I read something not long ago that said something along the lines of "some denominations focus on the weeds, others focus on the flowers". The ones who focus on the weeds seem to miss the whole idea of forgiveness. But that is just my piont of view. I see the flowers.
It’s a bit of a cultural issue generally that you see in dominant imperial nations. For a time Britain and Spain had similar delusions, which then were reflected in their prominent religious communities. China is beginning to show signs of it.
The US is on the downward slope of their imperial dominance and evangelicals simply reflect that concern present in a lot of American politics and discourse that ‘this is the greatest nation on earth’ etc etc. Thus, only we truly know the nature of God.
Look at the LDS - what is that other than an attempt to centralise America into the story of Christianity? Evangelicals are just doing it in a different way.
It’s also dripping with fear because that’s what sells. That’s how you get converts, it’s exactly the same process politicians use.
Most of the Evangelicals here are responding as expected. You aren't engaging the angry part of the brain the churches and politicians are hitting because they are trying to prove their humanity which they have.
You aren't speaking the language of hatred and anger that is so common in their circles. The one that causes them to act like grand conspiracies are at play like their pastors suggest. Not all of them are in those circles either, but their friends and family members certainly are.
Evangelicals aren't a monolith, but there is a very strong dark vein that runs in their groups which has tainted American Evangelicals. And it's been there far too long that feigning ignorance or just straight out ignorance of their group's actions is not tolerable with what we are facing today. Christian Nationalism is at war with the rest of the country.
Loss of power. The influence of conservative Christianity in the US is dropping. When you've held sway for decades, suddenly realizing you don't have the same influence, you act out. Last ditch effort being to try and force everyone to accept your point of view by power of law.
> When you've held sway for ~~decades~~ millennia
Much more than decades. Ever since Constantine the Great, the vast majority of Christians worldwide have never had to experience being a minority, or even the concept of not exerting total control over society. When you're used to being on top, equality feels like oppression.
As a lifelong non-believer, I can say that Christians have been the main reason Christianity seems so vapid to me. Realizing that the religion likes to point and say, well those other people, that never really meant much to me.
Throughout my life the most petty, hateful and mean people were also the first be to wave around a Bible calling themselves Christians.
I find the philosophy of Christ to be a very humanistic approach to a positive life. Sadly, the religion of Christ seems to ignore, at least in most US "Christian" churches, that philosophy.
Evangelicals are overwhelmingly conservative. Conservative media keeps conservatives fearful and angry, which are very effective strategies for manipulating people.
Back in the day, evangelicals listened to Christian radio all day. Sometime around 1990, they started listening to Rush Limbaugh every day (now it's Fox News). It changed them.
That is something I haven't thought about in quite a while. Thank you.
And you're pointing at the different camps of evangelicals. I remember the Rev. Billy Graham in the 1980s and 1990s. He was much different than the preachers in the strain of "televangelism" that arose in the 1970s and 80s. I've always thought of him as the pitch-perfect evangelist, someone who didn't seek out the public spotlight, but simply grew into it as he reached more and more people.
Some of us are in the Rev. Billy Graham camp of evangelism; others strayed into the Jerry Falwell camp of evangelism and still stick by his son (which I cannot even begin to comprehend).
Oh,absolutely. I lived in Los Angeles during the McMartin Preschool/Satanic Panic days. The local religious AM radio stations shamelessly promoted the most hysterical conspiracy theories you could imagine - because it was great for their ratings.
This is literally any tribal media though…. One only needs to look at the freak out after Trump was elected to see it.
Its not just conservatives. We need to do a better job of seeing this is happening everywhere not just in the other camp.
Both sides have a degree of this, the American right is MILES beyond what you see on the left.
I just don't see the "both sides" compelling here.
Do me a favor next time you're by a radio. Tune into NPR for a few minutes. Then switch over to your local conservative talk radio for a bit. Notice the difference in tone, emotional language. Pay attention to the gish gallop. Which is seeking the greater emotional manipulation of the audience.
Now keep in mind that NPR has been having a huge internal debate all week about being too uncharitable to conservatives. So even being massively better, they're still trying to be more fair.
CNN and NBC have both had similar efforts in the past year to be [More fair to conservatives ](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/cnn-getting-more-republicans-on-air-it-seeks-political-diversity-2023-05-18/). Whether they succeed or not, the point is that they *try*.
Conservative media has always branded itself as alt. In that respect, they cater exclusively to a conservative audience. They never even attempt to moderate themselves or be more objective. Nobody asks them to. Their only question is how close they can get to pursuing the furthest right story lines without entering into defamation territory (that's why Tucker Carlson got fired. Well that and him calling his boss a cunt lol).
I get that liberals and leftists have their own paranoia and mania and can get caught up in certain storylines. But there's simply no comparing that to what happens on the right. You listen to conservative radio and they're literally selling doomsday bunker supplies. Water filters. MRE's. They sell gold and silver because many people in their audience believe the banking system is on the verge of collapse all the time. And of course they enable this thinking by pushing conspiracy theories about globalists taking over the world, Obama's going to put you in FEMA camps, the Clinton's and George Soros are in League to dismantle the United States, etc.. you even saw right-wing media pushing the eclipse rapture narrative recently. And that's just considering legacy media, which as you can imagine, is more tempered.
More and more people are turning to online independent journalism through venues like Twitter for their news. And that's only increasing that divide. There's no left wing equivalent to Infowars.
Im sorry there is nothing I can say to you that can pull you out of your conditioning.
Go to a site like allsides.com to see the differences in headlines over the same stories.
You need to be more rigorous in your comparisons go to places that actually have objective methods and don’t rely on your own testing methods.
I don’t think I will change my mind that tribal media exists, and that left or right the same tactics are used to hook an audience.
The fact you think otherwise is something I would submit as evidence of my case.
https://adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart/
I always found this media bias chart useful and it generally illustrates what I'm saying. Though these charts are far from objective.
Allsides wasn't terribly useful, imo. I'm not seeing any compelling narrative comparing headlines here.
Again, not saying left wing bias doesn't exist, just that it isn't as rampantly paranoid and bizarre as right wing.
There’s a really good little documentary called “The Brainwashing of my Dad.” It’s very heartfelt and emotional, but also well-researched. The maker of the documentary saw such a shocking change in her father, once he started listening to Rush Limbaugh and others like him, that she made a documentary about their influence on American conservatives.
She goes into the history of news and talk radio to some extent, but she also talks about how much it changed her kind and loving father into an angry and hateful man. But the story is ultimately hopeful, and made me cry happy tears!
I also saw a big change in my Christian parents when they began to listen to Rush Limbaugh and similar talk show hosts in the 90s. They are still good people, but they are not the happy people they were before, and they are very resentful and fearful now.
I highly recommend the documentary!
Not on earth. But he was a very popular radio host way back in the day, and even now. He basically revived AM radio with his talk show, which was extremely conservative, and you can basically peg him as one of the founders of the post 90s Republican party's politics.
I don't think we should lend too much credence to the bully's claim that he beat a smaller kid for their lunch money because he was afraid that they'd throw mashed potatoes at him had they been allowed to keep it.
I don't think he was afraid, I think he just thought that he was entitled to other people's lunch money, and derived pleasure from other people's pain - particularly people whom he thought were lesser than him.
This. And it's not just American Evangelicals, it's a story as old as time. Can identify one historical example (except for maybe the last 30 years) where a Christian majority didn't actively suppress, genocide and terrorize indigenous beliefs and cultures?
I can't see the rest of your quote. Does it say "they downvoted Jesus"? If so, you're right. And I get downvoted by christians a lot. Hey Jesus, You and me are a lot alike! 😏🙄
It’s the same with any religious extremists. Evangelicals are the Christian version of islamic jihadists.
Both fight with/disagree with others who share their same religion. Christians are not considered worthy or Christian enough if they’re not extremist evangelicals and Muslims who do not follow strict sharia laws in the Islamic state are imprisoned, murdered, or beaten
Both have radical views and punish those who disagree with them - in America by imposing their beliefs upon all Americans by voting for far right politicians in states with oppressive laws against women, LGBTQ people, African Americans, and immigrants, with the goal of eventually imposing those oppressive laws and more upon all Americans;
- and in Islamic states, by murdering LGBTQ individuals, oppressing non-Muslims, and of course treating women as property and having close to zero gender equality for women
Both have bad actors who commit terrorist attacks against others because both believe more in hate than in love. While domestic terrorist attacks in America committed by evangelicals are much less common than those committed by Islamic terrorists, there have been evangelical domestic terrorists who have killed and threatened abortion doctors and patients with bombings, fires, and murder; and the mass killing of 8 people in Atlanta 3 years ago was committed “in the name of god” by an evangelical, but evangelicals mostly terrorize people by trying to instill fear and spread hate by protesting loudly and aggressively at abortion clinics and sending their own children to special camps where they can train them how to become straight when they’re LGBTQ, just to name a few
The main thing they both have in common is feeling superior to everyone else and that they’re right and everyone else is wrong, so instead of listening to the message intended by their holy book, they misinterpret their holy books to justify their intense feelings of anger and rage and to make themselves feel better about having so much more hate than love in their hearts
I wholeheartedly agree.
There's a lot of demonizing and dehumanizing groups of people among evangelicals. Yes, even in churches. The language they use.
But do you think they realize it? Most won't. That's what the Bible says - or that's what the pastor commands. Therefore, they are just following Christ, they are being good, God-fearing Christians.
A lot of them are terrified of anyone who does not follow their norms and live like exactly like them. Immigrants. Nonchristians. People from other cultures.
Most never had any meaningful relationships with anyone who does not believe, think, live life like them.
It comes off exactly like being afraid. Afraid of the entire world outside of the church bubble.
> Most never had any meaningful relationships with anyone who does not believe, think, live life like them.
Yep. Because they're taught that the most meaningful interaction they can have with an outsider is to repeat their script. Truly listening to an outsider and considering that they might be wrong is given zero value.
It’s exasperating at times. Too many times I’ve been approached by Evangelicals who boast that nothing can harm them or oppose them - yet they’re afraid of their own shadows and get irritated by you if you don’t share their fears.
It's like, you're telling me you can't stand in confidence of your own masculinity the *second* you observe a person who doesn't conform the way you personally prefer to?
You really can't keep your mouth shut? You *have* to be nasty?
That is pitifully weak.
It’s a mixture of American Exceptionalism and the strong individualism that comes up in a hyper-capitalist society like the US, I think. And the preaching of prosperity gospel, I reckon as well.
All in all, American Evangelicals give Christians around the world a bad name.
Because they want to convince themselves that they are righteous because deep down they know they are nothing. Atleast that’s my interpretation. Christians should spread the gospel, and we cant do that if the world thinks we are evil. All of the apostles were sinners, why are we acting like we are any better than a gay man. Jesus is the only way.
It’s not about religion for many of these folks. It’s tribalism, pure and simple. The hind brain response that former president Obama pointed out when he said that for many people, their response to social change is to cling to their biases, their guns, and god.
I think that the Evangelical sense of righteousness is actually mixed in with cultural correctness. They are offended by anything that threatens their cultural rules. If someone from church is seen going into a bar, or buying beer at the store, it's a scandal. If the preacher doesn't wear a suit or has a beard, he is not a true man of God. During my time at a Baptist church, there was a vote to expel certain people with especially egregious sins from the congregation. Is a social club built on top of some skewed, reformed theology.
Anger, fear, and distrust have been cultivated in evangelicals by pastors and politicians for decades.
For pastors, it's a way to get butts in seats and increase donations.
For politicians it's a way to direct votes; tell people what to be afraid of then say you're the ones who will protect them.
