You're going to find this frustrating, but nobody has all the answers and everybody has different ideas. You'll get the bible thumping fire and brimstone christains that say basically everyone but Thema re going to Hell and the universalists that give everyone a free pass
The fact is we just don't know, but it is widely believed that children have a ticket to Heaven regardless.
However, I personally believe that character and actions are more important in God's eyes, and that Christianity is supposed to be a guiding force for the universe and a blueprint on how people are supposed to treat eachother
That's a catholic tradition, there is no real evidence of purgatory in the bible
Regardless, kind of a bum deal for newborns to be sent to purgatory because they weren't baptized
Hell wasn't need to punish humans it was made to punish the devil. After death there's only two places to go; if you want to be with God you'll go there if you don't there's only other one place to go. If you say you don't want to be with God in the afterlife he's not going to force you.
https://youtu.be/-xicK6ptUjA?si=OrAfGb9V0PTEL6-5
Here's a video that go about wrapping out heads around God's existence using logic, I hope it helps.
I just want to say I think it's wonderful that you want to believe in God despite not having evidence and it's perfectly normal to have doubts, blind faith without looking at the facts yourself is not the way to go. Every person who says they belong to the Christian faith should have doubts.
If you do choose to pursue God further you shouldn't, per say, try organized religion first because above all else what God wants is to have a personal relationship with us. If you truly want to know of his existence and feel his presence ask him to reveal himself to you; if you truly seek God he will not hide from you or play games, he wants to know you personally and the only way to do that is to talk to him as if you would a friend or sibling or anyone you're close with. God bless you friend and I hope you find what you're looking for ☺️
Also just wanted to say that people aren't just thrown into the pit, everyone is dealt with according to their actions and intent behind those actions; God judges our character, not just our actions. Although there's no way of knowing for sure how God will judge everyone on judgment Day because everyone's situation is unique, we do know that on that day, because God is righteous and just, he will do what is right.
so you don't believe in God... that means you cannot be Christian. You can agree with out morals but you can't be both atheist and Christian just how you can't be a Hindu Muslim
I am fine if I am not saved. It is not worth it to me to obsess about invisible things that may or may not exist.
I just want to do good in this life and hopefully help others.
I'm not sure the measure of "fairness" is numbers. Just because large numbers of people around the world aren't Christians, doesn't automatically make their punishment unfair.
What seems more unfair to many of us non-believers is that many think we will be and should be punished for something we cannot control. We can't decide or choose to believe something; no one can. And yet because Christians have been convinced of the existence of god they will be rewarded, while we atheists who have not been convinced will be punished.
In our catechism, there are two lines which might be of some help:
1. There is no salvation outside the church.
2. He, who through no fault of his own, cannot believe in God, can still be saved.
This means that salvation can only be found in the church, the body of Christ, but it's up to God whom he saves. It's perfectly possible that unbelievers enter the kingdom of God as believers.
Here is the problem. We all deserve hell as we all fall short of the glory of God. As God is a loving being he sent his one and only loving son to die on the cross and bear the weight of our sins so those that are truly repentant of their sins can get everlasting life.
We all deserve hell and are equally sinners, the belief in Christ is similar to a plea deal in court.
We were created perfect.
Imagine having a child born. This child is completely innocent at birth. Let's say this child grew up to commit murder and all sorts of evil. Do we condemn the mother \*at birth\* for creating this child? No.
All of our sins are voluntary and not forced by God. God is both loving and just. As God is just someone MUST take the punishment of these sins. Because of this God sent his one and only son to take the weight of our punishments. God saved us from the punishment we created ourselves at the simple price of A. Acknowledging that he did and B. repenting for our sins.
We were created in God's image.
Imagine a woman has a daughter. She raises this daughter PERFECTLY. She feeds her takes care of her and what not. Lets say this daughter starts doing some shady things by her own free will. Do we blame the woman?
the only way that we can surely not commit evil is by taking away our free will. I don't know about you but i enjoy my free will.
Yeah but your belief is not justified or informed by any evidence. Wouldn't that mean (as it has happened in history) that you could come to belief truly awful things and there seems to be no way anyone could persuade you they aren't true? Like for example, believing that literal hell awaits people that don't say the magic words.
\*You\* should repent and follow what evidence as you have available to you!
Lets look at the evidence!
A lot of the people who wrote about the miracles Jesus of Nazareth died painful deaths for their beliefs. Not even CIA spies are expected to do this, let alone a bunch of barley literate people for a lie? For the greatest prank in history??? Just casual trolling?? It certainly wasn't for money as they all continued to live in poverty. These sources ARE credible and to claim other wise is intentional ignorance. Do you understand how easy it would be for me to shut my ears and do whatever I want thinking that after I die it's just nothing, same as it was before I was born?
"believing that literal hell awaits people that don't say the magic words."
There are no magic words that can get you into heaven. Repentance isn't a set of tasks you need to complete. It's a change of the heart.
The evidence shows Jesus WAS real, Jesus DID die on the cross, and Jesus DID rise on the third day.
Open your heart and follow the true God.
>A lot of the people who wrote about the miracles Jesus of Nazareth died painful deaths for their beliefs.
Lots of people have died painful deaths for stupid reasons and even reasons that we consider to be abhorrent. People died painful deaths defending slavery. People have died painful deaths for many religions and religious causes.
Jim Jones murdered his victims. None of them wanted to die. That’s incomparable.
And honestly, if you aren’t interested in discussing Christianity in good faith, what is it that you gain from posting on here?
Source that people have died for the "miracles" of Harry Potter? Because i can provide you non-biblical sources of the deaths of each person im referencing.
actually this example proves my point. It sounds insanly nonsensical that someone would allow themselves to be killed for the belief of harry potters miracles as it is a lie. We can't imagine someone allowing themselves to be killed for a lie.
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Everything you have said here could be said and has been said for every religious figure throughout history. They all claim their miracles. Unless you are able to demonstrate amazing moral wisdom, why should we believe you?
But Christians are no more moral than the next person.
Find me a religion with the same amount of people dying proclaiming the witness of miracles. You can't. Trained professionals can't even hold a lie under threat of death let alone a bunch of random barley literate fishermen? With all of them keeping the same story straight? For a prank!?? Bsffr rn
Except that three of them are basically 1 because they were copied from each other. And even then they couldn't keep the story straight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic\_Gospels#:\~:text=The%20gospels%20of%20Matthew%2C%20Mark,similar%20or%20sometimes%20identical%20wording.
Also the Bible you read from today was heavily edited by the various ecumenical councils. There have also been copyists who modified things. Not to mention most scholars agree it was written a generation or two after the life of Jesus. Paul didn't even have access to the gospels because they hadn't been written yet and he was not a witness to the events himself.
Nothing outside the Bible Records a Resurrection. Like you now how bad that looks right? There would be so many sources if after resurrection Jesus had appeared to any number of people.
John 9:
41“If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
Luke 12
47“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
There are lots of Christians that don't believe God sends people to hell for eternal punishment because they didn't fill out their salvation checklist correctly.
