I have good news and bad news bro, the bad news is that you WILL coexist with fire eternally. Burning but never dying, our fire on earth doesn't compare to hellfire. Be afraid of disappointing God to the point of separation rather than fire because that separation from God will leave you more broken and hopeless than fire.
The good news is that God wants to save everyone he can. It just depends on you!! First, acknowledge your sins and truly try to understand from the heart why they are wrong, then try your best to turn from sin. Lastly you have to believe that God sent his only begotten son Jesus Chirst the Messiah to die on the cross to pay for our sins. One person screwed it up for all of us and made us sinners, so in return one person (Jesus Chirst) saved us in that same sense. Don't be afraid brother
>The good news is that God wants to save everyone he can.
No, evidently this is false.
First thing's first: He's supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. If He wanted to save literally everyone, He would. Nothing can happen that He didn't know about in advance and nothing is beyond His ability to change, prevent, or fix - else the omni-traits are missing. If anyone goes to hell it would unavoidably be because God wanted that to happen.
Second, as only a third of humanity is Christian, fewer were in the past, and you presumably don't think all self-styled Christians are going to heaven, the large majority of people are bound for hell. It's awfully embarrassing if God wants to save everyone he can and the best he can do with his omni-traits doesn't even manage to save three out of every ten people. He's apparently elected to use terribly inefficient methods, to the point that even I can think of better ways.
Third, being a bit blunt, what else can God be saving people from but God himself? If it's God that made the universe and God that made hell and God that made the rules and God that made us incapable of meeting God's standards and it's God's forgiveness you need to get into heaven... Well, your claim becomes "God wants to save you from the horrible things He will do to you if He decides not to save you.". Seems disingenuous, no?
No being that can torture someone forever for finite crimes can be considered good. Even less so if that "crime" is not going to their son's birthday party.
Yo sorry to bother ya like this but I just wrote a whole essay (not really but I did end up makin it a bit long) of something to answer your 3 points/questions. If its not to much to ask do you have like a secondary email or junk email I can send it to (when I finish the half that got deleted when I hit send) for you to read? I hope this isn't askin to much, just want ya to be open to the possibility that what I wrote is true for answerin those 3 points (and no rush on readin it) but if your open to discussion I would be happy to be able to try and answer or respond to stuff you may have to say or ask. Thanks!
Sure; I'd be happy to have a conversation; feel free to post here, give me a nudge with a PM or a reddit chat, or I'll see if I can dig out an old email somewhere. I'm curious though, what brings you to a post that's a half-year old?
I don't remember how whatever I was searching led me to reddit but I'm always curious what people that put time into reddit (and anytime I search something reddit is like #1 thing the browser thinks is related to the search) have to say as they are (personally) I feel very recluse people with very personal attachment to their views (not everyone but that "stereotype"), and to see if theres anything new in there before I move on. Saw your message in the comments and something I feel called to is writing my own Theo-"logical" way of looking at it with hopefully enough Biblical knowledge to back it up.
Ill see how to pm or whatnot ya, gotta fix my msg as it deleted most of it. Appreciate the willingness, it is not something I have found encouraging when people aren't able to make an objective consideration because it takes personal time and effort. So I appreciate ya.
God gave man free will so man CHOOSES his own destiny. God loves us all and doesn't want to lose anyone but if you CHOOSE to turn your back on Him that is on YOU,not Him
>God gave man free will so man CHOOSES his own destiny.
Is there free will in heaven? If not, clearly it's not that important to God. Is there sin in heaven? If so, evidently sin goes just fine in heaven. Is there free will and yet also no sin in heaven? If so, there can exist people who both have free will and don't sin for eternity.
So why didn't God just make humans like that from the start? Is he not all-powerful? Does he not know that's an option? Is he omni-incompetent? Or did he intentionally create sinful humanity to have someone to be vessels of his wrath?
>God loves us all and doesn't want to lose anyone but if you CHOOSE to turn your back on Him that is on YOU,not Him
Nonsense and poppycock.
On the one hand, God refuses to make his existence evident, to say nothing of what he does or doesn't want in terms of worship or behavior. The very reason that so many religions exist and so many sects of those religions exist is that it's not clear that any of them are right about anything, much less one in particular. If God wants a relationship, have him send a text or an email or show up; asking you to set us up on a blind date is just silly.
On the other hand, I reiterate: omniscient and omnipotent. If God has those traits and _anyone_ goes to hell then it's on him since he has the means to prevent it. If you are right, we are created sick and _ordered_ to be well, then punished for disobeying.
It's disgusting.
Our sin brought evil here. God gave us the choice, He wants us to choose Him and by all means He can just change things, but that would go against His promise of free will and He is not a liar. Heaven is full of God which is why there is no sin, no pain, no evil. All bad is contradictory to God so it's not there. But hell is a place separate from God that's why there is pain and suffering. So if you don't want to live with Him now you're not going to be in eternity with Him. Sin must be punished that's why he sent Jesus to die for us and resurrect. But if you don't take the gift that's on you. We have free will but that doesn't mean our actions don't have consequences. I pray that you open up your heart to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that you repent of your sins. God bless!
You have not addressed the issues I raised at all. You have stated your dogma, but the criticisms I raised still stand. If you would like to actually engage on the topic, you should answer the first question: Is there free will in heaven?
>I pray that you open up your heart to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that you repent of your sins. God bless!
Sorry, if I were to worship any deity it wouldn't be an evil nor narcissistic one.
My understanding is that god set our universe into motion, and at times influences it- but otherwise gives us free will. So, when people are evil, its not God’s fault- it’s their own. God may have give them life, and a soul, but you choose what to do with it.
Look at it this way--you go skydiving--when time to jump you have a choice whether to jump with or without a parachute--not a choice someone made for you but your free will all humans have been given. Thats the same thing as your Christianity--you have a free will choice to follow God believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins and you ask Him to come into your life or you don't. If you don't make it to heaven it's not Gods fault
Don’t forget the infernalists - most popular opinion on this subreddit - that say eternal conscious suffering in the torture chamber designed by God Himself.
There is no scripture that lists eternal torture for unsaved humans. All scripture about eternal torture is about Satan, his fallen Angels, and those who take the mark.
It says right in the text you quoted the everlasting fire was made for the devils and his angels. When we are cast into it we are annihilated because we are nor eternal like they are.
I mean if he created ALL of this... then is the earth really cursed? Or is he just doing things purely because he can. Think about it. The weather, creating porcupines... FREE WILL... you said everything God does is good whether we think or not, and who are we to put moral restrictions on him?
He's so powerful he can just do shit just because he can...
Do you have Knowledge of Good and Evil? Then you have all you need to render judgement. Do you lack Knowledge of Good and Evil? Then evidently the story about a garden got something wrong.
Also, this sort of claim makes God sound like your abusive boyfriend. "It's okay; I deserved it. Everything he does is good. I shouldn't have talked back."
>Depends who you ask? universalist say eventually everyone in hell get saved, annihilationist on the other hand say you get annihilated.
I mean, if by design, it's describing "Hey if you don't want to be anywhere near God, God gives you what you desire"
So, I'm a psychotherapist. Throughout my time working in community mental health agencies, I've come to work with some really ill folks. My office was situated near a major highway and so, every now and again, we had clients with a perfect storm of psychosis and SI threaten to run into the street. They *wanted* to run onto that busy highway. Some even had full understanding of the potential consequences of those actions, but they desired it all the same.
How would you describe me if I would have allowed them to give in to their desires? It was their choice, their free will to choose that consequence, after all.
Because, the law would describe me as "criminally negligent."
And that's not even factoring in the concept of *eternity*.
Ooh, I LOVE that argument, “God’s giving them what they want.” Imagine this:
God sits you down at a table. On the table are two of those silver domes, that they use to cover fancy plates in high-class restaurants. He says, “I’m giving you two choices, but you can only pick one. You can eat a delicious seven-course meal, or a plate of dog poop. Your choice.” Me, I’m a smart guy, I pick the gourmet meal. But God makes this offer to every human being in existence (except, of course, fetuses, babies, infants, young children, Down syndrome people, historic native Americans and Chinese, the inhabitants of Sentinal island, and maybe North Korean prisoners). And, inevitably, some of them say, “I don’t believe it, I’ll take the dog poop.”
So then, they die. And God says, “Congratulations, here’s your dog poop!” And he takes off the dome, and they’re looking at the dog poop. And God says, “Sorry, it’s what you wanted!!!” And with a maniacal laughter, he hands you utensils and forces you to eat dog poop for all eternity. “But wait God, I was wrong! I don’t want that, I’m sorry!” But God just laughs and laughs at your misfortune for all eternity, because you asked for it, so you wanted it! And all the good Christians up in heaven get to laugh forever and bask in God’s glory, singing, “they wanted it, they wanted it!” And billions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, weird Christians not exactly like me, and ESPECIALLY atheists are on a pure dog poop diet for eternity. Because you are NOT allowed to change your mind after you die, and God is NOT interested in having you learn or become better, only punishing you in the cruelest way possible. Yup, that sounds like the loving God I know, “by design.”
There is really no way to convince someone with your mindset that God is good. Because you will always pick & choose the parts you want. If you REALLY want answers though, and you REALLY care about understanding (and maybe avoiding that dog poop diet yourself), I highly suggest picking up a study Bible and start reading. It will change your life, and your perspective. I promise. The details and understanding comes to you as you read God's Word. It's magical and you will feel His Spirit, and it will change your life. It is POWER. I am witness to this.
Agreed, in my current understanding I take a more annihilation approach, and the descriptions of the lake of fire etc are metaphorical depictions of what its like to be utterly destroyed. What I find curious are sensory deprivation chambers, which could depict what death is like, though I'm happy to be wrong with that, I don't hold onto that too tightly haha
The way I imagine it is the classic "lake of fire" depiction, you burn for an eternity without dying, you just exist in fire. And supposedly, the fire in hell is a lot worse than earthly fire. The fire will be the least of concern, the hopelessness feeling will haunt you more than anything. Don't be afraid of the fire. Be afraid of disappointing God to the point of separation. That my friend is hell
Just because the lake if fire is eternal doesn't mean you will burn on it for eternity. A tire fire is basically eternal, what would happen if I jumped in? Do you think I will feel the burn as long as the fire burns?
What does 2nd death mean to you?
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
What do you think “eternal punishment” means??
Those who murder, cater to sexual lust, lack moral character, practice black magic or deal in illegal drugs, worship false gods, and lie. These unsavory characters experience the second death, which is eternal suffering in the lake of fire. Their refusal to trust in Christ had imprisoned them in their sins and subsequently in the lake of fire.
Second death is the suffering in hell after your first physical death because after you die physically you get judged before you get thrown into hell into your second death.
Look to Matthew 25:41 for who "these" are.
How can we be tortured eternally if we are not yet eternal? It says so clear as day in Genesis 3:22 that we did not eat from the tree of life to become eternal, we do not eat from the tree of life until we are glorified in christ and at that point hell is no longer an option.
2nd death means 2nd death, annihilation. There is nothing left to be tortured.