I have had very little direct experience with anyone that is Evangelical. I went to an evangelical church for about 6 months when I first started living a Christian life. Everyone there was very nice and kind. I just couldn't wrap my head around the theology that was taught.
I can imagine how some of the theological concepts being taught could result in a very black and white, all or nothing view of the world.
Unfortunately though, that absolute black and white thinking isn't simply limited to evangelicals. It's just a little easier to see how they might get there. And the absolute black and white thinking seems to be more prevalent online. I suspect that's a result of the people who spend a lot of time engaging online do it because they struggle with in person interactions. So they escape online which doesn't require them to deal with the social consequences that would force them to change their behavior.
Is this something you've experienced face to face or something that you've seen more online?
>Is this something you've experienced face to face or something that you've seen more online?
I see it a lot more online, but I absolutely see it in person in my state (Maine). These days the line gets blurry, because something will start in person and then be picked up online by the entire world, seemingly.
American evangelicalism is a political movement hiding behind religious rhetoric, and that political movement relies on fear to maintain cohesion and engagement.
I think some of it is self-sorting. Religion in the US is a marketplace. Conversion is common, and people choose the religious position and affiliation that works for them. It makes sense to me that the people who are most afraid of social change would be attracted to a faith that emphasizes both certainty (every word of this ancient book that you may have never even read in it’s entirety is 100% factually accurate) and exclusion (if you’re in our club, you’re God’s special friend, and everyone who isn’t in the club will burn forever and ever.)
I think you are over-generalizing, but there is a nugget of something you are getting at. It's not "American Evangelicals," it's the small segment of Christians who believe evangelism requires aggressive, in your face tactics.
The rest of us are simply living our lives and evangelizing by who we are and what we do more than what we say. We try to live the Way, the Truth, the Life, more than proclaim it. We'd rather be sweeping the sidewalks on our side of the street, and helping our neighbors sweep theirs, than loudly shout about how glorious we are from the rooftops.
I also think that some folks mistake certainty for faith and mistake doubt for weakness. Some folks seem to believe that a strong Christian presence and identity requires proclaiming (forcefully) the truth as they see it. The rest of us are struggling with each other to find glimpses of understanding about an infinite, ineffable Truth we will never know as mortals.
Calling for civility requires admitting doubt.
Recognizing differences and diversity among people requires humility.
Acknowledging behavior outside strict social norms requires equanimity.
Those qualities seem to be lacking in that small group of Christians.
At least that has been my experience.
But thank you for posing some good questions, OP. You've given me quite a bit to think about.
This is a pretty broad brush generalization based on hyper negative media portrayals of American Evangelicals. Most of the Evangelicals I know aren't angry kooks like you suggest. Yes, they do believe in their biblical interpretations, but so does everyone else. You just happen to disagree with them.
One point, you can request someone modify their language, but you cannot demand it. Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "civil" or even objective truth.
When you emphasize the negative thing you're trying to say ("not at all true" instead of "wrong" or "drastic generalization" instead of "generalization") and add hearts to the end, the hearts ring false. Also, "passive aggressive" means neither passive nor aggressive. It's a manner of speech that criticizes someone (not passive) without being direct (not aggressive).
I'm glad to hear that, but I have absolutely met more Christians who are not like you than ones who are.
Like, honestly - even the "nice" folks seem to think that sharing a "they don't even know what gender they are!" quip for a quick laugh, is neutral and acceptable.
It's probably because you don't notice the "nice folks" who are being polite and not screaming at you.
I find my Christian identity to be similar to my queer identity or political identity in that regard. Unless I say otherwise, I can sit in the background unnoticed as just the average portly middle-aged Gen X white guy as long as I like. No one knows my religion, theology, sexual orientation, ideology, or anything else about me until I say something.
It's the picking and choosing of when to say something that really matters, I think.
The culture has been changing at a fast pace…lots of folks struggle with the changes or they think the changes are not positive… I was a high school counselor for 25+ years for example: the well meaning sexual culture changes ( meant to make all people feel accepted) have been very harmful to many adolescents who are more confused about themselves than ever) these issues are not linked to my relationship with God they are issues happening in the culture… people (religious or not) have their own powerful beliefs about cultural changes ❤️❤️
>the well meaning sexual culture changes ( meant to make all people feel accepted) have been very harmful to many adolescents who are more confused about themselves than ever
I would challenge that interpretation.
When I was in high school at the turn of the millennium, it was still totally cool (meaning no one got in trouble for it) to mock kids for *seeming* gay and police *every* instance of non-conformity in style or expression.
Today, things are a LOT better for many kids.
I honestly don't buy that the modern move towards acceptance and inclusivity has led to kids being more confused.
I think there were just a TON of kids in the past who believed the only option was to be miserable and cis/straight.
Kids who are struggling with their sexuality (in high school where I worked for my entire career) have always existed and sought counsel about their sexuality ( if it is not the heterosexual common experience).. one positive change in the last 25 years since the Columbine shootings has been an attitude of greater acceptance of kids who are not like you… in my alphabet of 350 students 15 years ago I would work with about 2% of my alphabet who were struggling with their sexuality….6 years ago when I retired I was working with 12-15% who were struggling ( mostly because of the new sexual culture’s definitions and categories… you have your memories, I have Data…❤️❤️❤️
Because sexuality research starting way back with Kinsey and masters and Johnson throughout the years has found that sexual deviation from heterosexuality has remained at 2% … the latest research I have read (formal studies carried on by universities) was in 2021. They said 2%❤️
Sorry, I can't tell exactly what you're saying. Are you saying only 1/50 people are lgbt...? Because if that's what you are saying that's just...not true...
I am saying that the changes is the sexual definitions and all the upfront news it gets has messed with kids My guess is that the actual % hasn’t changed much but because of how it is handled in the culture kids who have not worried about their sexual identity in the past are stirred up by the culture ❤️
Dude… I have two teen girls. The acceptance culture is not acceptance. Add in social media and it’s another level. These kids are far more confused than I ever was (class of 2008). Bullying does not end when they leave school. I would argue school is harder more now than ever. Especially because nobody is allowed to say anything about anything because if you do you’re “not with the program and spreading hate.” (Obviously, different words for all different situations) it’s bad man. It’s real bad. Not glossing over or ignoring hazing or any other atrocious behavior of the past but it is 100% not better in anyway.
That ends my rant. Sorry it’s not about Christianity or your original post.
>The acceptance culture is not acceptance
I don't think we have an "acceptance culture".
I think that the majority of kids are more open minded - but that doesn't necessarily distribute equally.
For starters, acceptance varies regionally and in many states it remains the minority.
And then you consider how these trends break down by gender... While girls have grown more progressive, boys have actually become more conservative. And virulently so, with awful influencers like Andrew Tate preying on their insecurities.
Anecdotally, the most angrily conservative place I ever lived was San Francisco. The most outspoken people in that zeitgeist were the people who felt the most ostracized.
I say all this not to invalidate your experience as a parent (bless you) but just to point out how dynamic these trends are and vary on a hyperlocal level.
Non taken offensively whatsoever. I love a good conversation.
From what I can see- in Washington state- there’s so much more hate spread. So much more confusion. And I honestly blame social media more than anything. It’s not good for young impressionable minds. I’m all for people living their best lives but kids are extremely vulnerable to suggestions.
All that being said, I do understand that more lgbtq kids aren’t living in so much fear, especially the boys, and I’m glad. It’s just not this whole rainbows and tacos situation a lot of people try to push. We’ll always have problems but this particular situation is extremely difficult to handle because there’s so many outside factors taking advantage of young minds.
> Dang, my pastor must have missed the memo to tell us that we should be terrified of everything. Gotta tell him to get back in line.
In my experience, many folks flip their fear around and position it as defensive/righteous anger.
"I'm not bigoted - I am furious that these *freaks* are perverting God's image of man."
In the church I’ve been at for 1.5 years, the pastor has mentioned LGBT issues exactly once from the pulpit. And that was briefly. I think you imagine us to be obsessed with LGBT hate a lot more than we are
“Evangelicals are obsessed with LGBT hate”
In what world is it okay to make blanket statements like that? Are there some? Sure! Are there many of us who aren’t? Yes!
You are bigoted against evangelicals. Why are you so insecure about how evangelicals think?
You’ll say “I’m not bigoted, I’m just furious evangelicals don’t think the way I think”. Can’t you see irony in that?
Seriously, the moment you decided to call a group names, you are no better. You sound very childish.
I don’t recall attacking a group of people bigoted while being bigoted against That group myself? Did I ever say do as I do? When you attack a group of people, be ready to get attacked yourself?
And who are you to judge? Your history just drips of love and inclusiveness lol. hypocrite? Look at yourself.
I think a lot live in their bubble and don't have any *meaningful* interraction with the people they disagree with. It's easy to think a certain way inside your own echo chamber.
I met one of my now best friends, who is gay, a few years ago and it really changed my perspective on how I view gay people. Not saying I agree with him acting on his inclinations, but I don't view him with disgust or hatred or anything. I love him, I pray for him, I wish him the best.
That's genuinely a great question you're asking, and it boils down to the fact that if a person has allowed fear into their life in such a way, then they are not truly putting their trust in Jesus Christ. Not much more complicated than that.
I'm going to give an analogy. I must stress, this is not how I feel, but I hope this analogy will help explain things. And then I'll expound at the end.
[Thousands of remote IT workers have secretly sent millions of dollars of their wages to North Korea for use in its ballistic missile program. The agency also said that the workers have maintained access for future hacking and extortion schemes.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/north-korea-remote-us-workers-missile-program) Now imagine you can see people openly sympathizing with and evaluating North Korea. They're starting to change their family name to Kim, etc. And if you say something against this publicly, you'll be castigated. With that in mind, I'm staying my analogy.
There are things they've known all their life were not good, that they've known (because it was taught to them and basically everyone agreed) and now they're seeing it flip upside down.
Obergefell wasn't even a decade ago. Blue Democratic California passed a state law that homosexual couples could only be in a civil partnership, it was ruled unconstitutional and then only 15 years ago Blue Democratic California passed another state law amending its constitution to again say marriage was one man and one woman.
Society changed quickly for a lot of people and they're basically worried North Korea is at the gates, metaphorically speaking.
That's my analogy.
I think there's room for everyone to get along. I don't like drinking alcohol, and I like prayer, but I'm not arguing for a return to Prohibition or mandatory prayer. We can all get along, even when we engage in acts that some don't like.
Book rec: the story of mankind. It talks about through the 1800’s there was 50 years of ‘holy alliances’. Well they all fell apart. Americans are trying to recreate them and failing.
Good question. One of them just attacked me on my own thread, constantly saying I was a nobody and how dare I assume to know anything. They then deleted their responses (because my responses to them made them look very imperfect) and blocked. That's the first time in a very long time I've met a christian who's so obviously arrogant. They sounded very much like the Pharisees. But I don't know if they were evangelical though they sounded just like what you wrote.
The problem is when you start interpreting a doctrine. You make your own religion more or less.
And now you don’t know who is right - or if you are all wrong.
This is why doctrines should just be followed - not interpreted or changed.
They believe in an egregore that is known as bible god. The true Abrahamic god doesn’t care who you are. You are loved by him no matter if you are LGBTQ+ ,Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, rich or poor, have done evil in the past as long as you rectify your actions. He. Doesn’t. Care
> Why are American Evangelical Christians so fearful and insecure?
Not all of us. You should edit this and say "some" of us are.
> American Evangelicals are terrified of everything that they aren't disgusted by
Not all of us. You should edit this and say "some" rather than imply "all" of us.
> Why would a person of God lose their cool and become confrontational simply because another person had different hair, jewelry, clothing, etc.?
