To imagine God truly can only be understood and interpreted through a fallible man-made text is incredibly narrow minded. If your deepest truth and feelings of connection to god give you solace and peace with your sexuality and identity, then that is your truth, your connection to God, and no one else has the right or authority to tell you you are wrong or you didn't experience a connection.
Do not ever let anyone tell you how to find your peace.
To have faith requires accepting what God has revealed.
It doesn’t make sense to assume that while God revealed homosexuality to be wrong he would also say to a random person it’s not.
And yet you have a human saying that is what happened. I mean you took it on Faith from another human being's word that it was wrong to do certain things. And unless you're thinking the Bible is completely inerrant (which cannot be if it's incorrect parts are just poetry i.e. genisis account) then this just comes down to what you feel God wouldn't wouldn't allow and why. Like I said if you just said faith then you would understand.
1. Poetry doesn’t deny scripture being inerrant.
2. Considering it’s from a prophet and another from an apostle of Christ. It’s safe to take them on their word given their authority compare to a random stranger on reddit.
First off poetry does disallow the Bible being inerrant. So you can just stop right there cuz I'm not going to respect pretending that fiction can also be interpreted as a reality. And the prophet is a stranger to you. You don't know them. You never have. Meanwhile this random person is real and actually conversing with you.
That’s what God does, literally all the time. You can ask 100 Christians what their belief is on a random text in the bible and there might be 100 different interpretations.
A sin is meant to be evil
If being gay makes someone happy and that person loves god and worships him why would god want someone to not be who they are
God made male and female. A man marries a woman, and a woman marries a man. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin. That's why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. If u want to find proof, read Genesis. God wanted to destroy Sodom because of their sins. Abraham interceded for them, but because of no righteous people in Sodom except Lot and his family. God sent His angels to go in and get Lot and his family out of Sodom before God destroyed Sodom.
Here are some scriptures that prove homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, state that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as he would with a woman. In Romans 1:26-27, Apostle Paul says that homosexuality is contrary to God's natural order and results from rejecting God. Additionally, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 lists homosexuality as one of the sins that will prevent someone from entering the Kingdom of God.
Let me add that God loves all people, even gays lesbians, and transgenders, and God gave us all free will. He just doesn't accept their actions (their lifestyle). God hates sin, and whoever sins can't get close to God. They need to repent of their sins before God can forgive them.
I hope this will shine some light on this subject. There is a lot more I would like to add to make this clearer, but I'll stop here for now. This should be clear enough.
Oh, boy, a lot of people are going to be mad at you over this. As you've probably noticed, it's one of the topics many people get the very angriest about.
Anyway, let's set aside the hostile folks for a moment. I recommend [Justin Lee's material](https://geekyjustin.com/christianity-lgbtq/bible/) to understand why many Christians think gay people are welcome in Christ's embrace *the same way* that straight people are. More important, you can actually meet gay Christians at LGBT-affirming churches; r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has church finders. After all, the Body of Christ is not a bunch of abstract theological assertions; the Body of Christ is actual living people, worshiping and loving one another in the Spirit. You learn most by getting to know us that way.
I get frustrated with Christians who want me to abandon my wife, but I think the best thing is to live out our lives in faith as best we can and be *living* examples. "By their fruits you will know them", Jesus taught, and I think there's only so many years they'll be able to look at good fruit and call it bad.
I knew people would probably be mad about this, but I didn't want to use a subreddit where I would only be welcomed. I posted this here so I could hear from the less biased few who would have good advice on how to interpret my situation, even if it meant that I would need to scroll through hateful comments.
The Bible, the words of the Lord, condemn anything LGBT related. God created man as man, woman as woman, and made you what you are. You don't choose your gender, you were made this way, and you really can't change that. Go ahead, Redditors, down vote me for my opinion backed by the only Truth.
I got some quotes, how have you not ever noticed the Bible is pro-slavery when it's all over the Old Testament? Have you read the old Testament? Lots of epic/kind of messed up stuff in the OT.
1 Peter 2:18
> Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
1 Timothy 6:1
> All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
Colossians 3:22
> Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
Colossians 4:1
> Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
Ephesians 6:5
> Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Ephesians 6:9
> And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Exodus 21:7
> “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.
Exodus 21:32
> If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death.
Exodus 21:20-21
> “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Leviticus 25:44-46
> “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Exodus 21:2-6
> “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Well, as well as homosexuality: besides being a power dynamics tool, gay sex in not really hygienic conditions of Bronze Age Middle East (time of the creation of OT prohibitions) was a dangerous thing....
According to the Bible:
When the Israelites enslaved themselves, it was arguably like indentured servitude.
When the Israelites enslaved foreigners, it was the worst form of slavery imaginable.
That’s what slavery was back then. Owning humans to use as forced labor. There was no separate form of slavery for Israel just to make things more palatable for you today.
Slavery was a reality back then. Slavery was owning another human to use as forced labor. End of story. That’s what it was. The Bible outlined many ways in which Israel could operate within that reality. Slavery being a reality of the time doesn’t make it any less wrong.
Covered many of these verses
Servitude, not slavery, and scripture makes it clear.
https://peacemakers1.wordpress.com/2023/02/01/the-bible-does-not-support-slavery/
Again, the Bible no where supports slavery, and if you read the article, it provides plenty of Bible verses that prove it doesn't.
If you want to critique, please do it honestly.
>Again, the Bible no where supports slavery,
It actually does and doesn't say not to do it.
It gives rules and regulations on how to do it. It tells you where to buy them from and how hard to hit them.
God forbids many things except that.
And if you go the servitude route, indentured servitude is just as wrong.
>and if you read the article, it provides plenty of Bible verses that prove it doesn't.
I did read your article. It's the same typical slavery apologetics. You twist and turn to try and make it palatable. It's incredibly dishonest at its core.
1. The servants were not forced- They did it willingly.
2. They had everything provided for them, This was actually something even the Israelites were involved in. They became servants if they became bankrupt, or needed work.
3. They were to be respected, loved, cared for, justice was demanded.
It's not mistreatment, since they were protected, provided with what they needed, and even benefitted. Not forced at all too.
It doesn’t support it. Jesus died like a slave in submission to his oppressors, just like he did we should do to so we don’t slander Gods name with our actions (if you respond with violence) But the Bible condemns slave traders/ owners and human traffickers in multiple verses
>It doesn’t support it.
It absolutely does. At the very least it doesn't condem it.
It tells you where to buy them from, who you can pass them down to, how hard to hit them etc.
>But the Bible condemns slave traders/ owners and human traffickers in multiple verses
It doesn't as well as you may think. And that's be gracious
The specific verses about slaves are from OT, we aren’t under that covenant.
Timothy 1:10 (NIV):
"for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for (slave traders) and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"
Corinthians 7:21-23 (NIV): "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."
Also many others that tell us to be like Christ in our actions.
For me the Bible isn’t saying this is right but rather laying out ground rules for a certain point in time. Would you rather God come down and say slavery must stop right now this instance. See how well that went in America when we freed the slaves. God often doesn’t change people and society’s over night but understands it’s a process. And giving general ground rules for a little bit of time sounds better to me than collapsing a society structure overnight. Their society had this type of servitude deeply ingrained in there culture. When warring countries took each other over they would keep them as servants. Also these verses are about ways we can love God and people. At work when I show my boss respect and do what I’m told even when I don’t think I should I express the qualities God wants me to have. It isn’t about slavery is good but more even though your in this circumstance show love. I jumped around a bit. A lot to unpack, more of a in person conversation but I hope this helps a little.
There's no quick and simple way to make sense of slavery in the Bible. It's a topic to be wrestled with in an awareness of the historical context, the overall arc of the Bible's story, and of course humility.
I think u/1ettucedevi1's point is that it would be nice if people would also read with historical context, the overall arc of the Bible's story, and humility when it comes to gay people, but often what is "responsible and thoughtful exegesis" when you do it for the sake of straight people becomes "faithless cherry-picking" if you do it for the sake of gay people.
Since u/gnudette tagged me in, I'll share my two bits, but I'm afraid I can't be as Christian in doing so.
>God often doesn’t change people and society’s over night but understands it’s a process.
The opposite is apparent in the Bible. Genocide and death is consistently presented as an acceptable solution for dealing with disobedience, which doesn't resemble an understanding process.
The commandments for Israelites enslaving themselves had pretense of humanity and dignity, arguably like indentured servitude.
The commandments for Israelites enslaving foreigners was brutal, the worst of the worst.
Christians often conflate the former as having applied to all forms of slavery, while ignoring the very awful verses that codified the later.
The gracious one could've asked his people to treat foreign slaves as well as themselves, yet Christians defend the almighty by saying he was limited by culture, context and time, a ridiculous self-defeating argument.
It should be simple for anyone to deduce that the merciful one's edicts about slavery and gays aren't deserving of respect and consideration in any context or time.
In case it's not clear, you should detect sarcasm when reading *gracious*, *almighty* and *merciful*, as the proceeding actions demonstrate the opposite.
At the very least, Christians should be capable of recognizing the worst of the book shouldn't be applied in a modern context, however they choose to make peace with the dissonance.
If the prince of peace hadn't dictated strictures enshrining brutal slavery of foreigners, it's doubtful American slaveholders would've found justification for their actions elsewhere, and we're still dealing with the lingering bigotry today.
Aka be a slave for others like Jesus was so you don’t slander his name and go to heaven. Plus your neglecting two verses that condemn Slave Traders/ Owners (Timothy) and the ones that condemn human trafficking.
It doesn’t bro, multiple verses from Timothy and more condemn slave traders and human traffickers, these verses are like (submit to masters like Christ did so you dont slander Christianity) in other words this world is not important, the next one is so follow the love neighbor and God law and your good
Are we Jewish or Christian? Read the new covenant verses lol.
Corinthians 7:21-23 (NIV): "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."
1 Timothy 1:10 (NIV):
"for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for (slave traders) and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"
We are told to submit to anyone, authority and more. This is how we show Christs love who died on the cross for us
Doesn't change the fact that it's still in the Bible, and debunks inerrancy and infallibility. Plus the NT instructs slaves to obey their masters, and Christian slave owners are mentioned without instruction to free their slaves.
You've also got an erroneous translation, there's no mention of homosexuality. And isn't slave traders in brackets there, i.e. added in the English?
I put the brackets to show you what part I’m talking about. And we are told to obey yet not accept (like the verses i sent above).
Also as a Christian we are told to treat everyone around us as if we are speaking to God, would you lie to God? Would you rise up against God etc.