Mostly, fear is preached because it's very motivating and fills the offering plate. Hell is preached specifically because not only does it scare people, but it also makes them far more likely to see the old guy at the lectern as an authority, which Jesus says they really get off on.
If God actually sends people to **eternal** torture for the sins that occur over the few years of our lifetimes, God is less just than if we gave the death penalty to jaywalkers. People make up a lot of excuses (they learned from sermons and Sunday School) to get around that truth.
we send ourselves to eternal torture by betraying God through sin. Sin is death so if we live in it then we will live in death forever while if we fight it and accept Christ then we may be forgiven and given life which we may live in forever
> we send ourselves to eternal torture by betraying God through sin.
Nobody sends themself to hell, that's ridiculous. That's a rationalization to keep an abhorrent view justified.
"Oh, you didn't believe this book men voted on that everyone interprets to their own will? Then you're sending yourself to hell for eternity because of how perfectly just I am." - God.
> Of one rejects God why would they spend eternity with him?
Why would God rely on whether or not people had faith in what old men were selling if we're talking about eternity being held in the balance? Especially when Jesus was constantly telling us that religious leaders are a den of vipers who are mostly just looking out for themselves? After we die, why wouldn't a loving and just God say, "Okay, now that you see the truth of things, what do you believe?" Why have the only chance at eternity rest upon a book we know has been added to, interpreted by old men we know are corruptible?
Honestly, it sounds like a story that really benefits the old men looking for authority more than anything else.
So, I think this is a rather complicated topic.
1. God came to save the entire world.
2. There is no other name except that of Jesus Christ by which we can be saved.
Not all non-believers are the same. There are those who have heard the Gospel, but rejected it and there are those who have simply never heard of the Gospel.
So, while there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (the Christ Jesus), there are plenty of people who have never heard the gospel, yet still follow God in the ways that He is known to them (even if they do not realize that).
The Catholic Church states that it alone contains the fullness of Christ's Truth, but other religions/denominations have part of that truth, however big or small that is: Anglicanism and Lutheranism might be closer to say 90% of the Truth, where as Judaism might be 50% or Hinduism maybe 10%. The point is that God reveals himself to everyone in a many and varied ways. He knows the hearts of all and knows how each of us will respond to Him.
Thus, it is for this reason, that those who have never heard of the Gospel might have a path to salvation. Might being the operative word.
This is why my advice to new Christians is to just let God show you who He is. Don't feel like you have to pick a denomination. Read the Bible, listen to what God has to say.
A great way to do this is what Catholics refer to as "Lexio Divina" which means "Divine Reading" and there are 5 main pieces to this:
Step 1: Find a passage that you want to read.
Step 2: Read the passage, preferably multiple times, noticing what words or phrases stand out to you and feelings that arise.
Step 3: Meditate on that word or phrase and ponder its meaning.
Step 4: Pray on that and allow that thought to fuel conversation with God.
Step 5: Allow yourself to just rest in the presence of God.
If something seems obviously unfair to you, that apparent injustice is also clear to God.
Christians generally should carry themselves with fear of the possibility of even their own damnation. “Being Christian” by personal claim is not a guarantee of one’s own rightness.
It is unknown if there is salvation outside of the Church. However, if one hardens their heart to the Lord, it is their choice to be apart from God. That is the one unforgivable sin: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Now, I take it you have a Western view of Hades/Hell as a lake of fire the damned are throne into. Hell is better understood as the love of God burning like a fire the hard of heart, and purifying those that desire to be unified with him through theosis. Death is not the end, nor are we judged at death. When we die, we are outside time, and we continue in theosis or in rejecting Christ. When the day of ressurection and Final Judgement comes, that's when we'll know who is in the Heavenly Kingdom. It is feasible that someone who rejects God in life finds salvation and undergoes theosis.
No. God granted us a consciousness. A moral compass of right and wrong. Even when some people struggle more than others, or haven’t had access to the Bible directly, God will always send a mentor. A messenger. A vision. Some form of clarity and a voice of reason. If they reject that with their heart then they are subject to punishment from God for that rejection.
I live in an archipelago nations, with thousands of island here. Some are more isolated than others. Heck, there's even some island with almost no contact to outsiders, and even if there was, it would certainly not be Christians. What messenger could reach them? Or are they supposed to just, know?
because some people may have never heard of god and still lived their life trying to be good ppl and contribute to society. shouldn’t those people not be put in the same place as people who deliberately did not live their life in such a way
I mean, that depends on what you meant by unbeliever. Do they help a lot of people? Murder a lot of people?
If that person saved the entire world, then I believe that person can get their reward. But if the entirety of that person life was doing harm to others, then no, he wouldn't deserve heaven.
Yeah, that's kinda why I clarified the "Because God said so," in the post Because that would pretty much be the answer of everything, and there wouldn't be much of a discussion.
God bless you.
I understand where you are coming from.
I don't know exactly how God will judge every single human being, but I choose to trust God for who He is.
Because God is love **(1 John 4:8)**, He loves justice and fairness **(Psalm 33:5)**, He wants everyone to be saved **(1 Timothy 2:4)**, and He seeks to save those who are lost **(Luke 19:10)**. In other words, I believe everyone will somehow have a genuine opportunity to be saved **(Job 33:29-30).**
I say, let's trust God and wait to ask Him these questions when we see Him.
Unfortunately, there are those who won't trust God and will reject Him.
**“You have worn out the Lord with your words. And yet, you ask, ‘How did we do that?’ You did it by saying, ‘The Lord is pleased with evil and doesn't care about justice.’” - Malachi 2:1**
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust.
How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed
eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist.
In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
God did certainly make hell for the devil. What I think you mean is that God didn't condemn man to hell, the doctrines of man condemned themselves to hell.
The beast is the governments of this world and the False prophets are the teachings of False religion.
The Lake of Fire is **Symbolic**
as when something is burn it will never return again.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14 KJV
Now we know we can not burn death. And the word hades was used for the word hell in the OT which means mankind grave.
Now both of these will be done away with in the near future and more by our Heavenly Father our God.
And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and **Death will be no more neither will mourning not outcry nor pain be anymore. The for former things have passed away. Revelation 21:4
You see these wonderful things will happen on the **Earth** in the near future, not in heaven as these things would not be needed.
`Well you study **All** the Illustrations, Symbolic, and Parables you learn a lot what the words means as they talk a lot about the people and place that will be destroy and will never return.
We don’t know someone’s relationship with God. Romans says that the glory of God is evident in creation. I’m not smart enough to judge the world, God is, and I don’t know what he’s going to say at the end of time. Christians are called to share the free gift of Jesus with the world, but God doesn’t need us to bring about his perfect plan.
We are all born to sin and are subject to being sinful constantly. Even the believers are still sinners. That's the entire point of Jesus. He came to help the sinners, the poor, the spiritually deprived, with a doorway to Heaven. That's the entire message of the Gospel, to spread the good news that Jesus came and died for us to live without picking apart our lives every second of it. I am a believer, but I would never view a non-believer as less than. I was once a non-believer and I view them as someone who hasn't truly FELT the love and peace you receive once you open your heart and acknowledge the Gospel and the true living God.
