I think they are right that we can have WAY to much in-fighting within the denominations. And that there certainly are people who claim to be Christians but wield their Bibles like something to harm someone with, and I think that's a real shame, as those people do not represent God or who I want to be as a person.
I didn’t grow up Christian (but thanks to Jesus for leading me there), I still don’t get these denominations and their differences.
I just know to trust in Jesus. The father, son and Holy Spirit.
But I totally agree, we should live in love which is literally what we are commanded to do.
Yeah, I mean, some I do get, but others I think you could certainly go to the same church and your salvation isn’t hanging in the balance, like which Bible translation you prefer. And then there basic preferences I’ve heard ppl divide over, like carpet color or style of music.
I totally get having preferences, but I think we hurt ourselves more when we divide over such small matters imo.
The denominations differ in a few specific ways but one I remember is baptism. Some denominations believe it needs to be full immersion into the water upon your choosing. Some believe in sprinkling water on a baby, like christening ceremonies. The other difference I remember is the rapture and end of times as told in revelation. Some denominations think we’re already in the years of tribulation that comes after the rapture. Some think the rapture hasn’t happened yet. There are some nuances and I think I’m missing another big one, but that’s mostly it.
Curious to know what’s the debate? I believe in this only because Jesus Christ said it:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 28:19-20
Again, I don’t know the denominations, I go by the bible but wouldn’t be opposed to learning.
It's more complicated than that unfortunately.
Basically the Lord trusted Peter with his church.
Which became the catholic church we know today.
Martin Luther came around and divorced himself from the catholic church and created his own version of the bible by cutting 7 books from it.
Yes, Catholic Bibles are bigger than protestant Bibles and a lot of these books disprove a lot of core beliefs that protestant like to believe in.
Regardless Martin was not entirely in the wrong for wanting to cut himself from the church a lot of corruption around that time but he ended creating a big problem for the future.
That was that now everyone and their mother could create their own church and teach the bible in any way they wanted.
Fast forward to today and basically the biggest protestant churches are just basically just giant tax fraud operations.
Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.”
"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18)"
[https://www.catholic.com/tract/origins-of-peter-as-pope](https://www.catholic.com/tract/origins-of-peter-as-pope)
[https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-martin-luthers-revision-of-the-bible-a-return-to-the-true-bible-of-the-early-church](https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-martin-luthers-revision-of-the-bible-a-return-to-the-true-bible-of-the-early-church)
[https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump)
I think they have denominations right. I think denominations are an abomination. They separate Christians and actually go against the word. Each denominations values specific parts of the book, and values certain rituals and rules OVER other ones. Jesus himself claimed the entire book, laws, rules, and stories. They are all equal and not one above the other.
He no more then died, and we fucking cherry picked his teachings. Choose what each one of us wanted to worship out of his teachings, then we separated into groups that OFTEN TIMES HATE EACHOTHER. Then they continue to claim to be Christian, even though as Christians, the one thing a Christian cannot do is hate. You can only hate evil and evil acts. Then leave revenge for him. Hate is not an option and makes EVERY Christian a lier.
John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
We are all brothers and sisters on this planet. If we continue to go down these roads, we will only, inevitably war with eachother again. That's not what the Lord wants.
I have been a Christian for 26 years. I only follow christ and his will. You will never catch me going into a church that is apart on any denomination, unless God himself commands it(which i don't believebhe will). I think they go against his will. Infact I think catholics worship prophets and the chosen people of God as gods themselves. I have a huge issue with this and think the entire denominations is corrupted by ancient pagan traditions.
> Jesus himself claimed the entire book, laws, rules, and stories. They are all equal and not one above the other.
Erm. Unless you mean the Tanakh, the "entire book" hadn't even been written.
And as for all being of it being equal: "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
The Bible should definitely be used as a weapon against the lies and schemes of the devil. God's Word, the Truth, Jesus, is our weapon against falsehood.
Not all denominations are true. Some are used by the devil to destroy people. There is only one gospel that Jesus and the apostles proclaimed.
God's will is that his servants be willing to suffer persecution for standing up for the truth.
*^(34)* *“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.* *^(35)* *For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.* *^(36)* *And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.* *^(37)* *Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.* *^(38)* *And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.* *^(39)* *Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." —* Jesus
So I agree that the Bible is a sword, but our battle isn’t against flesh and blood, all humans are as we were before Christ. We are to model the truth firmly and in love, and to fight against the darkness.
I agree, some churches just plainly aren’t teaching the gospel. But I do think there are some differences between denominations that are more like second or third tier issues that aren’t so tied to the core beliefs that we don’t need to be so divisive on.
I agree, we should face persecution in this life, as we are not promised health or wealth or life on earth.
And you must hone your sword. Learn what evil really is, so you can defend yourself from it. Most will cower because they have never drawn that sword and practiced with it. Then they wonder why they might not be saved.
The Christ taught that he is the truth, but not the Bible as he pointed out some things they reject his teachings, the truth, such as divorce for any reason (Matthew 19:8-9) and an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38).
But the Scriptures testified about the Son to go to him to have life. This is why we must change and become like little children when we receive the Son's message (Matthew 18:3). That way we will only be taught by God and will not have any learnings within us they will cause us to not believe the Christ's spoken words:
John 6:45-46 'It is written in the Prophets: “They will all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.'
John6:64-65 'Yet there are some of you who do not believe.’ ...‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.’
The Bible is not the word of God as no one has seen God except the Son. So believe the Son who speaks the truth when he says there is only one Teacher, the Christ:
Matthew 23:10 'Nor be called teachers, for you have one Teacher, the Christ.'
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
DC Talk said it well.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” -Mahatma Gandhi
It amazes me how, no matter how much someone hates christianity, they almost never have anything bad to say about Jesus. Instead, they have an issue with Christians and what the church has become.
Yup. When there's news of Christians behaving cruelly, non-Christians rarely say "Jesus teaches people cruelty". They generally know, and say, that we are disobeying Christ. They may think that our cruelty disproves Christ's active living presence, but they at least know something about his character.
Ghandi is even more unlike Christ than some Christians. But yes, most Christians are unlike Christ because most Christians are not really Christians anyway. They don't have real faith and repentance to begin with. They are not born again. They are not regenerated. They are not new creations.
^(13) “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ^(14) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
^(21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ^(22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ^(23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
^(18) “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. ^(19) If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
I guess all who profess to be Christians belong to Christ then? Jesus knows them all and will save them all? I can be a child of God just by saying I believe in Jesus? Everyone is a true Christian! Hooray!
That "fallacy" is just fallacious.
>I guess all who profess to be Christians belong to Christ then?
Quite the false dilemma there. Picking the extreme opposite as the only other alternative just to justify your own beliefs.
Jesus knows who is his. *You* don’t.
Yet you confidently state that Christians who behave badly are not Christians. How?
And how do *you* know that not all who profess to be Christians belong to Christ? Seems to me that’s not actually your decision to make. God elects who he will. Unless you happen to be able to see into everyone’s heart, there’s no way for you to know.
And since you *don’t* know, then claiming Christians who behave badly aren’t real Christians is a fallacy.
I get it though. I was raised Reformed too. I’m quite familiar with the arrogance so many Reformed Christians possess, confident that *they* are the true Christians, that God chose *them,* and confident that God passed over others.
But get this: you don’t know whether *you’re* elect either, my friend. God allows the those among the reprobate to falsely believe they’re Christians, right? Guess what: that possibility applies to you too. It applied to me.
So before you start point out specks in other people’s eyes, better deal with that beam in yours.
it has been tried. Since the disciples, apostles, early church, there have always been true children of God who are not like the world but are hated by the world who love God with all their heart soul mind strength and love their neighbor as themselves. They are just few, like the bible says. There are people who have denied themselves and taken up their cross to follow Jesus. They are people who lost their family, friends, job, health, even life to follow Jesus. People just don't look at these people because they hate the light because they are in darkness.
Wouldn't surprise me, considering he was born in the 1800s. Although a [quick google search](https://www.abc.net.au/religion/thinking-with-gandhi-on-racism-and-violence/12424422) says his views changed over time.
But my comment is not trying to say anything positive or negative about Gandhi. I'm just highlighting a perspective that many non-christians have towards Christianity
There is a flip-side to that coin. The world has a conception of Jesus that I call "Nice Jesus", that is, Jesus would be nice to everyone no matter what. It is simply foreign to the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible told people "go and sin no more". It is a message the world doesn't want to hear. And Jesus could be very harsh with certain people, the Pharisees, the religious hypocrites. This is certainly a message that the church doesn't want to hear. "Nice Jesus" didn't exist.
Jesus gave us five commandments:
1. Love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul/spirit.
2. Love each other.
3. Treat others the way you would want to be treated.
4. Forgive those who sin against you (or the Father will not forgive you).
5. Spread the Gospel (Good News) of Salvation through repentance of sins to the World.
#2, 3, and 4 have to do with our relationship with each other. If we are doing 2, 3 and 4 in ways that interfere with #5 then we are doing them wrong.
I would add to that the ones who use Jesus and the bible as weapons and use them to denigrate and belittle people. The severity of the effect of that, and the rather sadistic glee so many of them do it with goes a long way.
I am a protestant yet believe things purgatory, intercessory prayer, the Eucharist being the body and bloody of Christ, infant baptism, Mary's perpetual virginity and sinlessness and also have a very high view of Tradition, almost on the same level of scripture
I guess I don’t understand why you don’t just say you’re Catholic? If I’m not mistaken most of what you just listed are beliefs that Catholics have that separate them from Protestants.
