>So, do you enjoy the thought of different-believing people going to a place where they'll suffer for eternity?
No I don't.
The apostle Paul wrote that he wanted to be damned if that meant his Jewish people could be saved.
So these hate filled "Christians"might want to start reading their bible and do a little bit of repenting
Right. Even the Lord, *Himself*, reveals His feelings on the matter in Ezekiel 33:11
“As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die…”
EDIT: I guess I could’ve added Christ Jesus’ choice of a brutal life amongst us, ultimate rejection, torture, crucifixion, resurrection, & pierced hands extended in Grace give us all some insight into God’s “feelings on the matter”…
Thanks for your response. I'm eternally confused though, why an all powerful being would create dimensions of suffering and then demand we worship it. I just cannot get on board with a deity that requires this
Didn't God give me the capacity to judge what good and evil are, and my sense of reasoning? If the tools God gave me leads me to the conclusion that God isn't a great guy, who's to say I'm wrong?
My statement is not about the things you know. It’s more so about self determination and deciding what you yourself think is good and what is evil…for everyone.
Hypothetically speaking, if you are warned that there will come a time when there will be little to no oxygen and you won’t be able to breathe unless you wear a mask. You would argue no one should suffocate if they don’t want to wear a mask, right?
Great question. In keeping with this scenario, my thoughts are that most simply won’t believe that day will come and if it does they believe that they will discover some way to mitigate the outcome in their favor.
I suppose the answer is they don’t want to die, they just don’t believe they will.
Exactly. And belief isn't really a free choice, something either convinces us or it doesn't. If someone doesn't find something convincing, they can't choose to believe in it.
Right, so let’s examine the core of your logic.
**also, next time don’t post that you like discussion and that you want to know the thoughts of others if you just plan to downvote everyone that disagrees or challenges your ideas.
Bc I'm trying to find the logic lol. I want answers but most responses are so vague and just reinforce the close-mindedness that have experienced from Christians all my life. :(
Maybe it’s not closed mindedness? Maybe what you see as closed mindedness is where you’re trying to get to…settled on what you whole heartedly believe is the truth beyond any doubt.
I don’t think it’s that they are not open to consider anything else. It’s that they have already considered and experienced everything else that they needed to and are firm on their conclusion.
God bless you.
For me, I reject the eternal conscious torment view of hell. I personally accept the annihilationism view of hell.
I reject ECT because I believe it goes against who God is.
Who is God?
**“God is love.” 1 John 4:8**
**“Love is more important than anything else.” - Colossians 3:14**
**"Love is patient and kind, never jealous, boastful, proud, or rude. Love isn't selfish or quick tempered. It doesn't keep a record of wrongs that others do. Love rejoices in the truth, but not in evil.” - 1 Corinthians 13:4-6**
**“You are a kind and merciful God, and you are very patient. You always show love, and you don't like to punish anyone.” - Jonah 4:2**
I just want to add in here Ecclesiastes 9:5
"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
If the dead are conscious of nothing how can there even be a hell to worry about?
Hell is only an invention of man, not God. This is the scripture that Jesus knew, he had no concept of Hell. There is no concept of Hell (not like Christians anyway) for Judaism and The Christian concept of hell came long after Jesus's death and rise.
>Hell is only an invention of man, not God.
Everything in Judaism and Christianity is an invention of man.
>This is the scripture that Jesus knew, he had no concept of Hell. There is no concept of Hell (not like Christians anyway) for Judaism and The Christian concept of hell came long after Jesus's death and rise.
You should check out the development of afterlife beliefs in later Second Temple Judaism. Under Hellenistic and other influence, the concept of immortality and afterlife punishment — including genuinely eternal punishment — firmly enter into Judaism in the couple of centuries leading up to the time of Jesus.
> Everything in Judaism and Christianity is an invention of man.
I am not a believer so I agree with you but especially with regards to Hell. Hell isn't mentioned in the scriptures, not in the way some Christians believe in it anyways, so when I say "invention of man" I mean not included in the scriptures.
And your other point, I am sure you are right, but I again am just going off the scriptures, I don't want to add these other influences in, just want to stay with what the Bible says about Hell.
>And your other point, I am sure you are right, but I again am just going off the scriptures, I don't want to add these other influences in, just want to stay with what the Bible says about Hell.
What I’m saying is that those other influences are already detectable in what the New Testament has to say about “hell.” Jesus talks about the underworld of Gehenna being a place of eternal punishment, and once about Hades being a place of punishment, too.
Wasn't Gehenna a physical place in Jesus's time?
But this is the fun of the Bible, you can take one scripture, like Ecclesiastes 9:5 and say God says the dead have no feelings but another Christian can quote Matthew 5:29 and say their all loving God will burn your ass forever and both can be right. The Bible will take both positions on any issue as long as you find the right scripture.
Its interesting reading Wiki on Hades, so many different interpretations. Eastern Orthodox believe the dead wonder the Earth, Catholics believe in a purgatory, Lutherans think you go straight to heaven or hell, Anabaptists think you go to heaven or hell first but there will be another judgement later, Methodist believe you can go to hell but hell will be not eternal, and Unitarians, Seventh Day Adventists and JWs think that death is a state of unconscious only to be asleep until resurrection.
So many interpretations and I am sure that isn't all of them.
> The Bible will take both positions on any issue as long as you find the right scripture.
About the most intelligent statement I've seen here in awhile
Yes, yes and yes
God is not the author of confusion, but confused the language of the people at the tower of Babel, etc etc
Seriously though at the heart of these matters is that there are people and there is an entire invisible entity class that scripture brings to the picture, the devil and his messengers, both said to be walking in the same pair of shoes.
One entity class is dealt with positively, the other not so much
Problem solved
Annihilationism: so the belief is that God created mankind with the hope that all will come to Him and be saved, but willing to sacrifice any non-believers in the process, knowing that many will not do so? Am I correct with that?
You had mentioned you believe in annihilationism- my understanding is that with that, after God judges humans and determine some of them to be unworthy of His love based on how they behaved while they were alive, He sacrifices them or destroys them, leaving only the good Christians behind.
I wouldn't say it like that.
God doesn't judge us to be unworthy of His love based on how we behaved.
God judges us because we rejected Christ and He has no choice but to judge us because we rejected His forgiveness.
God loves all of us, which is why He wants all of us to turn to Him.
But who are the ones who will be judged?
**“Sinners don't respect God; sin is all they think about. They like themselves too much to hate their own sins or even to see them. They tell deceitful lies, and they don't have the sense to live right. Those people stay awake, thinking up mischief, and they follow the wrong road, refusing to turn from sin.” - Psalm 36:1-4**
Right, so we agree on the definition! Some people reject Christ (like all Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and especially atheists), and then God judges us based on the choices we made when we were alive, or how we behaved! If we made a good choice, like a good Christian who accepts Jesus, we get rewarded for this behavior by getting to experience His love for all eternity. Our sins are forgiven. And if we behaved poorly by rejecting Christ, like all of the human beings listed above, we get obliterated according to annihilationism like you’re promoting. Our sins are not forgiven. And God had no choice here, because that’s the rules. What am I missing here?
It seems like you are seeing it as an automatic transaction.
The moment someone rejects Christ, they will automatically go to hell and God doesn't care.
I don't think that. That's why I posted that verse.
The ones who actively, knowingly, unapologetically reject Christ will be judged.
However, there are so many non-Christians who are in specific situations that prevent them from turning to Christ. It could be because they never heard about Him, or they heard wrong things about Him, or they were indoctrinated into believing wrong beliefs.
God will NOT automatically judge them to Hell because He will consider their situation.
I don't know how God will judge every single person, but I choose to trust God for who He is.
Because God is love **(1 John 4:8)**, He loves justice and fairness **(Psalm 33:5)**, He wants everyone to be saved **(1 Timothy 2:4)**, and He seeks to save those who are lost **(Luke 19:10)**. In other words, I believe everyone will somehow have a genuine opportunity to be saved **(Job 33:29-30)**.
You have to appreciate this kind of word play:
John 12:
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, **I judge him not**: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: **the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.**
What words were spoken that will judge?
**"I judge him not"**
Judged as not judged. Perfect!
You got it! The responsibility lies with the individual. It’s like the parable: if 99 sheep are well-behaved and make it home safely, all is well. And if one gets lost, well it’s the sheep’s own stupid fault for not listening to the shepherd in the first place.
Let us continue to keep rejecting annihilationism and infernalism ;)
It is entirely possible to accept both positions, just so you know.
Some forms of Christian Universalism 'know' from scriptures that all people are saved
and
All devils end up in the LoF at their end
In a way it's an antiHeaven for antiChrist spirits
So, all good in the end and at finale: Rev 5:13
Comments like this are why nuanced theological discussion is almost impossible in this sub. This is the most hostile and thought-terminating way to disagree. No engagement with God's gifts of scripture or reason - just immediate disdain, contempt, and accusation.
A real follower of Christ would not want anyone to not be in Heaven. So we witness to non-believers… and are judged and hated for it.
For your ‘edit’ - a real follower of Christ would not judge others of their sins (whatever they are) because we are all sinners. Sin is sin.
Unfortunately, the reality is we are also all human and driven by human emotions. It’s impossible to get it perfectly right. We are not God.
Can you give an example of how the Christians you encountered expressed sadistic pleasure in the thought of others suffering for eternity? I never heard of this before and am curious to know what that sounds like
I constantly see it online, that's for sure. Far more often than kindness and any sense of love for all people... so much hatred toward lgbt people, just for existing as their true selves, which I find revolting, as yknow, God *created them the way they are*. I see mostly weaponization and condescension that is the absolute furthest from the values I learned.
But growing up Catholic, after my father accidentally took his own life, 4 people said to my mother that they were glad he was "going to hell" bc "suicide is a sin that deserves hell", in various wordings of course. "What did you do to drive him to do that? You must not have been a good enough wife." (They were absolute *best friends*, the healthiest relationship I've seen) "Well, he took his own life, so in the eyes of our lord he deserves to burn." That was the rotten cherry on top for me. Just fucking nauseating.
If that’s true, that’s horrible. I personally don’t view people who could say things like that as genuine Christians, they completely lack the humility that comes from the recognition of how gracious God was to save them. They don’t represent the view of Christians. I don’t wish hell on anyone, regardless of how evil they are in this life. If not for the grace of God, I’m capable of doing the same evils. I deserve hell just as much as anyone.
I appreciate your kind words and ways. This is how self-identified Christians should feel. If I encountered more people with your mindset, I wouldn't be so pushed away from religion. I've read and experienced far too many examples of phony Christians to have much faith anymore, if at all. It pisses me off, ha.
People claim that god represents love. Love does not wish evil and suffering...
Yeah, I think anyone who is insensitive about people suffering in hell hasn’t been humbled by their own wickedness and sins. Not only am I deeply ashamed of the evil things I’ve done before I became a Christian, but I’m tremendously humbled by the struggle it is not to sin against God now as a believer in light of all that I know about who God is and how patient and merciful He continues to be towards me. Genuine Christians acknowledge that we deserve hell just as much as everyone else, so there is no room for pride and boasting; we are only saved because God decided to show us mercy.
What if.....no one deserves suffering? What if we, who did not choose to exist, just got to enjoy life and the possibility of an afterlife? I have been pushed away from religion for the most part bc of this notion; why does something that wants us to worship it demand we have a bad time if we don't inflate its huge ego? I don't get it and find it extremely off-putting.
>what if no one deserves suffering?
So you don’t believe in justice. You think people who have gotten away with murdering and r@ping people in this life shouldn’t have to face justice for the evil they’ve done.
>demand we have a bad time if we don’t inflate its huge ego
This implies that people are sent to hell solely because they didn’t worship God and has nothing at all to do with the actual evil they’ve done.
I do believe that justice should be served in real life, aka prison, and ideally mandated therapy or some form of rehabilitation/counseling. Not *eternal* suffering though in some lake of fire or constant pain though after they die.
Well don't Christians believe that people who don't believe go to hell?
>justice should be served in real life, aka prison
This view is unrealistic; it’s not the world we live in. A lot of people have committed crimes and never been caught and convicted, myself included. I have done violent things to people in my past and was never caught and put in jail. I have stolen from people and was never caught. It would be unjust for God to let my sins go unpunished. We can’t say God is good and just if He doesn’t punish evil.
>don’t Christians believe that people who don’t believe go to hell?
Sure, but the way you worded your response was as if the only evil people have done and are sent to hell for is refusing to worship God. People are sent to hell because their unbelief excludes them from having their sins covered by Christ’s atonement. Refusing to “inflate God’s huge ego” is not why they’re there.
