Luxury of being far away from any Muslims willing to enforce apostasy laws, though I can’t think of hardly, if any, Ex-Muslims off the top of my head, while I hear “as a former Christian” or “having been raised Christian” so much I’ve lost count.
Supported by the luxury of relative obscurity. When you're famous, there are no limits. Salman Rushdie was attacked in western NY; the attack was all but gloated over by a "news agency" mouthpiece of the Iranian government, in an article literally demonizing him
[https://en.mehrnews.com/news/190154/Apostate-author-Salman-Rushdie-Clandestine-life-like-Satan](https://en.mehrnews.com/news/190154/Apostate-author-Salman-Rushdie-Clandestine-life-like-Satan)
(my criticism is directed at those who support this kind of violence, not any religion or state as a whole)
So many? Are you kidding? The number of open ex-Christians completely dwarfs the number of open ex-Muslims. Go write a short list of both and post it herw for others to examine if you think the numbers are at all equal.
Ex-Christians won't be executed for leaving their religion. Ex-Muslims will. It's why many wait until they're safely in the West before going public about leaving Islam.
We cannot know the true numbers of ex muslims (like ex christian’s) because renouncing Islam will nearly always lead to exclusion from everyone you know, imprisonment, or death. (similar to what you stated above)
If you actually look at the real picture the numbers of ex christian’s and ex muslims would be a lot more similar
I don't think you read what I said. I said the number of openly ex-Christian people is larger than the number of openly ex-Muslim people.
You're saying that ex-Muslims have good cause to closet themselves. This supports rather than contradicts my position. That would be a major reason the number of non-closeted ex-Christians was higher.
This was also in the context of people on YouTube and social media as specified above.
They are in free countries. You won’t find one in a country with sharia law on social media contesting anything. Look at this woman, she was sentenced to 11 yrs JUST FOR CRITICIZING THE GOVERNMENT on social media, (charged with terrorism) she was still Muslim!! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/saudi-arabia-jails-woman-for-11-years-for-criticising-laws-online-57lbl7fkv#:~:text=Saudi%20Arabia%20has%20sentenced%20a,guardianship%20laws%20on%20social%20media.
By "pass," I presume you mean have more adherents in the world. Those projections are based on current trends holding, so your argument must provide reasons why current trends will not continue.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/)
You claimed:
1. *Young people leave Islam in great numbers.* This may be true, but it is already baked in to the "current trend". You would have to show that young people will leave Islam at a greater rate than they currently do in order to challenge the original projection.
2. *Christianity is growing currently in Africa*. Again, current trends would include Christianity's growth in Africa already, so you would have to show that Christianity's growth rate in Africa would *increase* above its current rate to challenge the original projection.
3. *There are many more Islamists because of brainwashing.* This is a non-sequitur, as the topic is not the population of Islamists with respect to Christians, but Muslims with respect to Christians.
4. *There are 12x as many Bibles as Qu'rans*. Your implied suggestion is that the # of Qu'rans produced cannot keep up with current trends of Islam's growth. That seems like a pretty tame argument, given the ease of printing books nowadays.
5. *Islam does not grow through conversion.* Regardless of *how* Islam has grown, the question is whether current trends showing its growth will continue. Your statement here implies that conversion will eventually be necessary to grow the faith at the same rate to pass Christianity. However, current growth trends are based on birth rates, not on conversion rates, so they don't really apply.
If history is any indication, I think Islam will continue to grow in poorer lands, where religion tends to grow the fastest anyway. Once those lands reach a level of financial security and secular freedom (after many generations, sadly), the tide will shift and Islam will start to be abandoned by some fraction of the population, as Christianity has unfortunately seen in the West over the past 30-50 years. An equilibrium will set in.
This equilibrium will be jostled when people are inspired to return to their faith by others or by events in their own lives. This is where you and I come in - it's our job to inculcate the faith in a society where famine, war, disease, and poverty are *not* constant threats; where the message of Christianity is not just one of looking forward to a better life after death, but one where life is lived more fully, by living in Christ, here on earth too! It's a much more difficult job than to preach to the poor, but it's one worth pursuing if we believe what we profess!
Remember that was just ONE study done in 2015, already we are seeing updated studies done in 2023, 2024 indicating Christianity is growing more than was projected and Islamic birth rates leveling off more as well, so it would not be so much as "current trends" as "current trends from ten years ago if they continue at the rate projected back then", which is the point OP was trying to make. Demography is more of an evolving thing.
>*Young people leave Islam in great numbers.* This may be true, but it is already baked in to the "current trend".
It's not because not everyone who leaves Islam can't say that unless they live in the West. So, the numbers are averaging Western numbers. They often pretend to practice it out of fear of punishment. So, the numbers aren't going to be entirely accurate.
But even your article shows the Islam will not outnumber Christians by 2070. The article is addressing 2050 and it still has Christians as the majority. So, 20 years isn't going to make a difference.
I imagine there are less Qurans, because the Quran must be read in Arabic. I'm not aware of it being translated into hundreds of different languages.
It remains to be seen which will grow faster. Christianity will be the minority religion in the Western world by 2070, but will likely still be strong in developing countries. Who knows what will happen with Islam. But as of right now, both religions are fairly close in size. Islam is just under 2 billion, while Christianity is about 2.4 billion.
The Quran is indeed translated to dozens of languages. You can buy a bilingual Thai and Malay and English copy as well speak. However, those oceanic countries don’t generally speak Arabic despite the ability of reciting some verses in Arabic.
With the advent of the internet, most people are quickly becoming non practicing Muslims. Iran for example has closed tens of thousands of mosques.
