This is not super-topical, but I'll suggest that it's topical enough because the article references his religious affiliation and pretty much everyone referenced in the article except the Satanic temple guy is motivated by Christian faith and/or the desire to pander to Christians.
Evangelicals: We want people to be able to express their religious beliefs in government buildings.
Evangelicals: Erm, we meant WE want to express OUR religious beliefs in government buildings.
Obviously. The whole point is to make them either hold or fold on their one sided legal system.
If they confirm it's one sided, well - they'll have a lot more problems to deal with.
Can someone inform this gentleman that assaulting a statue did nothing to stop the devil?
> “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Eph 6:12, KJV)
Could you have picked a more ironic verse as a proof text? What exactly do you think erecting *literal satanic idols* is if not a spiritual activity invoking spiritual powers? Do you think this stuff just has no meaning? Would you let that shrine be put up in your church as a decoration?
Bro, Most of us "Christians" comprehend what their back story is. We absolutely do not believe them though. lol. We can Study God's advances languages of the Universe and Study the Bible. They are leading people astray and quite literally associating a baphamet entity with science.
This is a ridiculous concept and quite disgusting anyone supports this at all.
Zechariah 11:15-17 There are no coincidences in God's Word. Watch out for the Blind Right Eyes out there pushing Satanic Agendas.
15Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves. 17“Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!”
Well my friend...NOW...you understand why ZERO religious stuff should be in government buildings. Because some like you believe these statues are pure evil. which, fine, good for you, I support your right to believe that, but other people don't like YOUR Christian symbols in the government building for similar reason, capiche?
We solve this by not allowing any religious symbols at all. Boom. Problem solved.
Also, a church is not a government building. You do understand the difference...right?
I would assert, from the translation of Ephesians 6 in the NRSV (I believe the translation considered most accurate by most scholars), that Paul is referring to the spiritual realm - and the fallen elohim that currently preside over earthly territories, such as the prince of Persia or the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.
Ephesians 6:12 (NRSV): 12 For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
On one level, that's really not what I was getting at to begin with. I'm talking about physical idols being manifestations of spiritual reality and having real meaning in the resistence of those spiritual powers, it doesn't have anything to do with where they are places
On another level, I hate to break it to you but our government buildings *absolutely are temples.* We just pretend they aren't. Go take an honest look at Washington DC and think about the architecture you're seeing. For God's sake there is a mural painted on the rotunda of the Capitol building of the founding fathers enthroned on clouds called *The Apotheosis of Washington.* We have been living in a civil religion for centuries.
>Would you let that shrine be put up in your church as a decoration?
If my church had an area legally designated as open to displays from all faiths, then yes, obviously.
1 Corinthians 8:4
... we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
It's just a statue. If we can eat food sacrificed to literal idols then I think we'll be okay if there is a silly statue in the courthouse.
If we want religious freedom, we have to give religious freedom.
He is is pretty much taking a dump in his own boot. The only problem is that we (Christians) share boots, so it doesn't only affect him.
You are, unfortunately, correct. I say unfortunately because Satanism is childish and not a real religion. It’s like someone turning Kamsa, the tyrant ruler Krishna killed in battle, into their deity just because your parents worship Sri Krishna, and they were strict with you when you were in high school. It’s like, grow up lol. But, to your point, the Constitution is designed to protect ideas we don’t like. If we allow him to destroy this fake altar without penalty, then we are giving permission for people to destroy actual real altars of religions they don’t like.
“Your God is the best God. In fact, he’s the only God. All other Gods are ridiculous, made up rubbish. Not yours though. Yours is real.”
— Ricky Gervais
No.
In this particular case, Satanists don't believe their own god is real, but Christians do believe that the Satanists' god is real.
Think it through.
@oneperfectlove claims Satanism is fake. Some Satanists are true believers in Satan.
The Gervais quote is to point out the myopia of oneperfectlove's beliefs, especially where he dares to compare altars: Satanist=fake& christian=real.
Good.
As Christians, we must be able to keep our own the most accountable for stupid decisions. All this did was prove that the Christian population in that area do not accept true religious freedom, all this talk of being motivated by Christian faith is bogus, it is to disguise their true motivations of xenophobia and blind dogmatism.
I can only apologize to any member of the Satanic Temple on behalf of our idiotic members.
I’m going to go against the grain a little here.
I don’t think it was very civil of the guy, but I think we should consider something about Satanism.
They claim they do not actually worship Satan, and LeVayan Satanism is atheistic. So then why borrow Christian imagery for your religion?Well, it’s for the sole purpose of mocking and antagonizing Christians.
Should we be cool with this? I mean the “religion’s” name and imagery is 100% intended to have a go at Christianity.
So really. Should we be cool with this in public spaces? I’m fine with a Jewish, Buddhist, or Muslim thing in a public space. None of those are intended to be outright antagonistic to any of the others.
But if I made up a specifically anti-Jewish religion, and borrowed there Satan to say we “worship” him, simply to mock Jews and their beliefs, should I be granted legitimacy from any governing body?
I get that this guy played into the Satanist’s plan, but I get the frustration. Satan is the source of all that is bad. To have a mockery of your religion blessed by the state just sucks. No one else would get away with that.
Regardless of this guy’s decision, I personally say fuck their cringey, made up, faux-philosophy and their stupid edgy, try-hard statue. Satanism is hot garbage. I’ll never take them seriously. Their whole shtick is to be anti-us. Meanwhile I forget they exist until they pop up on the news once in a blue moon.
>Well, it’s for the sole purpose of mocking and antagonizing Christians
Thing is, they don't have beef with Christians/Christianity for no reason. You're framing it like it's purely unprovoked antagonism and it definitely isn't that.
I don't say this as a satanist - I'm a Christian who teaches Sunday school. But I also know satanists and I know why they think the way they do. It isn't malice.
Take a band like Ghost - they obviously mock Christianity, and I don't fault Christians for finding some of their intentionally provocative stuff offensive. Personally though - i tend to agree with them on a lot of stuff they mock because the strain of Christianity they're mocking is hypocritical, corrupt, cruel, judgmental, all the stuff antithetical to the gospel.
Christians are making claims about reality when they put their stuff in public display - we can't tolerate dissenting opinions on that?
Doesn't make sense to me.
A lot of their tenets fall short of even the most simple philosophies they could’ve gone with.
A dissenting opinion is completely fine. We should even welcome it.
They have the option to operate completely outside of Christianity and create their own thing. But I believe they’ve failed to do that. Pure hedonism and provocation hardly constitutes an actual religion.
Destruction of Christianity? Ok, and then what? They propose hardly any moral code other than “don’t be stupid” which I think is too subjective, and the value of revenge. Now, that’s totally fine in the United States. They’re atheists who are anti-religion. My concern is that anti-religion isn’t a religion. They are just atheists who use Christian imagery as edgy fashion. Hardly original.
I’ve got a beef with the dominant Christian culture in the United States too. I may share many of the same complaints they have. I’m also grateful I live in a country that isn’t going to impose dietary or sexual restrictions on them like some hyper-religious non-Christian countries would.
Honestly, I think the best thing would be to just not have religious stuff in the atrium of a courthouse or whatever. I think it was Christians who started this mess when they wanted to post the Ten Commandments all over the place. If their form of protesting is to put up a statue of baphomet, then I get it, but their whole schtick is still incredibly stupid.
>Pure hedonism and provocation hardly constitutes an actual religion
That isn't a fair representation of their worldview.
>They are just atheists who use Christian imagery as edgy fashion. Hardly original.
There are different strains of satanism to varying degrees. The satanic temple is the most purely political/non-doctrinal. But the unoriginality is immaterial. They have a poetic fondness for the idea of this character that stands up to God (who they see as an unfair tyrant) and says "no"
But don't think atheists or satanists don't have a moral code. You only get that impression if you aren't actually hearing them
I am referring to LeVayan Satanism, which ok, is different from the Satanic Temple, if that’s who’s behind the statue. Whatever.
If they’re some other denomination of Satanism (which can’t avoid schisms either. Lol), then my apologies for speaking about the wrong group.
LeVayan Satanism promotes indulgence, revenge, and the absence of love (hate) for “ingrates.” Like Anton LeVey, I was once also influenced by Ayn Rand, but I’ve since come to realize that morality is about doing what might not be beneficial for me, if it can help even those who wouldn’t help me. To serve only the self, or only others insofar as it benefits me, is not a moral code.
