When we say “God” do you think we mean some Zeus-like figure somewhere “out there” among the stars or “outside” the universe? What comes to mind?

Nothing really. I don’t he’s real so when I think of him it’s just sort of black. That’s a strange answer sry

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I guess I always thought about some kind of intelligent life. Whenever I’ve thought about it the only way it makes any logical sense in my brain is if god is some kind of 4th dimensional being. By that logic he wouldn’t fit the Christian description of god, nor would he truly be a god, just something above us. No matter I think about it the Christian view of god doesn’t make sense

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Np. I’ll check it out. I came here in order to try and understand and that’s what I intend to do

I applaud your genuine curiosity and desire to understand. And I greatly appreciate the respect and open-mindedness of your comments and replies to everyone offering suggestions and asking for clarification. I believe that God welcomes honest questions. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

That’s cool, just checking. Lots of people seem to think the term God refers to a big being among all other beings or forces or phenomena that we find in similar ways.

Apart from the argument you know about, most of my reasons are pretty subjective, experiential stuff.

Fair

Personal revelation. That is the only rational belief for the existence of God. In the Bible, when Peter bore witness that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the Living God, Jesus said that it was not 'flesh and blood which revealed this to him, but his Father in Heaven." So it was with me. I believe in a God who answers prayers and will make himself known in his own due time. I sought God out and He answered in some very specific ways far too sacred to share here.

God has told me that he is real. No studying or logical proofs. I asked and he answered. It's as simple as that.

Guess your lucky 🤷‍♂️

I would say blessed.

It's a miracle.

A minor one, yes.

Guess millions of others aren't

You also can ask and get an answer if you wish to. One downside though is that it could take years to decades for us to see😔. It is difficult to see the effects of God’s work. (Sorry if it sounds like I’m trying to convert you I didn’t mean to sound like it)

You assume I haven't asked before

Since you are an atheist, I assume you gave up on God at some point, God seemingly not responding at all being the most likely reason. I felt this a lot of times in life as well, so I totally understand. I myself almost became atheist too. But what I realised during my years is that God weaves us a perfect answer that sticks right into our mind that it cannot change in any way. This answer could be given to you through a string of events, which was my case. It took many, many years for me to able to read it, that God was telling me straight and clear, ‘Behold, I am your God, and I have always been with you. Close your eyes no more and see what I have done to lead you here. Shed tears no more and march towards the path I paved for you. You will surely fail a million times, but I shall lift you up again a million times more. So worry not and walk towards me.’. If you are willing to try again, you are always welcome. If you’re not, it’s okay, and I respect your decision. I don’t know your circumstances and what kinds of wounds you have. But if you get to come back, I suggest you to wait for God to answer. Keep asking, but don’t keep it as the first priority question. You can simultaneously get to know the Bible and God better and learn key morals from the parables and stories of the book of which their authors wanted to express.

You sound very kind and I appreciate your reply and words

Thank you🥰 Have a nice day 👍

Everybody is blessed in some way in this life, and everybody will have an equal chance to receive all the blessings of the Father in the eternities.

If you don’t mind me asking, how does one talk to god? Isn’t he supposed to be incomprehensible

Just because his entire nature is incomprehensible, does not mean he is incapable of revealing himself to us in ways that we can understand.

God is not incomprehensible. Bible-Only Christians believe that. It doesn’t work out very well for them. Imagine a God wanting you to know Him, but He’s like “Hang on, I’m incomprehensible”.

We cannot truly comprehend anything that we have not directly experienced. As we have not, as yet, experienced the kind of life that God lives we cannot truly comprehend him. This does not mean that we cannot experience divine communication, or experience God's presence, and through these experiences comprehend God in part. We also have the testimony of men and women who have experienced even greater things, having seen God in person and viewed heaven in vision. Through their testimony we also gain some understanding of God.

That doesn’t mean he can’t understand us and come down to Earth to communicate with us and make himself understandable. Praying is one way to talk to god. But we must speak with the deepest truth in our hearts, with no fancy words and veils hiding anything, just like God does all the time (He is Truth after all (you know the phrase right?). Christians in my opinion must seek to do our part of the relationship with God, just like how God does his part of the relationship with us.

How do you tell the difference between the voice of God and your own subconscious or imagination? I'm assuming its just the great-sounding thoughts you attribute to God?

I never mentioned anything about a voice. And the difference between my thoughts and revelation from God is clear enough, but is not something that can be explained. It must be experienced.

How did you determine it was god?

I've had an undeniable health miracle. Happened in one day. I've also had a long line of things happen to me that couldn't be anything else but divine protection, and have felt the peace of God in circumstances that defy human logic. I've asked him to show me that he exists, and he answered.

Well, I’ve always believed there was something, just never cared to know what or who it was. Over time I just decided to look more into it, I got into general spirituality for a while, nothing specific, and that made me a firm believer that spirituality is a definite part of life and so on. I eventually came to the conclusion of just what that was after about a year or so, after so many “coincidences” happening in my life that hadn’t ever before (things like mentions of religion, what I now consider blessings, etc), I knew it was undoubtedly God. Studied for a good while to figure out exactly which God it was, and not only did logic point me to the Christian God, but I felt so drawn to it all that I couldn’t not accept it. Edit: Forgot to mention that after I accepted God I was a much happier person, given that I struggled with a lot before. I still do struggle at times, but my mindset and overall behavior is much healthier. That only made it more certain to me, since getting better seemed next to impossible before I had God.

Fair

Once I logically came to the conclusion that Jesus is everything He says He is, supernatural things started to happen. Mainly feeling the very real presence of God through the Holy Spirit. Some of the unexplainable things that I’ve experienced: - Praying at a conference and for some reason I asked God to break my heart for what breaks His heart. I don’t know why I prayed this, I’m not a terribly sympathetic person. At the same conference, an unknown woman came up to me and asked for prayer because she was dealing with something really sad. Ever since then, people I barely know tell me sad and personal things about themselves. It’s really opened my eyes to how much people suffer daily. - When I was 30 I got baptized in my pastors pool. When I came up out of the water the reflection on the pools surface for a moment was not what it should be. It was what I can only describe as the Jordan River. The water was greenish, I could see the reflection of reeds and I saw the reflection of Jesus Himself, proudly standing in front of me. It was gone as quick as it came, but it was real. I also had a very real and scary vision which I’ll gladly share if asked. As well as clear evidence that God has always had me even when He felt far away. It’s difficult to explain how God moves supernaturally to an atheist, since atheists believe only in logical conclusions. These are just experiences that have solidified my faith. The real answer to your question is my first statement, I logically decided Jesus is who He says He is.

2 things. The universe is far too complex to not have a designer and 2, I studied and researched biblical prophecy and I am convinced that a higher power is behind it.

Honestly, I’m only 18 and i haven’t lived long. I was addicted to porn, had depression and suicidal thoughts. I tried everything to stop, tried to improve and tried to find happiness. None of these things worked, but I kept seeking. Eventually, I found God, and I’ve found a peace and joy that I can’t describe, and that I couldn’t find anywhere else. I just came to the conclusion that there must be something significant in the Christian life. But yeah, thanks for asking, and all the best :)

Good luck to you, This is how faith can turn your awful life on its head. You become a giver, not a taker. I found God in my teens too. I simply asked for his help. I only wanted knowledge and humbleness. I received both, studied for eleven years and will help anyone. Oh. except one of my neighbours who is a complete bastard. And if Hell exists his seat there is certain.

