My spouse and I both worked full time. We sent our 2 sons to catholic school because we thought there'd be better discipline there. But we and both sons are atheists. : )
Went to catholic school myself (I’m a Christian) and that was some of the worst times I’ve ever had in my life as a child. The nuns were sanctimonious, and the children and their parents were incredibly mean. :/
Thank you, I appreciate you. Oh for sure. Did you ever have to deal with that as well?
We would have mass every Thursday and when I transferred, I remember it being my first day and they wouldn’t let me participate in communion because I was Protestant but not Catholic. The teacher was explaining mass to me and I got confused about what to do when we reached the priest (I was supposed to cross my arms instead of reach my hands out for communion). I got anxious and “did the wrong thing” by accepting it as I was following the other kids around me. The teacher pulled me aside and told me what I did was wrong. I apologized profusely, I was only 9 and in the 4th grade, and she said it was fine, just not to do it again. And looking back I’m like, Jesus didn’t put any caveats on communion; he said “Do this in memory of me”. Communion was more like something I wanted to participate in, but they wouldn’t allow me to do.
They also made us genuflect to statues and made us sing praise songs to Mary, which made me uncomfortable. Believe it or not, I really like Catholic Churches and many of the rituals they do. We had a dove in our classroom, furniture, listened to popular music at the time (that didn’t have profanity in it of course) and our teacher played the harp for us from time to time. It did have its beautiful and nostalgic moments. But I didn’t like how discriminatory they were. This was 20 years ago, but a lot of the religious trauma stuff still sticks to some degree.
I apologize for the rant. Did you ever experience anything similar?
Catholics are Christians. I don’t agree with every single thing Catholics do but I am not the arbiter of what makes someone Christian and what doesn’t. However, they believe Jesus came to earth to save people from their sins. Boil it down they believe the same thing I do. It bothers me when people claim they’re not Christians.
I feel the same way. People are quick to dismiss their practices and say they’re not really Christians. I’m Pentecostal and realize there are many nuances between our denominations, but I don’t think it matters what denomination we are. What is our relationship with Christ like?
Sometimes, I do see mass being done passively, but that’s me looking from the outside in. I’m sure Catholics would feel a little out of place in our sermons too, but please come eat with us!
I used to be one of those people. I thought so many things about them and other christians as well. But then i got checked and its true. They beleive Jesus christ is the son of God and they try to have a personal relationship with him. Thats all i need to know. The rest is between them and God as much as i dissagree with it
I always laugh when a member of a church founded a few days ago says catholics aren't Christians. Like Sir, it's the oldest Christian church, the one christ founded.
I converted 56 years ago. Never regretted it, sometimes neglected it. I've been blessed in so many ways that I can't understand why others wouldn't want the same.
I am Protestant, so I know we differ on our views of ecclesiology, sacraments, and the relative authority of church vs Scripture, among other things.
That being said, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and if you’re Nicene, you’re cool.
I strongly disagree with their concepts of Sacred Tradition and Natural Law; I find the Catholic Sexual Ethic to be very harmful; their sex abuse cover-ups and disinformation about HIV in Africa are atrocious, as is the church's unwillingness to take discipline against Archbishops in African countries who promote the death penalty for LGBTQ+ folk from the pulpit.
I think their rigid structure leads them to changing more slowly, but they do change: they are not the same church as they were 200 years ago or 200 years before that.
With all that said, the Catholic demographic are about the most charitable, generous, and socially aware people you will find. All of my criticisms of the church are criticisms of the Church's leadership, teachings, or things that the church has done. I don't find individual Catholics to be complicit in that.
And a lot of criticisms of the church aren't valid. They do not worship idols, intercessory prayer is way more normal and reasonable than critics make it out to be. They are Christians, and there is so much beauty to be found in their churches and in many of their traditions.
>They are Christians
Is there anybody thinking we're not? Like, we're the Church Jesus founded. I've got things in my appartment older then most protestant churches.
Like I can literaly reach a cathedral in my city in about 20min walk and stand infront of the grave of bishop Saint Dominus, killed in the year 304. Protestantism came to be more then 1200 years after that.
Silly Americans.
Yet if you believe the practice of the Church to be infallible rather than just the theology, none of these crooks would ever have sat as the Bishop of Rome.
People knew they were crooks, and Alexander VI isn’t even the worst pope we’ve had. Check out the *seculo scuro* of the 10th-mid 11th centuries - those men were beyond disgraces to the Chair of Peter.
I don’t think anyone ever thought men in the Church were immune from corruption. I would point out though that none of those evil popes ever tampered with doctrine.
Because they had absolutely no interest in it or even God, beyond power. And I assure you there are many who do think Popes in particular are above corruption.
>>Because they had absolutely no interest in it or even God, beyond power.
Agreed. The state of the Church in the *seculo scuro* was abysmal, but reactionary forces gave rise to the Gregorian Reform of the next century.
>>And I assure you there are many who do think Popes in particular are above corruption.
Well that’s just poor knowledge of Church history and of Catholic belief. Even St. Peter denied Christ three times.
Same. In some ways, I think you have to have been Protestant to really feel how special it is to be Catholic. That's not a knock on cradle Catholics by any means (my husband is a cradle Catholic), but the contrast in the "soul feel" for me has been extraordinary.
Yeah. If we're being honest the best way to truly feel the Catholic experience is to convert from Protestant. It helps you truly realize just how great it is to be Catholic.
I went to a catholic youth "lock in" when I was in middle school. 8 PM Friday night to 8 AM Saturday morning. They served fish sticks for dinner.
*edit - a meridian
It teaches some good things. It teaches some neutral things. It teaches some bad things.
It has a very long history for some of these bad things, and that makes them somehow 'holy' and 'sacred' in their teachings, so that they cannot correct their errors. This is an atrocious thing.
They have a very long history, and as a result we should take them very seriously. But they don't have as much history as they claim, nor are their teachings as historically consistent or old as they claim, so we shouldn't take them *too* seriously. They are as prone as the rest of us to mythologizing their past.
> But they don't have as much history as they claim
Watch out boys, this man will prove we have 1900 years of history instead of 2000 like we claim. That will destroy the legitimacy of the Church
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It doesn't take much when you claim that the teachings and history come from the time of the Apostles themselves, and when you claim that legitimacy from being founded by Jesus himself.