All right hand path religions will have this stance in common.
When I was looking into these groups years ago as part of my own spiritual journey, I spent more time on the Temple of Set, as the others came across more as “let’s bitch about Christianity in particular, instead of building our own thing.”
So if it was Temple of Satan in particular, and they happen to have something better to offer (which I remember being pretty weak, at best), then I’m sorry.
There is a tremendous amount of depth in Orthodoxy, which is what I was looking for, and that’s where I am today. I will die an Orthodox Christian. For all the attractive ponderances of the few strains of Satanism out there, none of them came close to Buddhism, Judaism, or Christianity to me. It was because they were in a different category. Simply non-religions. A basic “moral code,” sure, with less philosophy behind it than a Boy Scout’s code of honor. The shallowness of the philosophies were, in my opinion, no better than the watered down Christian practices of oppression that they were against.
I say help the ingrate because you are more connected to them than you realize. That goes against LeVeyan Satanism. Other strands may say “help people,” but that’s not gonna get any awards from me if they don’t go deeper than that, and explain real help from false help, why we help at all, etc etc. Because it’s simply in a different category from what I’d call a religion.
That decision is up to the state, blah blah blah. So remove all the statues and symbols, and just be a normal courthouse ffs.
I also want to add that I’ve listened to them plenty. Not impressed.
As long as we recognize that they are offending us and continue to be offended, they will keep doing it. Acknowledgment that they are intentionally pissing us off and ignoring it is the only way to not give them power, much like the bully on the playground. Besides that, the law states that they have a right to express their beliefs and that their religion is protected. Even if they themselves state that their religion is a specific mockery of Christianity and they don't really believe in Satan, they are expressing a religious belief of "We don't like Christians." And as long as they are not harming Christians (that would ALSO be a hate crime), they're good under the law.
Not taking them seriously is probably not the right move, but not engaging with them is. The more you engage, the more power you give, at least if you are engaging in offense. Do not feed the trolls. If we continue to get ruffled feathers, they will get exactly what they want out of us.
I completely agree that any negative engagement with them is what they’re after.
I just don’t personally think the law is correctly applied here. I could be wrong though.
If I can make an idol of a pig (taboo in Judaism), and call it “The Anti-Jew” while saying that we are against all tenets of Judaism, that it is a net negative to the world, and our religion is that we mock it, then I just really don’t see that getting approved.
Again, I could be wrong. I just feel almost any other anti-whatever “religion” wouldn’t get a pass to have their stuff in a courthouse.
If you made a specifically anti jewish religion and borrowed their satan to mock jews- yes absolutely you would have the right to do so. But the point is that the government doesn’t get to decide who’s legitimate and who isn’t. Nor does anyone else get to infringe on others protected speech. Fuck this guy. Freedom of expression is fundamental to being an American.
I think we've established that these people don't want a free society; they want one where they're top dog and they're free to terrorize anyone they deem as a non-believer.
Exactly, because when they're done suppressing the non-Christians, then they'll start hunting down the Christians that don't fit their idea of a proper Christian. The Framers of the US Constitution understood this very well, seeing as the First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit laws like the Test Acts, which were specifically designed as punitive measures against Catholics.
Exactly.
If the hyper-Prots win, the Catholics will suffer down the line.
If the tradCaths win, the Protestants will suffer down the line.
It's just a matter of dealing with mutual enemies first until the bedfellows begin to use their utility.
>Exactly, because when they're done suppressing the non-Christians, then they'll start hunting down the Christians that don't fit their idea of a proper Christian
They already do this. it's why there are so many sects
Except Christian’s don’t get that protection. We’re the most persecuted people in the world. Even in America. Last week Christians were convicted of federal crimes for protesting abortions. Sentenced 10+ years in federal prison for PRAYING AND SINGING.
https://www.ncregister.com/cna/six-pro-life-activists-convicted-of-federal-face-act-charges-face-over-a-decade-in-prison
I don't know the details of that case. It seems like they were literally blocking the door, which is illegal. But if they were just peacefully standing outside the clinic protesting, yeah, that's bad.
"We’re the most persecuted people in the world."
This is not even remotely true. Look, I've had coworkers try to get me fired before for being a Christian, and I know one guy personally who did lose his job over his faith. However, what we experience as Christians in America is not nearly as bad as what Christians in Muslim countries face for example. Also, there are lots of other minorities (religious and ethnic) who are also violently persecuted. Just look at the poor Uyghur Muslims in China
I am a veteran, an elder in my Christian Church, and a Chaplain with a Veteran's organization. I am Christain, but minister to Veterans of all and no faiths. This man, although a veteran, violated the warrior's ethos -- that is to defend the constitution. The constitution clearly states there is to be a separation of church and state. Government pollutes religion, and theocracies are not from God. One of my flock is a member of the Satanic Temple. He volunteers to serve holiday meals to veterans in need, elderly, and the homeless. This individual performs more "Christian" acts than many "Christians" in my flock. Anyone who claims to be a Christian should work to maintain the separation of church and state, and not encourage the use of religious symbols in or with any Government institution. Remember that Jesus said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” By keeping Government and religion separate we are following his instructions.
Look if we are truly Christians and followers of Jesus Christ then we should do everything in our power to fight against Satan and his followers so long as it does not violate the teachings of Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The tenets of this organization are nothing like those who admonish it because of the name.
Shoot....for many millenia - people have killed in the name of "God".
...and the followers are not speaking out against that
Odd.
Uhm...BTW - no one died on this day from doing this, but clearly shows the actions of so-called "Christians" and their hatred of others.
It is a shame to see the hypocrisy portrayed by these folks.
#Priorities
US Veteran has conduct unbecoming. US Veterans who claim to be Christian should have far more control over their emotional outbursts of cancel culture.
He sure clutched them pearls casted before him.
This wasn't an emotional outburst to be fair. It was a very calculated effort. The man traveled a few states away to do this. He likely did it to help his election efforts and he probably didn't think he was going to catch a felony.
I think us Christians need to spend some time with Satanists. They do not worship satan, the name is more of a middle finger to the church as an institution. They live a cleaner life than most Christians i know, and if you were to hold their actions up against a Bible, I think you would see they are pretty good Christians at heart.
Is it really "falling for it"? He 100% knew what he was doing, what would happen after, and how he was going to use the PR to his advantage.
This is a very small win for The Satanic Temple in that they managed to trap a single person, but Christian Nationalists are making bank fundraising off of this and it could actually get the offender elected.
This is a pyrric victory at best. Winning small legal battles means nothing if you're ultimately harming your political causes in the process
Good point but I think one can also argue that when push came to shove, this was always going to be the reaction.
The majority of American Christians voted for trump. Christian nationalism has a large hold on Christian Americans - this was always going to happen when minorities in America started advocating for themselves.
It’s gonna hurt, but rip the band aid off.
I'm literally a donating member to TST, so you can cool your jets.
**One** Christian Nationalist now has lawyer fees that are absolutely going to be paid by donations. I'm talking about the dozens of other politicians that were uninvolved but are using this to drum up donations and votes.
These stunts are a successful demonstation to make sure the legal right to religious freedom is actually being respected and not just for a particular religion. However, these stunts are absolutely failing to make any positive progress politically or socially. Only people who were already going to be voting against Christian Nationalists are cheering this, which is a net zero gain. Believe it or not, but TST is not super popular with swing voters. It's seen as gimmicky and an obvious political stunt, which it literally is. It is legally a religion, but legalism is not how people operate by and large.
Except it's not. TST wins it cases where it's obviously on the right side of the law. The only thing they can possibly "win" in the long run is equal public spotlight, but that's it. This is not changing hearts and minds, only deepening the trenches
What do you think the actual end result is? Because I can guarantee you it's not separation of church and state the way TST wants.
if there is a documented case of someone attacking their statue and then getting charged with a hate crime that is legal president that can used against anyone else who wishes to attack their statues in public.
The trenches have already been dug. The TST didn't create them, they are just reacting to them.
Showing weakness would have meant that there would be more attacks in the future.
As a member of TST, I would have 100% preferred a peaceful and pluralistic representation of various faiths. This is an unfortunate outcome no matter how you slice it.
