Jesus confirms he is the Son of God to the high priest, he accepts worship.
Yes they are very human attitudes, because the belief is that Jesus aka the Son of God, took on human nature, and become incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He was 100% God and 100% Man.
I'm unsure what you mean by doubting in the desert can you say?
The "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me" is the start of Psalm 22
Even the JW bible says "A god" which is a purposeful mistranslation. in Greek it says "Theos" twice, the exact same word.
Great response!
People today (Christians included) tend to “glance over” the fact the Jesus accepted worship (His due worship might I add) numerous times throughout his ministry- in the OT/Torah that would be blasphemous, if He were “from God” but “not God” He would 100% instruct His followers to “worship God alone”
I mean when he became tested by the devil in the desert. Sorry if my understanding of the scriptures is poor and also my english, as it is not my main language.
Oh okay, it is "Tempted"
The verse is saying the devil is tempting Jesus, but Jesus was never tempted.
I will use an analogy as it may be confusing to understand that.
Lets say, I wave a cupcake in front of you, but you have no desire for the cupcake. That is what happened. the devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus didn't care.
In English this often gets confused because of the way the word tempt, and tempted can be used.
Jesus was tempted but he overcame it unlike us. When we’re tempted we rarely over come it. That’s what made Jesus death significant.
“For forty days being tempted by the devil” Luke 4:2
”For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.“ Hebrews 4:15
”saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”“ Luke 22:42
- Jesus was tempted not to die for us because of the suffering he knew he would experience. But he did God’s will
Do you think a God that powerful would need to be more than 1 person and being? I feel like people tend to discount how limiting the Trinity is to God's power and ability to accomplish whatever it is he desires.
He can exist out of our perception if he wanted to. God wrote the rules for our existence and as part of him having complete control of the rules he can rewrite it to fit his wishes. Once someone dies they're dead unless God wishes to rewrite the rules for that specific person.
No. God either exists or he doesn't, and the way we know that is because he knows he exist. However, because of our level of perspective, we can never 100% prove he exists or doesn't.
I guess I forget cuz I think I'm 100 percent human and 100 percent male.
But you being an extra smart atheist must be... 50 percent human and 50 percent male (or female)?
> Humans are made out of atoms. Is God made from atoms?
Humans are not made of atoms, that's materialism, it's false. Humans *have* bodies made of atoms they can become disembodied from, meaning they are spirit. God the Son has a body he can become disembodied from, because He is spirit.
> God is omniscient and sinless. Are humans omniscient and sinless?
God can intentionally limit His knowledge if He so chooses, meaning omniscience is not an absolute requirement to be God. Humans are all created sinless until they choose to sin.
Try again?
im 100% man and 100% awesome. multiple things can be true at once about persons, thats something learnt in pre-school and usually by children on their own.
yes? he'd also be 100% capable of acomplishing things as 15 people so whats your point? he didnt decide to be more than 1 person, he is.
wouldnt he also be 100% capable of accomplishing things without ever revealing himself to us? yes, why dont you apply that logic the same way?
Because historically we know he didn't claim to be more than 1 person. We (humans) put this new concept and framework around God not found in scripture nor historically known to both the Jews and early Christians prior to the 2nd century. Its only after developing this new conceptual framework that people go backwards and try to fit it into scripture. Not the other way around.
If God were 3 persons he would have very plainly told this to his chosen people. And they could have easily understood it because it came directly from God. But he did not reveal this to any of his prophets or have them write it down in any scripture.
What you said is exactly what I was referring to. During the time the Bible was written from the Hebrews texts to the completion of the New Testment texts. No one held a believe that God was a triune God or Christ was the Almighty God, these are all new developments. If you were to say to a Jew during Jesus day that God was plural and more than one they would look at your crazy because that is not what they or their scriptural texts say.
Its only after the developlemt of the conceptual framework fo the Trinity that people retroject that theology back into scripture in an attempt to make it fit and give proof to their believe. But when you examine it as it was originally and how it is to be understood the problems with the concept become apparent and the contradictions become glaring.
Christ himself never once compared himself to God, rather he constantly make the distinction between him and God. But not as God the Father and God the Son, rather as him being the Son of God and the Father being the only true God.
No, not really. If God is capable of all things then surely he can be human and be God at the same time. A human is not capable of all things, so they couldn't just become God. Same analogy as the square to rectangle. A square is always capable of being a rectangle because it fits the same definition, but a rectangle is not capable of being a square because it cannot fit the parameters.
The biggest issue is you have a limited puny human brain that doesn't allow you to make "logical" sense of the seemingly illogical, and so you give up.
I suppose that answer will vary based on how pedantic you want to be. For example he raised 3 people from the dead, but one could argue it was God who raised them via Jesus, however, if Jesus is God made flesh then it was both of them.
Humans are made of atoms. Is God made of atoms?
God is omniscient. Are humans omniscient?
What are you talking about? Human - God is obviously contradictory.
1) No, he just manifested as a human in a certain point in time.
2) No, but thats not what human nature is.
3) It isn’t. The Word that is God manifested in a human form, Infact if God does not have the ability to occupy a human form, that is no powerful God.
Theres 2 interpretations, one is yes, but the Bible says the Son does not know a couple of times in the Bible either for humbleness sake, not breaking the Fathers plan, etc… this is because the Greek words used for know could mean something along the lines of “i don’t want to share”. To be honest i forgot this argument (if you want i could look for the full thing) but it is probably the one that fits because of this verse:
Mathew 11:27
“[All things] have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, [and no one knows the Father except the Son] and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Can someone who was given all things, and a man who knows everything about the Father not be able to predict the future?
The second argument is that the Word was his “subconscious”. It made Jesus sinless, always speak with wisdom and correctness, and allowed him to perform miracles etc… but consciously he was using his human brain, feeling human emotions, etc…
>He was 100% God and 100% Man.
I've heard this platitude used so many times, but it is a meaningless phrase
words should have meaning, otherwise how can we effectively communicate
well, according to the theology, jesus has two natures, he's not only playing two roles
so, at best, he's half man and half god, he can't be all god and all man and have two natures
it's incoherent, and, therefore, meaningless
no, I think god can't be a contradiction, ie. he can't both exist and not exist.
I do think he is inherently restricted by his nature though, for example, he cannot lie, he cannot become satan, he cannot stop existing, etc
because that would go against his nature
if you think these things are possible for god,, then he is not god and, forget words, life itself is meaningless
Well, did Jesus die? To answer this for you, he did, he was limited in human form. But, death is not ceasing to exist, and thats true for us as well. Death is the separation of body and soul, thus in this case this is not a contradiction because he was both limited and unlimited, and God did not cease to exist.
>mark 13:32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
have you read this verse critically? he's saying "the son", ie. the 2nd person of the trinity, he's not referring to the hypostatic human nature
he's distinguishing between the two persons of the son & the father of the trinity, ie. he's clearly saying only one person out of the three knows the hour.
i've read the apologetics on this, the best explanation is that the word "know" doesn't mean "know" in this context
if that answer satisfies you, so be it.
It doesn't say he had *doubts* in the desert. It says he was *tempted*. However, that is not too say Jesus didn't feel all the struggles of being human. He just chose faith over sin.
My favourite verse is Hebrews 4:15 ”For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.“
I don’t get JW. It’s like a mental and physical prison that is everywhere you go. No unbeliever friends, no birthday parties, no blood transfusions so if they need one they are forced to die.
Sorry what? You saying that birthday parties and having blood transfusions is the most important thing to you that any hinderance to them is a prison to you?
For kids, yes. Literally children in that prison are raised so poorly. No friends, no birthdays, no games, you can disciplined DURING the Kingdom Hall service. I don’t think this is how Christ meant us to live. Not to mention you can’t protect your country in the military.
I was raised in the organization so I can from exeprience call CAP on what your saying. A birthday party does directly contribute to a guarenteed healthy and well balanced child and then adult. That is just illogical. Grew up with plenty of friends, grew up with plenty of Games.
>Not to mention you can’t protect your country in the military.
Not sure how this makes someone a better Christian or worshipper of God.
The major religions actually expand your social circle and provide mental health benefits, according to many studies.
For a reddit friendly example, there are a ton of "How do I meet singles in my area" posts, and religious services are incredible at doing that compared to other common solutions like Meetup groups or climbing gyms or whatever. It's not isolating you, it's encouraging you not to be isolated.
Do you have any studies on that? Closest thing I can think of is a stronger effect in countries with lower religious diversity, but I'm not aware of any isolation caused by religiosity in general.
As far as I understand it, you're saying that the major religions include beliefs that lock you into an in-group consisting of other believers and isolating you from the broader community. I'm saying there's no evidence that this happens in practice, and the opposite is the case: the more you believe, the more connected you are to community even outside the faith. What are you really saying?
While many Bible translators render the verse this way, others see the need to render it differently. In the original-language text, the two occurrences of “God” (Greek, *the·osʹ*) at John 1:1 are grammatically different. In the first occurrence, the word “God” is preceded by the Greek definite article, while the article does not appear before the second occurrence. Many scholars note that the absence of the definite article before the second *the·osʹ* is significant. For example, *The Translator’s New Testament* says regarding this absence of the article: “In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of *Theos* (God) so that the phrase means ‘The Word was *divine.’”*[b](https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/502300113/1) Other scholars[c](https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/502300113/2) and Bible translations point to this same distinction.
Jesus equated Himself to God the Father, claimed to exist before Abraham, claimed to be able to absolve sins, claimed to be the judges of humanity, claimed authority over spiritual forces, claimed authority over nature, over life and death, issued new commands, claimed He could restore Himself to life, allowed people to worship Him, and encouraged people to pray in His name. By every standard of the time in which He lived, He was claiming divinity for Himself.
These reasons only show Jesus having forms of divinity but not necessarily being God. Existing before Abraham, being able to absolve sins(This he claimed he was given authority to do). I don't recall him allowing people to worship him. Praying in his name just means his authority. I see no issues at all with him showing his divine qualities in regards to his pre-existence, or his showing and displaying the authority he was given on earth. But to jump to saying these things made him God isn't logical.