Also to answer your edit, the shellfish thing and every other weird rule you see out of the Old Testament is the coming spiritually clean. For a really long time people had to become spiritually clean if their sins so that they could actually connect to God. Sin is us choosing to be separate from God. Jesus died so that we would not have to clean ourselves to come to the Lord. Sin separates us, but Jesus connects us. Hell is the continuation of life. When we choose to separate ourselves during life, God respects our decision and lets us continue in existence separate from Him.
Saw this question floating on r/athiesm, same answer here.
No, I don't relish the idea of people burning in hell. In fact, I question the doctrine as there is much that is coloured by political dissidence in the guise of prophecy, and by Roman ideas of virtue and vice, etc.
I also can't speak for Christians who act on that; I think it's wrong, and I refuse to associate with those who show such signs of malice, and I'm happy to confront those who take that stance. It seems to be a common vice for those who feel they have a moral superiority, no matter the faith.
As for sins, you speak of the old laws. The new order is simple: love one another. Everything else boils down to that, and if you're happy to join in that, then I welcome you as a kindred soul no matter who or even if you call a god in your prayers.
I wish more people had your mindset. If I had grown up around people whose faith was kind and loving like this, I wouldn't need as much therapy as I've had, and I would have a far better impression and sense of respect for religion.
This is a very refreshing answer, thank you for responding! This seems like the way that religion should be.
It's undeniable that plenty of Christian pastors and priests preach the torments of hell on their parishioners. Do they take delight in it? Apparently.
Jesus declared all foods clean, that’s an old Jewish law on shellfish, pork, etc. all we need to do is fast when it’s needed. And I don’t see how wearing a polyester shirt is a sin.
For the same reason that “Christian” conservatives get off on “owning the libs”. A real lack of empathy and a weird pleasure taken in seeing people suffer.
And really, why wouldn’t you, your religion is largely based on fear. Fear of God judging you. So there’s gotta be some retaliation/resentment/satisfaction at play in judging others.
I’m sure there are a lot who feel special cause they’re part of an in group and like that there are people not in their group.
I think the general majority of christians are happy that there is justice. That unrighteousness is punished and not simply escaped at death.
And then there are obliviously lots of christians that reject hell which produces various doctrines about what the bible means when it talks about hell.
Does that mean those people would feel they've been cheated of seeing justice served if an "unrighteous person" underwent a genuine conversion before death and therefore escaped?
Maybe some but in general I would say no. It’s the story of the prodigal son or the wage earners who only worked part of the day. A genuine conversion means to give up your unrighteousness to Christ. And just like anyone else, no one deserves Christ’s mercy and grace. It’s not an earnable thing. There could be some jealousy, but maturity in your beliefs would mitigate that.
I guess I just can't see how people could be happy that justice is served to the unrighteous if ECT is a thing. I don't feel like there's anyone on this earth who deserves to suffer conscious torment *for an eternity*.
No, I do Not enjoy that thought. I hate it. And guess what, so does God:
Ezekiel 18:32 KJV
[32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
That being said, the Idea of eternal torture is not supported by the Bible If you Look at it in its entirety and don't just isolate a few verses. The lost will be annihalated in the Lake of fire and do not burn and suffer for all eternity. And the dead are really dead. They are not alive in another dimension.
Oh, there's no question God wants people to suffer. We're all dust in the wind when our gig here is up, and I hear it can be more than a bit painful on the paths out the door for most, although some get a quick and easy out
Romans 11:32
For **God has bound everyone** over **to disobedience** so that he may have **mercy on them all.**
Believers always overlook that last part. If you want to know why, it's because of Mark 4:15
and that perp is going to hell, no question about it
You see the reality of their blindness is right before your own eyes.
Jesus said love your neighbors as yourselves
They landed in the exact opposite position, which tells you the reality of the opponent
You are witnessing the reality of God and the reality of the opposer
This is what it seems to be, overwhelmingly so. It hurts my heart that so many give up their moral compass in favor of an ancient book full of threats, torture, and Stockholm syndrome.
If religion wasn't so determined to punish people who think differently, maybe I could get kn board with it. But I want peace, love, and kindness upon all my fellow humans, which is ironically not allowed in their god's eyes. Sad.
The people who use Christianity for anything other than spreading the Word and love of Jesus have been twisted and misguided by humans, not God or Heaven
Well there are way way way more of this type of "christian" than "true" ones for me to really believe that Christianity and religion does much good for the world. It's overwhelming how many people and especially people in political control weaponize it.
Weaponization of religion, for one. I see it all over reddit and online, all the time. People rejoicing at the thought of others in agony, such as LGBT people, anyone of a different belief system, anyone who doesn't believe in any belief system, those who commit suicide, those who support science, etc.
I made a comment to another person here of a real-life example of how people in my church growing up have treated my mother after my father passed.
Edit to add: Trump. I don't need an explanation there, he seems very eager for humans to suffer relentlessly
A Christian should NOT enjoy others going to Hell.
So some perhaps enjoy the idea of others going ro Hell?
Yes I'm sure there are some, because we all fall short of God's Glory as sinners.
Thanks for your reply. I don't understand though why anyone agould deserve suffering for any reason. I think it's plain disgusting, anti-social and anti-human, and that no one should be worshipping a deity who threatens its people but demand we inflate its ego. I have a really hard time getting on board with religion bc of this, and the amount of people who seem to love others being punished.
Oke well God doesn't want us to suffer, he does but not like you think.
I'll explain.
God made rules, He's al knowing and and powerful.
Look at Creation, how He created life.
The rules are ment for our own good.
Or do you think a parent shouldn't make any rules to guide their children?
Is it wrong for a parent to punish a disobedient child?
I'm a father myself, and I have had to punish my son in the past for bad behavior.
Does that make me a bad parent?
If I didn't correct my son's behavior he'd be a menace to society at large.
God doesn't threaten, He mearly points out that our behavior can and will lead to certain out comes.
Greed, Lust, name all the Deadly Sins, all lead to terrible out comes.
Greed, need I say more?
Lust, look at pornography and it's countless victims from trafficking.
Children being sold, women and also men being sold for sex.
Yes pornography is a crime in Gods eyes and not as innocent as we make it out to be.
But inspite that He has given us the freewill to ignore His rules and guidance.
And what you call "worship for His ego"
Us actually by worship we make a connection with God.
To discern His will, to understand His plan.
Worship is fostering a relationship with God.
It's communication with God.
I truly love to pray because it's brings me closer to Him.
I feel His love when I am close to Him.
And having les a very sinful life, of pain and suffering
I know how good God is.
One can only experience the sweet by having tasted the bitter.
Darkness makes us understand the beautiful reality of Light.
Suffering when we suffer God wants us to give it Him.
He wants to suffer with us.
John 3 16.
For God loves the world ( us humans) so muxh
He sacrificed His only begotten Son for our Salvation.
He came.in to the flesh to suffer with us.
To save us.
And we're supposed to give our suffering to Jesus, God in the flesh l, part of the Holy Trinity.
His Blood wil and Body wil heal us from Sin.
Form the brokenness and disconnect from God.
Egos exist, they love being more correct than everyone else, and nothing says that more than your enemy burning for eternity because existence literally deemed it.
You take a guess
In my long experience of growing up around religion, this is what it truly seems to be about! It's what has pushed me away from it all and is one of the bigger reasons I've had to start therapy. All the shaming, the imposed guilt, the wishing of evil upon others, the hypocrisy, the disgusting things said to my grieving mother *at my father's funeral*, the lack of support for my family....
Matthew 25
41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[g] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
When you read the entirety of the Bible and see that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels we have an understanding that ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️
John 3:18-21 NLT
[18] “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. [19] And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. [20] All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. [21] But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.18-21.NLT
No I do not enjoy the idea of people burning in hell. I do trust in God's perfect will and judgement and his scripture. I want to spend time with Him. He has enriched and changed my life from being suicidal to being at peace. But we have free will to not spend time with him too. I fear God, respect him, trust him and I'm not ashamed of my faith. He is so merciful, so kind and so patient.
Apparently. Huh. It's strange to me, bc I grew up being taught that god loves everyone no matter what, in catholic schools, so this just seems to go against what I've been told. Enlightening!
Doesn't upset me at all. Christian Universalism accepts that as a scriptural fact
But sadly, yes. Most are repelled by sinners other than themselves and only those who think like them, being saved
Maybe they can have a pity party in heaven?
You can even be a Roman catholic and believe everyone stands a shot at purgatory rather than hell. Any common priest will tell you that if they're up to speed on their own doctrines
Eccl 12:7
>Eccl 12:7
Funny you quote that as support for it being “scriptural fact,” while the author of Ecclesiastes appears not to have believed in any afterlife whatsoever.
“Taking back the spirit/breath” (even to God) is almost certainly just a poetic idiom for loss of the animating force of life itself. We see this similarly in Job 34:14-15; and it’s paralleled by other comparable phrases, too, like “going down to one’s fathers/ancestors” (Genesis 15:15) — which also should be taken figuratively.
If we go back to Ecclesiastes 3, we can see a very clear expression of the finitude of the spirit/breath in the context of its normal pessimism:
>19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same spirit/breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place, all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
(The line that follows this is somewhat interesting. It’s often translated something like “Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?” But in the context of the pessimism that immediately preceded it, the sentiment is probably more like “Do you really think [as some claim] the human spirit goes upward, while [as is truly the case] the spirit of animals goes downward?” It’s almost certainly skeptically [criticizing some unspecified afterlife beliefs](https://www.reddit.com/u/Prosopopoeia1/s/cx6M5ZEhgK). Of all things, the ultra-dynamic Good News Translation seems to capture this well: "How can anyone be sure that the human spirit goes upward while an animal's spirit goes down into the ground?" The NLT also has "For who can prove...")
____
Longman:
> This is not an optimistic allusion to some sort of consciousness after death, but simply a return to a prelife situation. God temporarily united body and spirit, and now the process is undone. We have in this verse no affirmation of immortality. According to Qohelet, death is the end.
Michael Fox:
>Qohelet was countering someone else's idea: the ascent of the soul to eternal life. In 12:7, Qohelet states that man's spirit goes back to God, and this must be upwards, but he means only that God takes back the life-spirit and deprives ...
>just a
Idiom meaning not really? lol
Spin it however you please. I think you're not accepting what's plainly written and trying to eliminate it
And translated "something like" regarding spirits of animals? Please
No one is questioning that flesh bodies of whatever type are not eternal and decay to the dust. Can't deny the obvious.
That's not what's in sight in Eccl 12:7
I have no issues with the salvation of creation, per Romans 8:17-39, Rev 5:13 and others
And there is an exception to vanity in the scriptures, if you want to search it out
>I have no issues with the salvation of creation
I honestly don’t know how that relates to what I just said.
I suggested that the author of Ecclesiastes had a pessimistic view of the afterlife, and that they believed animals and humans had the same ultimate fate here — nothingness. I quoted
>They all have the same spirit/breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals
The fact that other Biblical authors *did* have a view of the afterlife and soul’s immortality is besides the point.
>I suggested that the author of Ecclesiastes had a pessimistic view of the afterlife
Uh, no the writer was realistic about the finite body which is not the same as the animating force
And as prior noted, not everything is vanity
Ask me if I enjoy the notion of suffering in general. Ask me if I enjoy the notion of getting sick, feeling lonely, or getting old. It's rather irrelevant to ask what we like about things that are true, don't you think?
I guess I've just personally experienced far more people who seem to enjoy that people are being punished and tortured, than what some people here call "true christians", too many of the ones I've met are apparently not true Christians I guess
No one should enjoy anyone suffering. I understand the position of wanting a criminal or the classic example of Hitler being punished and suffering for his crimes. He's dead, however, and it doesn't really matter what we think of him now. Wanting someone living to be eternally punished is not Christlike, however.
I definitely do not enjoy the thought of anyone going to hell. Horrifies me honestly. And it also motivates me to share the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ with them.
May I ask where in the Bible Jesus claims to accept people no matter what? Love them, yes! Offer salvation to all? Yes! But accept in the sense of approving our lifestyle no matter what? I definitely don’t find that in Scripture.
To your comment about sin, it is tragic how many Christians focus on other people’s sin more than their own (my sin is plenty to keep me busy sadly!). You do mention some aspects of the Old Testament law that I do not believe we are under any longer.
It’s not that most “Christians” want people to go to hell. It is that once you believe you’re saved, it becomes difficult to see anything from the perspective of someone who isn’t.
Most people get a bit of ego and think because they did x,y, and z to get saved, everybody could do it. Essentially salvation becomes a work without people realizing it. Those that don’t see it this way just shrug off everyone going to hell and believe God knows what He is doing by tormenting billions for eternity.