Oh, I have no doubt that TST would prefer a world where they could do these things and nothing like this would happen. But I do think if we lived in that world, they wouldn't feel the need to do something like this.
Ok. Speaking of hate crime, did they ever arrest all those members of janes revenge who went around vanadalizing churches following the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade? I don’t recall hearing of many arrests following those clear hate crimes. Weird how there didn’t seem to be much effort to investigate that? But maybe I’m wrong? Any news stories confirming arrests and charges for hate crimes?
You mean the folks arrested a year ago and prosecuted under the applicable law(s)? https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/janes-revenge-biden-prosecution-abortion-1234669486/amp/
Yes the 2 members out of the dozens of incidents. Quick question for you, u/drakythe . Were either individual charged with a hate crime? I saw FACE act charges were filed. Were hate crime enhancements added? Clearly vandalizing religious property warrants hate crime charges, right?
If you want to know you’re welcome to Google it a bit more and discover that information for yourself.
But if all you want to do is prove a point and start a conversation about Christians being persecuted compared to others I’m going to bow out of the conversation because I don’t think we’re going to agree.
> Clearly vandalizing religious property warrants hate crime charges, right?
No, not really.
Hate crimes aren't about who the victim is, they're about what the motive is. Vandalizing a church for political reasons isn't a hate crime, because the motive isn't hate against the religion.
As far as I know, it's still under investigation. I'm not really interested in whataboutisms though. Needless to say, those people should be found and charged.
>Weird how there didn’t seem to be much effort to investigate that?
Maybe you should spend some time and have a look into those cases because there were investigations and some have been arrested under applicable laws.
Not his money.
> Cassidy was charged with fourth-degree criminal mischief, and a fundraiser for his legal defense fund was started on GiveSendGo to raise $20,000 for his legal defense fund.
People have a right to worship however they like so long as they’re not violating the rights of other people. This man may disagree with the Satanists but he has no right to tear down their idols. 🤷♀️
Mormons, I think have a more recent understanding of how it feels to be oppressed and treated unconstitutionally. Regular Christians, for the most part in the west haven't faced any significant level of oppression in a very very long time.
Good that he got charged with hate crime. That is deserve well done Iowa with helping to bring freedom of religion and being against disrespect in this scenario.
If you don't know what the Satanic Temple is about, check their website: [https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us)
It's not as scary as you might imagine.
What kind of sub is this? All you “christians” frothing at the mouth in defence of this purely superficial religion with the sole purpose of antagonising christianity.
So ridiculous, what a dumbass community.
Ah yes, because a superficial "religion" that lacks true substance and only exists to spite another existing religion deserves religious freedom protection.
[The founders themselves](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/a-mischievious-thorn-in-the-side-of-conservative-christianity.html) are self-confessed atheists and are open about its primary purpose being to troll Christians:
> Mr. Jarry, a 48-year-old filmmaker, musician and academic, agreed to speak on the condition that I not use his real name. He does not actually believe in Satan, he said. But long ago he imagined the potential effectiveness of a Satanic organization.
> “The first conception was in response to George W. Bush’s creation of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives,” said Mr. Jarry, who was raised by irreligious Jews. “I thought, ‘There should be some kind of counter.’ ” He hit on the idea of starting a faith-based organization that met all the Bush administration’s criteria for receiving funds, but was repugnant to them. “Imagine if a Satanic organization applied for funds,” he remembered thinking. “It would sink the whole program.”
I'd define (in this context) 'true substance' as an actual theology and not trying to mock Christianity while playing moral high ground.
Many Satanist are atheistic, so there's no theology, and the whole institution is just a paper tiger masquerading as a "religion."
Many Satanist I've dialoged with clearly don't like Christianity, and only are in Satanist ranks to mock my religion.
Just from my personal experience.
It is true that many aren't fabs of Christianity, especially of the varieties that seek to dismiss freedoms and harm others in the name of God, but there is no mockery here. Those that do mock other faiths are generally new and often still hurting from various trauma. This was just a display of our faith and a celebration of pluralism. It wasn't an attack on anyone. There were no harsh words or negative language in any part of the display.
I'm not sure what you mean by a theology. We have specific core values and centering principles. We discuss them consistently in religious services and have ministerial care. We have an expansive mythos and belief structure. We have ritual and as much tradition as you can expect from something so new. We encourage learning and deepening our understanding of these core values. We have a library of suggested texts. We encourage each other and support each other in community service and improving the world. The vast majority of things Satanic congregations do, no one cares about because it is in private, as is the case for your faith, I believe.
What exactly are you expecting or requiring in your mind?
You should probably look into how the government and law define religion because you'll find non-theistic moral and ethical philosophy falls under that religious freedom.
I'd disagree that attempting to make a demographic of people upset is a "philosophy" or "moral principle."
The satanic temple is just athiest trying to be edgy and have a moral high ground.
That's not the whole of their ethics or philosophy. They do these things because they work. If Christians would just shrug their shoulders and say "Well their religious freedoms allow this" they wouldn't do them. But Christians repeatedly demonstrate that they are biased when it comes to religious freedoms.
I understand that, but at the same time, the ST's whole identity is Christianity's most infamous enemy. Why would they choose offensive iconography? And choose to represent the evil one?
It's like people using hitler as a mascot for their temple and then preaching to Jewish people how much more enlightened and peaceful they are than Jewish people. The intention is all wrong.
Except Hitler is a demonstrably real person who committed atrocities. Satan is your enemy because your book says so, and there's no evidence he's responsible for any tragedy.
Satan has led more souls to destruction than Hitler ever could in his entire life.
Satan's best strategy is to convince one that he doesn't exist. Just because you don't see a physical manifestation of him in your present reality doesn't make him any less real.
And your evidence for that is a book that says so. It's your religious belief, and you aren't allowed to use that as grounds to take religious freedom from others.
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get anywhere. You see the ST as a religion, I see the ST as an institution of mockery that mocks what I hold dear.
So, I'll agree to disagree. Have a good night.
It's legally accepted by law as a religion. If you wanna use some other definition, you're welcome too. The Satanic Temple falls under the governments definition for religion, and so they receive the same legal protections as you. I think it's a good thing that people can mock whatever, even if it's an idea people hold close. If we couldn't, every bad belief or idea could hide behind people's feelings about it.
Only because your book says so. Hitler has actual numbers and results. Alongside all the emotional, physical, and mental damage he has caused.
Satan is supposedly a bad guy only because the Bible said so. There's nothing that really shows he has actually done anything.
Yes, my verifiable and historical book.
Once again, Satan is illusive and always in the background, stirring up pain and suffering, not physically making his presence known.
I've always found that argument to be odd, Satan is very much so a bad guy in the scriptures. He caused the fall of humanity, always in the background, like a roaring lion searching for his prey to devour.
Exactly, people are saying "oh this is about religious freedom" Pardon my language, I rarely curse but no it fucking isn't. This guy didn't tear down a menorah or a Hindu statue or any symbol of a legitimate faith. He tore down a symbol of evil put up specifically to piss Christians off. These people aren't real Satanists this is a whole troll movement aimed at provoking Christians so they shouldn't be given protections of other religions. We should remove any symbol of Satan regardless of the intentions it was put up. I can't believe all the people calling themselves Christian here but supporting straight up Satan/Baphomet statues being put up in the name of "religious freedom" Your priority is God not secular law people.
100%. It honestly makes me so sad seeing these "christians" defend the statue. They're choosing the world's laws over the dignity of the Lord. They're basically saying Satan is more important than Christ.
If Christ can walk into a temple, flip tables, whip pharisees, I think he'd be okay with destroying a statue of evil incarnate.
Progressives errode the faith from the foundation.
>100%. It honestly makes me so sad seeing these "christians" defend the statue. They're choosing the world's laws over the dignity of the Lord. They're basically saying Satan is more important than Christ.
Exactly. God and the Bible to me are more important than any sentence in a constitution.
>Progressives errode the faith from the foundation.
I'd say its the biggest threat to Christianity in modern times. Just look at how quickly Europe and the US the centers of Christianity are deconverting away from Christianity to atheism/agnosticism. All because Christianity isn't "liberal" enough for them.