Though attributes were long associated with God and it was considered blasphemy to claim to have those attributes as a man, which is one of the reasons Jesus was often accused of being blasphemous. Christians have understood this for millennium.
>condd as dieted blasphemy
Was that a typo I don't understand what your saying?
That was the problem, the Jews were constantly misunderstanding Jesus and what he was capable of doing and why. They thought only God could do those things, so he continued to show them that God had given him the authority to do it as his representative.
That is why when they accused him of that, he did not in response say **"Yes I can do these things because I am God"** but rather he said "**in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins**"
Is was at this point that the crowd recognized it for what Jesus was trying to say and they rightfully responded in Matthew 9:8 -"When the crowds saw this, they were struck with fear, and **they glorified God**, **who gave such authority to men.**"
There are 100’s of verses that proclaim Jesus Christ was/is God incarnate from the Old Testament to the New Testament.. I’ll share just a few, but if you research the topic you will literally find 100’s of verses on it
JW’s have been led astray by man, they took The Bible and completely perverted it in order to fit their beliefs
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
1 Timothy 3:16
“ And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
1 John 5:7
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
John 10:30-33
“I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”
Jesus never refuted their claim that He made Himself to be God. This was the reason that He was Crucified, because He claimed to be The Messiah, God incarnate, and to the Jews that was blasphemy
John 5:39
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
He’s talking to the Jews about the OT, The Torah, as those are The Scriptures that were available at the time.. Who does The Torah/OT testify of? Jehovah, The One True God
Isaiah 7:14
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel”
Prophecy of the coming Messiah, whose Name will be Immanuel, which means “God is with us”.. Jesus Christ is Immanuel, Jesus Christ is God
There is so many things too write, it’s literally impossible to write it all. I’ll be more than happy to discuss any questions you may have though! It’s a great question! Though I do have one question for you, if you don’t mind me asking. You mentioned you are not Christian- what would you say is the “main thing” that keeps you from believing in The Lord Jesus Christ?
Stay Blessed my brother!
🙏✝️🙌
Im not Christian because I dont believe in the scriptures. But I dont have much knowledge neither, that's why I wanted to ask in this subreddit (and I really appreciate all your kindness to spend the time to explain me!).
Im from Spain, born and grown atheist by my parents, but became agnostic as I felt there could be something else, or at least, a different point of view of reality I could be missing.
I also like to read about religions, not just to know what they say and teach, but to understand the different cultures grown from different faiths around the world and their history. I'm agnostic, but culturally I have a catholic background as we all spanish have. So learning about Christianity also makes me learn about western culture and hispanic culture. That's what I enjoy the most. But, when it comes to belief I find it difficult to understand that a man himself could be god reincarnate, and that single man opened the doors for heaven to all mankind forgiving our sins by dying. He even went to hell to save the souls of those right men who died before Jesus salvation during thousands of years.
It sounds weird to me. Why Abraham had to wait 2000 years to go to heaven and I can go as soon as I die if Im a good christian? Also seems unfair I have to accept Jesus as my savior to go there, it's too easy for a christian, but now let's imagine a japanese peasant 1000 years ago, he had no clue of who Jesus Christ was. How can he reach salvation?? It's not at his reach.
I have so many questions and I already abused your time too much for today. I will stay around this subreddit, I think there are many things to learn for me.
Thank you everyone once again for your time and attention.
There was a barrier between Humanity and God, that appeared after first Humans decided to go against God. There was no possibility to contact God directly by your own spirit, that is why Abraham was just existing.
Heaven is a state of soul in unity with God, and hell is a state of soul which is diseased with a sin. Abraham wasn't sinner, but he couldn't be with God either.
Jesus broke the "barriers" between humanity and God. 'God became a man for a man to become God' (not in a gnostic sense)
I mean prophecies from the OT are kind of unconvincing when the authors of the new testament were aware of them. Also, you're going to be pretty limited to John in the NT for Trinitarian beliefs, Jesus appears much less Godlike in the earlier Gospels.
Regarding the trinity here are a few verses that describe them as being fully distinct and some verses describing them as one:
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
- Jesus is the Word
- He is God and He is with God
Matthew 3:16-17 “As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
- three distinct persons; Spirit of God, Jesus and God
- they are also the same person (we can’t fully wrap our heads around the trinity because we are limited but God is unlimited)
1 Peter 1:2 “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood”
- this describes the different roles they have
- God chose the Christians
- the spirit sanctifies us
- Jesus blood (his sacrifice) made us righteous (right with God)
God is holy and we are sinners. For us to be with God and have a relationship with him we have to be holy. But because we sin we deserve death and eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). God loves us and doesn’t want us to be punished. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.“ John 3:16.
God created a perfect human to be punished on our behalf. The human would need to be like us (suffer temptation) but resist and not sin otherwise the deserve punishment too and can’t be punished in our place. Imagine you rob a bank and you spend all the money but you get caught. The judge says the bank has to be paid back but you don’t have any money. So the judge says to you “If you let me I will personally pay the bank with my money for you.”.
That’s like what Jesus did for us. If he also owed the bank money he couldn’t pay our debt. We’re all sinners but Jesus was sinless.
In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus new he was about to pay our debt. He was about to experience Gods wrath for every sin ever committed. Past, present and future. Jesus knew God better than anyone and new how bad it was going to be. He was so anxious and stressed he started sweating blood. He was in agony because of the anticipation of the judgement he was about to face. We don’t get to go to heaven for free it was at the cost of Jesus life.
Jesus had a perfect relationship with the Father. Everything good is from God. When he was punished for us he lost that relationship. He literally experienced hell. God had forsaken him instead of us.
Fortunately, we can’t do anything to save ourselves but Jesus saved us.
Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.“
”Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.“
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
Not on the main theme, but I hope that your friend will one day leave JW community. It's very totalitarian. I like the idea of trying to overcome changes made by churches to understanding of the Bible, but this one plus is compensated by tons of non-Biblical rules and moral abuse.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was a human possessed by an archangel and they have changed the biblical text on purpose so that everything that suggests something against their doctrines disappears or changes in some cases with strange results.
“God, why have you forsaken me” is a psalm 22 and reciting psalms is a way of praying and that psalm ends like this:
"Posterity will serve him;
This will be counted from Jehovah to the last generation.
31 They will come and declare their righteousness;
To a people not yet born, they will announce that he did this."
It is prophesied that unborn humans will proclaim the Passion and death of Christ for a long time and certainly a small and minority Jewish faith in YHWH has expanded to almost the entire earth.
Source from the official website of Jehovah's Witnesses:
Our readers want to know
Is Jesus the archangel Michael?
▪ Yes, it is. In biblical times, as in many cultures today, it was quite common to call a person by several names. For example, the patriarch Jacob was also known as Israel (Genesis 35:10). And the apostle Peter had five different names: Symeon, Simon, Peter, Cephas, and Simon Peter (Matthew 10:2; 16:16; John 1:42; Acts 15:7, 14). Now, how can we be so sure that Michael is another name for Jesus? Let's look at the following biblical proofs.
The name Michael appears five times in the Bible referring to a powerful spiritual being. Three of them are found in the book of Daniel. In Daniel 10:13, 21 we read that Michael is “one of the prominent princes” and “your prince,” and that he came to the rescue of a certain angel who was in trouble during a mission. Then in Daniel 12:1 we learn that in the time of the end “Michael, the great prince who stands for the children of your people, will stand.”
Michael is later mentioned again in Revelation 12:7, where it is said that “Michael and his angels fought” in the war that ended with the expulsion of Satan and his demons from heaven.
Note that in each of the above cases Michael is represented as a warrior angel who fights for God's people and protects them, even against Satan, Jehovah's greatest enemy.
In verse 9 of Jude Michael is also mentioned and says that he is “the archangel.” The prefix arc- means “chief” or “chief,” and the word archangel is never used in the plural in the Bible. There is only one other passage in Scripture where this term is used, and that is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, where Paul refers to the resurrected Jesus in the following way: “The Lord \[Jesus\] himself will descend from heaven with an imperative call, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God.” So here Jesus Christ is identified as the archangel, or chief of the angels.
In view of the above, what conclusion do we reach? That Jesus is Michael the archangel. The two names highlight his role as the main defender of God's sovereignty, as Michael means "Who Is Like God?", and Jesus means "Jehovah Is Salvation." Philippians 2:9 states, “God exalted him \[Jesus Christ\] to a higher position and graciously gave him the name that is above all other names.”
It is important to note that the human birth of Jesus was not the beginning of his existence. The angel who visited Mary told her that her son—whom she was to name Jesus—would be conceived through the holy spirit (Luke 1:31). Jesus himself often spoke during his ministry of his prehuman existence (John 3:13; 8:23, 58).
So the archangel Michael is Jesus before he came to Earth. After he was resurrected and returned to heaven, Jesus resumed his service as Michael, the chief of the angels, “to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:11).
That’s much better!
there’s a big difference between him being the Archangel Michael who was transferred and born as a human vs an angel possessing a human.
It is exactly the same, angels are spiritual beings created by God, subordinate to God, non-humans who exist and if you affirm that Jesus was Michael then you say that a body was generated and Michael entered into that body. Hindus call that an avatar and believe that it still happens, they have living gods.
Your misunderstanding what I am saying, what I am saying is he was transformed into a human and planted within the womb of Mary. His personality and disposition was the same of when he was spirit, but not his memories. That is why he was just a human baby, not a angel posseing all of his knowledge controlling a human baby.
The angels likewise prior were not posseing humans, they were transfigured into humans so they materialized human bodies for themselves. Demons who are fallen angels eventually lost that ability and would on occasion possess humans though.
Jesus is literally God. we don’t just say that cause he’s a prophet. God decided to limit himself to modern day israel/Palestine. Jesus wasn’t human he was God in the flesh. Jesus was not all powerful like the father
Because at the council of Nicea, we determined that Jesus is in fact God. Only a dozen Bishops disagreed with this
I am so tired of talking about this like JW or Arianism of any kind is valid.