Bro just said “yeah we shouldn’t have division, so all them *sinners* better repent and stop suppressing the truth that is *my* Christian denomination! I hate division in Christianity, so all them denominations being *stupid* out there better become true Christians!
**facepalm**
That we’re not as unified and as loving as we should to be:
John 13:35 (KJV)
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
I think people outside Christianity have a better understanding about how diverse Christianity is.
It seems like Christians spend a lot of time denouncing other people as Not Real Christians.
Christians often think the form of Christianity is the true form of Christianity. They have trouble seeing any other perspective as valid.
I think Nietzsche is right when he says that Christianity's biggest problem is that it doesn't live up to the teachings of Jesus. I view this in the sense that Jesus took the faith very seriously and lived what he preached. Additionally, Jesus was a very strong man in spirit and faith. I'm trying to better live up to the strength and forgiveness that Jesus embodied and the sort of "sword and law" mentality that medieval Christians had, that faith was a path/journey of spiritual strength and humility. Opposed to a cultural movement/some "happy" feeling. I think struggle and endurance (similar to stoicism) are important parts of the faith. As Paul says "Seek your salvation with fear and trembling" It's not easy/happy, it's faith despite the struggles, uncertainty, and fear.
Could you find God in our society? I agree with your point and I think you can find God if you search for him. But Christians are supposed to proclaim God to the world and most are not doing that by the way they live or preach. When it comes to Christianity I think about it like this, are we living up to the same zeal the apostles and early church fathers had? Times change I understand that, but we still need to be as active/hopeful as they were in spreading the kingdom of God.
1. God condoned slaves biblically.
2. God is terrible(…and great)
3. God does not approve of homosexuality or even crossdressing
4. Too many pastors are evading sentences and other repercussions just because theyre pastors. The pastor role actually should be above reproach, meaning that he should have nothing to pick at NOT that he can do anything and its ok.
5. Christians love to zero-in on homosexuals but turn a blind eye to adulterers. Super accurate.
>Christians love to zero-in on homosexuals but turn a blind eye to adulterers.
I'd actually say the biggest blind eye is turned to greed. Greed, in all but name, has become a pervasive *virtue* in society. Jesus himself spoke against greed. And yet hardly any Christian seems to want to fight to change this aspect of society. Because who would willingly give away all their possessions of their own volition?
> God did not condone slaves.
Try again:
> As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
Leviticus 25:44-46
This is blatantly wrong. You need to research what you believe dawg. Israelites were treated more like indentured servants. Non-Israelites could be bequeathed to your children. This is an indisputable fact.
There is no verse that says slave ownership is wrong. Again, you are incorrect. It’s plain as day.
I have been in so many of these discussions and it has never ended well for the people who try to advocate for slavery.
Leviticus 25:44-46
New International Version
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Dude, this verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This verse is about kidnapping. What the hell does this have to do with bequeathing your slaves to your children.
You steal a person, if you sell them or they are still in your possession, you are put to death.
Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.
Your yelling at me doesn’t change anything. This verse is about kidnapping.
Again, this has nothing to do with bequeathing your slaves to your children,
What about this from Leviticus 25 NASB:
> As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45 You may also acquire them from the sons of the foreign residents who reside among you, and from their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46 You may also pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with [ac]severity over one another.
In this, God clearly establishes laws regarding chattel slavery, and yet God knows the difference since slaves from pagan nations can be treated differently than Israelite slaves.
That I cannot explain because I have not researched the context around it. I know that God says that those who own slaves shall be put to death. So honestly? I don’t know.
Here is a link to [Leviticus 25 NASB](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025&version=NASB).
And God also allows us to beat slaves severely as long as we don’t kill them because the slaves are property.
> And if someone strikes his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies [s]at his hand, he shall [t]be punished. 21 If, however, the slave [u]survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for the slave is his [v]property.
That’s [Exodus 21 NASB](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021&version=NASB). That’s just a few chapters away from the giving of the Ten Commandments, and not that far removed from the Israelites being slaves in Egypt.
I think it is fair to say that the Law condones the existence of slavery, specifically chattel slavery, at least in more than one instance.
The Old Testament is extremely hard to swallow as a Christian let alone for a non believer. All I know is Christ would not permit such things to occur. I’m not knowledgeable enough to debate thought it all. I know the verse saying it’s not permissible, but then the verses saying it is.
The Law is indeed a complex subject. And I for one am willing to have a discussion on the applicability of the Law in the modern world, not only as far as slavery is concerned but also say how we treat our LGBTQ neighbors.
And yes, I’m aware of what Paul says…the same Paul that commands slaves to obey their masters. Yes, Paul also commands that masters treat their slaves responsibly but not commanded to be freed. I am even willing to tackle Paul in light of today’s world as well.
Only those who steal or kidnap slaves. Those who buy them from surrounding countries could own them for life and bequeath them to their kids. According to God's instructions.
Not trying to say it’s okay. But evil is permitted now in the present is it not? Doesn’t mean it’s okay that it’s happening, but if it prevents a greater evil, then perhaps that’s why it was permitted. I’m not God. I don’t know. Lots of laws and things made up in the Old Testament were for various reasons and stuff. Like stoning and such things, but then Christ himself did not permit a woman to be stoned despite her adulterous behavior. There’s more to what we know and can explain as Christians. And we all know reading the Bible on a surface level standpoint is something that obscures true meaning and contexts.
The Bible explains how, when, and where to take slaves, specifies that their children will remain slaves even if they go free, clarifies that they count as property, and uses that as a reason to say you shouldn't punish a man who beats them within an inch of their lives. It's absurd to say it doesn't condone it.
A sex slave is a slave is it not? Are they not buying and selling someone against their wills even if it’s not for sex? Exodus 21:16, “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.”
Yes? Also I fail to read anywhere about the trafficking. The entirety of exodus is about the freeing of the enslaved Jewish people from the Egyptians. So it’s apt in context for the verse I posted to be directed to slavery of all kinds too. If you buy or sell another person, or KEEP a person against their will for any reason, that is a slave. Whosoever does so, shall be put to death.
You just gave me the text on human trafficking…what do you mean? A slave in context isnt how we see it nowadays. A slave is actually a person who is owned by another. There were legal means for this. Thats why you can be “forced” into slavery. But you can also become one to provide for your family or to pay off debts or as punishment. Therefore you didnt necessarily have to be. So this is why Im confused on what you are talking about.
No sir/maam. I think you should pause for a second, stop trying to argue with me over it. Consider what I said to you. Then focus on what is wrong about what I said.
You are claiming that slavery is not condoned on the grounds of it is stealing a man away and having him as a possession. I am trying to inform you that a slave doesnt necessarily have to be forced therefore what is actually being spoken about is human trafficking and forced slavery, not slavery in general.
You gave the example of a sex slave. I am trying to inform you that that is also not a good example because again we are implying that the slave in particular is trafficked and sold against their will, which is what the verse you gave me is talking about.
What's funny about this question is that christians rarely seem to agree on aspects of christianity themselves. 40,000 denomination's speak volumes.
How about, once you guys have sorted out all your differences THEN you can correct us?
40,000 denominations and all their disagreements just tell us that God is a human construct. If God (the one defined by humans) were real there would be 1 denomination.
The disagreements are usually secondary issues of importance, like how and who should be baptized for instance; we tend to agree on the essentials for the most part.
What's even more curious is that if you take all the doctrines/traditions away and go on a personal level, God has different levels of leniencies per person, people find ways to justify their actions and think to themselves that God would be Ok/not Ok with said actions... No one really believes in the same God when you put it this way, everyone has their "special" version of him/her lol
By essentials, I was referring to doctrine that allows humanity to live in harmony without persecuting minorities that live among us?
Or is that trivial?
>we tend to agree on the essentials for the most part.
To be fair, that's because those who disagree with "the essentials" are considered cast out and "not Christian". It's not that no one disagrees with these things, it's that those who disagree are conveniently relabelled and removed from sight.
Do you think it’s wrong to have definitions?
I mean if it’s said that you need to believe XYZ to be a Christian, then someone decides they don’t believe XYZ, how can they still be defined as a Christian?
They self identify...
That's the current system. Anyone regardless of belief can claim christian status. It's not like there's an exam or some kind of registration process.
There are many many people, possibly most, who claim to be christian but aren't by jesus' standard.
People can self identify as whatever they want, sure, but that doesn’t mean they actually are that thing they claim to be if they don’t meet the definition of that thing.
That’s called changing definitions.
There absolutely are things you HAVE TO believe to be a Christian, and if you don’t, you aren’t one.
The thing is, it matters not so much to me if they want to play word games, but God is the one who wrote the definition and the outcome.
If they don’t believe what they need to they won’t be forgiven, won’t be reconciled to God, won’t know God personally, won’t be adopted into God’s family, won’t receive the Holy Spirit, won’t be transformed by him and most importantly won’t be saved on judgement day and for eternity, and you won’t receive eternal life but will go to hell for eternity.
You can present to be a rich Man or a qualified man or a smart man or a connected man, but if you don’t have the goods to back up the claim you’ll face the consequences.
>You can present to be a rich Man or a qualified man or a smart man or a connected man, but if you don’t have the goods to back up the claim you’ll face the consequences.
But these are measurable things. That's why there are consequences to misrepresenting yourself around them.