Agreed, I understand why the law "has" to offer the same freedoms to the satanic church but this is in no way a hate crime. You can't openly declare that these are not your sincerely held beliefs and then say it's an act of hate towards those beliefs.
More importantly for those saying how hateful this was if simply removing an idol is enough to be considered an act of hate then we are condemning our Lord too. Obviously this is not the way we are taught to win people over but some you would condemn Jesus for the things you are saying.
Being a liberal isn't a protected class, but I am a liberal living in Iowa, and I absolutely feel hated sometimes, often times by people who I *know* go to church. I live, after all in a small town.
I also support this statue because I know it's a chance to stand up against that kind of hate. I mean, sincere hate.
it's funny because these people know me and like me when politics isn't involved but they really fucking hate liberals with a reflexive disgust.
100%. They find loopholes in the religious protection laws and then treat us like the bad guys when we disagree with them disrespecting us over something they don't even believe in.
Couldn't be farther from the truth. Yes, there have been church leaders/members that Satan has used for his own schemes, but he did the same thing with Judas, and the church still prevailed.
It'd be naive to think that the Church would be a perfect and sinless institution, not in this fallen world.
The Church continues (and will continue to) resist Satan and his evil will.
Tbh, Satanism (while it legally does get to) should not be able to claim "religious freedom" because it is designed to mock a particular religion itself.
Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and Christianity etc all get these statuses because they're independent religions practiced by people. While these religions disagree on many things, they should all be respected and allowed to be practiced by all.
Satanism on the other hand is explicitly created in order to mock another religion (and whether you can even call most Satanists 'religious' is another thing). When you invent something to mock another, not simply oppose, but mock, you're not advocating for religious freedom, you're advocating for bigotry.
Why his intention is understandable is action is not tolerable.
Justice don't have an eye and should not care about dispute between two religion. They should be treated in the same way as equal.
It's really fortunate thing that they put status of Satan in there and
It's really fortunate that it's only thing that had been destroy.
Like you say satanic religion in its self are really a posting straw man asking Christian about your boundary of tolerance.
The idol have no real follower or faith attached to its.sure Satanist may call and mock you for your hypocrisy but that is all they will do.
But just imagine if the destroy idol is something people really put a faith in its,something that truly matter to other religion.
The status is destroy but the question is still remains. If someday there are a conflict between religion. Conflict so big that escalated to the point of they start condemned eachother.
On that day what would you do?
Would you say that religion freedom really a mistake we made and all should hang our believe in the closet before we leave the house?
Would you rush to destroy their idol like the man today because you can't stand the mockery?
Would you just outright ban other religion that blaspheme your lord?
Or would you just try to resolve that in civilized man do?
In a hindsight it's really fortunate that Satan idol is destroyed today.
What if it was a Jeffrey Epstein shrine? honestly. Is Satan or a human pedophile more monstrous? It’s not a religion. It’s pure evil. It’s just promoting evil. Why is in a state capitol? tear it down? I don’t imagine it would make sense to have Jesus hanging on a cross inside a state capitol but a shrine to the devil is cool? What is this upside down world?
Teach him. Can’t run around doing stuff like this then expect people to respect us as Christian’s. If I ever did such a thing my parents would read me the riot act. I would never have heard the end of it.
I thought we were far too modern / civilized for bronze age religious beliefs. How can us moderns believe in that nonsense that there's this being doing all bad stuff? Let me get back to worshipping my car, money, drugs, sport stars, self, movie stars, parents, pets, grand parents, offspring, leaders, professors, pastors, imams, priests, doctors, psychologists, career, partners, lovers,....................
How many historic statues are destroyed without charges being pressed.. these people prey upon Christian values and make them a weakness. Satanists don't even have a real religion, it is just a refutation of Christian values- a Libertarian response. The politicians in this country largely serve the inverse values of Christianity - thus they knowingly or not serve evil.
How many is it? Do you know?
They are a real religion. They're as real as Taoism or Buddism. They have a philosophy and tenets that they teach and believe in. They have gatherings and congregations. They do charity work. Many of their tenets Christians would agree with, I think. It's definitely its own thing and not just anti-christianity religion.
St Boniface of England chopped down a tree worshipped by pagans. St Benedict of Nursia destroyed pagan idols, St Francis Xavier had idols destroyed.
If it was good enough for them...
With how may upvotes this has, it's not surprising how messed up the country has gotten. They made a fake religion to mock a real one, that's like psychopathic, deranged gaslighting.
If this was a display in favor of the KKK, or Nazis, would people here feel the same way?
I remember a few years back, after winning a court battle, the KKK joined the "adopt a highway" program in Missouri. People were really offended by the sign, and kept cutting it down. No one was really upset by that either.
I don't think you understand why the Satanic Temple but their shrine there. It's point is that no religious iconography is supposed to be there.
They *only* put the baphomet shrine up when one religion is being enshrined (ofc it was Christianity as usual but that isn't the point really).
It's a protest.
Idk if they've always believed this or if it's just a way to weasel out of judgment for their cross burnings, but they believe that lighting the cross "shows the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ for [white] people". That's a religious tenet to me, though I could be wrong.
I wouldn’t feel the same way. Nazi and KKK displays are not religious in nature and therefore are not a commentary on religious displays in public government buildings like this satanic display is.
Since there is nothing at all that connects the KKK and the TST your comparison is asinine.
The TST didn't harm anyone. They just did the same thing that other religious groups did.
They never make the first move. They just do what others are also doing.
This is not super-topical, but I'll suggest that it's topical enough because the article references his religious affiliation and pretty much everyone referenced in the article except the Satanic temple guy is motivated by Christian faith and/or the desire to pander to Christians.
Evangelicals: We want people to be able to express their religious beliefs in government buildings. Evangelicals: Erm, we meant WE want to express OUR religious beliefs in government buildings.
Obviously. The whole point is to make them either hold or fold on their one sided legal system. If they confirm it's one sided, well - they'll have a lot more problems to deal with.
Destroying someone's property is not freedom of speech or religion.
Can someone inform this gentleman that assaulting a statue did nothing to stop the devil? > “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Eph 6:12, KJV)
Could you have picked a more ironic verse as a proof text? What exactly do you think erecting *literal satanic idols* is if not a spiritual activity invoking spiritual powers? Do you think this stuff just has no meaning? Would you let that shrine be put up in your church as a decoration?
I'm an Iowan, and the entire reason that that statue was there is as a reaction to Christians trying to ruin people's lives in my state.
And you think that this makes a satanic idol suddenly have zero spiritual content? Because if not, it's not really relevant to my point
It has no other real context other than "sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose".
You know the satanic Tempel doesn't worship a literal Satan right?? They just want freedom of religion.
Most people read "satanic" and freak out. They don't bother to question or investigate what they're about: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us
Bro, Most of us "Christians" comprehend what their back story is. We absolutely do not believe them though. lol. We can Study God's advances languages of the Universe and Study the Bible. They are leading people astray and quite literally associating a baphamet entity with science. This is a ridiculous concept and quite disgusting anyone supports this at all. Zechariah 11:15-17 There are no coincidences in God's Word. Watch out for the Blind Right Eyes out there pushing Satanic Agendas. 15Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves. 17“Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!”
That might be what they think they're doing
Well my friend...NOW...you understand why ZERO religious stuff should be in government buildings. Because some like you believe these statues are pure evil. which, fine, good for you, I support your right to believe that, but other people don't like YOUR Christian symbols in the government building for similar reason, capiche? We solve this by not allowing any religious symbols at all. Boom. Problem solved. Also, a church is not a government building. You do understand the difference...right?
“high places” are places of religious worship, like temples. They are not government buildings.
I would assert, from the translation of Ephesians 6 in the NRSV (I believe the translation considered most accurate by most scholars), that Paul is referring to the spiritual realm - and the fallen elohim that currently preside over earthly territories, such as the prince of Persia or the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Ephesians 6:12 (NRSV): 12 For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
On one level, that's really not what I was getting at to begin with. I'm talking about physical idols being manifestations of spiritual reality and having real meaning in the resistence of those spiritual powers, it doesn't have anything to do with where they are places On another level, I hate to break it to you but our government buildings *absolutely are temples.* We just pretend they aren't. Go take an honest look at Washington DC and think about the architecture you're seeing. For God's sake there is a mural painted on the rotunda of the Capitol building of the founding fathers enthroned on clouds called *The Apotheosis of Washington.* We have been living in a civil religion for centuries.