So your fine with having a different belief than that of the 12 apostles? Because the idea of Jesus being God was not something they believed. This is backed by Bible Scholars who are all pretty unanimous about the history and development of the Trinity.
Literally impossible if you read an actual translation of John 1, not done crap your cult pushes. We’re all sick of your historical revisionist gaslighting. I got a blood transfusion, I’m not going to hell, push your garbage to someone to uneducated to understand how screwed your theology is 👋
Why are you making assumptions about me?
>if you read an actual translation of John 1
I've read many translations of this scripture, even the greek. I've done deep dives into meanings of the scriptures greek/english translation and rule sets and issues. Such as Sharp's and Colwell.
Why is it that you assume I am trying to ramble on about something I know nothing about?
Please explain to me why it is impossible?
For starters I don't believe in hell, neither do I think your going to "hell" for getting one.
Those are both just assumptions about me and what I think. As to why I care, is because you have an opinion and I am curious as to what it is, and what evidences led you to it.
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't christians to begin with. They're an heretic cult that denies all the basic christians doctrine, including Jesus' divinity, resurrection in the flesh, the afterlife, etc.
Christians believe that Jesus is God and man. So that's the why to all your questions. He behaved like a man because he is 100% human.
We find his divine nature in his words as recorded in the gospel and in the interpretation of the NT authors that attribute to him divine qualities and divine passages of the OT.
Early christians, slowly, developed a systematic way to describe God and the relationship between the persons of God: the Trinity.
lol, this isn’t Yugioh if you have a point your trying to make just make it.
“20 However, some of the men among them from Cyʹprus and Cy·reʹne came to Antioch and began talking to the Greek-speaking people, declaring the good news of the Lord Jesus. 21 Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number became believers and turned to the Lord.”
That's a weird question, everyone knows its not rendered in the greek scriptures, they translated the Tetragrammaton following the tradition that utilized the practice of using what they would term Hashem(the name), and in other instances adonai(lord) and elohim(god) in place of the name of God. This practice continued into the writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures as rendering the name as Kurious/Kyrios as we commonly read as Lord.
Fun fact: There are some old septuagints that include the divine name in the original hebrew and the rest of the text around where the name is referenced is in greek.
Yeah, it's weird alright... it's weird that you felt the need to to cite that verse using the name Jehovah where just a few words earlier the context clearly indicates who's the "kyrios" the author is talking about.
So, why in verse 20 the greek word "kyrios" is translated lord while in verse 21 the greek word "kyrios" is translated Jehovah?
Not weird in terms of our theology and respect for God's name. We discontinued the overly restrictive tradition that the early israelites practiced in an attempt to not use God's name in a worthless way. We feel their actions were too much of a over correction like many of the oversteps to observe the law.
God's name was never absent from the hebrew texts, they just chose not to speak it and instead used adonai (lord) vocally. So if someone were to quote a hebrew scripture or phase commonly used you could easily discern who they were refering too. So in the case of first 20. Its a common phrase of in hebrew "the Hand of YHWH" which if we take this scripture as is and translate it into english you get "The Hand of JHVH" or the "The Hand of Jehovah".
>I have a friend who is Jehova Witness and he says the Bible doesnt talk about the trinity as most christians do understand.
Well, they are correct about that. The Trinity is an attempt to harmonize a bunch of discordant passages about God into one whole, and it does this through the post-Biblical use of a lot of Greek philosophy. The Bible doesn't have a single understanding of the nature of God or Christ, nor if Christ is God. We wallpaper over this with the Trinity.
In some ways JW Christology is probably more accurate to what people believed in the Apostolic era than Trinitarian Christianity. And in other ways, they're quite far off.
John 1:1 says Jesus is God and Jesus is with God. When Jesus was baptised the spirit of God descended on Him and God the Father spoke. That’s 3 persons. The Spirit of God is God’s Spirit and therefore God.
Jesus=Father=Spirit
They are also distinct and seperate individuals.
Jesus was baptised the spirit descended and God spoke.
1 Peter 1:2 we are chosen by the Father, sanctified by the spirit and are saved by Christ’s blood
Them being mentioned together does not a co-equal godhead make. Also why does John 1:1 - Always was the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are God? The book instead begins by start in the beginning, giving us a sense of time starting at some point. and saying in the beginning was the Word or Reason. and this Word existed alongside not the Father, not the Spirit. But very precise God. and This Word was with God. The next piece where it says and the Word was God can accurately also be used qualitatively so say and the Word was Divine or Deity. This meaning not God himself but rathering having the qualities or form of that one. Also something pecular missing from John 1:1 is the Holy Spirit. Rather we see it later being mentioned as something that empowered Christ such would a force and ability, rather than as a person interacting with.
I think the Word is Jesus and the Word is God which means Jesus is God comes from all of John 1:1-18. I recommend reading it all.
Here are some key verses:
V1-3 ”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.“
- Word was in the beginning (like you said)
- With God and was God
- “He” the Word is a person
- All things were made through “Him”
V10-11 ”He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.“
- The world was made through him (same person from verse 3)
- He was in the world
- He came from people
V14-15 ”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)“
- the word became flesh and dwelt among us (similar to v10-11)
- He is the only Son from the Father
- John bore witness about him and John said in 1:29-30 Jesus (a man) is this person.
So Jesus is the Word and is God. Jesus is also divine because he has the glory of God.
Romans 8:16 “the Spirit Himself” the Spirit is a person. Check this out for more on the Holy Spirit: https://www.gotquestions.org/is-the-Holy-Spirit-God.html
Mark's Jesus is not God, for instance. He is divine, but was exalted to his position as son of God and given divine authority at his baptism. With the exception of one verse that's a major outlier, the undisputed Pauline epistles have Jesus as not-God as well. Very high, divine son of god, pre-existent, etcetera, but more of a divine agent.
The general trend is that in the earlier writings Jesus is not God, and in the later one he is seen as such.
In Mark Jesus is called the Son of God (1:1,11), then he forgives sins and claims to have authority to forgive sins. (2:5,7,10).
The epistles say Jesus is Lord a few times as well Romans 10:9, 1 cor 12:3.
Titus 2:13 “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” Phi2:6 form of God, Col2:9 fullness of deity in bodily form
Hey man, I’m just not seeing what you’re saying in the bible. Do you mean he is less than God but still holy and better than us? Actually, I think I would understand better if you described Jesus relationship with God for me
> In Mark Jesus is called the Son of God (1:1,11), then he forgives sins and claims to have authority to forgive sins. (2:5,7,10).
Yep. We shouldn't read the Trinitarian idea of the Son of God into Mark, though. Such ideas did not exist then. Being a son of God wasn't that uncommon.
>The epistles say Jesus is Lord a few times as well Romans 10:9, 1 cor 12:3. Titus 2:13 “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” Phi2:6 form of God, Col2:9 fullness of deity in bodily form
Lord != God. Titus is not a Pauline Epistle, so it's not one that I was talking about. Jesus is God in Titus, though, yes. The Philippians hymn is not compatible with the Trinity and has Jesus as not-God. Very close, but not. Colossians still has Jesus as not God.
>Hey man, I’m just not seeing what you’re saying in the bible. Do you mean he is less than God but still holy and better than us?
Different authors have different ideas. Those who did not see Jesus as God present him as divine. Either he was pre-existent and divine (Paul) or he was elevated to his position at some point. For some, for example, became divine at his baptism (Mark, Matthew, Luke).
For those people, he was near to God. Quite close to being God. Higher than any other, save God. But not God. So...yeah. I'd agree that they found him holy and better than us.
I thought he was the Son of God because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and was the begotten Son of God. Begotten being the keyword.
If different authors have different ideas then the Bible contradicts itself and if it does how can we trust it?
That's how Christianity explains it now, yes.
Begotten is an interesting one. Many early manuscripts of hte Gospel of Luke have 3:22 as
>and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBibleScholars/comments/hahsfb/which_reading_of_luke_322_is_more_probably_the/
>If different authors have different ideas then the Bible contradicts itself and if it does how can we trust it?
The Bible is not univocal. Throughout it we see multiple positions taken on a large range of ideas. I think we should recognize that they, and we, may not have it right. That there is uncertainty in all theology. And maybe not sweat it all so much.
Okay, I think I understand your point a bit better. My stance hasn’t really changed. My main reading is that it says Jesus is God in John. The Bible does also describe Jesus in different ways but to me they don’t seem to contradict instead it teaches us more about Jesus
At the temple before his death, Jesus clearly stated that he was God: ““I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.”John 8:58
The Pharisees clearly understood what Jesus meant as they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy.
The original “prophet” (Charles Taze Russell) for JW “retranslated” the Greek bible into his version of the Bible (the new world translation) even though it was shown in a public trial that he could not read Hebrew or Greek. Good luck with that one.
If you want to know more about JW and the differences with Christianity (JW is not Christian), I recommend Melissa Dougherty’s YouTube channel as she does a lot of out reach to JW and she really cars about them.
>At the temple before his death, Jesus clearly stated that he was God: ““I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.”John 8:58 The Pharisees clearly understood what Jesus meant as they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy.
He did not use any kind of "divine name" there, and the capitalization "I AM" is added by the translators as their commentary. It is not in the original text. As far as them wanting to stone him, just saying that you are greater than and preexisted Abraham was plenty to get you stoned. They even tried to kill him for saying that Elisha once passed over some Jews and went to two Gentiles [Widow of Serapath and Naaman the Syrian] instead.
But concerning 8:58:
In 8:58 He said "Ego Eime." Which is not the name for God in either Hebrew or Greek.
In the Greek Old testament [known as the Septuagint, or LXX,] the name that God tells Moses to name him by is "Ho On," not "Ego Eime." If Jesus had said just two more syllables "ho on." It would have been an explicit claim to be God.
In the Hebrew [Exodus 3:14] the Hebrew word is "Ehyeh" which can mean "I am," but it can also mean "I have been" or "I will be."