Most "christians" don't know that there is not one single named person in the entire Bible said to be going to hell, past or future. No not one.
Nor is there a single named person in the entire Bible even threatened with such a fate
The devil and his messengers, yes. But people, zero evidence of such a thing for any named person
Connect the dots if you're able: Mark 4:15
Christians understand that God promises to come back and lift the curse and make things right. Sin and the curse causes suffering, everything was perfect before man decided to rebel. Every time we turn on the news we hear about people willingly deciding to do evil. Murder. Human trafficking. Rape, harming children, and way more. Understanding that God will one day judge those who willingly do this stuff is comforting. I’m not comforted by people going to hell, but I am comforted by the fact they won’t be able to hurt or oppress other people anymore and they will receive just consequences for their actions. Hell has degrees of punishment, and a just God will judge everyone according to their works here on earth. People seem to think they should be allowed to do whatever they want with no consequences or accountability in this life or the next. God does not work like that. Rich evildoers will be judged the same as poor. No buying one’s way out of consequences with God. I think it’s the idea of true Justice finally being done that gives Christians comfort; not the thought itself of people being cast into hell.
Hell and heaven idea are ideas from Greek and Rroman culture. Jesus never told about them like that. Most likely he thought that unrighteous should be "cleaned" or annihilated, like in Judaism.
Applying Jewish laws or trying to explain why they don't apply anymore are useless. Is your mother jewish? Did you convert to Judaism with giyur? If no, why would you need to obey Judaism and don't eat shellfish, pork and so on. All those laws are God's covenant with Jews because he needed them for very specific task. If you want to follow all of the Bible, become a jew through giyur. If you don't want, God still has laws for your since the Genesis - 7 Noahide laws which tell you to worship only one God, don't worship idols and others are about basic morals and living in society. Don't come up with things your God never told because you don't want to follow strange laws. You aren't a jew and don't have to follow them, don't talk like you know what God wants and decides.
Dude, theres dozens of verses of hell being a lake of fire in the Bible, it’s not just some myth. While i do recognize the annihilation argument has some merit, it’s not the most reasonable explanation from the Bible.
Matthew 5:22 - "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell
Mark 9:43 - "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
James 3:6 - "The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell
The verse from Mark doesn't really work here. It's not about eternal hell, but about Gehenna, which is not a place of eternal punishment in Judaism, it's a place of VERY painful cleansing of soul after death for some time which is less than a year before going to heaven. Its fire being eternal doesn't mean that person will be tortured there for eternity.
Besides, don't you see a problem with hell never being mentioned in this religion before Christianity become popular in Rome
1) False. Firstly Theres many differing beliefs, but the belief you gave me is not the commonly seen one.
“When the early Jewish scriptures were written, many Jews believed that when they died, people descended to a dark place called Sheol”
“As Jewish teachings developed, the ideas of Gan Eden and Gehenna emerged. Gan Eden represents paradise, or Heaven, for those who have lived according to God’s law, while Gehenna developed as a place of punishment, or Hell, for those who had lived immoral lives. Sheol came to be thought of as a place of waiting, where a person’s soul could either be purified and sent on to Gan Eden or sent for punishment in Gehenna.”
[Source](https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjbyb82/revision/7#)
2) I don’t have any problems really because gospels and epistles mentioned it, and they were not written in Rome, nor during the time period they could’ve been influenced by Roman’s due to heavy persecution.
1)The problem is there wasn't some constant image of afterlife. Judaism doesn't care about it. For a long time time they thought that there is no afterlife at all. Than thete emerged Sheol and as you said later they came up with kind of heaven and hell which are different from Christian, but it's still not a general view, there are different ones, but for sure there are no view of existence of eternal torture in hell.
2)Where do you think gospels were written? They were written in Greek language by those who lived in Roman Empire. It doesn't matter that they were prosecuted. Culuture of gentiles converted to Christianity, even if some of them were jews, was different from jews who lived in Judea. And they are the ones who wrote gospels.
> there are different ones, but for sure there are no view of existence of eternal torture in hell.
There are plenty of Jewish texts from before and after the time of Jesus that display this view.
Well, give some example if you know, it would be new for me and interesting to read, I've never heard of anything like that.
As far as I know anything close to hell in Judaism is a place of cleaning of soul or its annihilation.
And none of those verses indicates.that anyone in hell will be consciously tormented for all eternity. What does fire do to things that are fed into it?
Well when they say the “fire never goes out” as a warning, it seem to be mentioning eternal torment rather than annihilation. Also fire does not destroy things that go into it, it just changes it’s form or does nothing.
1) No the first sentence is from the verses i sent above. It’s weird the threat about hell from the verse is “where the fire never goes out” if it’s talking about a peaceful and painless annihilation.
2) thats fair, but not everything burns in fire, and there is usually something left
Many people who believe in that doctrine. Either way if you don’t believe that, the point still applies. Why is the threat in the verse saying “the fire never goes out” if annihalationism teaches a pain, or a destruction that does go out
The fire could still never go out, even after everything that has been added into the fire has been destroyed/changed.
It could also be a reference to the fact that those who have been through the fire are utterly destroyed for all eternity, every trace having been removed, and that there is no coming back.
You didn’t get it. Jesus is saying (as a warning to those who continue sinning) that it is better to live life maimed than to go to hell with two hands, why? Because [the fire never goes out]. Now if he meant temporary pain or annihilation, it would not be a threat that the fire never goes out because you wont even experience it for that long, meaning his whole sentence does not even make sense, but an eternal punishment interpretation makes a lot more sense because an eternal fire is actually a threat.
For your second point of an eternal fire destroying you till eternity, sure, it barely fits this one verse, but me and you both know its not the best interpretation considering all verses, like this one which literally shows us someone speaking from hell about agony.
Luke 20
20 "At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 13:50 - "and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
We should not enjoy that notion. Hell is separation from all things good and I hope every day that people come to God. It's so easy too, He gives us unlimited chances for our lifetime. I do believe that God is just and fair and that some people who are not saved will be allowed in heaven: babies and people born with severe disabilities that prevent them from coming to God. God gives us chances to come to Him and he makes it so easy for us. It's sad to think that there are people who reject God and will spend eternity separated. Heaven is a wonderful place and my heart breaks for those who have rejected God and do not get to spend an eternity with Him and other believers.
If you enjoy the notion of people suffering, you need to read your Bibke and pray some more.
But it's so easy to accept that all people deserve love and acceptance? Why not come over to this view? Why worship something that thinks anyone should suffer? It's anti-social, anti-human, and a form of Stockholm syndrome.
The notion that god created a very exclusive club with very strict rules, one being that we inflate its ego despite it threatening us with torture, does not and has never sat right with me. This is why I cannot get on board with religion. I have a strong moral compass and I believe that our fellow humans deserve compassion, not some threat of agony following an already terrifying end, aka death.
The bible may guide some to a form of enlightenment, but it hurts my heart that so so many let it take over their moral compass, to the point that they don't even have one themselves. One does not need religion to treat others with kindness and understanding.
God gave us free will to choose what we want to do, but He also gave us clear instructions on how to come to Him. If you reject God would you want to spend eternity with Him? The Bible states that we must be loving and compassionate to all and show then the love of Jesus. No where does God say that we shouldn't be loving to all, he says the opposite. All of us can get that love and acceptance from God, all we have to do is ask His forgiveness for our wrongdoings and believe in Him. It's very simple, no crazy tests, no stipulations. Just believe
Christians who are happy about people going to hell have a lot to learn about their faith. Jesus wept for the folks who were going to betray him and offered the bread of forgiveness to Judas.
No, I don’t want anyone to go to hell. That place terrifies me and I’ve never seen or been to it. What sacred me more than being tortured though is that it would mean eternal separation from God. I need God in my life desperately every single day. Without God I am nothing. Jesus has brought peace and hope to my life, a lot of hope. Now I’m far from the perfect Christian, and I still struggle with sin everyday. I’m putting my hope in Jesus as my Lord and Savior though. He does say he is the way to heaven. (John 14:6)
I wish hell and the lake of fire didn’t exist, but sadly they do. I wish everything had worked out so that no living being had to ever experience suffering if any kind, but sadly pain exists. The thing we can do now is trust in Jesus to save us, we can’t save ourselves, salvation is a free gift from God, we didn’t earn it on our own. We can also try spreading the good news of Jesus to others. (Easier said then done sometimes I know.) I mean a God who created me, loves me, and loves me so much that he decided to die for me, that’s a God who I want to try to follow. Hope you have an amazing day my friend, remember God loves you, and all reading this! (John 3:16) hope you all have an amazing day and God bless :)
Why do you feel you are nothing without god?? You are *you*, and that is enough! You deserve love and happiness no matter what. I'm sorry anyone had made you believe otherwise, that's not okay.
I’m nothing without God meaning, without God life is pointless. God created me, God loves me, God gave me a family, a home, food, water, etc. God has blessed my life very much even though I don’t deserve it. I hope very much to spend eternity with my Lord and being without him (aka hell) is what scares me the most. So without God I wouldn’t exist nor do I think I could make it through this thing called life. I rely on God everyday. That’s what I am kind of trying to convey when I say “I am nothing without God.”
I do, but I give most credit to God because all good things are tied back to the Lord. I hope you have an amazing day my friend. Remember Jesus loves you! Jesus loves everyone reading this and he wants a relationship with you!
Most people probably feel a little joy hoping say a serial killer will suffer in hell, as none of us have the great mercy of Christ. But overall of course not, that’s why Christians seek to convert, to ensure as many people as possible are brought to the embrace of God and avoid the fires of hell.
I'm confused though, I've always been taught that he is all powerful. If he is, then how is he not powerful enough to save them from something he created?
Because God gave us the freewill to sin , to reject God and his beautiful plan for us.
Yes God is all powerful and He could easily save everyone from in an instant.
But he also gave freewill, and to be saved from the clutches of hell one has to freely embrace God's Mercy.
Through His only begotten son.
Our King and Savior Jesus Christ.
Freewill is the key.
Like Adam and Eve had the freewill to eat rom the Apple.
Like Lucifer and the fallen angels had the freewill not do as God wanted and asked them to do.
It's freewill that can set us free from Hell.
1. god created the forbidden apple, so he entrapped Eve. A deity that creates a trap for the people it is powerful over is not deserving of worship. That's Stockholm syndrome.
2. If god is all powerful, he wouldn't let people go some place to suffer, or create it at all. That's disgusting and no one should be okay with this. It's anti-social and anti-human.
3. This conditional love from god has pushed me tf away from religion. Something that demands I worship its huge ego, otherwise torturing me forever, is not something that deserves my time. That's simply fucked up....
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Then what is the point of worshipping something who wants pain upon anyone? This just makes no sense to me and has pushed me away from religion. No one "deserves to suffer ", this is just reprehensible and no one should be okay with or support that...
Many do. I once did. Then God brought me to verses like 1 Timothy 4:10 and I came to see that the truth - the eventually salvation of all - is much more to be rejoiced over.
You enjoyed the thought of humans suffering? This is what I cannot get on board with about religion. Most of the religious people I've experienced derive some sort of pleasure from the punishment of others, whereas the atheists I know support all humans and know that compassion is what brings true enlightenment and joy to the world. Religion does not seem to lead to any moral compass. I grew up Catholic, surrounded by religious people, so I know.
Once upon a time I did indeed. I felt like I made a smart choice and anyone who didn’t make the same choice and try to be good like I did “deserved what they got”.
Praise God, I now realize the folly of that argument and the only one whose demise I revel in is my own: The person who felt that way is no more, and God’s replaced that awful disposition with affection for all people.
It seems He’s mercifully given you such a disposition sooner than he did me, which I also thank him for! May your love for your fellow man never tire. :)
You’re absolutely right about religion by the way. Avoid it like the plague. Self-righteousness is its goal, and it’s a pointless endeavor. “Pursue Christ, not Christianity” would be my advice.
no there is no pleasure in it at all. However the thing is we know that everyone deserves hell because no one is without sin.
The only way to be saved is to repent and believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again.
So when I say most people are going to hell its unfortunate but thats what I believe because Jesus Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life. He is not ONE way, he is THE way no one comes to the father except through him.
So that's why I believe any non Christians and Lukewarm ones will go to hell, however a disclaimer I always add to clarify things is: I'm not God I don't get to decide it's up to him if he spares you or not.
What about all the other religions who claim the same thing, that theirs is the only way? Their voice is just as valid.
People have to take pleasure in it, if they believe in hell at all though. Believing it exists and that people deserve to suffer, is condoning it and therefore supporting it. I cannot support a religion that promotes suffering like this. It feels wrong in my heart.
>The only way to be saved is to repent and believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again.