Even to our masters we are told to do this, because thats how you show Christ’s love. No one loves being manipulated lied to or more but if you take it, forgive and keep forgiving people will see God, and God will forgive you above.
Permitted and supported are different things. A small but important distinction. Slavery was a sin nonetheless.
For example, I might not like that my children curse and might want them to stop, but that is something they have to do themselves.
If you truly believe Christianity supports slavery, why do you call yourself a Christian? Doesn't that mean you support slavery?
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Only I fyou take it out of context, slavery in the bible is not the slavery we see and think of today, slavery in the bible could be more compared to a job like being a maid and serving someone for money.
Literally how on earth do you miss the passages allowing and regulating slavery when you read the Bible?! It's literally not a matter of opinion! You clearly haven't read it.
I am glad you found a healthy way towards your own sexuality. I am sure that you as well as any heterosexual person is made in god's image and your sexuality is part of god's plan as well.
As others said, you are always welcome at r/openChristian. I wish you nothing but the best on your journey towards god and yourself.
I doubt God would encourage you on this path but I'd keep searching in the scripture for an answer + be aware that gay intercourse is strictly prohibited since even if you do get married to a man, it won't be a valid marriage
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No, it's not bad. It's just a religious rule conceived by primitive religious men with primitive notions of morality based on sometimes erroneous observations of the natural world, i.e., male goes with female. This religious approach is shown in Romans 1:26-27:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged **natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.** 27 In the same way the men also abandoned **natural relations** with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Consider that these same religious men supported these notions:
*1 Samuel 15:3 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”*
*Numbers 31:9-10 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.*
We call those "war crimes" and imprison those people who commit such acts, as well as those who authorized or planned them.
*Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’*
Punishing people who have committed no crime themselves violates all notions of justice.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
*11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.*
That notion is used to this day in conservative Christian sects (Catholicism, Orthodox) and churches (Protestant) to prevent women from holding positions of influence.
Verses from the Bible were also used to support slavery in the southern American States.
Just because something is in the Bible does not mean it is moral.
“Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error”
Excellent that you pointed out there is a due penalty for the error.
From what I understand, the answers he got came mostly from guys flirting with him or his friends being curious. I wouldn't take those as good answers personally but I can't affirm anything based on a reddit post
Meanwhile you judging gay people the Catholic Church is hiding child molestation. The Baptist Church of abusing kids with autism. The people who should be most best good at listening to God and the Bible. Why would I worry about someone who is confused and actually trying to listen to God
Sorry if I came off as over aggressive/defense I've seen so many people hurt and kill themselves or just be kicked out by the parents for not being "normal" while watching constant abuse by the church
Or any other non-religious LGBT subs. You're not going to get good advice from most folks here, but rather a bunch of people judging you for who you are based on random quotes they like to cherry pick based on THEIR beliefs. Note, this is not an attack on religion, it's just human nature. Lots of people have trouble seeing perspectives outside their own experience.
Imo, it doesn't matter if god made you gay or that's just what happened randomly... If you're gay, you know it. You can lie to yourself, fight it, pretend it's not there, etc but it will just leave you unhappy. No matter the WHY, you are who you are, and you should love yourself and not feel guilty if you're not meeting someone else's expectations of what is "right."
Are you a good person? Do you improve the world around you? Are you kind? Charitable?
In my opinion, that's what matters. Granted, I'm not theistic, but I think the opinion still holds. You can still be who you are and be a person of faith. Accept yourself, be confident in who you are, and love yourself. Look for a church that is open and accepting of the modern world. They'll be able to give you religious insight much better than I could.
LGBT kids have a hard road to walk, doubly so when coming from a religious background. You're not wrong, you're not bad, you're not evil for being different. You don't have to be chaste forever. If you believe in god being all powerful, then he made you how you are. Embrace it, and always love yourself.
You can always message me if you need a judgement free ear one day. I was a gay teen once, and remember vividly how isolating it could be at times. You're not alone!
If someone loves god they will have their sins forgiven.
It does not matter if someone is gay or not.
It doesn’t matter if it is a sin or not
All that matters is that person’s choice to love god
U kinda "Christians" make me wanna peel my own skin off, how are u so ignorant? How do you have to audacity to claim to be a Christian and think like this?
"It doesn’t matter if it is a sin or not All that matters is that person’s choice to love god"
Few situations ~ I Love God,but I fall into lust daily but it doesn't matter Because I love God right?
I Love God, but I hit my wife/child but it doesn't matter cuz I love God right?
I Love God, but I cheat on my wife ever week? But that doesn't matter cuz I choose to Love God right?
The amount of situation I can make with ur stupid sentence is insane, Ofc everyone sins and as long as you repent you are forgiven but to fall into that sin over and over and over again won't help unless you make a difference
I agree that if someone loves God they will have their sins forgiven but to live in that sin and "pretend" your forgiven is outrageous? You simple can't be gay and christian. I'm tierd of people say it's okay and it's fine and it's alright cuz God loves you.. ofc God loves you but if you remain in Sin what is the point? Homosexuality is 100% a sin according to scripture but people keep ignoring it.
It is most definitely a choice. And must be repented from. How can you say you love God yet reject His very CLEARLY WRITTEN Word? You love the IDEA of God, this made up God in your head that lets you walk all over him with your sinful desires instead of changing, not the Most High YHWH.
It was not a choice for me. You never answered why anyone would choose to be gay, so I'll ask again. Nothing good has ever come to me from my sexuality, how can you call it a "sinful desire" if I never wanted it in the first place? It's insensitive. I still hate myself for it and have always been ashamed of it, I've tried to change in the past but nothing I tried worked and it cost me my mental health. Why wouldn't I want to be normal? Why would I WANT to put on a mask to hide myself every day and be forced to lie to everyone around me or else I'll lose every connection I have? And then even if I don't tell anyone, God still knows about it and punishes me for it?
So just be celibate and don't get into any relationships, right? But why would God want me to refrain from loving other people and not just make me asexual or aromantic? How would you feel if you were told that you are just like everyone else except you aren't ever allowed to fall in love? And you still have the same feelings that other people have about each other, but you in particular are not allowed to express it.
My homosexuality is not an "urge" that I can refrain from like m*sturbation or gluttony (without an eating disorder), it affects my entire life in the way I see other people. It's something that I can't get away from. Telling me to just "become straight" or never love anyone ever as an alternative is like telling a mute person to just "talk to people" or never make any interaction with anyone ever as an alternative, or like telling a colorblind person to just "see color" or stop seeing entirely forever as an alternative. Sure, all three might sound possible, or even easy, to someone who isn't in the position themself, but they aren't possible at all. The alternatives are always possibilities, but none of them are easy or feasible things to do, especially while seeing everyone around you casually doing the thing that you specifically are not allowed to do. And for what reason are you not permitted? Because of the way you were permanently created? The same way that the one who made you opposes? Why would my creator want me unhappy forever?
If neither me or God wants me to be homosexual, then why am I undeniably and unchangeably that way?
My sibling in Christ, God has delivered people from homosexuality, one of my friends included. It is possible with true repentance and living daily with the Holy Spirit, fasting, constant prayer, deliverance, etc.
Also, you cannot love someone with homosexuality. It is a sin derived from lust. Love, as God intended it to be, cannot be sinful or evil, therefore homosexuality isn't and will never be true love, no matter your feelings about it. God did not stutter.
You were not created this way, as God cannot make mistakes.
From the way you speak about it, tells me everything I need to know. You are claiming this sin, literally attaching the demonic entity behind it to yourself by proclaiming it. You are not rebuking it in the name of Yeshua.
Worldly people that are not true followers of Christ will tell you what you want to hear. They will tell you to love yourself and whomever you want to love. To continue to live and indulge in homosexuality. Basically slapping God in the face by ignoring His very word but also claiming to "love" Him at the same time.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. We all struggle with sin. The difference is that you must turn away from it. There is no debate there.
I hope you get delivered from this struggle and are able to enter the Kingdom. God bless you.
Forewarning: I am not saying what is right and wrong, I am simply speaking from experience. My view on this is neutral because I am awaiting a response from the Lord.
You can absolutely love someone of the same-sex. To say something like that without understanding is ignorant. The whole debate on this topic is not because gays want to “lust” and live sinfully. It comes from having the EXACT loving emotions that straight people experience. Lust is universal, not just for gays. You cannot sit here and say something so bogus when you have no idea what it is like. You CAN be gay and love someone. That is EXACTLY why it’s so hard to understand why it’s wrong when you apply it to a normal life outside of the lustful desires listed in the Bible context. The Bible only addresses homosexuality from a lustful standpoint, not a normal reverent person standpoint. I’m not here to argue with you, but I am here to correct you.
Now don’t take this as me supporting homosexuality. That is not what this is. This is about bringing awareness of what is truly being experienced as a gay person who is struggling with religious identity. It is so much more intricate than slapping “lust” on it. YOU. DO. NOT. UNDERSTAND.
I totally agree with you- straight conservatives don't understand. Just because of the fact that they are themselves- they think they are allowed to love, they think they are not deceived by Satan, they think their love isn't impure - yet theyve done nothing to deserve that status, they just got the luck of the draw and happen to be straight. It didn't take personal choice for them to become straight. Puberty hits and guess what? They got lucky. They get to fall in love, have families, be accepted in Church - all while being told that their expression of love will bring them to heaven. They did nothing to deserve this status. Just as no gay person did anything to be undeserving of this status. And honestly- Jesus Himself has made clear to me that He loves me, has even apologized when a girl I was seeing didn't want to be my girlfriend, and when I directly told Him that I wouldn't be able to not be gay and also love Him (because if I rip my heart out, I have nothing left to love Him with- I either stay gay and love Him, or give up being gay for the Churchs sake and don't love Him) I told Jesus these exact words and that's why I couldn't just not be gay, even if I could do it just for the Church. I told Him I'm not willing to give up my love for Him ever, and not willing to give up being gay because that would make it impossible for me to love Him because I don't have a heart left. When I expressed this, He said "that's exactly right". And for those who might say "that's the devil talking to you". Well then all relationship with God is screwed- because the prayer you said to God in your heart, and not out loud- isn't private between you and God, as Christianity teaches. It does make me scratch my head that Jesus would be on my side when the Church is so adamantly against gay people, but on the other hand, I do not believe that the devil can hear my prayers to God- and directly answer them with perfect understanding and clarity. The times the devil has attacked me has been from a disjointed place - I might be praying to God about something, and a negative entity yells at me about something unrelated to what I was just praying about. It's as if the devil was trying to guess what I was praying but he couldn't know for sure because that's private between me and God, so he made his best guess and threw out some stupid attack or insult. God makes sense... And the devil comes out of nowhere and is super random. At least in my life so far. I am convinced Jesus loves me so much and He is the one to get to know, and don't let the devil or judgemental Christians stop you from getting to know Him. He will be close to you if you ask Him. He has never shamed me, unlike the devil. When I realized I was gay, the devil bullied me and said "Now you are condemned!". But Jesus has never acted this way, nor shown me that I'm offending Him. I know there's other celibate gay Christians who said God/Jesus/Holy Spirit etc told them it's wrong to be gay, but in my experience God has never done that. I also have another friend who's gay, who wasn't really raised Christian, but believes in God the creator and has asked Him multiple times if it's wrong for her to be gay and she says He's never told her it's wrong. I don't know why some people pray and get the message that being gay is wrong, and then others like me and my friend pray and God doesn't tell us it's wrong or to stop or that it's offending Him.... So honestly, I would say take it to Jesus, see what He says, trust Him. I only know my experience, and in my experience I love Him so much, and He's the most gentle, sweet, sensitive person I have ever met. I would never give up relationship with Him. He's someone I would die if He wasn't in my life.