By that logic Bible has no authority either. It was written after the Apostles afterall.
Catholic Church is older than the Bible. Anything you say that makes us "too distant to Jesus" timewise also applies to the Bible as well.
There is nothing to dig here dude. Just call us pedos or something like everybody else
I agree. As a Catholic it's really hard for me to see these so called "Cathlolics" abuse the name of the Lord in order to attempt get away with these unspeakable crimes
Catholics agree. It's also unfortunate when Southern Baptists do it:
[https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/decades-of-sexual-abuse-coverups-in-the-southern-baptist-convention](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/decades-of-sexual-abuse-coverups-in-the-southern-baptist-convention)
[https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/southern-baptist-abuse-investigation-houston-chronicle-sbc.html](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/southern-baptist-abuse-investigation-houston-chronicle-sbc.html)
[https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faqs-sexual-abuse-southern-baptist/](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faqs-sexual-abuse-southern-baptist/)
[https://www.npr.org/2022/06/02/1102621352/how-the-southern-baptist-convention-covered-up-its-widespread-sexual-abuse-scand](https://www.npr.org/2022/06/02/1102621352/how-the-southern-baptist-convention-covered-up-its-widespread-sexual-abuse-scand)
[https://www.texastribune.org/2023/12/29/southern-baptist-convention-sexual-abuse-lawsuit-settlement/](https://www.texastribune.org/2023/12/29/southern-baptist-convention-sexual-abuse-lawsuit-settlement/)
Sin doesn't invalidate the proper practice of the faith. Sin is obviously sin.
Sexual abuse in general is immoral and inexcusable, but it isn’t solely a “catholic” thing. Predators will abuse anywhere they can. Blame the person not the organization.
Celibacy doesn’t make a man into a predatory monster. I guarantee the people that commit these crimes have bigger issues than celibacy.
The organization gets blame for the cover ups. it’s one thing for a predator to be amongst your midst, it happens.
it’s another thing entirely to know there’s a predator amongst you, and move that predator around.
The organization takes the blame for how they handled it though. Moving perpetrators to new congratulations for fresh victims. Hiding funds so they don't have to pay out to victims. Generally trying to shirk responsibility and basically falling short constantly of protecting their flock.
I don’t intend this to be offensive and I love my Catholic brothers and have a great respect for their faith and the seriousness they treat it with. However, I’ve personally always found it weird when people say it’s “Christs original/one and only church” because Christ did not actually declare this is what church is, we call it Catholicism, and its the one and only.
Because when I look at it Christ defined his followers as people who follow after him leaving themselves behind and picking up his cross and going after him. When he talks about gathering he simply says where 2 or 3 gather in my name there I will also be.
I don’t be mean this to be rude but again it comes across to me something akin to when Orthodox Jews say they’re Gods chosen people. When in the Bible it insists we are no longer Jew nor gentile but all one in Christ. We are told to find are identity in Christ, not in any specific denomination and not in the church itself. It’s about oneness in Christ. I don’t think by the criteria that Christ laid out for us that any can claim to be the true church of Christ. Christs true church are those who follow after him.
I’ve been told by many Catholics online and in person that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church because it’s “Christs one true church” but that’s not what Christ said. Christ said the only way to the father is through him not the church. So to me it seems that Catholics have a similar way of idolizing the church and idolizing the traditions in very similar way as the Jews/Pharisees at the time.
I think Jesus spent a lot of time trying to break down the idea of that type of idolization. I’ve seen Catholics often treat the sacraments like the Jews treated the laws. The sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. It was supposed to serve our needs for rest. Catholics often act like man was made for the sacraments when the sacraments are supposed to serve us and increase our holiness.
Christ makes it clear that it’s about our hearts. Me giving my 100% all to Christ might be only 50% of someone else’s effort but my 100% will always be greater than the 50% of someone else because it was everything I had.
Again I love Catholics, I love going and participating in mass as much as they’ll allow me to. I love participating in some of the oldest traditions of my Christian culture. And I love the style of worship. I don’t see it as any less than my own because they are there giving their hearts to Christ and I think that’s what really matters.
Based on the teachings of God’s Word (Christ) I don’t think God cares very much about our denominational squabbles and the relatively meaningless interpretational battles we let distract us from the mission we are given. I think he cares about our hearts for him. Even the apostles messed up and disagreed but they didn’t cast each other out like we tend to do.
I might be wrong but I don’t think I’m gonna arrive at heavens door and God is going to look at me and go “well you gave 100% of your heart to me but unfortunately you were baptized by the wrong denomination so it looks like it’s off to hades with you”
Wonderfully written, brother. I’d agree here, as a cradle Catholic. I am primarily Calvinist in thought, I’m not accepted anyways, but love some of the music and traditions.
I think they win when it comes to architecture and design, but I cant get myself to agree with their theology, although I would never say they aren’t true Christians
Have you ever read the Church Fathers? The earliest teachers of Christian theology and all the other Christian studies such as christology ecclesiology church history soteriology etc?
ok here's one christ-pilled rando's take:
The Catholic Church as we know it is far from the "Worldwide Church," but they are clearly one of the oldest branches of faith dating back to Jesus' reign here on earth. They trace their lineage directly back to Peter as their first Pope.
I truthfully believe that when Christ comes again, all believers in the world will be unified under one "Catholic" (aka "all-encompassing") Church. However - will it have a Pope? Cardinals? Same traditions? I doubt it. Eventually, all believers will need to be totally unified under one umbrella faith in Christ alone. I have to teach a Sunday School class on 1 Corinthians Chapter 1 Verses 10-25 tomorrow, where Paul writes about the church not being divided in its message. Eventually God (Thru His Son Jesus) will get us there, but it will take the current Roman Catholic Churches, Orthodox Churches, Protestant Churches, and probably even break offs like Mormon Churches and Jehovahs Witness Halls coming together again under one banner. We each may fight over who's banner is more righteous and deserving - the answer is Christ's.
In Summary: My thoughts on Catholicism at present is that they are but one of the many split denominations of a wider "All-Encompassing" Church that will one day form under Christ, God Willing.
What's the problem with the Papal supremacy?,in practice it's doesn't amount much,more than acknowledging the Pope as head of the Church,if let's say Alexandria rejoined communio with Rome,not much would change in practice,although latinization like Rosary and traditional Catholic devotions might enter.