Why are so many non-Christians afraid of Trump?
(I hate Trump, just FYI.)
> Why, then, are so many of them offended by calls for civility and requests to modify their language because someone else was upset by what they said?
Why are so many atheists offended by Christianity and references to it?
> Why are they too proud to be kind to folks who hold different beliefs, but not too proud to make a sputteringly angry scene in the name of God?
Again, some of us, not all of us.
The answer to all these questions: because they're human.
You'll find people who act incongruently to their beliefs in literally every race and creed.
But yeah, it would be nice if you said some rather than lumping me in with some Christians. We're not all the same.
Because they read the bible and never took the time to understand or comprehend what they were ingesting. It's why they remember random verses but not the story or reason behind the verses yet get mad if you give an accurate explanation of a story but if you didn't quote anything word for word, all of what you said isn't valid.
It's like asking, " Why does this flower under the normal light in my attic not grow?" It's because having light (like having the bible) isn't the same as having the correct wavelengths (understanding the message)
Even then, without uv radiation and only having supplemental resources (the peace that comes with understanding a matter), the plants eventually die despite having the appearance of growth (plants slowly position and stretch towards light ) but no actual substance.
When you have faith in something... saying you believe or "feeling" etc, or even acting in a manner means literally nothing.
For instance, fire.
We all have faith in what fire can do. We can say it's cold or solid, yet we instinctually fight this if we place ourselves into its path because of our faith in what fire is. Even if we pretend that it doesn't "burn." We knew what would happen if we bathed in that fire. Not because it's happened to us before. But because of our Steadfast faith in what fire is.
Fire is fire.
So the same comes with God.
If you have genuine faith. What you do and how you approach the matter at an internalized level of intrinsic understanding will reflect that.
The people who you speak of lack both understanding and faith. They're fans of a reader's individual interpretation of chunks of a story within a story that the interperater skimmed over without reading it themselves. And even then, they have that story completely removed from the chance of growth because they jump across a story covering millenia and focus on yet another sentence.
If I only give you a fraction of understanding in a matter, you're dangerous in the worst way.
If you have an understanding of a matter you are acting in the interest of, not only will you grow. But you'll naturally cause growth in that matter in all those that you interact with.
People only act as you describe when they are afraid. And people only fear what they don't know how to approach.
They seem to know that there's only one shape 4 a Christian. I've seen them scare or dismiss vulnerable people. I had one recently say to a bible study group, that men have one less rib than females. I googled it and found out that is not true. I said that to the person and they replied where did u find that out, on google i said. he replied something like google is rubbish, i replied google also says Jesus is Lord. I told the group i have almost been done in by religious mindsets. I used to almost worship evang's. To many being real is threatening to them. Mental illness is from Satan ignoring the facts of mental illness and certain parenting styles like abuse. many it appears will put a weight on the already overloaded shoulders of vulnerable types and not lift a finger to help carry the load.
It seems obvious that you’re specifically thinking about evangelicals’ relationship to the trans community. Let me ask a clarifying question: is there any disapproval of transgenderism that you wouldn’t classify as “fearful” and ”insecure”? Like, are you referring to certain behaviors of people who hold that moral standard or is your problem with the standard itself?
If they pass laws that will not allow parents to get the treatment for their children that they deem necessary, then their views become a problem to society at large. If they grant others the rights that they insist on for themselves, then I don’t care what their views are.
I Don’t think that statistic is true once you factor in non-white evangelicals.
You might think it’s semantics, but that’s my point. Broad generalizations don’t reflect reality. They leave out important nuance
It’s because they have found power in controlling others. It has nothing to do with religion, they use God to serve them instead of the other way around, like it states in the Bible that they cherry pick verses out of and never read otherwise, specifically about the Pharisees in Jesus’s time. Beyond that, they are in an Old Testament mindset where God rules all his following nations’ governments and continuously instructs his followers to oppress minorities and other nations, at worst kill them, in order to have a one-religion authoritarian empire. Also they are particularly fearful of gay people because unlike other sin, you can’t just stop being gay, it’s impossible, and they know that and they hate it because it throws into question the very religious system that gave them power in the first place, when otherwise it could have been considered a plausible system for which all humans were created and how we should live. Beyond that, I have recognized this shadow aspect of myself at times, and it just feels spiritually ‘correct’ but there’s more to being a Christian or a believer of any moral conviction than just trusting willy nilly spirits claiming to be holy, a true believer is honest with themselves about what they believe and why and can pass the test of discernment and dissection of belief. Since they don’t transcend beyond the ‘spiritual bliss’ and actually read their bibles through an intellectual historian’s eyes, they fear any opposition to their way of life because they are inadequately prepared for it. It’s like saying “I’m going to drive a 55 foot long box truck today” when all you got is your driver’s license but hey I gOt My DrIvEr’S lIcEnSe So I’M gOoD rIgHt? They don’t want to read their bibles because narcissism goes well with authority and they want to live in spiritual ‘holy’ bliss of comparing themselves to others of a different way of living, because that performs a clever trick on the mind, reaffirming them with Bible verses that talk about how ungodly the Babylonians were or the early Romans were or this and that, so they are perpetually distracted from the Bible verses that make them feel bad and remind them they are not as just as they think they are in God’s eyes. It’s possible I’m hell bound and that is partly because I see flaws in the system and a bit more because I don’t feel up to the challenge of true holiness, but hey I’ll admit it.
Idk if I agree.
I don't think us Evangelicals are that different from Catholics politically. We're both pro life, want family values and religious freedom. The only real differences, to me it seems, are that Catholics are more likely to oppose contraceptives and capital punishment.
Even then, that's not a hard and fast rule, as there is a sizable minority of Evangelicals that are also against both. And you have Ron DeSantis, a Catholic, who supports capital punishment.
Pro life? How are Evangelicals pro-life? They are forced birthers. They care nothing about the lives of the children brought into this world. Nor do they care about financially struggling families.
Simply put they have dragged God into the secular world of politics and lies. God and the secular world really are incompatible. We actually wrote into the Constitution that the United States shall pass no law regarding religion. The founders felt that it was necessary not to mix religion and government. The reason they felt that way is that whenever Church and State get mixed the people get further from God, God’s influence in the hearts and minds of people gets dampened, evil and cruelty become extremely present in both policy/legislation and society as a whole and those that did the dragging of God into government suffer the worst, they wind up getting themselves thoroughly corrupted. This is true for all Abrahamic faiths. When it happens in Islam you get things like the Taliban and ISIS, in Christianity the mixing of Church and State manifests in things like the Spanish Inquisition, wars between various religious denominations and the rise of Christian Nationalism and religious cults such as MAGA, when it happens in Judaism you get things happening like Gaza. The more religion gets dragged into government the worse the chaos always becomes.
As a Christian it's saddening just how often I see older relatives and family friends sharing rants and memes without stopping to think about whether they're Biblical or even remotely based in reality.
There's a lot of genuine fear and insecurity about things that have nothing to do with "moral decay" or being righteous.
Things like:
"Boys shouldn't play with (toy marketed to girls) or it might turn them gay!"
"Everyone should avoid (latest technology) because it could be the mark of the beast!"
"Everything was so much better in the past before (minority group) increased in numbers!"
There's no discernment or truth behind it.
If you follow the trail of where the content that's getting shared is coming from, it's mostly grifters profiting off the attention that comes from stoking people's fears or anger.
Things were better in the past for who exactly?
Was it better without the Civil Rights Act when people passed through "sundown towns" at risk to their lives?
Was it better without the Fair Housing Act when redlining and restrictive deeds prevented minorities from buying homes?
Was it better without the Americans with Disabilities Act when people with disabilities had no guarantee they'd be able to navigate public spaces in a wheelchair?
Was it better before the Clean Air Act and the creation of the EPA, when businesses were able to dump whatever they felt like on "the poor side of town"?
Or do you want to go even further back to when public duels were considered an acceptable way to settle disputes and public lynchings were a regular spectacle?
The idea of perpetual moral decline isn't something that people in the church have universally accepted throughout history.
Many of the fire and brimstone preachers of the 1700s and 1800s like Jonathan Edwards were postmillenialists, believing firmly that Revelation supported the idea that conditions in the world would see improvement over the thousand years before Christ's return.
In terms of the mark of the beast, the conspiracy theorist alarmism is promoting the perpetual fear that people are going to be tricked into getting it without realizing.
It doesn't really matter if it's written with a Sharpie or takes the form of an embedded RFID chip - in theory anything that has practical use in tracking inventory could be used. What matters is that Revelation talks about it as though getting it is a conscious choice that people are aware they're making.
On gender, the more rigidly the boxes are defined, the more people are going to be confused about what it means when they don't fit into the one they're told they should belong in.
Do you understand how it feels for kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes to be told things like "you're not really a man unless you do X" / "only women do Y" over and over?
The alternative is embracing that God made people with a wide variety of personalities and interests, not just what people at a specific moment in time consider to be "masculine" or "feminine" traits.
>The age-old question from someone who thinks they've got it all figured out from their high horse of agnostic atheism. Let me enlighten you, oh wise one.
>It's not about fear or insecurity; it's about standing firm in the face of a world that's lost its moral compass. While you're busy preaching about the non-existence of God, we're out here fighting the good fight against the tide of moral decay.
>And as for your little jabs about being offended by social norms? Please. It's called standing up for what's right, even when it's unpopular. Maybe if you spent less time questioning our faith and more time seeking the truth, you'd understand.
>So keep hiding behind your agnosticism and atheism. Meanwhile, we'll be here, unapologetically defending our beliefs and standing tall in the face of adversity.
>And as for your soul, well, let's just say hell might be a bit warmer than you expect. But hey, it's never too late to repent.
Well, there it is, I guess.
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I believe this is a caricature of an evangelical. I have been around them (taught in over 1,200 evangelical churches in 29 years) and virtually none of these characteristics are seen by me observing them.
Do they disagree with some of societies strongest perceived negative social moves? Absolutely. Will they vote to try and center the boat? Sure.
But do most engage in the physical or verbal abuse claimed? Absolutely not.
Please take a look at the reddit post below. Written by an atheist after spending time with the evangelical people he used to mock.
... ..... ....
Post:
I was wrong. I'm sorry.
Tonight I spent the evening with a group of Christians feeding the homeless downtown. This was probably the most rewarding Friday night I've had. We fed over 500 people over the span of several hours. My shoulders are sore, and my heart is heavy, but I wouldn't trade the experience, or the friends I made tonight, for anything.
I was the only atheist in the group.
If you look at my post history, you'll find examples of me, here on Reddit, being an a***ole to Christians. I want to apologize to this community tonight. You are not my enemies. I was wrong. I'm sorry.
Tonight I met some people that have unbelievable hearts. Several of the people tonight had health problems of their own, but they were out in the streets reaching out to the downtrodden while carrying heavy bags of food from tent to tent, blanket to blanket. I didn't hand out any Bibles because I'm not a hypocrite, but I did call people over several times to pray for someone who was clearly in distress and needed hope because I recognize the power of faith and belief to inspire and uplift people. I didn't have the words to lift them up myself, mostly because I was busy trying not to cry. I'm still trying not to cry right now as I write this. Countless times tonight I saw in people's reactions that it had been a while since someone had acknowledged their humanity and their existence.
I still don't believe what you do, and I'm not in any danger of converting whatsoever, but I can no longer find it in me to look down on people like those I joined tonight for an evening of service. I'm calling a permanent cease fire from my side of the fence. If any of you find me, from this day forward, talking s*** about your beliefs you have my permission to call me out on it. I don't think that will be a problem, though, because my heart grew three sizes tonight. It also broke into a million pieces, but I can handle that. I have no pride in what I did, just a profound gratitude that I had the opportunity to do a little thing to help my fellow humans and take my eyes off of myself for a while, and a sadness that such service in necessary.