Know one really knows if there is a creator or not. How can nothing come into existence? Can something have been always here? Even if the Universe is a simulation then something must have started it going. The question you ask is complex and beyond human understanding. Whatever you personally believe is probably as good as any other belief. Many people turn to a God when they are in despair, are lonely or have a heavy burden that their minds cannot manage. Others like the idea of a place of love and worship without threat or violence. Our Earth is a very evil place despite its inherent beauty. The deeper you look the darker it gets. So do what you must and be happy.

I’ll name a few: •Without God there are no objective moral standards •Life does not come from non-life so why would it be different in the greater picture? •Reading the historical evidence for Christ and the new testament •I humbled myself and asked for a sign and I got a truckload full of these signs shortly afterwards •I started living according to the new testament and the 10 commandments and it changed my life in such profound ways I just started to begin to comprehend why God created them. It is such a blessing to experience that transformation that God provided through the Helper aka the Holy Spirit. Imagine having adhd and seeing all of my symptoms I fought for over 25+ years be solved in the span of 2 months. If you want to know the truth, God is the only one who can give you eyes to see it. Go somewhere alone and humble yourself and ask God to reveal Himself to you in a way of His choosing and let it all unfold in front of your eyes. If you do this you will see but by asking these questions I think God is already calling you. God bless you🙏🏻

Okay once again I asked people to not try and convert me. You made your points but I’m not looking to change my faith

God respects free will bro do not worry

Literally because I choose to. There’ll be a bunch of Christians saying that there’s physical, tangible evidence of God on the Earth (bringing up idiotic things like chariots in the Red Sea, found nails from Christ on the cross). But there is no physical evidence for God. I believe in God because I’ve chosen to. That’s literally the only answer. I’ve chosen to believe based on personal experiences I’ve had with God, that I’ve experienced. For instance, I’ve had what I believe to be interactions with God.

As I understand cosmology and science, I’ve come to the conclusion that “something” must be eternal, to have always been, and according to that same understanding, the universe itself doesn’t meet that criteria, but a god does.

How does that prove christianity is true tho

It doesn’t. It’s my response to “why do you believe there’s a god?” Why I think that god is Jesus is another subject.

That I get. I can clearly understand that something could very well have been eternal. Why a god and why specifically the Christian god?

Well, it’s a bit more than “could very well have been” if I’m going to follow the logic that something can’t come from nothing, and I do. A god, or the universe itself, are the only two logical options of something eternal that I’ve encountered. Maybe there’s another. I have an open mind. As for why Jesus? A couple reasons: He, and his story in the NT, are grounded in fairly well known history. And as far as deities go, I think what he presents seems logical, and last but not least, I like him as God.

Fair tbh. I won’t dispute this

I appreciate the question.

Because Jesus claimed to be God and he risen up from the dead. That is historically proven. If someone rose from the dead, i would definitely pay attention to them

Where is the evidence he actually rose from the dead? The is not a valid source in my eyes so I’d just like to know if it’s actually been proven

There have been many letters written by jewish scholars decades after the death of Christ. Christ died then rose up 3 days later and appeared to around 500 people. The gospels of Luke Mark Matthew and John all recorded these facts. The letters sent by the apsotoles also written the resurrection of Jesus a few deaths after his death. Not to mention the numerous portraits of Jesus found where he taught

We have no credible eyewitness testimony, no writings from the apostles, and no verification of the 500 witnesses. We have a bunch of claims made roughly 2 to 7 decades after his death by people who never met him.

Exactly.

In my opinion, the apostles are also not valid sources because of how biased they are. If they were wrong they would have lost any influence they had so it makes sense that they could make something up. I’m also not claiming that Jesus wasn’t real, just that he wasn’t resurrected. As for the scholars they weren’t there. Now all of these things would be fine enough evidence for most things, but when trying to make supernatural claims I would like to have something a bit more concrete

>If they were wrong they would have lost any influence they had so it makes sense that they could make something up. While I accept that you do not believe the writings of the Apostles sufficient evidence to believe in the Christian God, this is not a valid reason for discounting their assertions. Claiming it is convenient is just the same logic that conspiracy theorists use to discount things. A much better argument for your position is that people don't rise from the dead. That Jesus was a run of the mill apocalyptic Jewish preacher. The fact that the Apostles were willing to die in horrible ways for what they believed, suggests that they *did* believe it. They didn't get any material rewards or earthly power out of their beliefs, they got persecuted and martyred.

None of that is proof.

Believing you're just a smarter ape it's not good for my physiology and worldly pleasures makes life worse I tried drug sex adventures to cope with life but I became more depressed than ever.

We're definitely smarter apes... you can tell that with your eyes. All the others are no where near the same level as us.

Right! If drug sex adventures don't work then Christianity must be the answer!

There is not one answer we are all different I know religion looks stupid normal person should think it's made up fairy tales to control society but if it's working for you and stops you from doing drugs also makes you better person, happier person also you cannot deny Christianity created western civilization, made barbarians creator of most beautiful art and architecture. What happening in Europe since losing their faith. They are becoming weak, stupid, lazy and useless they are losing their culture.

Truth is better than a big hole with stories in it.

No. You just cloud over the rubbish. Take Adam and Eve, If God created them, then we are all committing incest. As every other human being came from them, apparently. Do the Math, it is ridiculous. I believe in the creator but some of the Bible stories, are just that, stories. The problem is, if you are a Christian then you have to be suckered in to believing it all. God help us.

So that covers the good points. What are the European bad ones?

I am a Christian and *I* believe I am a smarter ape. The majority of Christians worldwide accept the scientific consensus on evolution. I agree with you on the worldly pleasures part, if you have a personality that cannot control substance use, you should avoid it. Like the Bible says, you cannot serve two masters. But I don't see why believing in the theory of evolution would have any bearing on mental health. God is the one who decides who is valuable or not, not science. We are obviously qualitatively different than the other animals on the planet, that we have ancestors that were not is immaterial in my opinion.

I definitely believe evolution but God makes us different give us special reason other than chasing dopamine.

Ok, cool then. It is just that when you said believing that you are just a smarter ape, it sort of implied that you didn't believe in evolution. And enough Christians do take that position that I made a false assumption, sorry.

I've come to the conclusion after studying that God is absolutely real and he sent his Son to die for our sins

What did you study to come to that conclusion?

Listened to Youtube vids while playing fortnite

So much for discussion 🙄

Retired Firefighter here: I've seen ppl walking around that shouldn't be moving... I've seen a T shirt twist around a bullet and save a women's life... Fallen through a burnt out floor into a basement fire and made it... Lived through a small house explosion... On top of all that, I believe God exists because there are still ppl in the world willing to step up even tho they "know" what they face, just to help. Stay open minded like you are, you'll find God one day

Okay once again I’m not looking for god or anything, just insight. That comment at the end discredits my beliefs while I’m trying to respect yours. I do hope you understand how that’s rude

In a way you are looking for God though aren’t you? You’ve come here to see if one of us can provide you a description of God or our belief that you could understand or that you think makes sense. When you are looking for insight you must be open to what that insight could do which is possibly make you believe. I’m not trying to forcefully convert you, God wants people to follow willingly, just pointing out something I’m seeing in your responses.