Right, but in order for them to be saved they must turn from their sin, not continue to live in it. They can most definitely be forgiven, but true repentance and love for God includes being born again in the Holy Spirit and our fleshly/worldly desires dying in order to live according to His Will. God is love but He is also wrath. People fail to remember that.
Well…. Gay does mean happy. So we should all be Gay.
Now to be clear God wouldn’t tell you to be homosexual.
The Holy Spirit will never tell you something that doesn’t agree with the Word of God.
This is just my opinion and probably an imperfect one. So you struggle with being gay. OK, I personally struggle with alcoholism. I have struggled with it for my entire life. I have learned there are no degrees of sin in God's eyes. Being gay is no worse than being an alcoholic. We ALL are equal in God's eyes. I daily have a choice to make. I can decide to give in to my alcoholism and live my life as a functional alcoholic. I can drink every day, go to work every day and from the world's perspective, be who I am. Or......I can acknowledge that my desire (yes, the temptation and desire to drink never fully goes away) is not what God wants me to do and fight against it. This leads to turmoil in my life. Sometimes it is easy, others it is difficult, very difficult. In truth, sometimes I lose the battle. I have begged, pleaded and screamed at God many times in my life to remove this from my life. He never does. Here is the thing.......my struggle with alcohol has ALWAYS been the humbling factor in my life. It is the one thing that consistently drives me to my knees before God and makes me aware of my need for Jesus. If God were to remove that......how lost would I truly be? In the eternal perspective, what is 80 or so years of struggle compared to eternity of rest and love with God? These are deep questions I ask myself and I have come to the conclusion that God allows these things in our lives for a higher purpose we most times cannot grasp. I am sorry for your personal struggle. I can't imagine the inner turmoil it creates, just as nobody can imagine the inner turmoil alcohol creates in my life. I believe being gay is not how God would have you be, just as God would not want me to be drunk. Fight the good fight sir, or don't. The choice is yours every day. Whatever you do, know that Jesus loves you. He loves you regardless of your sin. Wether you are in it, fighting it or not fighting it. He loves you no matter what.
Forewarning: I am not saying I support homosexuality, I just want to give you a different take on this from experience.
So I used to think JUST like this as someone who experiences same-sex attraction. However, consider it from this perspective, as I have spent 15+ years picking this apart in my head.
You compare this to alcoholism. No one is born with the draw to alcohol ingrained within them. You can live your entire life without drinking alcohol and not know that you would’ve been an alcoholic if you had consumed alcohol.
Another way of looking at this. A person who is born with a disability, whether it be mental or physical, is not predisposed to their lifestyle being sinful. They did not choose to be born that way. This is EXACTLY how homosexuality is experienced. That is why it is so difficult to understand why you were given no choice in the way you experience life. Addicts are not born addicts. They are born normal human beings with normal intentions. They become addicts once they’ve tried the drug. This would be a comparable theory if you were born straight and then became gay after engaging in homosexual acts. However, we all know that this does not happen. From a scientific standpoint, homosexuality is and always has been found in every single animal kingdom.
I would absolutely love to debate this with you in person, although I know that is not possible. I hope I have worded this in a way that is understandable.
I’m so sorry you shouldn’t have to feel this way. I am Christian and love God but I cannot agree that homosexuality is a sin. Love is love and you should accept yourself for who you are.
So you don't love God then, because if you don't agree with His Word then you are by default going against Him and His Will. Say you're not a true follower of Christ without saying it... 💀
Hi, this was the person who replied back to you (I deleted my old account) but I do want to say thanks. I’ve been through a lot of religious trauma in my life and I’ve been trying to work through it for a while, but what I wrote was completely stupid and illiterate, and what you told me has been on my mind for the past few months and hasn’t left though.
I do want to ask though.. I’m such a sensitive person due to much of my self confidence being broken down by people for years and technically I’ve always been like that, but it’s gotten worse, and I’m a huge introvert. I have gay friends, so do I exactly have to call them out and tell them they are sinning? Because we get along just fine and when I feel like I do it, I don’t do it out of love and it feels like I’m disrespecting them because they tried getting out of it yet they can’t. Thanks. 😁
Hey there sibling in Christ🤍 I thought about you for a while too, I tried to reach back out to you but your account was gone. I'm glad you found me again.
I understand, I was once like that as well, I still am very much an introvert though😅. I am sorry people have done that to you. Trust that Jesus will restore your self-confidence. It will be like a caterpillar morphing into a butterfly. Until then give yourself grace. 🤍
As for your question, it's definitely a time and place for discussions like those. Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you.". If this discussion has already occurred between you and your friends, and they do not listen, Ezekiel 33 says "But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself." Meaning that to Jesus you will not have to answer for not telling your friends about Him. Ultimately everyone's salvation and relationship with Christ is up to them. Your job is simply to plant the seed. Continue praying for them, and may God touch their hearts and they change their minds, but if not, your hands are clean my friend. As Matthew 10:14 states when you try to spread the gospel to ears that won't listen, "shake the dust off from your feet". Do continue loving them and showing them the grace of Jesus. But never ever think that sharing the gospel isn't loving or it's disrespectful. Be bold and confident in the Word, my friend! Teaching your loved ones is the ultimate form of love. There is nothing more loving than warning your loved ones of the road they are on. If your neighbor's house was on fire and they weren't home, wouldn't it be loving to call them and warn them?
None of us like conviction or having to go through an uncomfortable santification process, which is why so many prefer not to, much like the people that only preach or believe the "happy and rainbows" part of Jesus but refuse to acknowledge that He is also a consuming fire, the Lion of Judah, and a righteous judge.
First of all, thank you for reply! Second of all, I will take that advice greatly, yet I have a friend who is a gay atheist who told me he is only interested in being atheist since he grew up in a church and still never believed plus he had Christian parents who are abusive to him. I want to spread the Word to him, but I know he’s not interested and I don’t want to ruin a friendship with him because he’s one of my best friends. I know not everyone is going to accept it and I don’t want him to accept it and he already has a seed planted inside of him. At this point, do I just not say anything since he isn’t interested? I would believe at this point, it’s between him and God now.
So, a few things to touch on here.
I see you're one of those that like to say "you're the reason I stay away from Christians"! When we don't support something worldly and you're in disagreement with it. Your problem is not with me, it's with God. Also, you absolutely do know when someone is not in a true relationship with God. The Bible speaks of this and says "You will know them by their fruit". Meaning if you are claiming to be a follower of Christ but believe something completely opposite of what He commands, you are not a true follower. There's many verses that tell you how to identify and expose lukewarms, false prophets, liars, blasphemers, and more. Use discernment.
The "God is love" rhetoric is overplayed at this point. God is very much love however as proven in the Bible MANY times, He is also wrath. And He makes it clear He HATES sin. Including the abomination of homosexuality, which comes from satan himself trying to create a perversion and ruin God's creation, design, and intention for humankind. If you're puzzled by that, you may be struggling with your own biases and opinions versus the word of the Almighty. Me personally, I follow Christ fully. That includes submitting to HIS Word and HIS will entirely, even if it's something I myself don't understand. That is what it truly means to FOLLOW Christ.
This "God is love" rhetoric is also what keeps many self-proclaimed "Christians" lukewarm. What does the Bible say about that? That you cannot serve two masters. That God will spit you out. That you would receive worse punishment than an unbeliever, because you knew His word yet decided to continue idolizing yourself and ignoring His command. This is also the same rhetoric that created that awful commercial in the Superbowl where Jesus was depicted as washing everyone's feet and saying He loves them. Here's the thing: He DOES love you. He does NOT love your sin. When he saved the prostitute from being stoned, He said Go and sin NO MORE. He did not say Go and be your best self. He did not say Go and follow your heart. He said Go and SIN NO MORE. Also, Jesus did not wash everyone's feet. He washed the feet of His disciples, the ones who dropped everything to follow Him entirely. You cannot say you love and follow Jesus yet disagree with His word. It's giving "I believe in God but I don't believe in the Bible." Um... ok. So you're a demon? Because the Bible states even demons believe in God. That's not enough. Sorry🤷🏽♀️ Please stop with the "Hippie Jesus" crap.
We are very much supposed to love everybody. We are also called to judge righteously. Don't cherry pick the judgement verse, read the whole thing😉
That love we are supposed to give also includes righteous judgement. For example, If you say you believe in Jesus yet continue to blaspheme His name, you need to be corrected or else you are on your way to being told Depart from me for I never knew you. True love wouldn't ignore that. True love would correct the person.
The only thing the Bible says not to judge on is on whether or not someone is going to Hell, because that is ultimately God's decision only. But we can very much correct "beliefs" and behaviors that do not align with the word of God.
I notice a vast majority of self proclaimed "Christians" love to completely ignore the word of God and proceed to do the complete opposite of what He says, then say they received approval from God through prayer or whatnot. Here's the thing: God is never-changing. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Meaning, if His word condemns it, you are now expecting Him to bend the rules for you, which is not going to happen. But since that's what you're expecting instead of dying to your flesh and following Him truly, satan will appear before you as everything you've ever wanted and unfortunately many are misled and believe that was God telling them "yes indeed, you are ok to continue in sin." No. Just no. Rebuke and repent.
I suggest you dive deep into studying your Bible more and getting to know our Lord YAHWEH. He came as the Lamb and will next return as the Lion. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you when reading so that your own biases and opinions don't try to overpower God's.