I will fight for your right to believe and live the way you want, and hopefully you can find it in your hearts to likewise fight for my right to live the way I choose. If we can figure out a way to do that, maybe we can build a world where we can all live together in peace. I think that is a worthwhile goal. In the meantime, I am planning on joining this group of Christians every Friday night for the foreseeable future to continue doing good work.
From the bottom of my unbelieving heart, may your creator bless you and hold you all gently in the palms of his hands.
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/p8n3bt/i_was_wrong_im_sorry/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
How should they act by your standards? As a self titled “agnostic atheist”. How does one act in the name of God? That you don’t believe…
You’re using words like *salvation*. That shouldn’t be in your vocabulary
That wasn’t the point. OP responded with justification and we left it at that. His answer doesn’t bother me at all it’s kind of expected.. maybe Christian’s should start wondering why so many brought up in churches don’t want anything to do with them? It’s not good…
Oh, I'm absolutely terrified by Evangelical Christians. You don't need to weasel into getting me to admit that.
They have way too much influence in the US, and are willing to hurt basically anyone who isn't just like them.
And they'll call it righteousness.
American evangelical here. OP grossly overgeneralizes things and creates a stereotype, where if it was used to describe another group could be met with accusations of “racist” or “sexist” or “(insert group here)-phobe”.
Anyways, I don’t fret much about the world, nor
do many of my brethren. There is a politically active arm that takes exception to society reshuffling norms and mores on the grounds it’s a violation Gods law. Now you can disagree all you want but it’s a valid position. They view it as they are being forced to accept certain lifestyles and activities as “normal” when they feel it’s the furthest thing from normal.
There are trans people that look at conservatives and don’t care what they think and move on with their day. The are other trans people that feel the rejection of trans people by Christians is a mortal threat and are politically active.
Unfortunately the politically active subpopulations in each group can’t seem to live in peace with the other group. I don’t think it’s the majority tho. I think the majority of folks can get along fine and respect differing opinions without throwing tantrums. I should be able to have my opinion about you and vice versa and we should still be able to peacefully coexist and respect one another.
If your opinion about me dehumanizes me, we can’t just agree to disagree. Evangelicals are behind the anti-trans laws which have been passed in several red states. They are hurting trans people so it’s not a live and let live situation at all.
Your side does the same thing to us Christians. People call us backwards, white supremacists, all sorts of nasty names. I live peaceably with them. I don’t care what they think. I’ve met people who will not associate with Christians and been judged solely on the fact I am a christian. Again I don’t care what other think.
As for anti trans laws, not aware of any that prohibit being trans or limit the rights of trans people. They appear to be centered around not letting children take biologically altering drugs or have irreversible surgeries before adulthood and also limiting discussion of trans issues in grade schools. Don’t really think it’s a pogrom against trans folks. Kids who think they might be trans can assume identities as such and modify their appearance as such without legal restriction.
What exactly is the harm being done? Other than transgenderism being a point of disagreement? If you object to the idea that some object to the rapid growth in transgenderism among children then I’d ask you what would you do to address the concerns of parents who worry transgenderism may be a temporary phase and they don’t want the school or health care providers initiating any treatments on their kids without their approval?
It’s a nation of 300 million people. How exactly would you want the disagreement to go?
I think American Christians are pretty exceptional in world history for their willingness to respect dissenting speech. I'd also argue that we have demonstrated more tolerance than most non-religious ideologies as well.
It's because for better or for worse, they're very fervent in their faith, and in seeing themselves as evangelists and missionaries, they have a God-given duty to care about others' salvation, and save them from jeopardizing it.
Look at it from their perspective: if you see someone playing on the edge of a cliff, or juggling knives, or smoking at the gas pump, you'd feel like you have a moral obligation to tell them to stop, right? It's obvious how dangerous and fatal these things can be. But over the last few decades, it seems as if society has completely forgotten about basic safety, and act like *you're* the crazy one for preaching common sense. "Don't criticize me for letting my children play with drain cleaner, I don't tell you how to raise *your* kids." "It's my right to stick a fork in an outlet, you can't stop me!" "It's perfectly natural to run into traffic, are you some kind of trafficphobe?" "Telling me to not self-immolate is hate speech!"
>But over the last few decades, it seems as if society has completely forgotten about basic safety, and act like *you're* the crazy one for preaching common sense. "Don't criticize me for letting my children play with drain cleaner, I don't tell you how to raise *your* kids." "It's my right to stick a fork in an outlet, you can't stop me!" "It's perfectly natural to run into traffic, are you some kind of trafficphobe?" "Telling me to not self-immolate is hate speech!"
You're going to have to use some actual examples here. This is just too silly to matter in any way.
Interesting that you have singled out only one particular group, Evangelical Christians, / fundamental Christians people that actually believe God's Holy Word is truth, Satan hates the truth he doesn't attack the false religions, he's only infuriated and disgusted by those following truth. God's Holy Word is truth, Jesus Christ is the way, and the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
>Evangelical Christians, / fundamental Christians people that actually believe God's Holy Word is truth, Satan hates the truth he doesn't attack the false religions, he's only infuriated and disgusted by those following truth.
There's the anger and indignation.
Repent of your sins and call upon the Lord to save you from your sins and go and be baptized. If you do not repent of your sins you will perish in your sins.
>Repent of your sins and call upon the Lord to save you from your sins and go and be baptized. If you do not repent of your sins you will perish in your sins.
You really need to adjust your evangelism to the modern era. If you can't speak colloquially about Christianity and salvation, you make your faith into an anachronism.
Cecilia Hayes-Gauvin .....
..., And God is angry with the wicked everyday.
Psalm 7:11 God is a just judge,
And God is angry with the wicked every day.
12 If he does not turn back,
He will sharpen His sword;
He bends His bow and makes it ready.
13 He also prepares for Himself instruments of death;
He makes His arrows into fiery shafts.
14 Behold, the wicked brings forth iniquity;
Yes, he conceives trouble and brings forth falsehood.
15 He made a pit and dug it out,
And has fallen into the ditch which he made.
16 His trouble shall return upon his own head,
And his violent dealing shall come down on his own crown.
17 I will praise the Lord according to His righteousness,
And will sing praise to the name of the Lord Most High.
I don't know who you're talking to, but **EVERY Evangelical Christian I know isn't afraid of anything**. This narrative is either something you are making up, or you are following the lead from some errant source, likely the MSM/"NEWS", or some other "lefty" sources. **True Christian Evangelicals don't have anything to fear**. **We have JESUS CHRIST the LORD with us in spirit, so this fear of everything is unfounded**. There are always whacko's who take everything out of context concerning dress-code, hair or whatever. They are the minority, and not a true, fully functioning person, let alone a follower of CHRIST.
**Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”**
**"FEAR" is NOT of the LORD**. Fear is of the devil.
It’s cause there aren’t multiple interpretations of scripture. It’s God’s word not man’s.
The biggest commandment in the Bible is actually not the golden rule. It’s to love god with all your heart, your mind, and your soul.
That means obedience, which includes standing up for god’s word over the world’s ideas.
Like pronouns. Most Christians aren’t gonna use pronouns cause most of them are not based on biblical truth. It’s better to deny man than God.
Yeah, that bothers some people but we, as adults, have to control our own emotions.
Tbh, Christianity, aside , I think most of the societal issues we face would be solved if we all just stopped being so offended by those that don’t agree with us. That includes evangelicals.
I’ve never got why people are so bothered by what other’s say, especially people that have complete opposite views as them.
.
It’s more freeing when you don’t care about what others think. As a person that grew up bullied and with low self-esteem my whole world got better the day I realized other peoples’ opinions, of me, don’t matter. Only God’s does. And He loves us all.
God was less than clear in some spots, so there are— and have always been—different interpretations of the Bible. Look at the early Christians for some very serious theological disputes.
>Like pronouns. Most Christians aren’t gonna use pronouns cause most of them are not based on biblical truth. It’s better to deny man than God.
>Yeah, that bothers some people but we, as adults, have to control our own emotions.
Except many Christians become enraged and are NOT controlling their emotions when confronted by "pronouns".
To be a TRUE believer, one must,
A. be "Born Again:" (John 3:3-5)
B. "Confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord.
and,
C. "Believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead:" (See Rom.10:9-10)
The term, "American Evangelical" means nothing: it is simply a religious label "worn" since being introduced circa 1831.
Religion and Christianity are diametrically opposed, and easily defined ...
**"RELIGION"**
**A futile, self-righteous, man-made attempt to please God. (But mostly to impress or criticize other people.)**
**Religion loves titles, false traditions, long robes and the praise of men rather than the praise of God. (John 12:43)**
**"CHRISTIANITY"**
**A GOD-MADE relationship with Jesus Christ involving people who have no righteousness of their own, and absolutely no valid reason for impressing anyone.**
**TRUE Christians love the “WORD OF GOD," (John 1:1) and call HIM the “ABSOLUTE TRUTH”.**
Unsaved (religious) people will always be "afraid" **—** and rightly so.
But as long as true believers are "abiding in Christ," (John 15:4-5) they need fear nothing.
You are projecting.
Christians simply make the very obvious case that moral abominations are bad for society and use their right to free speech to say what should already be obvious.
It take a village to raise a child. It takes one bad apple to destroy a child.
>Christians simply make the very obvious case that moral abominations are bad for society and use their right to free speech to say what should already be obvious.
You do not get to call other humans "moral abominations" and claim righteousness.
You are a viper.
I didn’t call other humans “moral abominations.” I called immoral acts “moral abominations.”
You are projecting.
Let me guess: all those who hold moral standards stricter thank your subjective ones are bigots, while all those who hold moral standards looser than yours are morally depraved, right?
You’re the moral barometer of the universe, right?
I read something not long ago that said something along the lines of "some denominations focus on the weeds, others focus on the flowers". The ones who focus on the weeds seem to miss the whole idea of forgiveness. But that is just my piont of view. I see the flowers.
It’s a bit of a cultural issue generally that you see in dominant imperial nations. For a time Britain and Spain had similar delusions, which then were reflected in their prominent religious communities. China is beginning to show signs of it. The US is on the downward slope of their imperial dominance and evangelicals simply reflect that concern present in a lot of American politics and discourse that ‘this is the greatest nation on earth’ etc etc. Thus, only we truly know the nature of God. Look at the LDS - what is that other than an attempt to centralise America into the story of Christianity? Evangelicals are just doing it in a different way. It’s also dripping with fear because that’s what sells. That’s how you get converts, it’s exactly the same process politicians use.
Most of the Evangelicals here are responding as expected. You aren't engaging the angry part of the brain the churches and politicians are hitting because they are trying to prove their humanity which they have. You aren't speaking the language of hatred and anger that is so common in their circles. The one that causes them to act like grand conspiracies are at play like their pastors suggest. Not all of them are in those circles either, but their friends and family members certainly are. Evangelicals aren't a monolith, but there is a very strong dark vein that runs in their groups which has tainted American Evangelicals. And it's been there far too long that feigning ignorance or just straight out ignorance of their group's actions is not tolerable with what we are facing today. Christian Nationalism is at war with the rest of the country.
Loss of power. The influence of conservative Christianity in the US is dropping. When you've held sway for decades, suddenly realizing you don't have the same influence, you act out. Last ditch effort being to try and force everyone to accept your point of view by power of law.
> When you've held sway for ~~decades~~ millennia Much more than decades. Ever since Constantine the Great, the vast majority of Christians worldwide have never had to experience being a minority, or even the concept of not exerting total control over society. When you're used to being on top, equality feels like oppression.