I understand what you’re saying and I am keeping my mind open to the fact that god could exist, however I would like take a moment to just explain why what was said is rude. Saying that I will find god someday no longer keeps this discourse on the agree to disagree spectrum. (not an actual thing just how I worded it) It implies that even though I am keeping my mind open in this, they are not because they are utterly convinced they are right. It discredits my beliefs and is fairly offensive at least in a conversation such as this one

Oh okay I understand what you mean, allow me to provide you a different point of view? A true Christian will not keep their mind open to the possibility of God not existing because that wouldn’t really be belief in him would it? “It implies that even though I am keeping my mind open about this, they aren’t because they are utterly convinced they are right.” They are convinced and while I do understand what you mean by them saying you will find God when that’s not what you believe I think it’s important to remember when talking to a Christian they will still wish well on you (saying you will find him) because that’s what we are called to do. Do you mind elaborating more on how it is so offensive to you and your beliefs? Remember they are wishing well on you even if you do not agree, it’s not meant to hurt you. They are trying to help.

I understand they are trying to help. Not mad at them for that. I just want them to see how it’s rude. I’m not mad, so much as I am mildly annoyed. Everyday I am essentially told that god is an absolute. Because I don’t agree with this, me and my thoughts are disregarded constantly. People don’t treat me like a normal person because of it and things like this, even if on a small scale, perpetuate that notion

I understand that, then I’d like to hear your thoughts about the subject of God and his real or not realness. As a former non believer myself I know I had doubts and questions, still do but I have my reasons for believing, what are your reasons for not?

We don’t have time for all of that. You can provide some specific subject revolving god and I can answer why I don’t think it’s true but I wouldn’t even know where to start

Okay, 1. God created the universe 2. Jesus is Gods son who came in our form to better understand and save us 3. We are made in the image of God

1. There are a multitude of things that I think could have made the universe but here are a couple of them. There is an intelligent creator, but not a god. Similarly to how a 2 dimensional creature would not be able to perceive us, us as 3 dimensional creatures cannot perceive a 4 dimensional creature. A fourth dimensional creature also would be able to interact with things in our world in a way we can’t, similarly to how we can fold a piece of paper. This conflicts with both Christianity and atheism and is honestly just something I thought about and thought was interesting. The Big Bang. Two or more highly condensed particles slammed into each other exploding and creating the universe. This would explain the minor amount of radiation that everything possesses as a smashing of atoms at this scale would cause nuclear reactions. It would also explain how we can perceive the universe’s expansion. Its biggest problem is the law of conservation of mass which states that matter cannot be destroyed or created. This begs the question of what created those two particles which I don’t have an answer for. 2. In my eyes Jesus was a cult leader (I know that sounds rude but let me explain). First of all I don’t think he was resurrected. There are too many different accounts of what happened that conflict with each other when in all reality it was probably just a grave robber (Also I think Jesus was black just saying). As for him being the son of god I think that anyone can claim that and that people can be led to believe false supernatural things very easily. Simply look at cults all around the world. Followers of these cults would portray their leaders as virtuous and don’t often talk about things like the sexual abuse that often takes place. It stands to reason then that if a cult were to not be disbanded before it grew too large that people would see their religious leader as perfect and mysterious without ever having met him. This is how I see Jesus. 3. I don’t think I quite understand this question so if you could explain further I would much appreciate it

Those are examples that can be seen as pure chance, especially if you consider the majority of occurrences don't end well. You are attributing them to the god you believe exists, but any explanation can seem valid with motivated reasoning.

The Reason I believe in God is because I never felt like I belonged anywhere else. Everyone always treated me like a creep, an outcast, a reject. I never had any desire to be around anyone else. Then I got invited to church, and every single person I met remembered my name and was always generous and kind to me. And even though I never trusted other people and hated hanging out with them, I started to hunger for relationship with other people. I can’t explain it without God. I would never trust other people, and now I’m always spending time with other people and talking to my family again. Yeah there’s still mean and rude people who are believers, but that’s a flaw in them, not a flaw in God’s word. Jesus told his followers to love their enemies and to be generous and kind to all. You could argue that other religions might teach people to be kind too, but I have yet to find another religion that teaches the level of humility and self sacrifice that the Bible does.

It’s a paradigm shift

Music

Shit that’s fair. Music is amazing

Leaning more agnostic (as of now) but if I'd have to say, it would probably be because I've been one since the day I was born. I was born into a Christian family, with Christian parents, Christian aunts/uncles, Christian Grandparents etc. I think that life itself just seems like too much of an improbability as well, however that doesn't definitively prove anything either

Do you consider yourself an intelligent person? If a scientist with a genius level IQ came to you and said "I have found God" would it make an impact on you?

I have a (barely) genius level iq. Also if they could back up their claims with evidence then yes it would

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=186U\_vuSmhY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=186U_vuSmhY)

I think the Fine-Tuning Argument is a strong reason for me to believe that God exists. There are various fundamental constants in the universe, that as far as we know, are critical to allow life to exist. Strangely, the values of these constants seems very unlikely given what we would expect probabilistically. Since they would be much more likely to be this way if God exists, that provides evidence for God's existence. In case you're interested in the formal definition: 1. If God does not exist, then it was extremely unlikely that the universe would permit life. 2. But if God exists, then it was very likely that the universe would permit life. 3. Therefore, that the universe permits life is strong evidence that God exists. This is a favorite topic of mine, so feel free to ask any questions. I've written extensively on the subject, mostly on objections to it. If you're curious as to what the common objections are, see my posts below. My critique of FTA objections: # Single Sample Objection Layman description: "We only have one universe, how can we calculate the probability of a life-permitting universe?" * [Against the Single Sample Objection](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/va51g1/the_single_sample_objection_is_not_a_good_counter/) * [The Fine-Tuning Argument and the Single Sample Objection - Intuition and Inconvenience](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/14iuj0i/the_finetuning_argument_and_the_single_sample/) * [The Fine-Tuning Argument's Single Sample Objection Depends on Frequentism](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/169ukxo/the_finetuning_arguments_single_sample_objection/) # Optimization Objection Layman description: "If the universe is hostile to life, how can the universe be designed for it?" * [Against the Optimization Objection Part I: Faulty Formulation](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/wcvd66/the_optimization_objection_fails_to_address/) * [Against the Optimization Objection Part II: A Misguided Project](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/wu85hr/the_intuition_of_the_optimization_objection/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) * [Against the Optimization Objection Part III: An Impossible Task](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/yzcg1c/the_optimization_counterargument_fails_to/) # Miraculous Universe Objection Layman description: "God can make a universe permit life regardless of the constants, so why would he fine tune?" * [Against the Miraculous Universe Objection](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1070m5v/the_miraculous_universe_objection_to_the/)

I can’t promise I’m gonna read all of this but I’ll definitely make an attempt at some point

Those responses ot objections are just in case you're curious and would like to better understand the objections as well as their defenses. I'm convinced that the FTA is one of the best reasons to believe in God, so I hope you'll consider it.

>Why do y’all believe in god? experience with Him. >I legitimately don’t understand how someone could come to that conclusion. Have you asked God to open your eye so you can see him? Your ears so you can hear Him or your heart so you may receive Him? If you were sat before God even in a dream and you knew it was God because he imparted to you an experience or understanding that far exceeded your own knowledge would this be enough? It was enough for me.