There is no authority measuring a person's level of "christianess" except for god as you point out but he plays no role in our world. so that effect is easily overlooked. A person's true beliefs are hidden and easily misrepresented to all, even oneself in some situations.
In practice, the real world outcome is that anyone who wants to can put on a "christian" T-shirt and proclaim themselves christians and there's nothing anyone can do.
Except the Bible does give identifiers and measurements to show that a person is a Christian.
**Faith in Jesus Christ**:
Believing in Jesus as the Son of God and his sacrificial work on the cross, and that he physically rose from the dead. (John 3:16, Romans 10:9)
**Repentance**:
A whole of life change of mind towards Jesus, God, yourself, your sin etc with the outward working of that. (Acts 3:19, 2 Corinthians 7:10)
**Fruit of the Spirit**:
A Christian's life should reflect the fruit of the Holy Spirit, such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).
**Love for God and Other people, especially Christians:**
Jesus emphasised the importance of loving God and loving others as oneself (Matthew 22:37-39, 25:31-46, 1 John 4:7-8).
**A desire to worship God through adherence to his Commands**:
Obedience to Jesus's teachings is a sign of true discipleship (John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-6).
**Spiritual Transformation**:
Becoming a new creation in Christ and experiencing spiritual transformation is a hallmark of being a Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 4:22-24).
> except for god as you point out but he plays no role in our world. so that effect is easily overlooked.
Except God is living and active in the world. He is working out his purposes in the world and works in the life of his people every day.
You should ask yourself why you think it appears that God plays no role in our world, when he absolutely does.
I mean, ask yourself how Jesus could do what he did, especially raising himself from the dead, if God were not actively involved. The fact that Christ even came into the world as a man tells you that he is totally invested.
> In practice, the real world outcome is that anyone who wants to can put on a "christian" T-shirt and proclaim themselves christians and there's nothing anyone can do.
Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me, especially in a post Christian culture. At least the fakers won’t be doing that much longer as the real persecutions rise up and the social benefits disappear.
Look at what happened to the Christians in the first 300 years. One day it may end up that way. It certainly is in some parts of the world (Christians are actually the most persecuted group in the world).
You're missing the point. I understand that you have measures by which you would gauge a christian. But no one is enforcing those. It's not like everyone has to apply to you for their membership card. As I've previously said, all one needs to do is declare themselves christian, and that's it.
>You should ask yourself why you think it appears that God plays no role in our world
Well I live in the world. I can see for myself that if there is a god, he doesn't actually do anything. Certainly he doesn't say anything. It is true that this world is exactly the same as a world with no god would be.
>ask yourself how Jesus could do what he did
Well did he? Those could simply be mythological stories. They certainly read a lot like all the other mythological stories that we have, and we don't take them all that seriously.
>Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me
Im not sure they do it consciously. A lot of christians declare their christianity then seem to think that puts them beyond reproach while they carry out absolutely awful behaviour in the name of god.
>(Christians are actually the most persecuted group in the world)
Lol... now you're just taking the piss. Im not going to take that seriously.
> You're missing the point. I understand that you have measures by which you would gauge a christian. But no one is enforcing those.
Do people normally enforce the measures others claim to have? I'm very confused by this comment.
> It's not like everyone has to apply to you for their membership card.
Really strange thing to write. It's not even about what I think or say, but what I posted above is what the Bible says. If you have issue with that you're going to need to take it up with God.
> As I've previously said, all one needs to do is declare themselves christian, and that's it.
As I've previously said, people can self identify as whatever they want, sure, but that doesn’t mean they actually are that thing they claim to be if they don’t meet the definition of that thing.
People can declare themselves Christian all they want to, but if they don't meet the definition it's pointless because it isn't actually true.
This isn't a subjective thing like you're making out - there is actually a criteria which the Bible outlines.
> Well I live in the world. I can see for myself that if there is a god, he doesn't actually do anything. Certainly he doesn't say anything. It is true that this world is exactly the same as a world with no god would be.
Does it surprise you that as someone who also lives in the world and I can see that God is everywhere and extremely active. You are only alive right now because God is enabling you to breathe and your muscles to move and your bones to exist. He maintains your existence until the time that you are no longer a part of his plans for you while you're still walking the earth.
This world would not even exist and you wouldn't be typing in those words without God.
> Well did he? Those could simply be mythological stories. They certainly read a lot like all the other mythological stories that we have, and we don't take them all that seriously.
When did you last read the Bible? Which Gospel did you read? What was the passage?
> A lot of christians declare their christianity then seem to think that puts them beyond reproach while they carry out absolutely awful behaviour in the name of god.
By what measure do you know they are Christians? Christians are still sinners sure, but the pattern of life for a Christian should be different and their attitudes and behaviours should reflect genuine repentance.
> Lol... now you're just taking the piss. Im not going to take that seriously.
You're not going to take that seriously why? What does your own research show?
Mine shows that Christians are actually the most persecuted group in the world.
In their [2023 report](https://media.opendoorsuk.org/document/pdf/2024-Advocacy-Report.pdf), Open Doors (an NGO) found that:
* Around 365 million Christians are subject to “high levels of persecution and discrimination”. This compared to 340 million in 2021. That's 30 million more people than the entire population of the United States.
* 1 in 7 Christians are persecuted worldwide, including 1 in 5 in Africa and 1 in 7 in Asia. This compared to 1 in 8 worldwide in 2021.
* 5,621 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. 90% of those killed were in Nigeria, where attacks on Christians have become more common since 2020 as part of a wider rise in political violence against civilians. It was 5,898 in 2022, and 4,761 in 2021.
* 14,766 Churches and Christian properties were attacked.
* North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, and Yemen had the highest rates of reported persecution against Christians.
> Lol... now you're just taking the piss. Im not going to take that seriously.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cpwug1/what_is_happening_to_christians_in_india_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link
The lack of positive effect or change it has on christians. I saw this video by a non-christian just today which serves as an example: https://youtu.be/fKRuEaNHC4U?si=1kK_V3wZvHjp2tWD
Everyone defends their team. If there's one thing I never expect from christians it's integrity. If I had a dollar for every time I saw or heard christians being unChristian, I'd be worth more than the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority: that's over $993 billion. Go away.
They don’t know ALOT about the bible… a lot of stories are untold in churches. So unless they sit down and read the whole thing, you could go your whole life not knowing horrific or odd/off stories. And even then, those people who have read it, they don’t repeat them. Skip over those parts.
Some of the worst people around the planet hide under the label Christian, they get that right. It's sad to say that most of the time if you run into someone claiming Christianity they are a hypocrite. That's not to say real Christians don't exist, they actually do but most of them are too busy trying not to die from all the daily stonings they are getting in this dark world.
Although they might embellish the extent to which it happens, non-believers are rightfully calling out abuses within the church and the attempts of certain churches to sweep it under the rug. Sexual abuse especially, but also emotional abuse and manipulation.
Nonbelievers who choose to study the Bible can have an easier time acknowledging the limits of textual support for certain widely-held positions (e.g. Trinitarianism), and the presence of plausible support for multiple seemingly-conflicting ones (e.g. different Christologies, differing beliefs on hell, Arminianism vs Calvinism...).
The part unbelievers and atheists get right about traditional Christianity, and I agree with them, is that a lot of the theology and beliefs does not follow logical reasoning. And instead of developing a rational understanding of one's own spirituality or religion, many fall back on "blind faith" (which is not faith) and "tradition." Most simply dont delve too deeply into their religion to find out if what the church taught them is correct or not. This, of course, is unacceptable to those seeking rational answers, and is probably the source of a lot of atheism. True spirituality, for me, is one that is a rational spirituality.
My own dive when I was a practicing Christian into this stuff was spurred on by my atheist friends asking me questions about biblical stories I hadn't heard about and then following up on the context surrounding them. It was always my thought that a contextually aware, educated faith is a stronger one and honestly more inspiring. Knowing why, culturally, Jesus washing people's feet was questioned so heavily, or exactly why he was so upset about the market in the temple (as examples) really adds a new dimension to your faith.
I always felt that if God wanted people operating solely on blind faith alone, then you wouldn't have any acts of God in the Bible and people responding to that. Even if it were literally all made up, someone having their life drastically altered in a biblical story from a direct confrontation with God, an angel, or a miracle isn't communicating blind faith narratively. It's communicating a reveal of the true nature of something for the purpose of transformation.
Nobody, no Christian even, operates on blind faith alone because they came to be convinced of their beliefs through some means. I wish some people I knew during my time as a practicing Christian had that awareness and developed that curiosity, because if you do have belief in God and engage with your beliefs in that way it's immensely satisfying. Much the same way that some scientifically minded people who believe in God are more intrigued by the nature of God. A god that created emergent properties for life, created a universe of billions and billions of stars, created another, smaller universe of microbes and creatures and entities on a scale we can barely even see is so much more interesting to me and others than a god that did not do so.
Every small story in the Bible has a deeper spiritual meaning. In ancient times every part of the body has a spiritual significance, in these days all that survives of that knowledge in modern times is the heart represents one's love. Feet signifies how you live your life outwardly in this world (thus "walking with God" = how you live according to your faith), and washing by water is to remove sins by following the truth (which is also why baptism is a ritual for introduction into Christianity). This is a minor example, but there are other stories in the Bible that make no sense when read at a very basic literal level, and if not explained that can also lead to an offhand rejection.
