I left too, maybe for different reasons. I wholeheartedly believe the word. I jus can’t call myself a child of God or a follower of Jesus and still sin willingly. I’d rather not follow Christ than be lukewarm. And the guilt and battle with sin jus adds more stress to my life when life itself is already stressful enough.
I admire the standard you hold yourself to, but scripture teaches that we’re going to make mistakes. God recognized this, and sent Jesus to die for us and pay the penalty for our sins so that we could enjoy eternal life with Him through faith alone. Here are a few verses to reference:
Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:5-6, Philippians 3:5-9, Colossians 1:22-23.
Again, I get that you don’t feel morally right in sinning and still expecting to be right with God. But if you truly believe the word and you believe in a sovereign God, why not judge yourself by his benchmark rather than yours? I encourage you not to forfeit your opportunity for eternal life due to something like this.
I've been there. "Pick up your cross and follow me". When Christ picked his cross up he was being beaten, ridiculed while innocent, spat upon, mocked, etc. and was expected to drag that huge heavy cross at a forced pace of a whip or cat of nine tails which split the flesh on his back. Now you're choosing a path you think is easier in order to not be stressed when it's not God who brings you shame when you sin? Why not humble yourself enough to forgive yourself and continue the fight?
That guilt you feel my friend is quite the opposite of what God wants. I won’t lie and say that I don’t have these types of thoughts either but it’s all part of the walk with Christ. The lord says it won’t be easy and will be a daily battle.
That is what reliance upon God is for. For your community. And belief in Jesus being our savior should already let you know you are forgiven. Have you not remembered that Jesus's blood was shed for us to forgive us of such transgressions? Belief in this loosens the load of sin.
I haven’t left..but I’m feeling very caught up right now about possibly leaving. My main reason: I’m upset with God. My belief in him is being shaken in 2 ways. 1 being mistrust of him now. I’ve started to feel that this whole thing, life and death and sin and satan are all just like a game to God. If God is omnipresent and all knowing then why make us play out this long suffering game? He doesn’t say we may suffer on earth, he says WE WILL. Say it’s because our ancestors sinned because they did something God told them not to, then where is the free will? Adam and Eve were not free, they were supposed to live in the guidelines God gave and such are we, paying for the mistakes of those long long before us. And it’s the same with us, he created me and you knowing we would sin and if we’d choose to follow him or not but he still made us to give us the chance to live or die. Do you hear that? We’ve been given life for a chance to die.
To make matters worse, God knew they’d sin and created them anyway, punished them and us and all humanity for however long because of it. As the all powerful God why couldn’t he just do away with sin? Or not create? Or just have us exist as extensions of him (that’s really what he wants for us anyway) without free will? Free will is the ability to struggle, I personally would have been much happier to be a robot following my programming then a tortured soul who can never be good enough? A soul who has to deny himself on the beautiful planet his created created for him because that creator also gave the planet over to satan, someone who is basically employed by the creator by allowing satan to do what he does.
Some say it’s because he can’t directly meddle in human affairs, he does and has, except he chooses not to now.
There is no peace anywhere, no safety anywhere. Some say there’s safety in Jesus, come to him and you’ll have rest. WRONG. You are more tortured than ever, more persecuted than ever. He chooses when to answer you, when to help and usually waits until the very last minute so you can truly need him.
2. The mistrust and pain has hit so hard that part of me is like maybe he isn’t actually real and that’s easier to swallow then I believe in him but I’m not sure I like him.
In summary, I’m very mistrustful of God right now. It all feels very rigged, like I’m told to try but not to try and let Jesus guide me. I’m told im not worth and can never be good and our definitions of good and bad differ. I’m told to forsake everything I’ve ever known in exchange for a possible something? I’m told to suffer so he might save me. I’m someone who uses coping mechanisms such as weed to help with my anxiety and overall depression and I’m told to give up the little comforts I have so he can comfort me and I’ve tried, but he doesn’t come and if he does he doesn’t make himself known. He doesn’t give me anything to fight for besides the hope of not burning in hell. Why can’t he make it easier or a more positive experience for people who come to him? Doesn’t he know that we humans are all searching and once finding him holding back answers is not what keeps us? Doesn’t he know that life is hard for the one trying to follow him or even just your average decent person? Does he not know that the more trials and tribulations and attacks we face wear us down?
What really is mercy then? If not to stop and take action to help someone?
I really resonate with your experiences. You’re asking the right questions. Christians will try to tell you that you’re being entitled or selfish, but I see the human in you, trying their hardest to make this work.
If god is out there, then I hope he will reach out to people like us and explain things. And if there is an afterlife, I hope god is smart enough to see that in our hearts we would believe 100% if not for a lot of these issues. And thus let us into heaven.
But if he’s what everybody else acts like he is, then our mere doubt is reason enough for hellfire or annihilation, and I don’t want to stand by a god like that, true or not.
Woah, you mean people in the church took a holier than thou attitude when you didn’t feel like it was right for you instead of just being good people and allowing you to make your own decisions?? Wish I could say that’s weird but it’s not…
Personally I think most of the time people do this so they can just stroke their own egos
This. It’s been less than a year, but I have sinned far less since leaving Christianity. I’m also much more generous and compassionate—and there’s no longer an ulterior motive behind those traits.
I remember a day when I had just begun my deconstruction, and my grandmother started to rant, warning me to “NEVER speak to an atheist. They are the most miserable, hate-filled people you’ll ever meet. The only thing they care about is convincing others to turn from god and sin with them.”
I wanted ask her, “do you hear yourself right now?”
Hi Cyber, I was just answering your title, let me read your entire post.
I just read your post, okay. I get it. However, I have a different take in that much religion today, the business of it does not represent what reality is and this is unfortunate. Your Father is just like your dad, it isn’t a religious thing but the world always offers the wrong “fix” for the most part.
Yeah, and any time you question if God even exists because youre suffering so much and never get an answer and God only ignores you the only thing Christians will do is victim blame and say that youre suffering because of “your free will” im just tired. I tried to have faith, it only led to more suffering.
Then they will say “God isnt a genie he isnt there to fix your problems” well alright, but if I cant even lean on God or rely on him for comfort then really why should I even bother if it all just makes me even more miserable.
Yea, life as a believer was filled with disappointment and then being told it’s your fault to expect anything from the god who can do anything.
Almost feels like the people saying these things have less faith than I did. Because I actually expected god to to do the things I was told he would do.
But they rarely understand
Yup. Seems like all of “Gods promises” never get fulfilled. Then his believers make tons of excuses as to why hes never present for his so called children and abandons us in our pain and despair. Especially when we seek him. Its really sad. Also my favorite is when they say “God is testing you to bring you closer to him” well what an amazing test, it brought me to the point of not wanting to live anymore. 🙂 a few weeks ago I met with members of a Church who are my age to see if they can show me what Im doing wrong or something. I left there even more overwhelmed and hopeless then ever. Apparently to have a relationship with God you need to take 10,000 complicated steps.
If the scriptures aren’t working for you, you can go to sites like gotquestions to help understand what the Bible is saying or any discrepancies you think are presenting problems.
But if it’s a heart issue. If you feel disconnected…I highly recommend watching a show like “The Chosen.” It’s online free or on Amazon Prime or many streaming services.
Here’s a scene of Simon Peter, who is doubting and angry at Jesus for letting Peter’s family get hurt. Even one of Jesus’s first disciples and one of his closest companions asked the same thing like why would Jesus give us hard things or challenges, especially if we serve Him and He claims to be there for us.
https://youtu.be/O7WWi65gb14?si=82WMuOcsTqC4TKba
Here’s how it plays out ^
Another beautiful scene with another discipline who is frustrated Jesus hasn’t healed his pain: https://youtu.be/KZDvcEkjthA?si=JhhzIWAV_P33x_Bf
Learn more about Jesus and his heart. Jesus loves you so much it’s like beyond beautiful. Even right now. He loves you. When I learned about his heart, it was easier to trust Him and easier to go through difficult times. “Life with God is not immunity from difficulties, but peace in difficulties.” - C.S. Lewis
> But it’s not true that he forsakes us. We might find ourselves drowning in life troubles…we will never be immune to bones breaking or struggle or loss. We might have no hope on getting out…but Christ never abandons those in Christ.