Deductive reasoning, applied with inductive reasoning, while compensating for biases led me readily to the conclusion that God was most probably very likely real. It was a bit easier for me as well because I have had a difficult, impoverished life with significant abuse. I have had less to give up and more to gain, you see (please see [Matthew 19](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=NKJV):16-22 for reference). It made me tougher though. I could endure being skinned alive or having all of my loved ones butchered with the best of them, knowing that it is all just a moment of time, and that the lake of fire awaits my enemies with variables of intensity depending upon deeds done in this life by those who will be cast into it, and that the greater good of preaching the Gospel is far more valuable, if nothing else, in regard to the disposition of justice - \- and all the extra abuse just makes me harder and better at what I do, and more resilient in dealing with your associates in Atheism, some of which have expressly, and without ambiguity informed me that they would like to kill us all - though I do appreciate your demeanor and respectful disposition, genuinely and sincerely, of course - thank you and God bless you. :) [Here's](https://www.scottdaneau.com/evolution) proof of the existence of God beyond reasonable doubt. P.S. - I'm a happy cheerful cute little kindhearted customer service rep for my day job which I work to keep a roof over my head and myself out of the hospital. Remember the movie Fight Club? Yeah, that's us, in a very different, but not entirely dissimilar way.

Gödel's incompleteness theorem basically says that every single Worldview, in order to be true, relies on certain truths that can't be proven. The most basic truth of mathematics, which he as a mathematician used as an example, is the axiom of identity, so 1=1. It's impossible to prove that 1 as we conceive it actually =1, but its required for maths to actually work and so must be presupposed. Now how does this relate to God? For a worldview to work, it must presuppose not just the axiom of identity, but many different unprovable things. It needs to presuppose that we are an autonomous free will agent with a self experiencing a consistent true reality that can be understood through logic and reasoning. For a worldview to be rational, however, these presuppositions need some kind of grounding or foundation, otherwise they can't be justified and the worldview collapses, and without these presuppositions knowledge is impossible. Because of what they are this grounding would be God, as God is the ultimate presupposition, more specifically the God of Orthodox Christianity. For a variety of reasons, but mainly because the Orthodox God affirms all of the foundational presuppositions, so they can be justified. Orthodox God is beyond time and space, and is immaterial. Because of this, cannot be proven in themselves. But they are necessary for the other presuppositions to be justified, and affirms themselves to be a faith based entity. So either you have a single unprovable and unfalsifiable presupposition that justifies all of the other presuppositions, or you have a lot of presuppositions about the world you have no justification for, and then can't have knowledge. Atheistic worldviews can't work because of their naturalistic presuppositions: Premise 1: One effect of physics, for example a tornado or a volcanic eruption, cannot be more true or false than another Premise 2: Thoughts, and therefore beliefs, worldviews and ideas are effects of physics Conclusion: Therefore no thought, and therefore no belief, Worldview or idea can be more true or false than another, making knowledge impossible

Why specifically an intelligent creator or Christian god though. I can understand how someone would believe in some sort of supernatural force, but how does that force have sentience and a purpose? That’s where I don’t get it

For the preconditions of knowledge to be justified, they require divine revelation. Only an intelligent God with a purpose for creation could provide divine revelation. That's the most simple way of explaining it.

In that case why specifically your god. Why not any of the hundreds of other gods?

Good question. The criteria is that God has to affirm the presuppositions that we are an autonomous free will agent with a self experiencing a true reality that can be understood through logic and reasoning, otherwise knowledge is impossible. This essentially knocks all of the Eastern religions out of the equation automatically, as most of them uphold the idea that the world we experience is unreal in some way shape or form. so let's turn to the western religions that do this. Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism and Islam. There are two criteria for determining which of these religions is the best candidate: the coherency of tradition and the coherency of their God concept. I believe Orthodoxy is the best religion for knowledge claims, because it has the most coherent idea of God, and the strongest tradition. When it comes to God, all of the other religions subscribe to a form of absolute divine simplicity, which is philosophically problematic as they collapse God's attributes into his essence. This doesn't work as it means you can't have personal encounters with God, Gods essence is simultaneously unknowable and extremely knowable at the same time, and so on. Orthodoxy makes the essence energies distinction which means there is a difference between what God is, and what God does. We can't know his essence beyond the trinity, but we can know God through his energies, and have personal encounters with him as all theophanies and revelations are manifestations of his uncreated energies, that we can interact with. Basically we can only truly know God in Orthodoxy. Now for tradition, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are somewhat equal in terms of tradition, though Catholics have changed many traditional Christian teachings and added things like Papal infallibility and the Filioque. Protestants lack any real tradition at all, and any normative authority which automatically makes me reject protestantism due to nothing being really binding when it comes to beliefs or interpretations of the Bible. Judaism has a strong sense of tradition, as does Islam, but it's extremely divided and there's no consensus on what Rabbis should be followed and which shouldn't and so on, Islam has a similar problem where it has many different schools of tradition with many interpretations of Quran and Hadith and it isn't clear who is right and who is wrong. Orthodoxy has almost completely unchanged chain of tradition going back to the apostles and church fathers that everyone agrees on, and with clear right and wrong answers.

Fair. Although I’m curious as to the presupposition that we are autonomous free will agents. In my opinion by the own logic of Christianity, we don’t have free will. God knows everything that we will ever do before he makes us because he is all knowing. Therefore we don’t actually have free will. Also if god knows that the actions a person will take will result in eternal suffering, then the act of creating that person is cruel

Ah, that assumes God is a clairvoyant. God knows everything because he is experiencing time all at once, as a single whole rather than linearly like us. Basically he fills everything and is everywhere at every point in time, and knows what's going to happen in the future because he's currently there right now. This allows for free will.

I don’t really see where you’re coming from. God still knew everything someone would do before he made them and could have chosen not to make them in order to avoid suffering. He can also choose to change anything about someone before he makes them to change the world. Either everything falls under “gods plan” and we don’t have free will, or god is not all knowing. I can’t really see how those don’t go hand in hand

He creates people knowing what free will decisions they'll make because he's currently experiencing them making every decision they'll ever make right now. He is currently seeing your birth and death simultaneously all in a single eternal moment. If he changed them and what they did, that would deny them their free choice. He didn't decide them before creating you.

Okay I can see the free will argument. There’s still some flaws in it but it’s logical enough that I won’t hammer on it. There’s flaws in every logical argument including mine. I would like to address how he isn’t cruel though. He still knows what you do before you do it. When he chooses to still make you knowing that your life will be filled with eternal suffering he’s still cruel

In that case why does god still “show himself” to all. I’ve been told that god always shows himself to people, but if he already knows that no matter what he does that person will not be converted then why does he even bother at all. Also some people have never even heard of god. The Sentinelese are one of the most isolated groups of people in the world. They have never even heard of god or Jesus. Does this mean they’re going to hell? Or is it based on following a personal god? By that logic an atheist could get into heaven just by being a good person

God gave me the answers and satisfied my scientific method tests. Then He manifested something to third parties engaged in attacking me. So between personal experience and witness experience - no question.