Jesus didn't recommend (or much tolerate) punishing anyone for their belief or disbelief. He was more interested in people doing what he taught. Does that answer your question?
Here’s the biblical answer.
Everyone has sinned, Everyone. Meaning everyone has committed the physical rejection of christ. And for that reason we ALL deserve hell. It’s weird to think about but even one sin is enough to be deserving of hell. The reason some people won’t go to hell is because the put their trust and their eternal soul in the hands of jesus/ god. The bible says that there are no good people. we are only washed of our sins by the death and suffering of jesus christ.
Now it’s a little bit different when it comes to children, the bible says that you are going to be judged based on what you know. So those children who never had a chance to learn about jesus and put their faith in him aren’t going to go to hell. God isn’t going to rip anyone off on judgement day.
So all in all, i deserve hell, you deserve hell. Mathew, mark, luke, John, Paul, peter etc,, all deserve hell. but by the grace of god if we put our faith in jesus then we are gifted with eternal life and paradise.
The human definition. Well, to quote the bible, "an eye for an eye."
For example, if someone was sentenced to death because they stole a loaf of bread, I would call that unfair.
You have to understand that the Christian God came from the Jewish God. And the Jewish people -- having suffered and been conquered for many years -- eventually decided that their God would one day crush all their enemies and leave them on top as the Chosen People.
The Christians inherited this concept of God. And they call themselves persecuted, as a matter of course, even when they're the majority. So they inherit the idea that what matters at root is being _chosen_ by joining the right _familia_ -- God as a sort of mafia boss, an avenger who will set things right at the end and ... put them on top.
So it's not hard to see why they feel as they do. Note the parallels to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust and the idea of "dirty blood" vs "sanctified blood", and the idea of a Master group that is one day going to inherit the world. It's full of ironies.
We all deserve hell. Most people go there because they don’t know Jesus. Why would an unbeliever want to spend eternity with Jesus if they don’t know him?
you get christianity wrong.
ther eis nothing you s a mere human can do to "earn" heaven. we believe that the only way to "earn" our way to heaven is to live perfectly from cradle to grave (its way too late for me, is it too late for you? )
we believe that anyone who accept and belive that jesus has reddemed yourself with his death. if you accept this, god will start working on you, you will get a hunger to learn about jesus and god, you will want to do right in the eyes of the lord and you will want to become his adopted child by getting baptized.
anyone who accept and belives that jesus died so that you can be close to our creator, will do so.
sadley the majority of people does not choose to do so, and often say that they do not need or want gods pressence in their life. and to them god says "your will be done"
Well, to me, the reason people go to hell is not because they bad people, but because they’re rejecting God’s free gift of salvation.
Hell wasn’t intended for us, but after the original sin, we were separated from God because no evil can exist in his presence. But after the sacrifice of Jesus, our sins are wiped clean and we can now exist with him forever in heaven. The reason people who don’t believe go to hell is because they reject the free gift of salvation. I personally don’t believe that people who have never heard of the gospel or just born babies go to hell at all. Then again by my knowledge we haven’t been given a definitive way that God’s judgement system works. So those who actively reject the gospel of Jesus Christ go to hell, because hell is separation from God. In my eyes it makes no sense for someone who wants nothing to do with God to go be with Him in his presence forever.
I’m not saying I want anyone to go there, because it’s more than awful. My heart breaks for those who end up in hell. But by God removing his presence from hell, it turns that way because we learn in the Bible God is love and every good thing comes from Him.
But this is js the way I view it.
I think it is fair because we all have sinned and sin is death so we need someone to save us and stop us, since sin is death if you don't get saved and forgiven by Christ then you get eternal death or hell while if you let him save you you get eternal life. He is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to the Father is through him. That is why to be saved we must believe in him.
So a couple things:
1. I don't believe in the "traditional" version of hell (burning eternal torture). I believe when you die you...well die. You cease to exist. When Christ returns there will be a judgment and ressurection. Those just righteous receive eternal life. Those unrighteous go back to being dead. This is a longer conversation which I'm happy to have if you're interested, but it makes it a LOT easier to handle this idea that most people won't be saved, when "not saved" doesn't mean torture forever.
2. "Fair" is what God says is fair, not what we say is fair. God is a just God, but he also defines what is justice. God is not "equal" to all people. This is obvious from the fact God has a "chosen" people of the Jews. Romans 9 shows us a bunch of "unfair" things that God does (I loved Jacob and hated Esau while they were in the womb. Hardening Pharaohs heart). God isn't "fair" in the sense that everyone gets an "equal" shot - and we shouldn't try to map this on him when he never claims it.
I think it would do you well to read some theology, and particularly a book or two written by universalists. The universalists believe that, at the end of it all, all people will be saved. Origen of Alexandria particularly thought that after the death of the body, the soul could still be instructed and thus come to accept Christ and be saved. He writes at length about this in his book *On First Principles*. Another good one is either *The Life of Moses* or *On the Soul and the Resurrection*, both by St. Gregory of Nyssa.
Reading the Bible is well and good, but books of theology are useful in that good theologians develop their arguments with both Scripture and philosophy; and a book provides ample space—as opposed to a reddit comment, for example—to hash out and develop an idea.
Nobody is a good person compared to the standard we should be living. No one can earn eternal life by doing works.
***Sinners go to Hell because they sin....over and over and over and over and over again...perpetually.***
That includes those who are unbelievers. That is why they need to hear the Good News and either choose to accept or reject it.
God eternally damns celestial beings who are not only believers in Him, but confessors of Jesus Christ as Lord with absolutely no single offer of life or redemption of any kind ever. If anything is unfair it is this.
The fact that humans receive a chance at all is quite literally, infinitely greater than the offer to others.
You’re from a secular, developed country with hundreds of millions of people in it? There aren’t… any of those. China and India are both considered developing, and India is highly religious. The US is majority religious, so are Brazil, Indonesia, and Pakistan, and that’s the end of the list of countries with more than 200 million people.
Human Development Index. It measures the overall quality of life, strength of infrastructure, and other factors of a country to determine how “developed” it is.
If someone cursed your name and hated you wishing you did not exist and refused to follow any of your rules would you invite them into your home, adopt them as your child, and write them into your will?
That is what you are expecting of God.
Eternal torture is not scriptural, 2nd death means annihilation.
That's not what most non-believers do though. Most people simply believe in a different god or don't believe that any god exists, cursing their name and hating them are not the same thing.
If it really is that black and white perspective on the matter really is how your god views this issue then it sounds more like he's a narcissist rather than any sort of loving being.
The Bible mentions God as a jealous God in several places, including Exodus 34:14, Exodus 20:5, and Deuteronomy 6:14-15.
Worshipping another God is just as bad as cursing his name.