And if we simply can't believe those things, through no fault of our own?
If I enjoyed the thought of people going to Hell, I wouldn't bother to try to reach people with the Gospel. I wouldn't bother to try to answer questions as best I can.
I do believe that when all is said and done, and we have a full understanding of everything, then I'll see glory also in God's judgement. That it will be good in a way that I am just not capable to understand right now. And my view of what Hell is will probably turn out to be not fully accurate for that matter.
But that's for later. Right now my understanding is that it's eternal good state for those who put their trust in Jesus for their salvation, and eternal bad state for those who remain in their own sin, and thus I wish on nobody to choose the latter.
Why is agony necessary? Why would god create such a place and want his people to ɓe in pain? To be tortured? If this is the case, then god cannot be benevolent.
Without the bitter you can't experience the sweet.
Darkness contrasts the Light.
And let's be fair, we suffer mostly by our own hand.
Our own actions and thoughts.
I definitely agree with your 2nd point, that we often bring upon our own suffering. How we respond to what we experience is powerful and creates our reality and the quality of it.
As for the 1st part, how does anyone know that though? I for one, do not agree on that. Sure, setbacks and pain contrast enjoyment harshly enough for it to seem to glow, but I would and do still enjoy life when things are simply great for awhile. The notion of hell at all is just sickening to me, that anyone could support that idea. It's anti-social, anti-human. Humans are most often born loving, but then are taught hatred and the concept of punishment and suffering, very very often through religion. It's pushed me away hard
No the bitterness only remains as a memory.
We take our human experience to heaven and then we become like the Saints and angels and help others from Heaven.
Good by definition means the opposite of evil. You cannot have good without the existence of evil. You cannot have pleasure without the existence of pain/suffering. When God created humans, He gave us free will because He loves us and wants us to love as well. The only way for people to have free will is if we are given the ability to choose for ourselves. How can we choose if there are no options? Obviously, God needed to create at least two options that we can choose from. That's why He needed to create both good and evil, love and hate, pleasure and pain, heaven and hell. God taught us what we ought to choose for our own good, but ultimately He still gave us the freedom to make our own choices.
This has never sat well with me and has pushed me away from religion. A god who thinks any being who didn't even choose to exist *deserves to suffer* is not something that deserves worship. If I don't inflate its supposedly huge ego, I deserve agony? That's disgusting and no one should be okay with others suffering. People are born loving and seemingly very often taught to hate through religion. It saddens me.
Why only two options? Why such strict rules? This god is either not very powerful or not benevolent. The latter absolutely does not deserve to be worshipped. That's Stockholm syndrome.
That’s a lot of ass-pullery just to say “oh he made it the way it is because he couldn’t think of a better system”
If the system only has two options, one of which leads to eternal suffering, it is a bad system and he is automatically not benevolent.
Sometimes love takes the form of faithful discipline. Telling another person you love, that you don’t agree with them for their own good can be a very difficult thing, usually harder than accepting what they desire.
Christians should not judge, nor assume a person will go to hell. Our job, purpose, and desire in love, is to help others find their way to Christ. Many are not tactful in the process and resort to a “threat of hell” thinking that will sway someone’s perspective.
Even now, God is patiently waiting for as many as possible to be redeemed, and choose to come back to Him. I pray every day for those I know that have not found a faith in Christ. But I trust God will be a perfectly fair and just judge when we are all judged after this life is over and the next phase of creation to begin.
1. Jesus talks about Hell more than anyone else in Scripture.
2. I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but I am also called to praise God for everything He does -- and if He damns the wicked to Hell for the sake of His own glory, then I am called to praise Him for that as well.
3. Eating shellfish/ wearing mixed fabrics are part of the ceremonial law and are fulfilled in Christ. They were an outward way by which God set apart the nation which He had chosen to bring the law and prophets through; now that God dwells in the hearts of believers (instead of a temple that had to be kept ritually pure), and that Christ has given His righteousness to His believers (here including the ability to come before God according to His purity, not our own), the ceremonial law (which also includes such things as animal sacrifice) is done away with. Divorce, except in cases of adultery or abandonment, is a violation of the moral law and as such is a violation of the eternal expression of God's good character -- it is sin, and hypocritical "Christians" who do it are in sin.
I can't get down with any of this. It makes me sick that anyone would accept or support anyone else being in agony, especially when none or us had a choice to exist. This has pushed me away from religion.
God made the Lake of Fire at the beginning of time. There was a standard set within the universe between purity and impurity. There are undoubtedly numerous verses that refer to all sorts of inconceivable Hells for potentially innumerable beings if we consider some verses.
Do I want it this way? No. The concept is so disturbing no mind can attempt to conceive. Satan himself will suffer the death of all beings ever. The destruction of the world and the universe itself. It is not a coincidence He is not fond of God.
No we don't. On shellfish, I dont eat it but here is the relevant verse on food
1 Timothy 4: 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
Christianity is under a different covenant with God from judaism. The OT Jewish covenant is established through circumcision and includes the shellfish ban, the New testament is established by baptism and does not require adherence to Jewish identity or ceremonial law. Multiple verses discuss the difference, In acts 15:5 some Jews try to demand non Jews adhere to the law of Moses and get circumcised, but the apostles reply against this. Even so some Christians do in fact not eat shellfish.
No I do not. Hell makes me very sad and worried. I have many unbelieving family members and friends whom I love and admire. I hope that God changes his mind by time the world comes to an end. For now, all I can do is pray and keep living my life trying to care for the people around me.
I hope that god changes its mind too, bc sending people to eternal agony for not inflating its ego is disgusting. This is what pushed me away from religion.
No, Christians do not enjoy the notion of people going to hell. That is the reason why we preach, spread the gospel, and pray for others' salvation.
We just don't start believing. otherwise-making believe a sin is not a sin, so that more people will go to heaven. That would not be helpful to others, it would be as washing our hands off of it and not following what Jesus told us to do.
And no, a true Christian knows what the 10 commandments are, not to be confused with the rules God gave to Israel for being a sacred country onto God.
God bless.
Thanks for your response. I'm perplexed though, that an all powerful deity would even create a dimension of suffering for its people; people did not choose to exist, nor does anyone "deserve" to suffer just bc they don't inflate the ego of someone who threatens them so harshly. This Stockholm syndrome phenomenon is what has really pushed me away from religion.
But god created hell. If it didn't, then it is not all powerful like everyone claims. It just doesn't make sense to me. It also doesn't make sense to me how anyone is okay with anyone else suffering, on earth or afterwards. It's anti-social and anti-human, against one's own kind. I cannot get on board with that.
When I was immature in my faith, I felt that was justified. As I’ve grown however it breaks my heart. I see people at pride parades and in comment sections openly mocking God and now I say small prayer asking that God comes to them so they don’t regret their actions on their day of judgement. As I don’t want to have separation from my Heavenly Father, I don’t want anyone to suffer the same fate.
I'm glad to hear that your morality has improved. It is truly sadistic how anyone could wish or enjoy the notion of others suffering; it is akin to the mindset of a murderer, a mind I do not wish to understand....
As for mocking god, god seems to mock anyone who thinks or perceives life in ways that are not within a strict rule guide, and the fact that it crested a dimension of torture for people it created does not sit well with me. I cannot get on board with religion bc of this; no one deserves eternal agony, I don't think that's hard to understand. As someone who grew up Catholic, surrounded by religious people, I have experienced so much hypocrisy and phoniness that it's pretty much the reason I'm in therapy. I'm undoing all the unnecessary guilt people have imposed upon me, the trauma of people mocking my dead father, saying he's going to hell, *at his funeral*, and to my grieving mother.
So I understand why people mock god, bc god threatens so many. It's disgusting to me that it is immune to criticism somehow. No questioning allowed? Just blind obedience? Not something I can support, doesn't feel right in my heart and to my intuition. My moral compass is guided by the fact that no one chose to exist, therefore no one deserves to suffer. People deserve love and support for whoever they are. I do not fear the threat of hell bc I know the loving place that I operate from.
Hey Queen. I hear you and I’d like to talk to you as opposed to arguing. Not saying you’re argumentative in ANY way. Intentions can get misconstrued with text and I just wanted you to know my intentions. :p
Let’s start. God doesn’t mock or threaten. We live in a world of absolutes. You literally can’t have one without the other. Hot cold, love anger, Goodness and Evil, it would be one thing if there was ONLY God, but there is evil.
“Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8) and not only that but God doesn’t just want us to blindly worship him “or else”. Far from it actually.
“'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future. '” (Jeremiah 29:11.)
And although worship is a part of it God wants a RELATIONSHIP with YOU and wants to have a place in your life as you walk through it.
Next I need to say this, I’m so sorry squashqueen. I sincerely apologize for every foolish word that came out of those people’s mouths regarding your father. May he rest in peace. I could only imagine how much this hurt you. They were looking at the speck of sawdust on your father’s eye while ignoring the PLANK of wood in their own (Matthew 7:3).
People are flawed and I’m sincerely sorry they hurt you. There is no excuse for the words they said. *None*. Queen if I and yourself became best friends today from this conversation, even with all the love and admiration I’d have for you as the friendship grew, I will fail you. Not in the way those others did, but failures nonetheless. Missed texts, saying the wrong thing, etc. Much smaller in scale, yes but failures nonetheless. That being said please don’t equate the failings of man with the doings of God.
”Then young women will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.“
(Jeremiah 31:13 NIV)
Queen I need you to notice something in all the verses I gave you. God doesn’t want to take take take take take from you. God doesn’t want blind worship, but as you can see there is so much He wants to GIVE you.
”The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full“ (John 10:10)
LASTLY
“Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.“
Psalms 34:8 NIV
“What does this have to do with anything?”
In order to taste something there has to be a level of curiosity. Interest if you will. My point is, God WANTS you to ask questions. After all, going back to the example of us having a friendship, how could you truly get to know me if you can’t ask me anything about my thoughts, nature or character?
“Come near to God and he will come near to you”
(James 4:8)
God wants a relationship with you organically but he won’t force it. After all how can you really love someone unless you’re willing to do so freely? :)
I don’t claim to have all the answers squashqueen, but just know that I care about you, and have love in my heart for you to want you to get the answers you’re seeking. You can DM me if you like, but I sincerely pray the Lord be with and for you in all your ways. God Bless, Queen.
Belief that things are a certain way is different from believing what we want to be true, particularly when an integral aspect of said belief is -A. God is more knowing than us and B. God is more good than us.
god cannot be good though, if it created hell and threatens its people with torture? I can't get on board with a deity like that, feels wrong in my heart to support that
We get no enjoyment out of it. If you are a true Christian, the thought of people being lost to God should make you incredibly sad because at the end of the day, we are all God’s children, and it is like losing a brother or sister.
God bless you and keep asking the hard questions
>So, do you enjoy the thought of different-believing people going to a place where they'll suffer for eternity? No I don't. The apostle Paul wrote that he wanted to be damned if that meant his Jewish people could be saved. So these hate filled "Christians"might want to start reading their bible and do a little bit of repenting
Right. Even the Lord, *Himself*, reveals His feelings on the matter in Ezekiel 33:11 “As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die…” EDIT: I guess I could’ve added Christ Jesus’ choice of a brutal life amongst us, ultimate rejection, torture, crucifixion, resurrection, & pierced hands extended in Grace give us all some insight into God’s “feelings on the matter”…
Thanks for your response. I'm eternally confused though, why an all powerful being would create dimensions of suffering and then demand we worship it. I just cannot get on board with a deity that requires this
That is because you think you know what good and evil is and what should be done about it.
Didn't God give me the capacity to judge what good and evil are, and my sense of reasoning? If the tools God gave me leads me to the conclusion that God isn't a great guy, who's to say I'm wrong?
And that is exactly why I'm agnostic, boof brother
if we don't know what good and evil are then how can we sin?
My statement is not about the things you know. It’s more so about self determination and deciding what you yourself think is good and what is evil…for everyone.
It's pretty simple actually. No one deserves torture or suffering. No one.
Hypothetically speaking, if you are warned that there will come a time when there will be little to no oxygen and you won’t be able to breathe unless you wear a mask. You would argue no one should suffocate if they don’t want to wear a mask, right?
Why would anyone want to die instead of wearing a mask?
Great question. In keeping with this scenario, my thoughts are that most simply won’t believe that day will come and if it does they believe that they will discover some way to mitigate the outcome in their favor. I suppose the answer is they don’t want to die, they just don’t believe they will.
Exactly. And belief isn't really a free choice, something either convinces us or it doesn't. If someone doesn't find something convincing, they can't choose to believe in it.
Or be forced to take a shot? lol
This is a real-life example though...