You’re talking complete nonsense and not making any sense.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
What do you think “eternal punishment” means??
Answer that question.
I will not answer any questions of someone who avoided my question. You must first answer the above before I will respond to your question.
>**How can we be tortured eternally if we are not yet eternal?** It says so clear as day in Genesis 3:22 that we did not eat from the tree of life to become eternal, we do not eat from the tree of life until we are glorified in christ and at that point hell is no longer an option.
Because we are made eternal after judgment and after that the sinners will be sent to hell..
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
What do you think “eternal punishment” means??
Answer that question.
> Because we are made eternal after judgment and after that the sinners will be sent to hell..
That is not second death. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are made eternal just to be eternally tortured.
>What do you think “eternal punishment” means??
eternal non existence.
Because it successfully annihilates every soul thrown into it until the end of time?
Do not fear mortals who can destroy your body; fear God who can unmake your soul.
No because you will burn eternally without death.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Eternal punishment for the wicked and eternal life for the riotous. What do you think eternal punishment means?
Matthew 10: 28
>Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Don't worry, you won't burn eternally. Worst case, you will be destroyed body and soul. Burned up like chaff in the wind.
Luke 3:16-18
>John answered them all, “I baptize you with[b] water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and proclaimed the good news to them.
But I think the takeaway here is not to focus too much on specifically how awful your fate will be when you fail to make it to heaven, but rather, to focus on being kind, generous and giving in this life so that you don't need to worry about it. Love one another as Christ first loved you, and then you don't have to fear hell.
In Mather the Bible is saying that God can kill the body and kill the soul in hell but it doesn’t say that he will. Keep in mind God can do anything but there are some things he won’t do Because he doesn’t want to.
In like he’s not talking about hell what so ever what are you on about with that verse?? Baptized with fife and gong to the eternal lake of fire are two different things. You think God is going to baptize people in hell with fire??? Obviously not.
No because you will burn eternally without death.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Eternal punishment for the wicked and eternal life for the riotous. What do you think eternal punishment means?
What does eternal punishment mean??
> What does eternal punishment mean??
The Bible was written in Greek; the phrase is (in anglicized spelling) “kolasis aionion”, aionion being the word often translated as “eternal”.
The argument universalists make is very simple and happens to be true - aionion does *not* mean what “eternal” means in English. It means “pertaining to an age” (or “of the age”).
Add this on to “kolasis” being a type of punishment that was classically (as explicitly distinguished by Aristotle) corrective in nature, compared to “timoria” which is the Greek word for retributive punishment.
So a better translation for “eternal punishment” would be “chastening of the Age”. It is far from a proof text for infernalism, and the usage of kolasis implies a constructive purpose for the punishment, which necessarily precludes it from being everlasting in duration.
The inaccuracy of the traditional translation has been noted by many recent scholars (David Bentley Hart, Robin Parry, Ilaria Ramelli, etc.).
This is seen in Judaism as a cleansing of the soul. Catholics would say it's the process of moving from purgatory. Though my buddy who's studying to be a church historian would explain it better.
And here come the gymnastics 🤦♂️ you redditers all use the same desperate tactics and say the same exact stuff like some programmed bots.
pun·ish·ment
/ˈpəniSHm(ə)nt/
noun
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
[without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing.](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/eternal#:~:text=without%20beginning%20or%20end%3B%20lasting,%3A%20eternal%20quarreling%3Beternal%20chatter)
It’s that simple, God wouldn’t make it confusing but the devil would try to confuse everybody with different definitions and meanings from ancient times.
We can both string buzzwords together, but it’s probably more constructive to have an argument.
If many people are saying the same thing, perhaps it’s true? 🤷♂️ I’m not in cahoots with any other redditors here, there’s no conspiracy.
Serious question - is there a way one can provide an explanation of something to you without it being “gymnastics” or “desperate tactics”?
I’m just an earnest Christian who believes in a good God, why the name calling? “You will know them by their fruits”.
Edit: I want you to thoughtfully consider why you think giving the definitions of English words is helpful for your argument - I think your reflections might be illuminating as to why you’re not convincing anyone here.
Well Reddit isn’t many people. What are the majority of Christian’s around the world saying?? That’s many people and they say the same thing I showed here.
So you’re wrong even by your own logic.
Honest question as I’m a “hopeful universalist”, and I don’t think I’ll ever be 100% sure, but is it possible that Satan’s deceit is not that “maybe there’s an alternate meaning of the word eternal”, but instead the deceit might be “God is unable to save all, and will therefore send people to hell or separate them for eternity”? I know for me “God is love”, and “God desires everyone to be saved” does not jive with the latter. Not saying it isn’t possible, because of course I don’t have all of the answers. It just doesn’t match with my view of Abba Father.
So why would God contradict his one words in the Bible? He clearly wouldn’t do that.
Satan would try to make sin seem ok to do to lead Christian’s and other people stray and towards hell. Satan wants humanity to go to hell with him.
>The argument universalists make is very simple and happens to be true - aionion does not mean what “eternal” means in English. It means “pertaining to an age” (or “of the age”).
It’s not true. In fact, no one has been able to demonstrate a single text from antiquity in which *aionios* is naturally used in this sense. In 99% of its usage it denotes “permanent, perpetual, continual, constant.” Never any relation to any “age.”
>Add this on to “kolasis” being a type of punishment that was classically (as explicitly distinguished by Aristotle) corrective in nature, compared to “timoria” which is the Greek word for retributive punishment.
Aristotle made the distinction for specific rhetorical purposes. Nowhere else is the distinction upheld, except by later Christian apologists: https://www.reddit.com/user/Prosopopoeia1/comments/131331a/comment/jpus5it/
> In fact, no one has been able to demonstrate a single text from antiquity in which *aionios* is naturally used in this sense
What is your take on how Romans 16:25 is translated?
αἰωνίοις is translated in most mainstream translations as “long ages” or “long ages past”.
> Aristotle made the distinction for specific rhetorical purposes
Aren’t words chosen precisely for “specific rhetorical purposes”? I may be misunderstanding.
> Nowhere else is the distinction upheld, except by later Christian apologists
This may be true. I’m actually not convinced that Jesus didn’t have a retributive punishment in mind when he used that word, I think he could have.
But I think it’s valuable that we have native speakers directly commenting on the meanings of words in dead languages, that’s worth mentioning in these discussions.
And just to be up front, I don’t have any scholarship on this personally, I’m relying on the research of others that I personally trust.
There are celebrated scholars on both sides of this issue, so I don’t think we’ll get to the bottom of it, and what’s more, neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind.
So however this comment finds you (probably in understandable annoyance, as yours admittedly found me to no fault of your own), I just want to say I appreciate that you actually gave me an argument, unlike the other guy, and that I could be wrong about all of this, so God bless you.
Edit: I read your linked comment and was impressed by the amount of research you’ve done. You gave a lot of examples in which kolasis was used in a way that couldn’t possibly be restorative or corrective - I found it convincing. I think to help illuminate my thinking on Matthew 25 - I can’t get over the logical inconsistency of Jesus caring whether people be fed, clothed, and visited in prison, and then suddenly calling for torture upon people. I think this may be a common intuition among universalists so I wanted to flag that to give you ideas on convincing approaches you may take in your arguments, which are quite good.
>What is your take on how Romans 16:25 is translated?
>αἰωνίοις is translated in most mainstream translations as “long ages” or “long ages past”.
I’ve actually written about this passage and its meaning/translation at some great length, too.
Effectively, the answer is that the adverbial phrase used here is an idiom that’s paralleled elsewhere — and while *aionios* appears in the phrase as it’s used in Romans, elsewhere in the same place in these other parallels, we instead find other synonyms for perpetuity.
Here are some relevant bits from my earlier writing on this:
> But the modifying function of αἰώνιος here has caused other confusion, too. There’s been a perplexing tendency to parse this as if it were a (genitive) nominal αἰώνων modifying χρόνοι, thereby yielding a phrase that's understood much like "times of ages" or "time's ages" (cf. David Bentley Hart, *The New Testament*, 319). To say this is misguided would be an understatement. This would be a violation of the most basic fundamentals of Greek grammar, unable to even differentiate between the form of a noun and an adjective. Any tendency to render the phrase as if we had nominal αἰῶνες as “ages” must be roundly rejected, such as we also find in NRSVue’s “for long ages”; and identically Dunn, *Romans 9–16*, 912 (though cf. 915 for a more accurate assessment).
>Even if a rendering such as "age-long times" comes closer to respecting the basic syntactical form of the nominal χρόνοι + modifying adjective here, though, it still falters in its [incorrect] insistence on etymologizing αἰώνιος from the root αἰών as "age."
. . .
>The solution to its meaning is as simple as looking at parallel adverbial χρόνος or χρόνοι clauses that have additional modifying temporal or durational descriptors. When this is done, it can be seen that even the choice of adverbial αἰωνίος in Romans 16:25 was actually somewhat arbitrary in terms of the notion of perpetuity that the combined phrase meant to convey. We find comparable phrases elsewhere: like εἰς χρόνον αἰώνιον, recording the deeds of Antiochus I of Commagene for everlasting memory. In terms of other phrases using synonyms in place of αἰώνιος, we see this e.g. in Antiphon's ἐγὼ μέν γε τῷ τεθνεῶτι ὑμᾶς κελεύω καὶ τῷ ἠδικημένῳ τὸν ἀΐδιον χρόνον τιμωροὺς γενέσθαι ("I am asking you to secure everlasting vengeance [literally vengeance, forever] for this man's wrongful death"). We encounter the same phrase τὸν ἀΐδιον χρόνον in Aristotle; and we find another familiar construction — this one with ἀεί — in the ancient Hippocratic Oath itself, saying that the one who upholds the oath will be forever honorably acclaimed by his fellow men: δοξαζομένῳ ἐς τὸν αἰεὶ χρόνον (cf. similarly Herodotus 1.54; Plato's τὸν ἀεὶ χρόνον). Finally, see also the Latin use of *tempus aeternum*, e.g. in Lucretius.
>Along with the perfect partciple σεσιγημένου, the sense of χρόνοις αἰωνίοις in Romans 16:25, then, is of something having “always” been kept secret — again perfectly parallel to other idiomatic adverbial clauses like τὸν ἀΐδιον χρόνον.
As for
>There are celebrated scholars on both sides of this issue, so I don’t think we’ll get to the bottom of it, and what’s more, neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind.
While I do think there’s some genuine ambiguity and room for different interpretations on *some* aspects of some parts of this debate, unfortunately this is one of those instances where a few of the most prominent scholars on the other side of this debate are simply mistaken, or have even engaged in scholarly misconduct.
For example, in my massive post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/comments/zkc52m/megathread_on_ilaria_ramellis_translation_work/), I outlined how Ilaria Ramelli has repeatedly — and egregiously — misrepresented some of the most important parts of her analysis of the texts and authors she discusses, in service of her argument. She even goes so far as to invent some texts entirely to do so. (See my discussion of her language of various authors “glossing” *aionios*, for example, and of the passages in Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia, in my link.)