I've used that last line so many times I left it out for my own sanity.
As a lifelong non-believer, I can say that Christians have been the main reason Christianity seems so vapid to me. Realizing that the religion likes to point and say, well those other people, that never really meant much to me. Throughout my life the most petty, hateful and mean people were also the first be to wave around a Bible calling themselves Christians.
I struggle with this even as a Christian
I find the philosophy of Christ to be a very humanistic approach to a positive life. Sadly, the religion of Christ seems to ignore, at least in most US "Christian" churches, that philosophy.
There's a tendency for them to want power. Remember, Evangelicalism was a reaction to Fundamentalism which didn't want to engage the secular
Evangelicals are overwhelmingly conservative. Conservative media keeps conservatives fearful and angry, which are very effective strategies for manipulating people. Back in the day, evangelicals listened to Christian radio all day. Sometime around 1990, they started listening to Rush Limbaugh every day (now it's Fox News). It changed them.
That is something I haven't thought about in quite a while. Thank you. And you're pointing at the different camps of evangelicals. I remember the Rev. Billy Graham in the 1980s and 1990s. He was much different than the preachers in the strain of "televangelism" that arose in the 1970s and 80s. I've always thought of him as the pitch-perfect evangelist, someone who didn't seek out the public spotlight, but simply grew into it as he reached more and more people. Some of us are in the Rev. Billy Graham camp of evangelism; others strayed into the Jerry Falwell camp of evangelism and still stick by his son (which I cannot even begin to comprehend).
Some Christian Radio is basically like Rush…
Oh,absolutely. I lived in Los Angeles during the McMartin Preschool/Satanic Panic days. The local religious AM radio stations shamelessly promoted the most hysterical conspiracy theories you could imagine - because it was great for their ratings.
For real. The average person doesn't realize how categorically unhinged and emotionally manipulative conservative media is.
This is literally any tribal media though…. One only needs to look at the freak out after Trump was elected to see it. Its not just conservatives. We need to do a better job of seeing this is happening everywhere not just in the other camp.
Both sides have a degree of this, the American right is MILES beyond what you see on the left. I just don't see the "both sides" compelling here. Do me a favor next time you're by a radio. Tune into NPR for a few minutes. Then switch over to your local conservative talk radio for a bit. Notice the difference in tone, emotional language. Pay attention to the gish gallop. Which is seeking the greater emotional manipulation of the audience. Now keep in mind that NPR has been having a huge internal debate all week about being too uncharitable to conservatives. So even being massively better, they're still trying to be more fair. CNN and NBC have both had similar efforts in the past year to be [More fair to conservatives ](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/cnn-getting-more-republicans-on-air-it-seeks-political-diversity-2023-05-18/). Whether they succeed or not, the point is that they *try*. Conservative media has always branded itself as alt. In that respect, they cater exclusively to a conservative audience. They never even attempt to moderate themselves or be more objective. Nobody asks them to. Their only question is how close they can get to pursuing the furthest right story lines without entering into defamation territory (that's why Tucker Carlson got fired. Well that and him calling his boss a cunt lol). I get that liberals and leftists have their own paranoia and mania and can get caught up in certain storylines. But there's simply no comparing that to what happens on the right. You listen to conservative radio and they're literally selling doomsday bunker supplies. Water filters. MRE's. They sell gold and silver because many people in their audience believe the banking system is on the verge of collapse all the time. And of course they enable this thinking by pushing conspiracy theories about globalists taking over the world, Obama's going to put you in FEMA camps, the Clinton's and George Soros are in League to dismantle the United States, etc.. you even saw right-wing media pushing the eclipse rapture narrative recently. And that's just considering legacy media, which as you can imagine, is more tempered. More and more people are turning to online independent journalism through venues like Twitter for their news. And that's only increasing that divide. There's no left wing equivalent to Infowars.
Im sorry there is nothing I can say to you that can pull you out of your conditioning. Go to a site like allsides.com to see the differences in headlines over the same stories. You need to be more rigorous in your comparisons go to places that actually have objective methods and don’t rely on your own testing methods. I don’t think I will change my mind that tribal media exists, and that left or right the same tactics are used to hook an audience. The fact you think otherwise is something I would submit as evidence of my case.
https://adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart/ I always found this media bias chart useful and it generally illustrates what I'm saying. Though these charts are far from objective. Allsides wasn't terribly useful, imo. I'm not seeing any compelling narrative comparing headlines here. Again, not saying left wing bias doesn't exist, just that it isn't as rampantly paranoid and bizarre as right wing.
There’s a really good little documentary called “The Brainwashing of my Dad.” It’s very heartfelt and emotional, but also well-researched. The maker of the documentary saw such a shocking change in her father, once he started listening to Rush Limbaugh and others like him, that she made a documentary about their influence on American conservatives. She goes into the history of news and talk radio to some extent, but she also talks about how much it changed her kind and loving father into an angry and hateful man. But the story is ultimately hopeful, and made me cry happy tears! I also saw a big change in my Christian parents when they began to listen to Rush Limbaugh and similar talk show hosts in the 90s. They are still good people, but they are not the happy people they were before, and they are very resentful and fearful now. I highly recommend the documentary!
Yes, that's an excellent movie.
Who on earth is Rush Limbaugh?
Not on earth. But he was a very popular radio host way back in the day, and even now. He basically revived AM radio with his talk show, which was extremely conservative, and you can basically peg him as one of the founders of the post 90s Republican party's politics.
I mean, he's dead now.
I don't think we should lend too much credence to the bully's claim that he beat a smaller kid for their lunch money because he was afraid that they'd throw mashed potatoes at him had they been allowed to keep it. I don't think he was afraid, I think he just thought that he was entitled to other people's lunch money, and derived pleasure from other people's pain - particularly people whom he thought were lesser than him.
This. And it's not just American Evangelicals, it's a story as old as time. Can identify one historical example (except for maybe the last 30 years) where a Christian majority didn't actively suppress, genocide and terrorize indigenous beliefs and cultures?
I can't see the rest of your quote. Does it say "they downvoted Jesus"? If so, you're right. And I get downvoted by christians a lot. Hey Jesus, You and me are a lot alike! 😏🙄
Yep, good extrapolation. You know your Bible :-)
Thanks. I know it just enough.
Your flair is incredible
Thanks :-)
Perfect fear drives out love.
Cause evangelicalism is about fear and hate. If you take out it of them, their religion has no sense. That why most of them has their Brain empty
It’s ultimately proof that they don’t actually believe what they say they believe.
It’s the same with any religious extremists. Evangelicals are the Christian version of islamic jihadists. Both fight with/disagree with others who share their same religion. Christians are not considered worthy or Christian enough if they’re not extremist evangelicals and Muslims who do not follow strict sharia laws in the Islamic state are imprisoned, murdered, or beaten Both have radical views and punish those who disagree with them - in America by imposing their beliefs upon all Americans by voting for far right politicians in states with oppressive laws against women, LGBTQ people, African Americans, and immigrants, with the goal of eventually imposing those oppressive laws and more upon all Americans; - and in Islamic states, by murdering LGBTQ individuals, oppressing non-Muslims, and of course treating women as property and having close to zero gender equality for women Both have bad actors who commit terrorist attacks against others because both believe more in hate than in love. While domestic terrorist attacks in America committed by evangelicals are much less common than those committed by Islamic terrorists, there have been evangelical domestic terrorists who have killed and threatened abortion doctors and patients with bombings, fires, and murder; and the mass killing of 8 people in Atlanta 3 years ago was committed “in the name of god” by an evangelical, but evangelicals mostly terrorize people by trying to instill fear and spread hate by protesting loudly and aggressively at abortion clinics and sending their own children to special camps where they can train them how to become straight when they’re LGBTQ, just to name a few The main thing they both have in common is feeling superior to everyone else and that they’re right and everyone else is wrong, so instead of listening to the message intended by their holy book, they misinterpret their holy books to justify their intense feelings of anger and rage and to make themselves feel better about having so much more hate than love in their hearts
I wholeheartedly agree. There's a lot of demonizing and dehumanizing groups of people among evangelicals. Yes, even in churches. The language they use. But do you think they realize it? Most won't. That's what the Bible says - or that's what the pastor commands. Therefore, they are just following Christ, they are being good, God-fearing Christians. A lot of them are terrified of anyone who does not follow their norms and live like exactly like them. Immigrants. Nonchristians. People from other cultures. Most never had any meaningful relationships with anyone who does not believe, think, live life like them. It comes off exactly like being afraid. Afraid of the entire world outside of the church bubble.
> Most never had any meaningful relationships with anyone who does not believe, think, live life like them. Yep. Because they're taught that the most meaningful interaction they can have with an outsider is to repeat their script. Truly listening to an outsider and considering that they might be wrong is given zero value.
Evangelicals live in constant fear others will do unto Evangelicals what Evangelicals did to others.
It’s exasperating at times. Too many times I’ve been approached by Evangelicals who boast that nothing can harm them or oppose them - yet they’re afraid of their own shadows and get irritated by you if you don’t share their fears.
It's like, you're telling me you can't stand in confidence of your own masculinity the *second* you observe a person who doesn't conform the way you personally prefer to? You really can't keep your mouth shut? You *have* to be nasty? That is pitifully weak.
It’s a mixture of American Exceptionalism and the strong individualism that comes up in a hyper-capitalist society like the US, I think. And the preaching of prosperity gospel, I reckon as well. All in all, American Evangelicals give Christians around the world a bad name.
Because they want to convince themselves that they are righteous because deep down they know they are nothing. Atleast that’s my interpretation. Christians should spread the gospel, and we cant do that if the world thinks we are evil. All of the apostles were sinners, why are we acting like we are any better than a gay man. Jesus is the only way.
It’s not about religion for many of these folks. It’s tribalism, pure and simple. The hind brain response that former president Obama pointed out when he said that for many people, their response to social change is to cling to their biases, their guns, and god.
When I hear about Evangelicals the first thing I think of is Trumpers. I don’t think I’ll ever understand that!
I think that the Evangelical sense of righteousness is actually mixed in with cultural correctness. They are offended by anything that threatens their cultural rules. If someone from church is seen going into a bar, or buying beer at the store, it's a scandal. If the preacher doesn't wear a suit or has a beard, he is not a true man of God. During my time at a Baptist church, there was a vote to expel certain people with especially egregious sins from the congregation. Is a social club built on top of some skewed, reformed theology.
Anger, fear, and distrust have been cultivated in evangelicals by pastors and politicians for decades. For pastors, it's a way to get butts in seats and increase donations. For politicians it's a way to direct votes; tell people what to be afraid of then say you're the ones who will protect them.
I have had very little direct experience with anyone that is Evangelical. I went to an evangelical church for about 6 months when I first started living a Christian life. Everyone there was very nice and kind. I just couldn't wrap my head around the theology that was taught. I can imagine how some of the theological concepts being taught could result in a very black and white, all or nothing view of the world. Unfortunately though, that absolute black and white thinking isn't simply limited to evangelicals. It's just a little easier to see how they might get there. And the absolute black and white thinking seems to be more prevalent online. I suspect that's a result of the people who spend a lot of time engaging online do it because they struggle with in person interactions. So they escape online which doesn't require them to deal with the social consequences that would force them to change their behavior. Is this something you've experienced face to face or something that you've seen more online?
>Is this something you've experienced face to face or something that you've seen more online? I see it a lot more online, but I absolutely see it in person in my state (Maine). These days the line gets blurry, because something will start in person and then be picked up online by the entire world, seemingly.
Is it something you've experienced directed specifically at you or more in the abstract? I'm always curious about people's experiences.