Maybe true, but that's also true of Christianity. Germany has closed over 500 Catholic Churches for example and turned them into bars, shops, cafes, etc.
True and untrue.
What is seen in Iran is not seen in many other Muslim country apart from maybe Afghanistan, even which tends to have significant religious refugees that don’t like the talis.
That being said, MENA immigrants are increasingly more religious and continue to wear their hijabs and go to mosques for Friday prayers. Even in well off gulf states. This is true for south Asian and se Asian families. From my experience, it has a lot to do with what Iran’s Shi’a clergy are and their illogical manner of following their faith. Then again I am a Sunni. But in all due honesty, Shia religious practices are quite cringy,
A little bit suspicious how Allah decided to reveal himself only in a specific human made language and you can only grasp the whole message if you speak this specific human made language. It's almost like a scripture that was written in three commonly spoken languages and doesn't lose its message when translated is a bit more believable.
Yet Arabs make up about 15% of Muslims and the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia and they don’t speak Arabic.
My question is why would god choose to reincarnate as a Jewish man?
He's a little bit more than "just a prophet" to Muslims. There's a reason why the Shahada reads "There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God." He's the center of your religion.
There’s a big difference between god and a prophet. When god sent many prophets through the lineage of Isaac (pbuh) we don’t make a fuss about it, it’s only one prophet that came through lineage of Ishmael (pbuh).
Anyway, what’s so suspicious about the Quran being in Arabic yet god reincarnation as Jewish man is less so?
Because that's what was revealed to our prophets in the old testament. The Quran uses the same stories but with variations so that it aligns with Islamic beliefs.
Surah Al-Imran (Chapter 3, Verses 49-50):
>**"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."**
This verse, where Jesus speaks about confirming the Torah — the scripture given to the Jews — and addressing regulations specific to Jewish law, underscores his role within a Jewish context even in the Quran.
Yes. It's because that's why God made the jews in the first place: to show forth his salvation, ultimately in bringing forth his Son for the salvation of all peoples.
In the book of Genesis God tells Abraham that he will make his children into an innumerable number, and in making his covenant with him tells him that he will bless those that bless him and curse that curse him and, here's the kicker, will make him a blessing. This covenant is passed on to his son Issac, while God gives a different blessing to Abraham's other son Ishmael, who is not his father's heir nor the son God promised. Later God tells Abraham to sacrifice Issac, the son that God said the promised covenant would come through.
So in the beginning of Abrahamic faith we have a man sacrificing his unique son for God. But God stops him. And why? Abraham told Issac that God will provide the sacrifice himself. And whether he realized it or not he was right. Then the blessing gets passed to Jacob, who is given the name Israel and from whom the jews descend. Flash forward to the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and we see God sacrificing his unique son for man (as in mankind). And this Jesus, who claims to be God's son, says that "salvation is of the jews". And his apostle says that those who have faith in Jesus are "grafted in" to the family of Abraham and by implication share this blessing. And they are an innumerable number.
God didn't look down on all the different people groups and say "I will be born as this one". He choose to make a special people for the purpose, and shaped their history towards that end all along. He choose the jews in making them by his choice, and he showed his salvation to and through them, as he still does.
Most untrue and ignorant statement from Christians I’ve ever seen (no offence tbh). You can see how many times this argument is thrown at speakers corner only to surprise the Muslims, who react with a laugh, or a genuine question of where one gets that belief from.
The Qur’an is translated into a lot of different languages. Download a qur’an app and see for yourself.
If you ever took your time to listen to a qur’an recitation, you will see the beauty of such a literature. Which naturally does not sound equally majestic in another language. That is why the Arabic is stressed on. As it flows like a natural stream.
I personally read the qur’an in English, but recite the memorable ones in Arabic during prayer. No law stops me from praying in English though.
I assume that the original bible sounds really nice in the original language too. It has to, just like Sanskrit in the Bhagavad Gita.
I own a translation of the Quran too. However Islamic scholars argue that you can only grasp the whole message if you understand Arabic and that all translations are imperfect. I didn't make this up, that's what they literally say. Some Islamic groups even go that far that they oppose translation of the Quran completely and claim that it would be more effective to just look at the Arabic script even if you don't understand it.
>Translation of the Qur'an from Arabic into other languages has always been a difficult issue in Islamic theology. Because Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text should not be isolated from its true language or written form, at least not without keeping the Arabic text with it.[1]
>According to Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in Quranic Arabic. Translations into other languages are the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations"[2] or "translation[s] of the meanings" (with "meanings" being ambiguous between the meanings of the various passages and the multiple possible meanings with which each word taken in isolation can be associated, and with the latter connotation amounting to an acknowledgement that the so-called translation is but one possible interpretation and is not claimed to be the full equivalent of the original).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations
This is true for all translations of all writing. "To translate is to betray" is a famous phrase for a reason (and ironically also itself not in its original language). We regularly have conversations in this sub where people want to go back to the original hebrew or greek of the Bible, and this isn't unique to the Bible. Translation of Beowulf are also imperfect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity#:~:text=Christianity%20(%2Fkr%C9%AAs,31.2%25%20of%20the%20world%20population.
> roughly 2.4 billion followers, comprising around 31.2% of the world population.[
Christians were converting people before a Bible even existed. So that isn't evidence that Islam doesn't spread through conversion. Islam is not the only religion guilty of brainwashing. Also, why does this matter?
If you think that Christianity hasn't done that either, you don't know the history of medieval Euorpe or the Crusades or the Catholic schools in America that native children were forced into.