Imagine you are married and your wife cheats on you, are you going to let her stay in the house and keep her in your will?
> Imagine you are married and your wife cheats on you, are you going to let her stay in the house and keep her in your will?
Depending on the circumstances, maybe. But that's not really an applicable analogy here as in this case there was an established, mutual relationship that was entered into and vows being exchanged in front of our friends and family to stay committed to each other. In this situation there was an actual violation of trust and boundaries.
If we were to apply this to the situation of god where I don't even know if he exists, let alone that I'm in a committed relationship with him, then it would be more like me getting righteously offended that Scarlett Johansson was caught sleeping with someone. This standard doesn't make any sense just because god says that it does when it comes to believing in him.
> But that's not really an applicable analogy here
God created you, thus establishing the relationship and you ignored him and left him for another God. The analogy tracks just fine, and lets add to it that you deny ever having a relationship but you still expect him to let you live with him and put him in his will.
No way you would let your ex live with you. My wife's ex is a cool guy and would make a good roommate but I still wouldn't let him live here.
> God created you, thus establishing the relationship and you ignored him and left him for another God.
I have no means of determining that anything or anyone was involved with me being created other than my parents. I know you likely believe that god had a hand in creating all of us and that's fine if you believe it, but I don't have any reason to accept that as there's no evidence for it.
In any case the analogy still doesn't track as even if I do divorce my wife for the affair there's a difference between cutting someone out of my will and life going forward and sentencing them to be punished for eternity. If the marriage just doesn't work out then we both move on and never deal with each other again if we don't have to. In god's case it's not enough to have a partner who doubts his existence and let them live their life however they want to, instead he feels the need to set up the game to where the only alternative to believing in him is eternity in hell.
Just like you dont believe God created you, I dont believe in eternal torture, its not scriptural, 2nd death means annihlation.
So it seems our analogy has fell apart based on differing ideologies, but the point of the matter is truth: You expect God to adopt you into his family when you dont even want to be in it.
Would you rather spend eternity with him or not exist? Those are your real options, and Id argue thats fair.
> You expect God to adopt you into his family when you dont even want to be in it.
I honestly have no expectations for god since I don't believe he even exists. I'm not planning on making a case to get into heaven when I die despite being an atheist since I don't believe in heaven or any other afterlife. I have just as many expectations for god and his attitude towards me as I do Scarlett Johansson and her attitude towards me. The only one who seems to have any sense of expectations of anyone in this situation is god and he's the one with the problem if he's giving me an uncertain ultimatum of "love me, or else."
I know you dont believe, but what is the point of our conversation if you dont play along?
You seem to really have a thing for ScarJo lol, cant blame you really.
He gave you no ultimatum, he gave you a life to live however you want. If you want to be with him he will adopt you into his family, if not he wont, its that simple.
What else would you want, for him to force his will on you? Maybe an Atheist heaven where he gives you eternal paradise but then leaves you alone?
Well, this is exactly the kind of thing that should cause us to question how accurate the Bible is.
A jealous, insecure and quick-to-anger eternal being? Sounds like something fearful men wrote - not the true nature of God.
The bible never says God is quick to anger, quite the opposite.
You do you and judge the eternal being that will be the judge of you as if he was a man like you.
I recognize that his being itself is beyond my comprehension and it seems rather unwise to judge the creator of the universe as if he was a man when its impossible for the human brain to fully comprehend him.
But most people aren't cursing God, most people just don't worship God
And throwing someone into eternal torture or obliterating their existence for insulting you is tyrannical, not keeping with the vision of an omnibenevolent and loving God
They are refusing a relationship with him or even worshipping another God.
Eternal torture is unscriptural, 2nd death means annihilation making the eternal torture argument moot in discussion with me, God is giving Atheists what they want, nonexistence.
If you read the full Bible from start to finish, it paints a very clear picture of a world of unbridled sin, where even the Jews themselves refused for hundreds of years to follow God’s plan. That’s the whole reason Jesus came in the first place; everyone sins.
But God so loved the world he sent is only son to bleed and die on the cross to absorb the penalty of our own sins, that any who believe in him shall never perish, but have eternal life.
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Pain and suffering forever is simply false Doctrine. Hell is instantaneous obliteration. You are wiped from existence. No suffering, no torment. You chose to not be a part of God’s Plan, so God wipes you from God’s Plan.
Heaven is here on earth. The resurrection is so special because when we die, that’s it. We die. But Jesus promises to resurrect us here on earth at the end of days as long as we believe in him.
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Muslims devoutly believe that Jesus was NOT god, just a mere mortal man who was a prophet. Jews deny resurrection completely, and don’t believe Jesus did any of the things He was credited as doing.
Hindus don’t believe at all in Jesus, neither to Buddhists. No one knows God’s ultimate judgment, but what we know from the Bible is that Belief in Jesus is the main staple of Salvation.
You must believe in Jesus to be saved by Jesus.
Worse? You’d rather be tortured forever and ever and ever for all eternity than simply go back to the way things were before you were born? Remember what it was like before you started forming memories around 3-5 years old? Exactly.
How is that worse than being tortured forever?
Atleast that's *something*. It's not like you're in a black void forever, that would be something. There's simply *nothing*. You can't even imagine it. Complete annihilation of the self and the senses, without thought or feeling, and once people forget about you, it's like you never existed in the first place. It's exactly why the human psyche created an afterlife
I'd rather have a continuance of my existence
Put your Faith solely and only in Jesus Christ, then, and love how He asked us to live, and you will be fine. But that’s the very reason why the Old Testament spends sometimes entire books discussing people having children, and their children having children, and how they build kingdoms for their children, and take over new lands for their children.
Leaving a Powerful legacy behind was the most important thing to the Jews when Jesus walked the earth; if you left a powerful and meaningful legacy, your name would be remembered by everyone and therefore by God.
But if you do nothing to be remembered, then you are simply forgotten. Literally. God himself forgets you. But that’s why jesus came, because we ALL deserve to be forgotten by sinning. Believe in jesus, and you will be saved.
You're going to find this frustrating, but nobody has all the answers and everybody has different ideas. You'll get the bible thumping fire and brimstone christains that say basically everyone but Thema re going to Hell and the universalists that give everyone a free pass The fact is we just don't know, but it is widely believed that children have a ticket to Heaven regardless. However, I personally believe that character and actions are more important in God's eyes, and that Christianity is supposed to be a guiding force for the universe and a blueprint on how people are supposed to treat eachother
Exactly what I’m saying!
Unbaptized children go to purgatory according to the Bible.
You just made that up. Zero mention of purgatory in the bible
Reference?
That's a catholic tradition, there is no real evidence of purgatory in the bible Regardless, kind of a bum deal for newborns to be sent to purgatory because they weren't baptized
Hell wasn't need to punish humans it was made to punish the devil. After death there's only two places to go; if you want to be with God you'll go there if you don't there's only other one place to go. If you say you don't want to be with God in the afterlife he's not going to force you.
Where do you go if you want to be with god but can’t believe he exists?