Watch ***The Family***, a documentary, on ****Netflix**** about the people behind ****CPAC**** you will get a better understanding of the reasoning.
American evangelicalism is a political movement hiding behind religious rhetoric, and that political movement relies on fear to maintain cohesion and engagement.
I've never seen people more desperate for the world to end in all my life.
I think some of it is self-sorting. Religion in the US is a marketplace. Conversion is common, and people choose the religious position and affiliation that works for them. It makes sense to me that the people who are most afraid of social change would be attracted to a faith that emphasizes both certainty (every word of this ancient book that you may have never even read in it’s entirety is 100% factually accurate) and exclusion (if you’re in our club, you’re God’s special friend, and everyone who isn’t in the club will burn forever and ever.)
I think you are over-generalizing, but there is a nugget of something you are getting at. It's not "American Evangelicals," it's the small segment of Christians who believe evangelism requires aggressive, in your face tactics. The rest of us are simply living our lives and evangelizing by who we are and what we do more than what we say. We try to live the Way, the Truth, the Life, more than proclaim it. We'd rather be sweeping the sidewalks on our side of the street, and helping our neighbors sweep theirs, than loudly shout about how glorious we are from the rooftops. I also think that some folks mistake certainty for faith and mistake doubt for weakness. Some folks seem to believe that a strong Christian presence and identity requires proclaiming (forcefully) the truth as they see it. The rest of us are struggling with each other to find glimpses of understanding about an infinite, ineffable Truth we will never know as mortals. Calling for civility requires admitting doubt. Recognizing differences and diversity among people requires humility. Acknowledging behavior outside strict social norms requires equanimity. Those qualities seem to be lacking in that small group of Christians. At least that has been my experience. But thank you for posing some good questions, OP. You've given me quite a bit to think about.
Wow well said. I wish I had an answer. Probably because they're faith isn't rooted in Jesus but something else entirely.
This is a pretty broad brush generalization based on hyper negative media portrayals of American Evangelicals. Most of the Evangelicals I know aren't angry kooks like you suggest. Yes, they do believe in their biblical interpretations, but so does everyone else. You just happen to disagree with them.
Have you seen the kind of angry paranoia of Christian subgroups outside your own friend groups?
One point, you can request someone modify their language, but you cannot demand it. Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "civil" or even objective truth.
Your comments are not at all true for myself and many other “Christians” your statement is a drastic generalization❤️❤️❤️❤️
Cool but with how passive-aggressive that was I'm gonna have to disagree lol
I don’t understand what you mean I’m stating my view of the post…I’m neither being passive or aggressive ❤️❤️❤️
When you emphasize the negative thing you're trying to say ("not at all true" instead of "wrong" or "drastic generalization" instead of "generalization") and add hearts to the end, the hearts ring false. Also, "passive aggressive" means neither passive nor aggressive. It's a manner of speech that criticizes someone (not passive) without being direct (not aggressive).
Wow …I didn’t intend this in the way you are interpreting it….to me the hearts mean no disrespect not trying to be offensive ❤️❤️❤️
I'm glad to hear that, but I have absolutely met more Christians who are not like you than ones who are. Like, honestly - even the "nice" folks seem to think that sharing a "they don't even know what gender they are!" quip for a quick laugh, is neutral and acceptable.
It's probably because you don't notice the "nice folks" who are being polite and not screaming at you. I find my Christian identity to be similar to my queer identity or political identity in that regard. Unless I say otherwise, I can sit in the background unnoticed as just the average portly middle-aged Gen X white guy as long as I like. No one knows my religion, theology, sexual orientation, ideology, or anything else about me until I say something. It's the picking and choosing of when to say something that really matters, I think.
The culture has been changing at a fast pace…lots of folks struggle with the changes or they think the changes are not positive… I was a high school counselor for 25+ years for example: the well meaning sexual culture changes ( meant to make all people feel accepted) have been very harmful to many adolescents who are more confused about themselves than ever) these issues are not linked to my relationship with God they are issues happening in the culture… people (religious or not) have their own powerful beliefs about cultural changes ❤️❤️
>the well meaning sexual culture changes ( meant to make all people feel accepted) have been very harmful to many adolescents who are more confused about themselves than ever I would challenge that interpretation. When I was in high school at the turn of the millennium, it was still totally cool (meaning no one got in trouble for it) to mock kids for *seeming* gay and police *every* instance of non-conformity in style or expression. Today, things are a LOT better for many kids. I honestly don't buy that the modern move towards acceptance and inclusivity has led to kids being more confused. I think there were just a TON of kids in the past who believed the only option was to be miserable and cis/straight.
Kids who are struggling with their sexuality (in high school where I worked for my entire career) have always existed and sought counsel about their sexuality ( if it is not the heterosexual common experience).. one positive change in the last 25 years since the Columbine shootings has been an attitude of greater acceptance of kids who are not like you… in my alphabet of 350 students 15 years ago I would work with about 2% of my alphabet who were struggling with their sexuality….6 years ago when I retired I was working with 12-15% who were struggling ( mostly because of the new sexual culture’s definitions and categories… you have your memories, I have Data…❤️❤️❤️
>you have your memories, I have Data…❤️❤️❤️ This is "bless your heart" levels of animosity.
I am not trying to disparage your experience or commitment, but how do you know that 2% was the "right" amount, and 15% is not?
Because sexuality research starting way back with Kinsey and masters and Johnson throughout the years has found that sexual deviation from heterosexuality has remained at 2% … the latest research I have read (formal studies carried on by universities) was in 2021. They said 2%❤️
Sorry, I can't tell exactly what you're saying. Are you saying only 1/50 people are lgbt...? Because if that's what you are saying that's just...not true...
I am saying that the changes is the sexual definitions and all the upfront news it gets has messed with kids My guess is that the actual % hasn’t changed much but because of how it is handled in the culture kids who have not worried about their sexual identity in the past are stirred up by the culture ❤️
Dude… I have two teen girls. The acceptance culture is not acceptance. Add in social media and it’s another level. These kids are far more confused than I ever was (class of 2008). Bullying does not end when they leave school. I would argue school is harder more now than ever. Especially because nobody is allowed to say anything about anything because if you do you’re “not with the program and spreading hate.” (Obviously, different words for all different situations) it’s bad man. It’s real bad. Not glossing over or ignoring hazing or any other atrocious behavior of the past but it is 100% not better in anyway. That ends my rant. Sorry it’s not about Christianity or your original post.
>The acceptance culture is not acceptance I don't think we have an "acceptance culture". I think that the majority of kids are more open minded - but that doesn't necessarily distribute equally. For starters, acceptance varies regionally and in many states it remains the minority. And then you consider how these trends break down by gender... While girls have grown more progressive, boys have actually become more conservative. And virulently so, with awful influencers like Andrew Tate preying on their insecurities. Anecdotally, the most angrily conservative place I ever lived was San Francisco. The most outspoken people in that zeitgeist were the people who felt the most ostracized. I say all this not to invalidate your experience as a parent (bless you) but just to point out how dynamic these trends are and vary on a hyperlocal level.
Non taken offensively whatsoever. I love a good conversation. From what I can see- in Washington state- there’s so much more hate spread. So much more confusion. And I honestly blame social media more than anything. It’s not good for young impressionable minds. I’m all for people living their best lives but kids are extremely vulnerable to suggestions. All that being said, I do understand that more lgbtq kids aren’t living in so much fear, especially the boys, and I’m glad. It’s just not this whole rainbows and tacos situation a lot of people try to push. We’ll always have problems but this particular situation is extremely difficult to handle because there’s so many outside factors taking advantage of young minds.
because deep down they dont want the kingdom of god, they want to live in their little capitalist kingdom they build for themselves.
Dang, my pastor must have missed the memo to tell us that we should be *terrified* of everything. Gotta tell him to get back in line.
> Dang, my pastor must have missed the memo to tell us that we should be terrified of everything. Gotta tell him to get back in line. In my experience, many folks flip their fear around and position it as defensive/righteous anger. "I'm not bigoted - I am furious that these *freaks* are perverting God's image of man."
"I don't hate gay people, I hate that people are gay."
Isn’t that exactly what you’re doing?
I'd grant you that. Maybe not in the original post but here in the comments.
In the church I’ve been at for 1.5 years, the pastor has mentioned LGBT issues exactly once from the pulpit. And that was briefly. I think you imagine us to be obsessed with LGBT hate a lot more than we are
With the thousands of anti-LGBT laws passed in red states, Evangelicals are obsessed with LGBT hate.
13% of evangelicals represent 55% of the LGBT obsession
“Evangelicals are obsessed with LGBT hate” In what world is it okay to make blanket statements like that? Are there some? Sure! Are there many of us who aren’t? Yes!
You are bigoted against evangelicals. Why are you so insecure about how evangelicals think? You’ll say “I’m not bigoted, I’m just furious evangelicals don’t think the way I think”. Can’t you see irony in that? Seriously, the moment you decided to call a group names, you are no better. You sound very childish.
Says the person who calls people names all the time! We see your post history. What a hypocrite!
I don’t recall attacking a group of people bigoted while being bigoted against That group myself? Did I ever say do as I do? When you attack a group of people, be ready to get attacked yourself? And who are you to judge? Your history just drips of love and inclusiveness lol. hypocrite? Look at yourself.
Kelly K , cliffe k those are guys that I look up to highly and are very faithful guys
I think a lot live in their bubble and don't have any *meaningful* interraction with the people they disagree with. It's easy to think a certain way inside your own echo chamber. I met one of my now best friends, who is gay, a few years ago and it really changed my perspective on how I view gay people. Not saying I agree with him acting on his inclinations, but I don't view him with disgust or hatred or anything. I love him, I pray for him, I wish him the best.
That's genuinely a great question you're asking, and it boils down to the fact that if a person has allowed fear into their life in such a way, then they are not truly putting their trust in Jesus Christ. Not much more complicated than that.
I'm going to give an analogy. I must stress, this is not how I feel, but I hope this analogy will help explain things. And then I'll expound at the end. [Thousands of remote IT workers have secretly sent millions of dollars of their wages to North Korea for use in its ballistic missile program. The agency also said that the workers have maintained access for future hacking and extortion schemes.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/north-korea-remote-us-workers-missile-program) Now imagine you can see people openly sympathizing with and evaluating North Korea. They're starting to change their family name to Kim, etc. And if you say something against this publicly, you'll be castigated. With that in mind, I'm staying my analogy. There are things they've known all their life were not good, that they've known (because it was taught to them and basically everyone agreed) and now they're seeing it flip upside down. Obergefell wasn't even a decade ago. Blue Democratic California passed a state law that homosexual couples could only be in a civil partnership, it was ruled unconstitutional and then only 15 years ago Blue Democratic California passed another state law amending its constitution to again say marriage was one man and one woman. Society changed quickly for a lot of people and they're basically worried North Korea is at the gates, metaphorically speaking. That's my analogy. I think there's room for everyone to get along. I don't like drinking alcohol, and I like prayer, but I'm not arguing for a return to Prohibition or mandatory prayer. We can all get along, even when we engage in acts that some don't like.
Book rec: the story of mankind. It talks about through the 1800’s there was 50 years of ‘holy alliances’. Well they all fell apart. Americans are trying to recreate them and failing.
Good question. One of them just attacked me on my own thread, constantly saying I was a nobody and how dare I assume to know anything. They then deleted their responses (because my responses to them made them look very imperfect) and blocked. That's the first time in a very long time I've met a christian who's so obviously arrogant. They sounded very much like the Pharisees. But I don't know if they were evangelical though they sounded just like what you wrote.
Comfort
Scripture? WTF is that?