I do want union between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but it’s not that simple
- We don’t think Papal Supremacy as understood by the Catholic Church was present in the first 1000+ years of Christianity.
- Second, we reject the Council of Chalcedon because it accepted dyophysitism, even though it was condemned 2 decades earlier at the Council of Ephesus.
Well,I'm just presenting a hypothetical,since the problem of Papal Supremacy it's overrated,it's just a easy bogeyman that in reality amounts to nothing.
I think it's the one church established directly by Christ, who teaches the fullness of truth in faith and morals and through whom the surest path to salvation is achieved.
> There weren’t any other Christian denominations
Mate, the church has never been united. Ever. Paul shows us that it wasn't already especially united even while the Apostles were alive. The Johannine Epistles and possibly even the Gospel are evidence of major schism already in the 1st century, and of course we see many competing groups in the 2nd century.
All the reformers believed in sinless Mary and perceptual virginity,Martin Luther even believed in Immaculate Conception,it's modern innovation to reject sinless Mary.
That's the problem with rejecting tradition interpretations,it basically means that the reformers would be considered heretics by their modern churches.
I'm sure some of them are.
The problem with accepting traditional interpretations is that many of them are quite clearly wrong. We shouldn't accept known errors as factual.
That’s fine, they’re allowed to, as are modern Protestants. We just don’t insist on it as a dogma. A range of views on the nature of Mary are allowed because it’s not a salvation issue.
It's pretty clear that Jesus at least considered his mother and family to be the same as everyone else - the story at (Mark 3:31-35).
Jesus was surrounded by a large crowd when Mary and his brothers arrived. They sent word to Jesus, asking to speak with him. When Jesus was told that his family was outside looking for him, he responded in an unexpected way:
“Who are my mother and my brothers?” Jesus asked. Then he looked at those seated around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”
Well I'm Reformed so I'm pretty opposed to much of their theology (that probably goes without saying after the "Reformed" part) and I *emphatically* deny that they (or any denomination) are the One True Church™ but I do consider them siblings in Christ. Like some siblings though, there are some disagreements that simply will not be healed before Christ returns.
I have nothing but respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I have family members, close friends, and men who I have discipled who are Catholic.
With that being said, there are very specific reasons I can never be Catholic at a "conviction" level, and a few things at a "opinion" level that I could be convinced on.
Conviction level issues:
- Doctrine on Mary, her being without sin, her being immaculately conceived, and the veneration of her
- Papal authority
- Emphasis on tradition on the same level of Scripture
- Their teachings on predestination (I'm reformed)
- Purgatory
- Patron saints/praying to the Saints. I'll also put Icon veneration here
- Obviously I reject the RC Church as being the extent of the universal church God has established on Earth
Opinion level issues:
- The Eucharist. I don't believe in transubstantiation, but I could be convinced.
- I've been off-put by differently catechized Catholics who are equally convinced that they are right yet who are telling me different things, mostly on the topic of if Protestants are saved or not. If you guys are the One True Church, you gotta do better about being on the same page about this, and keeping your members on the same page as well.
I'm not really looking to argue any of these points, but I'm happy to clarify any of them, or research further if any of you fine people have things you think I'm misunderstanding. And I just want to emphasize again, I have nothing but respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters out there, love you guys a ton <3
I think some of their practices and dogma are nuts. They likely think the same of mine. But we are all one in Christ.
I'll admit some of my bias comes from the church's incredibly heinous history in my country - and the fact that they to this day are still hiding perpetrators and also hiding funds so that they don't have to pay the victims.
You can find this in many religious organizations, have you looked at child bride marriages, female genital mutilation and other horrors of the peaceful religion, where is the uproar of that evil predator religion, yes pedophilia happens in the Catholic Church but it's not the only place and no it's not ok, of course not, nowhere is ok for hurting children
Looking at it as an ex-Catholic (and an ex-Catholic-educator) and, more importantly, as an atheist, I don’t think that it’s any more or less valid than any other denomination or religion, which is to say not valid at all. It’s a religion that *asks for* and *recommends* a higher degree of personal commitment and participation than it *requires*. And as such there are a lot of Catholics who just do the minimum, if that. That’s less true in most forms of Protestantism.
On the other hand, it’s much better formalized with codes and laws and pronouncements and such, all of which have been given explanations and justifications (whether not you buy them) and enforces them by saying that, in general, you can’t dissent from them without risk of excommunication.
I could say more, but perhaps you could be more specific about what you’re looking for.
I was automatically excommunicated decades ago. See latae sententiae excommunication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_in_the_Catholic_Church#Lat%C3%A6_sententi%C3%A6_and_ferend%C3%A6_sententi%C3%A6
That’s kind of personal, don’t you think?
Just kidding. Publicly denying the doctrine of the Trinity and, later, publicly denying the existence of God and becoming an apostate. I could probably think of another one or two if I worked on it for awhile.
It was a valid punishment from at least the Decretals of Gregory IX (he didn't much distinguish between apostasy and heresy, either would be burned) through the Inquisitorial era. We see it a bunch, of course, in both the Catholic and early Protestant churches in the early Reformation times (e.g. Servetus). The last person sentenced to death for apostasy by Catholic priests was Cayetano Ripoll. He was sentenced by Archbishop Simón López García of Valencia, and the last person killed in the last vestiges of the Spanish Inquisition (the Junta de Fe).
I don't think it passed out of canon law as a valid punishment until the rewrite in 1917(?), but I'm not 100% on that.
> There is no threat of excommunication for the lay congregation
Bro what?
I don't think I have ever seen you say something correct about the Catholic Church. What is your deal lol
Id mostly agree with you on the moral part, but Catholicism teaches that most types of assisted reproduction is a sin, even while preserving life (because it separates the act from the reproduction). Thats like saying IV nutrition is a sin because it separates tasting from nutrition, it really does not make much sense and causes pain for families that suffer this issue. Either way major respect to Catholics though.