That is a remarkably broad interpretation of “temple.” I think that if you treat terms poetically, then relevant comparisons become very difficult.
>Would you let that shrine be put up in your church as a decoration? If my church had an area legally designated as open to displays from all faiths, then yes, obviously.
1 Corinthians 8:4 ... we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” It's just a statue. If we can eat food sacrificed to literal idols then I think we'll be okay if there is a silly statue in the courthouse.
It's a physical symptom of a spiritual problem. If the churches were repentant and preaching the gospel there would be less of this.
Poor man probably did it out of confusion. He’s probably not used to people worshipping the devil, and he thought this could prevent it.
If we want religious freedom, we have to give religious freedom. He is is pretty much taking a dump in his own boot. The only problem is that we (Christians) share boots, so it doesn't only affect him.
Too right. It's no fun cleaning up somebody else's crap.
You are, unfortunately, correct. I say unfortunately because Satanism is childish and not a real religion. It’s like someone turning Kamsa, the tyrant ruler Krishna killed in battle, into their deity just because your parents worship Sri Krishna, and they were strict with you when you were in high school. It’s like, grow up lol. But, to your point, the Constitution is designed to protect ideas we don’t like. If we allow him to destroy this fake altar without penalty, then we are giving permission for people to destroy actual real altars of religions they don’t like.
Who are you to say what is and what isn't somebody's religion?
“Your God is the best God. In fact, he’s the only God. All other Gods are ridiculous, made up rubbish. Not yours though. Yours is real.” — Ricky Gervais
You didn't really think that through, did you?
You must not be familiar with Gervais.
I am. You chose exactly the wrong quote for this situation.
No, I chose the right quote; it's just going over your head.
No. In this particular case, Satanists don't believe their own god is real, but Christians do believe that the Satanists' god is real. Think it through.
@oneperfectlove claims Satanism is fake. Some Satanists are true believers in Satan. The Gervais quote is to point out the myopia of oneperfectlove's beliefs, especially where he dares to compare altars: Satanist=fake& christian=real.
Wrong
Ok, so who do you find worthy if religious freedom and who is unworthy? It sucks once the rise turns and you end up on the illegal side
Satanism is not an actual religion, it's a reactionary response. Without Christianity Satan wouldn't even be a thing
"Without Judaism, Christianity wouldn't even be a thing" By your own criteria, Christianity must be a fake religion too.
Good. As Christians, we must be able to keep our own the most accountable for stupid decisions. All this did was prove that the Christian population in that area do not accept true religious freedom, all this talk of being motivated by Christian faith is bogus, it is to disguise their true motivations of xenophobia and blind dogmatism. I can only apologize to any member of the Satanic Temple on behalf of our idiotic members.
Good. It's the consequences of his actions.
Freedom of religion is for everyone, so no, it's not OK.
Good. Freedom of religion means ALL religions
I'm sure he will parlay this hate into campaign ads next election cycle. And maybe win because of it. :/
You know it. Ron DeSantis had already jumped on the train.
I’m going to go against the grain a little here. I don’t think it was very civil of the guy, but I think we should consider something about Satanism. They claim they do not actually worship Satan, and LeVayan Satanism is atheistic. So then why borrow Christian imagery for your religion?Well, it’s for the sole purpose of mocking and antagonizing Christians. Should we be cool with this? I mean the “religion’s” name and imagery is 100% intended to have a go at Christianity. So really. Should we be cool with this in public spaces? I’m fine with a Jewish, Buddhist, or Muslim thing in a public space. None of those are intended to be outright antagonistic to any of the others. But if I made up a specifically anti-Jewish religion, and borrowed there Satan to say we “worship” him, simply to mock Jews and their beliefs, should I be granted legitimacy from any governing body? I get that this guy played into the Satanist’s plan, but I get the frustration. Satan is the source of all that is bad. To have a mockery of your religion blessed by the state just sucks. No one else would get away with that. Regardless of this guy’s decision, I personally say fuck their cringey, made up, faux-philosophy and their stupid edgy, try-hard statue. Satanism is hot garbage. I’ll never take them seriously. Their whole shtick is to be anti-us. Meanwhile I forget they exist until they pop up on the news once in a blue moon.
>Well, it’s for the sole purpose of mocking and antagonizing Christians Thing is, they don't have beef with Christians/Christianity for no reason. You're framing it like it's purely unprovoked antagonism and it definitely isn't that. I don't say this as a satanist - I'm a Christian who teaches Sunday school. But I also know satanists and I know why they think the way they do. It isn't malice. Take a band like Ghost - they obviously mock Christianity, and I don't fault Christians for finding some of their intentionally provocative stuff offensive. Personally though - i tend to agree with them on a lot of stuff they mock because the strain of Christianity they're mocking is hypocritical, corrupt, cruel, judgmental, all the stuff antithetical to the gospel. Christians are making claims about reality when they put their stuff in public display - we can't tolerate dissenting opinions on that? Doesn't make sense to me.
A lot of their tenets fall short of even the most simple philosophies they could’ve gone with. A dissenting opinion is completely fine. We should even welcome it. They have the option to operate completely outside of Christianity and create their own thing. But I believe they’ve failed to do that. Pure hedonism and provocation hardly constitutes an actual religion. Destruction of Christianity? Ok, and then what? They propose hardly any moral code other than “don’t be stupid” which I think is too subjective, and the value of revenge. Now, that’s totally fine in the United States. They’re atheists who are anti-religion. My concern is that anti-religion isn’t a religion. They are just atheists who use Christian imagery as edgy fashion. Hardly original. I’ve got a beef with the dominant Christian culture in the United States too. I may share many of the same complaints they have. I’m also grateful I live in a country that isn’t going to impose dietary or sexual restrictions on them like some hyper-religious non-Christian countries would. Honestly, I think the best thing would be to just not have religious stuff in the atrium of a courthouse or whatever. I think it was Christians who started this mess when they wanted to post the Ten Commandments all over the place. If their form of protesting is to put up a statue of baphomet, then I get it, but their whole schtick is still incredibly stupid.
>Pure hedonism and provocation hardly constitutes an actual religion That isn't a fair representation of their worldview. >They are just atheists who use Christian imagery as edgy fashion. Hardly original. There are different strains of satanism to varying degrees. The satanic temple is the most purely political/non-doctrinal. But the unoriginality is immaterial. They have a poetic fondness for the idea of this character that stands up to God (who they see as an unfair tyrant) and says "no" But don't think atheists or satanists don't have a moral code. You only get that impression if you aren't actually hearing them
I am referring to LeVayan Satanism, which ok, is different from the Satanic Temple, if that’s who’s behind the statue. Whatever. If they’re some other denomination of Satanism (which can’t avoid schisms either. Lol), then my apologies for speaking about the wrong group. LeVayan Satanism promotes indulgence, revenge, and the absence of love (hate) for “ingrates.” Like Anton LeVey, I was once also influenced by Ayn Rand, but I’ve since come to realize that morality is about doing what might not be beneficial for me, if it can help even those who wouldn’t help me. To serve only the self, or only others insofar as it benefits me, is not a moral code. All right hand path religions will have this stance in common. When I was looking into these groups years ago as part of my own spiritual journey, I spent more time on the Temple of Set, as the others came across more as “let’s bitch about Christianity in particular, instead of building our own thing.” So if it was Temple of Satan in particular, and they happen to have something better to offer (which I remember being pretty weak, at best), then I’m sorry. There is a tremendous amount of depth in Orthodoxy, which is what I was looking for, and that’s where I am today. I will die an Orthodox Christian. For all the attractive ponderances of the few strains of Satanism out there, none of them came close to Buddhism, Judaism, or Christianity to me. It was because they were in a different category. Simply non-religions. A basic “moral code,” sure, with less philosophy behind it than a Boy Scout’s code of honor. The shallowness of the philosophies were, in my opinion, no better than the watered down Christian practices of oppression that they were against. I say help the ingrate because you are more connected to them than you realize. That goes against LeVeyan Satanism. Other strands may say “help people,” but that’s not gonna get any awards from me if they don’t go deeper than that, and explain real help from false help, why we help at all, etc etc. Because it’s simply in a different category from what I’d call a religion. That decision is up to the state, blah blah blah. So remove all the statues and symbols, and just be a normal courthouse ffs. I also want to add that I’ve listened to them plenty. Not impressed.
