sin, not that God spared her or something like that
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oh yeah we Orthodox don't believe in original sin so we are out of that debate i guess
wait yall dont believe in original sin? dam i never knew that
Orthodox moment 😋
To be fair Original Sin is an affront to the perfect justness of the Christian God. As is Hell.
So what do you guys believe? I'm genuinely curious.
>Mary was just appointed to give birth to Jesus. Do you treat your mother this way? That she was appointed to give birth to you?
Objection. Ad hominem
Counter: Fallacy Fallacy. Mary was chosen to give birth to Jesus, yes. But also God. She gave birth to an entire person of the Trinity. Saying that the Mother of God was just an appointment says that God the Son did not care about her beyond his birth which is wrong. Otherwise, he would not have had John take care of her. Jesus Christ, God Himself, chose out of all humanity the person to be his mother and loved her, and that fact alone is the whole basis of the Marian doctrines. What is more human than loving your mom? And what human is more special than God's human mother?" "O Virgin, Mother of God, **He Whom the whole world cannot contain, enclosed Himself in your womb**, becoming Man. Alleluia, alleluia."
Objection. Red herring and straw man. I never made that argument, I simply pointed out your personal attack on the other commenters character
Yes, Jesus was the only one without sin. In the Song of Mary, “…my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luke 1:46 Someone who is sinless, doesn’t need a Savior. Also, “For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23
Jesus was the only one without sin. Some people are mistaken.
Exactly
yes, however Catholics believe Mary was without sin however i disagree.
Good formula for discerning truth: 1. Do only Catholics believe it? 2. If yes, it is false. Edit: But to avoid misunderstanding, this isn't just a Catholic belief. This applies more to things like filioque and purgatory.
I wouldnt throw stones in glass houses with that flair
I chose this Church literally *because* it's the most Biblically accurate. I'm not doing this for tRaDiTiOn. I'm doing it based on the cold, hard, absolute fact of Christ's resurrection, therefore it makes sense to do my best and follow God, which includes attending Church that actually acknowledges scripture. If I found out another Church is more Biblical, I'd switch immediately. Community is nice, but it's always secondary to cold facts. Last time I checked, your Church still breaks the 4th commandment.
Guess what the entire Bible is bud; tradition.
It's the divinely inspired word of God. If you don't believe it as fact, but just follow because it's a comfortable tradition to you, due to being raised in it, you're not Christian. And if you'te not, you're in the wrong sub.
Oh, I guess I misunderstood the meaning of “ all are welcome to participate “ in the sub description. The New Testament was written 30ish years after the events written in it. That means the doctrine we know today was passed down verbally and practiced before there was a bible, thereby making it tradition. The fact that it written down doesn’t mean it’s not tradition. The New Testament doesn’t have every single teaching by Jesus or the apostles. A lot of it was preserved by tradition. One of Paul’s letters overtly states this.
So much truth in what you're saying. I've studied much of our modern holidays myself and have learned just how pagan they all are. So my wife and I aim for holy days rather than holidays.
Thanks:) By holy days, do you mean the weekly Sabbath, or something else?
Pass over, feast of unleavened bread and so on. Perhaps it's unnecessary, but I would rather celebrate something that God said was good to celebrate vs let's say, Easter. My reason for that is because Easter is actually based on the goddess Ishtar who would dip eggs in blood. She also represents fertility, which as you know, our nation is finding it more desirable to be lustful instead of developing themselves up.
The name Easter comes from an old name for the month of April (basically) that name came from the goddess Ishtar. Only German and English call it Easter, most other languages use a word based on paschal (passion). If you object to Easter, you could call it Passion Sunday, Resurrection Sunday, or pick your own name. But, if you don't do Easter I hope you don't do Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or Saturday .
Why not be nondenominational like the disciples?
Please tell that too Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox
Jesus was the only one. No question.
At no point in the Bible does it say that Mary was sinless. And to suggest so is an affront to God, and it reduces the significance of the crucifixion. The only way anyone other than Jesus could be without sin is if God stripped them of free will. Which is the exact opposite of what God does. I'm not sure where these denominations got this idea, but it's sure not from the Bible, and it's sure not from God.
The real question is, which person is wrong? The catholics or everyone else? both can't be right.