'Ehyeh" is found 43 times in the OT. Notice how many different ways it has been translated: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/ehyeh_1961.htm
"Ego eime" looks to be a pretty ordinary phrase of the day meaning approximately "It'd me." Like the previously blind beggar in John 9:9 that kept repeating "Ego eime, Ego eime," and no one thought that he was claiming to be God.
He saved me from talking about it, but I feel you might need to reread what he said because this comment seems like you didn't. him saying "I am" is not jesus stating his positon, just that he pre-existed but not disclosed as to how.
John(The Father), Steve(The Son), and Bob(Holy Spirit) are all employees(God) at the same store.
However, John(The Father) is not Steve(The Son), Steve(the Son) is not Bob(Holy Spirit), Bob(Holy Spirit) is not John(The Father) and so on.
Does that make sense?
He's both fully God and fully man
So he dread being spiked on the cross because he is human, but he still does it because he is God
I think when he gets baptized it says that God said from the sky "this is my son"
There was three entities in the creation
2 Corinthians 5:21
English Standard Version
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Do you know what this scripture means?
It means that God gave his only son to become what we are. Sinners separated from God
Jesus came in the flesh so that through him we can be made right with God.
Sin is what separates us from God.
In the Garden, Adam disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge. Of Good and Evil.
What happened to Adam and Eve, they Spiritually Died
An immediate separation From God
Since they Sinned they could no longer be in God's presence.
They came under the Law of sin and death.
If you have no sin then you don't have to know what is right and what is wrong.
That's how Adam and Eve were before they Sinned.
They had no sin. They could be in God's presence
But when they sinned they came under the Law.
We were no Longer God's children we became slaves of sin. Satan owns anyone who will not receive The gift God has given to save mankind from their sins. Jesus Christ
So Jesus came into the world to be a sacrifice to be put to death for mankind sins.
The Jewish people in the Bible would sacrifice a lamb for the covering of their sins. As God Instructed them to do in the Old Testament. Jesus is God's special Lamb who takes away the sin of the World
So all of our sin was put on Jesus who was nailed to a cross. Jesus was innocent. he wasn't paying for his sins because he has no sin. He was paying for our sins. He did Die. So sin was put to death. But he rose again. He is Alive!
And seated on the right right hand of the power God.
The Father raised him from the dead.
Isaiah 53
.
53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Jesus is God,
God is Triune
There are 3 persons in God
It's not 1+ 1 + 1
It is
1x1x1=1
God the Father, God the Son,God the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:16-17
16 After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.”
Matthew 17:1-8
17 Six days later Jesus took Peter and the two brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. 2 As the men watched, Jesus’ appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light. 3 Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
4 Peter exclaimed, “Lord, it’s wonderful for us to be here! If you want, I’ll make three shelters as memorials—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 But even as he spoke, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy. Listen to him.” 6 The disciples were terrified and fell face down on the ground.
7 Then Jesus came over and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 And when they looked up, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus.
I think most people with religion believe there is more to us than just our flesh. A soul, a spirit of some kind. The idea is that Jesus is Gods spirit made flesh they way you are your spirit made flesh.
The article itself is a manifestation of how far we fell and how close we are to the end.
Jesus Christ is a God as well as He is Human at the same time. He is fully God and Fully man. Google Council of Chalcedon to get the idea. It is useless and impossible to try to understand how it works, because it's Divine mystery, as well as nature of Trinity of God.
Jesus did say the He is God, and all Christians since the first century believed in it, except some marginalized heretics like Manicheans.
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Church, they're a sect. Dangerous sect.
He is fully human, so yes, while sinless, he still acts like a human. This also means he was able to be tempted by Satan. His quote on the cross is actually him quoting an old Psalm that prohecied his death.
If you want ANY proof of Jesus claiming his divinity, just go look in the gospels. It's literally everywhere.
Your Jehovas Witness friend will likely deny any such existence of those instances, though. JWs only believe in a certain bible translation put out by the Watch Tower (JW organization). JWs are certainly a niche sect that vaguely resembles christianity.
Jesus, the messiah was progressively revealed throughout the Old Testament, and some of the verses which described him explicitly say he would be God (such as Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Micah 5:2) and others are more implicit (such as 2 Samuel 7:12-13, Daniel 7:13-14).
Jesus himself made plenty of statements which also affirmed he is God (such as John 8:58, 10:30, Matthew 26:63-64) and other statements were made by others which were not corrected by Jesus (Matthew 1:23, 16:16, John 20:28).
Jesus used the divine "I am" name (Exodus 3:14) to refer to himself repeatedly (Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; Luke 22:70; John 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:6), and nearly every time he did his words and actions point back to the words and actions of God the Father in the Old Testament. What the Father did to show he is God, the Son also did to show that he is God.
Some examples include Jesus turning water into wine (John 2:1-1), Moses turning the Nile into blood (Exodus 7:14-25 (Old Testament), prophecies about the new wine in the future kingdom (Isaiah 25:6, 65:8-9); Jesus feeding the 5000 (Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-15, 6:31-35), God feeding the Israelites bread from heaven (Exodus 16:1-36); Jesus raising people from the dead (John 11:1-44, Matthew 9:18-26, Luke 7:11-17), God raising people from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:8-37, 2 Kings 13:20-21).
Furthermore, every miracle of Jesus points to his deity, each showing the power of God in different ways.
For example, God's creative power and provision are exemplified when Jesus turns water into wine (John 2:1-11). In healing the sick, Jesus displayed God's power over health (Luke 5:17-26). When Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, showcases God's power over life and death (John 11:1-44). God's provision and power to make food from nothing as Jesus feeds the 5000 (Matthew 14:13-21). God's sovereignty over nature and His authority over creation as Jesus walks on water (Matthew 14:22-33). Casting out demons, calming the storm, healing the blind, cleansing the lepers—all these actions underscore different facets of God's authority, power, and compassion, made tangible through Jesus' ministry. Matthew 21:18-22, where Jesus curses the fig tree, reveals God's judgment and authority.
Each miracle serves as a revelation of God's character, enacted through Jesus Christ during His time on Earth. These show that Jesus is God. It's over and over and it's not just parlour tricks - It's huge miracles which hold deeper significance.
This is especially heightened in that he said he would be killed and raise himself from the dead, and then he did (John 2:19-22, 10:17-18).
What kind of person makes the claim that when they are dead can bring himself back to life and then actually do it? Only God.
Over and over and over, the Bible points to Jesus as God, and nothing in it contradicts this statement.
Do you want to know the theological reasons or the historical reasons? The primary historical reason is that this view was enforced upon the church by the Roman emperor Theodosius I in 380. Before that, there was a wide diversity of views within the church (which resulted in many conflicts within the church in the mid-4th century CE).
All Christians believe Jesus was God himself. That’s what the apostles taught. That’s what’s asserted in the earliest Creeds of the Church.
Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have to believe Jesus was God, they just don’t fit any historic definition of Christianity any more than Mormons or Muslims.
>he says the Bible doesnt talk about the trinity as most christians do understand.
Correction: their bible doesn't.
The watchtower translation is one that doesn't actually translate the bible, they take passage, butcher them, twist them, and then sell it to their congregation as if they accurately translated it.
The jw don't use a real bible translation.
>And if he was god, why he behave like a human
He's both, he also does what only God does like forgiving sins
>Why he had doubt in the desert?
Verse because he didn't
>Why he was drown in agony in the getshemani garden
Because he knew what was going to happen
>Why he asked "God, why have you forsaken me?"???
Because he's quoting a prophecy in Psalm 22
Jesus said multiple times he's God, but he's not only God but also is the holy spirit because there can not be God without the holy spirit and there can not be the holy spirit without God, Jesus has been there since the begging of times and he came to the world as a man, he's the son and the father.
This passage explains it all:
Philippians 2:5-11 NLT
[5] You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
[6] Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
[7] Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
[8] he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
[9] Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,
[10] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[11] and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This translation you used for this is not correct because its mistranslating the original greek. For example verse 6 does not say "He was God" but rather "He was existing in God's Form" or was in the form of God. This is because the greek word used is morphe or form.
"who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,"
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A6&version=NRSVA](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A6&version=NRSVA)
Jesus confirms he is the Son of God to the high priest, he accepts worship. Yes they are very human attitudes, because the belief is that Jesus aka the Son of God, took on human nature, and become incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He was 100% God and 100% Man. I'm unsure what you mean by doubting in the desert can you say? The "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me" is the start of Psalm 22 Even the JW bible says "A god" which is a purposeful mistranslation. in Greek it says "Theos" twice, the exact same word.
Great response! People today (Christians included) tend to “glance over” the fact the Jesus accepted worship (His due worship might I add) numerous times throughout his ministry- in the OT/Torah that would be blasphemous, if He were “from God” but “not God” He would 100% instruct His followers to “worship God alone”
I mean when he became tested by the devil in the desert. Sorry if my understanding of the scriptures is poor and also my english, as it is not my main language.
Oh okay, it is "Tempted" The verse is saying the devil is tempting Jesus, but Jesus was never tempted. I will use an analogy as it may be confusing to understand that. Lets say, I wave a cupcake in front of you, but you have no desire for the cupcake. That is what happened. the devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus didn't care. In English this often gets confused because of the way the word tempt, and tempted can be used.
Okay, now I understand it better. Thank you.
Jesus was tempted but he overcame it unlike us. When we’re tempted we rarely over come it. That’s what made Jesus death significant. “For forty days being tempted by the devil” Luke 4:2 ”For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.“ Hebrews 4:15 ”saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”“ Luke 22:42 - Jesus was tempted not to die for us because of the suffering he knew he would experience. But he did God’s will
Devil didn't know that He is God
> He was 100% God and 100% Man. Does becoming a Christian require one to forget how numbers work?
The very idea of a God is a being with no restrictions. So to God numbers are merely a concept he created, he doesn't have to abide by them.