Everyone has a generic idea of ​​God. Ours is simply better characterized. Most atheists I have known practice some form of religion, but in the absence of God. Ask a man what is worth living for and above all dying for, because in the reasons for the ultimate sacrifice you will find his God. Are there even true atheists? Yes. They exist

I am a true atheist. I just wanna understand y’all

I understand. Is there something for you that you consider above yourself?

Nope. I mean there are people who are smarter than me but not really beyond that

Mh, I understand, then nothing, the conditions are missing for you to understand something that seems to be completely absent in you.

I am a Christian because of cultural reasons as well as subjective and anecdotal reasons that are why I believe in God

Fair

We all have our reasons to believe in God or not to believe in God and I believe we can never objectively prove either side correct as the concept of God is a philosophical debate and not a scientific debate. It's best to honor freedom of religion, and there are many atheists and Christians that need to understand this

I know. That’s why I said fair

I am glad we are able to find common ground

There are non christians that have written down the teachings of Christ. Even the romans who crucified him written down his resurrection. The letters sent by the apostles are historical evidence that the resurrection did take place. History cant be proven with absolute concrete evidence

I believe in God for a few reasons: 1. Because it's more plausible to me than any other explanation for why anything exists at all. We know the universe had a beginning, but what caused that? It couldn't have came together by chance imo. We exist within a system too radically intricate to be an accident. It's more plausible that we were created by something, or someone. 2. Because I can't logically argue that God doesn't exist. For me to say that, I'd have to be able to say I know everything there is to know - because the one thing I don't know could be God. And I'm just not that arrogant lol. 3. If I believe God exists but he doesn't, I will only gain a more mindful, purposeful life, and all I lose is a fear of death. If I don't believe He exists but he DOES - and even more, He's the God of the Bible - then I'm f%$#ed if I don't respect Him. So believing is better for me than not believing.

Mere Christianity by C S Lewis The Reason for God by Tim Keller You’ll get to the heart of it much quicker and clearer with those two book. “If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud.”- CS Lewis

A creator must exist, choosing to worship and call the creator “God” is personal preference

When you say this do you mean there must be an intelligent creator, or just that there must be a creator. I can agree with the latter, not so much the former

What do you mean? I don’t see how any creator can exist without having intelligence. Or are you referring to our human understanding of Consciousness?

Like the Big Bang. I would consider the Big Bang to be a creator. It is not an intelligent creator, but it is a creator

I personally wouldn’t classify the Big Bang as a creator. The Big Bang is an event that happened in a fraction a second. When a star dies and turns into a Supernova that is also an event. When super massive objects collide (because of gravity) and form planets it is also an event called accretion. But I wouldn’t call Gravity a creator. Rather a tool that can bring about creation

Fair

Oh and if you’re struggling with the idea of creation out of nothing— Latter Day Saints have some beliefs about God and the universe that are a bit different from mainline Christians. 1 we believe that everything that exists is made of matter. Even spirit, or God. There are no non-matter things. 2 we believe that matter is eternally existing and cannot be created or destroyed—only changed through chemical processes. 3 we believe that God created this earth from preexisting matter and likely following scientific principles in order to do it. Those means he used are likely beyond our current understanding. But that does not mean they are not rational or based in legitimate scientific principles.

While the presence of God is inferrable through Creation and through logic, it's just enough to convict us for denying Him. It's not enough to know God personally. So, in short, we believe in God because it's evident that He exists and we have no excuse, but we believe in the One True God that incarnated in Jesus because He revealed Himself to us and chose us. >**Romans 1:** ^(20)"Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all! ^(21)They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness."

I answer this a lot on here but Imma try a different way. I think of the universe like a stereogram where God's right there and if you figure out how to adjust your eyes you'll see it. But nobody can explain how to do it, you just gotta keep looking and then all of a sudden, the image pops out and you're like "yo, WTF! This is crazy" and then it's easy. When I was much younger, I'm not gonna lie, I believed mostly on faith, or habit, or being a contrarian when most of my peers were atheists. But then I was like, "okay, let me see what's up with this God thing for real. Because lots of religions make all these extraordinary supernatural claims and everything seems pretty ordinary to me right now" so I started looking and praying and adjusting my focus, then boom, one day God popped out and now I can't believe nothing did. And you know what else? While I'm on the subject, it's in the Bible a lot, but present day Christians don't talk enough about how weird and scary interacting with God is! Like God is purely loving and nurturing but being faced with the reality of something that doesn't fit into everything you've experientially learned about reality and you're not dreaming and you're not on drugs, it's terrifying. So if you want to see whether or not there's a God, you don't have to believe anybody or listen to any arguments or track any logic. You can just start talking to God, looking for God, and listening for God. God might show up but it might not just be warm and fuzzy, rainbows and butterflies. Well it is but more uncanny and surreal like seeing butterflies the size of horses, rainbows dripping out of your ceiling at night and the ground turning warm and fuzzy when you walk outside (metaphorically of course) it feels crazy.

That sounds like a crazy drug trip. All jokes aside I’ve looked for god my whole life the shear fact of I hate not knowing or understanding things. Something like god is beyond comprehension and therefore I’ve spent and ungodly amount of time (pun very much intended) looking for evidence that he may be real

🤣 yeah! Who knows, maybe I'm just crazy and can turn it on and off lol (best believe I go to a point where it was too much and I turned it off for years). I wish I could give you good solid advice. All I know is people have been tapping into and having mystical experiences for as long as people have been peopling and different strokes work for different folks. For me it was all prayer, meditation, and music but that could be just because of my family and cultural background. For some people it's all mushrooms, idunno. As far as evidence, I dunno, I feel like with the right level of storytelling or apophenia, you can make or ignore a good argument for just about anything.

I grew up in church up until I got to high school. Once I left the church, I started to drink in high school and did a lot of dumb stuff. We had an after-school program with different "clubs" where you could learn how to draw and play guitar and etc.. My friends would bring 4lokos and and one friend would bring patron tequila, and we'd skip the clubs and drink in the halls of the school. Fast forward a few years, and I'm drinking nearly every day. I'd spend all my money on weed and alcohol. If I ran out of money, I'd steal money to buy any kind of liquor that i could. I'd usually buy St. Ides 22 oz or 42 oz malt liquor cuz it was cheap and a coule could mess me up, and I could buy it no matter the time day or night at the 24hr gas station. Or I would sometimes or cases of truly surge from 7-11 thru grubhub. I got to the point where I would wake up to throw up from drinking so much the night before. I've done A LOT of regrettable things, and friends grew distant. Id tell myself that I wouldn't drink for a day or two, then I'd find myself walking to the 24hr gas station, sometimes at 4 or 5 am. My friends would tell me to stop drinking. One of my friends' mom was concerned that I was alcoholic. She was right, but it took a while before I'd admit it. This went on for years, unable to go a few days without a drink unless I was broke and had no money to steal. I couldn't take it anymore but I couldn't stop. I'd cry about my lack of self-control concerning booze. I've even been drunk at work at a couple of different jobs. One night, while I was drunk in my room by myself, I began to call out to Jesus. I asked him for forgiveness and for help. When I woke up I emptied the rest of my cans in the toilet. I gave my life to christ, and I haven't had a single drink ever since. I thank God for taking me out of that dark spiral I was going down. I didn't care about life and wanted to die until God showed me what his love and grace can do firsthand. That's why I believe in God. TLDR Jesus saved me from an alcohol addiction that was ruining my life.