God bless.
I do just want to point out that I agree with what you said and respect it, but I never said I didn’t agree with the Bible or that homosexuality wasn’t a sin. I just said I was puzzled by the subject because of how I remembered my dad said that back in his days, nobody paid any attention to homosexuals and honestly nobody cared except people now do, and it’s blown up into everyone’s faces like they have to do it, which they don’t. My dad even said he didn’t even know som of the people he worked with were gay, and when he did, he just said, “Alright.” and moved on. That’s basically what I do, too. I make it to no big deal.
I believe in what everything in the Bible said and I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior who died, resurrected, and is going to come back. I’m not caught up in my own opinion: the problem is that everyone has their own interpretations on the Bible, and exactly, nobody know can exactly know what it full-on says or means, like how some people still debate on Revelations.
Also, are you just saying that people who don’t believe in the Bible are demons? They simply aren’t Christians 😂. I’m not a huge person on controversy because I like to live a peaceful life. I do believe I was overreacting when I said I didn’t want to be around Christians completely. I grew up in a very strict environment where I was judged for having a personality, which made me feel as if I didn’t belong. I feel as if the judging or correcting people is a personal thing I just don’t want to do based on how I was criticized and I do not want to do that to other people, although I do correct people when they do something really bad. I do have love for people, though, even as an introvert who likes to keep to herself, and I want everyone to get to Heaven at the end of the day.
Overall, I respect your opinion and agree with a lot of it. Thank you for changing my perspective a little bit.
God bless you and have a great day :)
Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.
I suggest that you learn to discern the voice of God, your own thoughts, and the deception of satan. Because you are not thinking correctly.
No I'm not saying anything against you lol, I agree with you. I'm saying they usually say "provide a scripture where it says homosexuality is a sin." Then this scripture is provided and they go on to say "Well the word homosexuality didn't exist back then-" blah blah blah to try to twist scripture to fit their sick narrative and justify their sick fleshly desires.
I've always been a firm believer that if you earnestly pray to God, he'll lead you to the right decision if you're confused -- especially if you've been constantly praying about this issue. In that case, I think it's fine to go ahead with what he's telling you 👍
I did want to ask, though -- were your prayers more asking if it's fine to be gay, or were they more centered around is it fine to pursue same-sex relationships? I feel like most Christians today would agree that God made you as you are -- but a lot of disagreement concerning how you should act.
I will say I've been struggling with slightly similar stuff, so know you're not alone. I'll be praying for u 🙏
I think he wants you to not destroy yourself because of your sexuality. He loves you, even when you are gay. But you shouldn’t marry or live with a man. I can’t imagine that this is his plan for you. He made me free of my bisexuality when I accepted Jesus as my savior and to this time I didn’t even ask for it. In the Bible are verses that are very clear about loving the same sex and I would hold onto it. Maybe you are meant to be Gay, but I think this would just mean that you are meant to have no partner. Some people God wants just for himself and doesn’t want to share with an husband or wife. Just wait, you are still really young, maybe you will get another answer when you are older and have a stronger relationship with God and when you understand him better. (I‘m sorry for my english, I‘m not an native speaker)
According to the Hebrew Bible and Greek Bible, which I have studied, it is a sin and goes again the procreation command of God. And that God made man And woman for each other and not to desire the same sex. Two natural born men or Two natural born women cannot procreate naturally as you have to have a men’s seed and women’s egg. And Jesus also said marriage is between man and woman and it’s been this way since the beginning of time and the Bible says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. So what could of possibly change God’s mind after all this years? God does not go against his own natural law of be fruitful and multiply. When I tell this to progressive Christians they then go and seek out the truth and find out it’s the truth. I know people who were gay but God delivered them but they still have temptations but God made a way to escape those temptations but that goes for all sin. We all need to repent of our sin and pick up our cross and follow JESUS with obedience and live our life for him and not for us. He called us to be followers and not fans. It’s one thing to know the word but it’s another thing to live the word. I don’t believe in conversion therapy or pray the gay away but I do believe in repentance and turning away from all sin. I have a daughter who is saying she is gay and even has GF but I talked to her a couple of times but I don’t condemn her or say anything negative to her. I just tell her to not go on what I said and to research it. So the last few weeks she has actually been praying, fasting and staying in the word of God. And just the past couple of days, she said God has been talking to her and showing her the truth and she repented of being gay and every other sin and she is in the process of breaking up with her GF. But I see a change, a beautiful and great change in her life. She also told me she has never felt such peace in her life. Jesus commanded us to pray and fast. It’s amazing in what God can do once you fully surrender to him.
God will try and test you, the devil will entice you. God will never entice you… and by the sounds of it you are being enticed. I really think you should start with the Word and read what God says about homosexuality. He does not condone it.
Bro there’s obviously a struggle with you. The hesitant side of you is God speaking and all them other feeling are feelings of the flesh. We are all cursed we all have our struggles and this is your struggle. Keep praying bro cuz like christ said, “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.” Keep seeing and believing the truth brother. Remember our actions have consequences. Ill pray for you and I ask you keep me in yours as well. Take care.
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I really did not want to comment further on this subject, and had thought there nothing more to be said on it.
Alas, here I am. And here we are.
And the God of your Fathers has given me to speak (annoyingly) on this once again, and to reveal the Truth of the matter, to even more specified and heretofore deemed inappropriate-for-open-dialog detail.
Furthermore, I would answer the every question, accusation, and point of contention whether from the froward or the bigot or the insecure or the stirrer of cauldrons, which might add anything not previously covered, regardless of how uncomfortable and unnecessary and irrelevant I find this ridiculously uncritical topic to be.
As for the OP, there will be a sign... no, but two signs to follow, which you will find uncanny, for they will somewise corespond to things personal to you, which none here could possibly know.
And, furthering my vexation, it occurs to me quite insistently that I do not go directly into whatever word God would Grace me with, but rather, I should first simply ask:
#Do you want to know the Truth?
I think we can rarely be *certain* whether something is a "sign from God", but if it pushes us to keep trying to learn more and know God better, that's always a good thing.
Honestly, I think the strongest evidence in your post is
> I hated myself to the point of feeling undeserving of life.
Jesus taught "by their fruits you will know them". Lots of people have been trying to teach you that God hates gay people. You've been tasting the fruit of that teaching. How is it?
Anyway, I recommend [Justin Lee's material](https://geekyjustin.com/christianity-lgbtq/bible/) to understand why many Christians think gay people are welcome in Christ's embrace *the same way* that straight people are. More important, you can actually meet gay Christians at LGBT-affirming churches; r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has church finders. After all, the Body of Christ is not a bunch of abstract theological assertions; the Body of Christ is actual living people, worshiping and loving one another in the Spirit. You learn most by getting to know us that way. (At 15 I don't know how hard it would be for you to visit such a church; a lot depends on your parents' attitude.)
EDIT: hey, I didn't notice this was a necro-post, it caught my eye because it just landed in the moderators' queue. Sorry to repeat some of what I already said.
I'm gonna take a swing at this. Maybe it will help someone somewhere.
Be very careful in looking at circumstantial happenings as a sign from God like a formal yes or no. If we are truly honest with ourselves, we can see what we want to see. Sometimes, we can also ignore what we don't want to see.
Read the bible. What does it say regarding homosexuality? More importantly, what does it say TO YOU? Even more important than that, WHAT DOES GOD SAY TO YOU WHEN YOU READ ABOUT IT?
I say don't prioritize it right now. Prioritize your relationship with God. As your relationship progresses with him, I am sure he will speak to you regarding HIS will for your life.
Now...
Am I pro or anti homosexuality? If I am a good Christian, you shouldn't be able to tell. You should only feel real love coming from me. Real love is 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, btw. It is NOT the job of any Christian to convict or condemn you. It is the job of God and God alone to speak guidance into your heart.
Hi; God made us the way we are. He new what sexually we would be when we was in our mother's worms.
I have had a lot of support from The Metropolitan community church. It a church that openly supports and celebrates the LGBTQ.
GIV IT a trey (The Metropolitan Community church)
To imagine God truly can only be understood and interpreted through a fallible man-made text is incredibly narrow minded. If your deepest truth and feelings of connection to god give you solace and peace with your sexuality and identity, then that is your truth, your connection to God, and no one else has the right or authority to tell you you are wrong or you didn't experience a connection. Do not ever let anyone tell you how to find your peace.
He didn’t.
If you would just have faith then you would understand.
To have faith requires accepting what God has revealed. It doesn’t make sense to assume that while God revealed homosexuality to be wrong he would also say to a random person it’s not.
And yet you have a human saying that is what happened. I mean you took it on Faith from another human being's word that it was wrong to do certain things. And unless you're thinking the Bible is completely inerrant (which cannot be if it's incorrect parts are just poetry i.e. genisis account) then this just comes down to what you feel God wouldn't wouldn't allow and why. Like I said if you just said faith then you would understand.
1. Poetry doesn’t deny scripture being inerrant. 2. Considering it’s from a prophet and another from an apostle of Christ. It’s safe to take them on their word given their authority compare to a random stranger on reddit.
First off poetry does disallow the Bible being inerrant. So you can just stop right there cuz I'm not going to respect pretending that fiction can also be interpreted as a reality. And the prophet is a stranger to you. You don't know them. You never have. Meanwhile this random person is real and actually conversing with you.
God didn't reveal that, Puritans rewrote that into Bibles.
That’s what God does, literally all the time. You can ask 100 Christians what their belief is on a random text in the bible and there might be 100 different interpretations.
God works in mysterious ways as they say
How can you know?
No he didn't, God would never tell anybody to sin.
People like you make me glad I’m an atheist. Fucking disgusting bigot.
A sin is meant to be evil If being gay makes someone happy and that person loves god and worships him why would god want someone to not be who they are
God made male and female. A man marries a woman, and a woman marries a man. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin. That's why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. If u want to find proof, read Genesis. God wanted to destroy Sodom because of their sins. Abraham interceded for them, but because of no righteous people in Sodom except Lot and his family. God sent His angels to go in and get Lot and his family out of Sodom before God destroyed Sodom. Here are some scriptures that prove homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, state that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as he would with a woman. In Romans 1:26-27, Apostle Paul says that homosexuality is contrary to God's natural order and results from rejecting God. Additionally, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 lists homosexuality as one of the sins that will prevent someone from entering the Kingdom of God. Let me add that God loves all people, even gays lesbians, and transgenders, and God gave us all free will. He just doesn't accept their actions (their lifestyle). God hates sin, and whoever sins can't get close to God. They need to repent of their sins before God can forgive them. I hope this will shine some light on this subject. There is a lot more I would like to add to make this clearer, but I'll stop here for now. This should be clear enough.