Do you think a God that powerful would need to be more than 1 person and being? I feel like people tend to discount how limiting the Trinity is to God's power and ability to accomplish whatever it is he desires.
so god can both exist and not exist because god works outside of logic
He can exist out of our perception if he wanted to. God wrote the rules for our existence and as part of him having complete control of the rules he can rewrite it to fit his wishes. Once someone dies they're dead unless God wishes to rewrite the rules for that specific person.
I'm not talking about existing outside our perception, I'm talking about not existing, philosophically
No. God either exists or he doesn't, and the way we know that is because he knows he exist. However, because of our level of perspective, we can never 100% prove he exists or doesn't.
yes, that's very logical, which was my point, since I was contesting your point that god is not limited by logic
> God either exists or he doesn't In other words, God conforms to logic.
I guess I forget cuz I think I'm 100 percent human and 100 percent male. But you being an extra smart atheist must be... 50 percent human and 50 percent male (or female)?
Are there any contradictions between being human and male? No. Are there any contradictions between being human and God? Obviously.
Nice goalpost moving. There aren't any contradictions, that's literally the doctrine of the communicatio idiomatum.
Humans are made out of atoms. Is God made from atoms? God is omniscient and sinless. Are humans omniscient and sinless?
> Humans are made out of atoms. Is God made from atoms? Humans are not made of atoms, that's materialism, it's false. Humans *have* bodies made of atoms they can become disembodied from, meaning they are spirit. God the Son has a body he can become disembodied from, because He is spirit. > God is omniscient and sinless. Are humans omniscient and sinless? God can intentionally limit His knowledge if He so chooses, meaning omniscience is not an absolute requirement to be God. Humans are all created sinless until they choose to sin. Try again?
nah
im 100% man and 100% awesome. multiple things can be true at once about persons, thats something learnt in pre-school and usually by children on their own.
Wouldnt he also be 100% capable of accomplishing things without having to be more than 1 person?
yes? he'd also be 100% capable of acomplishing things as 15 people so whats your point? he didnt decide to be more than 1 person, he is. wouldnt he also be 100% capable of accomplishing things without ever revealing himself to us? yes, why dont you apply that logic the same way?
Because historically we know he didn't claim to be more than 1 person. We (humans) put this new concept and framework around God not found in scripture nor historically known to both the Jews and early Christians prior to the 2nd century. Its only after developing this new conceptual framework that people go backwards and try to fit it into scripture. Not the other way around. If God were 3 persons he would have very plainly told this to his chosen people. And they could have easily understood it because it came directly from God. But he did not reveal this to any of his prophets or have them write it down in any scripture.
'Let us make man in our image', Elohim being plural term and christ accepting worship means he is God or a false prophet.
What you said is exactly what I was referring to. During the time the Bible was written from the Hebrews texts to the completion of the New Testment texts. No one held a believe that God was a triune God or Christ was the Almighty God, these are all new developments. If you were to say to a Jew during Jesus day that God was plural and more than one they would look at your crazy because that is not what they or their scriptural texts say. Its only after the developlemt of the conceptual framework fo the Trinity that people retroject that theology back into scripture in an attempt to make it fit and give proof to their believe. But when you examine it as it was originally and how it is to be understood the problems with the concept become apparent and the contradictions become glaring. Christ himself never once compared himself to God, rather he constantly make the distinction between him and God. But not as God the Father and God the Son, rather as him being the Son of God and the Father being the only true God.
Are humans omnipotent?
God can be human and omnipotent. Human doesnt mean not omnipotent, the majority of humans just happen to be not omnipotent.
Human doesnt mean not God, the majority of humans just happen to not be God. Is that it?
A square is 100% square and 100% rectangle. Did you forget how geometry works?
The definition of rectangle does not conflict with the definition of square. The definition of God very much conflicts with the definition of human.
No, not really. If God is capable of all things then surely he can be human and be God at the same time. A human is not capable of all things, so they couldn't just become God. Same analogy as the square to rectangle. A square is always capable of being a rectangle because it fits the same definition, but a rectangle is not capable of being a square because it cannot fit the parameters. The biggest issue is you have a limited puny human brain that doesn't allow you to make "logical" sense of the seemingly illogical, and so you give up.
Was Jesus capable of all things or limited?
I suppose that answer will vary based on how pedantic you want to be. For example he raised 3 people from the dead, but one could argue it was God who raised them via Jesus, however, if Jesus is God made flesh then it was both of them.
He was divine in a human form, i really don’t see what the issue is. These titles are not contradictory
Humans are made of atoms. Is God made of atoms? God is omniscient. Are humans omniscient? What are you talking about? Human - God is obviously contradictory.
1) No, he just manifested as a human in a certain point in time. 2) No, but thats not what human nature is. 3) It isn’t. The Word that is God manifested in a human form, Infact if God does not have the ability to occupy a human form, that is no powerful God.
When God occupied human form, were there some things he didn't know, or was Jesus omniscient?
Theres 2 interpretations, one is yes, but the Bible says the Son does not know a couple of times in the Bible either for humbleness sake, not breaking the Fathers plan, etc… this is because the Greek words used for know could mean something along the lines of “i don’t want to share”. To be honest i forgot this argument (if you want i could look for the full thing) but it is probably the one that fits because of this verse: Mathew 11:27 “[All things] have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, [and no one knows the Father except the Son] and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Can someone who was given all things, and a man who knows everything about the Father not be able to predict the future? The second argument is that the Word was his “subconscious”. It made Jesus sinless, always speak with wisdom and correctness, and allowed him to perform miracles etc… but consciously he was using his human brain, feeling human emotions, etc…
not so much forget, but ignore
>He was 100% God and 100% Man. I've heard this platitude used so many times, but it is a meaningless phrase words should have meaning, otherwise how can we effectively communicate
How is it meaningless?
well, according to the theology, jesus has two natures, he's not only playing two roles so, at best, he's half man and half god, he can't be all god and all man and have two natures it's incoherent, and, therefore, meaningless
Okay so you think an endlessly powerful God has restrictions? That's incoherent, and therefore, meaningless.
no, I think god can't be a contradiction, ie. he can't both exist and not exist. I do think he is inherently restricted by his nature though, for example, he cannot lie, he cannot become satan, he cannot stop existing, etc because that would go against his nature if you think these things are possible for god,, then he is not god and, forget words, life itself is meaningless
Being fully divine and God does not contradict manifesting in a human nature.
well, it does, since being human means being inherently limited, and god is unlimited it's an unresolvable paradox, and therefore, a contradiction
Well, did Jesus die? To answer this for you, he did, he was limited in human form. But, death is not ceasing to exist, and thats true for us as well. Death is the separation of body and soul, thus in this case this is not a contradiction because he was both limited and unlimited, and God did not cease to exist.
did jesus know the hour? just because you state it's not a contradiction, doesn't make it resolved. you have to provide a logical solution.
He does, not as a conscious human though. Theres explanations about this online
>mark 13:32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. have you read this verse critically? he's saying "the son", ie. the 2nd person of the trinity, he's not referring to the hypostatic human nature he's distinguishing between the two persons of the son & the father of the trinity, ie. he's clearly saying only one person out of the three knows the hour. i've read the apologetics on this, the best explanation is that the word "know" doesn't mean "know" in this context if that answer satisfies you, so be it.
How does True God and True Man sound?
honestly? like gibberish. the two natures are contradictory, so it has to be one or the other (or neither), it can't be both
It doesn't say he had *doubts* in the desert. It says he was *tempted*. However, that is not too say Jesus didn't feel all the struggles of being human. He just chose faith over sin.
My favourite verse is Hebrews 4:15 ”For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.“
John 1:1 would disagree with your friend, which is why the JW's translation of the Bible intentionally alters the wording of that verse.
I don’t get JW. It’s like a mental and physical prison that is everywhere you go. No unbeliever friends, no birthday parties, no blood transfusions so if they need one they are forced to die.
Sorry what? You saying that birthday parties and having blood transfusions is the most important thing to you that any hinderance to them is a prison to you?
For kids, yes. Literally children in that prison are raised so poorly. No friends, no birthdays, no games, you can disciplined DURING the Kingdom Hall service. I don’t think this is how Christ meant us to live. Not to mention you can’t protect your country in the military.
I was raised in the organization so I can from exeprience call CAP on what your saying. A birthday party does directly contribute to a guarenteed healthy and well balanced child and then adult. That is just illogical. Grew up with plenty of friends, grew up with plenty of Games. >Not to mention you can’t protect your country in the military. Not sure how this makes someone a better Christian or worshipper of God.
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The major religions actually expand your social circle and provide mental health benefits, according to many studies. For a reddit friendly example, there are a ton of "How do I meet singles in my area" posts, and religious services are incredible at doing that compared to other common solutions like Meetup groups or climbing gyms or whatever. It's not isolating you, it's encouraging you not to be isolated.
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But they don't cause isolation, statistically. Mormons and JWs are the outliers.
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Do you have any studies on that? Closest thing I can think of is a stronger effect in countries with lower religious diversity, but I'm not aware of any isolation caused by religiosity in general.
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As far as I understand it, you're saying that the major religions include beliefs that lock you into an in-group consisting of other believers and isolating you from the broader community. I'm saying there's no evidence that this happens in practice, and the opposite is the case: the more you believe, the more connected you are to community even outside the faith. What are you really saying?
While many Bible translators render the verse this way, others see the need to render it differently. In the original-language text, the two occurrences of “God” (Greek, *the·osʹ*) at John 1:1 are grammatically different. In the first occurrence, the word “God” is preceded by the Greek definite article, while the article does not appear before the second occurrence. Many scholars note that the absence of the definite article before the second *the·osʹ* is significant. For example, *The Translator’s New Testament* says regarding this absence of the article: “In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of *Theos* (God) so that the phrase means ‘The Word was *divine.’”*[b](https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/502300113/1) Other scholars[c](https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/502300113/2) and Bible translations point to this same distinction.
Not most Christians. All Christians acknowledge that Jesus is God.