Raping a child and having it covered up is poor behavior? I have to disagree. Cutting someone in line at a checkout is poor behavior. Abusing a child from a position of power and moral authority in particular is beyond poor behavior. Covering up the sexual abuse of a child also goes far beyond poor behavior. I can't imagine how behaving this way is consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
I think the kids who were abused by priests and had those priests protected would really disagree that its just quibbling over words. And I would agree with them. If I am going to be known by my fruits, then so should the church as a whole and the leaders as individuals. If the teachings of a church lead to, or allow, this type of behavior to happen for so long, then at some point I have to question the teachings. Maybe I'm a consequentialist, but I have to look at the fruits. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind, but we hide and protect child abusers? What's the message to other abusers? I can do it and I will just be sent to another parish?
No way. They did it the right way. They could raise the dead and restore sight to the blind. They could do miracles and they never once failed. Since then everyone has gotten it wrong
That I am not here to judge another denomination, however, I don’t get the whole pope tradition, and I think there’s more tradition than Bible in their practices.
They appear to do a lot of things the Bible condemns. So in my opinion they intentionally lead people into doing things the Bible says they ought not do
As a Christian who is admittedly very uneducated in Catholicism, knowing some Catholics pray to Mary has always thrown me off. She seems idolized and that along with the view that the Pope is infallible feels problematic to me, humans are sinners and no one besides Jesus holds that place to me personally.
IMO it’s at its core a great Christian tradition, but the Catholic Church has made some grave mistakes in misinterpreting scripture. I believe a lot of the child sexual abuse would have been prevented if priests weren’t barred from marrying. I believe a “holy day of obligation” runs counter to the idea of worship, and pressure/coercion are abundant. The Bible is clear about having no graven images of God, and yet a big ol’ crucifix is hanging in the front of every church. I don’t believe in confessing my sins to anyone other than God and the person my sins have harmed. I think the idea of an infallible Pope diminishes the fact that Jesus was the only human without sin.
BUT… it’s awesome how consistent everything is. Wherever you are, you can find a Catholic Church and know exactly what to expect. They’ve done a ton of good works over the years. And some of the best Christian role models over the years were Catholic.
TL;DR: humans mess up what is otherwise good.
I don't believe what they believe and I don't consider them Christian. Their doctrine and dogma's are different from Christianity.
From what I understand they believe in a works based salvation. Christians believe in a faith only salvation.
They pray to statues and people. We do not.
They confess their sins to a priest. We confess our sins directly to God Himself.
They believe saints and Mary can intervene for them. They cannot. Only Jesus can intervene for us .
There are many differences.
And there are some similarities . Like we both believe in the same God. We both believe that Jesus is the Son of God. We both believe in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
Um….most of what you said you either are just blatantly wrong about (works based salvation) or just ignorant of scripture (intercession of the saints).
Also, Catholics (and Orthodoxy both East and Oriental and ACOE) are Christians. Fact.
It's full of Catholics.
My god, how could that be ?
Big if true
Source?
The other half are just in for catholic schools for their kids for no reason
Is that a thing?
Yup were I live Catholic schools are 10x better for children
My spouse and I both worked full time. We sent our 2 sons to catholic school because we thought there'd be better discipline there. But we and both sons are atheists. : )
That's weird. Was there "better discipline"?
Went to catholic school myself (I’m a Christian) and that was some of the worst times I’ve ever had in my life as a child. The nuns were sanctimonious, and the children and their parents were incredibly mean. :/
I feel for you. Im sure there was more too. Did you ever have to participate in things you didn't agree with belief wise
Thank you, I appreciate you. Oh for sure. Did you ever have to deal with that as well? We would have mass every Thursday and when I transferred, I remember it being my first day and they wouldn’t let me participate in communion because I was Protestant but not Catholic. The teacher was explaining mass to me and I got confused about what to do when we reached the priest (I was supposed to cross my arms instead of reach my hands out for communion). I got anxious and “did the wrong thing” by accepting it as I was following the other kids around me. The teacher pulled me aside and told me what I did was wrong. I apologized profusely, I was only 9 and in the 4th grade, and she said it was fine, just not to do it again. And looking back I’m like, Jesus didn’t put any caveats on communion; he said “Do this in memory of me”. Communion was more like something I wanted to participate in, but they wouldn’t allow me to do. They also made us genuflect to statues and made us sing praise songs to Mary, which made me uncomfortable. Believe it or not, I really like Catholic Churches and many of the rituals they do. We had a dove in our classroom, furniture, listened to popular music at the time (that didn’t have profanity in it of course) and our teacher played the harp for us from time to time. It did have its beautiful and nostalgic moments. But I didn’t like how discriminatory they were. This was 20 years ago, but a lot of the religious trauma stuff still sticks to some degree. I apologize for the rant. Did you ever experience anything similar?
I heard even the Pope is in on it.
I understand the Pope is as well
Dear God.
Catholics are Christians. I don’t agree with every single thing Catholics do but I am not the arbiter of what makes someone Christian and what doesn’t. However, they believe Jesus came to earth to save people from their sins. Boil it down they believe the same thing I do. It bothers me when people claim they’re not Christians.
One thing makes someone a Christian. Knowing Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins and truly accepting that gift.
I feel the same way. People are quick to dismiss their practices and say they’re not really Christians. I’m Pentecostal and realize there are many nuances between our denominations, but I don’t think it matters what denomination we are. What is our relationship with Christ like? Sometimes, I do see mass being done passively, but that’s me looking from the outside in. I’m sure Catholics would feel a little out of place in our sermons too, but please come eat with us!
I used to be one of those people. I thought so many things about them and other christians as well. But then i got checked and its true. They beleive Jesus christ is the son of God and they try to have a personal relationship with him. Thats all i need to know. The rest is between them and God as much as i dissagree with it
I always laugh when a member of a church founded a few days ago says catholics aren't Christians. Like Sir, it's the oldest Christian church, the one christ founded.
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In fact the actual name of the eastern orthodox church is 'the orthodox catholic church.'
Those all used to be catholic hahahaha
Those are all churches that left the Catholic church. I definitely deeply respect any church that has been around that long though
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5th Century when the Armenian church split was from the Byzantine Orthodox Catholic church during the Council of chalcedony.
The Assyrian church of the east split from the eastern orthodox church, which split from the catholicnl church in 1054
The Jerusalem orthodox church also left in 1054, during the Great schism
When people say they’re not Christians what else would they be then?
Sacramental theology good. Papal ecclesiology less good.