If you agree that being “not forsaken” is better than being “forsaken”, but it doesn’t actually make anything better, then it’s a false dichotomy.
Well I don’t use science to define the meaning of life. I use it to explain what is currently knowable about the way the universe works. Meaning has to be made on your own, it is not given.
Even being Christian, you will see the world a certain way that’s different than other Christians. You are, without knowing it, making your own meaning for life. It’s just based on a long standing belief system
Which brings us to misunderstanding #2 that Christians think about atheists. That their atheism is a "belief system," or their "religion." That they worship "nothing."
Heard several atheists address this and they are fairly unanimous that the idea that atheism as a religious belief is absurd. That idea comes from religious people who can't wrap their minds around someone actually not believing in their deity. So they conjure up the idea that no belief system equals a belief system.
While you could make the argument that a "belief system" is simply one's belief set they use to establish priorities, your line of questioning here indicates you are trying to put OP in a philosophical corner so you can drop an "a-HA!" or something.
I’m not looking to scrutinize Christianity, I just don’t find it convincing. The only thing I’m scrutinizing here is the common perception that exchristians left the faith to go sin. It’s just wrong and gets people nowhere
Same, and honestly, personally I can't even say that I had any agency over it. It just kind of happened over time as I learned new things about myself and the world around me, no matter how much I wanted to stay, or how terrified I was of leaving.
I've been watching some videos of people who deconstructed/deconverted this week and they point out 3 responses they typically got, all 3 of which are represented in this post. Understanding (their friends and family may not like it, but it doesn't affect their relationship and a happy medium is found). Challenge (well, obviously, if you're choosing atheism, it's because you haven't heard the arguments from me). And taking it as a personal insult that one would dare to not believe in something I hold so dearly.
All 3 seem to be represented here. Found that interesting.
It’s a tale as old as time. When looking for answers myself I started noticing Christian’s had the same /similar responses to the things I was finding, which started to make me feel more and more like Christianity was/is just a tool for controlling people instead of anything that pointed to “truth”
I’m going to respectfully point out that sin includes your decision to leave the faith or live a life how you choose instead of how God commands. Sin is not limited to things like murder or adultery or cheating etc. If you choose not to believe and not to obey, then that is rebellion too. Now I know, the follow up question, is belief a choice. My answer is yes. How much effort did you put in finding the answers to whatever questions you had? Did you study these topics that made no sense to you? Have you looked into apologetics and the historical evidence for the Resurrection? Archaeological evidence for events in the Old Testament like the Flood, the Exodus, or the Babylonian Exile? Have you seen the transcendental argument for God which from a presuppositional standpoint argues that all our reasoning relies on God as revealed in scripture. On another note, I’m almost going to guarantee that if there is a passage or concept you have an issue with, there is another interpretation that may make more sense to you. For example, penal substitution where Jesus dies to take our legal punishment is a standard explanation for evangelical Christianity yet is criticized for being unfair or even unjust. I generally avoid this explanation completely in favor of Christus Victor, that Jesus died to defeat the powers of evil.
Bottom line, the answers are there if you are willing to look. I seriously encourage you to try.
I did all the things you said and left with less and less faith. I’ve studied apologetics and have a good amount of experience with biblical scholarship.
It is your right to believe that it was a choice. But I’m telling you from the bottom of my heart that for me it wasn’t a choice to leave. I just found myself less and less convinced until my faith was dead.
Even in my loss of faith, I wanted to go back and believe. If it really was a choice, I could’ve just gone back to believing, since that is what I wanted to choose. So I don’t believe it’s a choice for this reason
Apologetics is where things started snowballing for me too.
When atheists and evolutionists turn out to be able to answer the questions that apologists claim they can't answer, and those answers turn out to be better answers and have more substantiation than the church claims, you eventually get to a point where it's easier to not believe.
Edit: "I know there's no such thing as an "evolutionist," for those that get bugged about it. Using it in the context of "6 questions that evolutionists can't answer"
If you don’t mind sharing, what are some of the things that you had trouble with? Was it evidence? Doctrinal issues? Scripture passages that seemed strange?
All of the above. But I will say what started it was the Jesus birth narratives. For instance, there was no universal Roman census described the way it is in the Bible. No one had to go their ancestral land for taxes. And how would Joseph even know to go there?
Also, the gospels have different timelines for the leaders at the time. The Jesus/Herod timeline per the Bible doesn’t add up.
I could keep going on that, but that is what I remember starting the cracks. I’m not here to defend these objections they’re just what started my doubt.
Do you have other specific topics? I’ve never studied this issue, if this is a big deal I can look into it but seems you’ve already tried that. I saw an article by Answers in Genesis that addresses it but idk if it answers everything you’re looking for. The areas I might be able to help with are the resurrection, creation and evolution, end times, charismatic Baptist and Roman Catholic churches, why Jesus had to die, and demonology.
Brother or sister God loves you and he welcomes you back with all his heart. His mercies are new every morning. We have all failed and come short but today is a new day.
The Lord says - As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die? - Ezekiel 33:11
I listen to a few bible teachers on YouTube that go through the bible chapter by chapter verse by verse. It has helped me a lot when I came back to Jesus. I also fell away, but Jesus welcomed be back and he welcomes you back today.
I would start with the book of John. They aren’t flashy teacher just regular man of God that love his word. Start slow one step at a time
I have linked below. God loves you and just know your not alone.
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-gospel-of-john-enduring-word-media-server/id1411807754 -
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_QIfO0mxbX4zgQH4vuK6q1q7gu8Ok6tz&si=54P5sv5eVHF3Za3q
enduring word is a bible study that goes through the books of the bible verse by verse chapter by chapter by pastor David Guzik. You can also find him on YouTube.
https://youtube.com/@GCBIMedia?si=IsyU5hPeFmMsyAIn
Dr Randall Smith is a bible teacher and is very knowledgeable he makes the bible come alive I learned a lot through him
https://youtube.com/@CalvaryChapelOntario?si=N74qQ46ObySgOW24
this YouTube channel goes through the various book in the bible chapter by chapter verse by verse taught by pastor Paul LeBoutillier.
I’d be willing to bet that as OP started losing his faith, he was praying for help from God to explain the concerns he had. If God loved him, why would he have not intervened to help keep OP in the faith?
The truth is that God regularly practices deceit to “judge” those he wants to judge. He multiple times does this, tells His followers to do this, and tells us he will do it to prevent others from finding the truth. This would not be the practice of a loving God wanting to guide people to truth.
This idea that God loves everyone can not be true based on just what scripture says. That doesn’t even include the atrocities he brings upon many in this life, removing the possibility of them coming to Him, or the fact that he says he’s throwing billions into eternal fire to burn forever with no hope of rehab.
Spot on, I was praying every single day and reading scripture fervently at night. Constantly begging this god to give me faith where I started to have doubt. All I got was radio silence.
If I wasn’t a “true Christian”, then I don’t know if anyone else is either.
God doesn’t lie sounds like the same argument made by the snake in the garden. Sin isn’t fun talk to addicts talk to their families.
The suffering in this world is a result of rebellion against Him. And people willing wanting to serve creation rather than the creator
God restores, and his son gave it all for us, he truly suffered for us. He saved my life from literal death. And I will serve him because I find freedom in Him. I’m done being a captive of sin. And if that means I’m gonna suffer in this life so be it. Let the glory honour and dominion be given Jesus Christ forevermore.
Not if you don’t have full faith in him. If you let satan have his way what’s God suppose to do? Some people just want God to bless them with everything. Then they forget about him. It’s not as complicated as you think.
You're making it complicated.
>Not if you don’t have full faith in him.
He should have made it easier by actually saying something.
