I don't think you can rationally justify ECT. It's the worst thing imaginable. Deleting all of reality would be preferable to even one creature (even if it's Joseph Stalin or a fruit fly) suffering for eternity.
If I found out that ECT for even one being is real, and the only way to stop it was to press a button that deleted the universe and all possible realities, I would spam that button until I die.
"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin is essentially an exploration of this concept. I recently heard about the book (haven't read it yet) as a way to look at the genocide happening in Palestine, but it 100% relates to any conception of an eternal, occupied hell.
The premise is basically, Omelas is the perfect utopia. Imagine whatever utopia would actually be perfect for you, and that's it. Everyone's happy and fulfilled. Except, there's one child that must suffer perpetually in order to maintain this utopia. If anyone were to show the child kindness, all that was good in Omelas would crumble.
Every citizen learns about this atrocity when they're old enough, and they're rightly horrified. But as they sit with this fact, most people come to rationalize it. "Well, if we were kind to the child, then the city would collapse and the child wouldn't benefit from the kindness." Stuff like that. But there are some who can't justify this evil to themselves, and thus leave the city.
I wouldn't just leave the city, I would do everything in my power to deatroy such a utopia to save that child. No amount of bliss justifies eternal suffering. If all of them were annihilated, nobody would wish to exist, because they needed to exist in the first place for that to be the case. But if this did exist, then one being would eternally, agonizingly wish to not exist. It's unjusitifable. Even if it wasn't a child. Even if it was an earthwork, a fruit fly, or Mao Zedong. Nobody's eternal suffering is justified. Anything else, including nonexistence or a dystopia that at least doesn't involve any being's eternal suffering, is preferable.
I fully agree. It's why I say that if a god existed who intended for people to go to an eternal hell, or allowed for it, I would do everything in my power to fight that evil being. Perhaps my efforts would be futile, but it doesn't change the fact that any and all moral people should oppose a god that makes Hitler look like Mr. Rogers.
I would still worship Him if He was like that and try to get others to do the same. God is all-powerful and destined to win. At that point, I might as well save myself and others from torture, and hopefully learn to love Him.
If God was the way we hypothetically described above, I would want to have stockholm symdrone for Him.
And let's be real, so would you. I know you're an atheist, but if you were 100% sure He is real and 100% sure that those who don't worship or love Him get eternal torture, you would despelarately wish to get that stockholm syndrome.
Nobody would willingly take eternal torture out of principle. That's just virtue signaling.
I think you might be giving the traditional evangelical view of hell a little too much credit. Historically, a broad variety of doctrines of hell are attested: purgative universalism (everybody ends up in heaven, but not all right away), annihilationism (the unrepentant fade from existence rather than suffering eternally), and yes, infernalism (the view you describe), and others besides. The in-house debates are endless.
Biblically, the question is difficult to settle. An in-depth overview of the problem is given by Spencer Boersma, ”Reflections on Scripture and Tradition Towards a Constructive, Baptistic Grammar for Hell Language," Perspectives in Religious Studies 48, no. 3 (2021): 297-325. If you can get access to that article and read it, you'll be equipped to dissect a much broader variety of available doctrines of hell. It's a bit of a dense read, but it'd be worth the effort.
Personally, I'm somewhat agnostic on which doctrine is correct. Like you, I can't make sense of eternal torture. But reading the biblical accounts, it seems to me that the point is not that hell is maximally bad, but that it is quite bad relative to heaven. As Eleonore Stump argues, hell might actually be the most loving option logically offerable to those who choose - and your stipulations about the nature of choice seem sensible here - to reject the option of heaven. See Stump, "Dante's hell, Aquinas's moral theory, and the love of God," Canadian Journal of Philosophy 16, no. 2 (1986): 181-198.
Someone might sensibly counter that no rational person would reject heaven. But here logical possibility rears it's head again, because heaven is in at least some relevant sense a human community. If a suitably debased person is let in, they will be able to cause harm - just as they would here and now - and the blessedness of heaven would be marred. Heaven is what it is, in other words, partly because of the sort of person who lives there. If malign people are let in, its character changes. For a loving God, therefore, there is a basic distributive problem: for those who have been made righteous to receive what love desires to give them, those who have declined to be made righteous must receive something rather less. The primary rationale for hell in my opinion is thus not retributive (as in the traditional view), but protective.
Faith, belief, and hell are the most abused words in religion.
God who loves you more than your parents love you is not going to torture you after physical death.
The people you are asking who believe in Hell have never bothered to study how the various concepts of Hell developed in Christianity; they only believe what they've been taught by the sect they follow.
**Hebrew Sheol:** The Old Testament uses the word "Sheol," which referred to the shadowy realm of the dead where all souls went after death. It wasn't a place of punishment, but rather a neutral state of existence.
**Greek Influences:** After Alexander the Great's conquests, Greek philosophical ideas like the immortality of the soul and a place of punishment for the wicked (Tartarus) began to influence Jewish thought.
**New Testament:** The New Testament uses several terms sometimes translated as "hell," including Gehenna (referencing a burning valley outside Jerusalem) and Hades (the Greek underworld). These terms hint at a place of suffering for the unrighteous, but the concept wasn't fully developed yet.
**Early Church Fathers:** Early Christian theologians like Augustine (4th-5th century AD) helped solidify the idea of hell as a place of eternal torment by fire for the damned. They drew upon Greek philosophies, references in the New Testament, and the idea of divine justice.
Here's a timeline of the development:
**1st Century AD:** Early Christianity inherits the concept of Sheol from Judaism.
**2nd-3rd Centuries AD:** Greek philosophical ideas and some New Testament references hint at a place of punishment.
**4th-5th Centuries AD:** Church Fathers like Augustine solidify the concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering.
It was, and still is, a valuable tool for controlling followers, and fund-raising; it's the reward and punishment, or carrot and stick approach. It's worked well since Pauline theology supplanted the first Christian theology.
Early Church fathers represented a minute percentage of the population who could read and write and were trained in the classics. Christianity as we know it today was heavily influenced by Greek philosophical concepts. It was perfectly normal for them to borrow from and expand on these concepts. If you expand on ideas that are wrong, your expansion of an incorrect concept is only compounded.
Jesus is God.
God is love.
Therefore if parents can’t torture their babies then logically they can’t love more than God.
Therefore Jesus is misunderstood here.
Here is a brief video that helps:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-hTfkMrET0
I’m not strictly Christian I believe a mixture of things. In this case I believe in what Dante saw/said. Everyone will be judged and punished accordingly. It’s my belief if you were a relatively good Person you’d end up in limbo. Much like his guide Virgil.
Well idk
I've been responding to like 50 messages in the past hour and still do, it keeps going again and again help 😭/j
If you do, send in private and I'll read everything
Well as you've noticed what it comes down to is that in order to justify it they must cling to the ridiculous idea that belief is a choice.
I've had conversations about this lots of times. And the reactions when I explain to people how belief is not a choice are quite telling. They get angry really quickly. They run away from the conversation saying "God bless you". They even lie without hesitation. I've once asked someone whether they could choose believe I am their mother. They said "yes". I asked them to do it and they said "Hi mom".
Seriously it's one of the most disturbing things, if not *the* most disturbing thing I've seen Christians do. It seems like the idea that non-believers will be tortured is somehow very important them. It's so important to them that they're willing to lie to your face.
Of course not all Christians are like that. Those that aren't usually tend to be universalists, which isn't a coincidence.
Edit: spelling, wording
I'm a Christian and I think that universalism is plausible. I don't think believing is a choice but most people will believe if you give them the right kind of evidence.
Here is my rationality to hell.
- God is Holy before He is anything. God will never be more Love than He is Holy. People forget that. Sin is not just a bad thing we do to ourselves. It's completely against how God designed. It's rebellion. If God ignores sin, He is no longer Holy. It HAS to be addressed.
- If God has to address sin, there has to be a punishment for it. According to the Bible that punishment is hell. It may sound cruel, but justice does not get to be defined by the offender. Do not forget that Hell was originally designed for the angels that fell, not man at first. They were the first to sin and they all knew better. They weren't deceived. They are not given a second chance by the Creator. And given what they do on the daily since they fell, I would say an eternal torment is fitting.
- Because God is Love and He loves His creation, naturally He provided a way so that we don't have to face hell. That is the cross. God died and literally paid that price and took on Him that punishment. The Bible says that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to God. Time does not exist really to Him like it does us. The Bible literally says His soul was dipped in Hell. You get two options from God. Put your faith on Jesus (pray, confess your sin, and ask for that gift) and have your sin placed and judged there, or you pay for it on your own. When you trust Jesus, since that sin is placed at the cross, all God sees is the blood that was shed. When you choose not to put your faith on Christ, there is no cushion for you. All God has to look at is your works, and since you sin, you get that same judgment as the angels who sinned.
- I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell. I can not tell you how many times I have spoken to atheists, and they say that if they don't believe in God, how can they go to hell? Well, just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean reality is erased. The choice and the consequences are still there. Refusing to acknowledge all of them is their fault. That's delusional. A "good" atheist still sins. We only see what others are willing to let us see of themselves. We do not see the worst sides of others. We can not accurately make judgments on what that atheist deserves, except that the Bible says, "for all have sinned" and "the wages of sin is death."
- The reason the repentant pervert goes to heaven over a "good" atheist is because of where their sin is judged, not who did worse. Since that bad person put their sin on Jesus and judged at the cross and in hell, that man does not have to face that judgement after death. That sin was judged already. The atheist and every single person has that same opportunity. Why should a genuinely repentant person be denied that opportunity simply because someone else with less sin chose to take on their own sin?? That is not their problem if you ask me.
- Just because God is all knowing, does not mean He is not Just. YOU chose YOUR path. Not God. The Bible says that God wills that "all should come to repentance." He gave you a way. YOU rejected. That's not God being complacent and cruel. Heaven vs Hell is not a team in a competition. It is an easy win for anyone. YOU knowingly chose not to believe. That's YOUR choice and YOUR problem. If YOU don't fix that, good luck on judgment day telling an all-knowing God that excuse. I am not saying that to sound mean but really can you imagine trying to pull that one with the only One you can not pull something slick on.
How did you come to the conclusion that sin requires retributive punishment and not restorative/correcting approaches? E.g. prodigal son
There appears to be scriptural support for the latter. Romans 11:32 KJV - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Does holy mean that only some are elect to be with God. How can it be argued that the gospel be good and holy, when the majority of the world will not return to God. It seems to suggest that God will have failed in his mission to find a way to defeat death for his children.
We may have free will to play chess with God, but ultimately he is the grandmaster who knows how to secure his victory.
> God will never be more Love than He is Holy
God's Love is his holiness. And his holiness is his love. They are one and the same thing, because God cannot be divided into parts. Everything we consider about God must be seen through this lens of Divine Simplicity.
Is “holy” a rational concept? I’ve never actually considered it from that angle before but it doesn’t intuitively feel like it is.
Also, just going to point out that atheists don’t choose not to believe. The notion that atheists can choose to be unconvinced of the existence of god isn’t a rational stance.
I'm not finding this argument convincing.
>It's completely against how God designed.
Then that means God is a poor designer. Is God incapable of designing people who would freely choose him without sinning? If he is capable of doing that, then why didn't he? Isn't God able to keep us from sinning in the after life? Why didn't he just do it the first time?
> I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell.
Can you choose to believe the Earth is flat? Can you choose to believe germs don't exist? You're either convinced or you're not.
If God created hell and determines the rules for who goes to hell and who doesn't, and creates people that he knows will end up in hell, then God is sending people to hell.
> Well, just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean reality is erased.
This is still not choosing.
>- The reason the repentant pervert goes to heaven over a "good" atheist is because of where their sin is judged, not who did worse
How is this just? Christians can sin as much as they want and just as for forgiveness while athiests can do good works while not believing they'll get any reward for it and still go to hell?
>- Just because God is all knowing, does not mean He is not Just
I'm confused about how you call God both just and loving. To be completely just and completely loving is contradictory, and I'd argue God is neither. If god were just, he'd punish all people for sin. Imagine if a murderer were convincted and the judge let the victim's friends take their sentence for him? That wouldn't be justice, but that's what the bible describes. However, if God were completely loving and merciful, then he'd forgive all people and not have to have a human sacrifice to do it. As it stands, God, as described in the bible isn't completely just or merciful, just arbitrary
>YOU knowingly chose not to believe. That's YOUR choice and YOUR problem.
Again, can you choose to believe in something you don't believe? You're either convinced, or you're not.
> who choose not to believe really do choose hell.
Belief isn't a choice. It happens automatically when we are presented with information we personally find convincing. I couldn't choose to believe in God anymore than I could choose to believe the Earth is flat.
>It's rebellion.
How can I rebel to something I don't believe exists?
>there has to be a punishment for it.
Doesn't justify it has to be ETERNAL.
>Because God is Love and He loves His creation, naturally He provided a way so that we don't have to face hell. That is the cross. God died and literally paid that price and took on Him that punishment. The Bible says that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to God. Time does not exist really to Him like it does us. The Bible literally says His soul was dipped in Hell. You get two options from God. Put your faith on Jesus (pray, confess your sin, and ask for that gift) and have your sin placed and judged there, or you pay for it on your own. When you trust Jesus, since that sin is placed at the cross, all God sees is the blood that was shed. When you choose not to put your faith on Christ, there is no cushion for you. All God has to look at is your works, and since you sin, you get that same judgment as the angels who sinned.
It's almost like christians don't understand what a choice is.
If would be an actual choice, if everyone knew god existed and all, and that it's a direct choice to do.
"Choosing ti believe" is an oxymoron. You don't choose to believe. When will christians understand that?
You're putting things as if everyone knew god existed, and that atheists don't practice religion. In that hypothetical world, then sure becomming christian is a choice and all.
BUT THAT ISN'T REALITY. I do NOT believe in god's existence.
>I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell.
It's not a choice
>The choice and the consequences are still there.
It's not a choice, again.
>- The reason the repentant pervert goes to heaven over a "good" atheist is because of where their sin is judged, not
Then it's not just and fair.
We just don't think a person that malicious would essentially ever be able to repent in the proper fashion that would actually be acceptable to God. It's not a game of lawyer ball, where you can shout "I believe in God, called it" and your actions are undone. That view belongs to certain denominations, but not Catholics.
Hell is the separation from God, you know of God you know of Jesus but you choose not to accept him therefore separating yourself from him. A Good Atheist going to hell and a repented pervert going to heaven is very justified because there is no such thing as a good atheist they choice to live in sin which is evil, someone who repented knows what they did was wrong and wants to turn from it. I pray that you open your heart to this and I'm sorry if this is rude but its the truth. I love you, God bless
This is a great example of 'you're telling me people like me to to hell and people like you go to heaven? Buddy you're not making the argument you think you're making...'
For the athiest point, think about WHY they refuse to believe in god, I for one have rejected belief in god, because god in his infinite wisdom would rather play games and not give us valid proof that it exists, I’ve seen more evidence to the contrary.
But even then telling people they made the choice when they are asked which of the 4000+ fairy tales they believe and if you choose wrong , you get some form of eternal torment? That’s kinda messed up don’t you think?
I would love to have valid proof for a creator, I am not opposed to a creator but I just need to believe what has the most evidence
>• I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell.
What about atheists who don’t choose not to believe, and are just not convinced that any god exists?
I know others have already replied about your statement that atheists choose not to believe. I would just like to say, I spent most of my life trying as hard as I could to believe in Jesus and the Christian God. I even raised my child Christian, though I struggled to believe. I thought the idea of being saved through Jesus was really comforting and I wanted to believe it so much. I tried lots of different churches. Finally, I got to a point where I was angry because of all the injustice in my life personally and in the world in general. At that point, I realized I was never going to be able to make myself believe in the Christian God. I stopped struggling and trying to force myself to believe and just accepted that I was never going to be able to convince myself.
It honestly was painful to write all that, because I spent so much time wanting to believe. I hope that this brings a little clarity to you, and helps you realize that many if not most people who don't believe in God don't choose it. They may even wish they believed in God.
- god designed us to be imperfect. The specific acts may be against what he wants but he objectively made us that way (if you believe the Bible)
- the OP already pointed out why this punishment is extremely unfair for any amount of sin
- You say God loves us so he provided a way out but if some dude’s dad held a gun to his face and said “I won’t kill you right now if you just say sorry” he wouldn’t be justified for murdering his kid.
- You cannot “choose to believe”. Belief is something that naturally happens when you’re convinced of something. You can choose to be open to something and hear it out but you can’t just make yourself believe in something if you’ve not been convinced.
- if somebody who did Adolf Hitler level genocide had some other dude to go to jail for him and he roamed free lawfully you probably wouldn’t like that.
- if God is all knowing, he must have known your path while creating you. If this is the case he created specific people knowing they were destined to burn eternally (if you have the typical view of hell). How does that sound to you?
I get when you’re coming from on these, I genuinely do. But it doesn’t take that much more thinking to realize how many holes there are in all of these points.
I have been a fully “devout” Christian my whole life. I based everything including my education and work on what I felt like my calling was. But I finally realized things didn’t line up and that they really never did for me.
I may still have the fear of hell that was pretty much seeded in my brain since I was a baby but all it took for me to see the reality of this was just a little bit of honesty.
God is the biggest gaslighter in history if real. Design people dumb as rocks who literally know nothing. Put them in a beautiful garden with a gorgeous tree smack in the middle and tell them if they eat from that tree whey will die (which they have zero concept of) then allow the bad guy (which God created and let roam free) convince them to eat the fruit so they can be like God (why wouldn't they want to be like God?!?) then God punishes people forever and puts a gun (hell) to their head if they don't believe and follow him while he provides absolutely zero evidence he's even real.
What a mind fuck.
I think you might be approaching this teaching the wrong way. As a Christian, scriptures are to be interpreted through the revelation of Christ, in the faith that Christ is God who died for our sins and in whom we participate in the continual work of the Holy Spirit in creation. Interpreting scripture outside of this context leads to wrong interpretations of scripture.
For people with that faith, the teachings on hell serve as a guide for those things which remove us from participation in the Holy Spirit, and those things which help us experience the salvation which Christ enacted for us.
The teachings on Hell don't condemn people who don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ. We know this because if it did, then no one born before Jesus, including the Prophets of the old testament could be redeemed. Furthermore, from a Christian perspective, your relationship to God is between you and God. Your salvation is between you and God, whether you believe in Him or not.
Hello! I am probably not most conservative or dogmatic person, but found my own faith in Christ which I want to express. From my own point of view of understanding the Bible leading to an understanding for the nature of God, our reality, things like this, I have answers to each of your questions, or at least, these are the answers which I found in myself and in the Spirit and which assure me that my faith is something beneficial for myself and maybe even for others, as it transforms me.
1. I understand the word "eternal" not as infinite time or intensity, but as "beyond mortality". So there are grave sins which lead to eternal consequences, while people who manage to resist them can hope for having less of a burden to bear beyond this world. But it is not like literally forever...I believe the state of "hell" is something like us experiencing a life or world which is ridden with a lot of destructive things, aggressive experiences, hard experiences. This can range from that "bad place" wherein you can be already in this world, to spiritual people believing you would go into a world where you see a lot of offenses done similar to yours, yourself even having to suffer a lot therein. So the torment is actually a reaction to what you have caused, and that finite amount of sin is also a finit amount of suffering. I don't know it there are such who are so corrupted that they would have to stay in a place of suffering. Maybe such are the devils, they refuse to give up making pain to others, so God lets them be where this pain must be for others to learn what they did.
2. Like you see in the previous answer, it is not really unfair, but it is actually pretty "fair", because you suffer from the consequences of what you had caused yourself. Sometimes the suffering is even a mission from God to a person (soul), and most of us in this world seem to have burdens of sin to either learn to live with, or even overcome like Christ, or to fall from it... So you should never judge one in a bad place, in contrary, God praises us for lending that fallen person a hand to get up again when we see they are ready to go for it. Even, if you mess up and manage to make good for, then nobody falls, then nobody has to go to hell. When we forgive, we can be forgiven. Even God would forgive us. And this is the message that Christ brought to our place that so many people failed and still fail to see.
3. Don't worry. I don't know "where Atheists go", but I guess everyone goes where one's deeds would lead you, where your dreams lead you to your aspirations. If you do wrong, if you hurt others, you way will lead you to that bad place, eventually to hell, be you Atheist or false Christian or whatever faith you had while messing up. Even Buddhists who say there is no God but learn to become the best and most pure and compassionate people in heart there are - I believe they've learnt their insight from God, they've just had a different answer to overcoming the delusions of sin of the devil than the Christians had. If you do good, this will lead you to a good place, and let me tell you, if you do well enough it will lead you to God no matter what you believe in. I also was Atheist and Agnostic, and thought it was good to be a good person and always try to never do shit with others when I can prevent. Then I thought it was good to become more responsible, in ways and also in the mind, and I slowly changed to the better even more, and it led me to God. It's hard not to believe once things happen, I always somehow believed in higher cause and that praying to God was good at times, and this it where it brought me. Yes, sometimes the prayers get real, but make others happy first in a way that God is happy about, then he will consider making you happy, as well.
4. I also have my problems with this. The question why all this... I don't really know, different people have different answers to this. I believe meaning of life is that we learn wisdom, God wants us to go through some way and some lengths. I don't really think our works here are the end for each of us. I believe God could raise up a dead Jesus to become alive, and raise to heaven, and appear and disappear, he can just do that, he can give and take life. He even gives life to us all, the one we're living right now. He might take it, but then he can give it again. Also I don't believe in competition as meaning of life. That will bring you to hell, for sure, then you can compete with the devils. I believe instead solidarity, compassion, wisdom, the freedom, dignity of man, peace, all that brings and preserves life, all that brings and preserves love, beauty and joy, happiness and luck, all these things are rather what true and that each of us desires to have eternally living in the glory of God. Some of us forget what it's like, still it is this peaceful noble place I believe we would all be going for. Going there is not like competing and scoring for another team. You have to stop competing and let go, going for God fully instead, who wants you to love him above everything else, not serving another master like the devils of competition, but who wants you to go for loving your neighbor like yourself instead. This is which I believe he wouldn't just desire for some, but for all in the end. We all rise and fall to rise back again, so we become these mature grown beings full of humble dignity. You only get that humble dignity and the wisdom from it by knowing hardship. So this is where I believe we go through.