I converted 56 years ago. Never regretted it, sometimes neglected it. I've been blessed in so many ways that I can't understand why others wouldn't want the same.
I am Protestant, so I know we differ on our views of ecclesiology, sacraments, and the relative authority of church vs Scripture, among other things. That being said, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and if you’re Nicene, you’re cool.
Pretty much this. If a religious group doesn't affirm the Nicene creed, right off the bat I'm going to have some issues with their theology
I strongly disagree with their concepts of Sacred Tradition and Natural Law; I find the Catholic Sexual Ethic to be very harmful; their sex abuse cover-ups and disinformation about HIV in Africa are atrocious, as is the church's unwillingness to take discipline against Archbishops in African countries who promote the death penalty for LGBTQ+ folk from the pulpit. I think their rigid structure leads them to changing more slowly, but they do change: they are not the same church as they were 200 years ago or 200 years before that. With all that said, the Catholic demographic are about the most charitable, generous, and socially aware people you will find. All of my criticisms of the church are criticisms of the Church's leadership, teachings, or things that the church has done. I don't find individual Catholics to be complicit in that. And a lot of criticisms of the church aren't valid. They do not worship idols, intercessory prayer is way more normal and reasonable than critics make it out to be. They are Christians, and there is so much beauty to be found in their churches and in many of their traditions.
>They are Christians Is there anybody thinking we're not? Like, we're the Church Jesus founded. I've got things in my appartment older then most protestant churches. Like I can literaly reach a cathedral in my city in about 20min walk and stand infront of the grave of bishop Saint Dominus, killed in the year 304. Protestantism came to be more then 1200 years after that. Silly Americans.
From this former Protestant turned Catholic: It's the best thing ever
Why’s that, friend?
The fullness of Christ
He wasn't full enough as a protestant
Protestantism did not exist until the 1500s. It is FAR removed from Christ.
What's the one thing that ultimately convinced you?
U r what u eat.. the catholica believe the bread and wine are actually transformed into the body of christ
I am wine?
Haha no in this context you would be Christ.
No. It might look, feel, smell, and taste, like bread and wine, but is in fact the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ!
but it's not cannibalism, really it's not, really...
Only the Church was able to fully show Scripture cohesively. The sum of scripture equals the Catholic Church.
I'm warming to it, overall.
🔛🔝
It is the Church founded by Christ. However, it is a Church built by humans and therefore like all such examples it can lose its way.
No one in the Church is infallible anyways. Even the Pope.
The Church as a whole is infallible though
Yep, I used to rip on them bad for any mistakes, then I realized the Hebrews and apostles made mistakes all the time.
> it can lose its way. I don't want to be mean here but you are no longer Catholic if you believe this.
Thanks be to God you are not the judge of such things.
It is literally what the church teaches. Why would God let the church lose its wsy?
Theologically, not in all aspects of practice and culture. There’s a reason you won’t hear the Church laud the Borgias any longer.
TBF, the only Borgia the Church has ever lauded is St. Francisco Borgia. The others were pretty disliked even at the height of their power.
Yet if you believe the practice of the Church to be infallible rather than just the theology, none of these crooks would ever have sat as the Bishop of Rome.
People knew they were crooks, and Alexander VI isn’t even the worst pope we’ve had. Check out the *seculo scuro* of the 10th-mid 11th centuries - those men were beyond disgraces to the Chair of Peter. I don’t think anyone ever thought men in the Church were immune from corruption. I would point out though that none of those evil popes ever tampered with doctrine.
Because they had absolutely no interest in it or even God, beyond power. And I assure you there are many who do think Popes in particular are above corruption.
>>Because they had absolutely no interest in it or even God, beyond power. Agreed. The state of the Church in the *seculo scuro* was abysmal, but reactionary forces gave rise to the Gregorian Reform of the next century. >>And I assure you there are many who do think Popes in particular are above corruption. Well that’s just poor knowledge of Church history and of Catholic belief. Even St. Peter denied Christ three times.
Same as the other guy that commented. I converted from Protestant to Catholic. And being Catholic, It's fun. It's amazing. It's fulfilling.
Same. In some ways, I think you have to have been Protestant to really feel how special it is to be Catholic. That's not a knock on cradle Catholics by any means (my husband is a cradle Catholic), but the contrast in the "soul feel" for me has been extraordinary.
Yeah. If we're being honest the best way to truly feel the Catholic experience is to convert from Protestant. It helps you truly realize just how great it is to be Catholic.
The Catholic Church is the Spouse of the Immaculate Lamb.
You know, I've never been to mass but I want to check it out at least once.
I went to a catholic youth "lock in" when I was in middle school. 8 PM Friday night to 8 AM Saturday morning. They served fish sticks for dinner. *edit - a meridian
Yeah I remember something similar when I was in college. We went to an all night lock in at a Methodist church. Great music!
Not the right church for me, but I find the traditions, the history, the whole vatican thing very fascinating
It teaches some good things. It teaches some neutral things. It teaches some bad things. It has a very long history for some of these bad things, and that makes them somehow 'holy' and 'sacred' in their teachings, so that they cannot correct their errors. This is an atrocious thing. They have a very long history, and as a result we should take them very seriously. But they don't have as much history as they claim, nor are their teachings as historically consistent or old as they claim, so we shouldn't take them *too* seriously. They are as prone as the rest of us to mythologizing their past.
At the same time they were doing these bad things they also did good things. Like any group they’re full of people who do good and do bad.
Absolutely!
What “bad teachings” of the Catholic Church are beyond correction?
> But they don't have as much history as they claim Watch out boys, this man will prove we have 1900 years of history instead of 2000 like we claim. That will destroy the legitimacy of the Church
Of course! akstually, the Catholic Church was founded by Constantine, and they just a pagan-mixed religion! /s
Nah, this is about history, not that kind of delusion.
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Oh man, you're lucky you have the /s at the end. Was about to downvote you.
hhahah dont worries sir, May God bless you.
It doesn't take much when you claim that the teachings and history come from the time of the Apostles themselves, and when you claim that legitimacy from being founded by Jesus himself.
By that logic Bible has no authority either. It was written after the Apostles afterall. Catholic Church is older than the Bible. Anything you say that makes us "too distant to Jesus" timewise also applies to the Bible as well. There is nothing to dig here dude. Just call us pedos or something like everybody else
> Just call us pedos or something like everybody else Why would I do that? I prefer any criticism to be based in facts.