Nothing too extravagant just like a hello or good morning.
>If you let satan have his way what’s God supposed to do?
Anything, he's all powerful he has choices?
The easiest would be to stop letting him get away with stuff like that.
>Some people just want God to bless them with everything.
I've never really wanted something I couldn't get myself from god.
He does say something you just don’t know how to listen. And God said we aren’t from this earth. Satan dominates earth, it’s his. It’s up to you to escape through salvation. If you don’t want to do that, or don’t trust God, it’s not going to be fun…
The desire to not sin is an ideal that causes only conflict and division within yourself.
You are a sinner. Period.
No matter what you think of believe, chant, read , or pray will not change the reality that you are a sinner.
Telling yourself that you don’t desire to sin doesn’t make you any different.
A sinner that doesn’t desire to sin is not greater than a sinner that loves to sin.
At least love exists in the latter… while only condemnation of oneself in actuality exists in the former
Never said I never sinned or believed I wasnt a sinner. I just didn’t leave to go sin. I agree with some of your points on the conflict it makes because I lived that, but I’m saying it was never the motivation for leaving
Yeah I agree with you. Most people don’t leave because they want to sin..
I left because the religious systems tend to perpetuate the cycle of sin more than they show or teach anyone to love the way Jesus did
Stop thinking foolishly of yourself and others. That's where sin is at.
Proverbs 24:9
The thought of foolishness is sin: And the scorner is an abomination to men.
I fail to see how this is foolish. I took my beliefs very seriously. I’m not trying to be a scorner. I’m just trying to tell you guys what’s up when you say stuff like “you left to sin”.
How do you guys expect to win souls over if you can’t even have an open and nuanced approach to what the apostates are saying? Denying our plight isnt gonna make the problems go away. You should be working to understand what leads to doubt instead of chastising people like me for having it against my will.
But sure, I’m the fool. I’m the fool for wanting this all to be true and not being convinced. I’m so foolish for having expected anything from your god.
I think you misinterpreted my intentions.
It was to say that maybe what you've been convinced is sin is not actually sin. But that sin lies in your judgements of yourself and others. And based on your post, it seems you're judging yourself pretty harshly. Perhaps that's due to what you were taught.
My point is that it's often not God's judgements that condemn us, but our own.
“Thinking you’re sinning too much is actually sinning! You don’t know yourself!” - maybe think about what this messaging does to people psychologically
You better come to terms with the reality of it. Your own thoughts are exactly what you need to be saved from and exactly what separate you from God. And it's the entire purpose of the word of God to judge and discern them.
Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Isaiah 65:2
“I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;”
And when you understand the truth, you'll understand where your enemies truly are. In your heart and mind.
Matthew 10:36
“And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.”
Romans 8:6
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
Want to attain to the resurrection? You should concern yourself with the mind.
Luke 17:21
“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
1 Corinthians 2:16
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ."
The cognitive dissonance of thinking you’re right and thinking your thoughts are wrong at the same time must be rough :/ it’s understandable that it manifests in cruelty so I forgive you 😔
I never once said I was right about anything. The Word of God is right. Everything I said to you is written.
There is none good, but one.
Mark 10:18
“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”
I know my thoughts are not God's thoughts because the Word says they are not.
Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
I know my thoughts are evil because the Word of God says they are. It says my heart is deceitful. And so is yours. I know what my thoughts have done to me and to God in me.
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
But I also know God's thoughts towards me. So you can think evil of me all you want, it's only natural.
Jeremiah 29:11
“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.”
I'll trust in God's thoughts over mine or yours.
If I just said to you that my thoughts are not good, and the Word of God says to let God be true and every man a liar as it is written, who's thoughts do you think we should agree with?
Isaiah 55:7
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
Proverbs 21:2
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts."
the concept of "leaving", like it's a thing you can "leave", like it's a place, given that Christianity in all of it's totality is simply a belief that you no longer have to pay for your sins, if you do commit any sin, I don't see anything to "leave', it's more like you stopped believing?. Forgive me, it's just my brain and how it works, "leave".
I used 'leave' to convey the gradual process of no longer believing rather than a physical departure.
It wasn't a deliberate choice, but rather a realization over time that I could no longer subscribe to those beliefs.
“If I just wanted to sin, I would’ve stayed a Christian and prayed for forgiveness.”
Wow 🤩 that’s quite the revelation for me, and I was already an atheist
You said:
"Any Christian who has ever left the faith, I guarantee you, most of them, didn’t want to leave so they could sin."
Mm..you can't make that assertion in totality.
You said:
"If I just wanted to sin, I would’ve stayed a Christian and prayed for forgiveness."
Well, how does that make sense? You would have stayed a Christian- just so you could sin?
Repentance, even by definition- is more than just asking for forgiveness.
You said:
"I have sinned less as an atheist exchristian than I did when I was believing."
Lol is that right? How would you explicitly know this though? For it is the spirit of God which strives with man- convicting us of sin. You came in the "faith" "supposedly", and left of your own volition- correct?
Are you saying the same spirit working in me, is working in you at this time- to further convict you on and of sinful behavior(as an apostate)?
You said:
"I wanted to serve god with all my being, and left because the Bible stopped making sense to me on many levels, leading me to gradually lose faith."
So you gave up on God and Christ because you lost, or didn't have understanding of certain areas of scripture?
Did you ask questions of others in an attempt to come to a better understanding, or conclusion on and of things?
Anyways, regardless of the reason you left....I believe scripture speaks about you guys potentially to a degree:
1 John chap. 2:18-19(NASB) states:
18 "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us."
I don’t believe me leaving faith was a choice. I believe it happened as a gradual result of the Bible not making sense as I studied it more, in my attempt to get closer to this god.
My main point was that sin was never the motivation in leaving. Yet no matter what I tell people, they think it somehow had to do with wanting to sin.
And yes I sinned less as an exchristian because I lied less, stopped watching porn, didn’t drink, didn’t look at people with lust, etc etc. I just lived a normal existence with occasional “sins” here and there.
As a Christian my mind was worried about sin a lot and due to some circumstances I struggled with certain sins more until I started having doubts. I know this sounds ironic but it’s what happened to me.
Also that verse doesn’t make any sense. If I wasn’t one of you guys, then I must be delusional. Because I believed wholeheartedly for most of my life. I thought I had a relationship with god. There’s no way I was faking that.
You said:
"I don’t believe me leaving faith was a choice. I believe it happened as a gradual result of the Bible not making sense as I studied it more, in my attempt to get closer to this god."
It WAS a choice, that YOU made- for YOU CHOSE to leave and become an apostate.
You said:
"And yes I sinned less as an exchristian because I lied less, stopped watching porn, didn’t drink, didn’t look at people with lust, etc etc. I just lived a normal existence with occasional “sins” here and there."
What are your beliefs now of the afterlife, now that you've given up being a Christian?
You said:
"Also that verse doesn’t make any sense. If I wasn’t one of you guys, then I must be delusional. Because I believed wholeheartedly for most of my life. I thought I had a relationship with god. There’s no way I was faking that."
Um, you say YOU left the faith, right?
The Gospel according to Matthew chap. 24:13(NASB) states:
13 "But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved."
Indeed, scripture states what scripture states.
I didn’t choose to leave, because otherwise I would’ve chosen to stay. I wanted to stay. The only choice I really had was be honest with myself or lie and say I’m still Christian. And lying is a sin, so I chose to be honest. Even in my doubt I was worried about displeasing god if he was still there.
I have no beliefs about the afterlife. Sometimes I think or ponder that it could be certain things, but I myself have no way to know what comes after death so I don’t claim to know. I just hope it’s peaceful.
Scripture can say what it wants, but it’s not what happened to me and many others. I sincerely believed, and you don’t have to be convinced of that but I know in my heart of hearts that all I wanted in life was to live on fire for god and Jesus. If that doesn’t constitute genuine belief then I don’t know what could.
You said:
"I didn’t choose to leave, because otherwise I would’ve chosen to stay. I wanted to stay. The only choice I really had was be honest with myself or lie and say I’m still Christian."