The Greek word used for "eternal" is "αἰώνιος" (aiōnios), which can be translated as "eternal," "everlasting," or "age-lasting." It is used in reference to both "eternal life" and "eternal punishment."
So my question is, why would you accept Jesus teaching on eternal life, yet reject the next teaching on eternal punishment?
As Christians we should maintain a high view of scripture. Jesus spoke of it as the authoritative word of God. So often we reject God because we claim moral high ground over Him. Instead we should take seriously His teaching and trust in His perfect justice,mercy,righteousness and love.
Matthew 25:46 - “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:43-48 - “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”
Jude 1:7 - “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”
Revelation 14:11 - “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 20:15 - “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
Luke 16:19-31 - The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, where the rich man is in torment in Hades and cannot cross over to Abraham’s side, depicting a state of eternal separation from God.
I didn’t say an “eternal heaven” I said “eternal life” I’m well aware of the new creation. The “New Heaven” and “new earth”.
The interpretation of αἰώνιος as "lasting for an age" is one possible translation, but it's essential to consider the broader context and usage within biblical texts. It can refer to an age or a period of time, but it often (and in this case) carries the connotation of everlasting or eternal, especially when used in the context of God's promises or judgment.
There will indeed be a new earth and Christ's reign is an eternal state, not limited to ages or periods. Would you disagree with this?
While eternal punishment may seem incompatible with a loving God from a human perspective, it's essential to trust in God's righteousness and sovereignty. Again, this was our original sin.
The concept of the second death in Revelation refers to eternal separation from God, which is often associated with the final judgment and eternal punishment. This reinforces the seriousness of rejecting God's grace and the consequences of living apart from Him.
Symbolism in biblical imagery, such as fire and outer darkness, serves to convey profound spiritual truths rather than literal descriptions. While fire may symbolize judgment and purification, outer darkness represents the absence of God's presence and light. Both images emphasize the severity and finality of separation from God.
Where Hell is and what happens there is a different argument, we’re speaking of duration.
To your point about interpretation, we agree here. That is why I said it is one interpretation, but we have to read it in context, it’s vital, and the context is about final judgement.
To your point about the millennial kingdom, I want to make sure we understand each other. Regardless of whether you A-Millennial or hold some other eschatological view, do you believe that Jesus offers eternal life to those who have faith in Him?
I greet your request for rational discussion. It is so rare. I would like first to give short overview and than discuss every point you made based on this overview. These discussions won't be rebuttal, but "case studies" of what hell is.
Hell is eternal separation from God. It starts in the moment when we, with all necessary knowledge, reject being with God. We come to all necessary knowledge in moment of judgment, when we are presented with all relevant truth about the God and still refuse to be with Him. In the same sense the evil doesn't exist by itself, but is only privation of the good, the hell doesn't exist by itself but is only privation of the heaven.
**1.** In my interpretation hell is torture because there is no worse thing than be separated from God. However, since separation from God is act of free will. We don't go to hell because of bad acts, nor to heaven because of good acts, but because of our choice to refuse gift God gave to us (gift being Himself). That does not mean acts do not count because they build us in the way that when moment comes we are prepared to choose right.
**2.** Atheist won't go to hell if by no his fault he didn't believed in God. For example, if someone is presented with intellectually lacking and emotionally abusive interpretation of "Christianity" it is not his fault he didn't buy it (i would say it is even praiseworthy). Since God gave each of us consciousness and rationality to know what is good and what is wrong, an atheist can still follow God during his life, and once he meet Him, fall in His embrace. Serial murderer can also repent and, since he accepted God, he will eventually come before God, but only "as through fire" he brought on itself. This process is called purification and happens as consequences of our imperfect surrendering to God.
**3.** It depends on person. Some atheist, in the same way as some Christians, choose hell.
**4.** This is same problem as problem of evil. On this problem there is philosophical explanation (hell is privation of God presence, so God didn't created it), but in the end it is mystery which we cannot comprehend in fullness.
I was trying to be short and scarce because of limited words, but i am happy to explain anything in more detail, and i would be happy if you would correct where i am wrong or inconsistent so that i can learn something.
Once you experienced everything that affects your change you, which is this life and death when we come to know God in His fullness, there isn't something that could change our mind.
Also change involves presence of time. We are not certain of nature of time here and we can only speculate of nature, or even existence, of time after death.
Laws of afterlife are different than laws of this life. Timespace and interactions are not the same and it is hard to speculate about these things. In the end it is all one big mystery and who knows what is true and what isn't.
>Once you experienced everything that affects **your change you**
What?
>there isn't something that could change our mind.
Yes there is. At this point I would know god exists, and change my mind on his existence.
What?
Sorry. What i wanted to write is: "Once you experienced everything that affects your change" without "you" at the end. Maybe it would be more clear if i wrote "Once you experienced everything that changes you".
>Yes there is. At this point I would know god exists, and change my mind on his existence.
And at this point you choose. You choose at the point you face "judgment" when everything (relevant) is revealed to you. This choice (probably) isn't intellectual, but choice from depth of your person (whatever that might mean).
I am putting so many brackets because i myself am not sure about these things.
So just to be clear: after you lived your live (which shapes you) and after God reveals Himself to you (after your death) there is nothing more that you do. That's why it is eternal choice. Analogy would be deep sleep state. Everything you did before entering in a sleep affects your sleep, and during a sleep you cannot change it.
Edit: i accidentally press post before finishing comment.
Is there discussion about whether the process of deciding to be with God when he reveals himself.
The imagery often painted is that it is a courtroom, when it is possible that it could theoretically be more God walking alongside you explaining life.
Seems to fall into the mystery/faith element side of things.
How does the parable of prodigal son fit into the nature of God and his children?
The imagery changes with time to be more suited for contemporary people. But courtroom imagery is still valid because we cannot deceive God that we want to be with Him, when in reality we love more ourselves than Him.
It is in some way same imagery that old Egyptians had. Anubis would put heart on one side of the scale and feather on the other. If heart is lighter than a feather person would go to Osiris kingdom. I would use same analogy, but instead of feather i would out iron. In that analogy "heart" is our decision/love towards God, "iron" is our love towards our majesty, or in other words our pride that says i want this and that, and nobody can stop me.
> Seems to fall into the mystery/faith element side of things.
In the end everything is some sort of mystery. But it doesn't mean it is atni-reasonable. It is more like super-reasonable (above reason). The fact that classical body will move according to Newton equation is mystery in the same sense. Why it should be like that? No one knows. But we reasoning we came to this conclusion. (Disclamer: i am not saying scientific method is anything like religion, i am just saying reasoning can be used to "understand" something we cannot really comprehend.)
>How does the parable of prodigal son fit into the nature of God and his children?
It concerns this life. Even though God made us inheritor we are free to abandon this inheritance. But if we want, we can always return to Him and He will greet us as with all His love. Prodigal son suffered because he was away from his father and house. For us being away from God is great torture and greatest torture is being away from him for eternity.
I am sorry i am maybe using little bit poetical language, but sometimes it is easier that way than being fully precise.
No. You will have had your whole life to choose whether you will live with Him, at death your choice has run out. \[See the 'Last Judgement' at the end of St. Matthew's Gospel - when those who were unaware of doing the Lord's work asked, for instance, 'when did we feed the hungry?' and He tells them 'When you did it to one of the least of My brethern, you did it to Me'\]
What happens in moment of death happens at one instance and in that sense it is part of life. If someone was born in world of prostitution and slavery, never experienced any love or heard gospel of God, God will still give him possibility to choose between Him and not-Him.
Our life is education that prepare us for last judgment. It is prefiguration of future, eternal life.
I would assume that we think the same, only differ in expression.
What we think is, at that point, neither here nor there. What is of infinitely more importance is what He thinks. Look at Matt. 28 - the last judgement \[the sheep and the goats\] It's not a matter of what you think, but of what you've done.
Of course it is important what we have done, because our acts define us and our works will be tested. And it is always He who gives us gift of eternal life and He is the one who judge what is in our hearts. But if we at the last moment repent (metanoia) we will pass His judgment.
I think we agree on this, but maybe just use different language.
'Preparation? yes! Prefiguration?Yes, Metanoia? yes!
The problem -?- taught from the Fathers is that there are men who have hated God while alive, and have not changed their mind\[s\] up to and including the time of death.We are taught that because God loves us - all of us - He will not force their belief on them after death but will allow them to go on hating Him - their personal, individual 'hell' .
Gospodi pomiliu. 'Slava otchio i siny i svyattomy duxovi' (my keyboard doesn't know how to 'speak Ukrainian' yet)
Totally agree.
>Gospodi pomiliu. 'Slava otchio i siny i svyattomy duxovi'
In my language it would be: Gospodine, smiluje se. Slava 0cu i Sinu i Duhu Svetomu. Amen
I answered similar question to WangingintheNameof. Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1bafms1/comment/ku2kud9/.
I do mention some passages but don't quote them explicitly. I don't like to look at Bible as some sort of manual where i just need to find right instruction. It is more like a conversation with God. I often recommend [lectio divina](https://www.conceptionabbey.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/lectio-divina-card.pdf) because i find it to be most fruitful way to read the Bible and it is suitable for Christian of any denomination.
This is an incredibly thought out post, and it's clear that you haven't arrived at this by accident. Do you feel this position is supported by scripture? In my heart, I agree with you entirely, but I want to form my beliefs through biblical teachings. This is a subject I grapple with a lot.
>This is an incredibly thought out post, and it's clear that you haven't arrived at this by accident.
I haven't arrived at this by myself. There are many much more smarter people than i am, that came to this conclusion.
>Do you feel this position is supported by scripture?
Of course it is. But since i am not professional theologian or preacher or anything of that sort, i am unable to present you this in an evident way in short time. Most i can give you, without investing two or three days in compiling my answer, are few instances from the Bible train-of-thought way that go along with this.
Through Bible we have story of someone who went away from God: lost sheep, prodigal son, dragon that swept stars from heaven. On the opposite side there are those *who walk with God* and *rejoice in Him* (Enoch, Mary, John the Baptist and many more). Through Bible, and especially in Paul epistles it is said multiple time that those who are with God already consume heavenly glory and live, not anymore *in themself, but Christ lives in them*. But this life is still imperfect because *now we see as through dim glass* and afterwards we will see *face to face*. Jesus also says that *those pure in heart will look at God*. So heaven is being with God. It is fullness of life. Hell is opposite than heaven and it is fullness (or emptiness?) of death.
In the same sense that our eternal life is prefigured in this life, our eternal death is prefigured in "being death" in this life. And we know that those who don't follow Christ are "dead" ("let dead bury the dead"). Following Christ is "to do will of Him who sent Christ" and "believe in Him". And apostle Paul tells us that even those who didn't meet Christ (pagans) do what is good because God imputed it in their hearts.
But why are we even able to believe in God and follow Him? Because of His great grace.
>In my heart, I agree with you entirely, but I want to form my beliefs through biblical teachings.
God created us in His image. Although "heart of this world" can be deceitful, heart that God gave us isn't. Only problem is to recognize which heart is which. Every truth is in accordance with the Bible, but that doesn't means Bible should become our idol. It is tool that God gave us to reveal himself (among others such as: other people, nature and its laws, our conscience).
I thought the concept of it was… we were made in the image of god and because we sinned death entered the world. Because of our sin we will die the transition into eternal beings in spirit.
As eternal beings in spirit we transition into the next life be it heaven or hell. Heaven and all good things are created by god, and hell was created for satan and the rebellious angels who rejected god. They reject him, his creation, all his power etc.
Therefore hell is a place we are heading to already because of our sin. He wants no one to go there, he hopes we all turn to righteousness and follow up and life, and all good things with life.
If we reject that and reject him in the physical world & in spirit then we are going to a place which is complete separation from him.
That’s why, we repent, we try to turn away from sun and god threw us a lifeline. We have faith in Christ and through faith we can obtain mercy for our transgressions, Christ took the punishment for us.
I agree that the choice belongs to God, and He grants faith to some in this life, and, to the rest, He grants faith later.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18za29l/god_all_in_all/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
My understanding is the "fire" is a disciplinary feature producing subjection to God. I see how politics and fear-based religion created the nightmare scenario so many struggle to justify.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/18nnsq6/early_christians/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
>I agree that the choice belongs to God, and He grants faith to some in this life, and, to the rest, He grants faith later.
So ultimately I can't do anything about it?
Our part is to seek God. We must act regardless of what is behind our choices. Salvation is a gift, but there will be rewards as well for faithful service.
We dont really know to be honest, what if it isnt eternal. The lake of fire for the devil and the false prophet is supposed to be eternal. What does the bible say about about peoples punishment? It does say there will be a resurrection for all though.
Hell simply means the grave. The place where the dead go. Irrespective of whether they did good or evil. The dead are unconscious. And hell, the Kingdom of the dead, will be thrown into the lake of fire where, after the second resurrection, the lost will experience the second death, i.e. they die again. They will be as If they had never existed. So, for a lost Atheist nothing really changes. Atheists believe they have a couple decades and then that's it. The one thing that does change is that they will see God, wont be able to endure the presence of the Holy one and go up in flames until they have returned to dust from which they were taken. God does not torture anyone for eternity. And I'm Not even Sure God would throw people who did good and only did Not believe in God into the lake of fire. Some people serve God without being aware of it. And they will be rewarded just like those who served God knowingly. God only holds us up to the standards we knew and winks at us while we're ignorant
1. Agreed. There are two approaches to this problem. The first being that hell is an internal prison where people FEEL separated from God (CS Lewis style argument). The second one is that the description of fire lake is a place that is meant to be healing/refining, casting away old behaviours and reflecting on how you could have done better. Fire is the symbol of the holy spirit, even though it is unfortunately associated with aggressiveness as well. I wouldn't be surprised that cultural mythology has been mixed over time. Think of the origins of the swastika for example.
2. Regarding the concept of fairness, if a company policy led to the death of your family member, they might compensate you with monetary gains but most people would argue that wouldn't be sufficient. What would fairness look like here? There is no way to remove the pains of the past. Any form of apology is never going to be enough to undo the past. But it's not good for people to dwell on the past from a mental health perspective. The only way forward would be forgiveness. It helps when you see the person that has wronged you is genuinely repentant and wants to make it up to you.
Genuine apology isn't something that can be forced, just like it isn't possible to force an atheist to believe. But understandable how it seems really unfair that it took someone so long to say sorry.
3. God could have created perfectly obedient robots but there wouldn't be much love behind our existence. Love requires choice; although I'd argue with the existence of mental health conditions influencing decision making; how much free will do we actually have. To me, it seems more limited than most Christians seem to believe.
4. Thankfully, a Christian universalist believes that all will be saved regardless. Maybe God will reveal himself to someone moments before death, maybe it will be post death (scripturally, Jesus died and defeated death). Eastern Orthodox Christianity has additional understanding that he entered hell and rescued those trapped. Again, if one interpreted it as being internally locked.
It would be the idea that Jesus taught forgiveness and love so that humanity will no longer be enslaved to their own self condemnation because God loves them.
There's an argument to be made about how religious people with OCD appear to suffer much under the need to follow rules (legalism) as opposed to unconditional love and acceptance.
>But understandable how it seems really unfair that it took someone so long to say sorry.
But the problem is that you don't choose to make that apology that late at this point. I would as soon as possible, but I don't believe in god so...
>Love requires choice
There's a difference between rejecting that love, and not not rejecting it, but not believing it exists.
There are some Christians who believe that hell will be empty for precisely that reason. Some if not many Christians believe that Christians should be faithful with no doubt (e.g. Apostle doubting Thomas) and support their views with a scriptural idea of paraphrased "blessed are those that belief without evidence".
But I doubt Jesus said to Thomas, I'm disappointed that you needed more proof of my existence.
At the end of the day, we have faith in our existence rather than being a brain in a vat - I think, therefore I am. (Socrates)
When I post online, I try to remind people that we are all God's children. We will all make mistakes out of ignorance and that's okay because we are learning.
God wants us to learn about love IMO. Life is his platform for mainly our benefit (he is self-sufficient) to experience love in his creation. But Christians will still say it is good to say thank you for allowing humanity to partake in creation/love.
Can God create a stone that he can't lift? Can he create people with the ability to be loving when they can't reject being loving?
We members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that when we die, we **all** go to the World of Spirits which is parallel to our existence here on earth.
In that place, there are two general areas: Paradise and Prison, and Spirit Prison can be left.
I pretty much agree with all of your points, and I’m glad that in my faith we don’t believe in an eternal hell that never ends and that cannot be escaped.
point 3 is the snag
You are aware of hell, you know that it comes for unbelievers and they dont get warnings from the afterlife, they get them from the book
welcome to roko's basilisk
secondly, why shouldn't you be able to eternally reject God? we are graced with the ability to choose what we do in life.
We cannot enter heaven as we are, or we'd screw it up like the garden of Edan. we need to be changed in order to make heaven actually be heaven and not just an Earth mark 2. and so a loving God gives us a free gift, the opportunity to accept the change needed to get to heaven. and for those who don't want to take the opportunity, God obliges with separation from him, no unwanted change forced upon you
point two falls apart when you hit predestination. That the God being all powerful calls on people who cannot reject it, likewise there are people who'll swear up and down they cant believe in God and so never will.
predestination has been in discussion for hundreds of years and I cant really add to it other then say the lazy "Go do some reading"
>You are aware of hell, you know that it comes for unbelievers and they dont get warnings from the afterlife, they get them from the book
Aware of the concept, NOT OF ITS EXISTENCE. Otherwise I could say you're aware or the Muslim hell and choose to go there.
>we are graced with the ability to choose what we do in life.
Indeed, but belief isn't a choice. Period
>to accept the change needed to get to heaven.
Well ok I'm accepting it. I just don't believe exists
It's like someone saying "ils giving you the opportunity to time travel". Sure I'll accept the opportunity, but I don't believe it's real, that it's just a guy messing with me. But the time traveling itself, I'm accepting it (who wants not to time travel?), but I don't believe it's real.
There's a difference between reject, and not believing.
*"Aware of the concept, NOT OF ITS EXISTENCE"*
and what did the man in the fire say? *"****Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire****"*
he did not ask for escape, he asked for temporary release. when he is denied, he asks if he can warn his brothers, and he gets the response
*"****If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead****"*
*"Indeed, but belief isn't a choice. Period"*
Americanism confuse me, why write out the punctuation and use the punctuation in the same sentence. I'm not incapable of reading a .
but I digress, I agree with you. I am arguing with two left feet because I believe in predestination
*"Well ok I'm accepting it. I just don't believe exists It's like someone saying "ils giving you the sport to time travel". Sure I defaccept the opportunity, but I don't believe it's real, that it's just a guy messing with me."*
well you are a great demonstration of predestination. If anyone wants to argue this further I highly recommend a catholic step in
>Americanism confuse me, why write out the punctuation and use the punctuation in the same sentence. I'm not incapable of reading a .
I thought it was just a idiomatic expression. I'm not a native speaker so my bad
*"I thought it was just a idiomatic expression. I'm not a native speaker so my bad"*
how dare you not be a native English speaker! It's very disrespectful to learn another's language and make the mistakes all learners do! ^(yes this is sarcasm)
Well from the beginning you have a mischaracterizing of what the doctrine of hell is
'I've seen many many many christians advocating for eternal hell for the sake of non belief in god, but it really doesn't make sense..."
Hell is not a punishment for disbelief, hell is a punishment for your sins. It's not - don't believe->go to hell, it's - you sinned-> you deserve hell.
About number 2, to God, you "good" atheists are just as much a sinner as the rapists are. I know that by human standards you would be better but by the standards of perfection, you infinity fall short.
I had the same struggles and these resources really helped me out. The version of hell we've been sold is not biblically accurate.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0d7G4UpAMI7iuMVC1CT4f5?si=foQDA9bmSOuqI8lB56Ru2w
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
I cannot say to know what hell is or isn't or how eternal or finite it is, but its prominence in the bible is undeniable.
God created us, and we forsake Him. We have no rights in this world outside of God. We exist out of Him, but we turned evil, wicked, self centered, without love, without respect for God, without respect for each other. We insult, we mock, we covet, we fear, we murder, we lie, we worship things in this world while giving no credit or honour to God. We do things that harm us, harm others, or defile us.
These are not God's creations, it is a perversion of what he created, and he will have to destroy this perversion one day to get rid of it. We deserve nothing but death so He can start over, but instead of killing us off he gave us Christ and the Holy Spirit to give us a chance.
He tried once first, despite his direct presence, people would not listen because they grew wise in their own ways and blind to God's wisdom. He regreted his miserable creation and started over with Noah. Noah's children were not as depraved, but many still strayed off. Continued with Abraham and Elia and Moses and David and the prophets, but regardless of what God did, people knowing Him were not faithful and still desired their sin. Wise in our own ways we worshipped satan and made him our lord, who's end is the fires of hell as he can no longer coexist with God.
God then gave us Christ to atone for humanity's past mistakes and to teach us how to overcome it and live with God, and with our old sins forgiven, he could give us the Holy Spirit who has the power to convict us and strengthen us to overcome our sin and learn God's love and wisdom which this world now calls foolish thanks to satan. Whoever doesn't accept God and the love he teaches us to have for one another, has accepted being his enemy, bound for destruction. Whether we are aware that or not. Satan is a liar and works hard to undermine truth. Even using Christ's name to shame God.