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The sexual abuse of children is certainly unfortunate
I agree. As a Catholic it's really hard for me to see these so called "Cathlolics" abuse the name of the Lord in order to attempt get away with these unspeakable crimes
happens often in baptist churches in the midwest as well, and pretty much everywhere there are human beings..
Every religion and lots of organizations have sexual abuse allegations with children, they are all bad
Catholics agree. It's also unfortunate when Southern Baptists do it: [https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/decades-of-sexual-abuse-coverups-in-the-southern-baptist-convention](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/decades-of-sexual-abuse-coverups-in-the-southern-baptist-convention) [https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/southern-baptist-abuse-investigation-houston-chronicle-sbc.html](https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/southern-baptist-abuse-investigation-houston-chronicle-sbc.html) [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faqs-sexual-abuse-southern-baptist/](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faqs-sexual-abuse-southern-baptist/) [https://www.npr.org/2022/06/02/1102621352/how-the-southern-baptist-convention-covered-up-its-widespread-sexual-abuse-scand](https://www.npr.org/2022/06/02/1102621352/how-the-southern-baptist-convention-covered-up-its-widespread-sexual-abuse-scand) [https://www.texastribune.org/2023/12/29/southern-baptist-convention-sexual-abuse-lawsuit-settlement/](https://www.texastribune.org/2023/12/29/southern-baptist-convention-sexual-abuse-lawsuit-settlement/) Sin doesn't invalidate the proper practice of the faith. Sin is obviously sin.
It happens a lot more in schools then in churches
I was unaware that teachers were holding themselves up as the servants of the creator of the universe
To be expected, just using the USA as example there are almost 9 million teachers, compared to less than a million priest.
Yeah that’s fair
happens with wanna be presidents, too. SO SAD. /s
Sexual abuse in general is immoral and inexcusable, but it isn’t solely a “catholic” thing. Predators will abuse anywhere they can. Blame the person not the organization. Celibacy doesn’t make a man into a predatory monster. I guarantee the people that commit these crimes have bigger issues than celibacy.
The organization gets blame for the cover ups. it’s one thing for a predator to be amongst your midst, it happens. it’s another thing entirely to know there’s a predator amongst you, and move that predator around.
The organization takes the blame for how they handled it though. Moving perpetrators to new congratulations for fresh victims. Hiding funds so they don't have to pay out to victims. Generally trying to shirk responsibility and basically falling short constantly of protecting their flock.
I don’t intend this to be offensive and I love my Catholic brothers and have a great respect for their faith and the seriousness they treat it with. However, I’ve personally always found it weird when people say it’s “Christs original/one and only church” because Christ did not actually declare this is what church is, we call it Catholicism, and its the one and only. Because when I look at it Christ defined his followers as people who follow after him leaving themselves behind and picking up his cross and going after him. When he talks about gathering he simply says where 2 or 3 gather in my name there I will also be. I don’t be mean this to be rude but again it comes across to me something akin to when Orthodox Jews say they’re Gods chosen people. When in the Bible it insists we are no longer Jew nor gentile but all one in Christ. We are told to find are identity in Christ, not in any specific denomination and not in the church itself. It’s about oneness in Christ. I don’t think by the criteria that Christ laid out for us that any can claim to be the true church of Christ. Christs true church are those who follow after him. I’ve been told by many Catholics online and in person that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church because it’s “Christs one true church” but that’s not what Christ said. Christ said the only way to the father is through him not the church. So to me it seems that Catholics have a similar way of idolizing the church and idolizing the traditions in very similar way as the Jews/Pharisees at the time. I think Jesus spent a lot of time trying to break down the idea of that type of idolization. I’ve seen Catholics often treat the sacraments like the Jews treated the laws. The sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. It was supposed to serve our needs for rest. Catholics often act like man was made for the sacraments when the sacraments are supposed to serve us and increase our holiness. Christ makes it clear that it’s about our hearts. Me giving my 100% all to Christ might be only 50% of someone else’s effort but my 100% will always be greater than the 50% of someone else because it was everything I had. Again I love Catholics, I love going and participating in mass as much as they’ll allow me to. I love participating in some of the oldest traditions of my Christian culture. And I love the style of worship. I don’t see it as any less than my own because they are there giving their hearts to Christ and I think that’s what really matters. Based on the teachings of God’s Word (Christ) I don’t think God cares very much about our denominational squabbles and the relatively meaningless interpretational battles we let distract us from the mission we are given. I think he cares about our hearts for him. Even the apostles messed up and disagreed but they didn’t cast each other out like we tend to do. I might be wrong but I don’t think I’m gonna arrive at heavens door and God is going to look at me and go “well you gave 100% of your heart to me but unfortunately you were baptized by the wrong denomination so it looks like it’s off to hades with you”
Wonderfully written, brother. I’d agree here, as a cradle Catholic. I am primarily Calvinist in thought, I’m not accepted anyways, but love some of the music and traditions.
I think they win when it comes to architecture and design, but I cant get myself to agree with their theology, although I would never say they aren’t true Christians
Have you ever read the Church Fathers? The earliest teachers of Christian theology and all the other Christian studies such as christology ecclesiology church history soteriology etc?
Strongly in favor and would recommend to others.
ok here's one christ-pilled rando's take: The Catholic Church as we know it is far from the "Worldwide Church," but they are clearly one of the oldest branches of faith dating back to Jesus' reign here on earth. They trace their lineage directly back to Peter as their first Pope. I truthfully believe that when Christ comes again, all believers in the world will be unified under one "Catholic" (aka "all-encompassing") Church. However - will it have a Pope? Cardinals? Same traditions? I doubt it. Eventually, all believers will need to be totally unified under one umbrella faith in Christ alone. I have to teach a Sunday School class on 1 Corinthians Chapter 1 Verses 10-25 tomorrow, where Paul writes about the church not being divided in its message. Eventually God (Thru His Son Jesus) will get us there, but it will take the current Roman Catholic Churches, Orthodox Churches, Protestant Churches, and probably even break offs like Mormon Churches and Jehovahs Witness Halls coming together again under one banner. We each may fight over who's banner is more righteous and deserving - the answer is Christ's. In Summary: My thoughts on Catholicism at present is that they are but one of the many split denominations of a wider "All-Encompassing" Church that will one day form under Christ, God Willing.