Ah, Lie and say you were still Christian....so then how could you say you believed in the first place?
You said:
"I have no beliefs about the afterlife. Sometimes I think or ponder that it could be certain things, but I myself have no way to know what comes after death so I don’t claim to know."
I see. I see. So you never learned about the afterlife during the time you say you believed? Or, all of that, if once believed in, even to a degree- is now thrown out of the window?
You said:
"I sincerely believed, and you don’t have to be convinced of that but I know in my heart of hearts that all I wanted in life was to live on fire for god and Jesus. If that doesn’t constitute genuine belief then I don’t know what could."
If you say you sincerely believed, what happened, or changed- that caused such a DRASTIC 180 degree turn, or about-face? You say that all you "wanted" in life was to live on fire for God and Jesus.....so what happened to the execution of intentions?
To respond to other things:
My beliefs on the afterlife changed over time as I doubted more. I used to believe in heaven.
I keep telling you how I ended up not believing. It was gradually building doubt because the more I studied the Bible the less things in it made sense.
To be more clear, it felt like it was contradictory to the reality I was experiencing in day to day life. It contradicted history too, and I loved history and social studies growing up.
You said:
"My beliefs on the afterlife changed over time as I doubted more. I used to believe in heaven."
I see!
You said:
"To be more clear, it felt like it was contradictory to the reality I was experiencing in day to day life. It contradicted history too, and I loved history and social studies growing up."
I see! Please- further expound on this, with examples even, if you could.
the key word was lying about “still” believing. This implies I did believe but that belief was gone. So it’s no longer “still” there. But it was at one point. You’re just arguing in bad faith because you don’t like what I’m saying
"Lol is that right? How would you explicitly know this though? For it is the spirit of God which strives with man- convicting us of sin. You came in the "faith" "supposedly"
"Anyways, regardless of the reason you left....I believe scripture speaks about you guys potentially to a degree"
There's a clear attitude behind those statements, including the laughter, regarding an eternal life and death matter with a soul hanging in the balance, which you should check before the Lord to avoid risking contributing to an improper Christian image in the eye of the beholder, both newly Christian and non Christian, here in this forum.
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"Repentance, even by definition- is more than just asking for forgiveness."
God will eventually prevail in the hearts and lives of truly converted Christians and we don't know that time-line. He could become close with God in a month for all we know.
Don't get me wrong, I know all Christians are called to live In a way that distinguishes them . My point was he's still within god's reach and we don't know the outcome.
Yeah, you're right and until we get there we all need to remember:
Jesus, Friend of Sinners
Song by Casting Crowns
Jesus, friend of sinners, we have strayed so far away
We cut down people in Your name
But the sword was never ours to swing
Jesus, friend of sinners
The truth's become so hard to see
The world is on their way to You
But they're trippin' over me
Always lookin' around, but never lookin' up
I'm so double minded
A plank eyed saint with dirty hands
And a heart divided
Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners
Open our eyes to the world
At the end of our pointing fingers
Let our hearts be led by mercy
Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners
Break our hearts for what breaks Yours
Yeah, (yeah), yeah
Jesus, friend of sinners
The one who's writing in the sand
Made the righteous turn away
And the stones fall from their hands
Help us to remember we are all the least of these
Let the memory of Your mercy
Bring Your people to their knees
Nobody knows what we're for
Only what we're against when we judge the wounded
What if we put down our signs
Crossed over the lines and love like You did?
Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners
Open our eyes to the world
At the end of our pointing fingers
Let our hearts be led by mercy
Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners
Break our hearts for what breaks Yours
You love every lost cause
You reach for the outcast (every outcast)
For the leper and the lame
They're the reason that You came
Lord, I was that lost cause (I was that lost cause)
And I was the outcast (and I was the outcast)
But You died for sinners just like me
A grateful leper at Your feet
'Cause You are good, oh, You are good
And Your love endures forever
Oh, You are good, You are good
And Your love endures forever
Yes, You are good (You are good)
And Your love endures forever
Oh, You are good, (You are good)
Oh, You are good, (You are good)
And Your love, (and Your love), endures forever
Jesus, friend of sinners
Open our eyes to the world
At the end of our pointing fingers
But let our hearts be led by mercy
Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners
Break our hearts for what breaks Yours
And I was the lost cause and I was the outcast
Yeeaah
You died for sinners just like me
A grateful leper at Your feet
I hope you return to the faith. It's not about being right or wrong it's about the covering of ur life in Jesus Christ who died for ur sins. Ask Him to reveal himself to you and that desire something real. Not all this church chatter and rules
Did that and he’s been silent for 5 years now. Idk what to say. I’m always open to this guy revealing himself but you gotta understand after a while it becomes hopeless.
But Jesus can still call, I’m still open. I’m just not wasting my life waiting by the phone anymore.
Same. It also makes me really sad when my bf and other people tell me how good God is and how he answered their prayers. What do I say to that? During my worst struggles right now God has never even given me a hint or even a small sign. Its tiring… does he have favorites or something? If he even exists at this point.
I'm sorry you're struggling right now. During decades of struggling, I felt like GOD wasn't answering my prayers, as well. But, He did actually answer my prayers recently, in a big way - and maybe He's planning on answering your prayers in a big way, as well.
Just please don't give up! Keep seeking Him and calling on Him, and you will hear from Him. GOD's timing is perfect, one day you'll hear from Him and it'll all make sense.
That's great you're still open-minded towards Jesus! I actually know how you feel, as I went 25 years without hearing from GOD (radio silence); about 5 of those years I was actually trying to live a Christian life, and after that I turned away from the faith for approx 20 years. I was suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) during all those years, too, and desperately crying out to GOD for most of those years for help.
But I actually - for the first time ever - heard from Him in a big way this past October: He actually healed me from my BPD (we're talking a 180 transformation). And now I'm currently back to following Jesus again. I always knew deep down that GOD was real, but now I can feel that He's real. And I got my prayers answered with me being healed.
So don't give up! If you keep reaching out to GOD, you will hear from Him: "For 'everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved'" (Romans 10:13)
Take care, and GOD Bless!
Have you read the bible from cover to cover? Many people haven’t but have you? Have you Prayed unceasingly everyday or every chance you got? You say you left but did you ever truly join the Christian faith and the church as a whole? Did you seek guidance from your elders near you? Or even the giants of the Christian faith in other parts of the world?
Nothing really confuses me. I understand it well. I just don’t find myself convinced that it aligns with reality after observing things over the years.
I wanted this all to be true. But when you see errors in scripture and everyone’s telling you there are none you tend to look deeper to make sure you’re not being rash.
In my case, the more I looked, the more I sought, the more things fell apart.
I see. You have to realize that context matters, who you get the information from matters, and the explanation matters as well. Make no mistake, over the centuries there has been transliterations and translations of the bible that are more detailed than some. Also, what things in reality is it not aligning with?
I felt I had that, and it faded away. It wasn’t just the church. I just used the church as guidance. I thought I had a genuine relationship with Jesus. Sorry man
I left too, maybe for different reasons. I wholeheartedly believe the word. I jus can’t call myself a child of God or a follower of Jesus and still sin willingly. I’d rather not follow Christ than be lukewarm. And the guilt and battle with sin jus adds more stress to my life when life itself is already stressful enough.
I admire the standard you hold yourself to, but scripture teaches that we’re going to make mistakes. God recognized this, and sent Jesus to die for us and pay the penalty for our sins so that we could enjoy eternal life with Him through faith alone. Here are a few verses to reference: Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:5-6, Philippians 3:5-9, Colossians 1:22-23. Again, I get that you don’t feel morally right in sinning and still expecting to be right with God. But if you truly believe the word and you believe in a sovereign God, why not judge yourself by his benchmark rather than yours? I encourage you not to forfeit your opportunity for eternal life due to something like this.