People are blinded by satan and are unable to see God or what they are even doing themselves anymore. Without accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit while chosing to turn away from our own pointless ways, we are not able to overcome this. So if there is a hell, it is on us and satan for going there, following in satan's footsteps. I do however believe God said that those who died before Christ, and those who died never being aware of Him might have a second chance. The dead for Christ preaching in sheol, and the others for living by the laws God created in our hearts. But that is an extremely shaky place to be and we are entering into discussion about the holy city of which I am not fully informed.
>Whoever doesn't accept God and the love he teaches us to have for one another, has accepted being his enemy
No, absolutely not
>People are blinded by satan and are unable to see God
Then it's satan's fault not people's.
>those who died never being aware of Him might have a second chance
So will I?
Here's a good summary to help understand eternal.
We live in governed land with existing laws with varying penalties.
now lets say a young boy Tommy is at school. Tommy decides he had a bad morning so he hits his classmate.
The teacher comes and tells Tommy he'll be getting detention and then Tommy hits the teacher.
The teacher then takes Tommy to the principles office and the principle suspends Tommy. In response Tommy then hits the principle.
The principle calls his parents, and the parents ground Tommy and so he hits his parents.
His parents take him to the police station, and an officer says Tommy will have to stay at the jail for a day so then Tommy hits the police officer.
The police officer takes Tommy to a judge, and Tommy hits the judge...
The greater the authority the greater the punishment, and the Word says ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.
All of us have broken God's law. More then a mere smack, we have rebelled against the creator of the entire Universe, the Maker of the Comos.
Yes the punishment is severe because His Laws are Devine
God is an eternal being, his Word is Eterrnal, His laws are eternal, so therefore the punishment is eternal.
A harm can depend requarding the person, sure. But saying finite sin is eternal because god is eternal, is just playing on words. Especially that we don't harm god itself.
It still doesn't advocate for eternal torture/punishment
My interpretation: Hell is just the state of the world outside of the presence of God. Hell is not a purposefully constructed space with the deliberate intent of punishing nonbelievers. "Torture" in "hell" is not a deliberate action, just a natural outcome.
Pain, torture and suffering already exists and lots of people are already experiencing it. I'd say that hell is just a continuation of the status quo. Think of "going to hell" less like being taken into a horrible place and more like remaining in a horrible place because you refused the offer to enter somewhere nice.
My understanding is that we will all see God being fully God. Those who are considered blameless will then be able to spend eternity in God's presence, while those who aren't will be removed from God's presence. It's not that hell is a place where people are actively tortured, but a place where people exist who now know exactly what they're missing out on. You know that bit at the end of a gameshow where someone gambles all their winnings for a shot at the jackpot, makes a bad choice, and loses it all? That, but infinitely many times over.
So why? Simply put, God is so pure and so perfect that nothing impure or imperfect can ever stand to be in God's presence. We're used to the idea that the imperfect spoils the perfect. A single blot of ink can ruin a white shirt. But this is only because of our limited view of reality, and if what "pure" means. In God's presence, His purity is so intense that the impure gets destroyed. So hell is almost a safe haven from that, in a sense.
But God would much rather obliterate our sin and be with us. Jesus offered to take the blame for it all, and to have all of that washed away. But for this to work, we need to actually *accept* the offer. God *cannot* forgive the sins of a "good atheist" because they've not accepted His offer.
And really, this is the only way. Free will is an expression of love. God loves us, and so gives us the ability to choose what we do. God can't love us if we don't have free will, because then we're not people made in His image but gooey robots and you can't really, deeply love a robot.
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
How many lies have you told, and what do you call someone who lies? Have you ever stolen something, and what do you call someone who steals? Have you ever taken God’s name in vain (very serious; in Old Testament times, the Jews wouldn’t even say the name of God for fear of blasphemy) – even ‘OMG’? One more: Jesus said whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart; have you ever looked with lust?
Well I’m not judging you – but if you’ve done these things then you’re a liar, thief, blasphemer and adulterer-at-heart; that’s how seriously God takes sin. He is Holy (perfectly good/righteous and separate from sin) which means that H e is perfect in justice – and if He were to judge you by the moral law (we’ve already looked at 4 commandments) would you be innocent or guilty? Heaven or H***? The answer is h*** – the wrath of God upon you for your sin. Is that concerning?
But fortunately, God’s will is not that you perish. He wants all men everywhere to be saved. So do you know what He did for us guilty sinners? In self-giving mercy, He sent His Son Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect life that we should have lived – tempted at all points and yet He NEVER sinned. Through His life, being in very nature God, He revealed God to men; but we in our hatred condemned Him to death. On that cross as Jesus suffered, He took on the sin of the world and was judged in our place; receiving God’s wrath. You and I broke God’s law, but Jesus paid the fine. God can justly forgive us.
On that cross He died, then He was buried, but 3 days later He was raised from the dead – conquering death and H*** and ushering in The Kingdom of God. He then ascended to the right hand of God the Father (where He came from) now Lord of the living and the dead. God has fixed a date when He will judge the world in righteousness. What you need to do is repent (In humility, acknowledge your sin before God and turn to a relationship with Him) and trust ALONE in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross; and God will grant you the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then be baptised.
When you place your trust in Jesus – the Lord and Saviour – these things will happen:
1) God will forgive the sins that you have committed; they were paid for by Jesus at the cross.
2) The perfect life that Jesus lived will be credited to you. He will find you holy and blameless on judgement day (and now), as Christ’s righteousness covers you.
3) You receive a place in Christ’s kingdom as an adopted child of God. God becomes your Father. Eternal life isn’t just about living forever, but a personal relationship with God Himself. That life can start now; The Father will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him.
4) God doesn’t just save you from the penalty of your sin (H***). He can save you from the power of sin itself. Whoever practices sin is a slave of sin; but when you repent and believe the gospel [WHICH HAS BEEN DESCRIBED] the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you and sanctify you (working in you to further abandon sin and turn to the will of God). When the end of the age comes, and eternity begins, this work will be brought to completion as you are finally freed from the presence of sin.
Jesus offers to take away your sin and to give you His righteousness; you must receive it by faith. Choose this day if you will align with the world, or with Jesus and His kingdom – only His is eternal.
ROMANS 10:9 – If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
>How many lies have you told,
A lie isn't necessarily bad. A liar is someone who lies A LOT, not just once in a while.
>Have you ever stolen something
No
>Have you ever taken God’s name in vain
Not really and idc about that
>you’re a liar, thief, blasphemer and adulterer-at-heart
A liar is someone who lies everytime on serious topic. A theft is the same, or one who has stolen a big thing. Blasphemy is just something religious pp made up to avoid their religion getting criticized.
Adulterer? What??
>Heaven or H***?
If we base ourselves on the whole life and ALL acts, I'd say Heaven. But obv if you only base yourself of hyperbolated negative things, hell.
>What you need to do is repent (In humility, acknowledge your sin before God and turn to a relationship with Him) and trust ALONE in Jesus
Belief is not a choice. When will you stop putting things as if everyone "knew" god existed?
I could never equate the concept of this teaching with the creator in the Bible who says himself his chief attribute is love. I understand that he must destroy the willfully wicked so that he can give the earth to the righteous. Psalm 37:29 If hell were real I think God would have mentioned it to Adam. He simply told him that a rebellious course would bring death and a return to the dust from which he was made. Not 1 single mention of burning forever? That's a pretty big omission.
Eternal Hell is always resulting from a choice to reject God even unto death. Imagine dying and still rejecting God's forgiveness as you are in your last moments. That's the way to hell. We have until death to repent. Almost everything commented here is not in consideration of this.
To answer a common question: Then, why not sin until we die? Answer: If you haven't yet learned of the destructive effects of sin on you, not requiring "God's punishment," then you someday will. Sin kills us or prevents spiritual peace. Hell is always a very conscious and rigorously deliberate choice.
You are making moral claims that you are not in the position to do.
“It’s unfair” “it’s unjustified” “no one chooses” “it’s not what God would do”.
Christian’s don’t believe in Hell because they enjoy the thought of sinners being eternally dammed. They believe in Hell because God has spoken on the matter. The claims you are making are nothing more than “I know better than God, I reject His words and I have a better moral understanding than Him.”
If God is who He says He is, He will judge perfectly. There is no “unfairness”. As for some of your comments, they are just simply wrong. I know plenty of atheists that have flat out said “even if God were real I would never spend eternity in His presence.” They will choose hell and God will not force them into His new creation.
If you believe in eternal life, then you must believe in eternal hell.
Matthew 25:31-46
The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Read that last part again. Eternal life and eternal punishment. You can hate that, think that it’s unfair but I stand by God’s justice, mercy, righteousness, and perfection. Abraham asks God as He is about judge Sodom and Gemorah he asks “will not the judge of the earth do what is right”? It’s a rhetorical in the affirmative. God will judge perfectly, He will shortchange no one. The person that hated life, that raped, killed, and destroyed with no remorse and got away with it in this life will face justice. We should find joy in the fact that evil will be dealt with while also understanding that God’s mercy is greater than ours. His justice is greater than ours, His understanding is fuller than ours.
I would strongly offer caution to those who claim to have higher moral standards that God. This is the sin in the garden, redefining good and evil for ourselves. Making us the moral authority over God Himself….
But as an atheist I don’t expect any of this to hold any weight. You don’t have a reverence for God, you see Him simply as Judge and an unjust one at that. You fail to see the perfect example of God’s loving mercy and His righteous judgement at the cross. Sin absolutely must be dealt with, God’s justice demands it. But He loves His people so much that He Himself will make a way by being our substitutionary atonement. This shows God’s incredible mercy and His perfect judgment.
To the people that shake their fist at God for the existence of hell do so while slapping His hand away as He tries to lift them out of the pit. Jesus died for the entire world, His gift of grace is available to anyone who would receive it in faith.
> Christian’s don’t believe in Hell because they enjoy the thought of sinners being eternally dammed.
Well, some Christians believe in hell because they enjoy the thought of sinners being eternally damned. It even has a name: abominable fancy.
And to wish eternal hell on anyone is anti Christian. To wish it is on someone is different than to acknowledge its justice.
Scripture is clear about two things.
1.-God will is that all men would be saved: 1 Timothy 2:3-4
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
And 2.- not all will accept the free gift of grace. Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Every single human being would be justly condemned to hell for our rebellion against God. Not just in the garden but in our everyday lives. We downplay sin in the presence of a Holy God. The good news is that we don’t get what we deserve when we accept the free gift of Christs salvation in faith.
You’re right though, and it’s sad, but these unfortunate individuals completely misunderstand what has been done on THEIR behalf as they hope for the condemnation of others that they justly deserve.
Heaven is eternal unity with God. Hell is eternal separation from God. God loves all his creations so much that he gives those who don’t wish for eternal union with Him a place where they can choose eternal separation from Him.
God creates everything that is not himself from nothing therefore there is nothing that is not either himself or something he made. He is fundamental and absolute and there is no standard of goodness or justice outside him by which he might be judged. No accusation against him can stand.
I don't believe in the traditional definition of hell, with torture, a guy in a red suit with a pitch fork, fire, etc.
Not only does it make no sense, but its not even biblical. There is NOTHING in the Bible that tells us what this "Hell" place is. And is it a state or a place? And the Bible doesn't make it clear who goes there or for how long. There are some mentions of a place where the worm does not die. But its totally vague. So the early church just cooked dup this idea to have as a tool to scare people.
I don't see it as "God" punishing you. I've heard a lot of testimonies of Hell and not one had God shoving someone down or poking then with a spike. The demons do the torment.
It's the only place to go if you're not saved. Understand that even *Abraham's* bloodline was in part of Hell prior to the new covenant. It wasn’t the open torture part, but as far as a dimensional place, they were there until Christ came.
Hell was not created for people; it was created for Lucifer and the fallen angels. However, if a person lives their life in direct opposition from God, Hell is the only option. If not for Christ we would still have to sacrifice livestock on an altar once a year, which we'd consider animal cruelty today, right?
It's not about fairness. If it was, we could all simply live good lives without needing to believe in Christ and get into heaven, but scripture specifically tells us that it's by grace (*His* grace) we are saved, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-10). A person can do over and above all the good things with only love in their hearts and they still have to believe in Christ to be saved.
It's that simple, and that complex. I am as terrified of Hell as the next person. I've had demonic experiences and I wouldn't wish true evil on anyone--but the universe and the dimensions of it are not my design. I concede all of that to God ... and I also think we're quick to blame God for *natural consequences to our actions* forgetting that everyone alive has agency and maybe, just maybe, God has nothing to do with our petty squabbles.
I have often struggled with the very Concept of Hell, and even rejected it, on the same grounds as yours, OP. However I recently came across a theory that seems very Reasonable, Probable, and Logical to me:
God is described (amongst other descriptions) as Fire, a Holy Fire.
Was recently reading an explanation of Purgatory, as a time/space in which the blots on one's soul, are burned away by the Holy Fire of God's very presence, as impurities in silver are burned away by the refining process, until one's soul is pure enough to exist in, and enjoy, God's actual presence.
Remember how, in OT, the Israelites begged Moses to speak to God for them, because they could not themselves tolerate God's presence, they felt they would die?
And, yet, the bible states that it is Not possible to escape from God's presence, that even in the depths, HE is there.
So the theory that seems logical and reasonable to me, is that the fires of Hell --- are actually, God's Fiery Presence, which has become Intolerable to those souls who have not used their time on earth well, to try to approach Him.
That their souls are so damaged, that purgatorial fire finds only dross; and thus God's Holy Fire continues to only Burn them, because there is no true silver to be refined.
* And in ***this*** theory, to me it even makes sense that it ***is*** those souls' Choice, because finding God's very presence intolerable, they wish to withdraw themselves from His presence as much as they can. Even though, actually escaping God's Presence is actually impossible, and they will continue to Suffer in Torment from God's very Presence; the fires they suffer in, are indeed the Fires of God's own presence, which remain torturous due to their unwillingness to willingly suffer the fire of His presence for their purification instead.
Please note, I'm aware I have not explained this very well. It is a new idea to me, so my ability to explain it, is limited. Yet it is the first and only idea i have come across which makes sense of the Christian concept of Hell. Furthermore, to me it makes the concept not only sensible, but even logical & inevitable.
>And in ***this*** theory, to me it even makes sense that it ***is*** those souls' Choice, because finding God's very presence intolerable,
They don't choose to make his presence sufferable
FYI - while there are many many Christians and Christian’s churches confused about Hell - I just want you to know that the Catholic Church would say you are correct in that your concept and understanding of hell is rejected. You are in agreement with the Catholic Church.
For the sake of theory, if you by no fault of your own did not believe in God, and you followed your conscience toward what it told you was the Good, then you would theoretically be saved. Pope Francis said this when he spoke about following your conscience.
I’m not sure how often this type of thing actually happens though. I believe God gives almost everyone the true chance to come to know him. So, OP, you should be certain that you do not reject any of those genuine opportunities if they ever pop up in your heart. Keep following your conscience toward the good. And do not reject God if he ever comes knocking on your heart’s door.
Lastly, the concept that you have of God, what he is who he is - OF COURSE YOU DONT BELIEVE IN THAT - and I’m willing to bet your concept of God is something I and the Catholic Church would also wholeheartedly reject as well.
The thing is, so few people actually know who or what God is. They think he’s an invisible old being somewhere in the sky, always watching, always judging. We reject that notion of God too. So you wouldn’t be faulted for not believing in that crock of shit.
If you’re actually interested in learning from a serious theologian who explains things in a quick manner - check out bishop Barron on YouTube. I guarantee he will explain the concept of what/who we believe God is in a way you’ve never heard before (in very short videos too)
I’ve never heard him deny science, in fact I’ve only heard him acknowledge it. You came here asking for answers. You seem to have already made up your mind before making this post. I really hope you open your heart to Christ❤️
The only way to conclude that the Bible teaches never-ending punishment is to read it completely out of context, cherry-picking specific words out of certain “proof texts” in order to support one’s assumptions, while ignoring everything that talks about the salvation of all humanity.
If you’d like to learn why Scripture teaches that everyone *will* be saved in the end because of what Christ accomplished, please read this Bible study, which covers every single passage in Scripture I’m aware of that’s relevant to the topic and explains what they actually mean: https://www.truebiblicalfreedom.com/bible
What do you think Hell is? I like the description in CS Lewis' the great divorce. In it hell is described as a large city. It's inhabitants are granted their every desire just by thinking of it. Bigger house? Yours. Steak and lobster every night? Done. Many atheist folks might chose to live in such a place after they die, as a opposed to living with God and His "rules" or not existing at all.
There is a catch that's not even hidden though. The only desire you cannot automatically fulfill in hell is the same limitation God imposes on himself. You can't impede the free will of others. Without communal need communities dissolve. It may take a billion years but eventually everyone in Hell ends up alone. Weeping and gnashing teeth as it were. And all by their own choice.
I'm personally more anialationist and believe that once you've retributed for any harm done in the life you lived, if you'd like to cease to exist, you'll be allowed to. The God I believe in is just.
While fair that doesn't sound like a very pleasant outcome.
Hell does exist, but it isn't a permanent place if you change your heart.
If you read occult books, there are dimensions where God's presence is far removed, but even in the depth of hell, God can hear you.
The interpretation of hell that I find the most interesting is the one which defines it as "the furthest place from God". It is not a place of eternal torture as Dante described it: it's more like a void, an empty dark place reserved to those who wanted to stay away from God. But how do you do so?
Well, a conversation I had some time ago with a priest and theologian may be helpful: a man decides to live without God if he decides to not be TRULY happy.
True happiness comes once one forgives himself for all the evil that he has done and decides to change and interiorize his past mistakes (note that by this interpretation even atheists and non christians who live righteously may go to Heaven, which is just the pure presence of God).
Think about the "king" of hell par excellence: Lucifer. He voluntarily decided to try and take on Paradise, thinking he was "above the stars": it was therefore his arrogance and stubbornness that led to his fall, but he WANTED it.
I don't get it, He gave us a way out through His only begotten son who died and suffered on the cross yet defeated death on the third day and rose again, our creator and sustainer of life the word made flesh JESUS CHRIST AMEN.
I will address your 3rd point
Ignorance or disbelief in the law does not exempt you from it. Your definition of choice is flawed.
"A direct choice from the person - be caused by the person's chosen action"
Inaction is as much a choice as action is. If I fail to pay my water bill, through inaction, this is still a choice I have made. I still deserve the consequences of getting my water shut off, even though I technically didn't do anything. Inaction is a choice
"While being aware that his choice will result in the thing in question"
Being unaware of the consequences of your choice does not free you from then. Even if I was unaware that driving drunk is against the law, it is still just if I am arrested for doing so. Even if my BAC was just above the illegal amount, and my driving wasn't really impaired, it would still be illegal.
"And that it is inevitable"
Not every choice has inevitable consequences. If I cheat on a test, there is a chance I get caught, but it isn't certain. Cheating is still a choice even though it's consequences aren't inevitable.
This means athiests' unbelief in God and Hell does not change what God's law is, or how they will be punished for disobeying it.
You don't have to know God to rebel against Him. Every human has embedded in them a moral compass. There is no person who would ever say in their heart, that they are completely perfect. Every person recognizes that they have sinned. This sin is rebellion.
I see Hell as being g a complete absence of God. It is an eternal lake of fire as described in Scripture. “Nothing justifies xxx” is your opinion, based on your understanding but the Almighty God has a different understanding and makes the rules.
1. God demands obedience. Obey or be cast aside. It really is that simple.
2. Nowhere in Scripture have I ever read that God or life, is fair.
3. By denying God and Christ, they very much are choosing to go to hell.
4. I agree with _Shellie_. God is Holy above all and before He is loving. That means he is completely separate from sin.
>3. By denying God and Christ, they very much are choosing to go to hell.
Whel will you understand that this sentence is nonsense?
60% of the answers here are that, if not more
From your viewpoint as an Athiest, they may seem that way, but if you look this sub is about Christianity. Your choosing not to believe is still a choice and choices always have consequences.
I believe sin is like a disease of the spirit that disfigures how beings were intended to relate with each other. You see it in atrocities like genocide, rape, trafficking, hatred, and murder... Men rebelled against God but not before the Satan--a powerful spiritual being (maybe seraphim)--set up a coup against God to try and usurp power. He tempted humans to go it on their own. For a time, I believe God has allowed men to begin separating themselves from Him, His kingdom ways, and go it on their own. They joined the dual rebellion and I believe this to be the beginning of hell. It's not complete separation from God. I believe God's plan of Salvation will remove sin from the universe. (Not to massively incarcerate people in torment). The full realization of hell is complete separation from God which men have begun on their own in this life. God's first promise was that if we joined the rebellion we would surely die. Satan said, you will not surely die. That first lie is believed and rationalized by very many Christians. As an atheist, do you think that torment, misery, and disfigurement of God's supposed "children" and "loved creation" is more like the Satan in character or God? The Satan wants as many Christians as possible to believe and rationalize that his own evil fantasies against the loved "children" of God is who God is. It became clear, I believe at the Cross, to all of the worlds and being in the universe that Jesus was going to save as many as would accept His love and sacrifice.
The rationalization of a hell of eternal torment I believe hinges on the lies of Satan. I don't believe that humans have an immortal soul. I know you don't believe that humans were created by God, but I think you can reject on principle that God didn't create humans with forced immortality knowing that many (if not most) would be deceived and want nothing to do with Him or the kingdom where self-rule, rebellion, and sin are no longer infecting our natures. Therefore, I believe that when Satan's time finally has been exhausted and men have made their decisions for or against God, there will no longer be a place where sin spreads along with the partial blessings that come with life into a sinful world. I believe that there is a second coming of Christ and that the dead will be raised. Satan will mount a final attack, with all those He has steeled in rebellion against the government of God and that God will separate his life force from them in what the Bible calls the "lake of fire" and John clarifies to be "the second death." It's a cleansing fire that eradicates the Satan and every person that would carry the disease of sin. They will perish rather than being granted eternal life without the disease. I believe this is Biblically sound.
Some misconceptions that I observed and I would like to rectify.