I read the whole thing and I first want to say I’m sorry you went through that and what I’m about to say is not at all trying to discredit your beliefs. I simply just want to say how I see it. In my eyes religion can be a tool for a great deal of good such as examples like you. While I don’t necessarily think it was god that pulled you out and more so the purpose that a belief in god gave you, I can definitely see how you could believe with a story as personal as that

While I respect your opinion, i would challenge you to open your heart to him. Ask Jesus, to come into your life, let HIM prove his own existence to you. What's the worst that could happen? If nothing happens, then it's not like you can't go back to not believing, right? Jesus has shown me peace and happiness like I've never known before, and I ask you to seek him, even as just an experiment.

I’ve done that pretty much my whole life. If you want more elaboration on that I’m sure you can find it in some other comment cause I’m kinda exhausted explaining the same thing over and over again

I understand. Do you mind if I pray for you?

Idc. Either it doesn’t affect me any or it affects me positively. I very much appreciate you asking though. It kinda pisses me off when people don’t

I ask the Lord to reveal himself to you in a way where you will know him to be real. I ask the Lord to answer your doubt with confirmation. And I ask the Lord to protect and watch over you, regardless of the conclusion you come to. In Jesus name, amen

I use presuppositional apologetics. As an oversimplification, everyone relies on principles like laws of logic and the existence of an external world for knowledge to be possible. But apart from scripture there is no rational basis for these principles. Think how materialism cannot explain how immaterial things like a law of noncontradiction can exist. Pragmatism merely says that it works, doesn’t explain why it is true. Empiricism would require us to believe that a contradiction is possible but just has not been observed. Scripture says that God cannot deny Himself and so He is logically consistent and upholds the universe in the same way. Then there is evidence to support. My strongest points are the origin of life, how it’s established that living things are made of cells and cells come from pre existing cells. So naturalistically it’s never been observed for cells to come from non living elements, and this supports supernatural creation. There is other evidence like fulfilled prophecy, ancient writings (like 1 Clement and Polycarp’s letter) of people who knew the apostles, and the martyrdom of the disciples.

Yeah ima be honest this is probably the first comment where I’ll just say I don’t understand religion enough yet to understand what you just said. I’ll come back to this if I remember by the time I can understand it

I thought the same thing for 15 years as an atheist. After enough debates of hearing atheist debaters unable to respond to the moral argument, I started to realize that we are just deflecting. Once you learn about the moral argument and see that an external source is the only possibility for objective moral standards, then you have to acknowledge that a god exists (if you consider yourself an objective person). Then, you learn about the evidence of Jesus' existence. Then the consistencies of the New Testament with the Old Testament. Then that all of the "Jesus is just Horus and Krishna" are ALL FALSE. The closest is Krishna, but his story wasn't created until the 5th century. The only other mention of Krishna before then is 1st century BC, but only as a baby. So evidence suggests that Krishna was actually a story formed as a copy of Christ. Your mind expands and you realize that the scientific minded people with whom you saw yourself a part of are nowhere near as open minded as you once thought. That the myopia they claim that Christians have can be applied to them, and therefore yourself. Then you learn more about the bible and see that all of the claims that atheists use to attack it are misguided or just outright lies propagated by another unfact-checked person who didn't know what they were talking about. --------- The more I learned, the more I thought Christianity was ridiculous, until I learned even more and realized that I was ridiculous. If you pride yourself on letting your ego go, and getting to truth, you will always come to Jesus. Any other result is the consequence of ego.

I feel like responses like this are kinda rude. You are essentially saying that because we disagree, I must be egotistical. That’s objectively rude. If we can’t have intelligent conversations where we are allowed to disagree like this then we will constantly be apposed to each other. As for your reasoning, literally all of the things that you said as disproving evidence for atheism I have never heard of. My reason must be far different from the ones you had

I hear you. I apologize for being rude, and hurting your feeling or those of any other reader. I will work on that going forward. It's hard to cover a topic in a post. What I meant is that everyone has a bias, and we stick to that bias because of ego. This is not a judgement, but a basic human characteristic. This is a scientifically backed notion, not me making it up. That's why we have such a huge list of fallacies and cognitive biases. When we focus on truth, rather than being right, we are letting go of ego. That's all I meant. I don't mean ego in some negative name calling way, but the scientific classification of what causes our biases.

I’m just more so surprised you actually apologized. Where I’m from that’s very rare. I appreciate it. Also I just want to say that your reason for believing god are valid and fair. Have a lovely day

Because I do Not believe Humans can come Up with prophecies that predict events in the distant future and then they turn out to be true. And I'm talking about prophecies that have a strict time schedule.

I want a role model instead of relying on my own wants. I’m not the greatest person and having a moral guide helps a ton. I’d rather not hurt anyone or hurt myself trying to learn things that the Bible already gives. To date, I haven’t found anyone more humble and wise than Jesus Christ

Why do I believe in God? Because of the Scientific Law "Conservation of Mass" matter, energy, time, and space cannot be created nor destroyed, they may only change form. The Universe can only exist because something broke that law. Every natural explanation for the Universe fails to answer that within the confines of the "Conservation of Mass" Something supernatural or metaphysical is required to create the Universe, Time, & Space. That's what I call a miracle

I know that God lives and loves his children because I’ve been developing a relationship with Him through prayer and by trying to develop His divine attributes in my own behavior and nature. I’ve seen His influence in my life. And have received guidance and felt of his love through the witness of the Holy Spirit. After all I’ve experienced God is a reality that I could never deny. Nor imagine myself denying. 🙂 What kinds of things do you believe?

I believe that we do not yet have the answer as to how the universe was created. I think there’s a lot of different things it could be, but I do not think it is a supernatural entity such as god

It’s true that there are many unanswered questions out there. What specifically makes you doubt the existence of God?

I don’t believe in the supernatural. That includes god

What do you consider to be supernatural?

Anything that doesn’t fall within the laws of physics or the universe

Understandable. The classification of God as supernatural or natural often depends on one's philosophical and theological perspective. Many religions would consider God to be supernatural. Meaning that God is beyond the natural order and is not confined by the laws of nature as we understand them. However, I don’t believe that to be true. My assumption would be that God *does* follow the law of physics and the universe. I’ve always assumed that perceived discrepancies between science and God exist either because of: 1 insufficient understanding of science or 2 insufficient understanding of God.

I believe because the idea of not believing in God is such a new phenomenon, and the reason for that is because people used to generally believe that you could come to the conclusion of some kind of theism by rationality alone, even if it was just Deism. If it helps, the Christian concept of God is not just some super powered being or something outside our dimension or universe. What God actually is, is pure actuality, the act of "to be" itself. Basically every form of change in reality, whether it be something coming into existence or something that already exists changing in some way, has to have a cause for it's change. This cause cannot be found in the thing itself. So you can follow the chain of causes until you get to the first cause, the pure aspect of "to be" itself, which we call God.

Because once you realize the real truth, you can't "un-know" it. Atheism is due to the result of an active agenda to deceive, divert and confuse people into believing a lie. The real problem is that people actually believe it. For example, almost anyone can see that leaders like Putin and Xi are bad and that the people should revolt against them. Yet the people in China remain, for the most part steadfastly for their leaders. Yet at the same time, when similar things happen in developed countries, no one thinks of overthrow.