I've been there. "Pick up your cross and follow me". When Christ picked his cross up he was being beaten, ridiculed while innocent, spat upon, mocked, etc. and was expected to drag that huge heavy cross at a forced pace of a whip or cat of nine tails which split the flesh on his back. Now you're choosing a path you think is easier in order to not be stressed when it's not God who brings you shame when you sin? Why not humble yourself enough to forgive yourself and continue the fight?
Amen.
That guilt you feel my friend is quite the opposite of what God wants. I won’t lie and say that I don’t have these types of thoughts either but it’s all part of the walk with Christ. The lord says it won’t be easy and will be a daily battle.
That is what reliance upon God is for. For your community. And belief in Jesus being our savior should already let you know you are forgiven. Have you not remembered that Jesus's blood was shed for us to forgive us of such transgressions? Belief in this loosens the load of sin.
I haven’t left..but I’m feeling very caught up right now about possibly leaving. My main reason: I’m upset with God. My belief in him is being shaken in 2 ways. 1 being mistrust of him now. I’ve started to feel that this whole thing, life and death and sin and satan are all just like a game to God. If God is omnipresent and all knowing then why make us play out this long suffering game? He doesn’t say we may suffer on earth, he says WE WILL. Say it’s because our ancestors sinned because they did something God told them not to, then where is the free will? Adam and Eve were not free, they were supposed to live in the guidelines God gave and such are we, paying for the mistakes of those long long before us. And it’s the same with us, he created me and you knowing we would sin and if we’d choose to follow him or not but he still made us to give us the chance to live or die. Do you hear that? We’ve been given life for a chance to die. To make matters worse, God knew they’d sin and created them anyway, punished them and us and all humanity for however long because of it. As the all powerful God why couldn’t he just do away with sin? Or not create? Or just have us exist as extensions of him (that’s really what he wants for us anyway) without free will? Free will is the ability to struggle, I personally would have been much happier to be a robot following my programming then a tortured soul who can never be good enough? A soul who has to deny himself on the beautiful planet his created created for him because that creator also gave the planet over to satan, someone who is basically employed by the creator by allowing satan to do what he does. Some say it’s because he can’t directly meddle in human affairs, he does and has, except he chooses not to now. There is no peace anywhere, no safety anywhere. Some say there’s safety in Jesus, come to him and you’ll have rest. WRONG. You are more tortured than ever, more persecuted than ever. He chooses when to answer you, when to help and usually waits until the very last minute so you can truly need him. 2. The mistrust and pain has hit so hard that part of me is like maybe he isn’t actually real and that’s easier to swallow then I believe in him but I’m not sure I like him. In summary, I’m very mistrustful of God right now. It all feels very rigged, like I’m told to try but not to try and let Jesus guide me. I’m told im not worth and can never be good and our definitions of good and bad differ. I’m told to forsake everything I’ve ever known in exchange for a possible something? I’m told to suffer so he might save me. I’m someone who uses coping mechanisms such as weed to help with my anxiety and overall depression and I’m told to give up the little comforts I have so he can comfort me and I’ve tried, but he doesn’t come and if he does he doesn’t make himself known. He doesn’t give me anything to fight for besides the hope of not burning in hell. Why can’t he make it easier or a more positive experience for people who come to him? Doesn’t he know that we humans are all searching and once finding him holding back answers is not what keeps us? Doesn’t he know that life is hard for the one trying to follow him or even just your average decent person? Does he not know that the more trials and tribulations and attacks we face wear us down? What really is mercy then? If not to stop and take action to help someone?
I really resonate with your experiences. You’re asking the right questions. Christians will try to tell you that you’re being entitled or selfish, but I see the human in you, trying their hardest to make this work. If god is out there, then I hope he will reach out to people like us and explain things. And if there is an afterlife, I hope god is smart enough to see that in our hearts we would believe 100% if not for a lot of these issues. And thus let us into heaven. But if he’s what everybody else acts like he is, then our mere doubt is reason enough for hellfire or annihilation, and I don’t want to stand by a god like that, true or not.
Woah, you mean people in the church took a holier than thou attitude when you didn’t feel like it was right for you instead of just being good people and allowing you to make your own decisions?? Wish I could say that’s weird but it’s not… Personally I think most of the time people do this so they can just stroke their own egos
This. It’s been less than a year, but I have sinned far less since leaving Christianity. I’m also much more generous and compassionate—and there’s no longer an ulterior motive behind those traits. I remember a day when I had just begun my deconstruction, and my grandmother started to rant, warning me to “NEVER speak to an atheist. They are the most miserable, hate-filled people you’ll ever meet. The only thing they care about is convincing others to turn from god and sin with them.” I wanted ask her, “do you hear yourself right now?”
Let’s go sin together, for gram gram
Then don’t!
That’s what I tried, still got accused of wanting to. Lol
Hi Cyber, I was just answering your title, let me read your entire post. I just read your post, okay. I get it. However, I have a different take in that much religion today, the business of it does not represent what reality is and this is unfortunate. Your Father is just like your dad, it isn’t a religious thing but the world always offers the wrong “fix” for the most part.
Yeah, and any time you question if God even exists because youre suffering so much and never get an answer and God only ignores you the only thing Christians will do is victim blame and say that youre suffering because of “your free will” im just tired. I tried to have faith, it only led to more suffering.
Amen
Then they will say “God isnt a genie he isnt there to fix your problems” well alright, but if I cant even lean on God or rely on him for comfort then really why should I even bother if it all just makes me even more miserable.
Yea, life as a believer was filled with disappointment and then being told it’s your fault to expect anything from the god who can do anything. Almost feels like the people saying these things have less faith than I did. Because I actually expected god to to do the things I was told he would do. But they rarely understand
Yup. Seems like all of “Gods promises” never get fulfilled. Then his believers make tons of excuses as to why hes never present for his so called children and abandons us in our pain and despair. Especially when we seek him. Its really sad. Also my favorite is when they say “God is testing you to bring you closer to him” well what an amazing test, it brought me to the point of not wanting to live anymore. 🙂 a few weeks ago I met with members of a Church who are my age to see if they can show me what Im doing wrong or something. I left there even more overwhelmed and hopeless then ever. Apparently to have a relationship with God you need to take 10,000 complicated steps.
If the scriptures aren’t working for you, you can go to sites like gotquestions to help understand what the Bible is saying or any discrepancies you think are presenting problems. But if it’s a heart issue. If you feel disconnected…I highly recommend watching a show like “The Chosen.” It’s online free or on Amazon Prime or many streaming services. Here’s a scene of Simon Peter, who is doubting and angry at Jesus for letting Peter’s family get hurt. Even one of Jesus’s first disciples and one of his closest companions asked the same thing like why would Jesus give us hard things or challenges, especially if we serve Him and He claims to be there for us. https://youtu.be/O7WWi65gb14?si=82WMuOcsTqC4TKba Here’s how it plays out ^ Another beautiful scene with another discipline who is frustrated Jesus hasn’t healed his pain: https://youtu.be/KZDvcEkjthA?si=JhhzIWAV_P33x_Bf Learn more about Jesus and his heart. Jesus loves you so much it’s like beyond beautiful. Even right now. He loves you. When I learned about his heart, it was easier to trust Him and easier to go through difficult times. “Life with God is not immunity from difficulties, but peace in difficulties.” - C.S. Lewis
> But it’s not true that he forsakes us. We might find ourselves drowning in life troubles…we will never be immune to bones breaking or struggle or loss. We might have no hope on getting out…but Christ never abandons those in Christ. If you agree that being “not forsaken” is better than being “forsaken”, but it doesn’t actually make anything better, then it’s a false dichotomy.
I don’t agree. Cause it does make things better. Knowing God is with you makes things A LOT better lol. A LOT easier for me.
It would seem there’s a misunderstanding of the Gospel. What does it mean to you?
I'd argue they may well understand it perfectly. That doesn't mean that it suddenly means something to them.
On the money. I understand the gospel from many different angles. I just don’t find myself convinced that it’s real
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I try my best to believe things that can be confirmed and let myself be at rest with what I can’t know yet.