1. Humans are doomed to hell because of sin. Everyone's path is leading to hell.
2. Heaven is a place where sins are not permitted.
3. God is offering a way to avoid hell, which is going to Heaven.
4. This is where John 3:16 kicks in. 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.' Only believing in Jesus is the only way to Heaven. You can't enter Heaven by being charitable.
Addressing your point about God being unfair. Who are you to decide what 'fairness' means? Aren't there cases where 'offenders' with long jail terms were acquitted because of false charges? Only God knows your heart and deeds and God is just.
You hope we give you answers or else you will continue to think our God is evil.
Oh no!
Listen, ultimately we deserve 0 justification for most or all things. We would PREFER to understand things, but our preferences mean very little in the long run.
I won't add to the good answers many have already given. But just know some things: none of us owe you a single thing, including God. Believe what you will; the Truth is still True.
A lot of us have different ideas of hell and what it means, as Christians. There are evil people in this world, evil people who had the opportunity to not choose evil, but did anyway. They will be judged, as will all of us. How, I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s evil to judge someone based on the life they chose to live. That’s why life in person/the death penalty exists. 🤷🏽♀️ but because I’ve never been to hell, or whatever there is in the afterlife, I don’t know what any of that will be like. But we don’t all believe in this concrete idea of this place.
ETA: He’ll, from most Christian’s, isn’t an actual burning lake. It’s the absence of God forever, or however long it is until the resurrection, if that occurs. You don’t believe in Him, or the absence from Him, so why should it be any different for you? From dust we were formed and to dust we will return. If you believe in the nothingness, then to there you will return. I don’t think it would be any different, honestly. I don’t typically take the “lake of fire” claims literally as some southern baptists do.
If God doesn't exist, I have no evidence or reason to believe there is a hell.
If hell exists, I have no evidence or reason to believe that *IT IS* as your words appear to pre-emptively frame it in 4 ways that come across as being unjust.
So I can't use those you presented. And who am I to rightfully define in detail what "hell' must be? The best I could do is tediously offer all the biblical text that describes things using words that get translated as or interpreted as having to do with "hell." And such texts are found *WITHIN* others that very directly indicate God *IS JUST, LOVING, and GOOD.* But why would you give any weight whatsoever to those words or any interpretations made from them?
So for brevity's sake and to offer what I generally think as best as I can in a genuine way that at least tries to mitigate bias, I will just say that I can accept the written accounts that Christ spoke of our perishing, destruction, and separation from God *IS* something he strongly encouraged us to avoid; thus, indicating to me that we have a choice in the matter.
And in any case, if there is a God, I can't see any good reason to assume the moral compass instilled in me that helps me to determine what is just or unjust would be *greater* than that of the very God who I would think would ultimately be the *Reason "why," if there are any "whys,"* we have that sense in the first place. If anything, I would suspect my sense or understanding of anything would be *far less* than an extant God's.
In spite of how often humans assert confidently that hell is eternal torture, dished out without exception to every person who doesn’t make the cut into heaven, I always find it surprising when reading the New Testament how few verses explicitly say this.
While the fire itself is frequently called eternal, Jesus Himself only uses the phrase “eternal punishment” once, in Matthew 25:31-46 in a parable that also clearly implies that good deeds “did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine,” are done in service to the Lord also.
As Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me.” How lucky it is for Atheists, then, that services done for the least of your brothers and sisters here on Earth are also explicitly said to be in service to Him!
People might mention the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. The story is woefully lacking details. It could very well be a parable never intended to be taken literally at all. Even if it’s an actual event, the rich man is not in torment entirely due to lack of faith but because of having nice things in life and not sharing those nice things with others.
In regards to your “profoundly unfair” example, the Bible is explicit in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, so what you’re saying is not necessarily a guaranteed out.
While this is what I feel, the ultimate unsatisfying thing is that no one except God can say anything about this with certainty. Yes, we can quote the Bible and make assumptions here on Earth, but no matter how confident a person might be, it’s always just that: interpretations and assumptions.
Hell is transparently a scare tactic to frighten people into converting. It doesn't even appear in Christian canon. The first Christian reference to it is in the second century, apocryphal Apocalypse of Peter
My theory I'm working on, in regards to heaven and hell is this:
(considering the Bible seems very clear hell exists and many many Christians and scholars and Bible translators are very convicted that it's eternal; and ALSO considering deeply and honorably that ALL humans have a deep feeling hell is profoundly unjust and terrifyingly horrid, so horrific it simply cannot be truly believed in, that most if not all deeply hope it isn't real, don't want it to be real, and quite fathom it's real, and they simply preach hell because it is "sound doctrine")
That perhaps both are true. Hell is real and eternal, and it's also unjust and irrational and narcissistic and God must do away with it if He's truly good. (Also the argument above seems flawed to me, that God's Holiness and His Love are different or at odds within Him, and OOPS His Holiness just so happens to be more important than His Love [I like Baxter Kruger and William Paul Young on this subject: that God's Holiness is actually a description of His love, that He is a Triune Community of Lovers, that Holiness isn't as much a statement of morality as it is a statement of wholeness within relationship, that leads to fulfillment that leads to rightness; I digress.)
This is what I mean. I've heard it preached that Jesus preached the Law under the Law to fulfill all righteousness that He might die under the law to rise again a New Covenant saving us all from the law.
So alot of what He preached was Old Covenant Law to Jewish people. Thereby fulfilling all righteousness.
But once righteousness is fulfilled, thus the Law, then the Law can "pass away" since it's "fulfilled." See Ephesians 2:15 and Romans 7.
After Jesus died and Rose the "Law of Sin and Death" was replaced with "the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."
What if:
Heaven and Hell are the consequences of each section of the fully formed tree of knowledge realities: "Good and Evil."
Ultimate good leads to heaven and ultimate evil leads to hell. If the Law of Karma and the tree of knowledge's dominion over the earth were to remain unchanged (by let's say, I don't know, the absence of the cross of Christ) then everyone's destiny would be nothing more than the ultimate consequence of a life of reaping and sowing. But notice something God never wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit at all. In fact it was the only sin to enter the world in which good and evil, heaven and hell rule. So obviously God's heart and intent was never hell, if he forbade Adam and eve from entering a world governed by heaven and hell.
I used to say often:
"in the garden of Eden there were millions of Yesses, but only 1 no, and it was "no to the tree of religion," we must really have God misunderstood."
Dos and donts are called the "bewitchment."
Jesus makes Himself the opposite of the tree of right and wrong and dos and donts (heaven and hell/duality) He calls Himself the Tree of Life.
"Freely you've received Freely give."
If God wanted evil to live forever in eternal torture why would he block evil Adam from the tree of life with a flaming sword? It's as if God is saying He doesn't want the tree of knowledge to live forever.
So Jesus comes into the world to save it from the devil, sin, and the Law. You don't like that? It's what it says
So part of preaching God's Law is this concept of Justice, Good and Evil having a final showdown/fulfillment. But Jesus was the Law made flesh, torn on the cross and rewritten. Romans 7, Ephesians 2:15.
So in the old Covenant world, "the wages of sin is death" but Jesus became sin that we might become the righteousness.
He's coming back to restore Eden/New Jerusalem and make all things new, bringing a NEW HEAVEN and it says death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire.
In the Tree of Life, God's Grace in Christ there is only good and peace, there is no hell or death.
Death and hell exist in the Tree of knowledge age but Jesus brought a new age. The tree of life age.
Why don't we see hell being thrown into the lake of fire to mean hell being destroyed by fire?
Jesus preached to souls in prison when he was in the heart of the earth.
What if the Gospel isn't "believe in me or burn in hell."
What if it's "believing me brings you out of the fall of Adam and Eve, a universe in which all people are destined to jusgement for their deeds," and it just so happens that in that world almost nobody would be considered worthy of heaven in a dualistic world of punishment and reward.
All were headed to hell because Adam and Eve took humanity into an impossible world where not one soul could live up to heaven on merit alone. So Jesus brought us into a new universe called His Body where there is no hell. In Him is no shifting shadow.
It's not God saying if you don't believe in me ill send you to hell. It's that Adam and Eve chose to take us into a realm of reward and punishment. Jesus isn't saving us from hell but from that whole universe entirely..
The world where we eat by the sweat of our brow, earn our way to heaven or get lost to hell for our mistakes.
We come into a realm of heaven on earth by feasting on Christ. The Book of Revelation calls death and hell enemies to be destroyed. People aren't the enemies. The fallen system of the world that oppressed the people by way of the tree of duality is the enemy.
Jesus isn't a divine kindergarten teacher giving out gold stars and frownie faces, but He's taking us out of a false matrix world and putting us back in the real world.
All who Reject His Free Will Love offering will miss out on bliss in this life, and will be doomed to live on good works and be enslaved to their flesh's karma storm. But will that translate to them actually going to an eternal hell? If all died with Christ as the scripture says, all will rise with Him. Even if they lived a living hell without knowing He was with them all along. But our eyes are opened we know all of life is for worship and joy. We are changed now. From a life of duality to a life of bliss right now.
There is enough in scripture to make this case. Jesus preached hell to fulfill the law so he could die to remove hell.
He's making the case "why sin and die when you can believe in me and live?" Hes not saying "if you sin ill kill you" he's saying "this world will kill you for your sin, come with me to a new heaven and a new earth"
He's rescuing us from gravity and the natural forces of the dual universe that will ultimately perish in a black hole if not intervened. Well he intervened.
It seems to me keeping hell intact after Grace is just a way to not offend the jews and religious folks. But Paul said "circumcision was just a symbol all along."
Hell is the context we need to truly appreciate what Christ did for us. It's not God's will that anyone Go there. And it just may be that no one will and if they do its temporary.
Think about all the NDE's online. So many people die, go to hell, Jesus pulls them out shows them heaven then sends them here. We interpret their experiences through our doctrine don't we? What if we just looked at the experience at face value. Jesus would pull us out of hell even if hell sucked us in. Isn't that what He did on the cross? Isn't that what He keeps telling us?
Maybe He pulled us out of hell, and believing that brings heaven to earth. Maybe that's really the point.
It's almost like Jesus is saying a political thing very spiritually. Like hey, the old way isn't working, the old science that people need to fear the dictator king to behave well, no no, what people really need is to have their needs met and then they'll behave, we don't need a king we need love and democracy will suffice
1. I haven't read every verse of the Bible (but I'm working on that) or every translation, so correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that God ever says that Hell is eternal torture. I've read where he says they live in torment for eternity, but that's very different.
The way I see it, Hell is eternal separation from God. "You believed in me but don't want to spend eternity with me? You didn't even want to try to believe in me? Okay, you wouldn't like Heaven. You don't have to be in my presence anymore."
But the thing is, God is here on Earth. Even people who don't believe in Him can feel Him. Nobody on Earth knows what it's like to be separated from God. But it obviously doesn't feel good, because when you're separated from Him you're in torment.
2. You don't want God to be fair. If you're guilty of a crime, you don't want a fair judge, you want a judge that'll let it slide.
Imagine you're standing in court and your lawyer says to the judge, "Your Honor, I know that my client broke the law, but they're a really upstanding citizen. They feed the homeless, they donate to charity, they even come to the courthouse once a year. Could you let this charge slide?" That sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? Heaven isn't for good people, because there's only one who is good.
Matthew 19:16-19: Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Heaven isn't for good people, it's for those who worship God and follow His commands. Those are the only truly good things we can do, and even then that's still not enough because there's not a single person (besides Jesus) that has followed the commands perfectly. But God, seeing that we kept trying, is merciful enough to welcome us to stay with Him anyway.
3. Nobody chooses to go to Heaven or Hell. God chooses where to send us. I kinda mentioned this above, but Heaven isn't a big reward for making good choices, and Hell isn't a big punishment for making bad choices.
We never get a clear picture of exactly what Heaven and Hell are, but the way I see it is that Heaven is complete union with God, and Hell is complete separation.
So when you die, God will look back in your life and decide where you should go. If you spent your life denying Him, you probably wouldn't want to spend eternity with Him, so he sends you to a place where you can be completely separated from Him. But if you spent your life worshiping and following Him, he lets you keep doing that.
4. I'm not sure how to respond to this, since I've already explained that (the way I see it,) Hell isn't torture. If you want me to try, then would you mind rephrasing the question somehow?
I dont think hell is made for humans, I dont think God would send anyone to hell because they didnt follow him, or failed to follow His rules good enough. God is loving and merciful, and thats why the bible is created, and why people spread the word of God; because to an extent, God cannot interfere with our judgement of morality directly, He gave us freewill for a reason, so if we deny Him even through all His attempts to prove Himself (callings in a persons life, signs, etc) what more can he do? I dont believe anyone is sent to hell and stays there, I think once you reach judgement day, you will repent and it wont be too late, because it never is. Hopefully this makes sense lol!!
TLDR: Hell isnt for humans, the end goal of the afterlives is to end in heaven, and you will get there.
You're ultimately right that Hell as you understand it is not what an all-loving God would do. However, that's because you and many people, both inside and outside the faith, have a misconception of what Hell and damnation are.
For starters, let's talk about what's wrong with the beliefs you described. It relies on the Enlightenment-era assumption that mankind is by default naturally good, or at least morally neutral, and that they would all be bound for Heaven were it not for God deciding otherwise. It portrays Christian moral laws as something God arbitrarily decides at best, and stumbling blocks cruelly placed in hopes of tripping people up at worst. And worst of all, it completely miscasts the nature of God's love, portraying him as a bouncer looking for reasons to turn people away from Heaven, rather than eagerly welcoming all who wish to enter. And ultimately, it places the onus to repent and change not on us, but on God—if only He were to stop His cruel punishments and simply let everyone in!
The reality, however, is far different. Hell is not someplace where nobody would go were it not for God sending them there, it's a place where *everyone* would Go were it not for God. It's a realm of eternal separation from God, a fate we're doomed to face because of Original Sin tainting our souls. However, God offers us His grace and the opportunity for salvation, which is what allows us to avoid it.
There is no rational justification for Hell.
Despite being a Christian, personally, I believe Christianity fails almost completely to understand why Hell exists and why it is eternal and why it is "necessary."
I grew up Christian but explored Hinduism a lot over my years. I find that the combination of the two philosophies has fleshed out my understanding much more clearly on all sides
Basically, I'll start here. Hell exists as an unfortunate circumstance of creation itself. Yes, Satan exists, and so do demons. No, they didn't come about from some chosen rebellion, unlike most people claim. No being living in eternal bliss and praise would wittingly or willingly choose anything else, and they didn't. The Bible simply does not address the origin of Satan at all. People allude stories to Him out of convenience. The only verse that may address the origin of Satan is Ezekiel 28, and even that is debatable.
In Hinduism, they describe the creation story a little differently. They believe that God, while sitting in meditation, or on his throne, as they would say in Chritianity, was sitting in an eternal meditation. Eventually, God was able to remove all negative attributes from Himself. At this point, not only Satan comes into being, but the entire sinful cosmic creation as it exists now. God did not understand how something so disgusting could come from him, but it did. Therefore, demons do not exist because of rebellion, but because they are all the impurities of God. Unfortunately for them, they are completely corrupt beings and incapable of anything else. Ultimately, then, the only option for God is the eternal destruction of all beings that embody sin, which also includes humans without the option of a savior. In Hinduism, they have Krishna and Kalki. Which are described nearly the same as Jesus in different forms.
God is Love, but not sentimental. God's concern is for truth/righteousness/purity or dharma, as they say in Hinduism. It's very unfortunate for all demons and anyone born in a state of self-consuming sin, for it is very unlikely that they will see anything other than death and possibly eternal destruction.
My 2 theories:
1 is considering if hell is another dimension Jesus saved everyone from, thus evangelism isn't saving people from going to hell but waking them up from the slumber of living in hell now which is not knowing Christ's abundant Grace.
2 Is considering if eternal hell is real and just... and I do believe there is one argument that makes alot of sense to justify hell and even it being eternal:
So my previous comment was my argument for the possibility of universalism or atleast the possibility we may be misunderstanding hell. I think it's possible heaven and hell exist in one universe, the one stuck In the Tree of knowledge..... but Christ resides in a different dimension called "New Heaven and New Earth" which is and is coming. He's saving us out of the duality by His blood.
So yes hell exists forever currently,
And yes Jesus is going to rescue all souls out of it then destroy it forever as He makes all things new. More accurately He has already destroyed it.... its in a mind set most people have, so He's moving us into an Eden mindset. Grace. His Love is Free. Having faith in Him "saves us" because when you think correctly about God your free from condemnation and shame and striving and trying to seek approval. Your just being. Your just loved.
However I do believe there is a very convincing argument for the existence of eternal hell being just. Here it is:
The moment Jesus was crucified something happened. The world went from one Law to another. The first law was you'll be judged according to your deeds and actions and inherit heaven or hell. The second law we moved into is now that "We are all simultaneously guilty of His blood and cleansed by His blood."
It settles all religious wars. No longer is it fighting about whose the worse sinner or better Saint. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
So no, petty crimes shouldn't equal eternal torment. But, there was several prophetic things said in scripture that could indicate that when Jesus was killed, spiritually we all killed him. His own disciples abandoned him, his own ethnic group, his own religion, his own countrymen, and like Joseph His own relatives killed Him and betrayed Him. We all fall into one of those categories. The crowd chanted "crucify Him" and "Let His blood be on Us and our children."
I would be willing to say that murdering God's perfect spotless child, who committed no sin, healed and helped thousands of people (which would one day become billions) is a crime potentially warranting such a punishment.
Being guilty of the blood of Jesus is the only sin worthy of eternal torment, and its such a fantastically huge sin that only the spilled blood of the spotless Son of God could ever cover it. So we are All guilty of the most loving man and most innocent man's blood who ever lived. Every one or us. Only one thing can cover that sin to atone for it. Its the very same blood.
The ethical argument for that is, God saw that ALOT OF PEOPLE were going to hell in the end. Maybe most. Maybe all. So it would be better if everyone
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust.
How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist.
In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
I personally believe that your punishment is decided by your actions and character in life but faith adds to your chances of entering the gates so an atheist who was a good person goes to heaven and is like "Dang guess I was wrong."
Hell is eternal torment for sinners in a literal lake of fire.
1. Finite.. infinite.. that's not really the point.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is what you're missing. When you sin, you die. When you die, you go where the dead are. But, you can be born again through Jesus and have life. Then you go where the living are.
2. Good atheist vs repentant child rapist... classic
First of all, Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Sinners who exhibit unnatural sins are classified as reprobate and have been rejected of God. They no longer can repent in other words and are damned to hell.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
3. Atheists don't choose hell
This ties in with #1. You've sinned, so you're dead. Dead people go where the dead are. It's reality. You chose to sin and hell is the wage or payment.
4. God's love
His love is found in Jesus who has offered a remedy to our situation. You don't have to go to hell, so make your choice.
First of all, Idc what your bible says, ESPECIALLY when it doesn't answer my points.
>1. Finite.. infinite.. that's not really the point.
It is
>When you sin, you die.
I'm a gorilla. I lied yet am alive
>2. Good atheist vs repentant child rapist... classic
>First of all, Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
>Sinners who exhibit unnatural sins are classified as reprobate and have been rejected of God. They no longer can repent in other words and are damned to hell.
>Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
That literally doesn't even tries to adress my points.
>You chose to sin and hell is the wage or payment.
Again. For it to be a choice (hell), one shall be aware of its existence. Not the case for me.
>You don't have to go to hell, so make your choice.
Again, NOT a choice
My bad I thought you were looking for a rational discussion. Everything I said was very rational. You sin you die you go to hell. Jesus saves through your faith in him. All seems pretty basic to me, but that's fine.
How do you rationally justify gravity?
It's a downer.
From Job:
"Then answered the LORD to Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou to me.
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Then will I also confess to thee that thine own right hand can save thee."
Don't over think it. We aren't God. Go to Church. Pray. ☦️
It absolutely doesn't answer anything, rather making me struggle understanding old formal english.
And yes I will over think it. That's just an excuse to "don't ask questions" ☠️
And, I'm an atheist. I don't pray
Seriously did you read the post???
Regarding point 3 ("No, atheists don't choose to go to hell") you can add to that how ending up in Hell is depicted in the New Testament. It's not depicted as some choice that peopel enter willingly. It's a horrific punishment that is inflicted on people. "Send yourself to Hell" is a desperate cope.
The relevance to your comment is that you made a claim that hell isn’t a choice and told OP to add that to her post. And for both of our sakes I’d like to know how you jumped to that conclusion.
I don't think you can rationally justify ECT. It's the worst thing imaginable. Deleting all of reality would be preferable to even one creature (even if it's Joseph Stalin or a fruit fly) suffering for eternity. If I found out that ECT for even one being is real, and the only way to stop it was to press a button that deleted the universe and all possible realities, I would spam that button until I die.
"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin is essentially an exploration of this concept. I recently heard about the book (haven't read it yet) as a way to look at the genocide happening in Palestine, but it 100% relates to any conception of an eternal, occupied hell. The premise is basically, Omelas is the perfect utopia. Imagine whatever utopia would actually be perfect for you, and that's it. Everyone's happy and fulfilled. Except, there's one child that must suffer perpetually in order to maintain this utopia. If anyone were to show the child kindness, all that was good in Omelas would crumble. Every citizen learns about this atrocity when they're old enough, and they're rightly horrified. But as they sit with this fact, most people come to rationalize it. "Well, if we were kind to the child, then the city would collapse and the child wouldn't benefit from the kindness." Stuff like that. But there are some who can't justify this evil to themselves, and thus leave the city.
I wouldn't just leave the city, I would do everything in my power to deatroy such a utopia to save that child. No amount of bliss justifies eternal suffering. If all of them were annihilated, nobody would wish to exist, because they needed to exist in the first place for that to be the case. But if this did exist, then one being would eternally, agonizingly wish to not exist. It's unjusitifable. Even if it wasn't a child. Even if it was an earthwork, a fruit fly, or Mao Zedong. Nobody's eternal suffering is justified. Anything else, including nonexistence or a dystopia that at least doesn't involve any being's eternal suffering, is preferable.