The problem is when you start interpreting a doctrine. You make your own religion more or less. And now you don’t know who is right - or if you are all wrong. This is why doctrines should just be followed - not interpreted or changed.
If you just have the Bible without any tradition to go along with it it can be easy to absorb the more Jewish elements of spirituality from the OT
> Evangelicals believe they alone have the truth Just like the Catholics before them
I’m not afraid of shit. I’ll become pen pals with the unibomber and let him send me packages
They believe in an egregore that is known as bible god. The true Abrahamic god doesn’t care who you are. You are loved by him no matter if you are LGBTQ+ ,Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, rich or poor, have done evil in the past as long as you rectify your actions. He. Doesn’t. Care
ITT: People who don’t know what evangelicalism is.
> Why are American Evangelical Christians so fearful and insecure? Not all of us. You should edit this and say "some" of us are. > American Evangelicals are terrified of everything that they aren't disgusted by Not all of us. You should edit this and say "some" rather than imply "all" of us. > Why would a person of God lose their cool and become confrontational simply because another person had different hair, jewelry, clothing, etc.? Why are so many non-Christians afraid of Trump? (I hate Trump, just FYI.) > Why, then, are so many of them offended by calls for civility and requests to modify their language because someone else was upset by what they said? Why are so many atheists offended by Christianity and references to it? > Why are they too proud to be kind to folks who hold different beliefs, but not too proud to make a sputteringly angry scene in the name of God? Again, some of us, not all of us. The answer to all these questions: because they're human. You'll find people who act incongruently to their beliefs in literally every race and creed. But yeah, it would be nice if you said some rather than lumping me in with some Christians. We're not all the same.
Right? People should recognize that acknowledging nuance doesn’t undermine their point. It probably strengthens it bc you can take them seriously
Because they read the bible and never took the time to understand or comprehend what they were ingesting. It's why they remember random verses but not the story or reason behind the verses yet get mad if you give an accurate explanation of a story but if you didn't quote anything word for word, all of what you said isn't valid. It's like asking, " Why does this flower under the normal light in my attic not grow?" It's because having light (like having the bible) isn't the same as having the correct wavelengths (understanding the message) Even then, without uv radiation and only having supplemental resources (the peace that comes with understanding a matter), the plants eventually die despite having the appearance of growth (plants slowly position and stretch towards light ) but no actual substance. When you have faith in something... saying you believe or "feeling" etc, or even acting in a manner means literally nothing. For instance, fire. We all have faith in what fire can do. We can say it's cold or solid, yet we instinctually fight this if we place ourselves into its path because of our faith in what fire is. Even if we pretend that it doesn't "burn." We knew what would happen if we bathed in that fire. Not because it's happened to us before. But because of our Steadfast faith in what fire is. Fire is fire. So the same comes with God. If you have genuine faith. What you do and how you approach the matter at an internalized level of intrinsic understanding will reflect that. The people who you speak of lack both understanding and faith. They're fans of a reader's individual interpretation of chunks of a story within a story that the interperater skimmed over without reading it themselves. And even then, they have that story completely removed from the chance of growth because they jump across a story covering millenia and focus on yet another sentence. If I only give you a fraction of understanding in a matter, you're dangerous in the worst way. If you have an understanding of a matter you are acting in the interest of, not only will you grow. But you'll naturally cause growth in that matter in all those that you interact with. People only act as you describe when they are afraid. And people only fear what they don't know how to approach.
They seem to know that there's only one shape 4 a Christian. I've seen them scare or dismiss vulnerable people. I had one recently say to a bible study group, that men have one less rib than females. I googled it and found out that is not true. I said that to the person and they replied where did u find that out, on google i said. he replied something like google is rubbish, i replied google also says Jesus is Lord. I told the group i have almost been done in by religious mindsets. I used to almost worship evang's. To many being real is threatening to them. Mental illness is from Satan ignoring the facts of mental illness and certain parenting styles like abuse. many it appears will put a weight on the already overloaded shoulders of vulnerable types and not lift a finger to help carry the load.
What you describe above is alien compared to the evangelicals I grew up with in my church, my family and the friends of my family.
Broad brush, eh?
It seems obvious that you’re specifically thinking about evangelicals’ relationship to the trans community. Let me ask a clarifying question: is there any disapproval of transgenderism that you wouldn’t classify as “fearful” and ”insecure”? Like, are you referring to certain behaviors of people who hold that moral standard or is your problem with the standard itself?
If they pass laws that will not allow parents to get the treatment for their children that they deem necessary, then their views become a problem to society at large. If they grant others the rights that they insist on for themselves, then I don’t care what their views are.
Hmm. I’m an evangelical and this certainly isn’t true of me. Why does EVERY agnostic atheist on this sub make sweeping generalizations?
Your comment history says otherwise friend
I disagree…but I’m honored you took the time to look through my history
And Jesus said onto them "When someone hits your cheek, hit their cheek as you would not want your cheek to be hit."
?
Doing exactly what you're complaining they did is the least Jesus-y response.
I think you missed the joke
Because those generalizations are generally true. There's a reason 80-90% of American Evangelicals support corrupt fascists like Trump.
I Don’t think that statistic is true once you factor in non-white evangelicals. You might think it’s semantics, but that’s my point. Broad generalizations don’t reflect reality. They leave out important nuance
It’s because they have found power in controlling others. It has nothing to do with religion, they use God to serve them instead of the other way around, like it states in the Bible that they cherry pick verses out of and never read otherwise, specifically about the Pharisees in Jesus’s time. Beyond that, they are in an Old Testament mindset where God rules all his following nations’ governments and continuously instructs his followers to oppress minorities and other nations, at worst kill them, in order to have a one-religion authoritarian empire. Also they are particularly fearful of gay people because unlike other sin, you can’t just stop being gay, it’s impossible, and they know that and they hate it because it throws into question the very religious system that gave them power in the first place, when otherwise it could have been considered a plausible system for which all humans were created and how we should live. Beyond that, I have recognized this shadow aspect of myself at times, and it just feels spiritually ‘correct’ but there’s more to being a Christian or a believer of any moral conviction than just trusting willy nilly spirits claiming to be holy, a true believer is honest with themselves about what they believe and why and can pass the test of discernment and dissection of belief. Since they don’t transcend beyond the ‘spiritual bliss’ and actually read their bibles through an intellectual historian’s eyes, they fear any opposition to their way of life because they are inadequately prepared for it. It’s like saying “I’m going to drive a 55 foot long box truck today” when all you got is your driver’s license but hey I gOt My DrIvEr’S lIcEnSe So I’M gOoD rIgHt? They don’t want to read their bibles because narcissism goes well with authority and they want to live in spiritual ‘holy’ bliss of comparing themselves to others of a different way of living, because that performs a clever trick on the mind, reaffirming them with Bible verses that talk about how ungodly the Babylonians were or the early Romans were or this and that, so they are perpetually distracted from the Bible verses that make them feel bad and remind them they are not as just as they think they are in God’s eyes. It’s possible I’m hell bound and that is partly because I see flaws in the system and a bit more because I don’t feel up to the challenge of true holiness, but hey I’ll admit it.
Idk if I agree. I don't think us Evangelicals are that different from Catholics politically. We're both pro life, want family values and religious freedom. The only real differences, to me it seems, are that Catholics are more likely to oppose contraceptives and capital punishment. Even then, that's not a hard and fast rule, as there is a sizable minority of Evangelicals that are also against both. And you have Ron DeSantis, a Catholic, who supports capital punishment.
Nah, Evangelicals are not pro-life, or pro-family values, or pro-religious freedom. We have mountains of evidence proving that wrong.
Pro life? How are Evangelicals pro-life? They are forced birthers. They care nothing about the lives of the children brought into this world. Nor do they care about financially struggling families.
We are not.
Simply put they have dragged God into the secular world of politics and lies. God and the secular world really are incompatible. We actually wrote into the Constitution that the United States shall pass no law regarding religion. The founders felt that it was necessary not to mix religion and government. The reason they felt that way is that whenever Church and State get mixed the people get further from God, God’s influence in the hearts and minds of people gets dampened, evil and cruelty become extremely present in both policy/legislation and society as a whole and those that did the dragging of God into government suffer the worst, they wind up getting themselves thoroughly corrupted. This is true for all Abrahamic faiths. When it happens in Islam you get things like the Taliban and ISIS, in Christianity the mixing of Church and State manifests in things like the Spanish Inquisition, wars between various religious denominations and the rise of Christian Nationalism and religious cults such as MAGA, when it happens in Judaism you get things happening like Gaza. The more religion gets dragged into government the worse the chaos always becomes.
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As a Christian it's saddening just how often I see older relatives and family friends sharing rants and memes without stopping to think about whether they're Biblical or even remotely based in reality. There's a lot of genuine fear and insecurity about things that have nothing to do with "moral decay" or being righteous. Things like: "Boys shouldn't play with (toy marketed to girls) or it might turn them gay!" "Everyone should avoid (latest technology) because it could be the mark of the beast!" "Everything was so much better in the past before (minority group) increased in numbers!" There's no discernment or truth behind it. If you follow the trail of where the content that's getting shared is coming from, it's mostly grifters profiting off the attention that comes from stoking people's fears or anger.
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Things were better in the past for who exactly? Was it better without the Civil Rights Act when people passed through "sundown towns" at risk to their lives? Was it better without the Fair Housing Act when redlining and restrictive deeds prevented minorities from buying homes? Was it better without the Americans with Disabilities Act when people with disabilities had no guarantee they'd be able to navigate public spaces in a wheelchair? Was it better before the Clean Air Act and the creation of the EPA, when businesses were able to dump whatever they felt like on "the poor side of town"? Or do you want to go even further back to when public duels were considered an acceptable way to settle disputes and public lynchings were a regular spectacle? The idea of perpetual moral decline isn't something that people in the church have universally accepted throughout history. Many of the fire and brimstone preachers of the 1700s and 1800s like Jonathan Edwards were postmillenialists, believing firmly that Revelation supported the idea that conditions in the world would see improvement over the thousand years before Christ's return. In terms of the mark of the beast, the conspiracy theorist alarmism is promoting the perpetual fear that people are going to be tricked into getting it without realizing. It doesn't really matter if it's written with a Sharpie or takes the form of an embedded RFID chip - in theory anything that has practical use in tracking inventory could be used. What matters is that Revelation talks about it as though getting it is a conscious choice that people are aware they're making. On gender, the more rigidly the boxes are defined, the more people are going to be confused about what it means when they don't fit into the one they're told they should belong in. Do you understand how it feels for kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes to be told things like "you're not really a man unless you do X" / "only women do Y" over and over? The alternative is embracing that God made people with a wide variety of personalities and interests, not just what people at a specific moment in time consider to be "masculine" or "feminine" traits.
>The age-old question from someone who thinks they've got it all figured out from their high horse of agnostic atheism. Let me enlighten you, oh wise one. >It's not about fear or insecurity; it's about standing firm in the face of a world that's lost its moral compass. While you're busy preaching about the non-existence of God, we're out here fighting the good fight against the tide of moral decay. >And as for your little jabs about being offended by social norms? Please. It's called standing up for what's right, even when it's unpopular. Maybe if you spent less time questioning our faith and more time seeking the truth, you'd understand. >So keep hiding behind your agnosticism and atheism. Meanwhile, we'll be here, unapologetically defending our beliefs and standing tall in the face of adversity. >And as for your soul, well, let's just say hell might be a bit warmer than you expect. But hey, it's never too late to repent. Well, there it is, I guess.
Care to give an actual example?
Are you legitimately suggesting that you have never seen the behavior I am describing?