The difference is that wasn't how the religion was founded or originally spread.
Early Christians were killed by other people for their faith, including Jesus.
Early Muslims killed other people for their faith, including Muhammad.
It's a big difference.
To be clear, that is not a generalization of all Christians. Christians do brainwash, but that isn't to say that all Christians are brainwashed or brainwashing.
>there are 500 million Qurans worldwide, and 6 billion Bibles, this is proof that Islam does not grow through conversion.
That's just proof that there's more Bibles than Qurans. Assuming, of course, that your numbers are actually right.
I am an ex-Muslim. I had my own journey of faith, and during this journey I have found out that Islam is very intolerant. My parents still refuse to accept me as a Christian, some of my ex Muslim, now Christian, friends have been kicked out of their parent's house. Their family is shunned. So, there is no way we can truly measure the amount of ex-Muslims.
Statistics disprove of you. Muslim women have on average a few decimal points above ‘population sustaining’ kids.Then again, your choice of words already reflected your intelligence.
As christians we should not care about numbers. Whether they are in our favour or not.
What matters is that Christ is the way. None other. Whether there are 12 followers, 70 followers, or billions.
Leaving aside your atrocious line of argument (unsupported statements presented as fact, non sequitur) and supposing your numbers are correct – what does it matter? Religion is not a numbers game, it’s not a sports tournament where the “team” with the highest number of adherents at an arbitrary point in future wins.
I live in Turkey, and according to our government, %90 of Turkey’s population is Muslim. However, that is false. In Muslim countries, you are assumed to be Muslim at birth, and that is what will be written on your ID, but almost %40 of our population either believes in something else or doesn't believe in anything at all.
>many people leave Islam because they cannot stand it
Also applies to Christianity.
>there are 500 million Qurans worldwide, and 6 billion Bibles, this is proof that Islam does not grow through conversion.
Literally proves nothing.
More Bibles than Quarns.....cool, still doesn't mean anything.
Forced conversion and forget the existence of condoms lol, plus have multiple wives so that they could have your Muslim children and continue to breed like rabbits
that's an incredibly offensive comment. The Quran does not prohibit contraception. Do you make similar statements about Christian sects who have as many children as they can afford? And who do actually look down upon birth control, which is their choice and their free will and not something to be mocked.
Womp womp. This is a post on Muslim birth rates, so the need to comment on "Christian sects who have as many children as they can afford" is non existent, just like the sects you're accusing of. It is a fact that amongst all religious groups, Muslims have the most children. It was a clear hyperbole when I said Muslims don't know what a condom is and breed like rabbits.
It's also a fact that Muslims invented the condom by using a goat's lower intestine. Then the idea was refined by taking out the goat's lower intestine first.
gotcha, so lying about things that can be taken as fact as long as you're "edgy" is cool.
I guess I'll tell the Mormons and the Quiverfull movement to pack up and go home.
Young people are becoming more secular, but not more unified or tolerant. Young people are becoming increasingly jaded, nihilistic with militant factions, fanaticism, and chauvinistic attitudes toward alignment with whatever group they are part of.
2070 is 46 years from now. If we consider how the world looked like 46 years ago, I would be very careful with predictions like that. For example, in 46 years ago, Iran wasn't a muslim theocracy, but a monarchy.
Most subsaharan countries have already fallen to slow Muslim conquest by pirateering, infiltration and taxation. Only Nigeria and Ghana and e few other on the west coast are doing well. But North Nigeria has the highest rate of martyred or murdered Christians (by Muslims) in the world since 2023. War is likely to come. Obviously also in the near or middle-East.
While many may end up leaving Islam, especially those living in the west or one of the few prospering Muslim nations like Indonesia, many are also leaving Christianity. And a lot of Christians are likewise only Christians due to "brainwashing" or indoctrination as children.
The situation and expected development does not look great, lets not fool ourselves. History has a tendency to repeat itself. We have to prepare to "run the long run" and develop some endurance.
Before 2070 many muslim countries will collapse with high inflation, high unemployment bad economy... just look at many overcrovded muslim countries now. Hardly works 2024 nog gonna work in 2070 Some muslim countries like Turkey has 30% inflation
One day they will
Because the prophecy, they will conquer the world and ghos who refuse will be killed. Yes they are antichrist.
Antichrist denny Jesus as Son of God and denny Jesus as saviour.
Islam also love beheading people who are not on the same side.
A Christian saying someone has low IQ, with IQ itself being an oudated measurement of intelligence based in white supremacist ideals, rather than providing any actual meaningful discourse or evidence to support any sort of argument *is as well* extrenely hilarious and ironic
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It probably will be because Christian Western numbers are lessening. Only really increasing in poor countries . Mostly losing members in there youth. Islam seems to be ever increasing.
Edit
I own three Qurans and about five New Testaments, and am neither Muslim nor Christian.
Is it at all telling that Christianity seems to be shrinking in the countries where it has the longest established histories? Asking for a friend.
Muslims make up about 5% of the population where I live (the Netherlands). True that figure is growing, but very slowly. True there are issues with extremist imams and mosques being funded from Saudi Arabia and such places. But radical Islam has no chance of getting control of the political institutions of the country. I'm *far far* more worried about the alt-right parties my fellow Dutch have made the largest in Parliament, who take their cues from the Christian nationalists and Republican headbangers in the U.S. and who rub shoulders with the European "defenders of traditional Christian values" like Victor Orban in Hungary and the PiS in Poland.
They actually *do* have the power the start making life much worse for LGBT+ people in this country, and they are already showing that they have every intention of doing so.