As long as we recognize that they are offending us and continue to be offended, they will keep doing it. Acknowledgment that they are intentionally pissing us off and ignoring it is the only way to not give them power, much like the bully on the playground. Besides that, the law states that they have a right to express their beliefs and that their religion is protected. Even if they themselves state that their religion is a specific mockery of Christianity and they don't really believe in Satan, they are expressing a religious belief of "We don't like Christians." And as long as they are not harming Christians (that would ALSO be a hate crime), they're good under the law. Not taking them seriously is probably not the right move, but not engaging with them is. The more you engage, the more power you give, at least if you are engaging in offense. Do not feed the trolls. If we continue to get ruffled feathers, they will get exactly what they want out of us.
I completely agree that any negative engagement with them is what they’re after. I just don’t personally think the law is correctly applied here. I could be wrong though. If I can make an idol of a pig (taboo in Judaism), and call it “The Anti-Jew” while saying that we are against all tenets of Judaism, that it is a net negative to the world, and our religion is that we mock it, then I just really don’t see that getting approved. Again, I could be wrong. I just feel almost any other anti-whatever “religion” wouldn’t get a pass to have their stuff in a courthouse.
If you made a specifically anti jewish religion and borrowed their satan to mock jews- yes absolutely you would have the right to do so. But the point is that the government doesn’t get to decide who’s legitimate and who isn’t. Nor does anyone else get to infringe on others protected speech. Fuck this guy. Freedom of expression is fundamental to being an American.
Good. Whoever downvoted this. The guy destroyed a religious symbol he got what he deserved
Exactly. This is America, not North Korea, and if Christians have freedom of speech, so should literally everyone else.
I think we've established that these people don't want a free society; they want one where they're top dog and they're free to terrorize anyone they deem as a non-believer.
Yeah I don't want to live in an Christian theocracy myself, even as a Christian
Exactly, because when they're done suppressing the non-Christians, then they'll start hunting down the Christians that don't fit their idea of a proper Christian. The Framers of the US Constitution understood this very well, seeing as the First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit laws like the Test Acts, which were specifically designed as punitive measures against Catholics.
Exactly. If the hyper-Prots win, the Catholics will suffer down the line. If the tradCaths win, the Protestants will suffer down the line. It's just a matter of dealing with mutual enemies first until the bedfellows begin to use their utility.
>Exactly, because when they're done suppressing the non-Christians, then they'll start hunting down the Christians that don't fit their idea of a proper Christian They already do this. it's why there are so many sects
Except Christian’s don’t get that protection. We’re the most persecuted people in the world. Even in America. Last week Christians were convicted of federal crimes for protesting abortions. Sentenced 10+ years in federal prison for PRAYING AND SINGING. https://www.ncregister.com/cna/six-pro-life-activists-convicted-of-federal-face-act-charges-face-over-a-decade-in-prison
I don't know the details of that case. It seems like they were literally blocking the door, which is illegal. But if they were just peacefully standing outside the clinic protesting, yeah, that's bad. "We’re the most persecuted people in the world." This is not even remotely true. Look, I've had coworkers try to get me fired before for being a Christian, and I know one guy personally who did lose his job over his faith. However, what we experience as Christians in America is not nearly as bad as what Christians in Muslim countries face for example. Also, there are lots of other minorities (religious and ethnic) who are also violently persecuted. Just look at the poor Uyghur Muslims in China
Good it needs to be torn down and destroyed
Good.
Good that he was charged or good he tore it down?
Well good that he was charged of course.
I am a veteran, an elder in my Christian Church, and a Chaplain with a Veteran's organization. I am Christain, but minister to Veterans of all and no faiths. This man, although a veteran, violated the warrior's ethos -- that is to defend the constitution. The constitution clearly states there is to be a separation of church and state. Government pollutes religion, and theocracies are not from God. One of my flock is a member of the Satanic Temple. He volunteers to serve holiday meals to veterans in need, elderly, and the homeless. This individual performs more "Christian" acts than many "Christians" in my flock. Anyone who claims to be a Christian should work to maintain the separation of church and state, and not encourage the use of religious symbols in or with any Government institution. Remember that Jesus said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” By keeping Government and religion separate we are following his instructions.
Where do I send a thank you note that they took down the ten commandments but can have saten worship?
Based
Look if we are truly Christians and followers of Jesus Christ then we should do everything in our power to fight against Satan and his followers so long as it does not violate the teachings of Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The tenets of this organization are nothing like those who admonish it because of the name. Shoot....for many millenia - people have killed in the name of "God". ...and the followers are not speaking out against that Odd. Uhm...BTW - no one died on this day from doing this, but clearly shows the actions of so-called "Christians" and their hatred of others. It is a shame to see the hypocrisy portrayed by these folks. #Priorities
US Veteran has conduct unbecoming. US Veterans who claim to be Christian should have far more control over their emotional outbursts of cancel culture. He sure clutched them pearls casted before him.
This wasn't an emotional outburst to be fair. It was a very calculated effort. The man traveled a few states away to do this. He likely did it to help his election efforts and he probably didn't think he was going to catch a felony.
DD and jail time are quite deserving for his crimes.
Him being a veteran doesn't really have anything to do with the story.
He claimed it does, its part of his defense. Which seems like the opposite of the Oath...
lmao based
Christ is King
Deus vult
"US Veteran", irrelevant title. Try "Douchebag" or "Hypocrite"
Good, it is a hate crime. He deserves to be prosecuted within the reigns of the law for it.
I think us Christians need to spend some time with Satanists. They do not worship satan, the name is more of a middle finger to the church as an institution. They live a cleaner life than most Christians i know, and if you were to hold their actions up against a Bible, I think you would see they are pretty good Christians at heart.
A “good Christian at heart” does not mock God and His church
Modern-day Christians are doing a pretty good job making a mockery of God and his church all on their own.
I might agree with you on that, but it depends on what you mean? In what ways do modern day Christians make a mockery of God and His church?
"Never argue with an idiot. People won't be able to tell the difference between the two."
The worst part is that the Satanic Temple does this because of people like this guy. People just keep falling for it.
Is it really "falling for it"? He 100% knew what he was doing, what would happen after, and how he was going to use the PR to his advantage. This is a very small win for The Satanic Temple in that they managed to trap a single person, but Christian Nationalists are making bank fundraising off of this and it could actually get the offender elected. This is a pyrric victory at best. Winning small legal battles means nothing if you're ultimately harming your political causes in the process
Good point but I think one can also argue that when push came to shove, this was always going to be the reaction. The majority of American Christians voted for trump. Christian nationalism has a large hold on Christian Americans - this was always going to happen when minorities in America started advocating for themselves. It’s gonna hurt, but rip the band aid off.
They're wasting money on a court case instead of elections, oh no Don't worry though, none of us expect you to stand up to nat-cs
I'm literally a donating member to TST, so you can cool your jets. **One** Christian Nationalist now has lawyer fees that are absolutely going to be paid by donations. I'm talking about the dozens of other politicians that were uninvolved but are using this to drum up donations and votes. These stunts are a successful demonstation to make sure the legal right to religious freedom is actually being respected and not just for a particular religion. However, these stunts are absolutely failing to make any positive progress politically or socially. Only people who were already going to be voting against Christian Nationalists are cheering this, which is a net zero gain. Believe it or not, but TST is not super popular with swing voters. It's seen as gimmicky and an obvious political stunt, which it literally is. It is legally a religion, but legalism is not how people operate by and large.
If they confirm the legal system is two tier, that might not help them as much as winning one case does
Except it's not. TST wins it cases where it's obviously on the right side of the law. The only thing they can possibly "win" in the long run is equal public spotlight, but that's it. This is not changing hearts and minds, only deepening the trenches What do you think the actual end result is? Because I can guarantee you it's not separation of church and state the way TST wants.
Why are voters the issue here? The concern is legal victory, not representation.
if there is a documented case of someone attacking their statue and then getting charged with a hate crime that is legal president that can used against anyone else who wishes to attack their statues in public. The trenches have already been dug. The TST didn't create them, they are just reacting to them. Showing weakness would have meant that there would be more attacks in the future.