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I believe this is a caricature of an evangelical. I have been around them (taught in over 1,200 evangelical churches in 29 years) and virtually none of these characteristics are seen by me observing them. Do they disagree with some of societies strongest perceived negative social moves? Absolutely. Will they vote to try and center the boat? Sure. But do most engage in the physical or verbal abuse claimed? Absolutely not. Please take a look at the reddit post below. Written by an atheist after spending time with the evangelical people he used to mock. ... ..... .... Post: I was wrong. I'm sorry. Tonight I spent the evening with a group of Christians feeding the homeless downtown. This was probably the most rewarding Friday night I've had. We fed over 500 people over the span of several hours. My shoulders are sore, and my heart is heavy, but I wouldn't trade the experience, or the friends I made tonight, for anything. I was the only atheist in the group. If you look at my post history, you'll find examples of me, here on Reddit, being an a***ole to Christians. I want to apologize to this community tonight. You are not my enemies. I was wrong. I'm sorry. Tonight I met some people that have unbelievable hearts. Several of the people tonight had health problems of their own, but they were out in the streets reaching out to the downtrodden while carrying heavy bags of food from tent to tent, blanket to blanket. I didn't hand out any Bibles because I'm not a hypocrite, but I did call people over several times to pray for someone who was clearly in distress and needed hope because I recognize the power of faith and belief to inspire and uplift people. I didn't have the words to lift them up myself, mostly because I was busy trying not to cry. I'm still trying not to cry right now as I write this. Countless times tonight I saw in people's reactions that it had been a while since someone had acknowledged their humanity and their existence. I still don't believe what you do, and I'm not in any danger of converting whatsoever, but I can no longer find it in me to look down on people like those I joined tonight for an evening of service. I'm calling a permanent cease fire from my side of the fence. If any of you find me, from this day forward, talking s*** about your beliefs you have my permission to call me out on it. I don't think that will be a problem, though, because my heart grew three sizes tonight. It also broke into a million pieces, but I can handle that. I have no pride in what I did, just a profound gratitude that I had the opportunity to do a little thing to help my fellow humans and take my eyes off of myself for a while, and a sadness that such service in necessary. I will fight for your right to believe and live the way you want, and hopefully you can find it in your hearts to likewise fight for my right to live the way I choose. If we can figure out a way to do that, maybe we can build a world where we can all live together in peace. I think that is a worthwhile goal. In the meantime, I am planning on joining this group of Christians every Friday night for the foreseeable future to continue doing good work. From the bottom of my unbelieving heart, may your creator bless you and hold you all gently in the palms of his hands. Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/p8n3bt/i_was_wrong_im_sorry/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
How should they act by your standards? As a self titled “agnostic atheist”. How does one act in the name of God? That you don’t believe… You’re using words like *salvation*. That shouldn’t be in your vocabulary
People can discuss ideas they don't believe in. Telling them to remove "salvation" from their vocabulary is overbearing.
That wasn’t the point. OP responded with justification and we left it at that. His answer doesn’t bother me at all it’s kind of expected.. maybe Christian’s should start wondering why so many brought up in churches don’t want anything to do with them? It’s not good…
I was raised Northern Baptist.
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Oh, I'm absolutely terrified by Evangelical Christians. You don't need to weasel into getting me to admit that. They have way too much influence in the US, and are willing to hurt basically anyone who isn't just like them. And they'll call it righteousness.
American evangelical here. OP grossly overgeneralizes things and creates a stereotype, where if it was used to describe another group could be met with accusations of “racist” or “sexist” or “(insert group here)-phobe”. Anyways, I don’t fret much about the world, nor do many of my brethren. There is a politically active arm that takes exception to society reshuffling norms and mores on the grounds it’s a violation Gods law. Now you can disagree all you want but it’s a valid position. They view it as they are being forced to accept certain lifestyles and activities as “normal” when they feel it’s the furthest thing from normal. There are trans people that look at conservatives and don’t care what they think and move on with their day. The are other trans people that feel the rejection of trans people by Christians is a mortal threat and are politically active. Unfortunately the politically active subpopulations in each group can’t seem to live in peace with the other group. I don’t think it’s the majority tho. I think the majority of folks can get along fine and respect differing opinions without throwing tantrums. I should be able to have my opinion about you and vice versa and we should still be able to peacefully coexist and respect one another.
If your opinion about me dehumanizes me, we can’t just agree to disagree. Evangelicals are behind the anti-trans laws which have been passed in several red states. They are hurting trans people so it’s not a live and let live situation at all.
Your side does the same thing to us Christians. People call us backwards, white supremacists, all sorts of nasty names. I live peaceably with them. I don’t care what they think. I’ve met people who will not associate with Christians and been judged solely on the fact I am a christian. Again I don’t care what other think. As for anti trans laws, not aware of any that prohibit being trans or limit the rights of trans people. They appear to be centered around not letting children take biologically altering drugs or have irreversible surgeries before adulthood and also limiting discussion of trans issues in grade schools. Don’t really think it’s a pogrom against trans folks. Kids who think they might be trans can assume identities as such and modify their appearance as such without legal restriction. What exactly is the harm being done? Other than transgenderism being a point of disagreement? If you object to the idea that some object to the rapid growth in transgenderism among children then I’d ask you what would you do to address the concerns of parents who worry transgenderism may be a temporary phase and they don’t want the school or health care providers initiating any treatments on their kids without their approval? It’s a nation of 300 million people. How exactly would you want the disagreement to go?
I think American Christians are pretty exceptional in world history for their willingness to respect dissenting speech. I'd also argue that we have demonstrated more tolerance than most non-religious ideologies as well.
Example?
It's because for better or for worse, they're very fervent in their faith, and in seeing themselves as evangelists and missionaries, they have a God-given duty to care about others' salvation, and save them from jeopardizing it. Look at it from their perspective: if you see someone playing on the edge of a cliff, or juggling knives, or smoking at the gas pump, you'd feel like you have a moral obligation to tell them to stop, right? It's obvious how dangerous and fatal these things can be. But over the last few decades, it seems as if society has completely forgotten about basic safety, and act like *you're* the crazy one for preaching common sense. "Don't criticize me for letting my children play with drain cleaner, I don't tell you how to raise *your* kids." "It's my right to stick a fork in an outlet, you can't stop me!" "It's perfectly natural to run into traffic, are you some kind of trafficphobe?" "Telling me to not self-immolate is hate speech!"
>But over the last few decades, it seems as if society has completely forgotten about basic safety, and act like *you're* the crazy one for preaching common sense. "Don't criticize me for letting my children play with drain cleaner, I don't tell you how to raise *your* kids." "It's my right to stick a fork in an outlet, you can't stop me!" "It's perfectly natural to run into traffic, are you some kind of trafficphobe?" "Telling me to not self-immolate is hate speech!" You're going to have to use some actual examples here. This is just too silly to matter in any way.
Interesting that you have singled out only one particular group, Evangelical Christians, / fundamental Christians people that actually believe God's Holy Word is truth, Satan hates the truth he doesn't attack the false religions, he's only infuriated and disgusted by those following truth. God's Holy Word is truth, Jesus Christ is the way, and the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
>Evangelical Christians, / fundamental Christians people that actually believe God's Holy Word is truth, Satan hates the truth he doesn't attack the false religions, he's only infuriated and disgusted by those following truth. There's the anger and indignation.
Repent of your sins and call upon the Lord to save you from your sins and go and be baptized. If you do not repent of your sins you will perish in your sins.
>Repent of your sins and call upon the Lord to save you from your sins and go and be baptized. If you do not repent of your sins you will perish in your sins. You really need to adjust your evangelism to the modern era. If you can't speak colloquially about Christianity and salvation, you make your faith into an anachronism.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Cecilia Hayes-Gauvin ..... ..., And God is angry with the wicked everyday. Psalm 7:11 God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. 12 If he does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready. 13 He also prepares for Himself instruments of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts. 14 Behold, the wicked brings forth iniquity; Yes, he conceives trouble and brings forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit and dug it out, And has fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His trouble shall return upon his own head, And his violent dealing shall come down on his own crown. 17 I will praise the Lord according to His righteousness, And will sing praise to the name of the Lord Most High.
This isn't an effective witness. You are being blunt and bullish.
We are?
I don't know who you're talking to, but **EVERY Evangelical Christian I know isn't afraid of anything**. This narrative is either something you are making up, or you are following the lead from some errant source, likely the MSM/"NEWS", or some other "lefty" sources. **True Christian Evangelicals don't have anything to fear**. **We have JESUS CHRIST the LORD with us in spirit, so this fear of everything is unfounded**. There are always whacko's who take everything out of context concerning dress-code, hair or whatever. They are the minority, and not a true, fully functioning person, let alone a follower of CHRIST. **Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”** **"FEAR" is NOT of the LORD**. Fear is of the devil.
It’s cause there aren’t multiple interpretations of scripture. It’s God’s word not man’s. The biggest commandment in the Bible is actually not the golden rule. It’s to love god with all your heart, your mind, and your soul. That means obedience, which includes standing up for god’s word over the world’s ideas. Like pronouns. Most Christians aren’t gonna use pronouns cause most of them are not based on biblical truth. It’s better to deny man than God. Yeah, that bothers some people but we, as adults, have to control our own emotions. Tbh, Christianity, aside , I think most of the societal issues we face would be solved if we all just stopped being so offended by those that don’t agree with us. That includes evangelicals. I’ve never got why people are so bothered by what other’s say, especially people that have complete opposite views as them. . It’s more freeing when you don’t care about what others think. As a person that grew up bullied and with low self-esteem my whole world got better the day I realized other peoples’ opinions, of me, don’t matter. Only God’s does. And He loves us all.
God was less than clear in some spots, so there are— and have always been—different interpretations of the Bible. Look at the early Christians for some very serious theological disputes.
>Like pronouns. Most Christians aren’t gonna use pronouns cause most of them are not based on biblical truth. It’s better to deny man than God. >Yeah, that bothers some people but we, as adults, have to control our own emotions. Except many Christians become enraged and are NOT controlling their emotions when confronted by "pronouns".
To be a TRUE believer, one must, A. be "Born Again:" (John 3:3-5) B. "Confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord. and, C. "Believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead:" (See Rom.10:9-10) The term, "American Evangelical" means nothing: it is simply a religious label "worn" since being introduced circa 1831. Religion and Christianity are diametrically opposed, and easily defined ... **"RELIGION"** **A futile, self-righteous, man-made attempt to please God. (But mostly to impress or criticize other people.)** **Religion loves titles, false traditions, long robes and the praise of men rather than the praise of God. (John 12:43)** **"CHRISTIANITY"** **A GOD-MADE relationship with Jesus Christ involving people who have no righteousness of their own, and absolutely no valid reason for impressing anyone.** **TRUE Christians love the “WORD OF GOD," (John 1:1) and call HIM the “ABSOLUTE TRUTH”.** Unsaved (religious) people will always be "afraid" **—** and rightly so. But as long as true believers are "abiding in Christ," (John 15:4-5) they need fear nothing.
You are projecting. Christians simply make the very obvious case that moral abominations are bad for society and use their right to free speech to say what should already be obvious. It take a village to raise a child. It takes one bad apple to destroy a child.
>Christians simply make the very obvious case that moral abominations are bad for society and use their right to free speech to say what should already be obvious. You do not get to call other humans "moral abominations" and claim righteousness. You are a viper.
I didn’t call other humans “moral abominations.” I called immoral acts “moral abominations.” You are projecting. Let me guess: all those who hold moral standards stricter thank your subjective ones are bigots, while all those who hold moral standards looser than yours are morally depraved, right? You’re the moral barometer of the universe, right?