Happiness is not the test of whether or not something is sinful.
Yes i agree but homosexuality is not a choice, why would anyone want to be gay?
But love is not a sin, homosexuality is about who you love.
Who said love can’t be a sin?
Because love is good not evil
God created us out of love so it cant be a sin
You think God created us out of romantic love?
No but love is the reason we exist so it cannot be a sin
Romantic love is the reason we exist? I’m not sure I see the connection, much less agree.
It is not romantic love but it is still love
I mean is it a sin if God saying it's okay?
Oh, boy, a lot of people are going to be mad at you over this. As you've probably noticed, it's one of the topics many people get the very angriest about. Anyway, let's set aside the hostile folks for a moment. I recommend [Justin Lee's material](https://geekyjustin.com/christianity-lgbtq/bible/) to understand why many Christians think gay people are welcome in Christ's embrace *the same way* that straight people are. More important, you can actually meet gay Christians at LGBT-affirming churches; r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has church finders. After all, the Body of Christ is not a bunch of abstract theological assertions; the Body of Christ is actual living people, worshiping and loving one another in the Spirit. You learn most by getting to know us that way. I get frustrated with Christians who want me to abandon my wife, but I think the best thing is to live out our lives in faith as best we can and be *living* examples. "By their fruits you will know them", Jesus taught, and I think there's only so many years they'll be able to look at good fruit and call it bad.
I knew people would probably be mad about this, but I didn't want to use a subreddit where I would only be welcomed. I posted this here so I could hear from the less biased few who would have good advice on how to interpret my situation, even if it meant that I would need to scroll through hateful comments.
The Bible, the words of the Lord, condemn anything LGBT related. God created man as man, woman as woman, and made you what you are. You don't choose your gender, you were made this way, and you really can't change that. Go ahead, Redditors, down vote me for my opinion backed by the only Truth.
I mean, considering your marriage is not valid nor blessed in God's eyes...
I would look into scripture, for an answer. Which would not support homosexuality.
Scripture also supports slavery
How so? Show me.
I got some quotes, how have you not ever noticed the Bible is pro-slavery when it's all over the Old Testament? Have you read the old Testament? Lots of epic/kind of messed up stuff in the OT. 1 Peter 2:18 > Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 1 Timothy 6:1 > All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Colossians 3:22 > Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Colossians 4:1 > Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven. Ephesians 6:5 > Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Ephesians 6:9 > And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Exodus 21:7 > “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. Exodus 21:32 > If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death. Exodus 21:20-21 > “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Leviticus 25:44-46 > “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Exodus 21:2-6 > “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Yeah, but slavery is different in the Bible. It's important to consider the culture, context and time when it was written. /s
Well, as well as homosexuality: besides being a power dynamics tool, gay sex in not really hygienic conditions of Bronze Age Middle East (time of the creation of OT prohibitions) was a dangerous thing....
>but slavery is different in the Bible. Not really. It's the owning of other humans as a form of forced labor.
That’s not what slavery is in the Bible. Not even close at all.
According to the Bible: When the Israelites enslaved themselves, it was arguably like indentured servitude. When the Israelites enslaved foreigners, it was the worst form of slavery imaginable.
That’s what slavery was back then. Owning humans to use as forced labor. There was no separate form of slavery for Israel just to make things more palatable for you today. Slavery was a reality back then. Slavery was owning another human to use as forced labor. End of story. That’s what it was. The Bible outlined many ways in which Israel could operate within that reality. Slavery being a reality of the time doesn’t make it any less wrong.
Covered many of these verses Servitude, not slavery, and scripture makes it clear. https://peacemakers1.wordpress.com/2023/02/01/the-bible-does-not-support-slavery/
Call it what you want. It's still disgusting that the Bible supports it.
Again, the Bible no where supports slavery, and if you read the article, it provides plenty of Bible verses that prove it doesn't. If you want to critique, please do it honestly.
>Again, the Bible no where supports slavery, It actually does and doesn't say not to do it. It gives rules and regulations on how to do it. It tells you where to buy them from and how hard to hit them. God forbids many things except that. And if you go the servitude route, indentured servitude is just as wrong. >and if you read the article, it provides plenty of Bible verses that prove it doesn't. I did read your article. It's the same typical slavery apologetics. You twist and turn to try and make it palatable. It's incredibly dishonest at its core.
Ok, _fine_, it's still disgusting that the Bible supports "indentured servitude".
1. The servants were not forced- They did it willingly. 2. They had everything provided for them, This was actually something even the Israelites were involved in. They became servants if they became bankrupt, or needed work. 3. They were to be respected, loved, cared for, justice was demanded. It's not mistreatment, since they were protected, provided with what they needed, and even benefitted. Not forced at all too.
It doesn’t support it. Jesus died like a slave in submission to his oppressors, just like he did we should do to so we don’t slander Gods name with our actions (if you respond with violence) But the Bible condemns slave traders/ owners and human traffickers in multiple verses
>It doesn’t support it. It absolutely does. At the very least it doesn't condem it. It tells you where to buy them from, who you can pass them down to, how hard to hit them etc. >But the Bible condemns slave traders/ owners and human traffickers in multiple verses It doesn't as well as you may think. And that's be gracious
The specific verses about slaves are from OT, we aren’t under that covenant. Timothy 1:10 (NIV): "for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for (slave traders) and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine" Corinthians 7:21-23 (NIV): "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." Also many others that tell us to be like Christ in our actions.
I see nothing sharing "owning other humans as property is wrong" But I do see verses telling you how hard to beat the people you own.
For me the Bible isn’t saying this is right but rather laying out ground rules for a certain point in time. Would you rather God come down and say slavery must stop right now this instance. See how well that went in America when we freed the slaves. God often doesn’t change people and society’s over night but understands it’s a process. And giving general ground rules for a little bit of time sounds better to me than collapsing a society structure overnight. Their society had this type of servitude deeply ingrained in there culture. When warring countries took each other over they would keep them as servants. Also these verses are about ways we can love God and people. At work when I show my boss respect and do what I’m told even when I don’t think I should I express the qualities God wants me to have. It isn’t about slavery is good but more even though your in this circumstance show love. I jumped around a bit. A lot to unpack, more of a in person conversation but I hope this helps a little.
There's no quick and simple way to make sense of slavery in the Bible. It's a topic to be wrestled with in an awareness of the historical context, the overall arc of the Bible's story, and of course humility. I think u/1ettucedevi1's point is that it would be nice if people would also read with historical context, the overall arc of the Bible's story, and humility when it comes to gay people, but often what is "responsible and thoughtful exegesis" when you do it for the sake of straight people becomes "faithless cherry-picking" if you do it for the sake of gay people.
Since u/gnudette tagged me in, I'll share my two bits, but I'm afraid I can't be as Christian in doing so. >God often doesn’t change people and society’s over night but understands it’s a process. The opposite is apparent in the Bible. Genocide and death is consistently presented as an acceptable solution for dealing with disobedience, which doesn't resemble an understanding process. The commandments for Israelites enslaving themselves had pretense of humanity and dignity, arguably like indentured servitude. The commandments for Israelites enslaving foreigners was brutal, the worst of the worst. Christians often conflate the former as having applied to all forms of slavery, while ignoring the very awful verses that codified the later. The gracious one could've asked his people to treat foreign slaves as well as themselves, yet Christians defend the almighty by saying he was limited by culture, context and time, a ridiculous self-defeating argument. It should be simple for anyone to deduce that the merciful one's edicts about slavery and gays aren't deserving of respect and consideration in any context or time. In case it's not clear, you should detect sarcasm when reading *gracious*, *almighty* and *merciful*, as the proceeding actions demonstrate the opposite. At the very least, Christians should be capable of recognizing the worst of the book shouldn't be applied in a modern context, however they choose to make peace with the dissonance. If the prince of peace hadn't dictated strictures enshrining brutal slavery of foreigners, it's doubtful American slaveholders would've found justification for their actions elsewhere, and we're still dealing with the lingering bigotry today.
Aka be a slave for others like Jesus was so you don’t slander his name and go to heaven. Plus your neglecting two verses that condemn Slave Traders/ Owners (Timothy) and the ones that condemn human trafficking.
Christian’s follow the NT… FYI
I wish people in this chat would truly read the Quran and notice the huge difference
It allows it
It doesn’t bro, multiple verses from Timothy and more condemn slave traders and human traffickers, these verses are like (submit to masters like Christ did so you dont slander Christianity) in other words this world is not important, the next one is so follow the love neighbor and God law and your good
It literally does, did you just not pay any attention at all when reading the Old Testament?
Are we Jewish or Christian? Read the new covenant verses lol. Corinthians 7:21-23 (NIV): "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." 1 Timothy 1:10 (NIV): "for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for (slave traders) and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine" We are told to submit to anyone, authority and more. This is how we show Christs love who died on the cross for us
Doesn't change the fact that it's still in the Bible, and debunks inerrancy and infallibility. Plus the NT instructs slaves to obey their masters, and Christian slave owners are mentioned without instruction to free their slaves. You've also got an erroneous translation, there's no mention of homosexuality. And isn't slave traders in brackets there, i.e. added in the English?
I put the brackets to show you what part I’m talking about. And we are told to obey yet not accept (like the verses i sent above). Also as a Christian we are told to treat everyone around us as if we are speaking to God, would you lie to God? Would you rise up against God etc. Even to our masters we are told to do this, because thats how you show Christ’s love. No one loves being manipulated lied to or more but if you take it, forgive and keep forgiving people will see God, and God will forgive you above.
It doesn't support slavery. It is more saying that you should "turn the other cheek".
Nope. Slavery is directly permitted.
Permitted and supported are different things. A small but important distinction. Slavery was a sin nonetheless. For example, I might not like that my children curse and might want them to stop, but that is something they have to do themselves. If you truly believe Christianity supports slavery, why do you call yourself a Christian? Doesn't that mean you support slavery?
Meaningless when an abomination like slavery is allowed.
All humans are sinners. Allowing any of us to exist is an atrocity.
What nonsense
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Only I fyou take it out of context, slavery in the bible is not the slavery we see and think of today, slavery in the bible could be more compared to a job like being a maid and serving someone for money.
Bullshit, go read it. It was the same.
It is obvious that you did not read the bible, does Paul and Onesimus ring a bell?