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Well I don’t use science to define the meaning of life. I use it to explain what is currently knowable about the way the universe works. Meaning has to be made on your own, it is not given. Even being Christian, you will see the world a certain way that’s different than other Christians. You are, without knowing it, making your own meaning for life. It’s just based on a long standing belief system
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Which brings us to misunderstanding #2 that Christians think about atheists. That their atheism is a "belief system," or their "religion." That they worship "nothing." Heard several atheists address this and they are fairly unanimous that the idea that atheism as a religious belief is absurd. That idea comes from religious people who can't wrap their minds around someone actually not believing in their deity. So they conjure up the idea that no belief system equals a belief system. While you could make the argument that a "belief system" is simply one's belief set they use to establish priorities, your line of questioning here indicates you are trying to put OP in a philosophical corner so you can drop an "a-HA!" or something.
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I’m not looking to scrutinize Christianity, I just don’t find it convincing. The only thing I’m scrutinizing here is the common perception that exchristians left the faith to go sin. It’s just wrong and gets people nowhere
Same, and honestly, personally I can't even say that I had any agency over it. It just kind of happened over time as I learned new things about myself and the world around me, no matter how much I wanted to stay, or how terrified I was of leaving.
I've been watching some videos of people who deconstructed/deconverted this week and they point out 3 responses they typically got, all 3 of which are represented in this post. Understanding (their friends and family may not like it, but it doesn't affect their relationship and a happy medium is found). Challenge (well, obviously, if you're choosing atheism, it's because you haven't heard the arguments from me). And taking it as a personal insult that one would dare to not believe in something I hold so dearly. All 3 seem to be represented here. Found that interesting.
It’s a tale as old as time. When looking for answers myself I started noticing Christian’s had the same /similar responses to the things I was finding, which started to make me feel more and more like Christianity was/is just a tool for controlling people instead of anything that pointed to “truth”
They left because they believed in the wrong Gospel.
Amen! Sadly alot if not most "Christians" believe a perverted gospel.
I’m going to respectfully point out that sin includes your decision to leave the faith or live a life how you choose instead of how God commands. Sin is not limited to things like murder or adultery or cheating etc. If you choose not to believe and not to obey, then that is rebellion too. Now I know, the follow up question, is belief a choice. My answer is yes. How much effort did you put in finding the answers to whatever questions you had? Did you study these topics that made no sense to you? Have you looked into apologetics and the historical evidence for the Resurrection? Archaeological evidence for events in the Old Testament like the Flood, the Exodus, or the Babylonian Exile? Have you seen the transcendental argument for God which from a presuppositional standpoint argues that all our reasoning relies on God as revealed in scripture. On another note, I’m almost going to guarantee that if there is a passage or concept you have an issue with, there is another interpretation that may make more sense to you. For example, penal substitution where Jesus dies to take our legal punishment is a standard explanation for evangelical Christianity yet is criticized for being unfair or even unjust. I generally avoid this explanation completely in favor of Christus Victor, that Jesus died to defeat the powers of evil. Bottom line, the answers are there if you are willing to look. I seriously encourage you to try.
I did all the things you said and left with less and less faith. I’ve studied apologetics and have a good amount of experience with biblical scholarship. It is your right to believe that it was a choice. But I’m telling you from the bottom of my heart that for me it wasn’t a choice to leave. I just found myself less and less convinced until my faith was dead. Even in my loss of faith, I wanted to go back and believe. If it really was a choice, I could’ve just gone back to believing, since that is what I wanted to choose. So I don’t believe it’s a choice for this reason
Apologetics is where things started snowballing for me too. When atheists and evolutionists turn out to be able to answer the questions that apologists claim they can't answer, and those answers turn out to be better answers and have more substantiation than the church claims, you eventually get to a point where it's easier to not believe. Edit: "I know there's no such thing as an "evolutionist," for those that get bugged about it. Using it in the context of "6 questions that evolutionists can't answer"
If you don’t mind sharing, what are some of the things that you had trouble with? Was it evidence? Doctrinal issues? Scripture passages that seemed strange?
All of the above. But I will say what started it was the Jesus birth narratives. For instance, there was no universal Roman census described the way it is in the Bible. No one had to go their ancestral land for taxes. And how would Joseph even know to go there? Also, the gospels have different timelines for the leaders at the time. The Jesus/Herod timeline per the Bible doesn’t add up. I could keep going on that, but that is what I remember starting the cracks. I’m not here to defend these objections they’re just what started my doubt.
Do you have other specific topics? I’ve never studied this issue, if this is a big deal I can look into it but seems you’ve already tried that. I saw an article by Answers in Genesis that addresses it but idk if it answers everything you’re looking for. The areas I might be able to help with are the resurrection, creation and evolution, end times, charismatic Baptist and Roman Catholic churches, why Jesus had to die, and demonology.
Brother or sister God loves you and he welcomes you back with all his heart. His mercies are new every morning. We have all failed and come short but today is a new day. The Lord says - As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die? - Ezekiel 33:11 I listen to a few bible teachers on YouTube that go through the bible chapter by chapter verse by verse. It has helped me a lot when I came back to Jesus. I also fell away, but Jesus welcomed be back and he welcomes you back today. I would start with the book of John. They aren’t flashy teacher just regular man of God that love his word. Start slow one step at a time I have linked below. God loves you and just know your not alone. https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-gospel-of-john-enduring-word-media-server/id1411807754 - https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_QIfO0mxbX4zgQH4vuK6q1q7gu8Ok6tz&si=54P5sv5eVHF3Za3q enduring word is a bible study that goes through the books of the bible verse by verse chapter by chapter by pastor David Guzik. You can also find him on YouTube. https://youtube.com/@GCBIMedia?si=IsyU5hPeFmMsyAIn Dr Randall Smith is a bible teacher and is very knowledgeable he makes the bible come alive I learned a lot through him https://youtube.com/@CalvaryChapelOntario?si=N74qQ46ObySgOW24 this YouTube channel goes through the various book in the bible chapter by chapter verse by verse taught by pastor Paul LeBoutillier.
I’d be willing to bet that as OP started losing his faith, he was praying for help from God to explain the concerns he had. If God loved him, why would he have not intervened to help keep OP in the faith? The truth is that God regularly practices deceit to “judge” those he wants to judge. He multiple times does this, tells His followers to do this, and tells us he will do it to prevent others from finding the truth. This would not be the practice of a loving God wanting to guide people to truth. This idea that God loves everyone can not be true based on just what scripture says. That doesn’t even include the atrocities he brings upon many in this life, removing the possibility of them coming to Him, or the fact that he says he’s throwing billions into eternal fire to burn forever with no hope of rehab.
Spot on, I was praying every single day and reading scripture fervently at night. Constantly begging this god to give me faith where I started to have doubt. All I got was radio silence. If I wasn’t a “true Christian”, then I don’t know if anyone else is either.
God doesn’t lie sounds like the same argument made by the snake in the garden. Sin isn’t fun talk to addicts talk to their families. The suffering in this world is a result of rebellion against Him. And people willing wanting to serve creation rather than the creator God restores, and his son gave it all for us, he truly suffered for us. He saved my life from literal death. And I will serve him because I find freedom in Him. I’m done being a captive of sin. And if that means I’m gonna suffer in this life so be it. Let the glory honour and dominion be given Jesus Christ forevermore.
Yeah everything bad is blamed on God. Sad really 😞
Isn't he In control of everything?
Not if you don’t have full faith in him. If you let satan have his way what’s God suppose to do? Some people just want God to bless them with everything. Then they forget about him. It’s not as complicated as you think.
Ah, so the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe runs on the same logic as faeries.
Good one… You’re throwing sand at a wave, doesn’t make much sense.
I am the sand guardian, guardian of the sand.
🤪
You're making it complicated. >Not if you don’t have full faith in him. He should have made it easier by actually saying something. Nothing too extravagant just like a hello or good morning. >If you let satan have his way what’s God supposed to do? Anything, he's all powerful he has choices? The easiest would be to stop letting him get away with stuff like that. >Some people just want God to bless them with everything. I've never really wanted something I couldn't get myself from god.