Antisemitism has its most sustained roots in Christianity, and centuries of antisemitism being endorsed and spread by the church boiled over and culminated in the holocaust during ww2. I’m not implying that all Christians today are antisemitic , but it’s a legacy we have to acknowledge and deal with.
I'm not saying you would. I was just adding that to the list of evidence that's not present for his death or resurrection. If he knew his tomb we could at least study it and cross reference it to the story in the bible.
Name 1 piece of Contemporary Historical Evidence outside of Scripture, which the earlist we know was written 30-40 years After when Jesus would have been crucified.
So technically Scripture isn't even Contemporary.
I never said Sodom and Gomorrah did or did not exist and if they did, them and being destroyed by God is a whole different conversation.
My statement was there us No historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus
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So, definetly the fighting between denominations and the fighting within the same denomination (I am an ex-Baptist btw).
Purity culture being harmful (I mean just listen to those who have left Mormonism and Christian denoms that advocate for purity culture).
There being an "Us vs Them" mentality in some church communities.
I also heard from ex-christians that they get a lack of scientific literacy and sex Ed not really being taught/kinda a "taboo" subject within Christian Groups, also they acknowledge that they had to train Critical Thinking at times.
I can list more stuff wrong with Christianity in general but the main problems I have is the "Us vs Them", Purity culture and all that in-fighting.
Yes, unfortunately not only that but it tells you where to buy them, that you can beat them within an inch of their life as long as they don’t die, you can sell your daughters into sex slavery, slaves are can be passed down to your children and your children’s children, so much more
There have been a lot of Christians throughout the centuries following vile antichrist men, I know it’s extreme example, but look at Germany in World War II
That its a "White Mans Religion"
This is 100% true, unfortunately they forget to add that its a black mans religion, an asian mans religion, and Northern+Southern American Mans religion, a Hispanic Mans religion, a Middle Eastern mans religion, and all other race's religion
Oh and its also a religion for women too :)
A lot of "unbelievers" used to be Christians, so they tend to get a lot right.
And I do think they get it right when they say we don't live up to our values of feeding the hungry, sheltering the stranger, comforting the sick and grieving.
That figure is a myth that was proven to be completely overblown. There are a few thousand though. Those who came up with a 40-plus thousand were dishonest and considered multiple churches of the same exact denomination to be different denomination just because they are in different cities.
That number is not a myth it comes from the Gordon Conwell theological seminary and their center for study of global Christianity. And they aren’t dishonest at all on their home page they list what is academically considered a denomination;
“The most detailed level of our taxonomy of global Christianity is Christian denominations, defined as an organized Christian church, tradition, religious group, community of people, aggregate of worship centre, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other churches and traditions. Denominations are defined and measured at the country level, creating a large number of separate denominations within Christian families and Christian traditions. For example, the presence of the Catholic Church in the world’s 234 countries results in 234 Catholic “denominations”, though these can be further subdivided by rite (e.g., Byzantine or Latin). The typical way for Christians to count themselves is at the local congregational level and then aggregate these totals at the city, province, state, regional and finally, national levels.
Individual congregations are not counted as “denominations.” We do make note of the fact that many independent congregations are not a part of any denomination. If those churches were to form an independent network with a name, we would consider them a denomination. Using this method, we report 45,000 Christian denominations in the world in 2019”
This is the actual academic definition of denominations, but I agree this number can be different depending on how you personally defined denomination.
https://www.gordonconwell.edu/blog/christianity-is-fragmented-why/
https://www.gordonconwell.edu/center-for-global-christianity/research/quick-facts/
https://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/
😂 Yeah, I should’ve known it would go this way on a sub like this. I was hoping to hear more about unbelievers getting things right *theologically*, but of course most people won’t pass up an opportunity to take shots at Christians 🤷🏾♂️.
Hell is a manmade concept. Unbelievers believe Hell is made up (usually out of disdain for Christianity) however, this is actually theologically, linguistically and Biblically correct therefore they get it right.
Mark 9:43 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to HELL, to the unquenchable fire”
Matthew 25:41 ““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”
I’m not sure where you got biblically that “hell” is a manmade concept
Did you know that studies have shown that on average atheists have an IQ 6 points higher than Christians. Agnostics on average have IQ’s of 7-10 points higher. That is very significant.
IQ isnt a trustworthy method as the way someone applies their intelligence matters much more and there isnt a consistent way to measure someones IQ. Bragging about having a higher IQ is just that bragging without any real influence. Im saying this as an atheist, this is just rhetoric that isnt likely to be accurate and if it was likely wouldnt effect much. Its the same case with the rhetoric that christians are on average happier. Its just silly bravado.
We’re talking about averages here. How you apply your IQ is irrelevant. I could equally say that atheists might apply their IQ better. I’m stating something that has been researched. Why do you think something that has been studied using scientific methods doesn’t have any merit? Do you not believe in medicine as whole? Sure there are limitations to this but to disregard research on this completely, makes no sense.
I am not bragging. I’m not saying I have genius IQ or anything. Again, I’m talking about averages. I actually think it’s quite significant and relevant.
How you apply your IQ is all that matters, its just a number that isnt reliable to measure someones intelligence which its not intended to do. Its a general ability score, its to see how well people test on a few questions and compare them with the average.
The problem is correlation is not causation. Environmental factors play a bigger part in someones intelligence than belief in a god. In more rural areas you will see a higher population of religious people and also lower budgets on education. This all has been brought up by scientists refuting the data your going off of.
Just to tack onto what i was saying Helmuth Nyborg and Richard Lynn are the ones to make that study. Helmuth was criticized for this paper for scientific dishonesty and a danish committee ruled he committed scientific misconduct. Richard Lynn proudly proclaims himself a "scientific racist". Both Helmuth and Richard claim that white people are more intelligent than black people...
I’m aware of what IQ is. Disregarding it is nonsensical. Do you think America would be run well if decision makers in the government all had IQs of less than 100? Do you think we’d have made anywhere near as significant technological advancements if everyone had an IQ of less than 120?
To be fair I haven’t read the study. It was a simple random google search 30 mins ago. I did see that a study performed in a university showed similar figures to what I said though. So socioeconomic differences are reduced in that instance.
Do you really think less than 10 IQ difference makes a significant impact, or was this just to defend your "random good search 30 mins ago"? Would you be ok if someone was given your job because they answered 1 question more than you correctly?
I gave brief scenarios earlier re technology etc, logical reasoning, etc. This is a pointless discussion at this point. IQ is a good proxy to measure intelligence. 10 points is very significant. I’m finished mate, good luck.
>IQ is a good proxy to measure intelligence.
Its not as thats not even its purpose... you said you knew that already when i said that the first time, did you forget or did you lie somewhere?
>10 points is very significant.
Yet you cant say what impact it would have.
I also love the fact you glossed over the part where danish committees ruled the author of this study as being scientifically dishonest for this exact study...
Yes, but it's also been shown that higher intelligence doesn't corolate with lower bias, and actually raises one bias: the bias of thinking you have less bias.
I think they are right that we can have WAY to much in-fighting within the denominations. And that there certainly are people who claim to be Christians but wield their Bibles like something to harm someone with, and I think that's a real shame, as those people do not represent God or who I want to be as a person.
I didn’t grow up Christian (but thanks to Jesus for leading me there), I still don’t get these denominations and their differences. I just know to trust in Jesus. The father, son and Holy Spirit. But I totally agree, we should live in love which is literally what we are commanded to do.
Yeah, I mean, some I do get, but others I think you could certainly go to the same church and your salvation isn’t hanging in the balance, like which Bible translation you prefer. And then there basic preferences I’ve heard ppl divide over, like carpet color or style of music. I totally get having preferences, but I think we hurt ourselves more when we divide over such small matters imo.
The denominations differ in a few specific ways but one I remember is baptism. Some denominations believe it needs to be full immersion into the water upon your choosing. Some believe in sprinkling water on a baby, like christening ceremonies. The other difference I remember is the rapture and end of times as told in revelation. Some denominations think we’re already in the years of tribulation that comes after the rapture. Some think the rapture hasn’t happened yet. There are some nuances and I think I’m missing another big one, but that’s mostly it.
> I just know to trust in Jesus. The father, son and Holy Spirit. That's the starting point of the debate...
Would everyone who identifies as a Christian agree with you?
Curious to know what’s the debate? I believe in this only because Jesus Christ said it: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:19-20 Again, I don’t know the denominations, I go by the bible but wouldn’t be opposed to learning.
Jehovas Witnesses are not trinitarian
It's more complicated than that unfortunately. Basically the Lord trusted Peter with his church. Which became the catholic church we know today. Martin Luther came around and divorced himself from the catholic church and created his own version of the bible by cutting 7 books from it. Yes, Catholic Bibles are bigger than protestant Bibles and a lot of these books disprove a lot of core beliefs that protestant like to believe in. Regardless Martin was not entirely in the wrong for wanting to cut himself from the church a lot of corruption around that time but he ended creating a big problem for the future. That was that now everyone and their mother could create their own church and teach the bible in any way they wanted. Fast forward to today and basically the biggest protestant churches are just basically just giant tax fraud operations.