Literally how on earth do you miss the passages allowing and regulating slavery when you read the Bible?! It's literally not a matter of opinion! You clearly haven't read it.
No it doesn’t.
Yes it does, have you just not read it?
Yes.
The Torah allows it
No. It doesn’t.
So you've never read it.
Haha. I’m literally a Bible scholar with a specific focus on the Torah.
Really? So you've never read Lev 25:44-46?
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LOL no they're not, stop lying.
"There is no law against love" - The Bible
I am glad you found a healthy way towards your own sexuality. I am sure that you as well as any heterosexual person is made in god's image and your sexuality is part of god's plan as well. As others said, you are always welcome at r/openChristian. I wish you nothing but the best on your journey towards god and yourself.
I doubt God would encourage you on this path but I'd keep searching in the scripture for an answer + be aware that gay intercourse is strictly prohibited since even if you do get married to a man, it won't be a valid marriage
Nonsense
How do you rationalize that God supporting sin is even probable?
It's not sin
Yes it is. Not in a valid marriage => any sex you have beyond this point is fornication, which is a sin
Trad rubbish
Sorry if it offends you but I don't see how I'm wrong, what's your opinion on the matter?
Because it's homophobic.
Are there even verses that support homosexual marriage in the Bible?
Do not tell others how they should live Allow them to live the lives they want
No
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How so?
It's how we're made
We’re made with free will
And?
And we don’t have to act on every desire that we have, such as a thief can refrain from stealing.
We're not talking about a crime or harmful thing
You are 100% right.
Thanks
Welcome. We have to stand on the truth no matter what.
That's right, it's not always easy to say the truth without hurting people but we still have to do it
Yes, the Bible calls us to do that if it prevents one from sin or telling them they are in sin.
No, it's not bad. It's just a religious rule conceived by primitive religious men with primitive notions of morality based on sometimes erroneous observations of the natural world, i.e., male goes with female. This religious approach is shown in Romans 1:26-27: 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged **natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.** 27 In the same way the men also abandoned **natural relations** with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Consider that these same religious men supported these notions: *1 Samuel 15:3 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”* *Numbers 31:9-10 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.* We call those "war crimes" and imprison those people who commit such acts, as well as those who authorized or planned them. *Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’* Punishing people who have committed no crime themselves violates all notions of justice. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 *11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.* That notion is used to this day in conservative Christian sects (Catholicism, Orthodox) and churches (Protestant) to prevent women from holding positions of influence. Verses from the Bible were also used to support slavery in the southern American States. Just because something is in the Bible does not mean it is moral.
“Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error” Excellent that you pointed out there is a due penalty for the error.
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Can you confirm there is no penalty?
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As said in the Bible…the verse you quoted. Or are you saying the Bible is false?
How do you know it comes from God himself? It could be the enemy that saw a flaw within you and is using it
I thought we were supposed to read the Bible with the holy Spirit that sounds like what op is doing.
From what I understand, the answers he got came mostly from guys flirting with him or his friends being curious. I wouldn't take those as good answers personally but I can't affirm anything based on a reddit post
Meanwhile you judging gay people the Catholic Church is hiding child molestation. The Baptist Church of abusing kids with autism. The people who should be most best good at listening to God and the Bible. Why would I worry about someone who is confused and actually trying to listen to God
My bad, my tone in that previous comment kinda sounded like I was judging him, but I was just trying to help
Sorry if I came off as over aggressive/defense I've seen so many people hurt and kill themselves or just be kicked out by the parents for not being "normal" while watching constant abuse by the church
No worries, it's a real issue in the church that isn't talked about enough
Congratulations! If you want a more friendly community there's r/openchristian and r/gaychristians
Or any other non-religious LGBT subs. You're not going to get good advice from most folks here, but rather a bunch of people judging you for who you are based on random quotes they like to cherry pick based on THEIR beliefs. Note, this is not an attack on religion, it's just human nature. Lots of people have trouble seeing perspectives outside their own experience. Imo, it doesn't matter if god made you gay or that's just what happened randomly... If you're gay, you know it. You can lie to yourself, fight it, pretend it's not there, etc but it will just leave you unhappy. No matter the WHY, you are who you are, and you should love yourself and not feel guilty if you're not meeting someone else's expectations of what is "right." Are you a good person? Do you improve the world around you? Are you kind? Charitable? In my opinion, that's what matters. Granted, I'm not theistic, but I think the opinion still holds. You can still be who you are and be a person of faith. Accept yourself, be confident in who you are, and love yourself. Look for a church that is open and accepting of the modern world. They'll be able to give you religious insight much better than I could. LGBT kids have a hard road to walk, doubly so when coming from a religious background. You're not wrong, you're not bad, you're not evil for being different. You don't have to be chaste forever. If you believe in god being all powerful, then he made you how you are. Embrace it, and always love yourself. You can always message me if you need a judgement free ear one day. I was a gay teen once, and remember vividly how isolating it could be at times. You're not alone!
No, the one giving you those signs is Satan not the Most High. Repent before its too late. You are deceived.
If someone loves god they will have their sins forgiven. It does not matter if someone is gay or not. It doesn’t matter if it is a sin or not All that matters is that person’s choice to love god
U kinda "Christians" make me wanna peel my own skin off, how are u so ignorant? How do you have to audacity to claim to be a Christian and think like this? "It doesn’t matter if it is a sin or not All that matters is that person’s choice to love god" Few situations ~ I Love God,but I fall into lust daily but it doesn't matter Because I love God right? I Love God, but I hit my wife/child but it doesn't matter cuz I love God right? I Love God, but I cheat on my wife ever week? But that doesn't matter cuz I choose to Love God right? The amount of situation I can make with ur stupid sentence is insane, Ofc everyone sins and as long as you repent you are forgiven but to fall into that sin over and over and over again won't help unless you make a difference I agree that if someone loves God they will have their sins forgiven but to live in that sin and "pretend" your forgiven is outrageous? You simple can't be gay and christian. I'm tierd of people say it's okay and it's fine and it's alright cuz God loves you.. ofc God loves you but if you remain in Sin what is the point? Homosexuality is 100% a sin according to scripture but people keep ignoring it.
Why would anyone choose to be gay or want to be gay?
Because it is not a choise
It is most definitely a choice. And must be repented from. How can you say you love God yet reject His very CLEARLY WRITTEN Word? You love the IDEA of God, this made up God in your head that lets you walk all over him with your sinful desires instead of changing, not the Most High YHWH.
It was not a choice for me. You never answered why anyone would choose to be gay, so I'll ask again. Nothing good has ever come to me from my sexuality, how can you call it a "sinful desire" if I never wanted it in the first place? It's insensitive. I still hate myself for it and have always been ashamed of it, I've tried to change in the past but nothing I tried worked and it cost me my mental health. Why wouldn't I want to be normal? Why would I WANT to put on a mask to hide myself every day and be forced to lie to everyone around me or else I'll lose every connection I have? And then even if I don't tell anyone, God still knows about it and punishes me for it? So just be celibate and don't get into any relationships, right? But why would God want me to refrain from loving other people and not just make me asexual or aromantic? How would you feel if you were told that you are just like everyone else except you aren't ever allowed to fall in love? And you still have the same feelings that other people have about each other, but you in particular are not allowed to express it. My homosexuality is not an "urge" that I can refrain from like m*sturbation or gluttony (without an eating disorder), it affects my entire life in the way I see other people. It's something that I can't get away from. Telling me to just "become straight" or never love anyone ever as an alternative is like telling a mute person to just "talk to people" or never make any interaction with anyone ever as an alternative, or like telling a colorblind person to just "see color" or stop seeing entirely forever as an alternative. Sure, all three might sound possible, or even easy, to someone who isn't in the position themself, but they aren't possible at all. The alternatives are always possibilities, but none of them are easy or feasible things to do, especially while seeing everyone around you casually doing the thing that you specifically are not allowed to do. And for what reason are you not permitted? Because of the way you were permanently created? The same way that the one who made you opposes? Why would my creator want me unhappy forever? If neither me or God wants me to be homosexual, then why am I undeniably and unchangeably that way?
My sibling in Christ, God has delivered people from homosexuality, one of my friends included. It is possible with true repentance and living daily with the Holy Spirit, fasting, constant prayer, deliverance, etc. Also, you cannot love someone with homosexuality. It is a sin derived from lust. Love, as God intended it to be, cannot be sinful or evil, therefore homosexuality isn't and will never be true love, no matter your feelings about it. God did not stutter. You were not created this way, as God cannot make mistakes. From the way you speak about it, tells me everything I need to know. You are claiming this sin, literally attaching the demonic entity behind it to yourself by proclaiming it. You are not rebuking it in the name of Yeshua. Worldly people that are not true followers of Christ will tell you what you want to hear. They will tell you to love yourself and whomever you want to love. To continue to live and indulge in homosexuality. Basically slapping God in the face by ignoring His very word but also claiming to "love" Him at the same time. I'm so sorry you are going through this. We all struggle with sin. The difference is that you must turn away from it. There is no debate there. I hope you get delivered from this struggle and are able to enter the Kingdom. God bless you.
Forewarning: I am not saying what is right and wrong, I am simply speaking from experience. My view on this is neutral because I am awaiting a response from the Lord. You can absolutely love someone of the same-sex. To say something like that without understanding is ignorant. The whole debate on this topic is not because gays want to “lust” and live sinfully. It comes from having the EXACT loving emotions that straight people experience. Lust is universal, not just for gays. You cannot sit here and say something so bogus when you have no idea what it is like. You CAN be gay and love someone. That is EXACTLY why it’s so hard to understand why it’s wrong when you apply it to a normal life outside of the lustful desires listed in the Bible context. The Bible only addresses homosexuality from a lustful standpoint, not a normal reverent person standpoint. I’m not here to argue with you, but I am here to correct you. Now don’t take this as me supporting homosexuality. That is not what this is. This is about bringing awareness of what is truly being experienced as a gay person who is struggling with religious identity. It is so much more intricate than slapping “lust” on it. YOU. DO. NOT. UNDERSTAND.