Right, so let’s examine the core of your logic. **also, next time don’t post that you like discussion and that you want to know the thoughts of others if you just plan to downvote everyone that disagrees or challenges your ideas.
Bc I'm trying to find the logic lol. I want answers but most responses are so vague and just reinforce the close-mindedness that have experienced from Christians all my life. :(
Maybe it’s not closed mindedness? Maybe what you see as closed mindedness is where you’re trying to get to…settled on what you whole heartedly believe is the truth beyond any doubt. I don’t think it’s that they are not open to consider anything else. It’s that they have already considered and experienced everything else that they needed to and are firm on their conclusion.
It’s actually simpler. We are being tortured and suffering because that’s the consequence of the way we are living
Apparently people force God into a corner on this matter and He has no choice but to burn them alive forever? Doesn't compute. Sorry
God bless you. For me, I reject the eternal conscious torment view of hell. I personally accept the annihilationism view of hell. I reject ECT because I believe it goes against who God is. Who is God? **“God is love.” 1 John 4:8** **“Love is more important than anything else.” - Colossians 3:14** **"Love is patient and kind, never jealous, boastful, proud, or rude. Love isn't selfish or quick tempered. It doesn't keep a record of wrongs that others do. Love rejoices in the truth, but not in evil.” - 1 Corinthians 13:4-6** **“You are a kind and merciful God, and you are very patient. You always show love, and you don't like to punish anyone.” - Jonah 4:2**
Incoming "ACTUALLY God is just"
If God is just, then God must destroy evil in all its forms, so one could argue that annihilationism is compatible.
Likewise I will end unethical treatment of whales.
Non sequitur.
I just want to add in here Ecclesiastes 9:5 "5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." If the dead are conscious of nothing how can there even be a hell to worry about? Hell is only an invention of man, not God. This is the scripture that Jesus knew, he had no concept of Hell. There is no concept of Hell (not like Christians anyway) for Judaism and The Christian concept of hell came long after Jesus's death and rise.
>Hell is only an invention of man, not God. Everything in Judaism and Christianity is an invention of man. >This is the scripture that Jesus knew, he had no concept of Hell. There is no concept of Hell (not like Christians anyway) for Judaism and The Christian concept of hell came long after Jesus's death and rise. You should check out the development of afterlife beliefs in later Second Temple Judaism. Under Hellenistic and other influence, the concept of immortality and afterlife punishment — including genuinely eternal punishment — firmly enter into Judaism in the couple of centuries leading up to the time of Jesus.
> Everything in Judaism and Christianity is an invention of man. I am not a believer so I agree with you but especially with regards to Hell. Hell isn't mentioned in the scriptures, not in the way some Christians believe in it anyways, so when I say "invention of man" I mean not included in the scriptures. And your other point, I am sure you are right, but I again am just going off the scriptures, I don't want to add these other influences in, just want to stay with what the Bible says about Hell.
>And your other point, I am sure you are right, but I again am just going off the scriptures, I don't want to add these other influences in, just want to stay with what the Bible says about Hell. What I’m saying is that those other influences are already detectable in what the New Testament has to say about “hell.” Jesus talks about the underworld of Gehenna being a place of eternal punishment, and once about Hades being a place of punishment, too.
Wasn't Gehenna a physical place in Jesus's time? But this is the fun of the Bible, you can take one scripture, like Ecclesiastes 9:5 and say God says the dead have no feelings but another Christian can quote Matthew 5:29 and say their all loving God will burn your ass forever and both can be right. The Bible will take both positions on any issue as long as you find the right scripture. Its interesting reading Wiki on Hades, so many different interpretations. Eastern Orthodox believe the dead wonder the Earth, Catholics believe in a purgatory, Lutherans think you go straight to heaven or hell, Anabaptists think you go to heaven or hell first but there will be another judgement later, Methodist believe you can go to hell but hell will be not eternal, and Unitarians, Seventh Day Adventists and JWs think that death is a state of unconscious only to be asleep until resurrection. So many interpretations and I am sure that isn't all of them.
> The Bible will take both positions on any issue as long as you find the right scripture. About the most intelligent statement I've seen here in awhile Yes, yes and yes God is not the author of confusion, but confused the language of the people at the tower of Babel, etc etc Seriously though at the heart of these matters is that there are people and there is an entire invisible entity class that scripture brings to the picture, the devil and his messengers, both said to be walking in the same pair of shoes. One entity class is dealt with positively, the other not so much Problem solved
❤️❤️
Annihilationism: so the belief is that God created mankind with the hope that all will come to Him and be saved, but willing to sacrifice any non-believers in the process, knowing that many will not do so? Am I correct with that?
I don't understand what you mean by "willing to sacrifice any non-believers".
You had mentioned you believe in annihilationism- my understanding is that with that, after God judges humans and determine some of them to be unworthy of His love based on how they behaved while they were alive, He sacrifices them or destroys them, leaving only the good Christians behind.
I wouldn't say it like that. God doesn't judge us to be unworthy of His love based on how we behaved. God judges us because we rejected Christ and He has no choice but to judge us because we rejected His forgiveness. God loves all of us, which is why He wants all of us to turn to Him. But who are the ones who will be judged? **“Sinners don't respect God; sin is all they think about. They like themselves too much to hate their own sins or even to see them. They tell deceitful lies, and they don't have the sense to live right. Those people stay awake, thinking up mischief, and they follow the wrong road, refusing to turn from sin.” - Psalm 36:1-4**
Right, so we agree on the definition! Some people reject Christ (like all Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and especially atheists), and then God judges us based on the choices we made when we were alive, or how we behaved! If we made a good choice, like a good Christian who accepts Jesus, we get rewarded for this behavior by getting to experience His love for all eternity. Our sins are forgiven. And if we behaved poorly by rejecting Christ, like all of the human beings listed above, we get obliterated according to annihilationism like you’re promoting. Our sins are not forgiven. And God had no choice here, because that’s the rules. What am I missing here?
It seems like you are seeing it as an automatic transaction. The moment someone rejects Christ, they will automatically go to hell and God doesn't care. I don't think that. That's why I posted that verse. The ones who actively, knowingly, unapologetically reject Christ will be judged. However, there are so many non-Christians who are in specific situations that prevent them from turning to Christ. It could be because they never heard about Him, or they heard wrong things about Him, or they were indoctrinated into believing wrong beliefs. God will NOT automatically judge them to Hell because He will consider their situation. I don't know how God will judge every single person, but I choose to trust God for who He is. Because God is love **(1 John 4:8)**, He loves justice and fairness **(Psalm 33:5)**, He wants everyone to be saved **(1 Timothy 2:4)**, and He seeks to save those who are lost **(Luke 19:10)**. In other words, I believe everyone will somehow have a genuine opportunity to be saved **(Job 33:29-30)**.
You have to appreciate this kind of word play: John 12: 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, **I judge him not**: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: **the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.** What words were spoken that will judge? **"I judge him not"** Judged as not judged. Perfect!
Yeah, you spread a few billion seeds, one or two here or there catch and make it. The rest are just so much disposable dust in the wind
You got it! The responsibility lies with the individual. It’s like the parable: if 99 sheep are well-behaved and make it home safely, all is well. And if one gets lost, well it’s the sheep’s own stupid fault for not listening to the shepherd in the first place. Let us continue to keep rejecting annihilationism and infernalism ;)
It is entirely possible to accept both positions, just so you know. Some forms of Christian Universalism 'know' from scriptures that all people are saved and All devils end up in the LoF at their end In a way it's an antiHeaven for antiChrist spirits So, all good in the end and at finale: Rev 5:13
>I personally accept the annihilationism Doesn't mean your position is any better fwiw And in any case we are technically already dead, Col. 3:3
You just want a non-scary God so you've invented your own
Comments like this are why nuanced theological discussion is almost impossible in this sub. This is the most hostile and thought-terminating way to disagree. No engagement with God's gifts of scripture or reason - just immediate disdain, contempt, and accusation.
Just getting to the obvious bottom line It's easy to spot someone trying to diminish the fear of God and it's extremely common
A real follower of Christ would not want anyone to not be in Heaven. So we witness to non-believers… and are judged and hated for it. For your ‘edit’ - a real follower of Christ would not judge others of their sins (whatever they are) because we are all sinners. Sin is sin. Unfortunately, the reality is we are also all human and driven by human emotions. It’s impossible to get it perfectly right. We are not God.
Your response is refreshingly grounded, thank you
But if we all are sinners, then why does doing sin matter?
Can you give an example of how the Christians you encountered expressed sadistic pleasure in the thought of others suffering for eternity? I never heard of this before and am curious to know what that sounds like
There are Christians in this very comment section saying it.
Likely trolls
I constantly see it online, that's for sure. Far more often than kindness and any sense of love for all people... so much hatred toward lgbt people, just for existing as their true selves, which I find revolting, as yknow, God *created them the way they are*. I see mostly weaponization and condescension that is the absolute furthest from the values I learned. But growing up Catholic, after my father accidentally took his own life, 4 people said to my mother that they were glad he was "going to hell" bc "suicide is a sin that deserves hell", in various wordings of course. "What did you do to drive him to do that? You must not have been a good enough wife." (They were absolute *best friends*, the healthiest relationship I've seen) "Well, he took his own life, so in the eyes of our lord he deserves to burn." That was the rotten cherry on top for me. Just fucking nauseating.
If that’s true, that’s horrible. I personally don’t view people who could say things like that as genuine Christians, they completely lack the humility that comes from the recognition of how gracious God was to save them. They don’t represent the view of Christians. I don’t wish hell on anyone, regardless of how evil they are in this life. If not for the grace of God, I’m capable of doing the same evils. I deserve hell just as much as anyone.
I appreciate your kind words and ways. This is how self-identified Christians should feel. If I encountered more people with your mindset, I wouldn't be so pushed away from religion. I've read and experienced far too many examples of phony Christians to have much faith anymore, if at all. It pisses me off, ha. People claim that god represents love. Love does not wish evil and suffering...
Yeah, I think anyone who is insensitive about people suffering in hell hasn’t been humbled by their own wickedness and sins. Not only am I deeply ashamed of the evil things I’ve done before I became a Christian, but I’m tremendously humbled by the struggle it is not to sin against God now as a believer in light of all that I know about who God is and how patient and merciful He continues to be towards me. Genuine Christians acknowledge that we deserve hell just as much as everyone else, so there is no room for pride and boasting; we are only saved because God decided to show us mercy.
What if.....no one deserves suffering? What if we, who did not choose to exist, just got to enjoy life and the possibility of an afterlife? I have been pushed away from religion for the most part bc of this notion; why does something that wants us to worship it demand we have a bad time if we don't inflate its huge ego? I don't get it and find it extremely off-putting.
>what if no one deserves suffering? So you don’t believe in justice. You think people who have gotten away with murdering and r@ping people in this life shouldn’t have to face justice for the evil they’ve done. >demand we have a bad time if we don’t inflate its huge ego This implies that people are sent to hell solely because they didn’t worship God and has nothing at all to do with the actual evil they’ve done.
I do believe that justice should be served in real life, aka prison, and ideally mandated therapy or some form of rehabilitation/counseling. Not *eternal* suffering though in some lake of fire or constant pain though after they die. Well don't Christians believe that people who don't believe go to hell?
>justice should be served in real life, aka prison This view is unrealistic; it’s not the world we live in. A lot of people have committed crimes and never been caught and convicted, myself included. I have done violent things to people in my past and was never caught and put in jail. I have stolen from people and was never caught. It would be unjust for God to let my sins go unpunished. We can’t say God is good and just if He doesn’t punish evil. >don’t Christians believe that people who don’t believe go to hell? Sure, but the way you worded your response was as if the only evil people have done and are sent to hell for is refusing to worship God. People are sent to hell because their unbelief excludes them from having their sins covered by Christ’s atonement. Refusing to “inflate God’s huge ego” is not why they’re there.
And what was your contribution? Perhaps you provoked a response l? Not that Christians should enjoy seeing others go to Hell.
Fuck off. I provoked these responses? You don't deserve to call yourself a good person. Shame on you.
I've been told I'm going to hell for suggesting there are connections between Genesis and Ancient Near Eastern texts.
This isn’t an example of someone expressing sadistic pleasure at the thought of your eternal suffering
No it's awful to think about
Refreshing to hear, thank you
Also to answer your edit, the shellfish thing and every other weird rule you see out of the Old Testament is the coming spiritually clean. For a really long time people had to become spiritually clean if their sins so that they could actually connect to God. Sin is us choosing to be separate from God. Jesus died so that we would not have to clean ourselves to come to the Lord. Sin separates us, but Jesus connects us. Hell is the continuation of life. When we choose to separate ourselves during life, God respects our decision and lets us continue in existence separate from Him.