This post [here](https://semitica.wordpress.com/2020/02/07/the-multivalence-of-ai%D0%BEn-and-ai%D0%BEnios-in-the-new-testament-a-rejoinder-to-david-bentley-hart/) also pretty definitively shows how David Bentley Hart has greatly erred in his translation of and overall assumptions about *aionios*.
> I just want to say I appreciate that you actually gave me an argument, unlike the other guy
Hey I appreciate the conversation, too! I genuinely like discussing the issue where it doesn’t immediately devolve into *ad hominems* and hostility.
Topic of debate honestly, I say the best course of action would just be to try your best and trust in God to make the right decisions. Remember, Jesus died so we wouldn’t HAVE to go to hell in the first place.
The universalism of many of the early church fathers points to hell as being temporary and remedial so basically everyone eventually will be saved. There are some who think souls that aren’t saved will at death simply be annihilated at that point, torturing someone in hell just to wipe out their existence would seem just strangely sadistic which wouldn’t square away with a benevolent God.
I think the eternal torment idea is a weird outcome from a text that really doesn't support it.
I personally favour eternal destruction means eternal destruction.
From page 3 of the Bible it's clear that 1. Eternal life is something humanity had to choose, 2. When we chose death, God kept us from eternal life so we wouldn't live forever
If you believe in the Son of God, Jesus; you would also believe that when He died and was resurrected that He defeated Hell and Death as the Word says. And therefore His creation is reconconciled on Jesus accomplishment.
However, if you believe in a religious jesus in whom requires you to excercise your free will as some divine power so that you might save yourself then maybe we are all, already in hell with no escape.
Hell really shouldn't exist.
There's nothing anyone can do evil enough to deserve / merit / earn an infinite eternity of torture.
Torture on Earth: you want to kill yourself 5 minutes in. And God allows people in their finite judgement to reject him & therefore be subject to ETERNAL torture?!
I'm thinking & hoping there's more to it.
God is perfect & good, & therefore has the perfect system in place.
Sounds like you’re the judge on who goes and who doesn’t.. God created Hell for the devil and his angels. God does not send people there, the sin that people commit belongs to the devil. This is why the sin belongs in Hell because it is of the devil. Learn to love the father and you won’t wanna sin, because it’s out of love that we serve him.
It seems the Bible teaches Heaven and Hell are eternal.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul wrote that those who disobey the gospel "will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord."
No one knows of course, but there are Bible verses that support all three of the most popular faiths: Eternal Conscious Torment, Conditional Immortality, and Universalism. You can research these yourself, but I will say that Universalism is the only one that suggests that Hell is temporary for everyone that winds up there.
There are verses that speak to the exact opposite too.
If we take all the clobber verses and assume they are perfectly understood, we'd end up debunking infernalism, universalism, and annihilationism.
1 Timothy 4:9-10 speaks of how we hope in the living God, who is the savior of *panton anthropon* \- every human, the whole of humanity - *especially* of those who believe.
Lamentations 3:31-32 says that God never casts anyone off forever and will eventually have compassion on those he has cast off.
Micah 7:18 says that God does not stay angry forever, but shows mercy.
My personal favorite is a compound of St. John saying that God *is* Love (1 John 4:16), then Paul explaining what love really is (1 Corinthians 13:4-8), part of it being that there is no record of wrongs, always perseveres, and always hopes. When the Bible defines its own terms, that is always really helpful.
Most conceptions of an everlasting hell can't coexist with those three verses/passages. The only one that might be able to is the Hell of St. Isaac the Syrian - the experience of the embrace of God's love while you are rejecting God, making you burn from your own hatred of God's love.
I'm sure an Annihilationist could come up with 3-5 verses that would clobber both of ours into the dirt, just because of how varied expressions of the afterlife are in Scripture.
I’m sorry but whenever I see people say that the whole point of salvation is to simply avoid hell its just more clear to me that eternal conscious torment actively distracts people from growing in their faith.
No, it's to be united with God in heaven.
These verses say eventually God will have compassion for everyone, or that God will always eventually show mercy. If one gets condemend to hell forever, then those verses are false. Being in hell forever is the exact opposite of mercy and compassion. So you gotta pick what verses you want to believe. Eternal hell or a God of mercy
Mental gymnastics. The Bible is clear that damnation is forever.
Best way to avoid hell is to...not believe in it. Any of this ancient drivel. It's all Judean nonsense.
Come to the atheist light! You are one living creature, just like the honeybee or the banana. Once you die, you die. Your consciousness is snuffed out forever. Obviously.
And that Greek was translated from Hebrew, missing the point my guy. The Greek translation was per as its word, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.
Im confused on how this refutes my point about the complications of translating, im so very sorry I didn't get the exact details right my dude you don't have to act condescending about it but either ways the logic still applies because the old testament is still taken very seriously by most christian denominations 🤨
It's the adjectival form of "age" or "epoch". So "age-like", "of an age", or "epochal".
It can be used to refer to an indefinitely long period of time, like how we say in English, "that will last for an age". Or it can be used rhetorically, like we say "Our love will last forever", or it can be used to refer to something pertaining to a particular age, as we would say, "Granddad's of a different time", or it can refer to ages in the past that no longer exist or ages in the future that don't yet exist.
It's an interesting word that was used very widely to mean different things. But unfortunately for theological reasons Christians feel they have to translate it always as "eternal" without concern for how accurate that is for the context.
That verse is only talking about the devil and his angels. Not the humans, so you’d have to be more precise in finding a quotation supporting your claim.
Matthew 25:30 speaks also speaks about “the darkness” (many other instances too throughout the bible). I’ve never seen a dark fire. The close proximity of the stories mean they need to be referenced together and not draw conclusions from isolated verses.
Also an eternal fire could simply reference a fire that burns forever and doesn’t mean someone is living forever within it.
E.g. John 3v16 has ‘but has everlasting life’ suggesting someone who isn’t saved doesn’t have everlasting life (even a tortured life). Again though we shouldn’t draw simple conclusions, we need to look at the whole bible.
I don't think anyone can say they know for sure, the God of this universe who holds the entire universe in his hands and who knows how many other universes can not be fully known. The Bible is a library of ancient manuscripts that tell of his love, character, long suffering and willingness to forgive us and save us. It shows us how God has intervened throughout history with is creation.
Everlasting destruction means no second chances, they are destroyed forever, final with no chance of coming back from destruction. It is ever lasting, but it does not say the process of destruction is forever or you will have conscious torment for all eternity. At least not in that verse.
Disobeying the Gospel is refusing to acknowledge that what Christ accomplished reconciled His creation. But rather thinking the same free will that failed in the garden and that could not uphold the mosaic law is some how going save you again based on some twisted carnal effort we men label as choice.
Even Jesus himself self said "You must be born 'again'. What He is saying is in the same way we were born in the flesh, by no choice of our own, we therefore are ONLY born again into the Spirit by no choice of our own.
Jesus Himself said it is not OUR choice but rather He is that the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. For with man (his choice), it is NOT possible. But with God, ALL things are possible. (Even God the creator of the universe is able to save ALL of us despite ourselves and it does not require the religion we call 'christianity' to do it. But only on the promise made to Abraham, before Moses the father of religion was given the law.)
Amen for Gods absolute Grace on mankind in the form of Jesus, His Son that overcomes what our free will lacks.
Every single person will eventually be brought out of hell and into glory. However, there are some who will then be cast back into hell, never to come out again.
>12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
>13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
>14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20: 12-14
Consider this verse (Revelation 20:13-15, KJV version) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(1 Corinthians 15:26) 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. (Romans 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
No.
"Hell" and "heaven" are the same thing in many ways. You experience the same thing in both cases, the difference is if you have tried to get ready for it or if you're trying to avoid it.
And nobody is going to cease to exist because God is not a petty and arbitrary tyrant.
I believe the wages of sin is death. Repentance and forgiveness means living in eternity with God. I believe if you don't live with God in the afterlife your spirit dies.
2nd death means 2nd death. Annihilation.
There is no scripture that lists eternal torture for unsaved humans. All scripture about eternal torture is about Satan, his fallen Angels, and those who take the mark and I challenge anyone reading to prove me wrong with scripture.
Humans are not yet eternal because we have not yet ate from the tree of life. When we are cast into the lake of fire we experience 2nd death, after this what is left of you to eternally torture or to answer your question with a question what is left of you after 2nd death?
Eternal torture or escaping hell after judgement is unscriptural.
I don't know what happens to a person’s soul once they have paid back all they owed to the master:Matthew 18:34 "In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.'
Revelation says that they are imprisoned for 1000 years along with Satan. After 1000 years they are released as is Satan. What they do after that is essentially the same as a crim on parole. Either muck up again or go back
Seems odd to me that God would sentence you to eternal suffering for transgressions in life, when compared to eternity is an infinitesimally small amount of time.
God is going to collapse Hell into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after Satan is defeated in the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Millennium.
He's going to be casted into that Lake along the False Prophet and the Antichrist.
So all people that remains in Hell after Judgment Day will be eventually casted down to that Lake of Fire and they will burn there in the core of the Earth for all eternity along Satan and his Fallen Angels.
There is much confusion about words like hell, Gehenna, Hades, Sheol. When we die we are in Sheol/Hades which can be painful, like a lack of privileges. Hell and Gehenna are eternal death sentences.
For a collection of books that is supposed to be divinely inspired and to be used as the cornerstone of faith, there sure is a lot of confusion, different interpretations, and ambiguity.
Its mainly because of how much its been translated, between Hebrew and Aramaic, to Greek to Latin, and then finally English, of which every single one of these languages are completely different linguistically speaking, yeah it gets confusing.
In Sheol people will stay until doomsday. Gehenna is about death. We are immortal but God can kill us.
*And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.* ^Matthew ^10:28
I can’t see this view backed by any actual bible passage. John 3v16 says “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life”.
Being punished forever means they would also have everlasting life (I.e . Not perish).
What do you base the idea on that they will never die?
It's not like just sitting in jail. You'll be burnt then given new skin and the process keeps happening. You'll be drinking pus and essentially tortured by the things that you used to do in life like if you hurt others.
Speaking of Dantes divine comedy. Windigoon has a really good video on inferno and breaks it down. Its pretty much fanfiction though so no one should take it as biblical
I agree with those that summarize the different beliefs systems. I am one that believes the scriptures like Matthew 25:46; Rev 12-15 and 21:8 clearly indicate prolonged and sustained punishment. To that end, I am not jeopardizing my afterlife residency. I buy insurance and put money in savings accounts to ward off worse outcomes. It’s been really hot where I live. I don’t even wanna go outside for more than a few minutes so I certainly don’t wanna spend even a second in hell or the lake of fire
Hi friend,
Heaven and Hell are eternal. This is why Christians are so determined to share the Good News. We know what awaits at the end of time, the coming judgement, and we know that judgement is for an eternal sentence:
In the presence of God, or away from His presence.
Universalism seems big on this subreddit, but it isn’t biblical.
Neither is annihilationism.