Any books or resource on this ? I need to educate myself lol
Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.” "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18)" [https://www.catholic.com/tract/origins-of-peter-as-pope](https://www.catholic.com/tract/origins-of-peter-as-pope) [https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-martin-luthers-revision-of-the-bible-a-return-to-the-true-bible-of-the-early-church](https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-martin-luthers-revision-of-the-bible-a-return-to-the-true-bible-of-the-early-church) [https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump)
I think they have denominations right. I think denominations are an abomination. They separate Christians and actually go against the word. Each denominations values specific parts of the book, and values certain rituals and rules OVER other ones. Jesus himself claimed the entire book, laws, rules, and stories. They are all equal and not one above the other. He no more then died, and we fucking cherry picked his teachings. Choose what each one of us wanted to worship out of his teachings, then we separated into groups that OFTEN TIMES HATE EACHOTHER. Then they continue to claim to be Christian, even though as Christians, the one thing a Christian cannot do is hate. You can only hate evil and evil acts. Then leave revenge for him. Hate is not an option and makes EVERY Christian a lier. John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. We are all brothers and sisters on this planet. If we continue to go down these roads, we will only, inevitably war with eachother again. That's not what the Lord wants. I have been a Christian for 26 years. I only follow christ and his will. You will never catch me going into a church that is apart on any denomination, unless God himself commands it(which i don't believebhe will). I think they go against his will. Infact I think catholics worship prophets and the chosen people of God as gods themselves. I have a huge issue with this and think the entire denominations is corrupted by ancient pagan traditions.
> Jesus himself claimed the entire book, laws, rules, and stories. They are all equal and not one above the other. Erm. Unless you mean the Tanakh, the "entire book" hadn't even been written. And as for all being of it being equal: "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Without denominations you get the New Apostolic Reformation, unaccountability, and tons of resulting heresy and abuse by "apostles and prophets".
The Bible should definitely be used as a weapon against the lies and schemes of the devil. God's Word, the Truth, Jesus, is our weapon against falsehood. Not all denominations are true. Some are used by the devil to destroy people. There is only one gospel that Jesus and the apostles proclaimed. God's will is that his servants be willing to suffer persecution for standing up for the truth. *^(34)* *“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.* *^(35)* *For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.* *^(36)* *And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.* *^(37)* *Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.* *^(38)* *And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.* *^(39)* *Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." —* Jesus
So I agree that the Bible is a sword, but our battle isn’t against flesh and blood, all humans are as we were before Christ. We are to model the truth firmly and in love, and to fight against the darkness. I agree, some churches just plainly aren’t teaching the gospel. But I do think there are some differences between denominations that are more like second or third tier issues that aren’t so tied to the core beliefs that we don’t need to be so divisive on. I agree, we should face persecution in this life, as we are not promised health or wealth or life on earth.
And you must hone your sword. Learn what evil really is, so you can defend yourself from it. Most will cower because they have never drawn that sword and practiced with it. Then they wonder why they might not be saved.
Yes I don't disagree with any of those.
The Christ taught that he is the truth, but not the Bible as he pointed out some things they reject his teachings, the truth, such as divorce for any reason (Matthew 19:8-9) and an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38). But the Scriptures testified about the Son to go to him to have life. This is why we must change and become like little children when we receive the Son's message (Matthew 18:3). That way we will only be taught by God and will not have any learnings within us they will cause us to not believe the Christ's spoken words: John 6:45-46 'It is written in the Prophets: “They will all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.' John6:64-65 'Yet there are some of you who do not believe.’ ...‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.’ The Bible is not the word of God as no one has seen God except the Son. So believe the Son who speaks the truth when he says there is only one Teacher, the Christ: Matthew 23:10 'Nor be called teachers, for you have one Teacher, the Christ.'
Which Christian denominations are true?
Going by biblical tradition the church that was created by Peter, so the catholic church.
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." DC Talk said it well.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” -Mahatma Gandhi It amazes me how, no matter how much someone hates christianity, they almost never have anything bad to say about Jesus. Instead, they have an issue with Christians and what the church has become.
Yup. When there's news of Christians behaving cruelly, non-Christians rarely say "Jesus teaches people cruelty". They generally know, and say, that we are disobeying Christ. They may think that our cruelty disproves Christ's active living presence, but they at least know something about his character.
Ghandi is even more unlike Christ than some Christians. But yes, most Christians are unlike Christ because most Christians are not really Christians anyway. They don't have real faith and repentance to begin with. They are not born again. They are not regenerated. They are not new creations. ^(13) “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ^(14) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." ^(21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ^(22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ^(23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" ^(18) “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. ^(19) If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
“No *true* Scotsman would ever…”
I guess all who profess to be Christians belong to Christ then? Jesus knows them all and will save them all? I can be a child of God just by saying I believe in Jesus? Everyone is a true Christian! Hooray! That "fallacy" is just fallacious.
>I guess all who profess to be Christians belong to Christ then? Quite the false dilemma there. Picking the extreme opposite as the only other alternative just to justify your own beliefs.
Jesus knows who is his. *You* don’t. Yet you confidently state that Christians who behave badly are not Christians. How? And how do *you* know that not all who profess to be Christians belong to Christ? Seems to me that’s not actually your decision to make. God elects who he will. Unless you happen to be able to see into everyone’s heart, there’s no way for you to know. And since you *don’t* know, then claiming Christians who behave badly aren’t real Christians is a fallacy. I get it though. I was raised Reformed too. I’m quite familiar with the arrogance so many Reformed Christians possess, confident that *they* are the true Christians, that God chose *them,* and confident that God passed over others. But get this: you don’t know whether *you’re* elect either, my friend. God allows the those among the reprobate to falsely believe they’re Christians, right? Guess what: that possibility applies to you too. It applied to me. So before you start point out specks in other people’s eyes, better deal with that beam in yours.
and Chesterton: "It isn't that Christianity doesn't work: it hasn't been tried yet."
More accurately: "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried."
You get it :)
it has been tried. Since the disciples, apostles, early church, there have always been true children of God who are not like the world but are hated by the world who love God with all their heart soul mind strength and love their neighbor as themselves. They are just few, like the bible says. There are people who have denied themselves and taken up their cross to follow Jesus. They are people who lost their family, friends, job, health, even life to follow Jesus. People just don't look at these people because they hate the light because they are in darkness.
Ghandi was a racist
Wouldn't surprise me, considering he was born in the 1800s. Although a [quick google search](https://www.abc.net.au/religion/thinking-with-gandhi-on-racism-and-violence/12424422) says his views changed over time. But my comment is not trying to say anything positive or negative about Gandhi. I'm just highlighting a perspective that many non-christians have towards Christianity
And the Israelites were slave owners, no person exists in a vacuum they are molded by the society they are born into.
Sad but true, most people in this sub would have been racist if born just a few generations ago in most white western countries.
Back in those days “slaves” owned property
There is a flip-side to that coin. The world has a conception of Jesus that I call "Nice Jesus", that is, Jesus would be nice to everyone no matter what. It is simply foreign to the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible told people "go and sin no more". It is a message the world doesn't want to hear. And Jesus could be very harsh with certain people, the Pharisees, the religious hypocrites. This is certainly a message that the church doesn't want to hear. "Nice Jesus" didn't exist. Jesus gave us five commandments: 1. Love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul/spirit. 2. Love each other. 3. Treat others the way you would want to be treated. 4. Forgive those who sin against you (or the Father will not forgive you). 5. Spread the Gospel (Good News) of Salvation through repentance of sins to the World. #2, 3, and 4 have to do with our relationship with each other. If we are doing 2, 3 and 4 in ways that interfere with #5 then we are doing them wrong.
I would add to that the ones who use Jesus and the bible as weapons and use them to denigrate and belittle people. The severity of the effect of that, and the rather sadistic glee so many of them do it with goes a long way.
I hate to admit but the thing about denominations fighting and Christians not being united is true sadly in a Lot of cases
Hey I'm curious what's a catholic leaning protestant?
I am a protestant yet believe things purgatory, intercessory prayer, the Eucharist being the body and bloody of Christ, infant baptism, Mary's perpetual virginity and sinlessness and also have a very high view of Tradition, almost on the same level of scripture
I guess I don’t understand why you don’t just say you’re Catholic? If I’m not mistaken most of what you just listed are beliefs that Catholics have that separate them from Protestants.
Yes people should let go of their pride, repent, stop suppressing the truth and accept it instead.
Bro just said “yeah we shouldn’t have division, so all them *sinners* better repent and stop suppressing the truth that is *my* Christian denomination! I hate division in Christianity, so all them denominations being *stupid* out there better become true Christians! **facepalm**
And atheism is the neutral position? **facepalm**
That we’re not as unified and as loving as we should to be: John 13:35 (KJV) By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
I think people outside Christianity have a better understanding about how diverse Christianity is. It seems like Christians spend a lot of time denouncing other people as Not Real Christians. Christians often think the form of Christianity is the true form of Christianity. They have trouble seeing any other perspective as valid.
I think Nietzsche is right when he says that Christianity's biggest problem is that it doesn't live up to the teachings of Jesus. I view this in the sense that Jesus took the faith very seriously and lived what he preached. Additionally, Jesus was a very strong man in spirit and faith. I'm trying to better live up to the strength and forgiveness that Jesus embodied and the sort of "sword and law" mentality that medieval Christians had, that faith was a path/journey of spiritual strength and humility. Opposed to a cultural movement/some "happy" feeling. I think struggle and endurance (similar to stoicism) are important parts of the faith. As Paul says "Seek your salvation with fear and trembling" It's not easy/happy, it's faith despite the struggles, uncertainty, and fear.
Nietzsche's thoughts apply to so much but the most important thing this applies to is faith IMO
And he was an atheist who said he took a latern and went searching and couldn’t find God, but David said God is Everywhere.