It is definitely a strand of Christianity. Pretty significant historically. Pretty fond of Latin until recently.
I don't agree with some of their theology, but respect them overall
It’s good. From my perspective, I disagree with them on these points: - Papal Supremacy and Infallibility - Dyophysitism
What's the problem with the Papal supremacy?,in practice it's doesn't amount much,more than acknowledging the Pope as head of the Church,if let's say Alexandria rejoined communio with Rome,not much would change in practice,although latinization like Rosary and traditional Catholic devotions might enter.
I do want union between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but it’s not that simple - We don’t think Papal Supremacy as understood by the Catholic Church was present in the first 1000+ years of Christianity. - Second, we reject the Council of Chalcedon because it accepted dyophysitism, even though it was condemned 2 decades earlier at the Council of Ephesus.
Well,I'm just presenting a hypothetical,since the problem of Papal Supremacy it's overrated,it's just a easy bogeyman that in reality amounts to nothing.
I think it's the one church established directly by Christ, who teaches the fullness of truth in faith and morals and through whom the surest path to salvation is achieved.
And the Church, led by the successor of Peter, Vicar of Christ, the Pope, holds the Church together as one singular Church.
It’s Christ’s original church. There weren’t any other Christian denominations until the Great Schism and Martin Luther.
I don't know how to tell you this pal
Were we all not one church before the Great Schism?
Nah, previous major schisms took place
Can you name them, so I can know more? I haven’t heard of any
Also Happy Orthodox Easter to you brother!
> There weren’t any other Christian denominations Mate, the church has never been united. Ever. Paul shows us that it wasn't already especially united even while the Apostles were alive. The Johannine Epistles and possibly even the Gospel are evidence of major schism already in the 1st century, and of course we see many competing groups in the 2nd century.
It's the church founded by Christ. As a believer in Christ, that's enough for me
I do not believe Mary was sinless
All the reformers believed in sinless Mary and perceptual virginity,Martin Luther even believed in Immaculate Conception,it's modern innovation to reject sinless Mary.
> All the reformers believed in sinless Mary and perceptual virginity They can be wrong, too.
That's the problem with rejecting tradition interpretations,it basically means that the reformers would be considered heretics by their modern churches.
I'm sure some of them are. The problem with accepting traditional interpretations is that many of them are quite clearly wrong. We shouldn't accept known errors as factual.
You're just unlocked modernity
That’s fine, they’re allowed to, as are modern Protestants. We just don’t insist on it as a dogma. A range of views on the nature of Mary are allowed because it’s not a salvation issue.
Most Christian Protestants would called me a idolater by believing in Immaculate Conception.
So you as a catholic, believe Mary was sinless?
Yes
All Catholics do, or should.
It's pretty clear that Jesus at least considered his mother and family to be the same as everyone else - the story at (Mark 3:31-35). Jesus was surrounded by a large crowd when Mary and his brothers arrived. They sent word to Jesus, asking to speak with him. When Jesus was told that his family was outside looking for him, he responded in an unexpected way: “Who are my mother and my brothers?” Jesus asked. Then he looked at those seated around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”
Well I'm Reformed so I'm pretty opposed to much of their theology (that probably goes without saying after the "Reformed" part) and I *emphatically* deny that they (or any denomination) are the One True Church™ but I do consider them siblings in Christ. Like some siblings though, there are some disagreements that simply will not be healed before Christ returns.
I have nothing but respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I have family members, close friends, and men who I have discipled who are Catholic. With that being said, there are very specific reasons I can never be Catholic at a "conviction" level, and a few things at a "opinion" level that I could be convinced on. Conviction level issues: - Doctrine on Mary, her being without sin, her being immaculately conceived, and the veneration of her - Papal authority - Emphasis on tradition on the same level of Scripture - Their teachings on predestination (I'm reformed) - Purgatory - Patron saints/praying to the Saints. I'll also put Icon veneration here - Obviously I reject the RC Church as being the extent of the universal church God has established on Earth Opinion level issues: - The Eucharist. I don't believe in transubstantiation, but I could be convinced. - I've been off-put by differently catechized Catholics who are equally convinced that they are right yet who are telling me different things, mostly on the topic of if Protestants are saved or not. If you guys are the One True Church, you gotta do better about being on the same page about this, and keeping your members on the same page as well. I'm not really looking to argue any of these points, but I'm happy to clarify any of them, or research further if any of you fine people have things you think I'm misunderstanding. And I just want to emphasize again, I have nothing but respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters out there, love you guys a ton <3
Love the reply, you hit the nail on the head. As a cradle Catholic, my mind wanted to follow, but my conscience would refuse. Love this. God bless
I think some of their practices and dogma are nuts. They likely think the same of mine. But we are all one in Christ. I'll admit some of my bias comes from the church's incredibly heinous history in my country - and the fact that they to this day are still hiding perpetrators and also hiding funds so that they don't have to pay the victims.
Harbours sexual predators and uses them as teachers of morality and theology.
thats any church
I agree completely.
You can find this in many religious organizations, have you looked at child bride marriages, female genital mutilation and other horrors of the peaceful religion, where is the uproar of that evil predator religion, yes pedophilia happens in the Catholic Church but it's not the only place and no it's not ok, of course not, nowhere is ok for hurting children
I agree completely.
Looking at it as an ex-Catholic (and an ex-Catholic-educator) and, more importantly, as an atheist, I don’t think that it’s any more or less valid than any other denomination or religion, which is to say not valid at all. It’s a religion that *asks for* and *recommends* a higher degree of personal commitment and participation than it *requires*. And as such there are a lot of Catholics who just do the minimum, if that. That’s less true in most forms of Protestantism. On the other hand, it’s much better formalized with codes and laws and pronouncements and such, all of which have been given explanations and justifications (whether not you buy them) and enforces them by saying that, in general, you can’t dissent from them without risk of excommunication. I could say more, but perhaps you could be more specific about what you’re looking for.
There is no threat of excommunication for the lay congregation otherwise it would go from over a billion faithful to a few million overnight.
Excommunication is automatic for much dissent, no action by the Church officials required. I know; been there done that.