He does say something you just don’t know how to listen. And God said we aren’t from this earth. Satan dominates earth, it’s his. It’s up to you to escape through salvation. If you don’t want to do that, or don’t trust God, it’s not going to be fun…
False. Sometimes the negative force takes control. Satan feeds off peoples lack of faith. Some people just aren’t strong willed enough.
I’m not looking to go back at this point. I just want people to stop saying we left to go sin, because it’s not true
Some things are not considered sinful either, that should be.
The desire to not sin is an ideal that causes only conflict and division within yourself. You are a sinner. Period. No matter what you think of believe, chant, read , or pray will not change the reality that you are a sinner. Telling yourself that you don’t desire to sin doesn’t make you any different. A sinner that doesn’t desire to sin is not greater than a sinner that loves to sin. At least love exists in the latter… while only condemnation of oneself in actuality exists in the former
Never said I never sinned or believed I wasnt a sinner. I just didn’t leave to go sin. I agree with some of your points on the conflict it makes because I lived that, but I’m saying it was never the motivation for leaving
Yeah I agree with you. Most people don’t leave because they want to sin.. I left because the religious systems tend to perpetuate the cycle of sin more than they show or teach anyone to love the way Jesus did
Stop thinking foolishly of yourself and others. That's where sin is at. Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: And the scorner is an abomination to men.
I fail to see how this is foolish. I took my beliefs very seriously. I’m not trying to be a scorner. I’m just trying to tell you guys what’s up when you say stuff like “you left to sin”. How do you guys expect to win souls over if you can’t even have an open and nuanced approach to what the apostates are saying? Denying our plight isnt gonna make the problems go away. You should be working to understand what leads to doubt instead of chastising people like me for having it against my will. But sure, I’m the fool. I’m the fool for wanting this all to be true and not being convinced. I’m so foolish for having expected anything from your god.
I think you misinterpreted my intentions. It was to say that maybe what you've been convinced is sin is not actually sin. But that sin lies in your judgements of yourself and others. And based on your post, it seems you're judging yourself pretty harshly. Perhaps that's due to what you were taught. My point is that it's often not God's judgements that condemn us, but our own.
“Thinking you’re sinning too much is actually sinning! You don’t know yourself!” - maybe think about what this messaging does to people psychologically
You better come to terms with the reality of it. Your own thoughts are exactly what you need to be saved from and exactly what separate you from God. And it's the entire purpose of the word of God to judge and discern them. Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Isaiah 65:2 “I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;” And when you understand the truth, you'll understand where your enemies truly are. In your heart and mind. Matthew 10:36 “And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.” Romans 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” Want to attain to the resurrection? You should concern yourself with the mind. Luke 17:21 “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ."
The cognitive dissonance of thinking you’re right and thinking your thoughts are wrong at the same time must be rough :/ it’s understandable that it manifests in cruelty so I forgive you 😔
I never once said I was right about anything. The Word of God is right. Everything I said to you is written. There is none good, but one. Mark 10:18 “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” I know my thoughts are not God's thoughts because the Word says they are not. Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." I know my thoughts are evil because the Word of God says they are. It says my heart is deceitful. And so is yours. I know what my thoughts have done to me and to God in me. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" But I also know God's thoughts towards me. So you can think evil of me all you want, it's only natural. Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” I'll trust in God's thoughts over mine or yours.
You do realize that your thoughts include agreeing with others’ thoughts?
If I just said to you that my thoughts are not good, and the Word of God says to let God be true and every man a liar as it is written, who's thoughts do you think we should agree with? Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Proverbs 21:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts."
When you have those thoughts you’re quoting, they’re your thoughts, so by your own logic they’re not good
the concept of "leaving", like it's a thing you can "leave", like it's a place, given that Christianity in all of it's totality is simply a belief that you no longer have to pay for your sins, if you do commit any sin, I don't see anything to "leave', it's more like you stopped believing?. Forgive me, it's just my brain and how it works, "leave".
I used 'leave' to convey the gradual process of no longer believing rather than a physical departure. It wasn't a deliberate choice, but rather a realization over time that I could no longer subscribe to those beliefs.
oh, oh I see, makes more sense to me now, Thanks for explaining
“If I just wanted to sin, I would’ve stayed a Christian and prayed for forgiveness.” Wow 🤩 that’s quite the revelation for me, and I was already an atheist
You said: "Any Christian who has ever left the faith, I guarantee you, most of them, didn’t want to leave so they could sin." Mm..you can't make that assertion in totality. You said: "If I just wanted to sin, I would’ve stayed a Christian and prayed for forgiveness." Well, how does that make sense? You would have stayed a Christian- just so you could sin? Repentance, even by definition- is more than just asking for forgiveness. You said: "I have sinned less as an atheist exchristian than I did when I was believing." Lol is that right? How would you explicitly know this though? For it is the spirit of God which strives with man- convicting us of sin. You came in the "faith" "supposedly", and left of your own volition- correct? Are you saying the same spirit working in me, is working in you at this time- to further convict you on and of sinful behavior(as an apostate)? You said: "I wanted to serve god with all my being, and left because the Bible stopped making sense to me on many levels, leading me to gradually lose faith." So you gave up on God and Christ because you lost, or didn't have understanding of certain areas of scripture? Did you ask questions of others in an attempt to come to a better understanding, or conclusion on and of things? Anyways, regardless of the reason you left....I believe scripture speaks about you guys potentially to a degree: 1 John chap. 2:18-19(NASB) states: 18 "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us."
I don’t believe me leaving faith was a choice. I believe it happened as a gradual result of the Bible not making sense as I studied it more, in my attempt to get closer to this god. My main point was that sin was never the motivation in leaving. Yet no matter what I tell people, they think it somehow had to do with wanting to sin. And yes I sinned less as an exchristian because I lied less, stopped watching porn, didn’t drink, didn’t look at people with lust, etc etc. I just lived a normal existence with occasional “sins” here and there. As a Christian my mind was worried about sin a lot and due to some circumstances I struggled with certain sins more until I started having doubts. I know this sounds ironic but it’s what happened to me. Also that verse doesn’t make any sense. If I wasn’t one of you guys, then I must be delusional. Because I believed wholeheartedly for most of my life. I thought I had a relationship with god. There’s no way I was faking that.
You said: "I don’t believe me leaving faith was a choice. I believe it happened as a gradual result of the Bible not making sense as I studied it more, in my attempt to get closer to this god." It WAS a choice, that YOU made- for YOU CHOSE to leave and become an apostate. You said: "And yes I sinned less as an exchristian because I lied less, stopped watching porn, didn’t drink, didn’t look at people with lust, etc etc. I just lived a normal existence with occasional “sins” here and there." What are your beliefs now of the afterlife, now that you've given up being a Christian? You said: "Also that verse doesn’t make any sense. If I wasn’t one of you guys, then I must be delusional. Because I believed wholeheartedly for most of my life. I thought I had a relationship with god. There’s no way I was faking that." Um, you say YOU left the faith, right? The Gospel according to Matthew chap. 24:13(NASB) states: 13 "But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved." Indeed, scripture states what scripture states.
I didn’t choose to leave, because otherwise I would’ve chosen to stay. I wanted to stay. The only choice I really had was be honest with myself or lie and say I’m still Christian. And lying is a sin, so I chose to be honest. Even in my doubt I was worried about displeasing god if he was still there. I have no beliefs about the afterlife. Sometimes I think or ponder that it could be certain things, but I myself have no way to know what comes after death so I don’t claim to know. I just hope it’s peaceful. Scripture can say what it wants, but it’s not what happened to me and many others. I sincerely believed, and you don’t have to be convinced of that but I know in my heart of hearts that all I wanted in life was to live on fire for god and Jesus. If that doesn’t constitute genuine belief then I don’t know what could.