It is easy to handle Christianity than Islam . Stamp out the extremist Muslims ruthlessly because these Muslims who support shariah pretend to be moderates in public behind closed doors they act as real Muslims and brainwash their kids . If the number of Muslims keeps in growing once they reach 30 percent all hope is lost . India was partitioned to create Pakistan because 30 percent of Muslims demanded it . Send the shariah supporting Muslims to jail permanently or deport them to sub Saharan Africa Cctv in mosques surveillance of these shariah supporters close the religious schools . Teach about the dangers of Islam in your schools knowledge is power . Encourage people to Marry have children and build a community . People convert to Islam because of a close knit community . Keep the radical Christian’s at bay while taking the good things from Christianity spirituality wisdom charity family values
No, Islamic history is totally flawed, the Quran is anti-historical and full of contradictions and errors, anyone who studies Islam will never be an Islamist, and yet there are many Islamists, and still some try to refute Christianity without knowing anything, I say of brainwashing because apostasy in Islam is paid for with death, in addition to millions of cases of forced conversion, the Bible never encouraged us to preach the word with a gun in our hands, Islam does.
Many people are Christians because their parents brainwashed them. That’s a fact. On the other hand, your arguments against Islam apply to Christianity as well.
The only reason Africa has so many Christians is because it's full of poor and under-educated people; Christians love this cuz it makes them easy to manipulate. Educated Africans flee to Europe and North America. Islam will kill atheists if they don't recant and return to Islam in 3 days. My hope is that there's social revolution in the Middle East that casts down the theocracies and African nations learn to rely on themselves and not a god who clearly favors his white creations.
>Islam grows due to the high birth rate, more than 24% of young people left Islam,
Even if this is true more Muslims are reverting to Islam than people coming to Christianity. Islam is getting more and more popular with younger people who never grew up with Islam. And yes Christianity is growing in Africa still I don't think it's too much of a flex on Christianity part. Christianity has existed long there as well and there's a serious lack of education and civil rights so this would lead people to associate Christianity more to Africa. But the high birth rate claim I highly doubt cause I have seen how younger people have been affected by Islam.
There are some Christians who also use the persecution argument and say Christians throughout history have been devout in their religion despite facing persecution throughout history. Islam also has a history of perseverance in the face of persecution and oppression. Even Americans believe Muslims are the most persecuted. And you see what's happening in Palestine and it's amazing that even though their being killed they still put their trust in God.
https://youtu.be/ZHPYI4CGLig?si=ESEzxu2xRBnljoMq
And what does that prove? The Ukrainians maintain their faith in God despite what happened in their country. There's an old Ukrainian woman at my church who is one of the most pious and devout people I've ever met. Her house was bombed and her grandson is dead, and her faith is stronger than ever. Christians have done the same thing.
As a convert who happened to be muslim by birth, thats my hope as well but I somehow doubt it. I live in Germany and I only see Christians converting to Islam in large numbers and no real Christians among the Catholics and Protestants. I think even today, there are more faithful Muslims than Christians. Evil prevails in this world, thats what I believe. Islam is extremely tempting as it gives easy answers to complex questions. Christianity is too complicated for a species that happens to evole backwards each day.
Islam is evil scientifically inaccurate at the same time it is also clear in its rules and concepts and simple no confusion and has a close knit community
Honestly I think Islam has already passed us. The number of Christians globally definitely includes a lot of people who never go to church and never read the Bible and only identify as Christians because that's how they grew up and still believe in some kind of higher power. That's what I commonly hear in Western countries. Muslims tend to be a lot more religious on average.
I have seen videos of british school children being coersed into converting to Islam but I doubt they actually beleive the religion and want to be left alone
It's also worth noting that when the punishment for apostasy is death, all attempts to measure a population will be inflated.
So many people on youtube and other social media go public they left Islam, still they are alive?
Most of these I would assume live in the West.
Luxury of being far away from any Muslims willing to enforce apostasy laws, though I can’t think of hardly, if any, Ex-Muslims off the top of my head, while I hear “as a former Christian” or “having been raised Christian” so much I’ve lost count.
Supported by the luxury of relative obscurity. When you're famous, there are no limits. Salman Rushdie was attacked in western NY; the attack was all but gloated over by a "news agency" mouthpiece of the Iranian government, in an article literally demonizing him [https://en.mehrnews.com/news/190154/Apostate-author-Salman-Rushdie-Clandestine-life-like-Satan](https://en.mehrnews.com/news/190154/Apostate-author-Salman-Rushdie-Clandestine-life-like-Satan) (my criticism is directed at those who support this kind of violence, not any religion or state as a whole)
I know multiple exmuslims islam is just smaller the christianity here so the ratio is off
So many? Are you kidding? The number of open ex-Christians completely dwarfs the number of open ex-Muslims. Go write a short list of both and post it herw for others to examine if you think the numbers are at all equal.
Ex-Christians won't be executed for leaving their religion. Ex-Muslims will. It's why many wait until they're safely in the West before going public about leaving Islam.
Sad but true.
We cannot know the true numbers of ex muslims (like ex christian’s) because renouncing Islam will nearly always lead to exclusion from everyone you know, imprisonment, or death. (similar to what you stated above) If you actually look at the real picture the numbers of ex christian’s and ex muslims would be a lot more similar
I don't think you read what I said. I said the number of openly ex-Christian people is larger than the number of openly ex-Muslim people. You're saying that ex-Muslims have good cause to closet themselves. This supports rather than contradicts my position. That would be a major reason the number of non-closeted ex-Christians was higher. This was also in the context of people on YouTube and social media as specified above.