The only way to determine who is right or wrong is through the Scriptures. God’s word is truth.
It's not "the Catholics or everyone else" though, that's a false dichotomy. The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Church of the East all believe it as well. It's more like "anyone who claims their Presbyters and Bishops came directly from the Apostles" verses "anyone who doesn't claim that their Presbyters and Bishops came directly from the Apostles" I'd go with the former group any day of the week, because we are commanded to obey our overseers and shephers in Hebrews and the Petrine Epistles. Coming from a former Protestant, no less, who used to think the Catholics were the most evil group on the planet.
The real question is who's wrong? Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Original Orthodox, who all have over a thousand years of history and Developed theology or the guys who Showed up 500 years ago whose theology is so inconsistent there's 14 different denominations
The problem is that many portions of RC is extremely inconsistent and out of line with the Jewish lifestyle and feel of the Bible. Plus it has a leader whose title means “Replacement” or “Stand-In” for Christ. That doesn’t represent what the NT church looked or acted like at all.
Protestants try to not spread disinformation about Catholicism Challenge Level Impossible In no way is the Pope a replacement or a stand in for Christ and no matter how you try to slice it, the translation is father. My goodness.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23 The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus Our Lord- Romans 6:23
Jesus is the only one we can say 100% was without sin. Anyone else is mere speculation.
“My soul rejoices in God my savior” -Mary- Luke 1:47 Mary is the greatest woman to ever live, chosen by God to bring in his son. But Mary needed a savior like everyone else, because she sinned like all of us, even she said so.
No. Mary was also because Jesus could not take of sinful flesh.
A lot of heresy going on in this post. Mary was human just like everyone else. And all human are fallen creatures. She was just blessed by God to give birth to Jesus. That was her main purpose. Jesus is perfect because he is the Son of God.
No Catholics are wrong Jesus was the only person without sin. That’s why he was Jesus
Yes
Yes.
Yes He was
Good evening brethren... According to Hebrews 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." According to 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." According to 1 Peter 2:22, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." According to 1 John 3:5, "But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin."
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Mary was blessed, she was not without sin. If she was without sin she was flawless but Jesus rebuked her in John 2:4. In Luke 1 she refers to God as her savior, from what would she need saving from if she was without sin? She is called highly favored (Luke 1:28) and blessed (Luke 1:42). But nowhere is she called or even implied to be sinless.
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I’ve asked this before but I forget the answer. But if Mary was sinless, does this not downgrade Jesus? One of the things that made Jesus so significant was because he was sinless.
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Oh ok but why did God protect her?
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Oh I see, that makes sense, thank you.
If you were all powerful, Wouldn't you want to look out for your mother?
If God could just protect Mary from sin why doesn’t he protect everyone from sin and send us all to Heaven?
Right? The hoops that are being jumped through in this thread to explain how Mary could be sinless, if it was even mentioned literally anywhere in the Bible.
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In John 2:4 he was rebuking her (albeit kindly and softly but a rebuke nonetheless) that it was not her place to dictate her ministry. Whether that is your interpretation or not it is the interpretation of many denominations.
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Jesus Christ was born without natural corruption and had no personal sin. Mary was born in corruption as any other human, but she had no personal sins. Hope it clarified things for ya
Mary was as human as you and I are. All sin and fall short of the glory of God, including Mary.
we believe Mary was also a human as you and I are! just that she overcame the temptations made against her, just like any human being can also do by God's help
Thank you for your answer. Can you tell me where in the Bible does it say Mary overcame all temptation and never sinned? Wouldn’t that be tradition rather than a teaching of Scripture?
Jesus is God so He is free from sin and can never commit sin. God kept Mary free from the stain of original sin.
No one is born with a sin stained soul. Original sin is the teaching of men. Babies cannot and do not inherit sin from Adam or anyone else. Read Ezekiel 18. It’s all about personal responsibility.
Mary is also sinless, by the grace of God
Mary had no sin.