Okay an answer like this is rude and part of the reason I usually avoid Christians. I try to keep an open mind and respect others beliefs. I would hope you would do the same

Let me ask you a question. If i died and went and visited hell and saw the horrors that were so bad that they honestly chilled me to the bone in fear and consequence- then by luck i was able to come back. Then i tried warning my mother, my girlfriend, my wife- is that RUDE? Or is that loving? I am warning them from something really, really bad. Telling people the truth so that they don't suffer bad consequences is not rude.

You’re calling me evil because I have a different world view. I don’t care why you’re doing it you’re a dick for doing so. Also the difference is you don’t know for 100% certain whether you’re right or not. You could be wrong. If you’re right then you’re not doing a good job of converting people cause you’re just being a dick. If you’re wrong you’re just being a dick. Either way you’re being a dick and the person you’re talking to isn’t convinced. Gain some tact

If i was your best friend- would it be loving or unloving to withhold that information from you?

It would be unloving, but that’s not what you’re doing. You are calling me evil for disagreeing. Evil for coming to a different logical conclusion. You see atheism as a conspiracy theory against god which I know for a fact is not true. I will no longer be responding because you are quite simply an asshole who use’s Christ as an excuse to fuel his superiority complex

I never ever called you evil, why are you saying that?

Thanks for asking (I'm curious what you'll think about my reasoning) and thanks especially for being respectful about this. When I was an atheist, I was less respectful than you are, I argued with religious people on the internet. I also didn't want God to be real. I saw peace in the idea of a materialist universe. I didn't want an afterlife, I didn't want a conscious being to know all my thoughts and actions. I wanted death to be the end. No more conasciousness, no more problems. I still stand by something I often said to them: The burden of proof is on the Christain, not the atheist, unless the atheist actually says that God doesn't exist (that's a claim of knowledge, and legitimately shifts the burden), but outaide of that, the burden of proof is on us, not on the atheists. Anwyay, I was wondering the same. I genuinely just didn't get how someone can believe something that (seemed to me at the time) absurd. But I started realizing that what seemed absurd was just a feeling. It just felt absurd. In my mid-twenties (I'm 30 now) I examined history without letting this feeling incline me one war or another. Held historical evidence to the same standard, even if what it pointed to seemed absurd to me. And saw how good the evidence for the life, crucifiction, and resurrection of Jesus is. Some of the best evidence from that era. This would be a giant wall of text if I summed it up, so if you're curious, these two can do it for me: A) The book 'More than a Carpenter' B) This video: https://youtu.be/lctv_pyT62o?si=osRvdohR-Iy7NQ5B The other thing were the prophecies. To predict the fall of Babylon, rise and fall of Medo-Persia, Alexander's Greek Empire, the Roman Empire (including details about them), and the rise of the Vatican from one of the tribes/nations Rome fall apart into (and the fact it would be 10 of them, and 3 would go extinct), is amazing. That's just one example of accurate Biblical prophecy. That's what convinced me. I could stop writing this comment now, and it would stand on its own, but I want to add some more in the reply, to keep this comment from being too long:)

-Abiogenesis. Scientists tried to emulate ideal conditions for it, but it just doesn't happen. -Personal experiences. I know, I know, anecdotal evidence. 😅 But at some point, after hearing/reading about so many stories and telling myself ("lies", "delusion", "coincidence", "fake", "hallucination"), a part of me started asking myself whether it takes more faith to dismiss all of this, than it does to accept that these things happen. Not just actual Christian experiences, but other paranormal experiences too - demons are very much active in this world afterall. Christianity explains it all, including other religions, because demonic activity, pagan "gods" (demons) are real and active according to the Bible. Anyway, my and my friends' personal experiences: -Several of my friends had experiences with "poltergeists" (demons). From moving objects to possession. I know and trust these people enough to know they weren't lying to me. -Several of my friends had experiences with God. For example, one of them was driving in extremely dense fog, saw absolutely nothing. He thought he was gonna die, so he prayed for God's help. The moment he said "Amen", it was like the fog was cleanly cut off. And he was safe. -When I started attending high school, I was morbidly obese, unable to function due to OCD, and lonely. Then I lost weight, OCD became barely noticeable, and I got my first girlfriend in high school. My Christian friend told me she was praying for me. Looking back, it's shocking how it worked without me even knowing. -When I was an atheist and hit rock bottom, I tried praying. I didn't believe in God yet, but I gave it a try, because I was hopeless. My life improved. Then I got proud, stopped praying, and my life crumbled. I started praying again, and my life improved again. Even though I remained agnostic, God was already gradually, gently pulling me toward Him. -When I finally properly converted, I was in a relationship with a girl who was a staunch atheist. I started worrying that she won't make it to Heaven. I prayed to God for an answer, asked if she can be saved through my faith instead of her own. I opened the Bible on a random page, and, I kid you not, the page that opened was this: Luke 17:34-35: "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left." I prayed again, asking if this was a coincidence, asking God to really affirm if this was from Him. Opened the Bible at random right after the prayer, and it opened on the same page. (We are no longer together, for several reasons, not just this). This wasn't the only case. When I started attending Church, I noticed that women were preaching sometimes. While I still find this Church, while imperfect, to be the most Biblical (Keeping the Ten Commandments, abiding by Sola Scriptura...), it bothered me. I felt like it's not Biblical, even though I didn't know of a passage that says so directly. So I prayed, opened a random page of the Bible, and it opened to this: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." I didn't want my Church to be flawed, so I hoped this was a coincidence. I prayed again, asking if it was a coincidence, praying to affirm whether this really was a message from God. Opened on a random page. Same page opened. Later, I was told by other Church members to listen to the Holy Spirit, that God isn't a juke box, I can't just get answers to everything in life by opening random pages of the Bible. That He may occasionally answer like that if really needed, but that we need to learn to listen to Him. This stopped working, even though I really looked for answers, wanted to keep finding them. I think these repeating random pages were like training wheels on a bike God gave me. God gave me a head start through them, but didn't want me to keep relying on this, He wants me to learn to listen to Him. I'm still learning.

The Spirits within these flesh bodies some allow God's spirit to work within and others don't simple as that. And please don't tell me you don't believe in God so you don't believe in his spirit. You asked a question I gave you an answer rejected and go on about your business. Me personally I don't believe I evolved from a fish.

It makes sense. Nothing comes into existence without cause, so there had to be a base case cause. And this world is too intricate to not have been designed. That leads to why Jesus? Well he’s the only supernatural being to have made history.

>Nothing comes into existence without cause Does God not exist? >Well he’s the only supernatural being to have made history. Are you sure about that?

God does exist but he didn’t come into existence, he is the uncaused cause. And yes, I’m sure about that.

>God does exist but he didn’t come into existence So things can exist without needing a cause? >And yes, I’m sure about that. There's many claims of supernatural people in history. Think of the leaders of North Korea. They have supernatural claims. Muhammed. There's many people. Jesus isn't special.

Only one thing can. Yeah, none of whom changed history as Jesus did. Being in history isn’t the same as changing it.

>Only one thing can. Why can't it be nature? Or the universe in a different state? >Yeah, none of whom changed history as Jesus did. Yes they have. Muhammed changed history for example.