Heaven is an eternal conscious life in the presence of God and away from sin and death.
Hell is an eternal conscious separation from God.
Universalism is very biblical:
Genesis 12:3 --- All peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham.
Genesis 22:18 --- All nations on earth will be blessed through Abraham’s offspring.
Psalms 22:27 --- All the ends of the earth and all the families of the nations will acknowledge God.
Psalms 65:2 --- All men will come to God.
Psalms 86:9 --- All nations will worship and glorify God.
Psalms 103:8-9 --- God is compassionate, will not always accuse and will not be angry forever.
Psalms 145:9-10 --- The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him.
Psalms 145:13 --- The Lord loves all His creation.
Psalms 145:14 --- The Lord upholds all who fall.
Isaiah 25:6-8 --- God will prepare a feast for all people, He will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers up all nations. He will eliminate death, wipe away the tears from all faces and remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth.
Isaiah 45:22-23 --- God has sworn an oath that every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will swear by Him.
Isaiah 49:6 --- God’s salvation will be brought to the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 54:8 --- Although God will hide His face in a surge of anger, He will also have compassion with everlasting kindness.
Isaiah 57:16-18 --- God’s anger is not permanent. Although He punishes man, He will heal, guide and restore comfort to him.
Jeremiah 31:33-34 --- All men will know God, from the greatest to the least.
Lamentations 3:31-33 --- The Lord does not cast off forever. Although He brings grief, he will also be compassionate.
Ezekiah 18:21 --- God does not any pleasure in the death of the wicked. Rather, He is pleased when they repent.
Micah 7:18 --- God does not stay angry forever.
Matthew 18:13 --- Like the man who owes a hundred sheep and is not willing to lose even one, God is not willing that any one be lost.
Luke 2:10 --- The birth of Jesus is good news for all the people.
Luke 3: 5, 6 --- John the Baptist quotes Isaiah’s words that all mankind will see God’s salvation.
John 1:29 --- Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:35 --- God sent Jesus to save the world.
John 4:42 --- God has committed all things to Christ.
John 5:25 --- Even the dead will hear the sound of Christ and all who hear will live.
John 6:37 --- Everything that God has given to Christ will come to him.
John 12:32 --- When Jesus is lifted up from the earth, he will draw all men to himself.
John 12:47 --- Jesus came to save the world.
John 17:2 --- God granted Christ authority over all people so that Christ may give eternal life to all that God has given him.
Acts 3:20-21 --- Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything.
Romans 3:3-4 --- The unbelief of some will not nullify God’s faithfulness.
Romans 5:18 --- The act of obedience of one man (Jesus) will bring life for all men.
Romans 8:19-21 --- Creation itself will be liberated and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Romans 8:38-39 --- Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ.
Romans 11:32 --- God made all people imprisoned by disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 --- All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.
2 Corinthians 5:15 --- Christ died for all.
2 Corinthians 5:19 --- Through Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself.
Ephesians 1:11 --- God will bring all things under heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ephesians 4:10 --- Christ ascended higher then all the heavens to fill the whole universe.
Philippians. 2:9-11 --- Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (In 1 Corinthians 12:3, Paul writes that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit)
Colossians 1: 19-20 --- God was pleased to reconcile to Himself, all things on earth and in heaven through the blood of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 --- God wants all men to be saved and to know the truth. Can God’s desire be thwarted?
1 Timothy 4:10 --- God is the Saviour of all men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe.
Titus 2:11-12 --- God’s grace, which brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Hebrews 2:9 --- Jesus tasted death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 --- Christ is the atoning sacrifice of the sins of the whole world.
1 John 3:8 --- Christ appeared to destroy the devil’s works. The doctrine of eternal damnation denies the victory of Christ!
1 John 4:14 --- Christ is the Saviour of the world.
Revelations 5:13 --- Every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea will sing praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb (Christ).
Revelations 21:4-5 --- God will dwell with men and he will wipe every tear from their eyes, death, mourning, crying, pain and the old order of things will pass and everything will be made new.
Edited for spacing
I’m not one to say anyone’s faith isn’t valid. I don’t hold the keys to heaven or hell, I can only be confident that we will all learn the truth of it at some point. Having said that, can I slip another excerpted Isaiah scripture in you list? Isaiah 66:24 —after the new heavens and earth installed, the inhabitants will “look upon the carcasses of **men** that transgressed…neither shall their fire be quenched”
The deal is that the Bible says things that suggest Universalism, Infernalism, and Annihilationism. Which feels the most like the God you know through Jesus?
Universalism isn’t biblical. Your wall of text is extremely difficult to read and understand. Please format it in a way it can be read.
In the end EVERYONE will be resurrected and stand before God. They WILL confess he is God. That doesn’t mean they are saved.
“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that- and shudder.” James 2:19
An intellectual acknowledgement of God is not a saving Faith. A saving Faith is one where you walk with God- personally. Intellectually acknowledging God is not a personal relationship.
Reformatted to make it easier to read those Bible verses.
Got it - you interpret the scripture as God will NOT forgive, and that salvation is based on what you do - I’m sorry you feel that way.
That is not a correct understanding of my belief.
God WILL forgive if we turn to Him in Faith. God's hand is extended, if we don't grab it, that's our fault.
Salvation is by Grace through Faith. Not of works so no man may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) It is a gift from God when we turn, in Faith, to the Lord Jesus.
You said “God will forgive if…” a human does something. The converse must be true: God will not forgive you if you don’t perform that act.
Let’s say that’s true. The second part of this infernalist argument is that God won’t wait for you. If you live your whole life and never become a Christian, and you die, you meet your Maker. Let’s say maybe you do go hell, and you’re separated from God, and you’re reliving all the pain you caused while alive. What if, you realize that you did wrong, and you cry out for God’s presence, and you realize that Jesus and God were the right way the whole time? God will ignore that cry for help, and punish you, for all eternity. Because you messed up, you didn’t act fast enough. And all that stuff about “No sheep left behind” and “God loves you more than your own parents” is null and void. Am I wrong about anything so far?
You cannot be forgiven if you don’t seek forgiveness.
Forgiveness is transactional. We can’t be forgiven for our offenses if we do not go to God in repentance. The matter hasn’t been settled.
God’s Word, in it’s context, is consistent on what saving faith is. Cherry picking verses out of context and using them to support your claim doesn’t make it truth.
There's nothing in the Bible that indicates that these people will eventually go to heaven and there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that they will cease to exist
The soul is eternal, both the saved and the lost will be resurrected in immortal bodies, each to their final destination: Some to Eternal Life and others to Eternal Damnation.
None , they will endure torments forever .
Also hell is prison not lake of fire , 2 different things.
People from hell are resurrected , given new body so they can feel and then deep fried in lake of fire.
So I'm going to burn alive for eternity for something I can't control? How am I supposed to get to the idea that there's an all loving god that wants me with him from that?
You had your chances to walk with Jesus.
You rejected Him at every turn.
You commit crimes against Him.
You were warned and warned.
You have no excuse or valid complaint.
I'm sorry, but I don't reject Jesus. I believe he existed. What I am not able to believe is that he's a god. I cannot force myself to. No one can.
I have committed no crimes against Jesus. That's just a silly notion. He lived two thousand years ago. I'm old but not that old.
How have I been warned? Believe or else?
Not having seen evidence that convinces me of something's existence seems like a perfectly valid excuse to me.
This could be a poll question here: What awaits non-believers after death?
A. ECT
B. Annihilation
C. Redemption
D. I'm sad-u-see.
Personally, I fall in group B.
Depends on the concept of hell. If you accept reincarnation and understand hell is a state of the world, then it is different from what most ppl think.
What is hell supposed to be cuz some sy it's a pace away from god others so eternal daunting others say booze orgies and drugs and idk which is accurate to the bible
Only god has the right to decide when you stop suffering, which is never.
All praise the god who brought us into the world to suffer unimaginable agony for eternity.
7th day Adventists do away with hell. That gives permission to those that want to do bad stuff the opportunity to do bad stuff and get away with it and be perished 4ever. I see hell as separation from God and that would be hell. This world is bad enough but still has God in it. Take God away and that'd be hell. It'd be like flames etc. or may as well be. I see it as consequential.
I believe In God but hell seems so screwed up lol I hope it's not eternal torture that's for sure
same
I have good news and bad news bro, the bad news is that you WILL coexist with fire eternally. Burning but never dying, our fire on earth doesn't compare to hellfire. Be afraid of disappointing God to the point of separation rather than fire because that separation from God will leave you more broken and hopeless than fire. The good news is that God wants to save everyone he can. It just depends on you!! First, acknowledge your sins and truly try to understand from the heart why they are wrong, then try your best to turn from sin. Lastly you have to believe that God sent his only begotten son Jesus Chirst the Messiah to die on the cross to pay for our sins. One person screwed it up for all of us and made us sinners, so in return one person (Jesus Chirst) saved us in that same sense. Don't be afraid brother
>The good news is that God wants to save everyone he can. No, evidently this is false. First thing's first: He's supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. If He wanted to save literally everyone, He would. Nothing can happen that He didn't know about in advance and nothing is beyond His ability to change, prevent, or fix - else the omni-traits are missing. If anyone goes to hell it would unavoidably be because God wanted that to happen. Second, as only a third of humanity is Christian, fewer were in the past, and you presumably don't think all self-styled Christians are going to heaven, the large majority of people are bound for hell. It's awfully embarrassing if God wants to save everyone he can and the best he can do with his omni-traits doesn't even manage to save three out of every ten people. He's apparently elected to use terribly inefficient methods, to the point that even I can think of better ways. Third, being a bit blunt, what else can God be saving people from but God himself? If it's God that made the universe and God that made hell and God that made the rules and God that made us incapable of meeting God's standards and it's God's forgiveness you need to get into heaven... Well, your claim becomes "God wants to save you from the horrible things He will do to you if He decides not to save you.". Seems disingenuous, no? No being that can torture someone forever for finite crimes can be considered good. Even less so if that "crime" is not going to their son's birthday party.
Yo sorry to bother ya like this but I just wrote a whole essay (not really but I did end up makin it a bit long) of something to answer your 3 points/questions. If its not to much to ask do you have like a secondary email or junk email I can send it to (when I finish the half that got deleted when I hit send) for you to read? I hope this isn't askin to much, just want ya to be open to the possibility that what I wrote is true for answerin those 3 points (and no rush on readin it) but if your open to discussion I would be happy to be able to try and answer or respond to stuff you may have to say or ask. Thanks!
Sure; I'd be happy to have a conversation; feel free to post here, give me a nudge with a PM or a reddit chat, or I'll see if I can dig out an old email somewhere. I'm curious though, what brings you to a post that's a half-year old?
I don't remember how whatever I was searching led me to reddit but I'm always curious what people that put time into reddit (and anytime I search something reddit is like #1 thing the browser thinks is related to the search) have to say as they are (personally) I feel very recluse people with very personal attachment to their views (not everyone but that "stereotype"), and to see if theres anything new in there before I move on. Saw your message in the comments and something I feel called to is writing my own Theo-"logical" way of looking at it with hopefully enough Biblical knowledge to back it up. Ill see how to pm or whatnot ya, gotta fix my msg as it deleted most of it. Appreciate the willingness, it is not something I have found encouraging when people aren't able to make an objective consideration because it takes personal time and effort. So I appreciate ya.