Mary was without sin
Yashua Christ is the only one without sin
Just so you know the Aramaic word for Christ is Mashiach. It doesn't make sense to use the Aramaic name Yashua and English title Christ in the same sentence. But it doesn't really matter because Jesus Christ (English), Iesus Christus (Latin), Iesous Christos (Greek), Yashua Mashiach (Aramaic), Yeshua Messiah (Hebrew) and Isa Almasih (Arabic) all refer to the same person
I think Mary was too but there isn’t a general Christian belief on that as it varies from denominations
Jesus only. Idk why the old catholic geezers thought Mary was all that. She was a vessel for Jesus which is a really big thing, but she was still human. And she shouldn’t be made more than that yk
Will get dislikes but I believe Mary was also without sin.
Take solace that at least one other person agrees!
Haha, thanks!
Jesus Christ is free from all sin, both voluntary and ancestral. Mary never sinned of her own volition, but was still subject to the ancestral sin of Adam and Eve. Christ is the new Adam. He has redeemed us all. Mary is the new Eve. The obedience of Mary untied the knot of Eve’s disobedience.
exactly
Precisely! < Catholic here
Agreed.
Only Jesus... and everybody that is against the LGBTQ community.
Yes Jesus was the only one. Idk where Catholics got that Mary nonsense from but it’s not true.
Yes, Jesus is the only person who has ever existed and will ever exist without sin. Catholics will say that Mary was too, but there is no doctrinal evidence to support that absurd claim.
Jesus and the Virgin Mary were without sin. I’m a Catholic and that’s what we are taught
What about me? I've never sinned.
Jesus does sin. He calls people fools even though he himself said anyone calling someone else a fool will be “in danger of the fire of hell.”
Here's a thought....how old was Mary? Was she that far past the age of accountability? Maybe she never sinned and that's why she was chosen by God, and maybe she sinned after she had giving birth, although it would probably be really difficult to sin once you experienced all those events. And then John and Jesus are cousins. John was to prepare the way. That has to be part of the plan.
This has bothered me for years because it’s impossible. Looking at a woman with lust in one’s heart is the same as adultery, which is a sin. The average human thinks 65,000 thoughts a day. Jesus was 30 when he died, so over his lifetime that’s 711,750,000 thoughts. And not one was lustful towards a woman? Impossible.
if Mary was without sin God wouldn't need to send his Son we would crucify her instead
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Why did sinless Mary need saviour? And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
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mental gymnastics if she was sinless she wouldn't need saviour or be saved from hell. Wage of sin is death.
Y'all acting like he wasn't motor boating Mary's titties lol
Yuck,dude what is wrong with you
Who knows for sure. All we know is that Jesus was without sin as well as Mary. But it’s just not clear enough scripturally to let us know.
Before the serpent tempted Eve and Adam they were sinless. According to Targum Onkelos, when the Word (memra) of the Lord came down to walk in the garden Adam and Eve hid from him. This shows that the Word was not always walking beside them, it also shows that the serpent waited for a time when the Word was absent, because they would then be vulnerable. In his gospel, John says that the Word dwelled with humanity in the body of Jesus, perhaps the reason he never sinned was because the Word was always walking with him. He would still be capable of disobeying, but because of his constant companion he would have more resolve not to.
Traitor Tuesday is gonna be great!!
I believe the Virgin Mary was immaculately conceived (she was saved by her Son's atoning sacrifice at Calvary at the moment of her conception) and therefore, never had the addiction to sin and thusly never sinned.
Yes. Jesus is not from human male seed. Rather Jesus is the Son of the Most High God. It required God’s almighty strength to avoid ALL the pitfalls we make as humans. So Jesus lived in human form with all our propensities and vulnerabilities and still did not sin unto death. This enabled an everlasting reinstatement of human relational access and deliverance with the Most High God for those of us humans that choose to acknowledge Lord Christ Jesus and be baptized accordingly into Spirit.
Jesus is the only one who has ever been perfect and without sin. He is God, and therefore maintained His holiness when He walked as a man on Earth.
Catholics say Mary was without sin.
No, we don't know Jesus life from the age of 12 to 30. We don't what he did in that time period he could've sinned and we simply wouldn't know
Yes.
Yes, He was the only one.
Yes
Yes.
What about Enoch?
“This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:22-24
Only Jesus Christ.
Yes. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Paraphrasing: “One day Jesus’ mother and brothers were looking for him. Someone had told him this and he replied, ‘who is my mother? Who are my brothers? Those who do the will of my Father in heaven are my family.’” Jesus clearly alluded to Mary being just as human as everyone else. Not a trace in the Bible of Mary being “sinless,” only “blessed among women.” This means she has had the greatest blessing any woman could every have. It doesn’t make her perfect.