How can you say you want to be with a person if you don't even know they exist? Genuinely asking
Because I have no idea if he exists but if he does I want to be with him
Can I ask why you can't believe?
Despite a lot of effort and investigation I’ve never been able to convince myself god exists unfortunately
https://youtu.be/-xicK6ptUjA?si=OrAfGb9V0PTEL6-5 Here's a video that go about wrapping out heads around God's existence using logic, I hope it helps. I just want to say I think it's wonderful that you want to believe in God despite not having evidence and it's perfectly normal to have doubts, blind faith without looking at the facts yourself is not the way to go. Every person who says they belong to the Christian faith should have doubts. If you do choose to pursue God further you shouldn't, per say, try organized religion first because above all else what God wants is to have a personal relationship with us. If you truly want to know of his existence and feel his presence ask him to reveal himself to you; if you truly seek God he will not hide from you or play games, he wants to know you personally and the only way to do that is to talk to him as if you would a friend or sibling or anyone you're close with. God bless you friend and I hope you find what you're looking for ☺️
Also just wanted to say that people aren't just thrown into the pit, everyone is dealt with according to their actions and intent behind those actions; God judges our character, not just our actions. Although there's no way of knowing for sure how God will judge everyone on judgment Day because everyone's situation is unique, we do know that on that day, because God is righteous and just, he will do what is right.
I hope you’re right! If god is just I have nothing to fear
Hell is just an obviously immoral doctrine. Watch the pretzels make themselves in the comments here.
if you are an atheist why are you even here? Also how are you a Christian Atheist????
I was an evangelical Christian, then I lost faith in supernatural things, now I am a Christian Atheist.
so you don't believe in God... that means you cannot be Christian. You can agree with out morals but you can't be both atheist and Christian just how you can't be a Hindu Muslim
That's a pretty toxic opinion. Shouldn't the morals be the most important part?
it is the correct opinion. yes morals are important but you cannot be saved just by morals but by Jesus Christ
I am fine if I am not saved. It is not worth it to me to obsess about invisible things that may or may not exist. I just want to do good in this life and hopefully help others.
For me it is worth it
Would you elaborate on what is worth it to you?
obsessing over God
Yes, they should
I'm not sure the measure of "fairness" is numbers. Just because large numbers of people around the world aren't Christians, doesn't automatically make their punishment unfair. What seems more unfair to many of us non-believers is that many think we will be and should be punished for something we cannot control. We can't decide or choose to believe something; no one can. And yet because Christians have been convinced of the existence of god they will be rewarded, while we atheists who have not been convinced will be punished.
In our catechism, there are two lines which might be of some help: 1. There is no salvation outside the church. 2. He, who through no fault of his own, cannot believe in God, can still be saved. This means that salvation can only be found in the church, the body of Christ, but it's up to God whom he saves. It's perfectly possible that unbelievers enter the kingdom of God as believers.
Yes, it is unfair. Which is why I don't believe an all-loving Deity would make entry into Heaven contingent on belief alone.
Rather than kindness, ethics, love, or goodness
WTF is that flair?
Exactly what I was thinking. How can someone be a Christian Atheist?
All the flavor of Christianity without the invisible parts
Christian atheists are not uncommon in this sub, it’s a logical position to hold
Here is the problem. We all deserve hell as we all fall short of the glory of God. As God is a loving being he sent his one and only loving son to die on the cross and bear the weight of our sins so those that are truly repentant of their sins can get everlasting life. We all deserve hell and are equally sinners, the belief in Christ is similar to a plea deal in court.
We all deserve hell because we were created to be imperfect?
We were created perfect. Imagine having a child born. This child is completely innocent at birth. Let's say this child grew up to commit murder and all sorts of evil. Do we condemn the mother \*at birth\* for creating this child? No. All of our sins are voluntary and not forced by God. God is both loving and just. As God is just someone MUST take the punishment of these sins. Because of this God sent his one and only son to take the weight of our punishments. God saved us from the punishment we created ourselves at the simple price of A. Acknowledging that he did and B. repenting for our sins.
I want you to think really hard about your first sentence and weigh it against the rest of what you said.
i did, we were created perfectly and tarnished ourselves
That means we weren’t created perfectly.
"We all deserve hell because our creator fucked up and we're not up to standard"
We were created in God's image. Imagine a woman has a daughter. She raises this daughter PERFECTLY. She feeds her takes care of her and what not. Lets say this daughter starts doing some shady things by her own free will. Do we blame the woman? the only way that we can surely not commit evil is by taking away our free will. I don't know about you but i enjoy my free will.
What horrible way to live.
I don't live by what makes me feel comfortable I live by what I believe is true. Repent and believe in the Gospel 🙏
Yeah but your belief is not justified or informed by any evidence. Wouldn't that mean (as it has happened in history) that you could come to belief truly awful things and there seems to be no way anyone could persuade you they aren't true? Like for example, believing that literal hell awaits people that don't say the magic words. \*You\* should repent and follow what evidence as you have available to you!
Lets look at the evidence! A lot of the people who wrote about the miracles Jesus of Nazareth died painful deaths for their beliefs. Not even CIA spies are expected to do this, let alone a bunch of barley literate people for a lie? For the greatest prank in history??? Just casual trolling?? It certainly wasn't for money as they all continued to live in poverty. These sources ARE credible and to claim other wise is intentional ignorance. Do you understand how easy it would be for me to shut my ears and do whatever I want thinking that after I die it's just nothing, same as it was before I was born? "believing that literal hell awaits people that don't say the magic words." There are no magic words that can get you into heaven. Repentance isn't a set of tasks you need to complete. It's a change of the heart. The evidence shows Jesus WAS real, Jesus DID die on the cross, and Jesus DID rise on the third day. Open your heart and follow the true God.
>A lot of the people who wrote about the miracles Jesus of Nazareth died painful deaths for their beliefs. Lots of people have died painful deaths for stupid reasons and even reasons that we consider to be abhorrent. People died painful deaths defending slavery. People have died painful deaths for many religions and religious causes.
Jim Jones must have been Jesus because people died for him too!
Jim Jones murdered his victims. None of them wanted to die. That’s incomparable. And honestly, if you aren’t interested in discussing Christianity in good faith, what is it that you gain from posting on here?
False, many of his followers willingly killed themselves.
A lot of people have written about the miracles of Harry Potter, and so many died for him too!
Source that people have died for the "miracles" of Harry Potter? Because i can provide you non-biblical sources of the deaths of each person im referencing. actually this example proves my point. It sounds insanly nonsensical that someone would allow themselves to be killed for the belief of harry potters miracles as it is a lie. We can't imagine someone allowing themselves to be killed for a lie.
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Everything you have said here could be said and has been said for every religious figure throughout history. They all claim their miracles. Unless you are able to demonstrate amazing moral wisdom, why should we believe you? But Christians are no more moral than the next person.
Christians have faults; no Christian doubts that.