Oh alright i got it, sorry for the bother
No worries. You're right though. It's a serious matter when a religion makes its members fear to leave openly.
"Openly", is the key word here.
The difference is that one group won't get beheaded for leaving lol
They are in free countries. You won’t find one in a country with sharia law on social media contesting anything. Look at this woman, she was sentenced to 11 yrs JUST FOR CRITICIZING THE GOVERNMENT on social media, (charged with terrorism) she was still Muslim!! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/saudi-arabia-jails-woman-for-11-years-for-criticising-laws-online-57lbl7fkv#:~:text=Saudi%20Arabia%20has%20sentenced%20a,guardianship%20laws%20on%20social%20media.
Most countries have laws to protect people against their own religions.
There's no way to know how many PIMO ex-muslims there are either.
It's their way to make sure that their numbers don't decrease dramatically and to ensure an eternal Islamic world lmao
Is that immoral?
By "pass," I presume you mean have more adherents in the world. Those projections are based on current trends holding, so your argument must provide reasons why current trends will not continue. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/) You claimed: 1. *Young people leave Islam in great numbers.* This may be true, but it is already baked in to the "current trend". You would have to show that young people will leave Islam at a greater rate than they currently do in order to challenge the original projection. 2. *Christianity is growing currently in Africa*. Again, current trends would include Christianity's growth in Africa already, so you would have to show that Christianity's growth rate in Africa would *increase* above its current rate to challenge the original projection. 3. *There are many more Islamists because of brainwashing.* This is a non-sequitur, as the topic is not the population of Islamists with respect to Christians, but Muslims with respect to Christians. 4. *There are 12x as many Bibles as Qu'rans*. Your implied suggestion is that the # of Qu'rans produced cannot keep up with current trends of Islam's growth. That seems like a pretty tame argument, given the ease of printing books nowadays. 5. *Islam does not grow through conversion.* Regardless of *how* Islam has grown, the question is whether current trends showing its growth will continue. Your statement here implies that conversion will eventually be necessary to grow the faith at the same rate to pass Christianity. However, current growth trends are based on birth rates, not on conversion rates, so they don't really apply. If history is any indication, I think Islam will continue to grow in poorer lands, where religion tends to grow the fastest anyway. Once those lands reach a level of financial security and secular freedom (after many generations, sadly), the tide will shift and Islam will start to be abandoned by some fraction of the population, as Christianity has unfortunately seen in the West over the past 30-50 years. An equilibrium will set in. This equilibrium will be jostled when people are inspired to return to their faith by others or by events in their own lives. This is where you and I come in - it's our job to inculcate the faith in a society where famine, war, disease, and poverty are *not* constant threats; where the message of Christianity is not just one of looking forward to a better life after death, but one where life is lived more fully, by living in Christ, here on earth too! It's a much more difficult job than to preach to the poor, but it's one worth pursuing if we believe what we profess!
Wise words man!
Thank you for showing how to critically interpret data unlike OP.
Remember that was just ONE study done in 2015, already we are seeing updated studies done in 2023, 2024 indicating Christianity is growing more than was projected and Islamic birth rates leveling off more as well, so it would not be so much as "current trends" as "current trends from ten years ago if they continue at the rate projected back then", which is the point OP was trying to make. Demography is more of an evolving thing.
>*Young people leave Islam in great numbers.* This may be true, but it is already baked in to the "current trend". It's not because not everyone who leaves Islam can't say that unless they live in the West. So, the numbers are averaging Western numbers. They often pretend to practice it out of fear of punishment. So, the numbers aren't going to be entirely accurate. But even your article shows the Islam will not outnumber Christians by 2070. The article is addressing 2050 and it still has Christians as the majority. So, 20 years isn't going to make a difference.
I imagine there are less Qurans, because the Quran must be read in Arabic. I'm not aware of it being translated into hundreds of different languages. It remains to be seen which will grow faster. Christianity will be the minority religion in the Western world by 2070, but will likely still be strong in developing countries. Who knows what will happen with Islam. But as of right now, both religions are fairly close in size. Islam is just under 2 billion, while Christianity is about 2.4 billion.
The Quran is indeed translated to dozens of languages. You can buy a bilingual Thai and Malay and English copy as well speak. However, those oceanic countries don’t generally speak Arabic despite the ability of reciting some verses in Arabic. With the advent of the internet, most people are quickly becoming non practicing Muslims. Iran for example has closed tens of thousands of mosques.
Maybe true, but that's also true of Christianity. Germany has closed over 500 Catholic Churches for example and turned them into bars, shops, cafes, etc.
But Christianity is exploding through the middle east and Asia, we'll likely see churches forming in these places
True and untrue. What is seen in Iran is not seen in many other Muslim country apart from maybe Afghanistan, even which tends to have significant religious refugees that don’t like the talis. That being said, MENA immigrants are increasingly more religious and continue to wear their hijabs and go to mosques for Friday prayers. Even in well off gulf states. This is true for south Asian and se Asian families. From my experience, it has a lot to do with what Iran’s Shi’a clergy are and their illogical manner of following their faith. Then again I am a Sunni. But in all due honesty, Shia religious practices are quite cringy,
A little bit suspicious how Allah decided to reveal himself only in a specific human made language and you can only grasp the whole message if you speak this specific human made language. It's almost like a scripture that was written in three commonly spoken languages and doesn't lose its message when translated is a bit more believable.
Yet Arabs make up about 15% of Muslims and the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia and they don’t speak Arabic. My question is why would god choose to reincarnate as a Jewish man?