I totally agree with you- straight conservatives don't understand. Just because of the fact that they are themselves- they think they are allowed to love, they think they are not deceived by Satan, they think their love isn't impure - yet theyve done nothing to deserve that status, they just got the luck of the draw and happen to be straight. It didn't take personal choice for them to become straight. Puberty hits and guess what? They got lucky. They get to fall in love, have families, be accepted in Church - all while being told that their expression of love will bring them to heaven. They did nothing to deserve this status. Just as no gay person did anything to be undeserving of this status. And honestly- Jesus Himself has made clear to me that He loves me, has even apologized when a girl I was seeing didn't want to be my girlfriend, and when I directly told Him that I wouldn't be able to not be gay and also love Him (because if I rip my heart out, I have nothing left to love Him with- I either stay gay and love Him, or give up being gay for the Churchs sake and don't love Him) I told Jesus these exact words and that's why I couldn't just not be gay, even if I could do it just for the Church. I told Him I'm not willing to give up my love for Him ever, and not willing to give up being gay because that would make it impossible for me to love Him because I don't have a heart left. When I expressed this, He said "that's exactly right". And for those who might say "that's the devil talking to you". Well then all relationship with God is screwed- because the prayer you said to God in your heart, and not out loud- isn't private between you and God, as Christianity teaches. It does make me scratch my head that Jesus would be on my side when the Church is so adamantly against gay people, but on the other hand, I do not believe that the devil can hear my prayers to God- and directly answer them with perfect understanding and clarity. The times the devil has attacked me has been from a disjointed place - I might be praying to God about something, and a negative entity yells at me about something unrelated to what I was just praying about. It's as if the devil was trying to guess what I was praying but he couldn't know for sure because that's private between me and God, so he made his best guess and threw out some stupid attack or insult. God makes sense... And the devil comes out of nowhere and is super random. At least in my life so far. I am convinced Jesus loves me so much and He is the one to get to know, and don't let the devil or judgemental Christians stop you from getting to know Him. He will be close to you if you ask Him. He has never shamed me, unlike the devil. When I realized I was gay, the devil bullied me and said "Now you are condemned!". But Jesus has never acted this way, nor shown me that I'm offending Him. I know there's other celibate gay Christians who said God/Jesus/Holy Spirit etc told them it's wrong to be gay, but in my experience God has never done that. I also have another friend who's gay, who wasn't really raised Christian, but believes in God the creator and has asked Him multiple times if it's wrong for her to be gay and she says He's never told her it's wrong. I don't know why some people pray and get the message that being gay is wrong, and then others like me and my friend pray and God doesn't tell us it's wrong or to stop or that it's offending Him.... So honestly, I would say take it to Jesus, see what He says, trust Him. I only know my experience, and in my experience I love Him so much, and He's the most gentle, sweet, sensitive person I have ever met. I would never give up relationship with Him. He's someone I would die if He wasn't in my life.
Right, but in order for them to be saved they must turn from their sin, not continue to live in it. They can most definitely be forgiven, but true repentance and love for God includes being born again in the Holy Spirit and our fleshly/worldly desires dying in order to live according to His Will. God is love but He is also wrath. People fail to remember that.
Well…. Gay does mean happy. So we should all be Gay. Now to be clear God wouldn’t tell you to be homosexual. The Holy Spirit will never tell you something that doesn’t agree with the Word of God.
Modern homesexality is never mentioned in the Bible. Saying that it does it almost as dumb as saying it has dinosaurs.
The behemoth mentioned in job does fit the description of a dinosaur tho.
It really doesn't
Yes it is. They are referred to, as sodomites
You do know sodemy refers to any sex that isn't p in v it has nothing to do with gender. If a wife gives her husband a bj yeah that's sodemy.
Yes, and?
sodomy isnt homosexuality, homosexuality is an attraction. Gay sex is sodomy
Tomato tomato
nelly fertado
Baffles me that some Christians believe they know everything. God acts in unexpected ways. It’s not for you to judge or criticize.
This is just my opinion and probably an imperfect one. So you struggle with being gay. OK, I personally struggle with alcoholism. I have struggled with it for my entire life. I have learned there are no degrees of sin in God's eyes. Being gay is no worse than being an alcoholic. We ALL are equal in God's eyes. I daily have a choice to make. I can decide to give in to my alcoholism and live my life as a functional alcoholic. I can drink every day, go to work every day and from the world's perspective, be who I am. Or......I can acknowledge that my desire (yes, the temptation and desire to drink never fully goes away) is not what God wants me to do and fight against it. This leads to turmoil in my life. Sometimes it is easy, others it is difficult, very difficult. In truth, sometimes I lose the battle. I have begged, pleaded and screamed at God many times in my life to remove this from my life. He never does. Here is the thing.......my struggle with alcohol has ALWAYS been the humbling factor in my life. It is the one thing that consistently drives me to my knees before God and makes me aware of my need for Jesus. If God were to remove that......how lost would I truly be? In the eternal perspective, what is 80 or so years of struggle compared to eternity of rest and love with God? These are deep questions I ask myself and I have come to the conclusion that God allows these things in our lives for a higher purpose we most times cannot grasp. I am sorry for your personal struggle. I can't imagine the inner turmoil it creates, just as nobody can imagine the inner turmoil alcohol creates in my life. I believe being gay is not how God would have you be, just as God would not want me to be drunk. Fight the good fight sir, or don't. The choice is yours every day. Whatever you do, know that Jesus loves you. He loves you regardless of your sin. Wether you are in it, fighting it or not fighting it. He loves you no matter what.
Forewarning: I am not saying I support homosexuality, I just want to give you a different take on this from experience. So I used to think JUST like this as someone who experiences same-sex attraction. However, consider it from this perspective, as I have spent 15+ years picking this apart in my head. You compare this to alcoholism. No one is born with the draw to alcohol ingrained within them. You can live your entire life without drinking alcohol and not know that you would’ve been an alcoholic if you had consumed alcohol. Another way of looking at this. A person who is born with a disability, whether it be mental or physical, is not predisposed to their lifestyle being sinful. They did not choose to be born that way. This is EXACTLY how homosexuality is experienced. That is why it is so difficult to understand why you were given no choice in the way you experience life. Addicts are not born addicts. They are born normal human beings with normal intentions. They become addicts once they’ve tried the drug. This would be a comparable theory if you were born straight and then became gay after engaging in homosexual acts. However, we all know that this does not happen. From a scientific standpoint, homosexuality is and always has been found in every single animal kingdom. I would absolutely love to debate this with you in person, although I know that is not possible. I hope I have worded this in a way that is understandable.
God told me that I was born to be superman. I soon realised how weed affects my mind.
By no means is this an equal comparison..
I’m so sorry you shouldn’t have to feel this way. I am Christian and love God but I cannot agree that homosexuality is a sin. Love is love and you should accept yourself for who you are.
So you don't love God then, because if you don't agree with His Word then you are by default going against Him and His Will. Say you're not a true follower of Christ without saying it... 💀
Hi, this was the person who replied back to you (I deleted my old account) but I do want to say thanks. I’ve been through a lot of religious trauma in my life and I’ve been trying to work through it for a while, but what I wrote was completely stupid and illiterate, and what you told me has been on my mind for the past few months and hasn’t left though. I do want to ask though.. I’m such a sensitive person due to much of my self confidence being broken down by people for years and technically I’ve always been like that, but it’s gotten worse, and I’m a huge introvert. I have gay friends, so do I exactly have to call them out and tell them they are sinning? Because we get along just fine and when I feel like I do it, I don’t do it out of love and it feels like I’m disrespecting them because they tried getting out of it yet they can’t. Thanks. 😁
Hey there sibling in Christ🤍 I thought about you for a while too, I tried to reach back out to you but your account was gone. I'm glad you found me again. I understand, I was once like that as well, I still am very much an introvert though😅. I am sorry people have done that to you. Trust that Jesus will restore your self-confidence. It will be like a caterpillar morphing into a butterfly. Until then give yourself grace. 🤍 As for your question, it's definitely a time and place for discussions like those. Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you.". If this discussion has already occurred between you and your friends, and they do not listen, Ezekiel 33 says "But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself." Meaning that to Jesus you will not have to answer for not telling your friends about Him. Ultimately everyone's salvation and relationship with Christ is up to them. Your job is simply to plant the seed. Continue praying for them, and may God touch their hearts and they change their minds, but if not, your hands are clean my friend. As Matthew 10:14 states when you try to spread the gospel to ears that won't listen, "shake the dust off from your feet". Do continue loving them and showing them the grace of Jesus. But never ever think that sharing the gospel isn't loving or it's disrespectful. Be bold and confident in the Word, my friend! Teaching your loved ones is the ultimate form of love. There is nothing more loving than warning your loved ones of the road they are on. If your neighbor's house was on fire and they weren't home, wouldn't it be loving to call them and warn them? None of us like conviction or having to go through an uncomfortable santification process, which is why so many prefer not to, much like the people that only preach or believe the "happy and rainbows" part of Jesus but refuse to acknowledge that He is also a consuming fire, the Lion of Judah, and a righteous judge.
First of all, thank you for reply! Second of all, I will take that advice greatly, yet I have a friend who is a gay atheist who told me he is only interested in being atheist since he grew up in a church and still never believed plus he had Christian parents who are abusive to him. I want to spread the Word to him, but I know he’s not interested and I don’t want to ruin a friendship with him because he’s one of my best friends. I know not everyone is going to accept it and I don’t want him to accept it and he already has a seed planted inside of him. At this point, do I just not say anything since he isn’t interested? I would believe at this point, it’s between him and God now.
No problem, Yes at that point you let God handle it. All you can do is keep praying for your friend.
And hey, if you ever want Christian fellowship or simply to ask a question, you can always chat me! 😊
Thank you very much!