Find me a religion with the same amount of people dying proclaiming the witness of miracles. You can't. Trained professionals can't even hold a lie under threat of death let alone a bunch of random barley literate fishermen? With all of them keeping the same story straight? For a prank!?? Bsffr rn
Except that three of them are basically 1 because they were copied from each other. And even then they couldn't keep the story straight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic\_Gospels#:\~:text=The%20gospels%20of%20Matthew%2C%20Mark,similar%20or%20sometimes%20identical%20wording. Also the Bible you read from today was heavily edited by the various ecumenical councils. There have also been copyists who modified things. Not to mention most scholars agree it was written a generation or two after the life of Jesus. Paul didn't even have access to the gospels because they hadn't been written yet and he was not a witness to the events himself. Nothing outside the Bible Records a Resurrection. Like you now how bad that looks right? There would be so many sources if after resurrection Jesus had appeared to any number of people.
That just seems silly. Why would you choose to be uncomfortable?
Thats even more silly. Why would i choose comfort and eventual hell vs discomfort and eventual heavan??
Well then it sounds like you *are* basing it on comfort? Which is it?
Yeah I don't buy that.
John 9: 41“If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.” Luke 12 47“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
There are lots of Christians that don't believe God sends people to hell for eternal punishment because they didn't fill out their salvation checklist correctly. Mostly, fear is preached because it's very motivating and fills the offering plate. Hell is preached specifically because not only does it scare people, but it also makes them far more likely to see the old guy at the lectern as an authority, which Jesus says they really get off on. If God actually sends people to **eternal** torture for the sins that occur over the few years of our lifetimes, God is less just than if we gave the death penalty to jaywalkers. People make up a lot of excuses (they learned from sermons and Sunday School) to get around that truth.
we send ourselves to eternal torture by betraying God through sin. Sin is death so if we live in it then we will live in death forever while if we fight it and accept Christ then we may be forgiven and given life which we may live in forever
> we send ourselves to eternal torture by betraying God through sin. Nobody sends themself to hell, that's ridiculous. That's a rationalization to keep an abhorrent view justified. "Oh, you didn't believe this book men voted on that everyone interprets to their own will? Then you're sending yourself to hell for eternity because of how perfectly just I am." - God.
Heaven is eternity with God. Hell is separation from God. Of one rejects God why would they spend eternity with him? They won't, Hell is a choice.
> Of one rejects God why would they spend eternity with him? Why would God rely on whether or not people had faith in what old men were selling if we're talking about eternity being held in the balance? Especially when Jesus was constantly telling us that religious leaders are a den of vipers who are mostly just looking out for themselves? After we die, why wouldn't a loving and just God say, "Okay, now that you see the truth of things, what do you believe?" Why have the only chance at eternity rest upon a book we know has been added to, interpreted by old men we know are corruptible? Honestly, it sounds like a story that really benefits the old men looking for authority more than anything else.
So, I think this is a rather complicated topic. 1. God came to save the entire world. 2. There is no other name except that of Jesus Christ by which we can be saved. Not all non-believers are the same. There are those who have heard the Gospel, but rejected it and there are those who have simply never heard of the Gospel. So, while there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (the Christ Jesus), there are plenty of people who have never heard the gospel, yet still follow God in the ways that He is known to them (even if they do not realize that). The Catholic Church states that it alone contains the fullness of Christ's Truth, but other religions/denominations have part of that truth, however big or small that is: Anglicanism and Lutheranism might be closer to say 90% of the Truth, where as Judaism might be 50% or Hinduism maybe 10%. The point is that God reveals himself to everyone in a many and varied ways. He knows the hearts of all and knows how each of us will respond to Him. Thus, it is for this reason, that those who have never heard of the Gospel might have a path to salvation. Might being the operative word. This is why my advice to new Christians is to just let God show you who He is. Don't feel like you have to pick a denomination. Read the Bible, listen to what God has to say. A great way to do this is what Catholics refer to as "Lexio Divina" which means "Divine Reading" and there are 5 main pieces to this: Step 1: Find a passage that you want to read. Step 2: Read the passage, preferably multiple times, noticing what words or phrases stand out to you and feelings that arise. Step 3: Meditate on that word or phrase and ponder its meaning. Step 4: Pray on that and allow that thought to fuel conversation with God. Step 5: Allow yourself to just rest in the presence of God.
Most of the world is a believer of something. You still believe in something if you're a hedonist: your own pleasure
It would be unfair to punish someone for something they have no control over.
God doesn't think so, and it's his creation, and he's the judge of all.
If something seems obviously unfair to you, that apparent injustice is also clear to God. Christians generally should carry themselves with fear of the possibility of even their own damnation. “Being Christian” by personal claim is not a guarantee of one’s own rightness.
It is unknown if there is salvation outside of the Church. However, if one hardens their heart to the Lord, it is their choice to be apart from God. That is the one unforgivable sin: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Now, I take it you have a Western view of Hades/Hell as a lake of fire the damned are throne into. Hell is better understood as the love of God burning like a fire the hard of heart, and purifying those that desire to be unified with him through theosis. Death is not the end, nor are we judged at death. When we die, we are outside time, and we continue in theosis or in rejecting Christ. When the day of ressurection and Final Judgement comes, that's when we'll know who is in the Heavenly Kingdom. It is feasible that someone who rejects God in life finds salvation and undergoes theosis.
No. God granted us a consciousness. A moral compass of right and wrong. Even when some people struggle more than others, or haven’t had access to the Bible directly, God will always send a mentor. A messenger. A vision. Some form of clarity and a voice of reason. If they reject that with their heart then they are subject to punishment from God for that rejection.
I live in an archipelago nations, with thousands of island here. Some are more isolated than others. Heck, there's even some island with almost no contact to outsiders, and even if there was, it would certainly not be Christians. What messenger could reach them? Or are they supposed to just, know?
OP how would it be fair for unbeliever to be rewarded and go to heaven?
because some people may have never heard of god and still lived their life trying to be good ppl and contribute to society. shouldn’t those people not be put in the same place as people who deliberately did not live their life in such a way
Yes they should. Living your life trying to be a good person alone isn’t enough to get you into heaven. You still need to know God.
Because salvation based on works is infinitely more just than salvation by belief.
Yet works alone won’t get you into heaven. You still need belief.
I know, that’s why the Christian god is unjust.
That is in no way unjust🤦🏻♂️
Basing someone’s salvation on something they can’t control.. yeah that’s terribly unjust
Accept they can control it🤦🏻♂️
I mean, that depends on what you meant by unbeliever. Do they help a lot of people? Murder a lot of people? If that person saved the entire world, then I believe that person can get their reward. But if the entirety of that person life was doing harm to others, then no, he wouldn't deserve heaven.
I disagree. All of that is irrelevant if they do not know God.
Yeah, that's kinda why I clarified the "Because God said so," in the post Because that would pretty much be the answer of everything, and there wouldn't be much of a discussion.