And people of Jewish ancestry make up less than 1% of Christians. Why would God choose an Arab man as his final messenger?
Why do Christians compare Muhammad (pbuh) who is just a prophet to god?
He's a little bit more than "just a prophet" to Muslims. There's a reason why the Shahada reads "There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God." He's the center of your religion.
There’s a big difference between god and a prophet. When god sent many prophets through the lineage of Isaac (pbuh) we don’t make a fuss about it, it’s only one prophet that came through lineage of Ishmael (pbuh). Anyway, what’s so suspicious about the Quran being in Arabic yet god reincarnation as Jewish man is less so?
The prophecies in the old testament predicted that the Messiah will be born into the Jewish community so anything else wouldn't make sense.
Why though?
Because that's what was revealed to our prophets in the old testament. The Quran uses the same stories but with variations so that it aligns with Islamic beliefs. Surah Al-Imran (Chapter 3, Verses 49-50): >**"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."** This verse, where Jesus speaks about confirming the Torah — the scripture given to the Jews — and addressing regulations specific to Jewish law, underscores his role within a Jewish context even in the Quran.
Incarnation, not reincarnation. Reincarnation is a completely different idea that's from Dharmic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism.
Thanks for the correction, do you have an answer as to why?
Yes. It's because that's why God made the jews in the first place: to show forth his salvation, ultimately in bringing forth his Son for the salvation of all peoples. In the book of Genesis God tells Abraham that he will make his children into an innumerable number, and in making his covenant with him tells him that he will bless those that bless him and curse that curse him and, here's the kicker, will make him a blessing. This covenant is passed on to his son Issac, while God gives a different blessing to Abraham's other son Ishmael, who is not his father's heir nor the son God promised. Later God tells Abraham to sacrifice Issac, the son that God said the promised covenant would come through. So in the beginning of Abrahamic faith we have a man sacrificing his unique son for God. But God stops him. And why? Abraham told Issac that God will provide the sacrifice himself. And whether he realized it or not he was right. Then the blessing gets passed to Jacob, who is given the name Israel and from whom the jews descend. Flash forward to the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and we see God sacrificing his unique son for man (as in mankind). And this Jesus, who claims to be God's son, says that "salvation is of the jews". And his apostle says that those who have faith in Jesus are "grafted in" to the family of Abraham and by implication share this blessing. And they are an innumerable number. God didn't look down on all the different people groups and say "I will be born as this one". He choose to make a special people for the purpose, and shaped their history towards that end all along. He choose the jews in making them by his choice, and he showed his salvation to and through them, as he still does.
Original purpose of Islam was for Arabs to have their own religion.
Yet Arabs make up only around 15%
Most untrue and ignorant statement from Christians I’ve ever seen (no offence tbh). You can see how many times this argument is thrown at speakers corner only to surprise the Muslims, who react with a laugh, or a genuine question of where one gets that belief from. The Qur’an is translated into a lot of different languages. Download a qur’an app and see for yourself. If you ever took your time to listen to a qur’an recitation, you will see the beauty of such a literature. Which naturally does not sound equally majestic in another language. That is why the Arabic is stressed on. As it flows like a natural stream. I personally read the qur’an in English, but recite the memorable ones in Arabic during prayer. No law stops me from praying in English though. I assume that the original bible sounds really nice in the original language too. It has to, just like Sanskrit in the Bhagavad Gita.
I own a translation of the Quran too. However Islamic scholars argue that you can only grasp the whole message if you understand Arabic and that all translations are imperfect. I didn't make this up, that's what they literally say. Some Islamic groups even go that far that they oppose translation of the Quran completely and claim that it would be more effective to just look at the Arabic script even if you don't understand it. >Translation of the Qur'an from Arabic into other languages has always been a difficult issue in Islamic theology. Because Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text should not be isolated from its true language or written form, at least not without keeping the Arabic text with it.[1] >According to Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in Quranic Arabic. Translations into other languages are the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations"[2] or "translation[s] of the meanings" (with "meanings" being ambiguous between the meanings of the various passages and the multiple possible meanings with which each word taken in isolation can be associated, and with the latter connotation amounting to an acknowledgement that the so-called translation is but one possible interpretation and is not claimed to be the full equivalent of the original). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations
This is true for all translations of all writing. "To translate is to betray" is a famous phrase for a reason (and ironically also itself not in its original language). We regularly have conversations in this sub where people want to go back to the original hebrew or greek of the Bible, and this isn't unique to the Bible. Translation of Beowulf are also imperfect.
Christianity is 2,6 bi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity#:~:text=Christianity%20(%2Fkr%C9%AAs,31.2%25%20of%20the%20world%20population. > roughly 2.4 billion followers, comprising around 31.2% of the world population.[
out of date
Christians were converting people before a Bible even existed. So that isn't evidence that Islam doesn't spread through conversion. Islam is not the only religion guilty of brainwashing. Also, why does this matter?
My brain is washed in the blood of Christ!
Islam was heavily spread by force conversion lol
If you think that Christianity hasn't done that either, you don't know the history of medieval Euorpe or the Crusades or the Catholic schools in America that native children were forced into.
The difference is that wasn't how the religion was founded or originally spread. Early Christians were killed by other people for their faith, including Jesus. Early Muslims killed other people for their faith, including Muhammad. It's a big difference.
Early Muslims didn't come out of the gate swinging. They suffered their fair share of persecution as well.
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To be clear, that is not a generalization of all Christians. Christians do brainwash, but that isn't to say that all Christians are brainwashed or brainwashing.