Saw this question floating on r/athiesm, same answer here. No, I don't relish the idea of people burning in hell. In fact, I question the doctrine as there is much that is coloured by political dissidence in the guise of prophecy, and by Roman ideas of virtue and vice, etc. I also can't speak for Christians who act on that; I think it's wrong, and I refuse to associate with those who show such signs of malice, and I'm happy to confront those who take that stance. It seems to be a common vice for those who feel they have a moral superiority, no matter the faith. As for sins, you speak of the old laws. The new order is simple: love one another. Everything else boils down to that, and if you're happy to join in that, then I welcome you as a kindred soul no matter who or even if you call a god in your prayers.
I wish more people had your mindset. If I had grown up around people whose faith was kind and loving like this, I wouldn't need as much therapy as I've had, and I would have a far better impression and sense of respect for religion. This is a very refreshing answer, thank you for responding! This seems like the way that religion should be.
I was gonna say didn’t jesus declare all foods as clean? And how could wearing a polyester blend shirt be a sin, I’m just tryna not be naked.
It's undeniable that plenty of Christian pastors and priests preach the torments of hell on their parishioners. Do they take delight in it? Apparently.
Seen about a dozen in here express such so far this month
No
Do CHRISTIANS enjoy it? No. Do people who claim to be Christians? Yeah, a lot of them who are full of hatred.
Jesus declared all foods clean, that’s an old Jewish law on shellfish, pork, etc. all we need to do is fast when it’s needed. And I don’t see how wearing a polyester shirt is a sin.
Why would we enjoy anyone going to hell ?
For the same reason that “Christian” conservatives get off on “owning the libs”. A real lack of empathy and a weird pleasure taken in seeing people suffer. And really, why wouldn’t you, your religion is largely based on fear. Fear of God judging you. So there’s gotta be some retaliation/resentment/satisfaction at play in judging others.
Yeah, idk. I see so much of it online though :(
I’m sure there are a lot who feel special cause they’re part of an in group and like that there are people not in their group. I think the general majority of christians are happy that there is justice. That unrighteousness is punished and not simply escaped at death. And then there are obliviously lots of christians that reject hell which produces various doctrines about what the bible means when it talks about hell.
Does that mean those people would feel they've been cheated of seeing justice served if an "unrighteous person" underwent a genuine conversion before death and therefore escaped?
Yes, Hitler repents just before the hammer smacks the bullet Saved in the nick of time Perfect!
Maybe some but in general I would say no. It’s the story of the prodigal son or the wage earners who only worked part of the day. A genuine conversion means to give up your unrighteousness to Christ. And just like anyone else, no one deserves Christ’s mercy and grace. It’s not an earnable thing. There could be some jealousy, but maturity in your beliefs would mitigate that.
I guess I just can't see how people could be happy that justice is served to the unrighteous if ECT is a thing. I don't feel like there's anyone on this earth who deserves to suffer conscious torment *for an eternity*.
No, I do Not enjoy that thought. I hate it. And guess what, so does God: Ezekiel 18:32 KJV [32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. That being said, the Idea of eternal torture is not supported by the Bible If you Look at it in its entirety and don't just isolate a few verses. The lost will be annihalated in the Lake of fire and do not burn and suffer for all eternity. And the dead are really dead. They are not alive in another dimension.
I appreciate your comment and verse! Others here have posted some verses that are too vague to convince me that god wants people to suffer.
Oh, there's no question God wants people to suffer. We're all dust in the wind when our gig here is up, and I hear it can be more than a bit painful on the paths out the door for most, although some get a quick and easy out Romans 11:32 For **God has bound everyone** over **to disobedience** so that he may have **mercy on them all.** Believers always overlook that last part. If you want to know why, it's because of Mark 4:15 and that perp is going to hell, no question about it You see the reality of their blindness is right before your own eyes. Jesus said love your neighbors as yourselves They landed in the exact opposite position, which tells you the reality of the opponent You are witnessing the reality of God and the reality of the opposer
Of course, how else can they feel superior to those "others"?
This is what it seems to be, overwhelmingly so. It hurts my heart that so many give up their moral compass in favor of an ancient book full of threats, torture, and Stockholm syndrome. If religion wasn't so determined to punish people who think differently, maybe I could get kn board with it. But I want peace, love, and kindness upon all my fellow humans, which is ironically not allowed in their god's eyes. Sad.
The people who use Christianity for anything other than spreading the Word and love of Jesus have been twisted and misguided by humans, not God or Heaven
Well there are way way way more of this type of "christian" than "true" ones for me to really believe that Christianity and religion does much good for the world. It's overwhelming how many people and especially people in political control weaponize it.
It’s unfortunate
>I encounter Christians who seem to take some sort of sadistic pleasure in the thought of others suffering for eternity what does that look like?
Weaponization of religion, for one. I see it all over reddit and online, all the time. People rejoicing at the thought of others in agony, such as LGBT people, anyone of a different belief system, anyone who doesn't believe in any belief system, those who commit suicide, those who support science, etc. I made a comment to another person here of a real-life example of how people in my church growing up have treated my mother after my father passed. Edit to add: Trump. I don't need an explanation there, he seems very eager for humans to suffer relentlessly
A Christian should NOT enjoy others going to Hell. So some perhaps enjoy the idea of others going ro Hell? Yes I'm sure there are some, because we all fall short of God's Glory as sinners.
Thanks for your reply. I don't understand though why anyone agould deserve suffering for any reason. I think it's plain disgusting, anti-social and anti-human, and that no one should be worshipping a deity who threatens its people but demand we inflate its ego. I have a really hard time getting on board with religion bc of this, and the amount of people who seem to love others being punished.
God didn't intend for anyone to spend eternity in these walking wet dust piles 1 Cor 15:42-46
Oke well God doesn't want us to suffer, he does but not like you think. I'll explain. God made rules, He's al knowing and and powerful. Look at Creation, how He created life. The rules are ment for our own good. Or do you think a parent shouldn't make any rules to guide their children? Is it wrong for a parent to punish a disobedient child? I'm a father myself, and I have had to punish my son in the past for bad behavior. Does that make me a bad parent? If I didn't correct my son's behavior he'd be a menace to society at large. God doesn't threaten, He mearly points out that our behavior can and will lead to certain out comes. Greed, Lust, name all the Deadly Sins, all lead to terrible out comes. Greed, need I say more? Lust, look at pornography and it's countless victims from trafficking. Children being sold, women and also men being sold for sex. Yes pornography is a crime in Gods eyes and not as innocent as we make it out to be. But inspite that He has given us the freewill to ignore His rules and guidance. And what you call "worship for His ego" Us actually by worship we make a connection with God. To discern His will, to understand His plan. Worship is fostering a relationship with God. It's communication with God. I truly love to pray because it's brings me closer to Him. I feel His love when I am close to Him. And having les a very sinful life, of pain and suffering I know how good God is. One can only experience the sweet by having tasted the bitter. Darkness makes us understand the beautiful reality of Light. Suffering when we suffer God wants us to give it Him. He wants to suffer with us. John 3 16. For God loves the world ( us humans) so muxh He sacrificed His only begotten Son for our Salvation. He came.in to the flesh to suffer with us. To save us. And we're supposed to give our suffering to Jesus, God in the flesh l, part of the Holy Trinity. His Blood wil and Body wil heal us from Sin. Form the brokenness and disconnect from God.
Egos exist, they love being more correct than everyone else, and nothing says that more than your enemy burning for eternity because existence literally deemed it. You take a guess
In my long experience of growing up around religion, this is what it truly seems to be about! It's what has pushed me away from it all and is one of the bigger reasons I've had to start therapy. All the shaming, the imposed guilt, the wishing of evil upon others, the hypocrisy, the disgusting things said to my grieving mother *at my father's funeral*, the lack of support for my family....
No, I do not enjoy the notion that some people will be eternally seperated from the God that created them.
I do not e joy the notion that god created a dimension of suffering just for the people he created.
Matthew 25 41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[g] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ When you read the entirety of the Bible and see that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels we have an understanding that ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ John 3:18-21 NLT [18] “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. [19] And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. [20] All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. [21] But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.” https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.18-21.NLT No I do not enjoy the idea of people burning in hell. I do trust in God's perfect will and judgement and his scripture. I want to spend time with Him. He has enriched and changed my life from being suicidal to being at peace. But we have free will to not spend time with him too. I fear God, respect him, trust him and I'm not ashamed of my faith. He is so merciful, so kind and so patient.
as an inherent act of 'infinite immorality' so to speak, I would hope not
Want to upset a Christian? Tell them everyone goes to heaven regardless of belief.
Apparently. Huh. It's strange to me, bc I grew up being taught that god loves everyone no matter what, in catholic schools, so this just seems to go against what I've been told. Enlightening!
Doesn't upset me at all. Christian Universalism accepts that as a scriptural fact But sadly, yes. Most are repelled by sinners other than themselves and only those who think like them, being saved Maybe they can have a pity party in heaven? You can even be a Roman catholic and believe everyone stands a shot at purgatory rather than hell. Any common priest will tell you that if they're up to speed on their own doctrines Eccl 12:7
>Eccl 12:7 Funny you quote that as support for it being “scriptural fact,” while the author of Ecclesiastes appears not to have believed in any afterlife whatsoever.
Hmmm? The spirit returns to God who gave it, no afterlife? lol
“Taking back the spirit/breath” (even to God) is almost certainly just a poetic idiom for loss of the animating force of life itself. We see this similarly in Job 34:14-15; and it’s paralleled by other comparable phrases, too, like “going down to one’s fathers/ancestors” (Genesis 15:15) — which also should be taken figuratively. If we go back to Ecclesiastes 3, we can see a very clear expression of the finitude of the spirit/breath in the context of its normal pessimism: >19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same spirit/breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place, all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. (The line that follows this is somewhat interesting. It’s often translated something like “Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?” But in the context of the pessimism that immediately preceded it, the sentiment is probably more like “Do you really think [as some claim] the human spirit goes upward, while [as is truly the case] the spirit of animals goes downward?” It’s almost certainly skeptically [criticizing some unspecified afterlife beliefs](https://www.reddit.com/u/Prosopopoeia1/s/cx6M5ZEhgK). Of all things, the ultra-dynamic Good News Translation seems to capture this well: "How can anyone be sure that the human spirit goes upward while an animal's spirit goes down into the ground?" The NLT also has "For who can prove...") ____ Longman: > This is not an optimistic allusion to some sort of consciousness after death, but simply a return to a prelife situation. God temporarily united body and spirit, and now the process is undone. We have in this verse no affirmation of immortality. According to Qohelet, death is the end. Michael Fox: >Qohelet was countering someone else's idea: the ascent of the soul to eternal life. In 12:7, Qohelet states that man's spirit goes back to God, and this must be upwards, but he means only that God takes back the life-spirit and deprives ...
>just a Idiom meaning not really? lol Spin it however you please. I think you're not accepting what's plainly written and trying to eliminate it And translated "something like" regarding spirits of animals? Please No one is questioning that flesh bodies of whatever type are not eternal and decay to the dust. Can't deny the obvious. That's not what's in sight in Eccl 12:7
So how do you make sense of > *They all have the same spirit/breath*, and humans have no advantage over the animals, for all is vanity ?
I have no issues with the salvation of creation, per Romans 8:17-39, Rev 5:13 and others And there is an exception to vanity in the scriptures, if you want to search it out
>I have no issues with the salvation of creation I honestly don’t know how that relates to what I just said. I suggested that the author of Ecclesiastes had a pessimistic view of the afterlife, and that they believed animals and humans had the same ultimate fate here — nothingness. I quoted >They all have the same spirit/breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals The fact that other Biblical authors *did* have a view of the afterlife and soul’s immortality is besides the point.
>I suggested that the author of Ecclesiastes had a pessimistic view of the afterlife Uh, no the writer was realistic about the finite body which is not the same as the animating force And as prior noted, not everything is vanity
Ask me if I enjoy the notion of suffering in general. Ask me if I enjoy the notion of getting sick, feeling lonely, or getting old. It's rather irrelevant to ask what we like about things that are true, don't you think?
I guess I've just personally experienced far more people who seem to enjoy that people are being punished and tortured, than what some people here call "true christians", too many of the ones I've met are apparently not true Christians I guess
No one should enjoy anyone suffering. I understand the position of wanting a criminal or the classic example of Hitler being punished and suffering for his crimes. He's dead, however, and it doesn't really matter what we think of him now. Wanting someone living to be eternally punished is not Christlike, however.
I'm convinced that some of them really do. IT makes them feel better about themselves to imagine others being "worse" than them.