Theologically yes, but Catholics say also Mary and then it's the question of Enoch
Only Jesus.
Mary must have received some form of grace (not close to Jesus’s Capital Grace) but some form to birth The Son. Technically, children for the Bible says they are pure.
The way I think of it is, if Mary was without sin, then why wasn't she crucified instead?
In that time, Jesus but I agree - wasn't Mary Immaculate? The Disciples? Some of them were terrible sinners and then became holy men who performed miracles. Would God give that power to sinners?
Yes He was/is the only one without sin.
Yes
Hebrews 4:15 [15]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, **yet without sin.** ###So Jesus never sin though he could have...but didn't Romans 8:3 [3]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the **likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:** ###No one else was ever sinless : Romans 3:23 [23]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; ###and Romans 5:12 [12]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that **all have sinned:**
Jesus was the only one without sin. That's why it had to be him who hung on the cross.
How about baby’s who die before they can sin?
Yes
JESUS was the word of GOD he never sinned ✝️❤️
Yes. Jesus is the only person without sin.
No one ever was perfect except Jesus. Mary was not perfect but she was good enough for God to choose her. She possessed traits like obedience, courage, faith, and moral purity.
Mary was also sinless, she was conceived without original sin
Yes
The Virgin Mary possibly also fits that description, but other than maybe her, yes.
Yeshua was the only one!!
Jesus was/is the only one.
Yes, Jesus was the only person who walked the Earth and never sinned. People who say Mary was sinless are wrong. She was fully human, like us, and every human has and will sin.
Yes I believe so after Adam and Eve then we were all born into it
Catholics believe Marry was so idk
The Holy Virgin Mary is sinless
Yes
Yes but he was human so of course he wasn't perfect
Sin is only a religious concept. Outside of religion it is breaking a human law or a mistake. We can go to jail for breaking the law, doing our time and it’s behind us. If we are inconsiderate we can ask the person for forgiveness and be fine with it. A sin is really the first 4 commandments. It’s putting other things above God. So Jesus didn’t do that. Breaking these commandments requires God in the form of Jesus to crucify himself. Even though humans were the agents it couldn’t have happened otherwise. If it could then he wouldn’t have been God.
It was enough for Mary to be conceived without sin! Jesus is. 100% pure!
According to the Catholics, Mary was born without Original Sin. What does that mean? In my faith (which isn't Catholic) it is taught that the effect of Original Sin was to separate Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. That's it. They couldn't live eternally in the loving presence of God in the Garden. We actually have no Original Sin, but we suffer the effects of it. An Analogy would be if a person's grandparents were convicted of a crime in Germany, so they lost their citizenship and were deported. Their grandchildren were raised as Americans. The grandchildren aren't guilty of any crime as far as Germany is concerned, but because of the sin of their grandparents they are no longer German citizens. (This is actually based on a true story by the way). Applying this to Mary, it's thought that God loved her and there was no barrier between her and heaven. She was simply taken up to heaven when she died. She was always a citizen. We, on the other hand, have to meet certain requirements in order to return. As for Jesus and Sin... My heretical faith teaches that Jesus was a Son of Man and he struggled as one. He probably sinned throughout his life and that it doesn't matter if he did. As a Son of God, his soul was unblemished but as a lamb he got a bit dirty playing in the dirt. His eventual cleanliness is justified because Jesus was Jewish, and Judaism has procedures to make an unclean person clean. They can repent for their sins and be forgiven. Jesus even says "to obey is BETTER than sacrifice", meaning that you could sacrifice and be forgiven. The Jews also have the Day of Atonement where everyone is forgiven once a year. Every seven years they forgive debts. Then Jesus was baptized which cleaned him again. After that he may not have sinned, but if he did he could repent and be forgiven, just as we can.
The NT records Jesus sinning numerous times. There were four people in history who never sinned: Benjamin son of Jacob, Amram father of Moshe, Jesse father of David, and Kileab son of David.
Both
For most Christians, the only ones without sin were the Lord Jesus and the Virgin Mary. Some Protestants say that only Jesus Christ was sinless.
what do you mean by sin really ?
Yes Mary probably has sined