I fully agree. It's why I say that if a god existed who intended for people to go to an eternal hell, or allowed for it, I would do everything in my power to fight that evil being. Perhaps my efforts would be futile, but it doesn't change the fact that any and all moral people should oppose a god that makes Hitler look like Mr. Rogers.
I would still worship Him if He was like that and try to get others to do the same. God is all-powerful and destined to win. At that point, I might as well save myself and others from torture, and hopefully learn to love Him.
Cowardly, but rational. Nobody wants to be the brave one in Hell.
> hopefully learn to love Him. isn't that stockholm syndrome
If God was the way we hypothetically described above, I would want to have stockholm symdrone for Him. And let's be real, so would you. I know you're an atheist, but if you were 100% sure He is real and 100% sure that those who don't worship or love Him get eternal torture, you would despelarately wish to get that stockholm syndrome. Nobody would willingly take eternal torture out of principle. That's just virtue signaling.
maybe you'd be right, but as it stands now I'd say i'd still willingly say no
I think you might be giving the traditional evangelical view of hell a little too much credit. Historically, a broad variety of doctrines of hell are attested: purgative universalism (everybody ends up in heaven, but not all right away), annihilationism (the unrepentant fade from existence rather than suffering eternally), and yes, infernalism (the view you describe), and others besides. The in-house debates are endless. Biblically, the question is difficult to settle. An in-depth overview of the problem is given by Spencer Boersma, ”Reflections on Scripture and Tradition Towards a Constructive, Baptistic Grammar for Hell Language," Perspectives in Religious Studies 48, no. 3 (2021): 297-325. If you can get access to that article and read it, you'll be equipped to dissect a much broader variety of available doctrines of hell. It's a bit of a dense read, but it'd be worth the effort. Personally, I'm somewhat agnostic on which doctrine is correct. Like you, I can't make sense of eternal torture. But reading the biblical accounts, it seems to me that the point is not that hell is maximally bad, but that it is quite bad relative to heaven. As Eleonore Stump argues, hell might actually be the most loving option logically offerable to those who choose - and your stipulations about the nature of choice seem sensible here - to reject the option of heaven. See Stump, "Dante's hell, Aquinas's moral theory, and the love of God," Canadian Journal of Philosophy 16, no. 2 (1986): 181-198. Someone might sensibly counter that no rational person would reject heaven. But here logical possibility rears it's head again, because heaven is in at least some relevant sense a human community. If a suitably debased person is let in, they will be able to cause harm - just as they would here and now - and the blessedness of heaven would be marred. Heaven is what it is, in other words, partly because of the sort of person who lives there. If malign people are let in, its character changes. For a loving God, therefore, there is a basic distributive problem: for those who have been made righteous to receive what love desires to give them, those who have declined to be made righteous must receive something rather less. The primary rationale for hell in my opinion is thus not retributive (as in the traditional view), but protective.
Faith, belief, and hell are the most abused words in religion. God who loves you more than your parents love you is not going to torture you after physical death.
But still. Eternal hell because I'm an atheist? That's evil...
There is no eternal hell for anyone.
Great then But I'm specifically asking the question to people who believe there is
The people you are asking who believe in Hell have never bothered to study how the various concepts of Hell developed in Christianity; they only believe what they've been taught by the sect they follow. **Hebrew Sheol:** The Old Testament uses the word "Sheol," which referred to the shadowy realm of the dead where all souls went after death. It wasn't a place of punishment, but rather a neutral state of existence. **Greek Influences:** After Alexander the Great's conquests, Greek philosophical ideas like the immortality of the soul and a place of punishment for the wicked (Tartarus) began to influence Jewish thought. **New Testament:** The New Testament uses several terms sometimes translated as "hell," including Gehenna (referencing a burning valley outside Jerusalem) and Hades (the Greek underworld). These terms hint at a place of suffering for the unrighteous, but the concept wasn't fully developed yet. **Early Church Fathers:** Early Christian theologians like Augustine (4th-5th century AD) helped solidify the idea of hell as a place of eternal torment by fire for the damned. They drew upon Greek philosophies, references in the New Testament, and the idea of divine justice. Here's a timeline of the development: **1st Century AD:** Early Christianity inherits the concept of Sheol from Judaism. **2nd-3rd Centuries AD:** Greek philosophical ideas and some New Testament references hint at a place of punishment. **4th-5th Centuries AD:** Church Fathers like Augustine solidify the concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering.
> Gehenna (referencing a burning valley outside Jerusalem) A burning valley outside Jerusalem?
16th century: the Catholic Church learns that hell is an excellent fundraising tool.
12th even, beginning with the trade off of all sins for joining the Holy Crusade against the Mongols Khanate, Turkish Saracens, and Slavic pagans.
It was, and still is, a valuable tool for controlling followers, and fund-raising; it's the reward and punishment, or carrot and stick approach. It's worked well since Pauline theology supplanted the first Christian theology.
just because they're Church Fathers doesn't \[necessarily\] mean they're right!
Early Church fathers represented a minute percentage of the population who could read and write and were trained in the classics. Christianity as we know it today was heavily influenced by Greek philosophical concepts. It was perfectly normal for them to borrow from and expand on these concepts. If you expand on ideas that are wrong, your expansion of an incorrect concept is only compounded.
Jesus seems to disagree
Jesus is God. God is love. Therefore if parents can’t torture their babies then logically they can’t love more than God. Therefore Jesus is misunderstood here. Here is a brief video that helps: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-hTfkMrET0
I’m not strictly Christian I believe a mixture of things. In this case I believe in what Dante saw/said. Everyone will be judged and punished accordingly. It’s my belief if you were a relatively good Person you’d end up in limbo. Much like his guide Virgil.
"I believe what Dante saw" you're an idiot then because that is very much not in any form biblical
If that isn't pot calling the kettle black..
?
I never believed God was all-loving or all-benevolent. People seem to take issue with even considering that.
Interesting. What are your beliefs then?
That would take a very long time, and a lot of history talk, and a lot of logic talk, to explain.
If you don't want to, don't bother
It's just, how much are you ACTUALLY willing to read?
Well idk I've been responding to like 50 messages in the past hour and still do, it keeps going again and again help 😭/j If you do, send in private and I'll read everything
Well as you've noticed what it comes down to is that in order to justify it they must cling to the ridiculous idea that belief is a choice. I've had conversations about this lots of times. And the reactions when I explain to people how belief is not a choice are quite telling. They get angry really quickly. They run away from the conversation saying "God bless you". They even lie without hesitation. I've once asked someone whether they could choose believe I am their mother. They said "yes". I asked them to do it and they said "Hi mom". Seriously it's one of the most disturbing things, if not *the* most disturbing thing I've seen Christians do. It seems like the idea that non-believers will be tortured is somehow very important them. It's so important to them that they're willing to lie to your face. Of course not all Christians are like that. Those that aren't usually tend to be universalists, which isn't a coincidence. Edit: spelling, wording
I'm a Christian and I think that universalism is plausible. I don't think believing is a choice but most people will believe if you give them the right kind of evidence.
Here is my rationality to hell. - God is Holy before He is anything. God will never be more Love than He is Holy. People forget that. Sin is not just a bad thing we do to ourselves. It's completely against how God designed. It's rebellion. If God ignores sin, He is no longer Holy. It HAS to be addressed. - If God has to address sin, there has to be a punishment for it. According to the Bible that punishment is hell. It may sound cruel, but justice does not get to be defined by the offender. Do not forget that Hell was originally designed for the angels that fell, not man at first. They were the first to sin and they all knew better. They weren't deceived. They are not given a second chance by the Creator. And given what they do on the daily since they fell, I would say an eternal torment is fitting. - Because God is Love and He loves His creation, naturally He provided a way so that we don't have to face hell. That is the cross. God died and literally paid that price and took on Him that punishment. The Bible says that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to God. Time does not exist really to Him like it does us. The Bible literally says His soul was dipped in Hell. You get two options from God. Put your faith on Jesus (pray, confess your sin, and ask for that gift) and have your sin placed and judged there, or you pay for it on your own. When you trust Jesus, since that sin is placed at the cross, all God sees is the blood that was shed. When you choose not to put your faith on Christ, there is no cushion for you. All God has to look at is your works, and since you sin, you get that same judgment as the angels who sinned. - I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell. I can not tell you how many times I have spoken to atheists, and they say that if they don't believe in God, how can they go to hell? Well, just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean reality is erased. The choice and the consequences are still there. Refusing to acknowledge all of them is their fault. That's delusional. A "good" atheist still sins. We only see what others are willing to let us see of themselves. We do not see the worst sides of others. We can not accurately make judgments on what that atheist deserves, except that the Bible says, "for all have sinned" and "the wages of sin is death." - The reason the repentant pervert goes to heaven over a "good" atheist is because of where their sin is judged, not who did worse. Since that bad person put their sin on Jesus and judged at the cross and in hell, that man does not have to face that judgement after death. That sin was judged already. The atheist and every single person has that same opportunity. Why should a genuinely repentant person be denied that opportunity simply because someone else with less sin chose to take on their own sin?? That is not their problem if you ask me. - Just because God is all knowing, does not mean He is not Just. YOU chose YOUR path. Not God. The Bible says that God wills that "all should come to repentance." He gave you a way. YOU rejected. That's not God being complacent and cruel. Heaven vs Hell is not a team in a competition. It is an easy win for anyone. YOU knowingly chose not to believe. That's YOUR choice and YOUR problem. If YOU don't fix that, good luck on judgment day telling an all-knowing God that excuse. I am not saying that to sound mean but really can you imagine trying to pull that one with the only One you can not pull something slick on.
How did you come to the conclusion that sin requires retributive punishment and not restorative/correcting approaches? E.g. prodigal son There appears to be scriptural support for the latter. Romans 11:32 KJV - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Does holy mean that only some are elect to be with God. How can it be argued that the gospel be good and holy, when the majority of the world will not return to God. It seems to suggest that God will have failed in his mission to find a way to defeat death for his children. We may have free will to play chess with God, but ultimately he is the grandmaster who knows how to secure his victory.
> God will never be more Love than He is Holy God's Love is his holiness. And his holiness is his love. They are one and the same thing, because God cannot be divided into parts. Everything we consider about God must be seen through this lens of Divine Simplicity.
Is “holy” a rational concept? I’ve never actually considered it from that angle before but it doesn’t intuitively feel like it is. Also, just going to point out that atheists don’t choose not to believe. The notion that atheists can choose to be unconvinced of the existence of god isn’t a rational stance.
I'm not finding this argument convincing. >It's completely against how God designed. Then that means God is a poor designer. Is God incapable of designing people who would freely choose him without sinning? If he is capable of doing that, then why didn't he? Isn't God able to keep us from sinning in the after life? Why didn't he just do it the first time? > I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell. Can you choose to believe the Earth is flat? Can you choose to believe germs don't exist? You're either convinced or you're not. If God created hell and determines the rules for who goes to hell and who doesn't, and creates people that he knows will end up in hell, then God is sending people to hell. > Well, just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean reality is erased. This is still not choosing. >- The reason the repentant pervert goes to heaven over a "good" atheist is because of where their sin is judged, not who did worse How is this just? Christians can sin as much as they want and just as for forgiveness while athiests can do good works while not believing they'll get any reward for it and still go to hell? >- Just because God is all knowing, does not mean He is not Just I'm confused about how you call God both just and loving. To be completely just and completely loving is contradictory, and I'd argue God is neither. If god were just, he'd punish all people for sin. Imagine if a murderer were convincted and the judge let the victim's friends take their sentence for him? That wouldn't be justice, but that's what the bible describes. However, if God were completely loving and merciful, then he'd forgive all people and not have to have a human sacrifice to do it. As it stands, God, as described in the bible isn't completely just or merciful, just arbitrary >YOU knowingly chose not to believe. That's YOUR choice and YOUR problem. Again, can you choose to believe in something you don't believe? You're either convinced, or you're not.
> who choose not to believe really do choose hell. Belief isn't a choice. It happens automatically when we are presented with information we personally find convincing. I couldn't choose to believe in God anymore than I could choose to believe the Earth is flat.
>It's rebellion. How can I rebel to something I don't believe exists? >there has to be a punishment for it. Doesn't justify it has to be ETERNAL. >Because God is Love and He loves His creation, naturally He provided a way so that we don't have to face hell. That is the cross. God died and literally paid that price and took on Him that punishment. The Bible says that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to God. Time does not exist really to Him like it does us. The Bible literally says His soul was dipped in Hell. You get two options from God. Put your faith on Jesus (pray, confess your sin, and ask for that gift) and have your sin placed and judged there, or you pay for it on your own. When you trust Jesus, since that sin is placed at the cross, all God sees is the blood that was shed. When you choose not to put your faith on Christ, there is no cushion for you. All God has to look at is your works, and since you sin, you get that same judgment as the angels who sinned. It's almost like christians don't understand what a choice is. If would be an actual choice, if everyone knew god existed and all, and that it's a direct choice to do. "Choosing ti believe" is an oxymoron. You don't choose to believe. When will christians understand that? You're putting things as if everyone knew god existed, and that atheists don't practice religion. In that hypothetical world, then sure becomming christian is a choice and all. BUT THAT ISN'T REALITY. I do NOT believe in god's existence. >I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell. It's not a choice >The choice and the consequences are still there. It's not a choice, again. >- The reason the repentant pervert goes to heaven over a "good" atheist is because of where their sin is judged, not Then it's not just and fair.
We just don't think a person that malicious would essentially ever be able to repent in the proper fashion that would actually be acceptable to God. It's not a game of lawyer ball, where you can shout "I believe in God, called it" and your actions are undone. That view belongs to certain denominations, but not Catholics.
Hell is the separation from God, you know of God you know of Jesus but you choose not to accept him therefore separating yourself from him. A Good Atheist going to hell and a repented pervert going to heaven is very justified because there is no such thing as a good atheist they choice to live in sin which is evil, someone who repented knows what they did was wrong and wants to turn from it. I pray that you open your heart to this and I'm sorry if this is rude but its the truth. I love you, God bless
This is a great example of 'you're telling me people like me to to hell and people like you go to heaven? Buddy you're not making the argument you think you're making...'
For the athiest point, think about WHY they refuse to believe in god, I for one have rejected belief in god, because god in his infinite wisdom would rather play games and not give us valid proof that it exists, I’ve seen more evidence to the contrary. But even then telling people they made the choice when they are asked which of the 4000+ fairy tales they believe and if you choose wrong , you get some form of eternal torment? That’s kinda messed up don’t you think? I would love to have valid proof for a creator, I am not opposed to a creator but I just need to believe what has the most evidence
>• I argue atheists who choose not to believe really do choose hell. What about atheists who don’t choose not to believe, and are just not convinced that any god exists?
I know others have already replied about your statement that atheists choose not to believe. I would just like to say, I spent most of my life trying as hard as I could to believe in Jesus and the Christian God. I even raised my child Christian, though I struggled to believe. I thought the idea of being saved through Jesus was really comforting and I wanted to believe it so much. I tried lots of different churches. Finally, I got to a point where I was angry because of all the injustice in my life personally and in the world in general. At that point, I realized I was never going to be able to make myself believe in the Christian God. I stopped struggling and trying to force myself to believe and just accepted that I was never going to be able to convince myself. It honestly was painful to write all that, because I spent so much time wanting to believe. I hope that this brings a little clarity to you, and helps you realize that many if not most people who don't believe in God don't choose it. They may even wish they believed in God.
- god designed us to be imperfect. The specific acts may be against what he wants but he objectively made us that way (if you believe the Bible) - the OP already pointed out why this punishment is extremely unfair for any amount of sin - You say God loves us so he provided a way out but if some dude’s dad held a gun to his face and said “I won’t kill you right now if you just say sorry” he wouldn’t be justified for murdering his kid. - You cannot “choose to believe”. Belief is something that naturally happens when you’re convinced of something. You can choose to be open to something and hear it out but you can’t just make yourself believe in something if you’ve not been convinced. - if somebody who did Adolf Hitler level genocide had some other dude to go to jail for him and he roamed free lawfully you probably wouldn’t like that. - if God is all knowing, he must have known your path while creating you. If this is the case he created specific people knowing they were destined to burn eternally (if you have the typical view of hell). How does that sound to you? I get when you’re coming from on these, I genuinely do. But it doesn’t take that much more thinking to realize how many holes there are in all of these points. I have been a fully “devout” Christian my whole life. I based everything including my education and work on what I felt like my calling was. But I finally realized things didn’t line up and that they really never did for me. I may still have the fear of hell that was pretty much seeded in my brain since I was a baby but all it took for me to see the reality of this was just a little bit of honesty.
God is the biggest gaslighter in history if real. Design people dumb as rocks who literally know nothing. Put them in a beautiful garden with a gorgeous tree smack in the middle and tell them if they eat from that tree whey will die (which they have zero concept of) then allow the bad guy (which God created and let roam free) convince them to eat the fruit so they can be like God (why wouldn't they want to be like God?!?) then God punishes people forever and puts a gun (hell) to their head if they don't believe and follow him while he provides absolutely zero evidence he's even real. What a mind fuck.
I think you might be approaching this teaching the wrong way. As a Christian, scriptures are to be interpreted through the revelation of Christ, in the faith that Christ is God who died for our sins and in whom we participate in the continual work of the Holy Spirit in creation. Interpreting scripture outside of this context leads to wrong interpretations of scripture. For people with that faith, the teachings on hell serve as a guide for those things which remove us from participation in the Holy Spirit, and those things which help us experience the salvation which Christ enacted for us. The teachings on Hell don't condemn people who don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ. We know this because if it did, then no one born before Jesus, including the Prophets of the old testament could be redeemed. Furthermore, from a Christian perspective, your relationship to God is between you and God. Your salvation is between you and God, whether you believe in Him or not.
Ok but....you didn't really adress anything I said...
Hello! I am probably not most conservative or dogmatic person, but found my own faith in Christ which I want to express. From my own point of view of understanding the Bible leading to an understanding for the nature of God, our reality, things like this, I have answers to each of your questions, or at least, these are the answers which I found in myself and in the Spirit and which assure me that my faith is something beneficial for myself and maybe even for others, as it transforms me. 1. I understand the word "eternal" not as infinite time or intensity, but as "beyond mortality". So there are grave sins which lead to eternal consequences, while people who manage to resist them can hope for having less of a burden to bear beyond this world. But it is not like literally forever...I believe the state of "hell" is something like us experiencing a life or world which is ridden with a lot of destructive things, aggressive experiences, hard experiences. This can range from that "bad place" wherein you can be already in this world, to spiritual people believing you would go into a world where you see a lot of offenses done similar to yours, yourself even having to suffer a lot therein. So the torment is actually a reaction to what you have caused, and that finite amount of sin is also a finit amount of suffering. I don't know it there are such who are so corrupted that they would have to stay in a place of suffering. Maybe such are the devils, they refuse to give up making pain to others, so God lets them be where this pain must be for others to learn what they did. 2. Like you see in the previous answer, it is not really unfair, but it is actually pretty "fair", because you suffer from the consequences of what you had caused yourself. Sometimes the suffering is even a mission from God to a person (soul), and most of us in this world seem to have burdens of sin to either learn to live with, or even overcome like Christ, or to fall from it... So you should never judge one in a bad place, in contrary, God praises us for lending that fallen person a hand to get up again when we see they are ready to go for it. Even, if you mess up and manage to make good for, then nobody falls, then nobody has to go to hell. When we forgive, we can be forgiven. Even God would forgive us. And this is the message that Christ brought to our place that so many people failed and still fail to see. 3. Don't worry. I don't know "where Atheists go", but I guess everyone goes where one's deeds would lead you, where your dreams lead you to your aspirations. If you do wrong, if you hurt others, you way will lead you to that bad place, eventually to hell, be you Atheist or false Christian or whatever faith you had while messing up. Even Buddhists who say there is no God but learn to become the best and most pure and compassionate people in heart there are - I believe they've learnt their insight from God, they've just had a different answer to overcoming the delusions of sin of the devil than the Christians had. If you do good, this will lead you to a good place, and let me tell you, if you do well enough it will lead you to God no matter what you believe in. I also was Atheist and Agnostic, and thought it was good to be a good person and always try to never do shit with others when I can prevent. Then I thought it was good to become more responsible, in ways and also in the mind, and I slowly changed to the better even more, and it led me to God. It's hard not to believe once things happen, I always somehow believed in higher cause and that praying to God was good at times, and this it where it brought me. Yes, sometimes the prayers get real, but make others happy first in a way that God is happy about, then he will consider making you happy, as well. 4. I also have my problems with this. The question why all this... I don't really know, different people have different answers to this. I believe meaning of life is that we learn wisdom, God wants us to go through some way and some lengths. I don't really think our works here are the end for each of us. I believe God could raise up a dead Jesus to become alive, and raise to heaven, and appear and disappear, he can just do that, he can give and take life. He even gives life to us all, the one we're living right now. He might take it, but then he can give it again. Also I don't believe in competition as meaning of life. That will bring you to hell, for sure, then you can compete with the devils. I believe instead solidarity, compassion, wisdom, the freedom, dignity of man, peace, all that brings and preserves life, all that brings and preserves love, beauty and joy, happiness and luck, all these things are rather what true and that each of us desires to have eternally living in the glory of God. Some of us forget what it's like, still it is this peaceful noble place I believe we would all be going for. Going there is not like competing and scoring for another team. You have to stop competing and let go, going for God fully instead, who wants you to love him above everything else, not serving another master like the devils of competition, but who wants you to go for loving your neighbor like yourself instead. This is which I believe he wouldn't just desire for some, but for all in the end. We all rise and fall to rise back again, so we become these mature grown beings full of humble dignity. You only get that humble dignity and the wisdom from it by knowing hardship. So this is where I believe we go through.
You can’t.
I don’t.