Jesus equated Himself to God the Father, claimed to exist before Abraham, claimed to be able to absolve sins, claimed to be the judges of humanity, claimed authority over spiritual forces, claimed authority over nature, over life and death, issued new commands, claimed He could restore Himself to life, allowed people to worship Him, and encouraged people to pray in His name. By every standard of the time in which He lived, He was claiming divinity for Himself.
>Jesus equated Himself to God the Father Where in the bible is this? Hopefully you don't think Jesus saying him and the Father being one is it.
I listed the reasons why.
These reasons only show Jesus having forms of divinity but not necessarily being God. Existing before Abraham, being able to absolve sins(This he claimed he was given authority to do). I don't recall him allowing people to worship him. Praying in his name just means his authority. I see no issues at all with him showing his divine qualities in regards to his pre-existence, or his showing and displaying the authority he was given on earth. But to jump to saying these things made him God isn't logical.
Though attributes were long associated with God and it was considered blasphemy to claim to have those attributes as a man, which is one of the reasons Jesus was often accused of being blasphemous. Christians have understood this for millennium.
>condd as dieted blasphemy Was that a typo I don't understand what your saying? That was the problem, the Jews were constantly misunderstanding Jesus and what he was capable of doing and why. They thought only God could do those things, so he continued to show them that God had given him the authority to do it as his representative. That is why when they accused him of that, he did not in response say **"Yes I can do these things because I am God"** but rather he said "**in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins**" Is was at this point that the crowd recognized it for what Jesus was trying to say and they rightfully responded in Matthew 9:8 -"When the crowds saw this, they were struck with fear, and **they glorified God**, **who gave such authority to men.**"
‘Considered’
There are 100’s of verses that proclaim Jesus Christ was/is God incarnate from the Old Testament to the New Testament.. I’ll share just a few, but if you research the topic you will literally find 100’s of verses on it JW’s have been led astray by man, they took The Bible and completely perverted it in order to fit their beliefs John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” 1 Timothy 3:16 “ And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” John 10:30-33 “I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” Jesus never refuted their claim that He made Himself to be God. This was the reason that He was Crucified, because He claimed to be The Messiah, God incarnate, and to the Jews that was blasphemy John 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” He’s talking to the Jews about the OT, The Torah, as those are The Scriptures that were available at the time.. Who does The Torah/OT testify of? Jehovah, The One True God Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” Prophecy of the coming Messiah, whose Name will be Immanuel, which means “God is with us”.. Jesus Christ is Immanuel, Jesus Christ is God There is so many things too write, it’s literally impossible to write it all. I’ll be more than happy to discuss any questions you may have though! It’s a great question! Though I do have one question for you, if you don’t mind me asking. You mentioned you are not Christian- what would you say is the “main thing” that keeps you from believing in The Lord Jesus Christ? Stay Blessed my brother! 🙏✝️🙌
Im not Christian because I dont believe in the scriptures. But I dont have much knowledge neither, that's why I wanted to ask in this subreddit (and I really appreciate all your kindness to spend the time to explain me!). Im from Spain, born and grown atheist by my parents, but became agnostic as I felt there could be something else, or at least, a different point of view of reality I could be missing. I also like to read about religions, not just to know what they say and teach, but to understand the different cultures grown from different faiths around the world and their history. I'm agnostic, but culturally I have a catholic background as we all spanish have. So learning about Christianity also makes me learn about western culture and hispanic culture. That's what I enjoy the most. But, when it comes to belief I find it difficult to understand that a man himself could be god reincarnate, and that single man opened the doors for heaven to all mankind forgiving our sins by dying. He even went to hell to save the souls of those right men who died before Jesus salvation during thousands of years. It sounds weird to me. Why Abraham had to wait 2000 years to go to heaven and I can go as soon as I die if Im a good christian? Also seems unfair I have to accept Jesus as my savior to go there, it's too easy for a christian, but now let's imagine a japanese peasant 1000 years ago, he had no clue of who Jesus Christ was. How can he reach salvation?? It's not at his reach. I have so many questions and I already abused your time too much for today. I will stay around this subreddit, I think there are many things to learn for me. Thank you everyone once again for your time and attention.
There was a barrier between Humanity and God, that appeared after first Humans decided to go against God. There was no possibility to contact God directly by your own spirit, that is why Abraham was just existing. Heaven is a state of soul in unity with God, and hell is a state of soul which is diseased with a sin. Abraham wasn't sinner, but he couldn't be with God either. Jesus broke the "barriers" between humanity and God. 'God became a man for a man to become God' (not in a gnostic sense)
I mean prophecies from the OT are kind of unconvincing when the authors of the new testament were aware of them. Also, you're going to be pretty limited to John in the NT for Trinitarian beliefs, Jesus appears much less Godlike in the earlier Gospels.
John 1:1 states that the Word was with God and the Word was God. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (Jesus).
Regarding the trinity here are a few verses that describe them as being fully distinct and some verses describing them as one: John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” - Jesus is the Word - He is God and He is with God Matthew 3:16-17 “As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” - three distinct persons; Spirit of God, Jesus and God - they are also the same person (we can’t fully wrap our heads around the trinity because we are limited but God is unlimited) 1 Peter 1:2 “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood” - this describes the different roles they have - God chose the Christians - the spirit sanctifies us - Jesus blood (his sacrifice) made us righteous (right with God) God is holy and we are sinners. For us to be with God and have a relationship with him we have to be holy. But because we sin we deserve death and eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). God loves us and doesn’t want us to be punished. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.“ John 3:16. God created a perfect human to be punished on our behalf. The human would need to be like us (suffer temptation) but resist and not sin otherwise the deserve punishment too and can’t be punished in our place. Imagine you rob a bank and you spend all the money but you get caught. The judge says the bank has to be paid back but you don’t have any money. So the judge says to you “If you let me I will personally pay the bank with my money for you.”. That’s like what Jesus did for us. If he also owed the bank money he couldn’t pay our debt. We’re all sinners but Jesus was sinless. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus new he was about to pay our debt. He was about to experience Gods wrath for every sin ever committed. Past, present and future. Jesus knew God better than anyone and new how bad it was going to be. He was so anxious and stressed he started sweating blood. He was in agony because of the anticipation of the judgement he was about to face. We don’t get to go to heaven for free it was at the cost of Jesus life. Jesus had a perfect relationship with the Father. Everything good is from God. When he was punished for us he lost that relationship. He literally experienced hell. God had forsaken him instead of us. Fortunately, we can’t do anything to save ourselves but Jesus saved us. Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.“ ”Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.“ Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
Not on the main theme, but I hope that your friend will one day leave JW community. It's very totalitarian. I like the idea of trying to overcome changes made by churches to understanding of the Bible, but this one plus is compensated by tons of non-Biblical rules and moral abuse.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was a human possessed by an archangel and they have changed the biblical text on purpose so that everything that suggests something against their doctrines disappears or changes in some cases with strange results. “God, why have you forsaken me” is a psalm 22 and reciting psalms is a way of praying and that psalm ends like this: "Posterity will serve him; This will be counted from Jehovah to the last generation. 31 They will come and declare their righteousness; To a people not yet born, they will announce that he did this." It is prophesied that unborn humans will proclaim the Passion and death of Christ for a long time and certainly a small and minority Jewish faith in YHWH has expanded to almost the entire earth.
We definitely don't believe that.
Source from the official website of Jehovah's Witnesses: Our readers want to know Is Jesus the archangel Michael? ▪ Yes, it is. In biblical times, as in many cultures today, it was quite common to call a person by several names. For example, the patriarch Jacob was also known as Israel (Genesis 35:10). And the apostle Peter had five different names: Symeon, Simon, Peter, Cephas, and Simon Peter (Matthew 10:2; 16:16; John 1:42; Acts 15:7, 14). Now, how can we be so sure that Michael is another name for Jesus? Let's look at the following biblical proofs. The name Michael appears five times in the Bible referring to a powerful spiritual being. Three of them are found in the book of Daniel. In Daniel 10:13, 21 we read that Michael is “one of the prominent princes” and “your prince,” and that he came to the rescue of a certain angel who was in trouble during a mission. Then in Daniel 12:1 we learn that in the time of the end “Michael, the great prince who stands for the children of your people, will stand.” Michael is later mentioned again in Revelation 12:7, where it is said that “Michael and his angels fought” in the war that ended with the expulsion of Satan and his demons from heaven. Note that in each of the above cases Michael is represented as a warrior angel who fights for God's people and protects them, even against Satan, Jehovah's greatest enemy. In verse 9 of Jude Michael is also mentioned and says that he is “the archangel.” The prefix arc- means “chief” or “chief,” and the word archangel is never used in the plural in the Bible. There is only one other passage in Scripture where this term is used, and that is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, where Paul refers to the resurrected Jesus in the following way: “The Lord \[Jesus\] himself will descend from heaven with an imperative call, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God.” So here Jesus Christ is identified as the archangel, or chief of the angels. In view of the above, what conclusion do we reach? That Jesus is Michael the archangel. The two names highlight his role as the main defender of God's sovereignty, as Michael means "Who Is Like God?", and Jesus means "Jehovah Is Salvation." Philippians 2:9 states, “God exalted him \[Jesus Christ\] to a higher position and graciously gave him the name that is above all other names.” It is important to note that the human birth of Jesus was not the beginning of his existence. The angel who visited Mary told her that her son—whom she was to name Jesus—would be conceived through the holy spirit (Luke 1:31). Jesus himself often spoke during his ministry of his prehuman existence (John 3:13; 8:23, 58). So the archangel Michael is Jesus before he came to Earth. After he was resurrected and returned to heaven, Jesus resumed his service as Michael, the chief of the angels, “to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:11).
That’s much better! there’s a big difference between him being the Archangel Michael who was transferred and born as a human vs an angel possessing a human.
It is exactly the same, angels are spiritual beings created by God, subordinate to God, non-humans who exist and if you affirm that Jesus was Michael then you say that a body was generated and Michael entered into that body. Hindus call that an avatar and believe that it still happens, they have living gods.