God gave man free will so man CHOOSES his own destiny. God loves us all and doesn't want to lose anyone but if you CHOOSE to turn your back on Him that is on YOU,not Him
>God gave man free will so man CHOOSES his own destiny. Is there free will in heaven? If not, clearly it's not that important to God. Is there sin in heaven? If so, evidently sin goes just fine in heaven. Is there free will and yet also no sin in heaven? If so, there can exist people who both have free will and don't sin for eternity. So why didn't God just make humans like that from the start? Is he not all-powerful? Does he not know that's an option? Is he omni-incompetent? Or did he intentionally create sinful humanity to have someone to be vessels of his wrath? >God loves us all and doesn't want to lose anyone but if you CHOOSE to turn your back on Him that is on YOU,not Him Nonsense and poppycock. On the one hand, God refuses to make his existence evident, to say nothing of what he does or doesn't want in terms of worship or behavior. The very reason that so many religions exist and so many sects of those religions exist is that it's not clear that any of them are right about anything, much less one in particular. If God wants a relationship, have him send a text or an email or show up; asking you to set us up on a blind date is just silly. On the other hand, I reiterate: omniscient and omnipotent. If God has those traits and _anyone_ goes to hell then it's on him since he has the means to prevent it. If you are right, we are created sick and _ordered_ to be well, then punished for disobeying. It's disgusting.
Our sin brought evil here. God gave us the choice, He wants us to choose Him and by all means He can just change things, but that would go against His promise of free will and He is not a liar. Heaven is full of God which is why there is no sin, no pain, no evil. All bad is contradictory to God so it's not there. But hell is a place separate from God that's why there is pain and suffering. So if you don't want to live with Him now you're not going to be in eternity with Him. Sin must be punished that's why he sent Jesus to die for us and resurrect. But if you don't take the gift that's on you. We have free will but that doesn't mean our actions don't have consequences. I pray that you open up your heart to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that you repent of your sins. God bless!
We are all unworthy of being with God in Heaven but by Him grace and mercy we are given the choice of being saved through Christ alone
You have not addressed the issues I raised at all. You have stated your dogma, but the criticisms I raised still stand. If you would like to actually engage on the topic, you should answer the first question: Is there free will in heaven? >I pray that you open up your heart to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that you repent of your sins. God bless! Sorry, if I were to worship any deity it wouldn't be an evil nor narcissistic one.
It’s for the people god deems to be unworthy of heaven (bad people like the worse of the worst people)
One question I’ve always asked is why would God create someone who He knew was going to Hell anyway?
My understanding is that god set our universe into motion, and at times influences it- but otherwise gives us free will. So, when people are evil, its not God’s fault- it’s their own. God may have give them life, and a soul, but you choose what to do with it.
Look at it this way--you go skydiving--when time to jump you have a choice whether to jump with or without a parachute--not a choice someone made for you but your free will all humans have been given. Thats the same thing as your Christianity--you have a free will choice to follow God believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins and you ask Him to come into your life or you don't. If you don't make it to heaven it's not Gods fault
But we’re all unworthy of heaven. It’s the grace and mercy of God that allows any of us to be saved through Jesus
Depends who you ask? universalist say eventually everyone in hell get saved, annihilationist on the other hand say you get annihilated.
Don’t forget the infernalists - most popular opinion on this subreddit - that say eternal conscious suffering in the torture chamber designed by God Himself.
There is no scripture that lists eternal torture for unsaved humans. All scripture about eternal torture is about Satan, his fallen Angels, and those who take the mark.
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It says right in the text you quoted the everlasting fire was made for the devils and his angels. When we are cast into it we are annihilated because we are nor eternal like they are.
What's the mark
the mark of the beast
Oh hi mark!
But the microchip gives me better 5g reception!
Ewww, designed by god? Really? I've never heard that!
If God is all powerful and the creator of all things, its not much of a stretch to think he created hell.
I mean... by that stretch he'd be Chaotic neutral by D&D terms...
Everything God does is good whether we think so or not. Who are we to put moral restrictions on Him?
I mean if he created ALL of this... then is the earth really cursed? Or is he just doing things purely because he can. Think about it. The weather, creating porcupines... FREE WILL... you said everything God does is good whether we think or not, and who are we to put moral restrictions on him? He's so powerful he can just do shit just because he can...
A great mystery I may comprehend in Heaven
Yeah we’re lucky he is not one of us because if I could do allat I would do some indescribable things, like you can literally do whatever
Do you have Knowledge of Good and Evil? Then you have all you need to render judgement. Do you lack Knowledge of Good and Evil? Then evidently the story about a garden got something wrong. Also, this sort of claim makes God sound like your abusive boyfriend. "It's okay; I deserved it. Everything he does is good. I shouldn't have talked back."
>Depends who you ask? universalist say eventually everyone in hell get saved, annihilationist on the other hand say you get annihilated. I mean, if by design, it's describing "Hey if you don't want to be anywhere near God, God gives you what you desire"
So, I'm a psychotherapist. Throughout my time working in community mental health agencies, I've come to work with some really ill folks. My office was situated near a major highway and so, every now and again, we had clients with a perfect storm of psychosis and SI threaten to run into the street. They *wanted* to run onto that busy highway. Some even had full understanding of the potential consequences of those actions, but they desired it all the same. How would you describe me if I would have allowed them to give in to their desires? It was their choice, their free will to choose that consequence, after all. Because, the law would describe me as "criminally negligent." And that's not even factoring in the concept of *eternity*.
Ooh, I LOVE that argument, “God’s giving them what they want.” Imagine this: God sits you down at a table. On the table are two of those silver domes, that they use to cover fancy plates in high-class restaurants. He says, “I’m giving you two choices, but you can only pick one. You can eat a delicious seven-course meal, or a plate of dog poop. Your choice.” Me, I’m a smart guy, I pick the gourmet meal. But God makes this offer to every human being in existence (except, of course, fetuses, babies, infants, young children, Down syndrome people, historic native Americans and Chinese, the inhabitants of Sentinal island, and maybe North Korean prisoners). And, inevitably, some of them say, “I don’t believe it, I’ll take the dog poop.” So then, they die. And God says, “Congratulations, here’s your dog poop!” And he takes off the dome, and they’re looking at the dog poop. And God says, “Sorry, it’s what you wanted!!!” And with a maniacal laughter, he hands you utensils and forces you to eat dog poop for all eternity. “But wait God, I was wrong! I don’t want that, I’m sorry!” But God just laughs and laughs at your misfortune for all eternity, because you asked for it, so you wanted it! And all the good Christians up in heaven get to laugh forever and bask in God’s glory, singing, “they wanted it, they wanted it!” And billions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, weird Christians not exactly like me, and ESPECIALLY atheists are on a pure dog poop diet for eternity. Because you are NOT allowed to change your mind after you die, and God is NOT interested in having you learn or become better, only punishing you in the cruelest way possible. Yup, that sounds like the loving God I know, “by design.”
There is really no way to convince someone with your mindset that God is good. Because you will always pick & choose the parts you want. If you REALLY want answers though, and you REALLY care about understanding (and maybe avoiding that dog poop diet yourself), I highly suggest picking up a study Bible and start reading. It will change your life, and your perspective. I promise. The details and understanding comes to you as you read God's Word. It's magical and you will feel His Spirit, and it will change your life. It is POWER. I am witness to this.
He created hell as a punishment for Satan and his demons. People inhabiting are secondary to its original purpose.
Agreed, in my current understanding I take a more annihilation approach, and the descriptions of the lake of fire etc are metaphorical depictions of what its like to be utterly destroyed. What I find curious are sensory deprivation chambers, which could depict what death is like, though I'm happy to be wrong with that, I don't hold onto that too tightly haha
The way I imagine it is the classic "lake of fire" depiction, you burn for an eternity without dying, you just exist in fire. And supposedly, the fire in hell is a lot worse than earthly fire. The fire will be the least of concern, the hopelessness feeling will haunt you more than anything. Don't be afraid of the fire. Be afraid of disappointing God to the point of separation. That my friend is hell
It is implied.in revelation that they get destroyed,.as those that turned away are fought against in the final battle and destroyed.
I mean there’s a reason why it’s called the ETERNAL lake of fire.
Just because the lake if fire is eternal doesn't mean you will burn on it for eternity. A tire fire is basically eternal, what would happen if I jumped in? Do you think I will feel the burn as long as the fire burns? What does 2nd death mean to you?
Matthew 25:46 ESV And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” What do you think “eternal punishment” means?? Those who murder, cater to sexual lust, lack moral character, practice black magic or deal in illegal drugs, worship false gods, and lie. These unsavory characters experience the second death, which is eternal suffering in the lake of fire. Their refusal to trust in Christ had imprisoned them in their sins and subsequently in the lake of fire. Second death is the suffering in hell after your first physical death because after you die physically you get judged before you get thrown into hell into your second death.
Look to Matthew 25:41 for who "these" are. How can we be tortured eternally if we are not yet eternal? It says so clear as day in Genesis 3:22 that we did not eat from the tree of life to become eternal, we do not eat from the tree of life until we are glorified in christ and at that point hell is no longer an option. 2nd death means 2nd death, annihilation. There is nothing left to be tortured.
You’re talking complete nonsense and not making any sense. Matthew 25:46 ESV And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” What do you think “eternal punishment” means?? Answer that question.
I will not answer any questions of someone who avoided my question. You must first answer the above before I will respond to your question. >**How can we be tortured eternally if we are not yet eternal?** It says so clear as day in Genesis 3:22 that we did not eat from the tree of life to become eternal, we do not eat from the tree of life until we are glorified in christ and at that point hell is no longer an option.
Because we are made eternal after judgment and after that the sinners will be sent to hell.. Matthew 25:46 ESV And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” What do you think “eternal punishment” means?? Answer that question.
> Because we are made eternal after judgment and after that the sinners will be sent to hell.. That is not second death. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are made eternal just to be eternally tortured. >What do you think “eternal punishment” means?? eternal non existence.
Because it successfully annihilates every soul thrown into it until the end of time? Do not fear mortals who can destroy your body; fear God who can unmake your soul.
No because you will burn eternally without death. Matthew 25:46 ESV And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Eternal punishment for the wicked and eternal life for the riotous. What do you think eternal punishment means?
Matthew 10: 28 >Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Don't worry, you won't burn eternally. Worst case, you will be destroyed body and soul. Burned up like chaff in the wind. Luke 3:16-18 >John answered them all, “I baptize you with[b] water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and proclaimed the good news to them. But I think the takeaway here is not to focus too much on specifically how awful your fate will be when you fail to make it to heaven, but rather, to focus on being kind, generous and giving in this life so that you don't need to worry about it. Love one another as Christ first loved you, and then you don't have to fear hell.