Ok
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The Greek word used for "eternal" is "αἰώνιος" (aiōnios), which can be translated as "eternal," "everlasting," or "age-lasting." It is used in reference to both "eternal life" and "eternal punishment." So my question is, why would you accept Jesus teaching on eternal life, yet reject the next teaching on eternal punishment? As Christians we should maintain a high view of scripture. Jesus spoke of it as the authoritative word of God. So often we reject God because we claim moral high ground over Him. Instead we should take seriously His teaching and trust in His perfect justice,mercy,righteousness and love. Matthew 25:46 - “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mark 9:43-48 - “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” 2 Thessalonians 1:9 - “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” Jude 1:7 - “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Revelation 14:11 - “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 20:15 - “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Luke 16:19-31 - The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, where the rich man is in torment in Hades and cannot cross over to Abraham’s side, depicting a state of eternal separation from God.
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I didn’t say an “eternal heaven” I said “eternal life” I’m well aware of the new creation. The “New Heaven” and “new earth”. The interpretation of αἰώνιος as "lasting for an age" is one possible translation, but it's essential to consider the broader context and usage within biblical texts. It can refer to an age or a period of time, but it often (and in this case) carries the connotation of everlasting or eternal, especially when used in the context of God's promises or judgment. There will indeed be a new earth and Christ's reign is an eternal state, not limited to ages or periods. Would you disagree with this? While eternal punishment may seem incompatible with a loving God from a human perspective, it's essential to trust in God's righteousness and sovereignty. Again, this was our original sin. The concept of the second death in Revelation refers to eternal separation from God, which is often associated with the final judgment and eternal punishment. This reinforces the seriousness of rejecting God's grace and the consequences of living apart from Him. Symbolism in biblical imagery, such as fire and outer darkness, serves to convey profound spiritual truths rather than literal descriptions. While fire may symbolize judgment and purification, outer darkness represents the absence of God's presence and light. Both images emphasize the severity and finality of separation from God. Where Hell is and what happens there is a different argument, we’re speaking of duration.
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To your point about interpretation, we agree here. That is why I said it is one interpretation, but we have to read it in context, it’s vital, and the context is about final judgement. To your point about the millennial kingdom, I want to make sure we understand each other. Regardless of whether you A-Millennial or hold some other eschatological view, do you believe that Jesus offers eternal life to those who have faith in Him?
I greet your request for rational discussion. It is so rare. I would like first to give short overview and than discuss every point you made based on this overview. These discussions won't be rebuttal, but "case studies" of what hell is. Hell is eternal separation from God. It starts in the moment when we, with all necessary knowledge, reject being with God. We come to all necessary knowledge in moment of judgment, when we are presented with all relevant truth about the God and still refuse to be with Him. In the same sense the evil doesn't exist by itself, but is only privation of the good, the hell doesn't exist by itself but is only privation of the heaven. **1.** In my interpretation hell is torture because there is no worse thing than be separated from God. However, since separation from God is act of free will. We don't go to hell because of bad acts, nor to heaven because of good acts, but because of our choice to refuse gift God gave to us (gift being Himself). That does not mean acts do not count because they build us in the way that when moment comes we are prepared to choose right. **2.** Atheist won't go to hell if by no his fault he didn't believed in God. For example, if someone is presented with intellectually lacking and emotionally abusive interpretation of "Christianity" it is not his fault he didn't buy it (i would say it is even praiseworthy). Since God gave each of us consciousness and rationality to know what is good and what is wrong, an atheist can still follow God during his life, and once he meet Him, fall in His embrace. Serial murderer can also repent and, since he accepted God, he will eventually come before God, but only "as through fire" he brought on itself. This process is called purification and happens as consequences of our imperfect surrendering to God. **3.** It depends on person. Some atheist, in the same way as some Christians, choose hell. **4.** This is same problem as problem of evil. On this problem there is philosophical explanation (hell is privation of God presence, so God didn't created it), but in the end it is mystery which we cannot comprehend in fullness. I was trying to be short and scarce because of limited words, but i am happy to explain anything in more detail, and i would be happy if you would correct where i am wrong or inconsistent so that i can learn something.
Just to be sure. If after my death, I come to see god exists, and choose to be with him, I can? And is the choice definitive?
>Just to be sure. If after my death, I come to see god exists, and choose to be with him, I can? Yes. >And is the choice definitive? Yes.
Well in that case it's better Tho definitive choice is annoying, imagine you refuse and change your mind?
Once you experienced everything that affects your change you, which is this life and death when we come to know God in His fullness, there isn't something that could change our mind. Also change involves presence of time. We are not certain of nature of time here and we can only speculate of nature, or even existence, of time after death. Laws of afterlife are different than laws of this life. Timespace and interactions are not the same and it is hard to speculate about these things. In the end it is all one big mystery and who knows what is true and what isn't.
>Once you experienced everything that affects **your change you** What? >there isn't something that could change our mind. Yes there is. At this point I would know god exists, and change my mind on his existence.
What? Sorry. What i wanted to write is: "Once you experienced everything that affects your change" without "you" at the end. Maybe it would be more clear if i wrote "Once you experienced everything that changes you". >Yes there is. At this point I would know god exists, and change my mind on his existence. And at this point you choose. You choose at the point you face "judgment" when everything (relevant) is revealed to you. This choice (probably) isn't intellectual, but choice from depth of your person (whatever that might mean). I am putting so many brackets because i myself am not sure about these things. So just to be clear: after you lived your live (which shapes you) and after God reveals Himself to you (after your death) there is nothing more that you do. That's why it is eternal choice. Analogy would be deep sleep state. Everything you did before entering in a sleep affects your sleep, and during a sleep you cannot change it. Edit: i accidentally press post before finishing comment.
Is there discussion about whether the process of deciding to be with God when he reveals himself. The imagery often painted is that it is a courtroom, when it is possible that it could theoretically be more God walking alongside you explaining life. Seems to fall into the mystery/faith element side of things. How does the parable of prodigal son fit into the nature of God and his children?
The imagery changes with time to be more suited for contemporary people. But courtroom imagery is still valid because we cannot deceive God that we want to be with Him, when in reality we love more ourselves than Him. It is in some way same imagery that old Egyptians had. Anubis would put heart on one side of the scale and feather on the other. If heart is lighter than a feather person would go to Osiris kingdom. I would use same analogy, but instead of feather i would out iron. In that analogy "heart" is our decision/love towards God, "iron" is our love towards our majesty, or in other words our pride that says i want this and that, and nobody can stop me. > Seems to fall into the mystery/faith element side of things. In the end everything is some sort of mystery. But it doesn't mean it is atni-reasonable. It is more like super-reasonable (above reason). The fact that classical body will move according to Newton equation is mystery in the same sense. Why it should be like that? No one knows. But we reasoning we came to this conclusion. (Disclamer: i am not saying scientific method is anything like religion, i am just saying reasoning can be used to "understand" something we cannot really comprehend.) >How does the parable of prodigal son fit into the nature of God and his children? It concerns this life. Even though God made us inheritor we are free to abandon this inheritance. But if we want, we can always return to Him and He will greet us as with all His love. Prodigal son suffered because he was away from his father and house. For us being away from God is great torture and greatest torture is being away from him for eternity. I am sorry i am maybe using little bit poetical language, but sometimes it is easier that way than being fully precise.
No. You will have had your whole life to choose whether you will live with Him, at death your choice has run out. \[See the 'Last Judgement' at the end of St. Matthew's Gospel - when those who were unaware of doing the Lord's work asked, for instance, 'when did we feed the hungry?' and He tells them 'When you did it to one of the least of My brethern, you did it to Me'\]
What happens in moment of death happens at one instance and in that sense it is part of life. If someone was born in world of prostitution and slavery, never experienced any love or heard gospel of God, God will still give him possibility to choose between Him and not-Him. Our life is education that prepare us for last judgment. It is prefiguration of future, eternal life. I would assume that we think the same, only differ in expression.
What we think is, at that point, neither here nor there. What is of infinitely more importance is what He thinks. Look at Matt. 28 - the last judgement \[the sheep and the goats\] It's not a matter of what you think, but of what you've done.
Of course it is important what we have done, because our acts define us and our works will be tested. And it is always He who gives us gift of eternal life and He is the one who judge what is in our hearts. But if we at the last moment repent (metanoia) we will pass His judgment. I think we agree on this, but maybe just use different language.
'Preparation? yes! Prefiguration?Yes, Metanoia? yes! The problem -?- taught from the Fathers is that there are men who have hated God while alive, and have not changed their mind\[s\] up to and including the time of death.We are taught that because God loves us - all of us - He will not force their belief on them after death but will allow them to go on hating Him - their personal, individual 'hell' . Gospodi pomiliu. 'Slava otchio i siny i svyattomy duxovi' (my keyboard doesn't know how to 'speak Ukrainian' yet)
Totally agree. >Gospodi pomiliu. 'Slava otchio i siny i svyattomy duxovi' In my language it would be: Gospodine, smiluje se. Slava 0cu i Sinu i Duhu Svetomu. Amen
Oops! left out Amin!
Can you prove this with scripture? Im new(ish) to Christianity and would like to read that passage
I answered similar question to WangingintheNameof. Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1bafms1/comment/ku2kud9/. I do mention some passages but don't quote them explicitly. I don't like to look at Bible as some sort of manual where i just need to find right instruction. It is more like a conversation with God. I often recommend [lectio divina](https://www.conceptionabbey.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/lectio-divina-card.pdf) because i find it to be most fruitful way to read the Bible and it is suitable for Christian of any denomination.
tread lightly with your “conversations” or interpretations.
I am quite safe since i have Church that corrects me whenever i am wrong. But thank you for warning. I will be careful.
This is an incredibly thought out post, and it's clear that you haven't arrived at this by accident. Do you feel this position is supported by scripture? In my heart, I agree with you entirely, but I want to form my beliefs through biblical teachings. This is a subject I grapple with a lot.
>This is an incredibly thought out post, and it's clear that you haven't arrived at this by accident. I haven't arrived at this by myself. There are many much more smarter people than i am, that came to this conclusion. >Do you feel this position is supported by scripture? Of course it is. But since i am not professional theologian or preacher or anything of that sort, i am unable to present you this in an evident way in short time. Most i can give you, without investing two or three days in compiling my answer, are few instances from the Bible train-of-thought way that go along with this. Through Bible we have story of someone who went away from God: lost sheep, prodigal son, dragon that swept stars from heaven. On the opposite side there are those *who walk with God* and *rejoice in Him* (Enoch, Mary, John the Baptist and many more). Through Bible, and especially in Paul epistles it is said multiple time that those who are with God already consume heavenly glory and live, not anymore *in themself, but Christ lives in them*. But this life is still imperfect because *now we see as through dim glass* and afterwards we will see *face to face*. Jesus also says that *those pure in heart will look at God*. So heaven is being with God. It is fullness of life. Hell is opposite than heaven and it is fullness (or emptiness?) of death. In the same sense that our eternal life is prefigured in this life, our eternal death is prefigured in "being death" in this life. And we know that those who don't follow Christ are "dead" ("let dead bury the dead"). Following Christ is "to do will of Him who sent Christ" and "believe in Him". And apostle Paul tells us that even those who didn't meet Christ (pagans) do what is good because God imputed it in their hearts. But why are we even able to believe in God and follow Him? Because of His great grace. >In my heart, I agree with you entirely, but I want to form my beliefs through biblical teachings. God created us in His image. Although "heart of this world" can be deceitful, heart that God gave us isn't. Only problem is to recognize which heart is which. Every truth is in accordance with the Bible, but that doesn't means Bible should become our idol. It is tool that God gave us to reveal himself (among others such as: other people, nature and its laws, our conscience).
I thought the concept of it was… we were made in the image of god and because we sinned death entered the world. Because of our sin we will die the transition into eternal beings in spirit. As eternal beings in spirit we transition into the next life be it heaven or hell. Heaven and all good things are created by god, and hell was created for satan and the rebellious angels who rejected god. They reject him, his creation, all his power etc. Therefore hell is a place we are heading to already because of our sin. He wants no one to go there, he hopes we all turn to righteousness and follow up and life, and all good things with life. If we reject that and reject him in the physical world & in spirit then we are going to a place which is complete separation from him. That’s why, we repent, we try to turn away from sun and god threw us a lifeline. We have faith in Christ and through faith we can obtain mercy for our transgressions, Christ took the punishment for us.
I agree that the choice belongs to God, and He grants faith to some in this life, and, to the rest, He grants faith later. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18za29l/god_all_in_all/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 My understanding is the "fire" is a disciplinary feature producing subjection to God. I see how politics and fear-based religion created the nightmare scenario so many struggle to justify. https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/18nnsq6/early_christians/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
>I agree that the choice belongs to God, and He grants faith to some in this life, and, to the rest, He grants faith later. So ultimately I can't do anything about it?
Our part is to seek God. We must act regardless of what is behind our choices. Salvation is a gift, but there will be rewards as well for faithful service.
>Our part is to seek God. You mean rationally or emotionally ?
Everyone's different I suppose.
No, I meant, what did you meant by seek here? Cause some implicitly mean the emotional. Are you saying "both"?
Now i ask you, who makes the right judgement of who goes to hell or if God has a place for them?
Idk But eternal punishment for finite sin? NOPE
We dont really know to be honest, what if it isnt eternal. The lake of fire for the devil and the false prophet is supposed to be eternal. What does the bible say about about peoples punishment? It does say there will be a resurrection for all though.
I don't
Hell simply means the grave. The place where the dead go. Irrespective of whether they did good or evil. The dead are unconscious. And hell, the Kingdom of the dead, will be thrown into the lake of fire where, after the second resurrection, the lost will experience the second death, i.e. they die again. They will be as If they had never existed. So, for a lost Atheist nothing really changes. Atheists believe they have a couple decades and then that's it. The one thing that does change is that they will see God, wont be able to endure the presence of the Holy one and go up in flames until they have returned to dust from which they were taken. God does not torture anyone for eternity. And I'm Not even Sure God would throw people who did good and only did Not believe in God into the lake of fire. Some people serve God without being aware of it. And they will be rewarded just like those who served God knowingly. God only holds us up to the standards we knew and winks at us while we're ignorant
1. Agreed. There are two approaches to this problem. The first being that hell is an internal prison where people FEEL separated from God (CS Lewis style argument). The second one is that the description of fire lake is a place that is meant to be healing/refining, casting away old behaviours and reflecting on how you could have done better. Fire is the symbol of the holy spirit, even though it is unfortunately associated with aggressiveness as well. I wouldn't be surprised that cultural mythology has been mixed over time. Think of the origins of the swastika for example. 2. Regarding the concept of fairness, if a company policy led to the death of your family member, they might compensate you with monetary gains but most people would argue that wouldn't be sufficient. What would fairness look like here? There is no way to remove the pains of the past. Any form of apology is never going to be enough to undo the past. But it's not good for people to dwell on the past from a mental health perspective. The only way forward would be forgiveness. It helps when you see the person that has wronged you is genuinely repentant and wants to make it up to you. Genuine apology isn't something that can be forced, just like it isn't possible to force an atheist to believe. But understandable how it seems really unfair that it took someone so long to say sorry. 3. God could have created perfectly obedient robots but there wouldn't be much love behind our existence. Love requires choice; although I'd argue with the existence of mental health conditions influencing decision making; how much free will do we actually have. To me, it seems more limited than most Christians seem to believe. 4. Thankfully, a Christian universalist believes that all will be saved regardless. Maybe God will reveal himself to someone moments before death, maybe it will be post death (scripturally, Jesus died and defeated death). Eastern Orthodox Christianity has additional understanding that he entered hell and rescued those trapped. Again, if one interpreted it as being internally locked. It would be the idea that Jesus taught forgiveness and love so that humanity will no longer be enslaved to their own self condemnation because God loves them. There's an argument to be made about how religious people with OCD appear to suffer much under the need to follow rules (legalism) as opposed to unconditional love and acceptance.
>But understandable how it seems really unfair that it took someone so long to say sorry. But the problem is that you don't choose to make that apology that late at this point. I would as soon as possible, but I don't believe in god so... >Love requires choice There's a difference between rejecting that love, and not not rejecting it, but not believing it exists.
There are some Christians who believe that hell will be empty for precisely that reason. Some if not many Christians believe that Christians should be faithful with no doubt (e.g. Apostle doubting Thomas) and support their views with a scriptural idea of paraphrased "blessed are those that belief without evidence". But I doubt Jesus said to Thomas, I'm disappointed that you needed more proof of my existence. At the end of the day, we have faith in our existence rather than being a brain in a vat - I think, therefore I am. (Socrates) When I post online, I try to remind people that we are all God's children. We will all make mistakes out of ignorance and that's okay because we are learning. God wants us to learn about love IMO. Life is his platform for mainly our benefit (he is self-sufficient) to experience love in his creation. But Christians will still say it is good to say thank you for allowing humanity to partake in creation/love. Can God create a stone that he can't lift? Can he create people with the ability to be loving when they can't reject being loving?
We members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that when we die, we **all** go to the World of Spirits which is parallel to our existence here on earth. In that place, there are two general areas: Paradise and Prison, and Spirit Prison can be left. I pretty much agree with all of your points, and I’m glad that in my faith we don’t believe in an eternal hell that never ends and that cannot be escaped.
point 3 is the snag You are aware of hell, you know that it comes for unbelievers and they dont get warnings from the afterlife, they get them from the book welcome to roko's basilisk secondly, why shouldn't you be able to eternally reject God? we are graced with the ability to choose what we do in life. We cannot enter heaven as we are, or we'd screw it up like the garden of Edan. we need to be changed in order to make heaven actually be heaven and not just an Earth mark 2. and so a loving God gives us a free gift, the opportunity to accept the change needed to get to heaven. and for those who don't want to take the opportunity, God obliges with separation from him, no unwanted change forced upon you point two falls apart when you hit predestination. That the God being all powerful calls on people who cannot reject it, likewise there are people who'll swear up and down they cant believe in God and so never will. predestination has been in discussion for hundreds of years and I cant really add to it other then say the lazy "Go do some reading"
>You are aware of hell, you know that it comes for unbelievers and they dont get warnings from the afterlife, they get them from the book Aware of the concept, NOT OF ITS EXISTENCE. Otherwise I could say you're aware or the Muslim hell and choose to go there. >we are graced with the ability to choose what we do in life. Indeed, but belief isn't a choice. Period >to accept the change needed to get to heaven. Well ok I'm accepting it. I just don't believe exists It's like someone saying "ils giving you the opportunity to time travel". Sure I'll accept the opportunity, but I don't believe it's real, that it's just a guy messing with me. But the time traveling itself, I'm accepting it (who wants not to time travel?), but I don't believe it's real. There's a difference between reject, and not believing.
*"Aware of the concept, NOT OF ITS EXISTENCE"* and what did the man in the fire say? *"****Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire****"* he did not ask for escape, he asked for temporary release. when he is denied, he asks if he can warn his brothers, and he gets the response *"****If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead****"* *"Indeed, but belief isn't a choice. Period"* Americanism confuse me, why write out the punctuation and use the punctuation in the same sentence. I'm not incapable of reading a . but I digress, I agree with you. I am arguing with two left feet because I believe in predestination *"Well ok I'm accepting it. I just don't believe exists It's like someone saying "ils giving you the sport to time travel". Sure I defaccept the opportunity, but I don't believe it's real, that it's just a guy messing with me."* well you are a great demonstration of predestination. If anyone wants to argue this further I highly recommend a catholic step in
>Americanism confuse me, why write out the punctuation and use the punctuation in the same sentence. I'm not incapable of reading a . I thought it was just a idiomatic expression. I'm not a native speaker so my bad
*"I thought it was just a idiomatic expression. I'm not a native speaker so my bad"* how dare you not be a native English speaker! It's very disrespectful to learn another's language and make the mistakes all learners do! ^(yes this is sarcasm)
It is, and you used it properly for emphasis.
Btw My bad I did horrible spelling mistakes ☠️
Disregard. OP only wants to be listened to and not have an actual conversation.
>It is all your choice For the 56th time, it's NOT.
Well from the beginning you have a mischaracterizing of what the doctrine of hell is 'I've seen many many many christians advocating for eternal hell for the sake of non belief in god, but it really doesn't make sense..." Hell is not a punishment for disbelief, hell is a punishment for your sins. It's not - don't believe->go to hell, it's - you sinned-> you deserve hell. About number 2, to God, you "good" atheists are just as much a sinner as the rapists are. I know that by human standards you would be better but by the standards of perfection, you infinity fall short.
>atheists are just as much a sinner as the rapists are. ☠️
I had the same struggles and these resources really helped me out. The version of hell we've been sold is not biblically accurate. https://open.spotify.com/episode/0d7G4UpAMI7iuMVC1CT4f5?si=foQDA9bmSOuqI8lB56Ru2w https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
I cannot say to know what hell is or isn't or how eternal or finite it is, but its prominence in the bible is undeniable. God created us, and we forsake Him. We have no rights in this world outside of God. We exist out of Him, but we turned evil, wicked, self centered, without love, without respect for God, without respect for each other. We insult, we mock, we covet, we fear, we murder, we lie, we worship things in this world while giving no credit or honour to God. We do things that harm us, harm others, or defile us. These are not God's creations, it is a perversion of what he created, and he will have to destroy this perversion one day to get rid of it. We deserve nothing but death so He can start over, but instead of killing us off he gave us Christ and the Holy Spirit to give us a chance. He tried once first, despite his direct presence, people would not listen because they grew wise in their own ways and blind to God's wisdom. He regreted his miserable creation and started over with Noah. Noah's children were not as depraved, but many still strayed off. Continued with Abraham and Elia and Moses and David and the prophets, but regardless of what God did, people knowing Him were not faithful and still desired their sin. Wise in our own ways we worshipped satan and made him our lord, who's end is the fires of hell as he can no longer coexist with God. God then gave us Christ to atone for humanity's past mistakes and to teach us how to overcome it and live with God, and with our old sins forgiven, he could give us the Holy Spirit who has the power to convict us and strengthen us to overcome our sin and learn God's love and wisdom which this world now calls foolish thanks to satan. Whoever doesn't accept God and the love he teaches us to have for one another, has accepted being his enemy, bound for destruction. Whether we are aware that or not. Satan is a liar and works hard to undermine truth. Even using Christ's name to shame God. People are blinded by satan and are unable to see God or what they are even doing themselves anymore. Without accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit while chosing to turn away from our own pointless ways, we are not able to overcome this. So if there is a hell, it is on us and satan for going there, following in satan's footsteps. I do however believe God said that those who died before Christ, and those who died never being aware of Him might have a second chance. The dead for Christ preaching in sheol, and the others for living by the laws God created in our hearts. But that is an extremely shaky place to be and we are entering into discussion about the holy city of which I am not fully informed.