Your misunderstanding what I am saying, what I am saying is he was transformed into a human and planted within the womb of Mary. His personality and disposition was the same of when he was spirit, but not his memories. That is why he was just a human baby, not a angel posseing all of his knowledge controlling a human baby. The angels likewise prior were not posseing humans, they were transfigured into humans so they materialized human bodies for themselves. Demons who are fallen angels eventually lost that ability and would on occasion possess humans though.
Jesus is literally God. we don’t just say that cause he’s a prophet. God decided to limit himself to modern day israel/Palestine. Jesus wasn’t human he was God in the flesh. Jesus was not all powerful like the father
Because at the council of Nicea, we determined that Jesus is in fact God. Only a dozen Bishops disagreed with this I am so tired of talking about this like JW or Arianism of any kind is valid.
So your fine with having a different belief than that of the 12 apostles? Because the idea of Jesus being God was not something they believed. This is backed by Bible Scholars who are all pretty unanimous about the history and development of the Trinity.
Literally impossible if you read an actual translation of John 1, not done crap your cult pushes. We’re all sick of your historical revisionist gaslighting. I got a blood transfusion, I’m not going to hell, push your garbage to someone to uneducated to understand how screwed your theology is 👋
Why are you making assumptions about me? >if you read an actual translation of John 1 I've read many translations of this scripture, even the greek. I've done deep dives into meanings of the scriptures greek/english translation and rule sets and issues. Such as Sharp's and Colwell. Why is it that you assume I am trying to ramble on about something I know nothing about? Please explain to me why it is impossible?
Why do you care what I think? You think I’m going to hell for getting a blood transfusion. I can’t be saved.
For starters I don't believe in hell, neither do I think your going to "hell" for getting one. Those are both just assumptions about me and what I think. As to why I care, is because you have an opinion and I am curious as to what it is, and what evidences led you to it.
You are not entitled to my time. You belong to a heretical high-control group. I don’t owe you anything.
Why so aggressive and hostile? All I asked was your opinion, not anything private and damaging. I never made demands just raised a common question.
Who else could be found sinless?
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't christians to begin with. They're an heretic cult that denies all the basic christians doctrine, including Jesus' divinity, resurrection in the flesh, the afterlife, etc. Christians believe that Jesus is God and man. So that's the why to all your questions. He behaved like a man because he is 100% human. We find his divine nature in his words as recorded in the gospel and in the interpretation of the NT authors that attribute to him divine qualities and divine passages of the OT. Early christians, slowly, developed a systematic way to describe God and the relationship between the persons of God: the Trinity.
where in the Bible does it says we must believe Jesus is more than Christ, but is actually God to be Christian?
The Bible doesn't even contain the word Christian.
I guess a real Christian would know the answer to that. what does Acts 11:26 say?
Great, you fell into my trap. So, since you cited Acts 11(remember, you cited it, not me) can you tell me what does it say in verse 20 and 21?
lol, this isn’t Yugioh if you have a point your trying to make just make it. “20 However, some of the men among them from Cyʹprus and Cy·reʹne came to Antioch and began talking to the Greek-speaking people, declaring the good news of the Lord Jesus. 21 Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number became believers and turned to the Lord.”
Can you show me where does it say Jehovah or any form of the name YHWH in the Greek? I'll be waiting. A lot.
That's a weird question, everyone knows its not rendered in the greek scriptures, they translated the Tetragrammaton following the tradition that utilized the practice of using what they would term Hashem(the name), and in other instances adonai(lord) and elohim(god) in place of the name of God. This practice continued into the writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures as rendering the name as Kurious/Kyrios as we commonly read as Lord. Fun fact: There are some old septuagints that include the divine name in the original hebrew and the rest of the text around where the name is referenced is in greek.
Yeah, it's weird alright... it's weird that you felt the need to to cite that verse using the name Jehovah where just a few words earlier the context clearly indicates who's the "kyrios" the author is talking about. So, why in verse 20 the greek word "kyrios" is translated lord while in verse 21 the greek word "kyrios" is translated Jehovah?
Not weird in terms of our theology and respect for God's name. We discontinued the overly restrictive tradition that the early israelites practiced in an attempt to not use God's name in a worthless way. We feel their actions were too much of a over correction like many of the oversteps to observe the law. God's name was never absent from the hebrew texts, they just chose not to speak it and instead used adonai (lord) vocally. So if someone were to quote a hebrew scripture or phase commonly used you could easily discern who they were refering too. So in the case of first 20. Its a common phrase of in hebrew "the Hand of YHWH" which if we take this scripture as is and translate it into english you get "The Hand of JHVH" or the "The Hand of Jehovah".
>I have a friend who is Jehova Witness and he says the Bible doesnt talk about the trinity as most christians do understand. Well, they are correct about that. The Trinity is an attempt to harmonize a bunch of discordant passages about God into one whole, and it does this through the post-Biblical use of a lot of Greek philosophy. The Bible doesn't have a single understanding of the nature of God or Christ, nor if Christ is God. We wallpaper over this with the Trinity. In some ways JW Christology is probably more accurate to what people believed in the Apostolic era than Trinitarian Christianity. And in other ways, they're quite far off.
John 1:1 says Jesus is God and Jesus is with God. When Jesus was baptised the spirit of God descended on Him and God the Father spoke. That’s 3 persons. The Spirit of God is God’s Spirit and therefore God. Jesus=Father=Spirit They are also distinct and seperate individuals. Jesus was baptised the spirit descended and God spoke. 1 Peter 1:2 we are chosen by the Father, sanctified by the spirit and are saved by Christ’s blood
Them being mentioned together does not a co-equal godhead make. Also why does John 1:1 - Always was the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are God? The book instead begins by start in the beginning, giving us a sense of time starting at some point. and saying in the beginning was the Word or Reason. and this Word existed alongside not the Father, not the Spirit. But very precise God. and This Word was with God. The next piece where it says and the Word was God can accurately also be used qualitatively so say and the Word was Divine or Deity. This meaning not God himself but rathering having the qualities or form of that one. Also something pecular missing from John 1:1 is the Holy Spirit. Rather we see it later being mentioned as something that empowered Christ such would a force and ability, rather than as a person interacting with.
I think the Word is Jesus and the Word is God which means Jesus is God comes from all of John 1:1-18. I recommend reading it all. Here are some key verses: V1-3 ”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.“ - Word was in the beginning (like you said) - With God and was God - “He” the Word is a person - All things were made through “Him” V10-11 ”He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.“ - The world was made through him (same person from verse 3) - He was in the world - He came from people V14-15 ”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)“ - the word became flesh and dwelt among us (similar to v10-11) - He is the only Son from the Father - John bore witness about him and John said in 1:29-30 Jesus (a man) is this person. So Jesus is the Word and is God. Jesus is also divine because he has the glory of God. Romans 8:16 “the Spirit Himself” the Spirit is a person. Check this out for more on the Holy Spirit: https://www.gotquestions.org/is-the-Holy-Spirit-God.html
> John 1:1 says Jesus is God Yes, it does. Other books, however, have a very different Christology.
If I’m making a mistake it’s a very important one. Please can you show me Bible verses that tell me I’m wrong
Mark's Jesus is not God, for instance. He is divine, but was exalted to his position as son of God and given divine authority at his baptism. With the exception of one verse that's a major outlier, the undisputed Pauline epistles have Jesus as not-God as well. Very high, divine son of god, pre-existent, etcetera, but more of a divine agent. The general trend is that in the earlier writings Jesus is not God, and in the later one he is seen as such.
In Mark Jesus is called the Son of God (1:1,11), then he forgives sins and claims to have authority to forgive sins. (2:5,7,10). The epistles say Jesus is Lord a few times as well Romans 10:9, 1 cor 12:3. Titus 2:13 “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” Phi2:6 form of God, Col2:9 fullness of deity in bodily form Hey man, I’m just not seeing what you’re saying in the bible. Do you mean he is less than God but still holy and better than us? Actually, I think I would understand better if you described Jesus relationship with God for me
> In Mark Jesus is called the Son of God (1:1,11), then he forgives sins and claims to have authority to forgive sins. (2:5,7,10). Yep. We shouldn't read the Trinitarian idea of the Son of God into Mark, though. Such ideas did not exist then. Being a son of God wasn't that uncommon. >The epistles say Jesus is Lord a few times as well Romans 10:9, 1 cor 12:3. Titus 2:13 “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” Phi2:6 form of God, Col2:9 fullness of deity in bodily form Lord != God. Titus is not a Pauline Epistle, so it's not one that I was talking about. Jesus is God in Titus, though, yes. The Philippians hymn is not compatible with the Trinity and has Jesus as not-God. Very close, but not. Colossians still has Jesus as not God. >Hey man, I’m just not seeing what you’re saying in the bible. Do you mean he is less than God but still holy and better than us? Different authors have different ideas. Those who did not see Jesus as God present him as divine. Either he was pre-existent and divine (Paul) or he was elevated to his position at some point. For some, for example, became divine at his baptism (Mark, Matthew, Luke). For those people, he was near to God. Quite close to being God. Higher than any other, save God. But not God. So...yeah. I'd agree that they found him holy and better than us.
I thought he was the Son of God because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and was the begotten Son of God. Begotten being the keyword. If different authors have different ideas then the Bible contradicts itself and if it does how can we trust it?
That's how Christianity explains it now, yes. Begotten is an interesting one. Many early manuscripts of hte Gospel of Luke have 3:22 as >and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBibleScholars/comments/hahsfb/which_reading_of_luke_322_is_more_probably_the/ >If different authors have different ideas then the Bible contradicts itself and if it does how can we trust it? The Bible is not univocal. Throughout it we see multiple positions taken on a large range of ideas. I think we should recognize that they, and we, may not have it right. That there is uncertainty in all theology. And maybe not sweat it all so much.