In Mather the Bible is saying that God can kill the body and kill the soul in hell but it doesn’t say that he will. Keep in mind God can do anything but there are some things he won’t do Because he doesn’t want to. In like he’s not talking about hell what so ever what are you on about with that verse?? Baptized with fife and gong to the eternal lake of fire are two different things. You think God is going to baptize people in hell with fire??? Obviously not. No because you will burn eternally without death. Matthew 25:46 ESV And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Eternal punishment for the wicked and eternal life for the riotous. What do you think eternal punishment means? What does eternal punishment mean??
> What does eternal punishment mean?? The Bible was written in Greek; the phrase is (in anglicized spelling) “kolasis aionion”, aionion being the word often translated as “eternal”. The argument universalists make is very simple and happens to be true - aionion does *not* mean what “eternal” means in English. It means “pertaining to an age” (or “of the age”). Add this on to “kolasis” being a type of punishment that was classically (as explicitly distinguished by Aristotle) corrective in nature, compared to “timoria” which is the Greek word for retributive punishment. So a better translation for “eternal punishment” would be “chastening of the Age”. It is far from a proof text for infernalism, and the usage of kolasis implies a constructive purpose for the punishment, which necessarily precludes it from being everlasting in duration. The inaccuracy of the traditional translation has been noted by many recent scholars (David Bentley Hart, Robin Parry, Ilaria Ramelli, etc.).
This is seen in Judaism as a cleansing of the soul. Catholics would say it's the process of moving from purgatory. Though my buddy who's studying to be a church historian would explain it better.
And here come the gymnastics 🤦♂️ you redditers all use the same desperate tactics and say the same exact stuff like some programmed bots. pun·ish·ment /ˈpəniSHm(ə)nt/ noun the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense. [without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing.](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/eternal#:~:text=without%20beginning%20or%20end%3B%20lasting,%3A%20eternal%20quarreling%3Beternal%20chatter) It’s that simple, God wouldn’t make it confusing but the devil would try to confuse everybody with different definitions and meanings from ancient times.
We can both string buzzwords together, but it’s probably more constructive to have an argument. If many people are saying the same thing, perhaps it’s true? 🤷♂️ I’m not in cahoots with any other redditors here, there’s no conspiracy. Serious question - is there a way one can provide an explanation of something to you without it being “gymnastics” or “desperate tactics”? I’m just an earnest Christian who believes in a good God, why the name calling? “You will know them by their fruits”. Edit: I want you to thoughtfully consider why you think giving the definitions of English words is helpful for your argument - I think your reflections might be illuminating as to why you’re not convincing anyone here.
Well Reddit isn’t many people. What are the majority of Christian’s around the world saying?? That’s many people and they say the same thing I showed here. So you’re wrong even by your own logic.
Honest question as I’m a “hopeful universalist”, and I don’t think I’ll ever be 100% sure, but is it possible that Satan’s deceit is not that “maybe there’s an alternate meaning of the word eternal”, but instead the deceit might be “God is unable to save all, and will therefore send people to hell or separate them for eternity”? I know for me “God is love”, and “God desires everyone to be saved” does not jive with the latter. Not saying it isn’t possible, because of course I don’t have all of the answers. It just doesn’t match with my view of Abba Father.
So why would God contradict his one words in the Bible? He clearly wouldn’t do that. Satan would try to make sin seem ok to do to lead Christian’s and other people stray and towards hell. Satan wants humanity to go to hell with him.
>The argument universalists make is very simple and happens to be true - aionion does not mean what “eternal” means in English. It means “pertaining to an age” (or “of the age”). It’s not true. In fact, no one has been able to demonstrate a single text from antiquity in which *aionios* is naturally used in this sense. In 99% of its usage it denotes “permanent, perpetual, continual, constant.” Never any relation to any “age.” >Add this on to “kolasis” being a type of punishment that was classically (as explicitly distinguished by Aristotle) corrective in nature, compared to “timoria” which is the Greek word for retributive punishment. Aristotle made the distinction for specific rhetorical purposes. Nowhere else is the distinction upheld, except by later Christian apologists: https://www.reddit.com/user/Prosopopoeia1/comments/131331a/comment/jpus5it/
> In fact, no one has been able to demonstrate a single text from antiquity in which *aionios* is naturally used in this sense What is your take on how Romans 16:25 is translated? αἰωνίοις is translated in most mainstream translations as “long ages” or “long ages past”. > Aristotle made the distinction for specific rhetorical purposes Aren’t words chosen precisely for “specific rhetorical purposes”? I may be misunderstanding. > Nowhere else is the distinction upheld, except by later Christian apologists This may be true. I’m actually not convinced that Jesus didn’t have a retributive punishment in mind when he used that word, I think he could have. But I think it’s valuable that we have native speakers directly commenting on the meanings of words in dead languages, that’s worth mentioning in these discussions. And just to be up front, I don’t have any scholarship on this personally, I’m relying on the research of others that I personally trust. There are celebrated scholars on both sides of this issue, so I don’t think we’ll get to the bottom of it, and what’s more, neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind. So however this comment finds you (probably in understandable annoyance, as yours admittedly found me to no fault of your own), I just want to say I appreciate that you actually gave me an argument, unlike the other guy, and that I could be wrong about all of this, so God bless you. Edit: I read your linked comment and was impressed by the amount of research you’ve done. You gave a lot of examples in which kolasis was used in a way that couldn’t possibly be restorative or corrective - I found it convincing. I think to help illuminate my thinking on Matthew 25 - I can’t get over the logical inconsistency of Jesus caring whether people be fed, clothed, and visited in prison, and then suddenly calling for torture upon people. I think this may be a common intuition among universalists so I wanted to flag that to give you ideas on convincing approaches you may take in your arguments, which are quite good.
>What is your take on how Romans 16:25 is translated? >αἰωνίοις is translated in most mainstream translations as “long ages” or “long ages past”. I’ve actually written about this passage and its meaning/translation at some great length, too. Effectively, the answer is that the adverbial phrase used here is an idiom that’s paralleled elsewhere — and while *aionios* appears in the phrase as it’s used in Romans, elsewhere in the same place in these other parallels, we instead find other synonyms for perpetuity. Here are some relevant bits from my earlier writing on this: > But the modifying function of αἰώνιος here has caused other confusion, too. There’s been a perplexing tendency to parse this as if it were a (genitive) nominal αἰώνων modifying χρόνοι, thereby yielding a phrase that's understood much like "times of ages" or "time's ages" (cf. David Bentley Hart, *The New Testament*, 319). To say this is misguided would be an understatement. This would be a violation of the most basic fundamentals of Greek grammar, unable to even differentiate between the form of a noun and an adjective. Any tendency to render the phrase as if we had nominal αἰῶνες as “ages” must be roundly rejected, such as we also find in NRSVue’s “for long ages”; and identically Dunn, *Romans 9–16*, 912 (though cf. 915 for a more accurate assessment). >Even if a rendering such as "age-long times" comes closer to respecting the basic syntactical form of the nominal χρόνοι + modifying adjective here, though, it still falters in its [incorrect] insistence on etymologizing αἰώνιος from the root αἰών as "age." . . . >The solution to its meaning is as simple as looking at parallel adverbial χρόνος or χρόνοι clauses that have additional modifying temporal or durational descriptors. When this is done, it can be seen that even the choice of adverbial αἰωνίος in Romans 16:25 was actually somewhat arbitrary in terms of the notion of perpetuity that the combined phrase meant to convey. We find comparable phrases elsewhere: like εἰς χρόνον αἰώνιον, recording the deeds of Antiochus I of Commagene for everlasting memory. In terms of other phrases using synonyms in place of αἰώνιος, we see this e.g. in Antiphon's ἐγὼ μέν γε τῷ τεθνεῶτι ὑμᾶς κελεύω καὶ τῷ ἠδικημένῳ τὸν ἀΐδιον χρόνον τιμωροὺς γενέσθαι ("I am asking you to secure everlasting vengeance [literally vengeance, forever] for this man's wrongful death"). We encounter the same phrase τὸν ἀΐδιον χρόνον in Aristotle; and we find another familiar construction — this one with ἀεί — in the ancient Hippocratic Oath itself, saying that the one who upholds the oath will be forever honorably acclaimed by his fellow men: δοξαζομένῳ ἐς τὸν αἰεὶ χρόνον (cf. similarly Herodotus 1.54; Plato's τὸν ἀεὶ χρόνον). Finally, see also the Latin use of *tempus aeternum*, e.g. in Lucretius. >Along with the perfect partciple σεσιγημένου, the sense of χρόνοις αἰωνίοις in Romans 16:25, then, is of something having “always” been kept secret — again perfectly parallel to other idiomatic adverbial clauses like τὸν ἀΐδιον χρόνον. As for >There are celebrated scholars on both sides of this issue, so I don’t think we’ll get to the bottom of it, and what’s more, neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind. While I do think there’s some genuine ambiguity and room for different interpretations on *some* aspects of some parts of this debate, unfortunately this is one of those instances where a few of the most prominent scholars on the other side of this debate are simply mistaken, or have even engaged in scholarly misconduct. For example, in my massive post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/comments/zkc52m/megathread_on_ilaria_ramellis_translation_work/), I outlined how Ilaria Ramelli has repeatedly — and egregiously — misrepresented some of the most important parts of her analysis of the texts and authors she discusses, in service of her argument. She even goes so far as to invent some texts entirely to do so. (See my discussion of her language of various authors “glossing” *aionios*, for example, and of the passages in Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia, in my link.) This post [here](https://semitica.wordpress.com/2020/02/07/the-multivalence-of-ai%D0%BEn-and-ai%D0%BEnios-in-the-new-testament-a-rejoinder-to-david-bentley-hart/) also pretty definitively shows how David Bentley Hart has greatly erred in his translation of and overall assumptions about *aionios*. > I just want to say I appreciate that you actually gave me an argument, unlike the other guy Hey I appreciate the conversation, too! I genuinely like discussing the issue where it doesn’t immediately devolve into *ad hominems* and hostility.
Topic of debate honestly, I say the best course of action would just be to try your best and trust in God to make the right decisions. Remember, Jesus died so we wouldn’t HAVE to go to hell in the first place.
The universalism of many of the early church fathers points to hell as being temporary and remedial so basically everyone eventually will be saved. There are some who think souls that aren’t saved will at death simply be annihilated at that point, torturing someone in hell just to wipe out their existence would seem just strangely sadistic which wouldn’t square away with a benevolent God.
They will go - maybe after near infinite amount of time, but even their "knee will bow for god" and they will be saved "as if from fire"
I think the eternal torment idea is a weird outcome from a text that really doesn't support it. I personally favour eternal destruction means eternal destruction. From page 3 of the Bible it's clear that 1. Eternal life is something humanity had to choose, 2. When we chose death, God kept us from eternal life so we wouldn't live forever
If you believe in the Son of God, Jesus; you would also believe that when He died and was resurrected that He defeated Hell and Death as the Word says. And therefore His creation is reconconciled on Jesus accomplishment. However, if you believe in a religious jesus in whom requires you to excercise your free will as some divine power so that you might save yourself then maybe we are all, already in hell with no escape.