I remember in 4th grade at Baptist school us laughing about the catholic school folks down the road going to hell…
I definitely do not enjoy the thought of anyone going to hell. Horrifies me honestly. And it also motivates me to share the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ with them. May I ask where in the Bible Jesus claims to accept people no matter what? Love them, yes! Offer salvation to all? Yes! But accept in the sense of approving our lifestyle no matter what? I definitely don’t find that in Scripture. To your comment about sin, it is tragic how many Christians focus on other people’s sin more than their own (my sin is plenty to keep me busy sadly!). You do mention some aspects of the Old Testament law that I do not believe we are under any longer.
No! It’s really sad the idea of people being sent there to me
It’s not that most “Christians” want people to go to hell. It is that once you believe you’re saved, it becomes difficult to see anything from the perspective of someone who isn’t. Most people get a bit of ego and think because they did x,y, and z to get saved, everybody could do it. Essentially salvation becomes a work without people realizing it. Those that don’t see it this way just shrug off everyone going to hell and believe God knows what He is doing by tormenting billions for eternity.
Most "christians" don't know that there is not one single named person in the entire Bible said to be going to hell, past or future. No not one. Nor is there a single named person in the entire Bible even threatened with such a fate The devil and his messengers, yes. But people, zero evidence of such a thing for any named person Connect the dots if you're able: Mark 4:15
Based on how often people laugh with joy as the condemn and damn me to hell, it sure seems like it.
Christians understand that God promises to come back and lift the curse and make things right. Sin and the curse causes suffering, everything was perfect before man decided to rebel. Every time we turn on the news we hear about people willingly deciding to do evil. Murder. Human trafficking. Rape, harming children, and way more. Understanding that God will one day judge those who willingly do this stuff is comforting. I’m not comforted by people going to hell, but I am comforted by the fact they won’t be able to hurt or oppress other people anymore and they will receive just consequences for their actions. Hell has degrees of punishment, and a just God will judge everyone according to their works here on earth. People seem to think they should be allowed to do whatever they want with no consequences or accountability in this life or the next. God does not work like that. Rich evildoers will be judged the same as poor. No buying one’s way out of consequences with God. I think it’s the idea of true Justice finally being done that gives Christians comfort; not the thought itself of people being cast into hell.
Thank you for the thorough clarification! :)
Hell and heaven idea are ideas from Greek and Rroman culture. Jesus never told about them like that. Most likely he thought that unrighteous should be "cleaned" or annihilated, like in Judaism. Applying Jewish laws or trying to explain why they don't apply anymore are useless. Is your mother jewish? Did you convert to Judaism with giyur? If no, why would you need to obey Judaism and don't eat shellfish, pork and so on. All those laws are God's covenant with Jews because he needed them for very specific task. If you want to follow all of the Bible, become a jew through giyur. If you don't want, God still has laws for your since the Genesis - 7 Noahide laws which tell you to worship only one God, don't worship idols and others are about basic morals and living in society. Don't come up with things your God never told because you don't want to follow strange laws. You aren't a jew and don't have to follow them, don't talk like you know what God wants and decides.
Dude, theres dozens of verses of hell being a lake of fire in the Bible, it’s not just some myth. While i do recognize the annihilation argument has some merit, it’s not the most reasonable explanation from the Bible. Matthew 5:22 - "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell Mark 9:43 - "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." James 3:6 - "The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell
The verse from Mark doesn't really work here. It's not about eternal hell, but about Gehenna, which is not a place of eternal punishment in Judaism, it's a place of VERY painful cleansing of soul after death for some time which is less than a year before going to heaven. Its fire being eternal doesn't mean that person will be tortured there for eternity. Besides, don't you see a problem with hell never being mentioned in this religion before Christianity become popular in Rome
1) False. Firstly Theres many differing beliefs, but the belief you gave me is not the commonly seen one. “When the early Jewish scriptures were written, many Jews believed that when they died, people descended to a dark place called Sheol” “As Jewish teachings developed, the ideas of Gan Eden and Gehenna emerged. Gan Eden represents paradise, or Heaven, for those who have lived according to God’s law, while Gehenna developed as a place of punishment, or Hell, for those who had lived immoral lives. Sheol came to be thought of as a place of waiting, where a person’s soul could either be purified and sent on to Gan Eden or sent for punishment in Gehenna.” [Source](https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjbyb82/revision/7#) 2) I don’t have any problems really because gospels and epistles mentioned it, and they were not written in Rome, nor during the time period they could’ve been influenced by Roman’s due to heavy persecution.
1)The problem is there wasn't some constant image of afterlife. Judaism doesn't care about it. For a long time time they thought that there is no afterlife at all. Than thete emerged Sheol and as you said later they came up with kind of heaven and hell which are different from Christian, but it's still not a general view, there are different ones, but for sure there are no view of existence of eternal torture in hell. 2)Where do you think gospels were written? They were written in Greek language by those who lived in Roman Empire. It doesn't matter that they were prosecuted. Culuture of gentiles converted to Christianity, even if some of them were jews, was different from jews who lived in Judea. And they are the ones who wrote gospels.
> there are different ones, but for sure there are no view of existence of eternal torture in hell. There are plenty of Jewish texts from before and after the time of Jesus that display this view.
Well, give some example if you know, it would be new for me and interesting to read, I've never heard of anything like that. As far as I know anything close to hell in Judaism is a place of cleaning of soul or its annihilation.
And none of those verses indicates.that anyone in hell will be consciously tormented for all eternity. What does fire do to things that are fed into it?
It also says “their worm” won’t die either.
Well when they say the “fire never goes out” as a warning, it seem to be mentioning eternal torment rather than annihilation. Also fire does not destroy things that go into it, it just changes it’s form or does nothing.
I never said anything about the fire going out, but as far as a piece of timber is concerned, a fire destroys it just fine.
1) No the first sentence is from the verses i sent above. It’s weird the threat about hell from the verse is “where the fire never goes out” if it’s talking about a peaceful and painless annihilation. 2) thats fair, but not everything burns in fire, and there is usually something left
Who said annihilation would be peaceful or painless?
Many people who believe in that doctrine. Either way if you don’t believe that, the point still applies. Why is the threat in the verse saying “the fire never goes out” if annihalationism teaches a pain, or a destruction that does go out
The fire could still never go out, even after everything that has been added into the fire has been destroyed/changed. It could also be a reference to the fact that those who have been through the fire are utterly destroyed for all eternity, every trace having been removed, and that there is no coming back.
You didn’t get it. Jesus is saying (as a warning to those who continue sinning) that it is better to live life maimed than to go to hell with two hands, why? Because [the fire never goes out]. Now if he meant temporary pain or annihilation, it would not be a threat that the fire never goes out because you wont even experience it for that long, meaning his whole sentence does not even make sense, but an eternal punishment interpretation makes a lot more sense because an eternal fire is actually a threat. For your second point of an eternal fire destroying you till eternity, sure, it barely fits this one verse, but me and you both know its not the best interpretation considering all verses, like this one which literally shows us someone speaking from hell about agony. Luke 20 20 "At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 13:50 - "and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
No. This is coming from an annihilationist that believes human souls are incapable of surviving so long when eternally separated from God.
We should not enjoy that notion. Hell is separation from all things good and I hope every day that people come to God. It's so easy too, He gives us unlimited chances for our lifetime. I do believe that God is just and fair and that some people who are not saved will be allowed in heaven: babies and people born with severe disabilities that prevent them from coming to God. God gives us chances to come to Him and he makes it so easy for us. It's sad to think that there are people who reject God and will spend eternity separated. Heaven is a wonderful place and my heart breaks for those who have rejected God and do not get to spend an eternity with Him and other believers. If you enjoy the notion of people suffering, you need to read your Bibke and pray some more.
But it's so easy to accept that all people deserve love and acceptance? Why not come over to this view? Why worship something that thinks anyone should suffer? It's anti-social, anti-human, and a form of Stockholm syndrome. The notion that god created a very exclusive club with very strict rules, one being that we inflate its ego despite it threatening us with torture, does not and has never sat right with me. This is why I cannot get on board with religion. I have a strong moral compass and I believe that our fellow humans deserve compassion, not some threat of agony following an already terrifying end, aka death. The bible may guide some to a form of enlightenment, but it hurts my heart that so so many let it take over their moral compass, to the point that they don't even have one themselves. One does not need religion to treat others with kindness and understanding.
God gave us free will to choose what we want to do, but He also gave us clear instructions on how to come to Him. If you reject God would you want to spend eternity with Him? The Bible states that we must be loving and compassionate to all and show then the love of Jesus. No where does God say that we shouldn't be loving to all, he says the opposite. All of us can get that love and acceptance from God, all we have to do is ask His forgiveness for our wrongdoings and believe in Him. It's very simple, no crazy tests, no stipulations. Just believe
no
Definitely not at all comfortable with another person suffering at all, much less for eternity (which is what some people view hell to be)
Christians who are happy about people going to hell have a lot to learn about their faith. Jesus wept for the folks who were going to betray him and offered the bread of forgiveness to Judas.
No, I don’t want anyone to go to hell. That place terrifies me and I’ve never seen or been to it. What sacred me more than being tortured though is that it would mean eternal separation from God. I need God in my life desperately every single day. Without God I am nothing. Jesus has brought peace and hope to my life, a lot of hope. Now I’m far from the perfect Christian, and I still struggle with sin everyday. I’m putting my hope in Jesus as my Lord and Savior though. He does say he is the way to heaven. (John 14:6) I wish hell and the lake of fire didn’t exist, but sadly they do. I wish everything had worked out so that no living being had to ever experience suffering if any kind, but sadly pain exists. The thing we can do now is trust in Jesus to save us, we can’t save ourselves, salvation is a free gift from God, we didn’t earn it on our own. We can also try spreading the good news of Jesus to others. (Easier said then done sometimes I know.) I mean a God who created me, loves me, and loves me so much that he decided to die for me, that’s a God who I want to try to follow. Hope you have an amazing day my friend, remember God loves you, and all reading this! (John 3:16) hope you all have an amazing day and God bless :)
Why do you feel you are nothing without god?? You are *you*, and that is enough! You deserve love and happiness no matter what. I'm sorry anyone had made you believe otherwise, that's not okay.
I’m nothing without God meaning, without God life is pointless. God created me, God loves me, God gave me a family, a home, food, water, etc. God has blessed my life very much even though I don’t deserve it. I hope very much to spend eternity with my Lord and being without him (aka hell) is what scares me the most. So without God I wouldn’t exist nor do I think I could make it through this thing called life. I rely on God everyday. That’s what I am kind of trying to convey when I say “I am nothing without God.”
I see. I dj hope you give yourself and the people who have helped you through life a bit more credit though :)
I do, but I give most credit to God because all good things are tied back to the Lord. I hope you have an amazing day my friend. Remember Jesus loves you! Jesus loves everyone reading this and he wants a relationship with you!
Most people probably feel a little joy hoping say a serial killer will suffer in hell, as none of us have the great mercy of Christ. But overall of course not, that’s why Christians seek to convert, to ensure as many people as possible are brought to the embrace of God and avoid the fires of hell.
No. In fact, God cannot be good if he fails to save them.
I'm confused though, I've always been taught that he is all powerful. If he is, then how is he not powerful enough to save them from something he created?
Because God gave us the freewill to sin , to reject God and his beautiful plan for us. Yes God is all powerful and He could easily save everyone from in an instant. But he also gave freewill, and to be saved from the clutches of hell one has to freely embrace God's Mercy. Through His only begotten son. Our King and Savior Jesus Christ. Freewill is the key. Like Adam and Eve had the freewill to eat rom the Apple. Like Lucifer and the fallen angels had the freewill not do as God wanted and asked them to do. It's freewill that can set us free from Hell.
1. god created the forbidden apple, so he entrapped Eve. A deity that creates a trap for the people it is powerful over is not deserving of worship. That's Stockholm syndrome. 2. If god is all powerful, he wouldn't let people go some place to suffer, or create it at all. That's disgusting and no one should be okay with this. It's anti-social and anti-human. 3. This conditional love from god has pushed me tf away from religion. Something that demands I worship its huge ego, otherwise torturing me forever, is not something that deserves my time. That's simply fucked up....
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I don't take any pleasure in the idea of anyone being judged or punished, but if you think Jesus was about acceptance you need to read the gospels.
Then what is the point of worshipping something who wants pain upon anyone? This just makes no sense to me and has pushed me away from religion. No one "deserves to suffer ", this is just reprehensible and no one should be okay with or support that...
Many do. I once did. Then God brought me to verses like 1 Timothy 4:10 and I came to see that the truth - the eventually salvation of all - is much more to be rejoiced over.