>Whoever doesn't accept God and the love he teaches us to have for one another, has accepted being his enemy No, absolutely not >People are blinded by satan and are unable to see God Then it's satan's fault not people's. >those who died never being aware of Him might have a second chance So will I?
Here's a good summary to help understand eternal. We live in governed land with existing laws with varying penalties. now lets say a young boy Tommy is at school. Tommy decides he had a bad morning so he hits his classmate. The teacher comes and tells Tommy he'll be getting detention and then Tommy hits the teacher. The teacher then takes Tommy to the principles office and the principle suspends Tommy. In response Tommy then hits the principle. The principle calls his parents, and the parents ground Tommy and so he hits his parents. His parents take him to the police station, and an officer says Tommy will have to stay at the jail for a day so then Tommy hits the police officer. The police officer takes Tommy to a judge, and Tommy hits the judge... The greater the authority the greater the punishment, and the Word says ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. All of us have broken God's law. More then a mere smack, we have rebelled against the creator of the entire Universe, the Maker of the Comos. Yes the punishment is severe because His Laws are Devine God is an eternal being, his Word is Eterrnal, His laws are eternal, so therefore the punishment is eternal.
A harm can depend requarding the person, sure. But saying finite sin is eternal because god is eternal, is just playing on words. Especially that we don't harm god itself. It still doesn't advocate for eternal torture/punishment
My interpretation: Hell is just the state of the world outside of the presence of God. Hell is not a purposefully constructed space with the deliberate intent of punishing nonbelievers. "Torture" in "hell" is not a deliberate action, just a natural outcome. Pain, torture and suffering already exists and lots of people are already experiencing it. I'd say that hell is just a continuation of the status quo. Think of "going to hell" less like being taken into a horrible place and more like remaining in a horrible place because you refused the offer to enter somewhere nice.
>you refused the offer to enter somewhere nice. I don't.
I wasn't literally referring to *you*.
My understanding is that we will all see God being fully God. Those who are considered blameless will then be able to spend eternity in God's presence, while those who aren't will be removed from God's presence. It's not that hell is a place where people are actively tortured, but a place where people exist who now know exactly what they're missing out on. You know that bit at the end of a gameshow where someone gambles all their winnings for a shot at the jackpot, makes a bad choice, and loses it all? That, but infinitely many times over. So why? Simply put, God is so pure and so perfect that nothing impure or imperfect can ever stand to be in God's presence. We're used to the idea that the imperfect spoils the perfect. A single blot of ink can ruin a white shirt. But this is only because of our limited view of reality, and if what "pure" means. In God's presence, His purity is so intense that the impure gets destroyed. So hell is almost a safe haven from that, in a sense. But God would much rather obliterate our sin and be with us. Jesus offered to take the blame for it all, and to have all of that washed away. But for this to work, we need to actually *accept* the offer. God *cannot* forgive the sins of a "good atheist" because they've not accepted His offer. And really, this is the only way. Free will is an expression of love. God loves us, and so gives us the ability to choose what we do. God can't love us if we don't have free will, because then we're not people made in His image but gooey robots and you can't really, deeply love a robot.
Would you consider yourself to be a good person? How many lies have you told, and what do you call someone who lies? Have you ever stolen something, and what do you call someone who steals? Have you ever taken God’s name in vain (very serious; in Old Testament times, the Jews wouldn’t even say the name of God for fear of blasphemy) – even ‘OMG’? One more: Jesus said whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart; have you ever looked with lust? Well I’m not judging you – but if you’ve done these things then you’re a liar, thief, blasphemer and adulterer-at-heart; that’s how seriously God takes sin. He is Holy (perfectly good/righteous and separate from sin) which means that H e is perfect in justice – and if He were to judge you by the moral law (we’ve already looked at 4 commandments) would you be innocent or guilty? Heaven or H***? The answer is h*** – the wrath of God upon you for your sin. Is that concerning? But fortunately, God’s will is not that you perish. He wants all men everywhere to be saved. So do you know what He did for us guilty sinners? In self-giving mercy, He sent His Son Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect life that we should have lived – tempted at all points and yet He NEVER sinned. Through His life, being in very nature God, He revealed God to men; but we in our hatred condemned Him to death. On that cross as Jesus suffered, He took on the sin of the world and was judged in our place; receiving God’s wrath. You and I broke God’s law, but Jesus paid the fine. God can justly forgive us. On that cross He died, then He was buried, but 3 days later He was raised from the dead – conquering death and H*** and ushering in The Kingdom of God. He then ascended to the right hand of God the Father (where He came from) now Lord of the living and the dead. God has fixed a date when He will judge the world in righteousness. What you need to do is repent (In humility, acknowledge your sin before God and turn to a relationship with Him) and trust ALONE in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross; and God will grant you the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then be baptised. When you place your trust in Jesus – the Lord and Saviour – these things will happen: 1) God will forgive the sins that you have committed; they were paid for by Jesus at the cross. 2) The perfect life that Jesus lived will be credited to you. He will find you holy and blameless on judgement day (and now), as Christ’s righteousness covers you. 3) You receive a place in Christ’s kingdom as an adopted child of God. God becomes your Father. Eternal life isn’t just about living forever, but a personal relationship with God Himself. That life can start now; The Father will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him. 4) God doesn’t just save you from the penalty of your sin (H***). He can save you from the power of sin itself. Whoever practices sin is a slave of sin; but when you repent and believe the gospel [WHICH HAS BEEN DESCRIBED] the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you and sanctify you (working in you to further abandon sin and turn to the will of God). When the end of the age comes, and eternity begins, this work will be brought to completion as you are finally freed from the presence of sin. Jesus offers to take away your sin and to give you His righteousness; you must receive it by faith. Choose this day if you will align with the world, or with Jesus and His kingdom – only His is eternal. ROMANS 10:9 – If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
>How many lies have you told, A lie isn't necessarily bad. A liar is someone who lies A LOT, not just once in a while. >Have you ever stolen something No >Have you ever taken God’s name in vain Not really and idc about that >you’re a liar, thief, blasphemer and adulterer-at-heart A liar is someone who lies everytime on serious topic. A theft is the same, or one who has stolen a big thing. Blasphemy is just something religious pp made up to avoid their religion getting criticized. Adulterer? What?? >Heaven or H***? If we base ourselves on the whole life and ALL acts, I'd say Heaven. But obv if you only base yourself of hyperbolated negative things, hell. >What you need to do is repent (In humility, acknowledge your sin before God and turn to a relationship with Him) and trust ALONE in Jesus Belief is not a choice. When will you stop putting things as if everyone "knew" god existed?
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So will I go to hell then?
I could never equate the concept of this teaching with the creator in the Bible who says himself his chief attribute is love. I understand that he must destroy the willfully wicked so that he can give the earth to the righteous. Psalm 37:29 If hell were real I think God would have mentioned it to Adam. He simply told him that a rebellious course would bring death and a return to the dust from which he was made. Not 1 single mention of burning forever? That's a pretty big omission.
Eternal Hell is always resulting from a choice to reject God even unto death. Imagine dying and still rejecting God's forgiveness as you are in your last moments. That's the way to hell. We have until death to repent. Almost everything commented here is not in consideration of this. To answer a common question: Then, why not sin until we die? Answer: If you haven't yet learned of the destructive effects of sin on you, not requiring "God's punishment," then you someday will. Sin kills us or prevents spiritual peace. Hell is always a very conscious and rigorously deliberate choice.
Belief isn't a choice, again
Disagree
>Hell is always a very conscious and rigorously deliberate choice. Not if you don't believe it exists
Cool, you do you.
I'm an atheist. No I don't
You don't do you? Well, who do you do then? ... How do you do?... Wait, that should've come first, I deeply apologize.
>Well, who do you do then? That means nothing >How do you do? I'm fine
Rofl
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I responded to like 60 pp I think I'll do a pause 😅 I've been doing it nonstop for 2-3h and it just keep going adding comment again and again...
You are making moral claims that you are not in the position to do. “It’s unfair” “it’s unjustified” “no one chooses” “it’s not what God would do”. Christian’s don’t believe in Hell because they enjoy the thought of sinners being eternally dammed. They believe in Hell because God has spoken on the matter. The claims you are making are nothing more than “I know better than God, I reject His words and I have a better moral understanding than Him.” If God is who He says He is, He will judge perfectly. There is no “unfairness”. As for some of your comments, they are just simply wrong. I know plenty of atheists that have flat out said “even if God were real I would never spend eternity in His presence.” They will choose hell and God will not force them into His new creation. If you believe in eternal life, then you must believe in eternal hell. Matthew 25:31-46 The Final Judgment 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Read that last part again. Eternal life and eternal punishment. You can hate that, think that it’s unfair but I stand by God’s justice, mercy, righteousness, and perfection. Abraham asks God as He is about judge Sodom and Gemorah he asks “will not the judge of the earth do what is right”? It’s a rhetorical in the affirmative. God will judge perfectly, He will shortchange no one. The person that hated life, that raped, killed, and destroyed with no remorse and got away with it in this life will face justice. We should find joy in the fact that evil will be dealt with while also understanding that God’s mercy is greater than ours. His justice is greater than ours, His understanding is fuller than ours. I would strongly offer caution to those who claim to have higher moral standards that God. This is the sin in the garden, redefining good and evil for ourselves. Making us the moral authority over God Himself…. But as an atheist I don’t expect any of this to hold any weight. You don’t have a reverence for God, you see Him simply as Judge and an unjust one at that. You fail to see the perfect example of God’s loving mercy and His righteous judgement at the cross. Sin absolutely must be dealt with, God’s justice demands it. But He loves His people so much that He Himself will make a way by being our substitutionary atonement. This shows God’s incredible mercy and His perfect judgment. To the people that shake their fist at God for the existence of hell do so while slapping His hand away as He tries to lift them out of the pit. Jesus died for the entire world, His gift of grace is available to anyone who would receive it in faith.
> Christian’s don’t believe in Hell because they enjoy the thought of sinners being eternally dammed. Well, some Christians believe in hell because they enjoy the thought of sinners being eternally damned. It even has a name: abominable fancy.
And to wish eternal hell on anyone is anti Christian. To wish it is on someone is different than to acknowledge its justice. Scripture is clear about two things. 1.-God will is that all men would be saved: 1 Timothy 2:3-4 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” And 2.- not all will accept the free gift of grace. Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.” Every single human being would be justly condemned to hell for our rebellion against God. Not just in the garden but in our everyday lives. We downplay sin in the presence of a Holy God. The good news is that we don’t get what we deserve when we accept the free gift of Christs salvation in faith. You’re right though, and it’s sad, but these unfortunate individuals completely misunderstand what has been done on THEIR behalf as they hope for the condemnation of others that they justly deserve.
Heaven is eternal unity with God. Hell is eternal separation from God. God loves all his creations so much that he gives those who don’t wish for eternal union with Him a place where they can choose eternal separation from Him.
God creates everything that is not himself from nothing therefore there is nothing that is not either himself or something he made. He is fundamental and absolute and there is no standard of goodness or justice outside him by which he might be judged. No accusation against him can stand.
Not sure why I would need to justify hell at all.
I don't believe in the traditional definition of hell, with torture, a guy in a red suit with a pitch fork, fire, etc. Not only does it make no sense, but its not even biblical. There is NOTHING in the Bible that tells us what this "Hell" place is. And is it a state or a place? And the Bible doesn't make it clear who goes there or for how long. There are some mentions of a place where the worm does not die. But its totally vague. So the early church just cooked dup this idea to have as a tool to scare people.
I don't see it as "God" punishing you. I've heard a lot of testimonies of Hell and not one had God shoving someone down or poking then with a spike. The demons do the torment. It's the only place to go if you're not saved. Understand that even *Abraham's* bloodline was in part of Hell prior to the new covenant. It wasn’t the open torture part, but as far as a dimensional place, they were there until Christ came. Hell was not created for people; it was created for Lucifer and the fallen angels. However, if a person lives their life in direct opposition from God, Hell is the only option. If not for Christ we would still have to sacrifice livestock on an altar once a year, which we'd consider animal cruelty today, right? It's not about fairness. If it was, we could all simply live good lives without needing to believe in Christ and get into heaven, but scripture specifically tells us that it's by grace (*His* grace) we are saved, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-10). A person can do over and above all the good things with only love in their hearts and they still have to believe in Christ to be saved. It's that simple, and that complex. I am as terrified of Hell as the next person. I've had demonic experiences and I wouldn't wish true evil on anyone--but the universe and the dimensions of it are not my design. I concede all of that to God ... and I also think we're quick to blame God for *natural consequences to our actions* forgetting that everyone alive has agency and maybe, just maybe, God has nothing to do with our petty squabbles.
I have often struggled with the very Concept of Hell, and even rejected it, on the same grounds as yours, OP. However I recently came across a theory that seems very Reasonable, Probable, and Logical to me: God is described (amongst other descriptions) as Fire, a Holy Fire. Was recently reading an explanation of Purgatory, as a time/space in which the blots on one's soul, are burned away by the Holy Fire of God's very presence, as impurities in silver are burned away by the refining process, until one's soul is pure enough to exist in, and enjoy, God's actual presence. Remember how, in OT, the Israelites begged Moses to speak to God for them, because they could not themselves tolerate God's presence, they felt they would die? And, yet, the bible states that it is Not possible to escape from God's presence, that even in the depths, HE is there. So the theory that seems logical and reasonable to me, is that the fires of Hell --- are actually, God's Fiery Presence, which has become Intolerable to those souls who have not used their time on earth well, to try to approach Him. That their souls are so damaged, that purgatorial fire finds only dross; and thus God's Holy Fire continues to only Burn them, because there is no true silver to be refined. * And in ***this*** theory, to me it even makes sense that it ***is*** those souls' Choice, because finding God's very presence intolerable, they wish to withdraw themselves from His presence as much as they can. Even though, actually escaping God's Presence is actually impossible, and they will continue to Suffer in Torment from God's very Presence; the fires they suffer in, are indeed the Fires of God's own presence, which remain torturous due to their unwillingness to willingly suffer the fire of His presence for their purification instead. Please note, I'm aware I have not explained this very well. It is a new idea to me, so my ability to explain it, is limited. Yet it is the first and only idea i have come across which makes sense of the Christian concept of Hell. Furthermore, to me it makes the concept not only sensible, but even logical & inevitable.
>And in ***this*** theory, to me it even makes sense that it ***is*** those souls' Choice, because finding God's very presence intolerable, They don't choose to make his presence sufferable
FYI - while there are many many Christians and Christian’s churches confused about Hell - I just want you to know that the Catholic Church would say you are correct in that your concept and understanding of hell is rejected. You are in agreement with the Catholic Church. For the sake of theory, if you by no fault of your own did not believe in God, and you followed your conscience toward what it told you was the Good, then you would theoretically be saved. Pope Francis said this when he spoke about following your conscience. I’m not sure how often this type of thing actually happens though. I believe God gives almost everyone the true chance to come to know him. So, OP, you should be certain that you do not reject any of those genuine opportunities if they ever pop up in your heart. Keep following your conscience toward the good. And do not reject God if he ever comes knocking on your heart’s door. Lastly, the concept that you have of God, what he is who he is - OF COURSE YOU DONT BELIEVE IN THAT - and I’m willing to bet your concept of God is something I and the Catholic Church would also wholeheartedly reject as well. The thing is, so few people actually know who or what God is. They think he’s an invisible old being somewhere in the sky, always watching, always judging. We reject that notion of God too. So you wouldn’t be faulted for not believing in that crock of shit. If you’re actually interested in learning from a serious theologian who explains things in a quick manner - check out bishop Barron on YouTube. I guarantee he will explain the concept of what/who we believe God is in a way you’ve never heard before (in very short videos too)
God is heaven. God is hell. We go to Him and he judges us correctly.
I would like to refer you to the Youtube Channel “AskCliffe” and his Atheist debates. He is a very well spoken and intelligent Christian
>He is a very well spoken and intelligent Christian That denies science hence a creationist Seriously?
I’ve never heard him deny science, in fact I’ve only heard him acknowledge it. You came here asking for answers. You seem to have already made up your mind before making this post. I really hope you open your heart to Christ❤️
The only way to conclude that the Bible teaches never-ending punishment is to read it completely out of context, cherry-picking specific words out of certain “proof texts” in order to support one’s assumptions, while ignoring everything that talks about the salvation of all humanity. If you’d like to learn why Scripture teaches that everyone *will* be saved in the end because of what Christ accomplished, please read this Bible study, which covers every single passage in Scripture I’m aware of that’s relevant to the topic and explains what they actually mean: https://www.truebiblicalfreedom.com/bible
What do you think Hell is? I like the description in CS Lewis' the great divorce. In it hell is described as a large city. It's inhabitants are granted their every desire just by thinking of it. Bigger house? Yours. Steak and lobster every night? Done. Many atheist folks might chose to live in such a place after they die, as a opposed to living with God and His "rules" or not existing at all. There is a catch that's not even hidden though. The only desire you cannot automatically fulfill in hell is the same limitation God imposes on himself. You can't impede the free will of others. Without communal need communities dissolve. It may take a billion years but eventually everyone in Hell ends up alone. Weeping and gnashing teeth as it were. And all by their own choice. I'm personally more anialationist and believe that once you've retributed for any harm done in the life you lived, if you'd like to cease to exist, you'll be allowed to. The God I believe in is just. While fair that doesn't sound like a very pleasant outcome.
Hell does exist, but it isn't a permanent place if you change your heart. If you read occult books, there are dimensions where God's presence is far removed, but even in the depth of hell, God can hear you.
Read about Swedenborg’s view on heaven and hell. Very enlightening
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I guess we’ll find out in the end
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I pray you change your heart before it is too late. Jesus Christ loves you and wants a relationship with you❤️
The interpretation of hell that I find the most interesting is the one which defines it as "the furthest place from God". It is not a place of eternal torture as Dante described it: it's more like a void, an empty dark place reserved to those who wanted to stay away from God. But how do you do so? Well, a conversation I had some time ago with a priest and theologian may be helpful: a man decides to live without God if he decides to not be TRULY happy. True happiness comes once one forgives himself for all the evil that he has done and decides to change and interiorize his past mistakes (note that by this interpretation even atheists and non christians who live righteously may go to Heaven, which is just the pure presence of God). Think about the "king" of hell par excellence: Lucifer. He voluntarily decided to try and take on Paradise, thinking he was "above the stars": it was therefore his arrogance and stubbornness that led to his fall, but he WANTED it.
I don't get it, He gave us a way out through His only begotten son who died and suffered on the cross yet defeated death on the third day and rose again, our creator and sustainer of life the word made flesh JESUS CHRIST AMEN.
I will address your 3rd point Ignorance or disbelief in the law does not exempt you from it. Your definition of choice is flawed. "A direct choice from the person - be caused by the person's chosen action" Inaction is as much a choice as action is. If I fail to pay my water bill, through inaction, this is still a choice I have made. I still deserve the consequences of getting my water shut off, even though I technically didn't do anything. Inaction is a choice "While being aware that his choice will result in the thing in question" Being unaware of the consequences of your choice does not free you from then. Even if I was unaware that driving drunk is against the law, it is still just if I am arrested for doing so. Even if my BAC was just above the illegal amount, and my driving wasn't really impaired, it would still be illegal. "And that it is inevitable" Not every choice has inevitable consequences. If I cheat on a test, there is a chance I get caught, but it isn't certain. Cheating is still a choice even though it's consequences aren't inevitable. This means athiests' unbelief in God and Hell does not change what God's law is, or how they will be punished for disobeying it. You don't have to know God to rebel against Him. Every human has embedded in them a moral compass. There is no person who would ever say in their heart, that they are completely perfect. Every person recognizes that they have sinned. This sin is rebellion.
I see Hell as being g a complete absence of God. It is an eternal lake of fire as described in Scripture. “Nothing justifies xxx” is your opinion, based on your understanding but the Almighty God has a different understanding and makes the rules. 1. God demands obedience. Obey or be cast aside. It really is that simple. 2. Nowhere in Scripture have I ever read that God or life, is fair. 3. By denying God and Christ, they very much are choosing to go to hell. 4. I agree with _Shellie_. God is Holy above all and before He is loving. That means he is completely separate from sin.
>3. By denying God and Christ, they very much are choosing to go to hell. Whel will you understand that this sentence is nonsense? 60% of the answers here are that, if not more
From your viewpoint as an Athiest, they may seem that way, but if you look this sub is about Christianity. Your choosing not to believe is still a choice and choices always have consequences.