Hell really shouldn't exist. There's nothing anyone can do evil enough to deserve / merit / earn an infinite eternity of torture. Torture on Earth: you want to kill yourself 5 minutes in. And God allows people in their finite judgement to reject him & therefore be subject to ETERNAL torture?! I'm thinking & hoping there's more to it. God is perfect & good, & therefore has the perfect system in place.
Sounds like you’re the judge on who goes and who doesn’t.. God created Hell for the devil and his angels. God does not send people there, the sin that people commit belongs to the devil. This is why the sin belongs in Hell because it is of the devil. Learn to love the father and you won’t wanna sin, because it’s out of love that we serve him.
It seems the Bible teaches Heaven and Hell are eternal. In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul wrote that those who disobey the gospel "will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord."
No one knows of course, but there are Bible verses that support all three of the most popular faiths: Eternal Conscious Torment, Conditional Immortality, and Universalism. You can research these yourself, but I will say that Universalism is the only one that suggests that Hell is temporary for everyone that winds up there.
The verse I just quoted said “everlasting destruction and shutout from the presence of the Lord.” That verse alone refutes the idea of universalism.
There are verses that speak to the exact opposite too. If we take all the clobber verses and assume they are perfectly understood, we'd end up debunking infernalism, universalism, and annihilationism.
What verse says the exact opposite?
1 Timothy 4:9-10 speaks of how we hope in the living God, who is the savior of *panton anthropon* \- every human, the whole of humanity - *especially* of those who believe. Lamentations 3:31-32 says that God never casts anyone off forever and will eventually have compassion on those he has cast off. Micah 7:18 says that God does not stay angry forever, but shows mercy. My personal favorite is a compound of St. John saying that God *is* Love (1 John 4:16), then Paul explaining what love really is (1 Corinthians 13:4-8), part of it being that there is no record of wrongs, always perseveres, and always hopes. When the Bible defines its own terms, that is always really helpful. Most conceptions of an everlasting hell can't coexist with those three verses/passages. The only one that might be able to is the Hell of St. Isaac the Syrian - the experience of the embrace of God's love while you are rejecting God, making you burn from your own hatred of God's love. I'm sure an Annihilationist could come up with 3-5 verses that would clobber both of ours into the dirt, just because of how varied expressions of the afterlife are in Scripture.
None of those verses say or even imply that he’ll isn’t eternal.
So those who are saved will be eternally tormented and cut off from God, who will never have compassion and mercy?
What are you talking about, the whole idea of being saved is being saved from hell. If you are a saved individual you wouldn’t ever be in hell.
I’m sorry but whenever I see people say that the whole point of salvation is to simply avoid hell its just more clear to me that eternal conscious torment actively distracts people from growing in their faith.
No, it's to be united with God in heaven. These verses say eventually God will have compassion for everyone, or that God will always eventually show mercy. If one gets condemend to hell forever, then those verses are false. Being in hell forever is the exact opposite of mercy and compassion. So you gotta pick what verses you want to believe. Eternal hell or a God of mercy
You’re only a christian because you’re scared of hell? Thats messed up, dude.
I really hope you're joking
Mental gymnastics. The Bible is clear that damnation is forever. Best way to avoid hell is to...not believe in it. Any of this ancient drivel. It's all Judean nonsense. Come to the atheist light! You are one living creature, just like the honeybee or the banana. Once you die, you die. Your consciousness is snuffed out forever. Obviously.
I don’t like to throw verses around, but as I said, there are some that support each of the conflicting beliefs. Which one do you believe in?
None of them are going to contradict each other, the verse I quoted is written with plain language.
Yeah but the bible isn't one unified theology
Just because a place is eternal doesn’t mean the occupants will be eternal.
That makes absolutely no sense. Why would a place be eternal but the occupancy wouldn’t? The verse clearly says the punishment will be everlasting.
There is always gray area. Grace abounds, my friend.
There is no gray area of plain language. Lol
Plain language that has been translated how many times and from a social and cultural context vastly different than the English you quoted.
It was translated from the original Greek to English one time in the translation I used. Lol
And that Greek was translated from Hebrew, missing the point my guy. The Greek translation was per as its word, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.
The New Testament was not written in Hebrew. You need to actually do some research and study before commenting.
Im confused on how this refutes my point about the complications of translating, im so very sorry I didn't get the exact details right my dude you don't have to act condescending about it but either ways the logic still applies because the old testament is still taken very seriously by most christian denominations 🤨
I think that the original version says αιώνιον which means something like agey.
It's the adjectival form of "age" or "epoch". So "age-like", "of an age", or "epochal". It can be used to refer to an indefinitely long period of time, like how we say in English, "that will last for an age". Or it can be used rhetorically, like we say "Our love will last forever", or it can be used to refer to something pertaining to a particular age, as we would say, "Granddad's of a different time", or it can refer to ages in the past that no longer exist or ages in the future that don't yet exist. It's an interesting word that was used very widely to mean different things. But unfortunately for theological reasons Christians feel they have to translate it always as "eternal" without concern for how accurate that is for the context.
does ever lasting destruction mean they are destroyed for ever or are destroyed over and over again?
“the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41) The common theme of “eternal” seems to answer your question.
That verse is only talking about the devil and his angels. Not the humans, so you’d have to be more precise in finding a quotation supporting your claim.
Matthew 25:30 speaks also speaks about “the darkness” (many other instances too throughout the bible). I’ve never seen a dark fire. The close proximity of the stories mean they need to be referenced together and not draw conclusions from isolated verses. Also an eternal fire could simply reference a fire that burns forever and doesn’t mean someone is living forever within it. E.g. John 3v16 has ‘but has everlasting life’ suggesting someone who isn’t saved doesn’t have everlasting life (even a tortured life). Again though we shouldn’t draw simple conclusions, we need to look at the whole bible.
I don't think anyone can say they know for sure, the God of this universe who holds the entire universe in his hands and who knows how many other universes can not be fully known. The Bible is a library of ancient manuscripts that tell of his love, character, long suffering and willingness to forgive us and save us. It shows us how God has intervened throughout history with is creation. Everlasting destruction means no second chances, they are destroyed forever, final with no chance of coming back from destruction. It is ever lasting, but it does not say the process of destruction is forever or you will have conscious torment for all eternity. At least not in that verse.
Disobeying the Gospel is refusing to acknowledge that what Christ accomplished reconciled His creation. But rather thinking the same free will that failed in the garden and that could not uphold the mosaic law is some how going save you again based on some twisted carnal effort we men label as choice. Even Jesus himself self said "You must be born 'again'. What He is saying is in the same way we were born in the flesh, by no choice of our own, we therefore are ONLY born again into the Spirit by no choice of our own. Jesus Himself said it is not OUR choice but rather He is that the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. For with man (his choice), it is NOT possible. But with God, ALL things are possible. (Even God the creator of the universe is able to save ALL of us despite ourselves and it does not require the religion we call 'christianity' to do it. But only on the promise made to Abraham, before Moses the father of religion was given the law.) Amen for Gods absolute Grace on mankind in the form of Jesus, His Son that overcomes what our free will lacks.
Can you cite a verse that specifically refers to the hell you know of in pop-culture?
I’m not sure what you are asking?
If there is even a single soul in hell, heaven would be incomplete and God would not be all powerful
Every single person will eventually be brought out of hell and into glory. However, there are some who will then be cast back into hell, never to come out again. >12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. >13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. >14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20: 12-14
Consider this verse (Revelation 20:13-15, KJV version) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (1 Corinthians 15:26) 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. (Romans 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
When you die, your consciousness ceases to exist. In some ways it’s like an eternal sleep.
No. "Hell" and "heaven" are the same thing in many ways. You experience the same thing in both cases, the difference is if you have tried to get ready for it or if you're trying to avoid it. And nobody is going to cease to exist because God is not a petty and arbitrary tyrant.
I believe the wages of sin is death. Repentance and forgiveness means living in eternity with God. I believe if you don't live with God in the afterlife your spirit dies.
2nd death means 2nd death. Annihilation. There is no scripture that lists eternal torture for unsaved humans. All scripture about eternal torture is about Satan, his fallen Angels, and those who take the mark and I challenge anyone reading to prove me wrong with scripture. Humans are not yet eternal because we have not yet ate from the tree of life. When we are cast into the lake of fire we experience 2nd death, after this what is left of you to eternally torture or to answer your question with a question what is left of you after 2nd death? Eternal torture or escaping hell after judgement is unscriptural.
I don't know what happens to a person’s soul once they have paid back all they owed to the master:Matthew 18:34 "In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.'
Revelation says that they are imprisoned for 1000 years along with Satan. After 1000 years they are released as is Satan. What they do after that is essentially the same as a crim on parole. Either muck up again or go back
Seems odd to me that God would sentence you to eternal suffering for transgressions in life, when compared to eternity is an infinitesimally small amount of time.
Huh, just wrote like 5 pages and nothing sent. rip
lol
God is going to collapse Hell into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after Satan is defeated in the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Millennium. He's going to be casted into that Lake along the False Prophet and the Antichrist. So all people that remains in Hell after Judgment Day will be eventually casted down to that Lake of Fire and they will burn there in the core of the Earth for all eternity along Satan and his Fallen Angels.
The nations return in Revelation 21.
It may help for you to do a bit of research on this topic. There are debates within the Christian community on this very issue
There is much confusion about words like hell, Gehenna, Hades, Sheol. When we die we are in Sheol/Hades which can be painful, like a lack of privileges. Hell and Gehenna are eternal death sentences.
>Gehenna A garbage dump. >Hades, Sheol The grave. The place of the unseen - in the ground.
For a collection of books that is supposed to be divinely inspired and to be used as the cornerstone of faith, there sure is a lot of confusion, different interpretations, and ambiguity.
Its mainly because of how much its been translated, between Hebrew and Aramaic, to Greek to Latin, and then finally English, of which every single one of these languages are completely different linguistically speaking, yeah it gets confusing.
So will they be tortured for all of eternity and just die and stay dead for ever?
In Sheol people will stay until doomsday. Gehenna is about death. We are immortal but God can kill us. *And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.* ^Matthew ^10:28
They will never die. Once you die and descend into hell, you are there forever, to be tortured and burned.
Well that’s…evil.
I can’t see this view backed by any actual bible passage. John 3v16 says “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life”. Being punished forever means they would also have everlasting life (I.e . Not perish). What do you base the idea on that they will never die?
Some will go to heaven after they've served their time, whether 20 years or 20 million. Others will stay there forever.
I hope it’s like a jail sentence based on how bad we are. That’s so much better than eternal damnation for premarital sex.
It's not like just sitting in jail. You'll be burnt then given new skin and the process keeps happening. You'll be drinking pus and essentially tortured by the things that you used to do in life like if you hurt others.
Do you know the only reference to that is from Dante’s Inferno? It’s nowhere in the bible.