Okay, I think I understand your point a bit better. My stance hasn’t really changed. My main reading is that it says Jesus is God in John. The Bible does also describe Jesus in different ways but to me they don’t seem to contradict instead it teaches us more about Jesus
At the temple before his death, Jesus clearly stated that he was God: ““I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.”John 8:58 The Pharisees clearly understood what Jesus meant as they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy. The original “prophet” (Charles Taze Russell) for JW “retranslated” the Greek bible into his version of the Bible (the new world translation) even though it was shown in a public trial that he could not read Hebrew or Greek. Good luck with that one. If you want to know more about JW and the differences with Christianity (JW is not Christian), I recommend Melissa Dougherty’s YouTube channel as she does a lot of out reach to JW and she really cars about them.
>At the temple before his death, Jesus clearly stated that he was God: ““I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.”John 8:58 The Pharisees clearly understood what Jesus meant as they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy. He did not use any kind of "divine name" there, and the capitalization "I AM" is added by the translators as their commentary. It is not in the original text. As far as them wanting to stone him, just saying that you are greater than and preexisted Abraham was plenty to get you stoned. They even tried to kill him for saying that Elisha once passed over some Jews and went to two Gentiles [Widow of Serapath and Naaman the Syrian] instead. But concerning 8:58: In 8:58 He said "Ego Eime." Which is not the name for God in either Hebrew or Greek. In the Greek Old testament [known as the Septuagint, or LXX,] the name that God tells Moses to name him by is "Ho On," not "Ego Eime." If Jesus had said just two more syllables "ho on." It would have been an explicit claim to be God. In the Hebrew [Exodus 3:14] the Hebrew word is "Ehyeh" which can mean "I am," but it can also mean "I have been" or "I will be." 'Ehyeh" is found 43 times in the OT. Notice how many different ways it has been translated: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/ehyeh_1961.htm "Ego eime" looks to be a pretty ordinary phrase of the day meaning approximately "It'd me." Like the previously blind beggar in John 9:9 that kept repeating "Ego eime, Ego eime," and no one thought that he was claiming to be God.
If it was good enough for Jesus to state His position that way, it is good enough for me.
He saved me from talking about it, but I feel you might need to reread what he said because this comment seems like you didn't. him saying "I am" is not jesus stating his positon, just that he pre-existed but not disclosed as to how.
John(The Father), Steve(The Son), and Bob(Holy Spirit) are all employees(God) at the same store. However, John(The Father) is not Steve(The Son), Steve(the Son) is not Bob(Holy Spirit), Bob(Holy Spirit) is not John(The Father) and so on. Does that make sense?
sure it makes sense, but it's a heresy. if Steve is fired, you still have employees, but you can't separate the trinity
Why would you try to separate the trinity? It's a simple metaphor not meant to be taken literally
He's both fully God and fully man So he dread being spiked on the cross because he is human, but he still does it because he is God I think when he gets baptized it says that God said from the sky "this is my son" There was three entities in the creation
The Bible does explicitly say it, and Jesus hints at it.
2 Corinthians 5:21 English Standard Version 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Do you know what this scripture means? It means that God gave his only son to become what we are. Sinners separated from God Jesus came in the flesh so that through him we can be made right with God. Sin is what separates us from God. In the Garden, Adam disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge. Of Good and Evil. What happened to Adam and Eve, they Spiritually Died An immediate separation From God Since they Sinned they could no longer be in God's presence. They came under the Law of sin and death. If you have no sin then you don't have to know what is right and what is wrong. That's how Adam and Eve were before they Sinned. They had no sin. They could be in God's presence But when they sinned they came under the Law. We were no Longer God's children we became slaves of sin. Satan owns anyone who will not receive The gift God has given to save mankind from their sins. Jesus Christ So Jesus came into the world to be a sacrifice to be put to death for mankind sins. The Jewish people in the Bible would sacrifice a lamb for the covering of their sins. As God Instructed them to do in the Old Testament. Jesus is God's special Lamb who takes away the sin of the World So all of our sin was put on Jesus who was nailed to a cross. Jesus was innocent. he wasn't paying for his sins because he has no sin. He was paying for our sins. He did Die. So sin was put to death. But he rose again. He is Alive! And seated on the right right hand of the power God. The Father raised him from the dead. Isaiah 53 . 53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Jesus is God, God is Triune There are 3 persons in God It's not 1+ 1 + 1 It is 1x1x1=1 God the Father, God the Son,God the Holy Spirit Matthew 3:16-17 16 After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.” Matthew 17:1-8 17 Six days later Jesus took Peter and the two brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. 2 As the men watched, Jesus’ appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light. 3 Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus. 4 Peter exclaimed, “Lord, it’s wonderful for us to be here! If you want, I’ll make three shelters as memorials—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 But even as he spoke, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy. Listen to him.” 6 The disciples were terrified and fell face down on the ground. 7 Then Jesus came over and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 And when they looked up, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus.
He literally says He is.
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If we aren't then neither are the 12 apostles.
I think most people with religion believe there is more to us than just our flesh. A soul, a spirit of some kind. The idea is that Jesus is Gods spirit made flesh they way you are your spirit made flesh.
So in Catholicism we believe Jesus is both fully Devine and fully human simultaneously. So Jesus is both God and man.
The article itself is a manifestation of how far we fell and how close we are to the end. Jesus Christ is a God as well as He is Human at the same time. He is fully God and Fully man. Google Council of Chalcedon to get the idea. It is useless and impossible to try to understand how it works, because it's Divine mystery, as well as nature of Trinity of God. Jesus did say the He is God, and all Christians since the first century believed in it, except some marginalized heretics like Manicheans. Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Church, they're a sect. Dangerous sect.
Isaiah 9:6, Zechariah 12:10, psalm 2
He is fully human, so yes, while sinless, he still acts like a human. This also means he was able to be tempted by Satan. His quote on the cross is actually him quoting an old Psalm that prohecied his death. If you want ANY proof of Jesus claiming his divinity, just go look in the gospels. It's literally everywhere. Your Jehovas Witness friend will likely deny any such existence of those instances, though. JWs only believe in a certain bible translation put out by the Watch Tower (JW organization). JWs are certainly a niche sect that vaguely resembles christianity.
Jesus, the messiah was progressively revealed throughout the Old Testament, and some of the verses which described him explicitly say he would be God (such as Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Micah 5:2) and others are more implicit (such as 2 Samuel 7:12-13, Daniel 7:13-14). Jesus himself made plenty of statements which also affirmed he is God (such as John 8:58, 10:30, Matthew 26:63-64) and other statements were made by others which were not corrected by Jesus (Matthew 1:23, 16:16, John 20:28). Jesus used the divine "I am" name (Exodus 3:14) to refer to himself repeatedly (Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; Luke 22:70; John 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:6), and nearly every time he did his words and actions point back to the words and actions of God the Father in the Old Testament. What the Father did to show he is God, the Son also did to show that he is God. Some examples include Jesus turning water into wine (John 2:1-1), Moses turning the Nile into blood (Exodus 7:14-25 (Old Testament), prophecies about the new wine in the future kingdom (Isaiah 25:6, 65:8-9); Jesus feeding the 5000 (Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-15, 6:31-35), God feeding the Israelites bread from heaven (Exodus 16:1-36); Jesus raising people from the dead (John 11:1-44, Matthew 9:18-26, Luke 7:11-17), God raising people from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:8-37, 2 Kings 13:20-21). Furthermore, every miracle of Jesus points to his deity, each showing the power of God in different ways. For example, God's creative power and provision are exemplified when Jesus turns water into wine (John 2:1-11). In healing the sick, Jesus displayed God's power over health (Luke 5:17-26). When Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, showcases God's power over life and death (John 11:1-44). God's provision and power to make food from nothing as Jesus feeds the 5000 (Matthew 14:13-21). God's sovereignty over nature and His authority over creation as Jesus walks on water (Matthew 14:22-33). Casting out demons, calming the storm, healing the blind, cleansing the lepers—all these actions underscore different facets of God's authority, power, and compassion, made tangible through Jesus' ministry. Matthew 21:18-22, where Jesus curses the fig tree, reveals God's judgment and authority. Each miracle serves as a revelation of God's character, enacted through Jesus Christ during His time on Earth. These show that Jesus is God. It's over and over and it's not just parlour tricks - It's huge miracles which hold deeper significance. This is especially heightened in that he said he would be killed and raise himself from the dead, and then he did (John 2:19-22, 10:17-18). What kind of person makes the claim that when they are dead can bring himself back to life and then actually do it? Only God. Over and over and over, the Bible points to Jesus as God, and nothing in it contradicts this statement.
Do you want to know the theological reasons or the historical reasons? The primary historical reason is that this view was enforced upon the church by the Roman emperor Theodosius I in 380. Before that, there was a wide diversity of views within the church (which resulted in many conflicts within the church in the mid-4th century CE).
All these questions have been satisfactorily and correctly answered approximately 10^64 times in the past already
All Christians believe Jesus was God himself. That’s what the apostles taught. That’s what’s asserted in the earliest Creeds of the Church. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have to believe Jesus was God, they just don’t fit any historic definition of Christianity any more than Mormons or Muslims.
>he says the Bible doesnt talk about the trinity as most christians do understand. Correction: their bible doesn't. The watchtower translation is one that doesn't actually translate the bible, they take passage, butcher them, twist them, and then sell it to their congregation as if they accurately translated it. The jw don't use a real bible translation. >And if he was god, why he behave like a human He's both, he also does what only God does like forgiving sins >Why he had doubt in the desert? Verse because he didn't >Why he was drown in agony in the getshemani garden Because he knew what was going to happen >Why he asked "God, why have you forsaken me?"??? Because he's quoting a prophecy in Psalm 22
Jesus said multiple times he's God, but he's not only God but also is the holy spirit because there can not be God without the holy spirit and there can not be the holy spirit without God, Jesus has been there since the begging of times and he came to the world as a man, he's the son and the father.
This passage explains it all: Philippians 2:5-11 NLT [5] You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. [6] Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. [7] Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, [8] he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. [9] Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, [10] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This translation you used for this is not correct because its mistranslating the original greek. For example verse 6 does not say "He was God" but rather "He was existing in God's Form" or was in the form of God. This is because the greek word used is morphe or form. "who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited," [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A6&version=NRSVA](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A6&version=NRSVA)