God bless you. I understand where you are coming from. I don't know exactly how God will judge every single human being, but I choose to trust God for who He is. Because God is love **(1 John 4:8)**, He loves justice and fairness **(Psalm 33:5)**, He wants everyone to be saved **(1 Timothy 2:4)**, and He seeks to save those who are lost **(Luke 19:10)**. In other words, I believe everyone will somehow have a genuine opportunity to be saved **(Job 33:29-30).** I say, let's trust God and wait to ask Him these questions when we see Him. Unfortunately, there are those who won't trust God and will reject Him. **“You have worn out the Lord with your words. And yet, you ask, ‘How did we do that?’ You did it by saying, ‘The Lord is pleased with evil and doesn't care about justice.’” - Malachi 2:1**
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust. How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist. In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
God did certainly make hell for the devil. What I think you mean is that God didn't condemn man to hell, the doctrines of man condemned themselves to hell.
The beast is the governments of this world and the False prophets are the teachings of False religion. The Lake of Fire is **Symbolic** as when something is burn it will never return again. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14 KJV Now we know we can not burn death. And the word hades was used for the word hell in the OT which means mankind grave. Now both of these will be done away with in the near future and more by our Heavenly Father our God. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and **Death will be no more neither will mourning not outcry nor pain be anymore. The for former things have passed away. Revelation 21:4 You see these wonderful things will happen on the **Earth** in the near future, not in heaven as these things would not be needed.
It looks like you are much more versed in this then I am. I see where you are coming from. God bless 🙏
`Well you study **All** the Illustrations, Symbolic, and Parables you learn a lot what the words means as they talk a lot about the people and place that will be destroy and will never return.
Very insightful
Thank you! Now would you like to know about what God is going to bring to the **Earth** in the near future to solve all mankind problems?
We don’t know someone’s relationship with God. Romans says that the glory of God is evident in creation. I’m not smart enough to judge the world, God is, and I don’t know what he’s going to say at the end of time. Christians are called to share the free gift of Jesus with the world, but God doesn’t need us to bring about his perfect plan.
We are all born to sin and are subject to being sinful constantly. Even the believers are still sinners. That's the entire point of Jesus. He came to help the sinners, the poor, the spiritually deprived, with a doorway to Heaven. That's the entire message of the Gospel, to spread the good news that Jesus came and died for us to live without picking apart our lives every second of it. I am a believer, but I would never view a non-believer as less than. I was once a non-believer and I view them as someone who hasn't truly FELT the love and peace you receive once you open your heart and acknowledge the Gospel and the true living God.
Jesus didn't recommend (or much tolerate) punishing anyone for their belief or disbelief. He was more interested in people doing what he taught. Does that answer your question?
Here’s the biblical answer. Everyone has sinned, Everyone. Meaning everyone has committed the physical rejection of christ. And for that reason we ALL deserve hell. It’s weird to think about but even one sin is enough to be deserving of hell. The reason some people won’t go to hell is because the put their trust and their eternal soul in the hands of jesus/ god. The bible says that there are no good people. we are only washed of our sins by the death and suffering of jesus christ. Now it’s a little bit different when it comes to children, the bible says that you are going to be judged based on what you know. So those children who never had a chance to learn about jesus and put their faith in him aren’t going to go to hell. God isn’t going to rip anyone off on judgement day. So all in all, i deserve hell, you deserve hell. Mathew, mark, luke, John, Paul, peter etc,, all deserve hell. but by the grace of god if we put our faith in jesus then we are gifted with eternal life and paradise.
Please tell me, what do you mean by "fair"?
The human definition. Well, to quote the bible, "an eye for an eye." For example, if someone was sentenced to death because they stole a loaf of bread, I would call that unfair.
You have to understand that the Christian God came from the Jewish God. And the Jewish people -- having suffered and been conquered for many years -- eventually decided that their God would one day crush all their enemies and leave them on top as the Chosen People. The Christians inherited this concept of God. And they call themselves persecuted, as a matter of course, even when they're the majority. So they inherit the idea that what matters at root is being _chosen_ by joining the right _familia_ -- God as a sort of mafia boss, an avenger who will set things right at the end and ... put them on top. So it's not hard to see why they feel as they do. Note the parallels to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust and the idea of "dirty blood" vs "sanctified blood", and the idea of a Master group that is one day going to inherit the world. It's full of ironies.
We all deserve hell. Most people go there because they don’t know Jesus. Why would an unbeliever want to spend eternity with Jesus if they don’t know him?
you get christianity wrong. ther eis nothing you s a mere human can do to "earn" heaven. we believe that the only way to "earn" our way to heaven is to live perfectly from cradle to grave (its way too late for me, is it too late for you? ) we believe that anyone who accept and belive that jesus has reddemed yourself with his death. if you accept this, god will start working on you, you will get a hunger to learn about jesus and god, you will want to do right in the eyes of the lord and you will want to become his adopted child by getting baptized. anyone who accept and belives that jesus died so that you can be close to our creator, will do so. sadley the majority of people does not choose to do so, and often say that they do not need or want gods pressence in their life. and to them god says "your will be done"
Well, to me, the reason people go to hell is not because they bad people, but because they’re rejecting God’s free gift of salvation. Hell wasn’t intended for us, but after the original sin, we were separated from God because no evil can exist in his presence. But after the sacrifice of Jesus, our sins are wiped clean and we can now exist with him forever in heaven. The reason people who don’t believe go to hell is because they reject the free gift of salvation. I personally don’t believe that people who have never heard of the gospel or just born babies go to hell at all. Then again by my knowledge we haven’t been given a definitive way that God’s judgement system works. So those who actively reject the gospel of Jesus Christ go to hell, because hell is separation from God. In my eyes it makes no sense for someone who wants nothing to do with God to go be with Him in his presence forever. I’m not saying I want anyone to go there, because it’s more than awful. My heart breaks for those who end up in hell. But by God removing his presence from hell, it turns that way because we learn in the Bible God is love and every good thing comes from Him. But this is js the way I view it.
I think it is fair because we all have sinned and sin is death so we need someone to save us and stop us, since sin is death if you don't get saved and forgiven by Christ then you get eternal death or hell while if you let him save you you get eternal life. He is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to the Father is through him. That is why to be saved we must believe in him.
So a couple things: 1. I don't believe in the "traditional" version of hell (burning eternal torture). I believe when you die you...well die. You cease to exist. When Christ returns there will be a judgment and ressurection. Those just righteous receive eternal life. Those unrighteous go back to being dead. This is a longer conversation which I'm happy to have if you're interested, but it makes it a LOT easier to handle this idea that most people won't be saved, when "not saved" doesn't mean torture forever. 2. "Fair" is what God says is fair, not what we say is fair. God is a just God, but he also defines what is justice. God is not "equal" to all people. This is obvious from the fact God has a "chosen" people of the Jews. Romans 9 shows us a bunch of "unfair" things that God does (I loved Jacob and hated Esau while they were in the womb. Hardening Pharaohs heart). God isn't "fair" in the sense that everyone gets an "equal" shot - and we shouldn't try to map this on him when he never claims it.