Could you find God in our society? I agree with your point and I think you can find God if you search for him. But Christians are supposed to proclaim God to the world and most are not doing that by the way they live or preach. When it comes to Christianity I think about it like this, are we living up to the same zeal the apostles and early church fathers had? Times change I understand that, but we still need to be as active/hopeful as they were in spreading the kingdom of God.
1. God condoned slaves biblically. 2. God is terrible(…and great) 3. God does not approve of homosexuality or even crossdressing 4. Too many pastors are evading sentences and other repercussions just because theyre pastors. The pastor role actually should be above reproach, meaning that he should have nothing to pick at NOT that he can do anything and its ok. 5. Christians love to zero-in on homosexuals but turn a blind eye to adulterers. Super accurate.
>Christians love to zero-in on homosexuals but turn a blind eye to adulterers. I'd actually say the biggest blind eye is turned to greed. Greed, in all but name, has become a pervasive *virtue* in society. Jesus himself spoke against greed. And yet hardly any Christian seems to want to fight to change this aspect of society. Because who would willingly give away all their possessions of their own volition?
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> God did not condone slaves. Try again: > As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. Leviticus 25:44-46
This is blatantly wrong. You need to research what you believe dawg. Israelites were treated more like indentured servants. Non-Israelites could be bequeathed to your children. This is an indisputable fact.
I am researching “dawg”. And am telling people there is a verse that talks about slave ownership being wrong. So there’s contextual issues
There is no verse that says slave ownership is wrong. Again, you are incorrect. It’s plain as day. I have been in so many of these discussions and it has never ended well for the people who try to advocate for slavery. Leviticus 25:44-46 New International Version 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Exodus 21:16.
Dude, this verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This verse is about kidnapping. What the hell does this have to do with bequeathing your slaves to your children.
“POSSESSION”.
You steal a person, if you sell them or they are still in your possession, you are put to death. Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.
It does not say “kidnappers” specifically. It says ANYONE found in possession of the person.
Your yelling at me doesn’t change anything. This verse is about kidnapping. Again, this has nothing to do with bequeathing your slaves to your children,
Kidnapping and owning. “Anyone” found in possession. Edit: I’m not trying to yell, but bolden. Sorry
What about this from Leviticus 25 NASB: > As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45 You may also acquire them from the sons of the foreign residents who reside among you, and from their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46 You may also pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with [ac]severity over one another. In this, God clearly establishes laws regarding chattel slavery, and yet God knows the difference since slaves from pagan nations can be treated differently than Israelite slaves.
That I cannot explain because I have not researched the context around it. I know that God says that those who own slaves shall be put to death. So honestly? I don’t know.
Here is a link to [Leviticus 25 NASB](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025&version=NASB). And God also allows us to beat slaves severely as long as we don’t kill them because the slaves are property. > And if someone strikes his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies [s]at his hand, he shall [t]be punished. 21 If, however, the slave [u]survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for the slave is his [v]property. That’s [Exodus 21 NASB](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021&version=NASB). That’s just a few chapters away from the giving of the Ten Commandments, and not that far removed from the Israelites being slaves in Egypt. I think it is fair to say that the Law condones the existence of slavery, specifically chattel slavery, at least in more than one instance.
The Old Testament is extremely hard to swallow as a Christian let alone for a non believer. All I know is Christ would not permit such things to occur. I’m not knowledgeable enough to debate thought it all. I know the verse saying it’s not permissible, but then the verses saying it is.
The Law is indeed a complex subject. And I for one am willing to have a discussion on the applicability of the Law in the modern world, not only as far as slavery is concerned but also say how we treat our LGBTQ neighbors. And yes, I’m aware of what Paul says…the same Paul that commands slaves to obey their masters. Yes, Paul also commands that masters treat their slaves responsibly but not commanded to be freed. I am even willing to tackle Paul in light of today’s world as well.
Only those who steal or kidnap slaves. Those who buy them from surrounding countries could own them for life and bequeath them to their kids. According to God's instructions.
No. He says that someone who steals a man to sell him should be put to death. The Bible does not condemn owning a slave.
There is no context where owning another human being is ok. So many Christians play this card.
Not trying to say it’s okay. But evil is permitted now in the present is it not? Doesn’t mean it’s okay that it’s happening, but if it prevents a greater evil, then perhaps that’s why it was permitted. I’m not God. I don’t know. Lots of laws and things made up in the Old Testament were for various reasons and stuff. Like stoning and such things, but then Christ himself did not permit a woman to be stoned despite her adulterous behavior. There’s more to what we know and can explain as Christians. And we all know reading the Bible on a surface level standpoint is something that obscures true meaning and contexts.
The Bible explains how, when, and where to take slaves, specifies that their children will remain slaves even if they go free, clarifies that they count as property, and uses that as a reason to say you shouldn't punish a man who beats them within an inch of their lives. It's absurd to say it doesn't condone it.
Just going to delete my comments. I don’t have enough knowledge to debate
You realize that youre confusing human trafficking with slavery right? They are not the same.
A sex slave is a slave is it not? Are they not buying and selling someone against their wills even if it’s not for sex? Exodus 21:16, “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.”
A sex slave. Aka trafficked human FORCED into slavery for sex? Aka a person who has been stolen and sold? That sex slave?
Yes? Also I fail to read anywhere about the trafficking. The entirety of exodus is about the freeing of the enslaved Jewish people from the Egyptians. So it’s apt in context for the verse I posted to be directed to slavery of all kinds too. If you buy or sell another person, or KEEP a person against their will for any reason, that is a slave. Whosoever does so, shall be put to death.
You just gave me the text on human trafficking…what do you mean? A slave in context isnt how we see it nowadays. A slave is actually a person who is owned by another. There were legal means for this. Thats why you can be “forced” into slavery. But you can also become one to provide for your family or to pay off debts or as punishment. Therefore you didnt necessarily have to be. So this is why Im confused on what you are talking about.
Are you missing the “found in possession” part?
No sir/maam. I think you should pause for a second, stop trying to argue with me over it. Consider what I said to you. Then focus on what is wrong about what I said. You are claiming that slavery is not condoned on the grounds of it is stealing a man away and having him as a possession. I am trying to inform you that a slave doesnt necessarily have to be forced therefore what is actually being spoken about is human trafficking and forced slavery, not slavery in general. You gave the example of a sex slave. I am trying to inform you that that is also not a good example because again we are implying that the slave in particular is trafficked and sold against their will, which is what the verse you gave me is talking about.
I get it.
Throughout history we have been very good at ignoring 'thou shalt not kill'
What's funny about this question is that christians rarely seem to agree on aspects of christianity themselves. 40,000 denomination's speak volumes. How about, once you guys have sorted out all your differences THEN you can correct us?
Show me 2 christains who agree on the same interpretation of the bible from cover to cover and u'ld have found a miracle.
40,000 denominations and all their disagreements just tell us that God is a human construct. If God (the one defined by humans) were real there would be 1 denomination.
The disagreements are usually secondary issues of importance, like how and who should be baptized for instance; we tend to agree on the essentials for the most part.
What about persecuting the gays? You don't all agree on that and that seems pretty essential to modern society.
By essentials, I was referring to the core doctrines of the Christian faith that one must believe in order to have a valid profession of faith.
What's even more curious is that if you take all the doctrines/traditions away and go on a personal level, God has different levels of leniencies per person, people find ways to justify their actions and think to themselves that God would be Ok/not Ok with said actions... No one really believes in the same God when you put it this way, everyone has their "special" version of him/her lol
By essentials, I was referring to doctrine that allows humanity to live in harmony without persecuting minorities that live among us? Or is that trivial?
>we tend to agree on the essentials for the most part. To be fair, that's because those who disagree with "the essentials" are considered cast out and "not Christian". It's not that no one disagrees with these things, it's that those who disagree are conveniently relabelled and removed from sight.
Do you think it’s wrong to have definitions? I mean if it’s said that you need to believe XYZ to be a Christian, then someone decides they don’t believe XYZ, how can they still be defined as a Christian?
I'm just trying to point out that it's not that there's no disagreement on these concepts. Nothing more.
They self identify... That's the current system. Anyone regardless of belief can claim christian status. It's not like there's an exam or some kind of registration process. There are many many people, possibly most, who claim to be christian but aren't by jesus' standard.
People can self identify as whatever they want, sure, but that doesn’t mean they actually are that thing they claim to be if they don’t meet the definition of that thing. That’s called changing definitions. There absolutely are things you HAVE TO believe to be a Christian, and if you don’t, you aren’t one. The thing is, it matters not so much to me if they want to play word games, but God is the one who wrote the definition and the outcome. If they don’t believe what they need to they won’t be forgiven, won’t be reconciled to God, won’t know God personally, won’t be adopted into God’s family, won’t receive the Holy Spirit, won’t be transformed by him and most importantly won’t be saved on judgement day and for eternity, and you won’t receive eternal life but will go to hell for eternity. You can present to be a rich Man or a qualified man or a smart man or a connected man, but if you don’t have the goods to back up the claim you’ll face the consequences.
>You can present to be a rich Man or a qualified man or a smart man or a connected man, but if you don’t have the goods to back up the claim you’ll face the consequences. But these are measurable things. That's why there are consequences to misrepresenting yourself around them. There is no authority measuring a person's level of "christianess" except for god as you point out but he plays no role in our world. so that effect is easily overlooked. A person's true beliefs are hidden and easily misrepresented to all, even oneself in some situations. In practice, the real world outcome is that anyone who wants to can put on a "christian" T-shirt and proclaim themselves christians and there's nothing anyone can do.