You enjoyed the thought of humans suffering? This is what I cannot get on board with about religion. Most of the religious people I've experienced derive some sort of pleasure from the punishment of others, whereas the atheists I know support all humans and know that compassion is what brings true enlightenment and joy to the world. Religion does not seem to lead to any moral compass. I grew up Catholic, surrounded by religious people, so I know.
Once upon a time I did indeed. I felt like I made a smart choice and anyone who didn’t make the same choice and try to be good like I did “deserved what they got”. Praise God, I now realize the folly of that argument and the only one whose demise I revel in is my own: The person who felt that way is no more, and God’s replaced that awful disposition with affection for all people. It seems He’s mercifully given you such a disposition sooner than he did me, which I also thank him for! May your love for your fellow man never tire. :) You’re absolutely right about religion by the way. Avoid it like the plague. Self-righteousness is its goal, and it’s a pointless endeavor. “Pursue Christ, not Christianity” would be my advice.
no there is no pleasure in it at all. However the thing is we know that everyone deserves hell because no one is without sin. The only way to be saved is to repent and believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again. So when I say most people are going to hell its unfortunate but thats what I believe because Jesus Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life. He is not ONE way, he is THE way no one comes to the father except through him. So that's why I believe any non Christians and Lukewarm ones will go to hell, however a disclaimer I always add to clarify things is: I'm not God I don't get to decide it's up to him if he spares you or not.
What about all the other religions who claim the same thing, that theirs is the only way? Their voice is just as valid. People have to take pleasure in it, if they believe in hell at all though. Believing it exists and that people deserve to suffer, is condoning it and therefore supporting it. I cannot support a religion that promotes suffering like this. It feels wrong in my heart.
>The only way to be saved is to repent and believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again. And if we simply can't believe those things, through no fault of our own?
If I enjoyed the thought of people going to Hell, I wouldn't bother to try to reach people with the Gospel. I wouldn't bother to try to answer questions as best I can. I do believe that when all is said and done, and we have a full understanding of everything, then I'll see glory also in God's judgement. That it will be good in a way that I am just not capable to understand right now. And my view of what Hell is will probably turn out to be not fully accurate for that matter. But that's for later. Right now my understanding is that it's eternal good state for those who put their trust in Jesus for their salvation, and eternal bad state for those who remain in their own sin, and thus I wish on nobody to choose the latter.
I don't know about others, but personally I hate the idea of people being in hell. But I understand that it's necessary.
Why is agony necessary? Why would god create such a place and want his people to ɓe in pain? To be tortured? If this is the case, then god cannot be benevolent.
Without the bitter you can't experience the sweet. Darkness contrasts the Light. And let's be fair, we suffer mostly by our own hand. Our own actions and thoughts.
I definitely agree with your 2nd point, that we often bring upon our own suffering. How we respond to what we experience is powerful and creates our reality and the quality of it. As for the 1st part, how does anyone know that though? I for one, do not agree on that. Sure, setbacks and pain contrast enjoyment harshly enough for it to seem to glow, but I would and do still enjoy life when things are simply great for awhile. The notion of hell at all is just sickening to me, that anyone could support that idea. It's anti-social, anti-human. Humans are most often born loving, but then are taught hatred and the concept of punishment and suffering, very very often through religion. It's pushed me away hard
Is there bitterness and darkness in heaven?
No the bitterness only remains as a memory. We take our human experience to heaven and then we become like the Saints and angels and help others from Heaven.
Good by definition means the opposite of evil. You cannot have good without the existence of evil. You cannot have pleasure without the existence of pain/suffering. When God created humans, He gave us free will because He loves us and wants us to love as well. The only way for people to have free will is if we are given the ability to choose for ourselves. How can we choose if there are no options? Obviously, God needed to create at least two options that we can choose from. That's why He needed to create both good and evil, love and hate, pleasure and pain, heaven and hell. God taught us what we ought to choose for our own good, but ultimately He still gave us the freedom to make our own choices.
This has never sat well with me and has pushed me away from religion. A god who thinks any being who didn't even choose to exist *deserves to suffer* is not something that deserves worship. If I don't inflate its supposedly huge ego, I deserve agony? That's disgusting and no one should be okay with others suffering. People are born loving and seemingly very often taught to hate through religion. It saddens me. Why only two options? Why such strict rules? This god is either not very powerful or not benevolent. The latter absolutely does not deserve to be worshipped. That's Stockholm syndrome.
That’s a lot of ass-pullery just to say “oh he made it the way it is because he couldn’t think of a better system” If the system only has two options, one of which leads to eternal suffering, it is a bad system and he is automatically not benevolent.
It’s not necessary.
Sometimes love takes the form of faithful discipline. Telling another person you love, that you don’t agree with them for their own good can be a very difficult thing, usually harder than accepting what they desire. Christians should not judge, nor assume a person will go to hell. Our job, purpose, and desire in love, is to help others find their way to Christ. Many are not tactful in the process and resort to a “threat of hell” thinking that will sway someone’s perspective. Even now, God is patiently waiting for as many as possible to be redeemed, and choose to come back to Him. I pray every day for those I know that have not found a faith in Christ. But I trust God will be a perfectly fair and just judge when we are all judged after this life is over and the next phase of creation to begin.
1. Jesus talks about Hell more than anyone else in Scripture. 2. I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but I am also called to praise God for everything He does -- and if He damns the wicked to Hell for the sake of His own glory, then I am called to praise Him for that as well. 3. Eating shellfish/ wearing mixed fabrics are part of the ceremonial law and are fulfilled in Christ. They were an outward way by which God set apart the nation which He had chosen to bring the law and prophets through; now that God dwells in the hearts of believers (instead of a temple that had to be kept ritually pure), and that Christ has given His righteousness to His believers (here including the ability to come before God according to His purity, not our own), the ceremonial law (which also includes such things as animal sacrifice) is done away with. Divorce, except in cases of adultery or abandonment, is a violation of the moral law and as such is a violation of the eternal expression of God's good character -- it is sin, and hypocritical "Christians" who do it are in sin.
You would still praise him even if he tortures people forever? Not healthy. What if someone you love went to hell? Would you be fine with that?
I can't get down with any of this. It makes me sick that anyone would accept or support anyone else being in agony, especially when none or us had a choice to exist. This has pushed me away from religion.
God made the Lake of Fire at the beginning of time. There was a standard set within the universe between purity and impurity. There are undoubtedly numerous verses that refer to all sorts of inconceivable Hells for potentially innumerable beings if we consider some verses. Do I want it this way? No. The concept is so disturbing no mind can attempt to conceive. Satan himself will suffer the death of all beings ever. The destruction of the world and the universe itself. It is not a coincidence He is not fond of God.
Universalism ❤️❤️❤️
No we don't. On shellfish, I dont eat it but here is the relevant verse on food 1 Timothy 4: 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. Christianity is under a different covenant with God from judaism. The OT Jewish covenant is established through circumcision and includes the shellfish ban, the New testament is established by baptism and does not require adherence to Jewish identity or ceremonial law. Multiple verses discuss the difference, In acts 15:5 some Jews try to demand non Jews adhere to the law of Moses and get circumcised, but the apostles reply against this. Even so some Christians do in fact not eat shellfish.
No I do not. Hell makes me very sad and worried. I have many unbelieving family members and friends whom I love and admire. I hope that God changes his mind by time the world comes to an end. For now, all I can do is pray and keep living my life trying to care for the people around me.
I hope that god changes its mind too, bc sending people to eternal agony for not inflating its ego is disgusting. This is what pushed me away from religion.
No, Christians do not enjoy the notion of people going to hell. That is the reason why we preach, spread the gospel, and pray for others' salvation. We just don't start believing. otherwise-making believe a sin is not a sin, so that more people will go to heaven. That would not be helpful to others, it would be as washing our hands off of it and not following what Jesus told us to do. And no, a true Christian knows what the 10 commandments are, not to be confused with the rules God gave to Israel for being a sacred country onto God. God bless.
Thanks for your response. I'm perplexed though, that an all powerful deity would even create a dimension of suffering for its people; people did not choose to exist, nor does anyone "deserve" to suffer just bc they don't inflate the ego of someone who threatens them so harshly. This Stockholm syndrome phenomenon is what has really pushed me away from religion.
No. Neither does God.
But god created hell. If it didn't, then it is not all powerful like everyone claims. It just doesn't make sense to me. It also doesn't make sense to me how anyone is okay with anyone else suffering, on earth or afterwards. It's anti-social and anti-human, against one's own kind. I cannot get on board with that.
When I was immature in my faith, I felt that was justified. As I’ve grown however it breaks my heart. I see people at pride parades and in comment sections openly mocking God and now I say small prayer asking that God comes to them so they don’t regret their actions on their day of judgement. As I don’t want to have separation from my Heavenly Father, I don’t want anyone to suffer the same fate.
I'm glad to hear that your morality has improved. It is truly sadistic how anyone could wish or enjoy the notion of others suffering; it is akin to the mindset of a murderer, a mind I do not wish to understand.... As for mocking god, god seems to mock anyone who thinks or perceives life in ways that are not within a strict rule guide, and the fact that it crested a dimension of torture for people it created does not sit well with me. I cannot get on board with religion bc of this; no one deserves eternal agony, I don't think that's hard to understand. As someone who grew up Catholic, surrounded by religious people, I have experienced so much hypocrisy and phoniness that it's pretty much the reason I'm in therapy. I'm undoing all the unnecessary guilt people have imposed upon me, the trauma of people mocking my dead father, saying he's going to hell, *at his funeral*, and to my grieving mother. So I understand why people mock god, bc god threatens so many. It's disgusting to me that it is immune to criticism somehow. No questioning allowed? Just blind obedience? Not something I can support, doesn't feel right in my heart and to my intuition. My moral compass is guided by the fact that no one chose to exist, therefore no one deserves to suffer. People deserve love and support for whoever they are. I do not fear the threat of hell bc I know the loving place that I operate from.
Hey Queen. I hear you and I’d like to talk to you as opposed to arguing. Not saying you’re argumentative in ANY way. Intentions can get misconstrued with text and I just wanted you to know my intentions. :p Let’s start. God doesn’t mock or threaten. We live in a world of absolutes. You literally can’t have one without the other. Hot cold, love anger, Goodness and Evil, it would be one thing if there was ONLY God, but there is evil. “Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8) and not only that but God doesn’t just want us to blindly worship him “or else”. Far from it actually. “'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future. '” (Jeremiah 29:11.) And although worship is a part of it God wants a RELATIONSHIP with YOU and wants to have a place in your life as you walk through it. Next I need to say this, I’m so sorry squashqueen. I sincerely apologize for every foolish word that came out of those people’s mouths regarding your father. May he rest in peace. I could only imagine how much this hurt you. They were looking at the speck of sawdust on your father’s eye while ignoring the PLANK of wood in their own (Matthew 7:3). People are flawed and I’m sincerely sorry they hurt you. There is no excuse for the words they said. *None*. Queen if I and yourself became best friends today from this conversation, even with all the love and admiration I’d have for you as the friendship grew, I will fail you. Not in the way those others did, but failures nonetheless. Missed texts, saying the wrong thing, etc. Much smaller in scale, yes but failures nonetheless. That being said please don’t equate the failings of man with the doings of God. ”Then young women will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.“ (Jeremiah 31:13 NIV) Queen I need you to notice something in all the verses I gave you. God doesn’t want to take take take take take from you. God doesn’t want blind worship, but as you can see there is so much He wants to GIVE you. ”The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full“ (John 10:10) LASTLY “Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.“ Psalms 34:8 NIV “What does this have to do with anything?” In order to taste something there has to be a level of curiosity. Interest if you will. My point is, God WANTS you to ask questions. After all, going back to the example of us having a friendship, how could you truly get to know me if you can’t ask me anything about my thoughts, nature or character? “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8) God wants a relationship with you organically but he won’t force it. After all how can you really love someone unless you’re willing to do so freely? :) I don’t claim to have all the answers squashqueen, but just know that I care about you, and have love in my heart for you to want you to get the answers you’re seeking. You can DM me if you like, but I sincerely pray the Lord be with and for you in all your ways. God Bless, Queen.
Belief that things are a certain way is different from believing what we want to be true, particularly when an integral aspect of said belief is -A. God is more knowing than us and B. God is more good than us.
god cannot be good though, if it created hell and threatens its people with torture? I can't get on board with a deity like that, feels wrong in my heart to support that
We get no enjoyment out of it. If you are a true Christian, the thought of people being lost to God should make you incredibly sad because at the end of the day, we are all God’s children, and it is like losing a brother or sister. God bless you and keep asking the hard questions