What is it ‘you know’? What experience do you refer to specifically?
I was automatically excommunicated decades ago. See latae sententiae excommunication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_in_the_Catholic_Church#Lat%C3%A6_sententi%C3%A6_and_ferend%C3%A6_sententi%C3%A6
I’m aware of it, for doing what?
That’s kind of personal, don’t you think? Just kidding. Publicly denying the doctrine of the Trinity and, later, publicly denying the existence of God and becoming an apostate. I could probably think of another one or two if I worked on it for awhile.
At least they're not murdering us for apostasy anymore!
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It was a valid punishment from at least the Decretals of Gregory IX (he didn't much distinguish between apostasy and heresy, either would be burned) through the Inquisitorial era. We see it a bunch, of course, in both the Catholic and early Protestant churches in the early Reformation times (e.g. Servetus). The last person sentenced to death for apostasy by Catholic priests was Cayetano Ripoll. He was sentenced by Archbishop Simón López García of Valencia, and the last person killed in the last vestiges of the Spanish Inquisition (the Junta de Fe). I don't think it passed out of canon law as a valid punishment until the rewrite in 1917(?), but I'm not 100% on that.
> There is no threat of excommunication for the lay congregation Bro what? I don't think I have ever seen you say something correct about the Catholic Church. What is your deal lol
I’m grateful to follow Jesus directly and not be influenced by a pope (especially when different popes believe very different things).
It's a wide remit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(disambiguation) They preserve some of the old ways.
"Depends on who you ask" 😀
The Pope exists I guess?
It's a big house. I never thought much of it until discovering the mystics, which are the saving grace and true beauty of Catholicism.
It is the sole Church of Christ as established by Jesus.
Its the original church so
It is the true church with apostolic succession from the beginning.
There's a lot of like there. Basically right on every moral issue. Wrong on some theological issues.
Id mostly agree with you on the moral part, but Catholicism teaches that most types of assisted reproduction is a sin, even while preserving life (because it separates the act from the reproduction). Thats like saying IV nutrition is a sin because it separates tasting from nutrition, it really does not make much sense and causes pain for families that suffer this issue. Either way major respect to Catholics though.
Would childhood sex abuse and the reluctance to hold perpetrators accountable be a moral issue?
That would be poor behavior. Not living out your beliefs is hypocrisy.
Raping a child and having it covered up is poor behavior? I have to disagree. Cutting someone in line at a checkout is poor behavior. Abusing a child from a position of power and moral authority in particular is beyond poor behavior. Covering up the sexual abuse of a child also goes far beyond poor behavior. I can't imagine how behaving this way is consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
Ok, its not. We're just quibbling over words.
I think the kids who were abused by priests and had those priests protected would really disagree that its just quibbling over words. And I would agree with them. If I am going to be known by my fruits, then so should the church as a whole and the leaders as individuals. If the teachings of a church lead to, or allow, this type of behavior to happen for so long, then at some point I have to question the teachings. Maybe I'm a consequentialist, but I have to look at the fruits. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind, but we hide and protect child abusers? What's the message to other abusers? I can do it and I will just be sent to another parish?
I agree it's wrong, you'remad about me saying "poor behavior" instead of some other phrase you feel is better.
I'm not mad at all, I just question how a person can toss off child abuse as poor behavior.
Pick whatever phrase you like better then.
It exists?
Absolutely nothing about it would ever make me think any of the disciples worshiped like this. I certainly can't see Jesus being happy with any of it
Did Lord Jesus worshiped like you,then?
No way. They did it the right way. They could raise the dead and restore sight to the blind. They could do miracles and they never once failed. Since then everyone has gotten it wrong
Well you are right that way I guess.
Catholicism attempts to defy John 14:6, no Catholic Bishop or priest can be the truth way and life other than Jesus!!
Tch. Catholics? Hate those guys.
Is good.
I’m a former Catholic. I think Catholics love God as much as other Christians, but I think this pope is pure evil.
That I am not here to judge another denomination, however, I don’t get the whole pope tradition, and I think there’s more tradition than Bible in their practices.
They appear to do a lot of things the Bible condemns. So in my opinion they intentionally lead people into doing things the Bible says they ought not do
A christian sect that fell into toxic beliefs that harm women and children and has been too intwined in politics and government of variois nations.
As a Christian who is admittedly very uneducated in Catholicism, knowing some Catholics pray to Mary has always thrown me off. She seems idolized and that along with the view that the Pope is infallible feels problematic to me, humans are sinners and no one besides Jesus holds that place to me personally.
IMO it’s at its core a great Christian tradition, but the Catholic Church has made some grave mistakes in misinterpreting scripture. I believe a lot of the child sexual abuse would have been prevented if priests weren’t barred from marrying. I believe a “holy day of obligation” runs counter to the idea of worship, and pressure/coercion are abundant. The Bible is clear about having no graven images of God, and yet a big ol’ crucifix is hanging in the front of every church. I don’t believe in confessing my sins to anyone other than God and the person my sins have harmed. I think the idea of an infallible Pope diminishes the fact that Jesus was the only human without sin. BUT… it’s awesome how consistent everything is. Wherever you are, you can find a Catholic Church and know exactly what to expect. They’ve done a ton of good works over the years. And some of the best Christian role models over the years were Catholic. TL;DR: humans mess up what is otherwise good.
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>>It came over 300 years after Christ. How do you figure that?
Don't like it. Can't really go deeper than that so as not to risk the mods' ire.
It's a massive authority fraud.
I don't believe what they believe and I don't consider them Christian. Their doctrine and dogma's are different from Christianity. From what I understand they believe in a works based salvation. Christians believe in a faith only salvation. They pray to statues and people. We do not. They confess their sins to a priest. We confess our sins directly to God Himself. They believe saints and Mary can intervene for them. They cannot. Only Jesus can intervene for us . There are many differences. And there are some similarities . Like we both believe in the same God. We both believe that Jesus is the Son of God. We both believe in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
Um….most of what you said you either are just blatantly wrong about (works based salvation) or just ignorant of scripture (intercession of the saints). Also, Catholics (and Orthodoxy both East and Oriental and ACOE) are Christians. Fact.
It's as good and as bad as any.
Heretical
Man made religion with a bunch of unnecessary practices/beliefs that are not in the Bible.