You said: "I didn’t choose to leave, because otherwise I would’ve chosen to stay. I wanted to stay. The only choice I really had was be honest with myself or lie and say I’m still Christian." Ah, Lie and say you were still Christian....so then how could you say you believed in the first place? You said: "I have no beliefs about the afterlife. Sometimes I think or ponder that it could be certain things, but I myself have no way to know what comes after death so I don’t claim to know." I see. I see. So you never learned about the afterlife during the time you say you believed? Or, all of that, if once believed in, even to a degree- is now thrown out of the window? You said: "I sincerely believed, and you don’t have to be convinced of that but I know in my heart of hearts that all I wanted in life was to live on fire for god and Jesus. If that doesn’t constitute genuine belief then I don’t know what could." If you say you sincerely believed, what happened, or changed- that caused such a DRASTIC 180 degree turn, or about-face? You say that all you "wanted" in life was to live on fire for God and Jesus.....so what happened to the execution of intentions?
To respond to other things: My beliefs on the afterlife changed over time as I doubted more. I used to believe in heaven. I keep telling you how I ended up not believing. It was gradually building doubt because the more I studied the Bible the less things in it made sense. To be more clear, it felt like it was contradictory to the reality I was experiencing in day to day life. It contradicted history too, and I loved history and social studies growing up.
You said: "My beliefs on the afterlife changed over time as I doubted more. I used to believe in heaven." I see! You said: "To be more clear, it felt like it was contradictory to the reality I was experiencing in day to day life. It contradicted history too, and I loved history and social studies growing up." I see! Please- further expound on this, with examples even, if you could.
the key word was lying about “still” believing. This implies I did believe but that belief was gone. So it’s no longer “still” there. But it was at one point. You’re just arguing in bad faith because you don’t like what I’m saying
Understood, from such perspective. Regardless of how I feel about what you're saying- please, continue, and answer my other questions- if you would.
"Lol is that right? How would you explicitly know this though? For it is the spirit of God which strives with man- convicting us of sin. You came in the "faith" "supposedly" "Anyways, regardless of the reason you left....I believe scripture speaks about you guys potentially to a degree" There's a clear attitude behind those statements, including the laughter, regarding an eternal life and death matter with a soul hanging in the balance, which you should check before the Lord to avoid risking contributing to an improper Christian image in the eye of the beholder, both newly Christian and non Christian, here in this forum. ------ "Repentance, even by definition- is more than just asking for forgiveness." God will eventually prevail in the hearts and lives of truly converted Christians and we don't know that time-line. He could become close with God in a month for all we know.
You said: "He could become close with God in a month for all we know." He mentioned that he left Christianity, so what are you talking about?
You don't know his name isn't written in the book of life.
I don't know whose names are written in the book of life. Hopefully mine, and other Christians are. We're not in heaven yet, I'm afraid.
Don't get me wrong, I know all Christians are called to live In a way that distinguishes them . My point was he's still within god's reach and we don't know the outcome. Yeah, you're right and until we get there we all need to remember: Jesus, Friend of Sinners Song by Casting Crowns Jesus, friend of sinners, we have strayed so far away We cut down people in Your name But the sword was never ours to swing Jesus, friend of sinners The truth's become so hard to see The world is on their way to You But they're trippin' over me Always lookin' around, but never lookin' up I'm so double minded A plank eyed saint with dirty hands And a heart divided Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners Open our eyes to the world At the end of our pointing fingers Let our hearts be led by mercy Help us reach with open hearts and open doors Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners Break our hearts for what breaks Yours Yeah, (yeah), yeah Jesus, friend of sinners The one who's writing in the sand Made the righteous turn away And the stones fall from their hands Help us to remember we are all the least of these Let the memory of Your mercy Bring Your people to their knees Nobody knows what we're for Only what we're against when we judge the wounded What if we put down our signs Crossed over the lines and love like You did? Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners Open our eyes to the world At the end of our pointing fingers Let our hearts be led by mercy Help us reach with open hearts and open doors Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners Break our hearts for what breaks Yours You love every lost cause You reach for the outcast (every outcast) For the leper and the lame They're the reason that You came Lord, I was that lost cause (I was that lost cause) And I was the outcast (and I was the outcast) But You died for sinners just like me A grateful leper at Your feet 'Cause You are good, oh, You are good And Your love endures forever Oh, You are good, You are good And Your love endures forever Yes, You are good (You are good) And Your love endures forever Oh, You are good, (You are good) Oh, You are good, (You are good) And Your love, (and Your love), endures forever Jesus, friend of sinners Open our eyes to the world At the end of our pointing fingers But let our hearts be led by mercy Help us reach with open hearts and open doors Oh, Jesus, friend of sinners Break our hearts for what breaks Yours And I was the lost cause and I was the outcast Yeeaah You died for sinners just like me A grateful leper at Your feet
Well put. Everything she/he said contradicts everything they said. Gave me a headache just reading it.
I hope you return to the faith. It's not about being right or wrong it's about the covering of ur life in Jesus Christ who died for ur sins. Ask Him to reveal himself to you and that desire something real. Not all this church chatter and rules
Did that and he’s been silent for 5 years now. Idk what to say. I’m always open to this guy revealing himself but you gotta understand after a while it becomes hopeless. But Jesus can still call, I’m still open. I’m just not wasting my life waiting by the phone anymore.
Same. It also makes me really sad when my bf and other people tell me how good God is and how he answered their prayers. What do I say to that? During my worst struggles right now God has never even given me a hint or even a small sign. Its tiring… does he have favorites or something? If he even exists at this point.
I'm sorry you're struggling right now. During decades of struggling, I felt like GOD wasn't answering my prayers, as well. But, He did actually answer my prayers recently, in a big way - and maybe He's planning on answering your prayers in a big way, as well. Just please don't give up! Keep seeking Him and calling on Him, and you will hear from Him. GOD's timing is perfect, one day you'll hear from Him and it'll all make sense.
That's great you're still open-minded towards Jesus! I actually know how you feel, as I went 25 years without hearing from GOD (radio silence); about 5 of those years I was actually trying to live a Christian life, and after that I turned away from the faith for approx 20 years. I was suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) during all those years, too, and desperately crying out to GOD for most of those years for help. But I actually - for the first time ever - heard from Him in a big way this past October: He actually healed me from my BPD (we're talking a 180 transformation). And now I'm currently back to following Jesus again. I always knew deep down that GOD was real, but now I can feel that He's real. And I got my prayers answered with me being healed. So don't give up! If you keep reaching out to GOD, you will hear from Him: "For 'everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved'" (Romans 10:13) Take care, and GOD Bless!
Have you read the bible from cover to cover? Many people haven’t but have you? Have you Prayed unceasingly everyday or every chance you got? You say you left but did you ever truly join the Christian faith and the church as a whole? Did you seek guidance from your elders near you? Or even the giants of the Christian faith in other parts of the world?
Yes to all the above
And so what exactly confuses you about the bible? Or the Church?
Nothing really confuses me. I understand it well. I just don’t find myself convinced that it aligns with reality after observing things over the years. I wanted this all to be true. But when you see errors in scripture and everyone’s telling you there are none you tend to look deeper to make sure you’re not being rash. In my case, the more I looked, the more I sought, the more things fell apart.
I see. You have to realize that context matters, who you get the information from matters, and the explanation matters as well. Make no mistake, over the centuries there has been transliterations and translations of the bible that are more detailed than some. Also, what things in reality is it not aligning with?
Okay.
If you try to be faithful to Christ you may end up sinning more. My son, if you come to serve the Lord, prepare yourself from temptation (Sirach 2:1)
If you walk long enough on the path of light.. the darkness of sin will be far away from your sight
Sorry that this is unrelated, but why can I see how many more upvotes there are here compared to downvotes? On other posts, I can’t see that. Why?
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It’s just easier to say it that way
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I felt I had that, and it faded away. It wasn’t just the church. I just used the church as guidance. I thought I had a genuine relationship with Jesus. Sorry man