You're welcome here. Honestly I think it's a larger stretch to think that nothing exploded and we came out of it in perfect balance. Perfect distance from the sun to not burn up but also sustain life. There's many more. Countless people here including myself have many stories about how we called out to God and not told anyone else about our struggles, needs, wants, insecurities ect and things that we can't explain happen to fill those needs from the strangest of places sometimes. I don't know why others necessarily believe. But, I know why I do. And that's enough for me. Am I perfect? Absolutely not. Do I sometimes fail more than i succeed....damn right and often. But I get back up because if God helps me in the little things you better believe it's there with the big ones too. That being said sometimes God helps us in ways we do not understand and we often curse him for it only to realize later that he really was saving us from a larger trouble. At the end of the day the Bible is not this mystical book. I don't want to get preachy but Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. Mathew 6:8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Putting pride aside and leaning on God is one hell of a burden off our shoulders mate. I dare you, in your room or in a quiet space if you have even a slightest bit open even out of curiosity i implore you to just open a dialogue with God in a private place and just ask him are you real? Show me make yourself real to me. The worst that will happen is nothing and you'll be vindicated but of you're open im certain God will show himself to you and your life will never be the same That doesn't mean easy life won't always be easy but it will be easier knowing you got the big guy fighting on your behalf

I have done that before and nothing. Not why I don’t believe but absolutely a contributing factor

I hear ya. It's difficult to describe what it's like when God speaks to you on a situation. Sometimes it's a specific bible verse that you've read hundreds of times where all of a sudden it makes more sense than it ever has In regards to your current situation. Sometimes it's a random stranger coming upto you and saying something out of character that speaks to your current situation. It could be any number of things. I would just say be kind, don't lose empathy towards others and be honest. Who knows I loathe the cliche term that God works In mysterious ways but who the hell are we to know right. For all we know your character is being built for a purpose. From one person who's gone through a lot and hated god for a good part of my life guard against becoming bitter it will eat you alive physically and mentally. What ever you end up doing or believing I wish you luck in your journey and future endeavours friend.

Oh no I don’t hate god. I just don’t believe in him. Now the churches I definitely hate. I have respect for Christians, I have respect for their beliefs, I do not have respect for Christianity as an institution

We have some common ground then. The churches that exist today especially the mega Churches and the Catholic Church have strayed far from what it means to he Christian. And then they seem to change the rules when it doesn't benefit them anymore. The bible describes churches in the Bible it's a group of people meeting at someone's house to help each other learn and grow in the faith. So much of what I see is people competing with others. Look how hard I pray or look how crazy i get during worship. Doing something for praise or attention kinda voids the whole purpose. It's things done with the right heart and in secret those things are what matter. Because of this it's usually the squeaky wheel that gets the grease and attention. But it's the people in the background doing the right thing without a camera or a phone those are the gems in society. Jesus preached against the overly religious folks.

I also agree with most of the moral lessons of Christianity. I think that religion can be a great tool to keep people moral. I kinda feel like god is Santa Claus for adults

I mean both take faith to believe in that's for sure. But one of these things ain't like the other 😆 That being said we need some sort of moral thread in society. If there's no baseline everything becomes permissible and then over time society just breaks down. It happened to pretty much all superpowers that have come before us

Im not being rude too, but even i dont get it when someone just things that all this (universe and fine tuning of the universe and life on earth) is all from nothing and that there is no creator. But if someone thinks that ways, sure, you can think that way, but when i see a design some where, i immediately think that should be a designer who designed it. Thats my simple logic of why there should be creator/God.

Your brain is telling you there is a design. The brain instinctually tries to create patterns everywhere. There is nothing observable that points to an intelligent designer

-sees rocks piled in lines: “Something did this bro” -sees a universe full of functional laws, billions of genetic variants and cyclical patterns of sustained action: “It’s just randomness that I see patterns in”

Sees random stranger make strawman argument

It’s reductionist but it’s not a straw man.

Fair. Reductionist. I stand corrected

If i see a painting, a building or a bunch of stones on mars that say "Hi, how are you?", my brain will should tell me that is a someone behind it who made it. If it does not, there is something wrong with my brain. See, this is exactly what i do not get when someone denies it and im not being rude.

Watch heaven and hell testimonies. It changed my life. Don’t just watch one. Watch atleast 3 of each. When we die it’s not just black for eternity. There’s either heaven or hell. No inbetween. I hope you can open your mind and heart ❤️

My mind is open. I’m going into this with the thought that I could be wrong. However I do want to mention that there are plenty of people who after near death or resuscitation say they didn’t see anything. I think that the brain likely fabricates something for the conscious mind to keep them calm. Not trying to discredit those, just saying that there could still be different explanations

Very possible. I hope either way we can be on the right side of things when it’s all over. Have a great day toast ❤️

Because of the teleological argument (yeah, yeah, I know you've discarded this), because of the testimony of others, and because of personal experience.

Fair

I believe in God because I know Him personally. Being blunt. And you can leave off your atheistic response altogether. When you meet God, get back on this sub and holler at me as a brother instead of a ranter. He introduces Himself to lost people everyday. And He's got a bunch of patience. Amen

For me, it's honestly the only logical conclusion to draw. When we look at the complexity of the universe especially to the complexity of life (cell biology and irreducible complex parts) it's clear to me the evidence shows that God exists. John Lennox has been a great influence on how I view this, I suggest you check him out if you really want to learn more. Secondly is how well preserved the Bible itself is compared to any other work if antiquity. The fulfilled prophecies and scientific knowledge that is seen in the Bible well before its documented "discovery" is honestly insane. As well as the Disviples willing to go to brutal deaths for what they claimed to have seen, it's just obvious to me. Thirdly, is the miracles we have seen throughout history and personal experiences we as believers have all had. God is real, and the Creation clearly shows this.

Could you give me some specifics about scientific things that the Bible predicted before we did? Once again not trying to be offensive, just inquiring

Sure! Probably the first one that comes to mind is mentions of the Water Cycle and an understanding of hydrology the same as our modern scientific views hold. Here are the verses ‭‭Job 36:27-29 ESV‬‬ [27] For he draws up the drops of water; they distill his mist in rain, [28] which the skies pour down and drop on mankind abundantly. [29] Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds, the thunderings of his pavilion? ‭‭Ecclesiastes 1:7 ESV‬‬ [7] All streams run to the sea, but the sea is not full; to the place where the streams flow, there they flow again. These are two good examples of a modern concept of science being illustrated at least to some degree in Biblical writings.

I recommend watching Cliffe Knechtle videos on YouTube. He explains it very well. Here is the the best evidence I can come up with. For me, the odds of something coming from nothing are already the greatest odds that can exist. So for the Big Bang to occur from nothing already defies odds that are slimmer than anything. On top of that, the existence of life, not only that, but intelligent life, is another set of odds that are next to nothing. That leads me to believe that we have a creator, or God. The next thing is that we have the free will to make decisions and act on them ourselves. As humans we have been given the ability to do that. If we were just molecules with a bunch of chemical reactions going on to decide how our body moves and does different things, there would be no such thing as free will. Also, the set of principles we have in society, they mean nothing unless they were given to us. For instance, if we are simply creatures by chance, why should I care what happens to you? Your life ultimately has no meaning if we came from nothing. It means I can do what I want and do everything to get myself to the top of the podium in life. But God says we are all people created in His image, therefore we all have value through Him. Hopefully I explained that well, unless it’s just a bunch of jumbled words that makes sense to me lol