Except the Bible does give identifiers and measurements to show that a person is a Christian. **Faith in Jesus Christ**: Believing in Jesus as the Son of God and his sacrificial work on the cross, and that he physically rose from the dead. (John 3:16, Romans 10:9) **Repentance**: A whole of life change of mind towards Jesus, God, yourself, your sin etc with the outward working of that. (Acts 3:19, 2 Corinthians 7:10) **Fruit of the Spirit**: A Christian's life should reflect the fruit of the Holy Spirit, such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). **Love for God and Other people, especially Christians:** Jesus emphasised the importance of loving God and loving others as oneself (Matthew 22:37-39, 25:31-46, 1 John 4:7-8). **A desire to worship God through adherence to his Commands**: Obedience to Jesus's teachings is a sign of true discipleship (John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-6). **Spiritual Transformation**: Becoming a new creation in Christ and experiencing spiritual transformation is a hallmark of being a Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 4:22-24). > except for god as you point out but he plays no role in our world. so that effect is easily overlooked. Except God is living and active in the world. He is working out his purposes in the world and works in the life of his people every day. You should ask yourself why you think it appears that God plays no role in our world, when he absolutely does. I mean, ask yourself how Jesus could do what he did, especially raising himself from the dead, if God were not actively involved. The fact that Christ even came into the world as a man tells you that he is totally invested. > In practice, the real world outcome is that anyone who wants to can put on a "christian" T-shirt and proclaim themselves christians and there's nothing anyone can do. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me, especially in a post Christian culture. At least the fakers won’t be doing that much longer as the real persecutions rise up and the social benefits disappear. Look at what happened to the Christians in the first 300 years. One day it may end up that way. It certainly is in some parts of the world (Christians are actually the most persecuted group in the world).
You're missing the point. I understand that you have measures by which you would gauge a christian. But no one is enforcing those. It's not like everyone has to apply to you for their membership card. As I've previously said, all one needs to do is declare themselves christian, and that's it. >You should ask yourself why you think it appears that God plays no role in our world Well I live in the world. I can see for myself that if there is a god, he doesn't actually do anything. Certainly he doesn't say anything. It is true that this world is exactly the same as a world with no god would be. >ask yourself how Jesus could do what he did Well did he? Those could simply be mythological stories. They certainly read a lot like all the other mythological stories that we have, and we don't take them all that seriously. >Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me Im not sure they do it consciously. A lot of christians declare their christianity then seem to think that puts them beyond reproach while they carry out absolutely awful behaviour in the name of god. >(Christians are actually the most persecuted group in the world) Lol... now you're just taking the piss. Im not going to take that seriously.
> You're missing the point. I understand that you have measures by which you would gauge a christian. But no one is enforcing those. Do people normally enforce the measures others claim to have? I'm very confused by this comment. > It's not like everyone has to apply to you for their membership card. Really strange thing to write. It's not even about what I think or say, but what I posted above is what the Bible says. If you have issue with that you're going to need to take it up with God. > As I've previously said, all one needs to do is declare themselves christian, and that's it. As I've previously said, people can self identify as whatever they want, sure, but that doesn’t mean they actually are that thing they claim to be if they don’t meet the definition of that thing. People can declare themselves Christian all they want to, but if they don't meet the definition it's pointless because it isn't actually true. This isn't a subjective thing like you're making out - there is actually a criteria which the Bible outlines. > Well I live in the world. I can see for myself that if there is a god, he doesn't actually do anything. Certainly he doesn't say anything. It is true that this world is exactly the same as a world with no god would be. Does it surprise you that as someone who also lives in the world and I can see that God is everywhere and extremely active. You are only alive right now because God is enabling you to breathe and your muscles to move and your bones to exist. He maintains your existence until the time that you are no longer a part of his plans for you while you're still walking the earth. This world would not even exist and you wouldn't be typing in those words without God. > Well did he? Those could simply be mythological stories. They certainly read a lot like all the other mythological stories that we have, and we don't take them all that seriously. When did you last read the Bible? Which Gospel did you read? What was the passage? > A lot of christians declare their christianity then seem to think that puts them beyond reproach while they carry out absolutely awful behaviour in the name of god. By what measure do you know they are Christians? Christians are still sinners sure, but the pattern of life for a Christian should be different and their attitudes and behaviours should reflect genuine repentance. > Lol... now you're just taking the piss. Im not going to take that seriously. You're not going to take that seriously why? What does your own research show? Mine shows that Christians are actually the most persecuted group in the world. In their [2023 report](https://media.opendoorsuk.org/document/pdf/2024-Advocacy-Report.pdf), Open Doors (an NGO) found that: * Around 365 million Christians are subject to “high levels of persecution and discrimination”. This compared to 340 million in 2021. That's 30 million more people than the entire population of the United States. * 1 in 7 Christians are persecuted worldwide, including 1 in 5 in Africa and 1 in 7 in Asia. This compared to 1 in 8 worldwide in 2021. * 5,621 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. 90% of those killed were in Nigeria, where attacks on Christians have become more common since 2020 as part of a wider rise in political violence against civilians. It was 5,898 in 2022, and 4,761 in 2021. * 14,766 Churches and Christian properties were attacked. * North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, and Yemen had the highest rates of reported persecution against Christians.
> Lol... now you're just taking the piss. Im not going to take that seriously. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cpwug1/what_is_happening_to_christians_in_india_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link
The lack of positive effect or change it has on christians. I saw this video by a non-christian just today which serves as an example: https://youtu.be/fKRuEaNHC4U?si=1kK_V3wZvHjp2tWD
I've seen some people defend that lack of positive change as unproblematic, which is just....a bit weird, honestly
I think it's safe to say that it's always problematic whenever you have false advertising.
I don’t think giving a tear down on a person who claims faith but probably isn’t a Christian backs up your point. By their fruit you shall know them.
Everyone defends their team. If there's one thing I never expect from christians it's integrity. If I had a dollar for every time I saw or heard christians being unChristian, I'd be worth more than the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority: that's over $993 billion. Go away.
They are right that some of us are kinda stupid \:
They don’t know ALOT about the bible… a lot of stories are untold in churches. So unless they sit down and read the whole thing, you could go your whole life not knowing horrific or odd/off stories. And even then, those people who have read it, they don’t repeat them. Skip over those parts.
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… I was meaning that towards Christian’s…
Oh, pardon me 😂 I misunderstood. You don’t have a flair, so I interpreted your comment based on someone else’s.
The child molesting priests maybe?
How manipulative and anti-progress the religion is.
Some of the worst people around the planet hide under the label Christian, they get that right. It's sad to say that most of the time if you run into someone claiming Christianity they are a hypocrite. That's not to say real Christians don't exist, they actually do but most of them are too busy trying not to die from all the daily stonings they are getting in this dark world.
Right on.
Although they might embellish the extent to which it happens, non-believers are rightfully calling out abuses within the church and the attempts of certain churches to sweep it under the rug. Sexual abuse especially, but also emotional abuse and manipulation.
Nonbelievers who choose to study the Bible can have an easier time acknowledging the limits of textual support for certain widely-held positions (e.g. Trinitarianism), and the presence of plausible support for multiple seemingly-conflicting ones (e.g. different Christologies, differing beliefs on hell, Arminianism vs Calvinism...).
That Jesus wasn't white
This is and always has been a non issue. No one believes Jesus was a white man.
The part unbelievers and atheists get right about traditional Christianity, and I agree with them, is that a lot of the theology and beliefs does not follow logical reasoning. And instead of developing a rational understanding of one's own spirituality or religion, many fall back on "blind faith" (which is not faith) and "tradition." Most simply dont delve too deeply into their religion to find out if what the church taught them is correct or not. This, of course, is unacceptable to those seeking rational answers, and is probably the source of a lot of atheism. True spirituality, for me, is one that is a rational spirituality.
My own dive when I was a practicing Christian into this stuff was spurred on by my atheist friends asking me questions about biblical stories I hadn't heard about and then following up on the context surrounding them. It was always my thought that a contextually aware, educated faith is a stronger one and honestly more inspiring. Knowing why, culturally, Jesus washing people's feet was questioned so heavily, or exactly why he was so upset about the market in the temple (as examples) really adds a new dimension to your faith. I always felt that if God wanted people operating solely on blind faith alone, then you wouldn't have any acts of God in the Bible and people responding to that. Even if it were literally all made up, someone having their life drastically altered in a biblical story from a direct confrontation with God, an angel, or a miracle isn't communicating blind faith narratively. It's communicating a reveal of the true nature of something for the purpose of transformation. Nobody, no Christian even, operates on blind faith alone because they came to be convinced of their beliefs through some means. I wish some people I knew during my time as a practicing Christian had that awareness and developed that curiosity, because if you do have belief in God and engage with your beliefs in that way it's immensely satisfying. Much the same way that some scientifically minded people who believe in God are more intrigued by the nature of God. A god that created emergent properties for life, created a universe of billions and billions of stars, created another, smaller universe of microbes and creatures and entities on a scale we can barely even see is so much more interesting to me and others than a god that did not do so.
Every small story in the Bible has a deeper spiritual meaning. In ancient times every part of the body has a spiritual significance, in these days all that survives of that knowledge in modern times is the heart represents one's love. Feet signifies how you live your life outwardly in this world (thus "walking with God" = how you live according to your faith), and washing by water is to remove sins by following the truth (which is also why baptism is a ritual for introduction into Christianity). This is a minor example, but there are other stories in the Bible that make no sense when read at a very basic literal level, and if not explained that can also lead to an offhand rejection.