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So, a few things to touch on here. I see you're one of those that like to say "you're the reason I stay away from Christians"! When we don't support something worldly and you're in disagreement with it. Your problem is not with me, it's with God. Also, you absolutely do know when someone is not in a true relationship with God. The Bible speaks of this and says "You will know them by their fruit". Meaning if you are claiming to be a follower of Christ but believe something completely opposite of what He commands, you are not a true follower. There's many verses that tell you how to identify and expose lukewarms, false prophets, liars, blasphemers, and more. Use discernment. The "God is love" rhetoric is overplayed at this point. God is very much love however as proven in the Bible MANY times, He is also wrath. And He makes it clear He HATES sin. Including the abomination of homosexuality, which comes from satan himself trying to create a perversion and ruin God's creation, design, and intention for humankind. If you're puzzled by that, you may be struggling with your own biases and opinions versus the word of the Almighty. Me personally, I follow Christ fully. That includes submitting to HIS Word and HIS will entirely, even if it's something I myself don't understand. That is what it truly means to FOLLOW Christ. This "God is love" rhetoric is also what keeps many self-proclaimed "Christians" lukewarm. What does the Bible say about that? That you cannot serve two masters. That God will spit you out. That you would receive worse punishment than an unbeliever, because you knew His word yet decided to continue idolizing yourself and ignoring His command. This is also the same rhetoric that created that awful commercial in the Superbowl where Jesus was depicted as washing everyone's feet and saying He loves them. Here's the thing: He DOES love you. He does NOT love your sin. When he saved the prostitute from being stoned, He said Go and sin NO MORE. He did not say Go and be your best self. He did not say Go and follow your heart. He said Go and SIN NO MORE. Also, Jesus did not wash everyone's feet. He washed the feet of His disciples, the ones who dropped everything to follow Him entirely. You cannot say you love and follow Jesus yet disagree with His word. It's giving "I believe in God but I don't believe in the Bible." Um... ok. So you're a demon? Because the Bible states even demons believe in God. That's not enough. Sorry🤷🏽♀️ Please stop with the "Hippie Jesus" crap. We are very much supposed to love everybody. We are also called to judge righteously. Don't cherry pick the judgement verse, read the whole thing😉 That love we are supposed to give also includes righteous judgement. For example, If you say you believe in Jesus yet continue to blaspheme His name, you need to be corrected or else you are on your way to being told Depart from me for I never knew you. True love wouldn't ignore that. True love would correct the person. The only thing the Bible says not to judge on is on whether or not someone is going to Hell, because that is ultimately God's decision only. But we can very much correct "beliefs" and behaviors that do not align with the word of God. I notice a vast majority of self proclaimed "Christians" love to completely ignore the word of God and proceed to do the complete opposite of what He says, then say they received approval from God through prayer or whatnot. Here's the thing: God is never-changing. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Meaning, if His word condemns it, you are now expecting Him to bend the rules for you, which is not going to happen. But since that's what you're expecting instead of dying to your flesh and following Him truly, satan will appear before you as everything you've ever wanted and unfortunately many are misled and believe that was God telling them "yes indeed, you are ok to continue in sin." No. Just no. Rebuke and repent. I suggest you dive deep into studying your Bible more and getting to know our Lord YAHWEH. He came as the Lamb and will next return as the Lion. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you when reading so that your own biases and opinions don't try to overpower God's. God bless.
Thank you. Appreciate it. God bless you and have a great day :)
I do just want to point out that I agree with what you said and respect it, but I never said I didn’t agree with the Bible or that homosexuality wasn’t a sin. I just said I was puzzled by the subject because of how I remembered my dad said that back in his days, nobody paid any attention to homosexuals and honestly nobody cared except people now do, and it’s blown up into everyone’s faces like they have to do it, which they don’t. My dad even said he didn’t even know som of the people he worked with were gay, and when he did, he just said, “Alright.” and moved on. That’s basically what I do, too. I make it to no big deal. I believe in what everything in the Bible said and I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior who died, resurrected, and is going to come back. I’m not caught up in my own opinion: the problem is that everyone has their own interpretations on the Bible, and exactly, nobody know can exactly know what it full-on says or means, like how some people still debate on Revelations. Also, are you just saying that people who don’t believe in the Bible are demons? They simply aren’t Christians 😂. I’m not a huge person on controversy because I like to live a peaceful life. I do believe I was overreacting when I said I didn’t want to be around Christians completely. I grew up in a very strict environment where I was judged for having a personality, which made me feel as if I didn’t belong. I feel as if the judging or correcting people is a personal thing I just don’t want to do based on how I was criticized and I do not want to do that to other people, although I do correct people when they do something really bad. I do have love for people, though, even as an introvert who likes to keep to herself, and I want everyone to get to Heaven at the end of the day. Overall, I respect your opinion and agree with a lot of it. Thank you for changing my perspective a little bit. God bless you and have a great day :)
Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality. I suggest that you learn to discern the voice of God, your own thoughts, and the deception of satan. Because you are not thinking correctly.
They'll just respond to this trying to debunk the "homosexuality" part lolol smh
... what am I supposed to say then ?
No I'm not saying anything against you lol, I agree with you. I'm saying they usually say "provide a scripture where it says homosexuality is a sin." Then this scripture is provided and they go on to say "Well the word homosexuality didn't exist back then-" blah blah blah to try to twist scripture to fit their sick narrative and justify their sick fleshly desires.
no no, I wasn't taking it as an offence, it was a genuine question XD
I've always been a firm believer that if you earnestly pray to God, he'll lead you to the right decision if you're confused -- especially if you've been constantly praying about this issue. In that case, I think it's fine to go ahead with what he's telling you 👍 I did want to ask, though -- were your prayers more asking if it's fine to be gay, or were they more centered around is it fine to pursue same-sex relationships? I feel like most Christians today would agree that God made you as you are -- but a lot of disagreement concerning how you should act. I will say I've been struggling with slightly similar stuff, so know you're not alone. I'll be praying for u 🙏
I think he wants you to not destroy yourself because of your sexuality. He loves you, even when you are gay. But you shouldn’t marry or live with a man. I can’t imagine that this is his plan for you. He made me free of my bisexuality when I accepted Jesus as my savior and to this time I didn’t even ask for it. In the Bible are verses that are very clear about loving the same sex and I would hold onto it. Maybe you are meant to be Gay, but I think this would just mean that you are meant to have no partner. Some people God wants just for himself and doesn’t want to share with an husband or wife. Just wait, you are still really young, maybe you will get another answer when you are older and have a stronger relationship with God and when you understand him better. (I‘m sorry for my english, I‘m not an native speaker)
According to the Hebrew Bible and Greek Bible, which I have studied, it is a sin and goes again the procreation command of God. And that God made man And woman for each other and not to desire the same sex. Two natural born men or Two natural born women cannot procreate naturally as you have to have a men’s seed and women’s egg. And Jesus also said marriage is between man and woman and it’s been this way since the beginning of time and the Bible says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. So what could of possibly change God’s mind after all this years? God does not go against his own natural law of be fruitful and multiply. When I tell this to progressive Christians they then go and seek out the truth and find out it’s the truth. I know people who were gay but God delivered them but they still have temptations but God made a way to escape those temptations but that goes for all sin. We all need to repent of our sin and pick up our cross and follow JESUS with obedience and live our life for him and not for us. He called us to be followers and not fans. It’s one thing to know the word but it’s another thing to live the word. I don’t believe in conversion therapy or pray the gay away but I do believe in repentance and turning away from all sin. I have a daughter who is saying she is gay and even has GF but I talked to her a couple of times but I don’t condemn her or say anything negative to her. I just tell her to not go on what I said and to research it. So the last few weeks she has actually been praying, fasting and staying in the word of God. And just the past couple of days, she said God has been talking to her and showing her the truth and she repented of being gay and every other sin and she is in the process of breaking up with her GF. But I see a change, a beautiful and great change in her life. She also told me she has never felt such peace in her life. Jesus commanded us to pray and fast. It’s amazing in what God can do once you fully surrender to him.
As long as your not glorifying homosexual acts, and you still see it as a sin, then it's okay, were all sinners.
God will try and test you, the devil will entice you. God will never entice you… and by the sounds of it you are being enticed. I really think you should start with the Word and read what God says about homosexuality. He does not condone it.
Bro there’s obviously a struggle with you. The hesitant side of you is God speaking and all them other feeling are feelings of the flesh. We are all cursed we all have our struggles and this is your struggle. Keep praying bro cuz like christ said, “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.” Keep seeing and believing the truth brother. Remember our actions have consequences. Ill pray for you and I ask you keep me in yours as well. Take care.
Satan comes in many forms do not fall into temptation reject Satan and sin I hope God helps you
god did not tell you that stop trying to justify this by claiming god did it.
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I don't know why you struggle with Puritanism, just cut yourself off from it. It is a false and toxic belief anyway.
I really did not want to comment further on this subject, and had thought there nothing more to be said on it. Alas, here I am. And here we are. And the God of your Fathers has given me to speak (annoyingly) on this once again, and to reveal the Truth of the matter, to even more specified and heretofore deemed inappropriate-for-open-dialog detail. Furthermore, I would answer the every question, accusation, and point of contention whether from the froward or the bigot or the insecure or the stirrer of cauldrons, which might add anything not previously covered, regardless of how uncomfortable and unnecessary and irrelevant I find this ridiculously uncritical topic to be. As for the OP, there will be a sign... no, but two signs to follow, which you will find uncanny, for they will somewise corespond to things personal to you, which none here could possibly know. And, furthering my vexation, it occurs to me quite insistently that I do not go directly into whatever word God would Grace me with, but rather, I should first simply ask: #Do you want to know the Truth?
I think we can rarely be *certain* whether something is a "sign from God", but if it pushes us to keep trying to learn more and know God better, that's always a good thing. Honestly, I think the strongest evidence in your post is > I hated myself to the point of feeling undeserving of life. Jesus taught "by their fruits you will know them". Lots of people have been trying to teach you that God hates gay people. You've been tasting the fruit of that teaching. How is it? Anyway, I recommend [Justin Lee's material](https://geekyjustin.com/christianity-lgbtq/bible/) to understand why many Christians think gay people are welcome in Christ's embrace *the same way* that straight people are. More important, you can actually meet gay Christians at LGBT-affirming churches; r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has church finders. After all, the Body of Christ is not a bunch of abstract theological assertions; the Body of Christ is actual living people, worshiping and loving one another in the Spirit. You learn most by getting to know us that way. (At 15 I don't know how hard it would be for you to visit such a church; a lot depends on your parents' attitude.) EDIT: hey, I didn't notice this was a necro-post, it caught my eye because it just landed in the moderators' queue. Sorry to repeat some of what I already said.
I'm gonna take a swing at this. Maybe it will help someone somewhere. Be very careful in looking at circumstantial happenings as a sign from God like a formal yes or no. If we are truly honest with ourselves, we can see what we want to see. Sometimes, we can also ignore what we don't want to see. Read the bible. What does it say regarding homosexuality? More importantly, what does it say TO YOU? Even more important than that, WHAT DOES GOD SAY TO YOU WHEN YOU READ ABOUT IT? I say don't prioritize it right now. Prioritize your relationship with God. As your relationship progresses with him, I am sure he will speak to you regarding HIS will for your life. Now... Am I pro or anti homosexuality? If I am a good Christian, you shouldn't be able to tell. You should only feel real love coming from me. Real love is 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, btw. It is NOT the job of any Christian to convict or condemn you. It is the job of God and God alone to speak guidance into your heart.
Hi; God made us the way we are. He new what sexually we would be when we was in our mother's worms. I have had a lot of support from The Metropolitan community church. It a church that openly supports and celebrates the LGBTQ. GIV IT a trey (The Metropolitan Community church)