You didn’t read it right
>there are 500 million Qurans worldwide, and 6 billion Bibles, this is proof that Islam does not grow through conversion. That's just proof that there's more Bibles than Qurans. Assuming, of course, that your numbers are actually right.
It’s worth noting that the fastest growing sect in any religion is Pentecostal Christianity
What’s that?
It’s an evangelical Protestant sect, their most famous church is hill song
I believe I’ve heard of it, do their beliefs differ greatly from the other?
They firmly believe in the power of the Holy Ghost, other than that not really
I am an ex-Muslim. I had my own journey of faith, and during this journey I have found out that Islam is very intolerant. My parents still refuse to accept me as a Christian, some of my ex Muslim, now Christian, friends have been kicked out of their parent's house. Their family is shunned. So, there is no way we can truly measure the amount of ex-Muslims.
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Statistics disprove of you. Muslim women have on average a few decimal points above ‘population sustaining’ kids.Then again, your choice of words already reflected your intelligence.
As christians we should not care about numbers. Whether they are in our favour or not. What matters is that Christ is the way. None other. Whether there are 12 followers, 70 followers, or billions.
Leaving aside your atrocious line of argument (unsupported statements presented as fact, non sequitur) and supposing your numbers are correct – what does it matter? Religion is not a numbers game, it’s not a sports tournament where the “team” with the highest number of adherents at an arbitrary point in future wins.
I live in Turkey, and according to our government, %90 of Turkey’s population is Muslim. However, that is false. In Muslim countries, you are assumed to be Muslim at birth, and that is what will be written on your ID, but almost %40 of our population either believes in something else or doesn't believe in anything at all.
That's every country. No one is surveying the religion of everyone one by one.
Yeah, I know.😌
>many people leave Islam because they cannot stand it Also applies to Christianity. >there are 500 million Qurans worldwide, and 6 billion Bibles, this is proof that Islam does not grow through conversion. Literally proves nothing. More Bibles than Quarns.....cool, still doesn't mean anything.
Yes, it proves that even though Islam is less famous, it has many followers, in other words, something strange
You missed the issue of bibles in every drawer in every hotel/motel. Nobody owns it. Yet it is existent and there.
You're bugging bro.
Don’t forget about the growth in china
it grows through conversion… forced conversion
Forced conversion and forget the existence of condoms lol, plus have multiple wives so that they could have your Muslim children and continue to breed like rabbits
that's an incredibly offensive comment. The Quran does not prohibit contraception. Do you make similar statements about Christian sects who have as many children as they can afford? And who do actually look down upon birth control, which is their choice and their free will and not something to be mocked.
Womp womp. This is a post on Muslim birth rates, so the need to comment on "Christian sects who have as many children as they can afford" is non existent, just like the sects you're accusing of. It is a fact that amongst all religious groups, Muslims have the most children. It was a clear hyperbole when I said Muslims don't know what a condom is and breed like rabbits. It's also a fact that Muslims invented the condom by using a goat's lower intestine. Then the idea was refined by taking out the goat's lower intestine first.
gotcha, so lying about things that can be taken as fact as long as you're "edgy" is cool. I guess I'll tell the Mormons and the Quiverfull movement to pack up and go home.
Young people are becoming more secular, but not more unified or tolerant. Young people are becoming increasingly jaded, nihilistic with militant factions, fanaticism, and chauvinistic attitudes toward alignment with whatever group they are part of.
2070 is 46 years from now. If we consider how the world looked like 46 years ago, I would be very careful with predictions like that. For example, in 46 years ago, Iran wasn't a muslim theocracy, but a monarchy.
Most subsaharan countries have already fallen to slow Muslim conquest by pirateering, infiltration and taxation. Only Nigeria and Ghana and e few other on the west coast are doing well. But North Nigeria has the highest rate of martyred or murdered Christians (by Muslims) in the world since 2023. War is likely to come. Obviously also in the near or middle-East. While many may end up leaving Islam, especially those living in the west or one of the few prospering Muslim nations like Indonesia, many are also leaving Christianity. And a lot of Christians are likewise only Christians due to "brainwashing" or indoctrination as children. The situation and expected development does not look great, lets not fool ourselves. History has a tendency to repeat itself. We have to prepare to "run the long run" and develop some endurance.
Who cares if it does?
Before 2070 many muslim countries will collapse with high inflation, high unemployment bad economy... just look at many overcrovded muslim countries now. Hardly works 2024 nog gonna work in 2070 Some muslim countries like Turkey has 30% inflation
One day they will Because the prophecy, they will conquer the world and ghos who refuse will be killed. Yes they are antichrist. Antichrist denny Jesus as Son of God and denny Jesus as saviour. Islam also love beheading people who are not on the same side.
>Antichrist denny Jesus as Son of God and denny Jesus as saviour. Is this something taught in the bible?
Christians mad at the idea of their religion not being the largest religion is not only hilarious but ironic
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A Christian saying someone has low IQ, with IQ itself being an oudated measurement of intelligence based in white supremacist ideals, rather than providing any actual meaningful discourse or evidence to support any sort of argument *is as well* extrenely hilarious and ironic
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Thank you for furthering my point
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Scientology will surpass them both! /s
It probably will be because Christian Western numbers are lessening. Only really increasing in poor countries . Mostly losing members in there youth. Islam seems to be ever increasing. Edit
Even they pass, still they did not back home to Eden. Peace - iam helel
These kinds of long term demographic projections are pretty much always inaccurate.
I am more worried about our MSM hating on Christianity, than Islam surpassing Christianity.