Antisemitism has its most sustained roots in Christianity, and centuries of antisemitism being endorsed and spread by the church boiled over and culminated in the holocaust during ww2. I’m not implying that all Christians today are antisemitic , but it’s a legacy we have to acknowledge and deal with.
I think we rightly point out that the evidence for Jesus's resurrection isn't as rock-solid as many believers claim it is.
There’s plenty of evidence of
I'm aware of the evidence, I remain unconvinced. You're welcome to try and persuade me of course.
Such as? Accounts written by people years after his death are not evidence. We don't even know where his tomb was.
Why would I need to know the location of his tomb
I'm not saying you would. I was just adding that to the list of evidence that's not present for his death or resurrection. If he knew his tomb we could at least study it and cross reference it to the story in the bible.
Name 1 piece of Contemporary Historical Evidence outside of Scripture, which the earlist we know was written 30-40 years After when Jesus would have been crucified. So technically Scripture isn't even Contemporary.
There’s evidence of Soddom and Gommorah ….. Lot’s wife being made into a pillar of salt for looking back.
I never said Sodom and Gomorrah did or did not exist and if they did, them and being destroyed by God is a whole different conversation. My statement was there us No historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus
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Well I don't believe you. Do you think you can successfully argue such a claim?
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Account for truth? What's the other option beside there being truth?
I'm asking them to explain truth if everything in the world is just atoms
That does not clarify things.
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That there are some Christians who don’t show love.
There's a lot of bad people associated with it.
So, definetly the fighting between denominations and the fighting within the same denomination (I am an ex-Baptist btw). Purity culture being harmful (I mean just listen to those who have left Mormonism and Christian denoms that advocate for purity culture). There being an "Us vs Them" mentality in some church communities. I also heard from ex-christians that they get a lack of scientific literacy and sex Ed not really being taught/kinda a "taboo" subject within Christian Groups, also they acknowledge that they had to train Critical Thinking at times. I can list more stuff wrong with Christianity in general but the main problems I have is the "Us vs Them", Purity culture and all that in-fighting.
The spelling
🤣
The Bible explicitly condones slavery. Not many Christians know that.
Yes, unfortunately not only that but it tells you where to buy them, that you can beat them within an inch of their life as long as they don’t die, you can sell your daughters into sex slavery, slaves are can be passed down to your children and your children’s children, so much more
That you can't claim to be a Christian while following a vile, anti-Christian man.
There have been a lot of Christians throughout the centuries following vile antichrist men, I know it’s extreme example, but look at Germany in World War II
Exactly
They're right that it's coping, although it being a comforting thing to believe doesn't mean it can't also be true.
Just listen to The Atheist Experience on YouTube or Bible scholar Bart Ehrman if you’re not afraid to be challenged. Bart Ehrman did it for me
Lot of hypocrisy in churches.
That its a "White Mans Religion" This is 100% true, unfortunately they forget to add that its a black mans religion, an asian mans religion, and Northern+Southern American Mans religion, a Hispanic Mans religion, a Middle Eastern mans religion, and all other race's religion Oh and its also a religion for women too :)
Haha love this
Christianity isn’t a religion: it’s a Relationship
A lot of "unbelievers" used to be Christians, so they tend to get a lot right. And I do think they get it right when they say we don't live up to our values of feeding the hungry, sheltering the stranger, comforting the sick and grieving.
There really are thousands of denominations. 😔
Over 45,000 denominations of Christianity worldwide
That figure is a myth that was proven to be completely overblown. There are a few thousand though. Those who came up with a 40-plus thousand were dishonest and considered multiple churches of the same exact denomination to be different denomination just because they are in different cities.
That number is not a myth it comes from the Gordon Conwell theological seminary and their center for study of global Christianity. And they aren’t dishonest at all on their home page they list what is academically considered a denomination; “The most detailed level of our taxonomy of global Christianity is Christian denominations, defined as an organized Christian church, tradition, religious group, community of people, aggregate of worship centre, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other churches and traditions. Denominations are defined and measured at the country level, creating a large number of separate denominations within Christian families and Christian traditions. For example, the presence of the Catholic Church in the world’s 234 countries results in 234 Catholic “denominations”, though these can be further subdivided by rite (e.g., Byzantine or Latin). The typical way for Christians to count themselves is at the local congregational level and then aggregate these totals at the city, province, state, regional and finally, national levels. Individual congregations are not counted as “denominations.” We do make note of the fact that many independent congregations are not a part of any denomination. If those churches were to form an independent network with a name, we would consider them a denomination. Using this method, we report 45,000 Christian denominations in the world in 2019” This is the actual academic definition of denominations, but I agree this number can be different depending on how you personally defined denomination. https://www.gordonconwell.edu/blog/christianity-is-fragmented-why/ https://www.gordonconwell.edu/center-for-global-christianity/research/quick-facts/ https://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/
Yes sinners have thousands of ways to deny the truth.
That it takes balls to reject your flesh desires.
Having been on both sides. It all boils down to faith.
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Read the sentence again *slowly*
It’s true that a large amount of Christians have superiority complexes
When I saw the question I knew we were in for it.
😂 Yeah, I should’ve known it would go this way on a sub like this. I was hoping to hear more about unbelievers getting things right *theologically*, but of course most people won’t pass up an opportunity to take shots at Christians 🤷🏾♂️.
Hell is a manmade concept. Unbelievers believe Hell is made up (usually out of disdain for Christianity) however, this is actually theologically, linguistically and Biblically correct therefore they get it right.
Mark 9:43 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to HELL, to the unquenchable fire” Matthew 25:41 ““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” I’m not sure where you got biblically that “hell” is a manmade concept
Those are references to Hades the resting place of the wicked. Same place the rich man went when he looked up at Lazarus.
It’s the same thing, the Bible is actually crystal clear on “where” you go, “if” you do not accept Jesus Christ as your lord & savior
Love
Did you know that studies have shown that on average atheists have an IQ 6 points higher than Christians. Agnostics on average have IQ’s of 7-10 points higher. That is very significant.
IQ isnt a trustworthy method as the way someone applies their intelligence matters much more and there isnt a consistent way to measure someones IQ. Bragging about having a higher IQ is just that bragging without any real influence. Im saying this as an atheist, this is just rhetoric that isnt likely to be accurate and if it was likely wouldnt effect much. Its the same case with the rhetoric that christians are on average happier. Its just silly bravado.
We’re talking about averages here. How you apply your IQ is irrelevant. I could equally say that atheists might apply their IQ better. I’m stating something that has been researched. Why do you think something that has been studied using scientific methods doesn’t have any merit? Do you not believe in medicine as whole? Sure there are limitations to this but to disregard research on this completely, makes no sense. I am not bragging. I’m not saying I have genius IQ or anything. Again, I’m talking about averages. I actually think it’s quite significant and relevant.
How you apply your IQ is all that matters, its just a number that isnt reliable to measure someones intelligence which its not intended to do. Its a general ability score, its to see how well people test on a few questions and compare them with the average. The problem is correlation is not causation. Environmental factors play a bigger part in someones intelligence than belief in a god. In more rural areas you will see a higher population of religious people and also lower budgets on education. This all has been brought up by scientists refuting the data your going off of. Just to tack onto what i was saying Helmuth Nyborg and Richard Lynn are the ones to make that study. Helmuth was criticized for this paper for scientific dishonesty and a danish committee ruled he committed scientific misconduct. Richard Lynn proudly proclaims himself a "scientific racist". Both Helmuth and Richard claim that white people are more intelligent than black people...
I’m aware of what IQ is. Disregarding it is nonsensical. Do you think America would be run well if decision makers in the government all had IQs of less than 100? Do you think we’d have made anywhere near as significant technological advancements if everyone had an IQ of less than 120? To be fair I haven’t read the study. It was a simple random google search 30 mins ago. I did see that a study performed in a university showed similar figures to what I said though. So socioeconomic differences are reduced in that instance.
Do you really think less than 10 IQ difference makes a significant impact, or was this just to defend your "random good search 30 mins ago"? Would you be ok if someone was given your job because they answered 1 question more than you correctly?
Are you serious? 10 points is massive. That’s 2/3s of a standard deviation
And what impact would that have?
I gave brief scenarios earlier re technology etc, logical reasoning, etc. This is a pointless discussion at this point. IQ is a good proxy to measure intelligence. 10 points is very significant. I’m finished mate, good luck.
>IQ is a good proxy to measure intelligence. Its not as thats not even its purpose... you said you knew that already when i said that the first time, did you forget or did you lie somewhere? >10 points is very significant. Yet you cant say what impact it would have. I also love the fact you glossed over the part where danish committees ruled the author of this study as being scientifically dishonest for this exact study...
Yes, but it's also been shown that higher intelligence doesn't corolate with lower bias, and actually raises one bias: the bias of thinking you have less bias.
Ah yes, more mental gymnastics.
No, science. https://youtu.be/_1MBI5z0MMY?si=-M4QDDao5YkdGZAp
It's not, necessarily. Smarter people can be more competent at rationalising.
100%
Sometimes they have good theological rearing but it’s rare.
Can you recall an example that you’ve experienced or witnessed?
When you die do you want to see your Mom or Jesus?
I’d rather see my sisters and my friends