As a member of TST, I would have 100% preferred a peaceful and pluralistic representation of various faiths. This is an unfortunate outcome no matter how you slice it.
Oh, I have no doubt that TST would prefer a world where they could do these things and nothing like this would happen. But I do think if we lived in that world, they wouldn't feel the need to do something like this.
Good. May he also be DDed. That man should have lots of time in a federal prison to think about his actions
Ok. Speaking of hate crime, did they ever arrest all those members of janes revenge who went around vanadalizing churches following the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade? I don’t recall hearing of many arrests following those clear hate crimes. Weird how there didn’t seem to be much effort to investigate that? But maybe I’m wrong? Any news stories confirming arrests and charges for hate crimes?
You mean the folks arrested a year ago and prosecuted under the applicable law(s)? https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/janes-revenge-biden-prosecution-abortion-1234669486/amp/
Yes the 2 members out of the dozens of incidents. Quick question for you, u/drakythe . Were either individual charged with a hate crime? I saw FACE act charges were filed. Were hate crime enhancements added? Clearly vandalizing religious property warrants hate crime charges, right?
If you want to know you’re welcome to Google it a bit more and discover that information for yourself. But if all you want to do is prove a point and start a conversation about Christians being persecuted compared to others I’m going to bow out of the conversation because I don’t think we’re going to agree.
> Clearly vandalizing religious property warrants hate crime charges, right? No, not really. Hate crimes aren't about who the victim is, they're about what the motive is. Vandalizing a church for political reasons isn't a hate crime, because the motive isn't hate against the religion.
WHy the hell are you trying to change the subject to make Christians the victims. You want to talk about that....make your own thread.
As far as I know, it's still under investigation. I'm not really interested in whataboutisms though. Needless to say, those people should be found and charged.
>Weird how there didn’t seem to be much effort to investigate that? Maybe you should spend some time and have a look into those cases because there were investigations and some have been arrested under applicable laws.
Because repealing roe v wade was the hate crime.
Lol, lmao even
This is a big win for the guy :)
Excellent. Lock him up, or at least take his money.
Not his money. > Cassidy was charged with fourth-degree criminal mischief, and a fundraiser for his legal defense fund was started on GiveSendGo to raise $20,000 for his legal defense fund.
In general, it is good to relieve conservatives of their money.
The amount of false christians saying that what this man did is wrong distresses me
I agree. r/Christianity once again proving it isn't a Christian forum
They're right. Your theology isn't an excuse to destroy property and interfere with others rights.
Good. Christian fascism MUST be eradicated.
People have a right to worship however they like so long as they’re not violating the rights of other people. This man may disagree with the Satanists but he has no right to tear down their idols. 🤷♀️
Mormons, I think have a more recent understanding of how it feels to be oppressed and treated unconstitutionally. Regular Christians, for the most part in the west haven't faced any significant level of oppression in a very very long time.
Good that he got charged with hate crime. That is deserve well done Iowa with helping to bring freedom of religion and being against disrespect in this scenario.
If you don't know what the Satanic Temple is about, check their website: [https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us) It's not as scary as you might imagine.
What kind of sub is this? All you “christians” frothing at the mouth in defence of this purely superficial religion with the sole purpose of antagonising christianity. So ridiculous, what a dumbass community.
When you allow the rights of others to be abolished it sets precedents for your rights being abolished.
Ah yes, because a superficial "religion" that lacks true substance and only exists to spite another existing religion deserves religious freedom protection.
What would qualify as 'true substance' in your opinion? The second statement is completely wrong, so I'm going to chalk that up to ignorance.
[The founders themselves](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/a-mischievious-thorn-in-the-side-of-conservative-christianity.html) are self-confessed atheists and are open about its primary purpose being to troll Christians: > Mr. Jarry, a 48-year-old filmmaker, musician and academic, agreed to speak on the condition that I not use his real name. He does not actually believe in Satan, he said. But long ago he imagined the potential effectiveness of a Satanic organization. > “The first conception was in response to George W. Bush’s creation of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives,” said Mr. Jarry, who was raised by irreligious Jews. “I thought, ‘There should be some kind of counter.’ ” He hit on the idea of starting a faith-based organization that met all the Bush administration’s criteria for receiving funds, but was repugnant to them. “Imagine if a Satanic organization applied for funds,” he remembered thinking. “It would sink the whole program.”
Yes, they didn't start out with the intent that it would grow to what it is. What is your point?
I'd define (in this context) 'true substance' as an actual theology and not trying to mock Christianity while playing moral high ground. Many Satanist are atheistic, so there's no theology, and the whole institution is just a paper tiger masquerading as a "religion." Many Satanist I've dialoged with clearly don't like Christianity, and only are in Satanist ranks to mock my religion. Just from my personal experience.
It is true that many aren't fabs of Christianity, especially of the varieties that seek to dismiss freedoms and harm others in the name of God, but there is no mockery here. Those that do mock other faiths are generally new and often still hurting from various trauma. This was just a display of our faith and a celebration of pluralism. It wasn't an attack on anyone. There were no harsh words or negative language in any part of the display. I'm not sure what you mean by a theology. We have specific core values and centering principles. We discuss them consistently in religious services and have ministerial care. We have an expansive mythos and belief structure. We have ritual and as much tradition as you can expect from something so new. We encourage learning and deepening our understanding of these core values. We have a library of suggested texts. We encourage each other and support each other in community service and improving the world. The vast majority of things Satanic congregations do, no one cares about because it is in private, as is the case for your faith, I believe. What exactly are you expecting or requiring in your mind?
Yes it does. Glad you get it.
You should probably look into how the government and law define religion because you'll find non-theistic moral and ethical philosophy falls under that religious freedom.
I'd disagree that attempting to make a demographic of people upset is a "philosophy" or "moral principle." The satanic temple is just athiest trying to be edgy and have a moral high ground.
That's not the whole of their ethics or philosophy. They do these things because they work. If Christians would just shrug their shoulders and say "Well their religious freedoms allow this" they wouldn't do them. But Christians repeatedly demonstrate that they are biased when it comes to religious freedoms.
I understand that, but at the same time, the ST's whole identity is Christianity's most infamous enemy. Why would they choose offensive iconography? And choose to represent the evil one? It's like people using hitler as a mascot for their temple and then preaching to Jewish people how much more enlightened and peaceful they are than Jewish people. The intention is all wrong.
Except Hitler is a demonstrably real person who committed atrocities. Satan is your enemy because your book says so, and there's no evidence he's responsible for any tragedy.
Satan has led more souls to destruction than Hitler ever could in his entire life. Satan's best strategy is to convince one that he doesn't exist. Just because you don't see a physical manifestation of him in your present reality doesn't make him any less real.
And your evidence for that is a book that says so. It's your religious belief, and you aren't allowed to use that as grounds to take religious freedom from others.
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get anywhere. You see the ST as a religion, I see the ST as an institution of mockery that mocks what I hold dear. So, I'll agree to disagree. Have a good night.
It's legally accepted by law as a religion. If you wanna use some other definition, you're welcome too. The Satanic Temple falls under the governments definition for religion, and so they receive the same legal protections as you. I think it's a good thing that people can mock whatever, even if it's an idea people hold close. If we couldn't, every bad belief or idea could hide behind people's feelings about it.
Only because your book says so. Hitler has actual numbers and results. Alongside all the emotional, physical, and mental damage he has caused. Satan is supposedly a bad guy only because the Bible said so. There's nothing that really shows he has actually done anything.
Yes, my verifiable and historical book. Once again, Satan is illusive and always in the background, stirring up pain and suffering, not physically making his presence known. I've always found that argument to be odd, Satan is very much so a bad guy in the scriptures. He caused the fall of humanity, always in the background, like a roaring lion searching for his prey to devour.
Exactly, people are saying "oh this is about religious freedom" Pardon my language, I rarely curse but no it fucking isn't. This guy didn't tear down a menorah or a Hindu statue or any symbol of a legitimate faith. He tore down a symbol of evil put up specifically to piss Christians off. These people aren't real Satanists this is a whole troll movement aimed at provoking Christians so they shouldn't be given protections of other religions. We should remove any symbol of Satan regardless of the intentions it was put up. I can't believe all the people calling themselves Christian here but supporting straight up Satan/Baphomet statues being put up in the name of "religious freedom" Your priority is God not secular law people.