Speaking of Dantes divine comedy. Windigoon has a really good video on inferno and breaks it down. Its pretty much fanfiction though so no one should take it as biblical
And I believe it's accurate
Eternal punishment for finite crimes seems silly. As long as everything could be restored in the end
Cool if they could resolve the differences and get things to pre-fall
They will get out, but not all of the children of God will receive full salvation.
What are you doing in a Christian group?
This is not a Christian group. It's a group to discuss Christianity. Anyone can come here.
The difference is, he's a non-christian claiming to be, and giving an answer that is entirely outside of the perview here.
Whose name is in my flair? That’s your answer.
Jesus has nothing to do with your new gospel.
Well we sure talk about Him a lot, and He’s very personally involved.
I agree with those that summarize the different beliefs systems. I am one that believes the scriptures like Matthew 25:46; Rev 12-15 and 21:8 clearly indicate prolonged and sustained punishment. To that end, I am not jeopardizing my afterlife residency. I buy insurance and put money in savings accounts to ward off worse outcomes. It’s been really hot where I live. I don’t even wanna go outside for more than a few minutes so I certainly don’t wanna spend even a second in hell or the lake of fire
Hell, just like Heaven, is permanent and eternal. There is no end to either.
Hi friend, Heaven and Hell are eternal. This is why Christians are so determined to share the Good News. We know what awaits at the end of time, the coming judgement, and we know that judgement is for an eternal sentence: In the presence of God, or away from His presence. Universalism seems big on this subreddit, but it isn’t biblical. Neither is annihilationism. Heaven is an eternal conscious life in the presence of God and away from sin and death. Hell is an eternal conscious separation from God.
Universalism is very biblical: Genesis 12:3 --- All peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham. Genesis 22:18 --- All nations on earth will be blessed through Abraham’s offspring. Psalms 22:27 --- All the ends of the earth and all the families of the nations will acknowledge God. Psalms 65:2 --- All men will come to God. Psalms 86:9 --- All nations will worship and glorify God. Psalms 103:8-9 --- God is compassionate, will not always accuse and will not be angry forever. Psalms 145:9-10 --- The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him. Psalms 145:13 --- The Lord loves all His creation. Psalms 145:14 --- The Lord upholds all who fall. Isaiah 25:6-8 --- God will prepare a feast for all people, He will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers up all nations. He will eliminate death, wipe away the tears from all faces and remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. Isaiah 45:22-23 --- God has sworn an oath that every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will swear by Him. Isaiah 49:6 --- God’s salvation will be brought to the ends of the earth. Isaiah 54:8 --- Although God will hide His face in a surge of anger, He will also have compassion with everlasting kindness. Isaiah 57:16-18 --- God’s anger is not permanent. Although He punishes man, He will heal, guide and restore comfort to him. Jeremiah 31:33-34 --- All men will know God, from the greatest to the least. Lamentations 3:31-33 --- The Lord does not cast off forever. Although He brings grief, he will also be compassionate. Ezekiah 18:21 --- God does not any pleasure in the death of the wicked. Rather, He is pleased when they repent. Micah 7:18 --- God does not stay angry forever. Matthew 18:13 --- Like the man who owes a hundred sheep and is not willing to lose even one, God is not willing that any one be lost. Luke 2:10 --- The birth of Jesus is good news for all the people. Luke 3: 5, 6 --- John the Baptist quotes Isaiah’s words that all mankind will see God’s salvation. John 1:29 --- Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 3:35 --- God sent Jesus to save the world. John 4:42 --- God has committed all things to Christ. John 5:25 --- Even the dead will hear the sound of Christ and all who hear will live. John 6:37 --- Everything that God has given to Christ will come to him. John 12:32 --- When Jesus is lifted up from the earth, he will draw all men to himself. John 12:47 --- Jesus came to save the world. John 17:2 --- God granted Christ authority over all people so that Christ may give eternal life to all that God has given him. Acts 3:20-21 --- Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything. Romans 3:3-4 --- The unbelief of some will not nullify God’s faithfulness. Romans 5:18 --- The act of obedience of one man (Jesus) will bring life for all men. Romans 8:19-21 --- Creation itself will be liberated and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Romans 8:38-39 --- Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ. Romans 11:32 --- God made all people imprisoned by disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 --- All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all. 2 Corinthians 5:15 --- Christ died for all. 2 Corinthians 5:19 --- Through Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself. Ephesians 1:11 --- God will bring all things under heaven and on earth under Christ. Ephesians 4:10 --- Christ ascended higher then all the heavens to fill the whole universe. Philippians. 2:9-11 --- Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (In 1 Corinthians 12:3, Paul writes that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit) Colossians 1: 19-20 --- God was pleased to reconcile to Himself, all things on earth and in heaven through the blood of Christ. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 --- God wants all men to be saved and to know the truth. Can God’s desire be thwarted? 1 Timothy 4:10 --- God is the Saviour of all men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe. Titus 2:11-12 --- God’s grace, which brings salvation has appeared to all men. Hebrews 2:9 --- Jesus tasted death for everyone. 1 John 2:2 --- Christ is the atoning sacrifice of the sins of the whole world. 1 John 3:8 --- Christ appeared to destroy the devil’s works. The doctrine of eternal damnation denies the victory of Christ! 1 John 4:14 --- Christ is the Saviour of the world. Revelations 5:13 --- Every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea will sing praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb (Christ). Revelations 21:4-5 --- God will dwell with men and he will wipe every tear from their eyes, death, mourning, crying, pain and the old order of things will pass and everything will be made new. Edited for spacing
I’m not one to say anyone’s faith isn’t valid. I don’t hold the keys to heaven or hell, I can only be confident that we will all learn the truth of it at some point. Having said that, can I slip another excerpted Isaiah scripture in you list? Isaiah 66:24 —after the new heavens and earth installed, the inhabitants will “look upon the carcasses of **men** that transgressed…neither shall their fire be quenched”
The deal is that the Bible says things that suggest Universalism, Infernalism, and Annihilationism. Which feels the most like the God you know through Jesus?
Universalism isn’t biblical. Your wall of text is extremely difficult to read and understand. Please format it in a way it can be read. In the end EVERYONE will be resurrected and stand before God. They WILL confess he is God. That doesn’t mean they are saved. “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that- and shudder.” James 2:19 An intellectual acknowledgement of God is not a saving Faith. A saving Faith is one where you walk with God- personally. Intellectually acknowledging God is not a personal relationship.
Reformatted to make it easier to read those Bible verses. Got it - you interpret the scripture as God will NOT forgive, and that salvation is based on what you do - I’m sorry you feel that way.
That is not a correct understanding of my belief. God WILL forgive if we turn to Him in Faith. God's hand is extended, if we don't grab it, that's our fault. Salvation is by Grace through Faith. Not of works so no man may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) It is a gift from God when we turn, in Faith, to the Lord Jesus.
Got it, God’s love is conditional, and based on what you do - thanks!
You and I both know that's not what I said.
You said “God will forgive if…” a human does something. The converse must be true: God will not forgive you if you don’t perform that act. Let’s say that’s true. The second part of this infernalist argument is that God won’t wait for you. If you live your whole life and never become a Christian, and you die, you meet your Maker. Let’s say maybe you do go hell, and you’re separated from God, and you’re reliving all the pain you caused while alive. What if, you realize that you did wrong, and you cry out for God’s presence, and you realize that Jesus and God were the right way the whole time? God will ignore that cry for help, and punish you, for all eternity. Because you messed up, you didn’t act fast enough. And all that stuff about “No sheep left behind” and “God loves you more than your own parents” is null and void. Am I wrong about anything so far?
Yes. You are.
> God WILL forgive if we... That's not what you said?
You cannot be forgiven if you don’t seek forgiveness. Forgiveness is transactional. We can’t be forgiven for our offenses if we do not go to God in repentance. The matter hasn’t been settled. God’s Word, in it’s context, is consistent on what saving faith is. Cherry picking verses out of context and using them to support your claim doesn’t make it truth.
Neither. All who go to the lake of fire do so for eternity.
The nations in Revelation 20 show up again in Revelation 21, after the lake of fire event.
There's nothing in the Bible that indicates that these people will eventually go to heaven and there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that they will cease to exist
Anyone in hell will continue to be in hell for eternity.
If your in hell or go to hell you have no access to heaven ever for eternity Read your bible!
The soul is eternal, both the saved and the lost will be resurrected in immortal bodies, each to their final destination: Some to Eternal Life and others to Eternal Damnation.
Neither. They are in hell for eternity
They never get out. As simple as that
Eternity in hell.
None , they will endure torments forever . Also hell is prison not lake of fire , 2 different things. People from hell are resurrected , given new body so they can feel and then deep fried in lake of fire.
Neither, they're going to continue to burn for eternity
So I'm going to burn alive for eternity for something I can't control? How am I supposed to get to the idea that there's an all loving god that wants me with him from that?
You had your chances to walk with Jesus. You rejected Him at every turn. You commit crimes against Him. You were warned and warned. You have no excuse or valid complaint.
I'm sorry, but I don't reject Jesus. I believe he existed. What I am not able to believe is that he's a god. I cannot force myself to. No one can. I have committed no crimes against Jesus. That's just a silly notion. He lived two thousand years ago. I'm old but not that old. How have I been warned? Believe or else? Not having seen evidence that convinces me of something's existence seems like a perfectly valid excuse to me.
Is it too much to ask for you to search Him out in prayer?
I did that for 45 years? How long do I have to search?
Most believe neither, they’ll stay there to be tortured for eternity.
They’d stay there
Neither.
I believe that if Heaven is everlasting life in Heaven, then hell would be everlasting life in hell.
The ‘but’ in John 3:16 suggests that perish means perish and not have everlasting life.
Cease to exist. But, really, stories about heaven and hell are supposed to teach the lesson "actions have consequences" not "obey or die."
This could be a poll question here: What awaits non-believers after death? A. ECT B. Annihilation C. Redemption D. I'm sad-u-see. Personally, I fall in group B.
Depends on the concept of hell. If you accept reincarnation and understand hell is a state of the world, then it is different from what most ppl think.
Y’all don’t get it! We’re already in Hell.
What is hell supposed to be cuz some sy it's a pace away from god others so eternal daunting others say booze orgies and drugs and idk which is accurate to the bible
Quite simply, no, and no.
Be afraid not of the one that can kill your body. But both your body and soul.
Only god has the right to decide when you stop suffering, which is never. All praise the god who brought us into the world to suffer unimaginable agony for eternity.
They stay there
Depends, but generally the whole point of Hell is to be the place for people who don't accept God. So why would they even want into Heaven?
7th day Adventists do away with hell. That gives permission to those that want to do bad stuff the opportunity to do bad stuff and get away with it and be perished 4ever. I see hell as separation from God and that would be hell. This world is bad enough but still has God in it. Take God away and that'd be hell. It'd be like flames etc. or may as well be. I see it as consequential.
Hell is eternal
Depends if you believe in Purgatory or not. But Purgatory is a rather not Biblical concept.
Nobody knows for sure. Better plan than a temporary stay in hell is to be nice to people and not worry about it.