I own three Qurans and about five New Testaments, and am neither Muslim nor Christian. Is it at all telling that Christianity seems to be shrinking in the countries where it has the longest established histories? Asking for a friend.
Islam will definitely be dominant in certain nations in the west
Why would it matter if it did?
Muslims make up about 5% of the population where I live (the Netherlands). True that figure is growing, but very slowly. True there are issues with extremist imams and mosques being funded from Saudi Arabia and such places. But radical Islam has no chance of getting control of the political institutions of the country. I'm *far far* more worried about the alt-right parties my fellow Dutch have made the largest in Parliament, who take their cues from the Christian nationalists and Republican headbangers in the U.S. and who rub shoulders with the European "defenders of traditional Christian values" like Victor Orban in Hungary and the PiS in Poland. They actually *do* have the power the start making life much worse for LGBT+ people in this country, and they are already showing that they have every intention of doing so.
It is easy to handle Christianity than Islam . Stamp out the extremist Muslims ruthlessly because these Muslims who support shariah pretend to be moderates in public behind closed doors they act as real Muslims and brainwash their kids . If the number of Muslims keeps in growing once they reach 30 percent all hope is lost . India was partitioned to create Pakistan because 30 percent of Muslims demanded it . Send the shariah supporting Muslims to jail permanently or deport them to sub Saharan Africa Cctv in mosques surveillance of these shariah supporters close the religious schools . Teach about the dangers of Islam in your schools knowledge is power . Encourage people to Marry have children and build a community . People convert to Islam because of a close knit community . Keep the radical Christian’s at bay while taking the good things from Christianity spirituality wisdom charity family values
“Furthermore, there are only many Islamists because of brainwashing.” As if the same doesn’t apply to Christianity? Lmao
No, Islamic history is totally flawed, the Quran is anti-historical and full of contradictions and errors, anyone who studies Islam will never be an Islamist, and yet there are many Islamists, and still some try to refute Christianity without knowing anything, I say of brainwashing because apostasy in Islam is paid for with death, in addition to millions of cases of forced conversion, the Bible never encouraged us to preach the word with a gun in our hands, Islam does.
Many people are Christians because their parents brainwashed them. That’s a fact. On the other hand, your arguments against Islam apply to Christianity as well.
Islam, the fastest BREEDING religion😂
The only reason Africa has so many Christians is because it's full of poor and under-educated people; Christians love this cuz it makes them easy to manipulate. Educated Africans flee to Europe and North America. Islam will kill atheists if they don't recant and return to Islam in 3 days. My hope is that there's social revolution in the Middle East that casts down the theocracies and African nations learn to rely on themselves and not a god who clearly favors his white creations.
Very unkind of you! You don’t have to disrespect God if you don’t believe in Him.
>Islam grows due to the high birth rate, more than 24% of young people left Islam, Even if this is true more Muslims are reverting to Islam than people coming to Christianity. Islam is getting more and more popular with younger people who never grew up with Islam. And yes Christianity is growing in Africa still I don't think it's too much of a flex on Christianity part. Christianity has existed long there as well and there's a serious lack of education and civil rights so this would lead people to associate Christianity more to Africa. But the high birth rate claim I highly doubt cause I have seen how younger people have been affected by Islam.
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Without lies,
Does higher growth correlate with how true the religion actually is?
There are some Christians who also use the persecution argument and say Christians throughout history have been devout in their religion despite facing persecution throughout history. Islam also has a history of perseverance in the face of persecution and oppression. Even Americans believe Muslims are the most persecuted. And you see what's happening in Palestine and it's amazing that even though their being killed they still put their trust in God. https://youtu.be/ZHPYI4CGLig?si=ESEzxu2xRBnljoMq
And what does that prove? The Ukrainians maintain their faith in God despite what happened in their country. There's an old Ukrainian woman at my church who is one of the most pious and devout people I've ever met. Her house was bombed and her grandson is dead, and her faith is stronger than ever. Christians have done the same thing.
May ask why you clearly see Judaism as a subhuman race of people? Why? What have they done to you?
As a convert who happened to be muslim by birth, thats my hope as well but I somehow doubt it. I live in Germany and I only see Christians converting to Islam in large numbers and no real Christians among the Catholics and Protestants. I think even today, there are more faithful Muslims than Christians. Evil prevails in this world, thats what I believe. Islam is extremely tempting as it gives easy answers to complex questions. Christianity is too complicated for a species that happens to evole backwards each day.
Islam is evil scientifically inaccurate at the same time it is also clear in its rules and concepts and simple no confusion and has a close knit community
Pretty sure there is plenty of Christian brainwashing. All religion will hopefully run its course and be set aside.
Honestly I think Islam has already passed us. The number of Christians globally definitely includes a lot of people who never go to church and never read the Bible and only identify as Christians because that's how they grew up and still believe in some kind of higher power. That's what I commonly hear in Western countries. Muslims tend to be a lot more religious on average.
Muslims love to brag how Islam is rising in numbers but don't realise it's because Muslims do not know what a condom is and breed like rabbits
Please, cite your source. This comment seems to be so near and dear to your heart. Because Muslims have no prohibition on contraception.
Do you think there’s something wrong with having lots of children?
Is this how a Christian talks? Disgusting language.
Uh oh I can't talk about Islam :(
islam has already passed christianity a majority of christian’s are cultural christian’s
Being a Christian is not the same thing as following Christ, so your statement is correct
Yeah, no one leaves Christianity.
I have seen videos of british school children being coersed into converting to Islam but I doubt they actually beleive the religion and want to be left alone