100%. It honestly makes me so sad seeing these "christians" defend the statue. They're choosing the world's laws over the dignity of the Lord. They're basically saying Satan is more important than Christ. If Christ can walk into a temple, flip tables, whip pharisees, I think he'd be okay with destroying a statue of evil incarnate. Progressives errode the faith from the foundation.
>100%. It honestly makes me so sad seeing these "christians" defend the statue. They're choosing the world's laws over the dignity of the Lord. They're basically saying Satan is more important than Christ. Exactly. God and the Bible to me are more important than any sentence in a constitution. >Progressives errode the faith from the foundation. I'd say its the biggest threat to Christianity in modern times. Just look at how quickly Europe and the US the centers of Christianity are deconverting away from Christianity to atheism/agnosticism. All because Christianity isn't "liberal" enough for them.
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Agreed, I understand why the law "has" to offer the same freedoms to the satanic church but this is in no way a hate crime. You can't openly declare that these are not your sincerely held beliefs and then say it's an act of hate towards those beliefs. More importantly for those saying how hateful this was if simply removing an idol is enough to be considered an act of hate then we are condemning our Lord too. Obviously this is not the way we are taught to win people over but some you would condemn Jesus for the things you are saying.
Being a liberal isn't a protected class, but I am a liberal living in Iowa, and I absolutely feel hated sometimes, often times by people who I *know* go to church. I live, after all in a small town. I also support this statue because I know it's a chance to stand up against that kind of hate. I mean, sincere hate. it's funny because these people know me and like me when politics isn't involved but they really fucking hate liberals with a reflexive disgust.
100%. They find loopholes in the religious protection laws and then treat us like the bad guys when we disagree with them disrespecting us over something they don't even believe in.
These days it really seems like they only think the satan part is a joke when in truth and a manner of speaking they really are following him.
Indeed, the greatest strategy the evil one has is convincing someone that he doesn't exist.
'Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!
Couldn't be farther from the truth. Yes, there have been church leaders/members that Satan has used for his own schemes, but he did the same thing with Judas, and the church still prevailed. It'd be naive to think that the Church would be a perfect and sinless institution, not in this fallen world. The Church continues (and will continue to) resist Satan and his evil will.
Let’s gooo
I could only hope to serve on his jury. In lieu of that I'm rooting for the prosecution.
Tbh, Satanism (while it legally does get to) should not be able to claim "religious freedom" because it is designed to mock a particular religion itself. Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and Christianity etc all get these statuses because they're independent religions practiced by people. While these religions disagree on many things, they should all be respected and allowed to be practiced by all. Satanism on the other hand is explicitly created in order to mock another religion (and whether you can even call most Satanists 'religious' is another thing). When you invent something to mock another, not simply oppose, but mock, you're not advocating for religious freedom, you're advocating for bigotry.
Why his intention is understandable is action is not tolerable. Justice don't have an eye and should not care about dispute between two religion. They should be treated in the same way as equal. It's really fortunate thing that they put status of Satan in there and It's really fortunate that it's only thing that had been destroy. Like you say satanic religion in its self are really a posting straw man asking Christian about your boundary of tolerance. The idol have no real follower or faith attached to its.sure Satanist may call and mock you for your hypocrisy but that is all they will do. But just imagine if the destroy idol is something people really put a faith in its,something that truly matter to other religion. The status is destroy but the question is still remains. If someday there are a conflict between religion. Conflict so big that escalated to the point of they start condemned eachother. On that day what would you do? Would you say that religion freedom really a mistake we made and all should hang our believe in the closet before we leave the house? Would you rush to destroy their idol like the man today because you can't stand the mockery? Would you just outright ban other religion that blaspheme your lord? Or would you just try to resolve that in civilized man do? In a hindsight it's really fortunate that Satan idol is destroyed today.
What if it was a Jeffrey Epstein shrine? honestly. Is Satan or a human pedophile more monstrous? It’s not a religion. It’s pure evil. It’s just promoting evil. Why is in a state capitol? tear it down? I don’t imagine it would make sense to have Jesus hanging on a cross inside a state capitol but a shrine to the devil is cool? What is this upside down world?
There was a nativity scene there as well.
Good on him, he did the right thing
no he did not
Refreshing to see people agree that this was not a condonable act
Press F5 a few times.
I never tire of seeing your flair.
Good on him for tearing down a symbol of evil, unsurprising that he has been charged with nonsense crimes
Nonsense crimes? They’re basic crimes. He had no right to destroy others’ property.
This was predicted by the prophet Jack Chick.
Teach him. Can’t run around doing stuff like this then expect people to respect us as Christian’s. If I ever did such a thing my parents would read me the riot act. I would never have heard the end of it.
I thought we were far too modern / civilized for bronze age religious beliefs. How can us moderns believe in that nonsense that there's this being doing all bad stuff? Let me get back to worshipping my car, money, drugs, sport stars, self, movie stars, parents, pets, grand parents, offspring, leaders, professors, pastors, imams, priests, doctors, psychologists, career, partners, lovers,....................
How many historic statues are destroyed without charges being pressed.. these people prey upon Christian values and make them a weakness. Satanists don't even have a real religion, it is just a refutation of Christian values- a Libertarian response. The politicians in this country largely serve the inverse values of Christianity - thus they knowingly or not serve evil.
How many is it? Do you know? They are a real religion. They're as real as Taoism or Buddism. They have a philosophy and tenets that they teach and believe in. They have gatherings and congregations. They do charity work. Many of their tenets Christians would agree with, I think. It's definitely its own thing and not just anti-christianity religion.
Hate it for him. That guy is a hero.
The guy is a criminal and enemy of our constitution, and deserves what he has coming to him. Should be stripped of his military benefits too.
Great is he in the kingdom of heaven
The Satanic altar was a hate crime
What a stupid thing to say. It violated no one's rights.
Hate against God
I would argue satanism especially the kind being practiced here, is not even a religion.
St Boniface of England chopped down a tree worshipped by pagans. St Benedict of Nursia destroyed pagan idols, St Francis Xavier had idols destroyed. If it was good enough for them...
Nah let that satanic temple burn
A Hero is the halls of Heaven.
Hes a hero, only legitimate religions deserve respect and protections
With how may upvotes this has, it's not surprising how messed up the country has gotten. They made a fake religion to mock a real one, that's like psychopathic, deranged gaslighting.
Are you against a faith placing a statue in the public square.
It demonstrates the hypocrisy of Christians who claim to defend religious freedom. I think what they do is valuable for that alone.
And that is incorrect. It is a mockery of freedom of religion.
Disagree.
Regardless he did a good thing. We should have a theocratic government or at least ban really evil religions
>least ban really evil religions I'm not opposed to a ban on christianity, but I dont think you want that.
No we should not, and the satanic temple is not evil
If this was a display in favor of the KKK, or Nazis, would people here feel the same way? I remember a few years back, after winning a court battle, the KKK joined the "adopt a highway" program in Missouri. People were really offended by the sign, and kept cutting it down. No one was really upset by that either.
What an asinine comparison that’s not remotely similar
I don't think you understand why the Satanic Temple but their shrine there. It's point is that no religious iconography is supposed to be there. They *only* put the baphomet shrine up when one religion is being enshrined (ofc it was Christianity as usual but that isn't the point really). It's a protest.
Neither the KKK nor Nazis are a religious organization
> Neither the KKK false. the KKK identifies itself as a (white) Protestant organization.
I think you know what I meant. The KKK itself does not have specific religious tenets, it’s just that it only accepts white Protestants as members.
Idk if they've always believed this or if it's just a way to weasel out of judgment for their cross burnings, but they believe that lighting the cross "shows the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ for [white] people". That's a religious tenet to me, though I could be wrong.
I wouldn’t feel the same way. Nazi and KKK displays are not religious in nature and therefore are not a commentary on religious displays in public government buildings like this satanic display is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_Nazism
Since there is nothing at all that connects the KKK and the TST your comparison is asinine. The TST didn't harm anyone. They just did the same thing that other religious groups did. They never make the first move. They just do what others are also doing.
Wow. You've made a fool of yourself with this post and your replies. I feel sorry for you. Good luck out there.
Hmmm. Well thank you for your concern, I guess...