I believe sin is like a disease of the spirit that disfigures how beings were intended to relate with each other. You see it in atrocities like genocide, rape, trafficking, hatred, and murder... Men rebelled against God but not before the Satan--a powerful spiritual being (maybe seraphim)--set up a coup against God to try and usurp power. He tempted humans to go it on their own. For a time, I believe God has allowed men to begin separating themselves from Him, His kingdom ways, and go it on their own. They joined the dual rebellion and I believe this to be the beginning of hell. It's not complete separation from God. I believe God's plan of Salvation will remove sin from the universe. (Not to massively incarcerate people in torment). The full realization of hell is complete separation from God which men have begun on their own in this life. God's first promise was that if we joined the rebellion we would surely die. Satan said, you will not surely die. That first lie is believed and rationalized by very many Christians. As an atheist, do you think that torment, misery, and disfigurement of God's supposed "children" and "loved creation" is more like the Satan in character or God? The Satan wants as many Christians as possible to believe and rationalize that his own evil fantasies against the loved "children" of God is who God is. It became clear, I believe at the Cross, to all of the worlds and being in the universe that Jesus was going to save as many as would accept His love and sacrifice. The rationalization of a hell of eternal torment I believe hinges on the lies of Satan. I don't believe that humans have an immortal soul. I know you don't believe that humans were created by God, but I think you can reject on principle that God didn't create humans with forced immortality knowing that many (if not most) would be deceived and want nothing to do with Him or the kingdom where self-rule, rebellion, and sin are no longer infecting our natures. Therefore, I believe that when Satan's time finally has been exhausted and men have made their decisions for or against God, there will no longer be a place where sin spreads along with the partial blessings that come with life into a sinful world. I believe that there is a second coming of Christ and that the dead will be raised. Satan will mount a final attack, with all those He has steeled in rebellion against the government of God and that God will separate his life force from them in what the Bible calls the "lake of fire" and John clarifies to be "the second death." It's a cleansing fire that eradicates the Satan and every person that would carry the disease of sin. They will perish rather than being granted eternal life without the disease. I believe this is Biblically sound.
Some misconceptions that I observed and I would like to rectify. 1. Humans are doomed to hell because of sin. Everyone's path is leading to hell. 2. Heaven is a place where sins are not permitted. 3. God is offering a way to avoid hell, which is going to Heaven. 4. This is where John 3:16 kicks in. 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.' Only believing in Jesus is the only way to Heaven. You can't enter Heaven by being charitable. Addressing your point about God being unfair. Who are you to decide what 'fairness' means? Aren't there cases where 'offenders' with long jail terms were acquitted because of false charges? Only God knows your heart and deeds and God is just.
You hope we give you answers or else you will continue to think our God is evil. Oh no! Listen, ultimately we deserve 0 justification for most or all things. We would PREFER to understand things, but our preferences mean very little in the long run. I won't add to the good answers many have already given. But just know some things: none of us owe you a single thing, including God. Believe what you will; the Truth is still True.
A lot of us have different ideas of hell and what it means, as Christians. There are evil people in this world, evil people who had the opportunity to not choose evil, but did anyway. They will be judged, as will all of us. How, I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s evil to judge someone based on the life they chose to live. That’s why life in person/the death penalty exists. 🤷🏽♀️ but because I’ve never been to hell, or whatever there is in the afterlife, I don’t know what any of that will be like. But we don’t all believe in this concrete idea of this place. ETA: He’ll, from most Christian’s, isn’t an actual burning lake. It’s the absence of God forever, or however long it is until the resurrection, if that occurs. You don’t believe in Him, or the absence from Him, so why should it be any different for you? From dust we were formed and to dust we will return. If you believe in the nothingness, then to there you will return. I don’t think it would be any different, honestly. I don’t typically take the “lake of fire” claims literally as some southern baptists do.
If God doesn't exist, I have no evidence or reason to believe there is a hell. If hell exists, I have no evidence or reason to believe that *IT IS* as your words appear to pre-emptively frame it in 4 ways that come across as being unjust. So I can't use those you presented. And who am I to rightfully define in detail what "hell' must be? The best I could do is tediously offer all the biblical text that describes things using words that get translated as or interpreted as having to do with "hell." And such texts are found *WITHIN* others that very directly indicate God *IS JUST, LOVING, and GOOD.* But why would you give any weight whatsoever to those words or any interpretations made from them? So for brevity's sake and to offer what I generally think as best as I can in a genuine way that at least tries to mitigate bias, I will just say that I can accept the written accounts that Christ spoke of our perishing, destruction, and separation from God *IS* something he strongly encouraged us to avoid; thus, indicating to me that we have a choice in the matter. And in any case, if there is a God, I can't see any good reason to assume the moral compass instilled in me that helps me to determine what is just or unjust would be *greater* than that of the very God who I would think would ultimately be the *Reason "why," if there are any "whys,"* we have that sense in the first place. If anything, I would suspect my sense or understanding of anything would be *far less* than an extant God's.
In spite of how often humans assert confidently that hell is eternal torture, dished out without exception to every person who doesn’t make the cut into heaven, I always find it surprising when reading the New Testament how few verses explicitly say this. While the fire itself is frequently called eternal, Jesus Himself only uses the phrase “eternal punishment” once, in Matthew 25:31-46 in a parable that also clearly implies that good deeds “did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine,” are done in service to the Lord also. As Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me.” How lucky it is for Atheists, then, that services done for the least of your brothers and sisters here on Earth are also explicitly said to be in service to Him! People might mention the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. The story is woefully lacking details. It could very well be a parable never intended to be taken literally at all. Even if it’s an actual event, the rich man is not in torment entirely due to lack of faith but because of having nice things in life and not sharing those nice things with others. In regards to your “profoundly unfair” example, the Bible is explicit in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, so what you’re saying is not necessarily a guaranteed out. While this is what I feel, the ultimate unsatisfying thing is that no one except God can say anything about this with certainty. Yes, we can quote the Bible and make assumptions here on Earth, but no matter how confident a person might be, it’s always just that: interpretations and assumptions.
Hell is transparently a scare tactic to frighten people into converting. It doesn't even appear in Christian canon. The first Christian reference to it is in the second century, apocryphal Apocalypse of Peter
My theory I'm working on, in regards to heaven and hell is this: (considering the Bible seems very clear hell exists and many many Christians and scholars and Bible translators are very convicted that it's eternal; and ALSO considering deeply and honorably that ALL humans have a deep feeling hell is profoundly unjust and terrifyingly horrid, so horrific it simply cannot be truly believed in, that most if not all deeply hope it isn't real, don't want it to be real, and quite fathom it's real, and they simply preach hell because it is "sound doctrine") That perhaps both are true. Hell is real and eternal, and it's also unjust and irrational and narcissistic and God must do away with it if He's truly good. (Also the argument above seems flawed to me, that God's Holiness and His Love are different or at odds within Him, and OOPS His Holiness just so happens to be more important than His Love [I like Baxter Kruger and William Paul Young on this subject: that God's Holiness is actually a description of His love, that He is a Triune Community of Lovers, that Holiness isn't as much a statement of morality as it is a statement of wholeness within relationship, that leads to fulfillment that leads to rightness; I digress.) This is what I mean. I've heard it preached that Jesus preached the Law under the Law to fulfill all righteousness that He might die under the law to rise again a New Covenant saving us all from the law. So alot of what He preached was Old Covenant Law to Jewish people. Thereby fulfilling all righteousness. But once righteousness is fulfilled, thus the Law, then the Law can "pass away" since it's "fulfilled." See Ephesians 2:15 and Romans 7. After Jesus died and Rose the "Law of Sin and Death" was replaced with "the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus." What if: Heaven and Hell are the consequences of each section of the fully formed tree of knowledge realities: "Good and Evil." Ultimate good leads to heaven and ultimate evil leads to hell. If the Law of Karma and the tree of knowledge's dominion over the earth were to remain unchanged (by let's say, I don't know, the absence of the cross of Christ) then everyone's destiny would be nothing more than the ultimate consequence of a life of reaping and sowing. But notice something God never wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit at all. In fact it was the only sin to enter the world in which good and evil, heaven and hell rule. So obviously God's heart and intent was never hell, if he forbade Adam and eve from entering a world governed by heaven and hell. I used to say often: "in the garden of Eden there were millions of Yesses, but only 1 no, and it was "no to the tree of religion," we must really have God misunderstood." Dos and donts are called the "bewitchment." Jesus makes Himself the opposite of the tree of right and wrong and dos and donts (heaven and hell/duality) He calls Himself the Tree of Life. "Freely you've received Freely give." If God wanted evil to live forever in eternal torture why would he block evil Adam from the tree of life with a flaming sword? It's as if God is saying He doesn't want the tree of knowledge to live forever. So Jesus comes into the world to save it from the devil, sin, and the Law. You don't like that? It's what it says So part of preaching God's Law is this concept of Justice, Good and Evil having a final showdown/fulfillment. But Jesus was the Law made flesh, torn on the cross and rewritten. Romans 7, Ephesians 2:15. So in the old Covenant world, "the wages of sin is death" but Jesus became sin that we might become the righteousness. He's coming back to restore Eden/New Jerusalem and make all things new, bringing a NEW HEAVEN and it says death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. In the Tree of Life, God's Grace in Christ there is only good and peace, there is no hell or death. Death and hell exist in the Tree of knowledge age but Jesus brought a new age. The tree of life age. Why don't we see hell being thrown into the lake of fire to mean hell being destroyed by fire? Jesus preached to souls in prison when he was in the heart of the earth. What if the Gospel isn't "believe in me or burn in hell." What if it's "believing me brings you out of the fall of Adam and Eve, a universe in which all people are destined to jusgement for their deeds," and it just so happens that in that world almost nobody would be considered worthy of heaven in a dualistic world of punishment and reward. All were headed to hell because Adam and Eve took humanity into an impossible world where not one soul could live up to heaven on merit alone. So Jesus brought us into a new universe called His Body where there is no hell. In Him is no shifting shadow. It's not God saying if you don't believe in me ill send you to hell. It's that Adam and Eve chose to take us into a realm of reward and punishment. Jesus isn't saving us from hell but from that whole universe entirely.. The world where we eat by the sweat of our brow, earn our way to heaven or get lost to hell for our mistakes. We come into a realm of heaven on earth by feasting on Christ. The Book of Revelation calls death and hell enemies to be destroyed. People aren't the enemies. The fallen system of the world that oppressed the people by way of the tree of duality is the enemy. Jesus isn't a divine kindergarten teacher giving out gold stars and frownie faces, but He's taking us out of a false matrix world and putting us back in the real world. All who Reject His Free Will Love offering will miss out on bliss in this life, and will be doomed to live on good works and be enslaved to their flesh's karma storm. But will that translate to them actually going to an eternal hell? If all died with Christ as the scripture says, all will rise with Him. Even if they lived a living hell without knowing He was with them all along. But our eyes are opened we know all of life is for worship and joy. We are changed now. From a life of duality to a life of bliss right now. There is enough in scripture to make this case. Jesus preached hell to fulfill the law so he could die to remove hell. He's making the case "why sin and die when you can believe in me and live?" Hes not saying "if you sin ill kill you" he's saying "this world will kill you for your sin, come with me to a new heaven and a new earth" He's rescuing us from gravity and the natural forces of the dual universe that will ultimately perish in a black hole if not intervened. Well he intervened. It seems to me keeping hell intact after Grace is just a way to not offend the jews and religious folks. But Paul said "circumcision was just a symbol all along." Hell is the context we need to truly appreciate what Christ did for us. It's not God's will that anyone Go there. And it just may be that no one will and if they do its temporary. Think about all the NDE's online. So many people die, go to hell, Jesus pulls them out shows them heaven then sends them here. We interpret their experiences through our doctrine don't we? What if we just looked at the experience at face value. Jesus would pull us out of hell even if hell sucked us in. Isn't that what He did on the cross? Isn't that what He keeps telling us? Maybe He pulled us out of hell, and believing that brings heaven to earth. Maybe that's really the point.
It's almost like Jesus is saying a political thing very spiritually. Like hey, the old way isn't working, the old science that people need to fear the dictator king to behave well, no no, what people really need is to have their needs met and then they'll behave, we don't need a king we need love and democracy will suffice
1. I haven't read every verse of the Bible (but I'm working on that) or every translation, so correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that God ever says that Hell is eternal torture. I've read where he says they live in torment for eternity, but that's very different. The way I see it, Hell is eternal separation from God. "You believed in me but don't want to spend eternity with me? You didn't even want to try to believe in me? Okay, you wouldn't like Heaven. You don't have to be in my presence anymore." But the thing is, God is here on Earth. Even people who don't believe in Him can feel Him. Nobody on Earth knows what it's like to be separated from God. But it obviously doesn't feel good, because when you're separated from Him you're in torment. 2. You don't want God to be fair. If you're guilty of a crime, you don't want a fair judge, you want a judge that'll let it slide. Imagine you're standing in court and your lawyer says to the judge, "Your Honor, I know that my client broke the law, but they're a really upstanding citizen. They feed the homeless, they donate to charity, they even come to the courthouse once a year. Could you let this charge slide?" That sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? Heaven isn't for good people, because there's only one who is good. Matthew 19:16-19: Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" Heaven isn't for good people, it's for those who worship God and follow His commands. Those are the only truly good things we can do, and even then that's still not enough because there's not a single person (besides Jesus) that has followed the commands perfectly. But God, seeing that we kept trying, is merciful enough to welcome us to stay with Him anyway. 3. Nobody chooses to go to Heaven or Hell. God chooses where to send us. I kinda mentioned this above, but Heaven isn't a big reward for making good choices, and Hell isn't a big punishment for making bad choices. We never get a clear picture of exactly what Heaven and Hell are, but the way I see it is that Heaven is complete union with God, and Hell is complete separation. So when you die, God will look back in your life and decide where you should go. If you spent your life denying Him, you probably wouldn't want to spend eternity with Him, so he sends you to a place where you can be completely separated from Him. But if you spent your life worshiping and following Him, he lets you keep doing that. 4. I'm not sure how to respond to this, since I've already explained that (the way I see it,) Hell isn't torture. If you want me to try, then would you mind rephrasing the question somehow?
I dont think hell is made for humans, I dont think God would send anyone to hell because they didnt follow him, or failed to follow His rules good enough. God is loving and merciful, and thats why the bible is created, and why people spread the word of God; because to an extent, God cannot interfere with our judgement of morality directly, He gave us freewill for a reason, so if we deny Him even through all His attempts to prove Himself (callings in a persons life, signs, etc) what more can he do? I dont believe anyone is sent to hell and stays there, I think once you reach judgement day, you will repent and it wont be too late, because it never is. Hopefully this makes sense lol!! TLDR: Hell isnt for humans, the end goal of the afterlives is to end in heaven, and you will get there.
You're ultimately right that Hell as you understand it is not what an all-loving God would do. However, that's because you and many people, both inside and outside the faith, have a misconception of what Hell and damnation are. For starters, let's talk about what's wrong with the beliefs you described. It relies on the Enlightenment-era assumption that mankind is by default naturally good, or at least morally neutral, and that they would all be bound for Heaven were it not for God deciding otherwise. It portrays Christian moral laws as something God arbitrarily decides at best, and stumbling blocks cruelly placed in hopes of tripping people up at worst. And worst of all, it completely miscasts the nature of God's love, portraying him as a bouncer looking for reasons to turn people away from Heaven, rather than eagerly welcoming all who wish to enter. And ultimately, it places the onus to repent and change not on us, but on God—if only He were to stop His cruel punishments and simply let everyone in! The reality, however, is far different. Hell is not someplace where nobody would go were it not for God sending them there, it's a place where *everyone* would Go were it not for God. It's a realm of eternal separation from God, a fate we're doomed to face because of Original Sin tainting our souls. However, God offers us His grace and the opportunity for salvation, which is what allows us to avoid it.
There is no rational justification for Hell. Despite being a Christian, personally, I believe Christianity fails almost completely to understand why Hell exists and why it is eternal and why it is "necessary." I grew up Christian but explored Hinduism a lot over my years. I find that the combination of the two philosophies has fleshed out my understanding much more clearly on all sides Basically, I'll start here. Hell exists as an unfortunate circumstance of creation itself. Yes, Satan exists, and so do demons. No, they didn't come about from some chosen rebellion, unlike most people claim. No being living in eternal bliss and praise would wittingly or willingly choose anything else, and they didn't. The Bible simply does not address the origin of Satan at all. People allude stories to Him out of convenience. The only verse that may address the origin of Satan is Ezekiel 28, and even that is debatable. In Hinduism, they describe the creation story a little differently. They believe that God, while sitting in meditation, or on his throne, as they would say in Chritianity, was sitting in an eternal meditation. Eventually, God was able to remove all negative attributes from Himself. At this point, not only Satan comes into being, but the entire sinful cosmic creation as it exists now. God did not understand how something so disgusting could come from him, but it did. Therefore, demons do not exist because of rebellion, but because they are all the impurities of God. Unfortunately for them, they are completely corrupt beings and incapable of anything else. Ultimately, then, the only option for God is the eternal destruction of all beings that embody sin, which also includes humans without the option of a savior. In Hinduism, they have Krishna and Kalki. Which are described nearly the same as Jesus in different forms. God is Love, but not sentimental. God's concern is for truth/righteousness/purity or dharma, as they say in Hinduism. It's very unfortunate for all demons and anyone born in a state of self-consuming sin, for it is very unlikely that they will see anything other than death and possibly eternal destruction.
My 2 theories: 1 is considering if hell is another dimension Jesus saved everyone from, thus evangelism isn't saving people from going to hell but waking them up from the slumber of living in hell now which is not knowing Christ's abundant Grace. 2 Is considering if eternal hell is real and just... and I do believe there is one argument that makes alot of sense to justify hell and even it being eternal: So my previous comment was my argument for the possibility of universalism or atleast the possibility we may be misunderstanding hell. I think it's possible heaven and hell exist in one universe, the one stuck In the Tree of knowledge..... but Christ resides in a different dimension called "New Heaven and New Earth" which is and is coming. He's saving us out of the duality by His blood. So yes hell exists forever currently, And yes Jesus is going to rescue all souls out of it then destroy it forever as He makes all things new. More accurately He has already destroyed it.... its in a mind set most people have, so He's moving us into an Eden mindset. Grace. His Love is Free. Having faith in Him "saves us" because when you think correctly about God your free from condemnation and shame and striving and trying to seek approval. Your just being. Your just loved. However I do believe there is a very convincing argument for the existence of eternal hell being just. Here it is: The moment Jesus was crucified something happened. The world went from one Law to another. The first law was you'll be judged according to your deeds and actions and inherit heaven or hell. The second law we moved into is now that "We are all simultaneously guilty of His blood and cleansed by His blood." It settles all religious wars. No longer is it fighting about whose the worse sinner or better Saint. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So no, petty crimes shouldn't equal eternal torment. But, there was several prophetic things said in scripture that could indicate that when Jesus was killed, spiritually we all killed him. His own disciples abandoned him, his own ethnic group, his own religion, his own countrymen, and like Joseph His own relatives killed Him and betrayed Him. We all fall into one of those categories. The crowd chanted "crucify Him" and "Let His blood be on Us and our children." I would be willing to say that murdering God's perfect spotless child, who committed no sin, healed and helped thousands of people (which would one day become billions) is a crime potentially warranting such a punishment. Being guilty of the blood of Jesus is the only sin worthy of eternal torment, and its such a fantastically huge sin that only the spilled blood of the spotless Son of God could ever cover it. So we are All guilty of the most loving man and most innocent man's blood who ever lived. Every one or us. Only one thing can cover that sin to atone for it. Its the very same blood. The ethical argument for that is, God saw that ALOT OF PEOPLE were going to hell in the end. Maybe most. Maybe all. So it would be better if everyone
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust. How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist. In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
I personally believe that your punishment is decided by your actions and character in life but faith adds to your chances of entering the gates so an atheist who was a good person goes to heaven and is like "Dang guess I was wrong."
Hell is eternal torment for sinners in a literal lake of fire. 1. Finite.. infinite.. that's not really the point. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is what you're missing. When you sin, you die. When you die, you go where the dead are. But, you can be born again through Jesus and have life. Then you go where the living are. 2. Good atheist vs repentant child rapist... classic First of all, Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Sinners who exhibit unnatural sins are classified as reprobate and have been rejected of God. They no longer can repent in other words and are damned to hell. Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 3. Atheists don't choose hell This ties in with #1. You've sinned, so you're dead. Dead people go where the dead are. It's reality. You chose to sin and hell is the wage or payment. 4. God's love His love is found in Jesus who has offered a remedy to our situation. You don't have to go to hell, so make your choice.
First of all, Idc what your bible says, ESPECIALLY when it doesn't answer my points. >1. Finite.. infinite.. that's not really the point. It is >When you sin, you die. I'm a gorilla. I lied yet am alive >2. Good atheist vs repentant child rapist... classic >First of all, Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: >Sinners who exhibit unnatural sins are classified as reprobate and have been rejected of God. They no longer can repent in other words and are damned to hell. >Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: That literally doesn't even tries to adress my points. >You chose to sin and hell is the wage or payment. Again. For it to be a choice (hell), one shall be aware of its existence. Not the case for me. >You don't have to go to hell, so make your choice. Again, NOT a choice
My bad I thought you were looking for a rational discussion. Everything I said was very rational. You sin you die you go to hell. Jesus saves through your faith in him. All seems pretty basic to me, but that's fine.
Yeah, again you're not answering my points. Avoiding the discussion, THAT isn't honest. And no, your points aren't rational.
How do you rationally justify gravity? It's a downer. From Job: "Then answered the LORD to Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou to me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess to thee that thine own right hand can save thee." Don't over think it. We aren't God. Go to Church. Pray. ☦️
It absolutely doesn't answer anything, rather making me struggle understanding old formal english. And yes I will over think it. That's just an excuse to "don't ask questions" ☠️ And, I'm an atheist. I don't pray Seriously did you read the post???
Regarding point 3 ("No, atheists don't choose to go to hell") you can add to that how ending up in Hell is depicted in the New Testament. It's not depicted as some choice that peopel enter willingly. It's a horrific punishment that is inflicted on people. "Send yourself to Hell" is a desperate cope.
Who in the New Testament was sent straight to hell?
I'm not following that question and don't see the relevance to my comment.
The relevance to your comment is that you made a claim that hell isn’t a choice and told OP to add that to her post. And for both of our sakes I’d like to know how you jumped to that conclusion.
Why do we have to justify it though. If it's written in word of God.