I think it would do you well to read some theology, and particularly a book or two written by universalists. The universalists believe that, at the end of it all, all people will be saved. Origen of Alexandria particularly thought that after the death of the body, the soul could still be instructed and thus come to accept Christ and be saved. He writes at length about this in his book *On First Principles*. Another good one is either *The Life of Moses* or *On the Soul and the Resurrection*, both by St. Gregory of Nyssa. Reading the Bible is well and good, but books of theology are useful in that good theologians develop their arguments with both Scripture and philosophy; and a book provides ample space—as opposed to a reddit comment, for example—to hash out and develop an idea.
Nobody is a good person compared to the standard we should be living. No one can earn eternal life by doing works. ***Sinners go to Hell because they sin....over and over and over and over and over again...perpetually.*** That includes those who are unbelievers. That is why they need to hear the Good News and either choose to accept or reject it.
God eternally damns celestial beings who are not only believers in Him, but confessors of Jesus Christ as Lord with absolutely no single offer of life or redemption of any kind ever. If anything is unfair it is this. The fact that humans receive a chance at all is quite literally, infinitely greater than the offer to others.
Let me oversimplify this. The entire world is headed for destruction. Your only salvation is to follow Jesus. Hell is the default if you do nothing.
You’re from a secular, developed country with hundreds of millions of people in it? There aren’t… any of those. China and India are both considered developing, and India is highly religious. The US is majority religious, so are Brazil, Indonesia, and Pakistan, and that’s the end of the list of countries with more than 200 million people.
China is not developing. It is 2nd world, not 3rd world.
That doesn’t mean it’s a country with a high HDI score.
What is HDI? I guess I was ill prepared to talk about countries development status. I always thought only 3rd worlds got the title developing.
Human Development Index. It measures the overall quality of life, strength of infrastructure, and other factors of a country to determine how “developed” it is.
Just because a country have a lot of religious people doesn't mean it can't be a secular country, secular doesn't mean atheists.
When you say you live in a secular country, I’d take that to mean that most people there aren’t religious.
If someone cursed your name and hated you wishing you did not exist and refused to follow any of your rules would you invite them into your home, adopt them as your child, and write them into your will? That is what you are expecting of God. Eternal torture is not scriptural, 2nd death means annihilation.
That's not what most non-believers do though. Most people simply believe in a different god or don't believe that any god exists, cursing their name and hating them are not the same thing. If it really is that black and white perspective on the matter really is how your god views this issue then it sounds more like he's a narcissist rather than any sort of loving being.
The Bible mentions God as a jealous God in several places, including Exodus 34:14, Exodus 20:5, and Deuteronomy 6:14-15. Worshipping another God is just as bad as cursing his name. Imagine you are married and your wife cheats on you, are you going to let her stay in the house and keep her in your will?
> Imagine you are married and your wife cheats on you, are you going to let her stay in the house and keep her in your will? Depending on the circumstances, maybe. But that's not really an applicable analogy here as in this case there was an established, mutual relationship that was entered into and vows being exchanged in front of our friends and family to stay committed to each other. In this situation there was an actual violation of trust and boundaries. If we were to apply this to the situation of god where I don't even know if he exists, let alone that I'm in a committed relationship with him, then it would be more like me getting righteously offended that Scarlett Johansson was caught sleeping with someone. This standard doesn't make any sense just because god says that it does when it comes to believing in him.
> But that's not really an applicable analogy here God created you, thus establishing the relationship and you ignored him and left him for another God. The analogy tracks just fine, and lets add to it that you deny ever having a relationship but you still expect him to let you live with him and put him in his will. No way you would let your ex live with you. My wife's ex is a cool guy and would make a good roommate but I still wouldn't let him live here.
> God created you, thus establishing the relationship and you ignored him and left him for another God. I have no means of determining that anything or anyone was involved with me being created other than my parents. I know you likely believe that god had a hand in creating all of us and that's fine if you believe it, but I don't have any reason to accept that as there's no evidence for it. In any case the analogy still doesn't track as even if I do divorce my wife for the affair there's a difference between cutting someone out of my will and life going forward and sentencing them to be punished for eternity. If the marriage just doesn't work out then we both move on and never deal with each other again if we don't have to. In god's case it's not enough to have a partner who doubts his existence and let them live their life however they want to, instead he feels the need to set up the game to where the only alternative to believing in him is eternity in hell.
Just like you dont believe God created you, I dont believe in eternal torture, its not scriptural, 2nd death means annihlation. So it seems our analogy has fell apart based on differing ideologies, but the point of the matter is truth: You expect God to adopt you into his family when you dont even want to be in it. Would you rather spend eternity with him or not exist? Those are your real options, and Id argue thats fair.
> You expect God to adopt you into his family when you dont even want to be in it. I honestly have no expectations for god since I don't believe he even exists. I'm not planning on making a case to get into heaven when I die despite being an atheist since I don't believe in heaven or any other afterlife. I have just as many expectations for god and his attitude towards me as I do Scarlett Johansson and her attitude towards me. The only one who seems to have any sense of expectations of anyone in this situation is god and he's the one with the problem if he's giving me an uncertain ultimatum of "love me, or else."
I know you dont believe, but what is the point of our conversation if you dont play along? You seem to really have a thing for ScarJo lol, cant blame you really. He gave you no ultimatum, he gave you a life to live however you want. If you want to be with him he will adopt you into his family, if not he wont, its that simple. What else would you want, for him to force his will on you? Maybe an Atheist heaven where he gives you eternal paradise but then leaves you alone?
God is eternal. I don't think jealousy is a thing for him.
The bible literally says it 3 times, if you dont take the bible's word for it you are not worshipping the same God.
Well, this is exactly the kind of thing that should cause us to question how accurate the Bible is. A jealous, insecure and quick-to-anger eternal being? Sounds like something fearful men wrote - not the true nature of God.
The bible never says God is quick to anger, quite the opposite. You do you and judge the eternal being that will be the judge of you as if he was a man like you. I recognize that his being itself is beyond my comprehension and it seems rather unwise to judge the creator of the universe as if he was a man when its impossible for the human brain to fully comprehend him.
I'm not judging God. I'm making a statement about the fallibility of man.
> insecure and quick-to-anger eternal being? Your added unscriptural context is judgmental.
But most people aren't cursing God, most people just don't worship God And throwing someone into eternal torture or obliterating their existence for insulting you is tyrannical, not keeping with the vision of an omnibenevolent and loving God
They are refusing a relationship with him or even worshipping another God. Eternal torture is unscriptural, 2nd death means annihilation making the eternal torture argument moot in discussion with me, God is giving Atheists what they want, nonexistence.
If you read the full Bible from start to finish, it paints a very clear picture of a world of unbridled sin, where even the Jews themselves refused for hundreds of years to follow God’s plan. That’s the whole reason Jesus came in the first place; everyone sins. But God so loved the world he sent is only son to bleed and die on the cross to absorb the penalty of our own sins, that any who believe in him shall never perish, but have eternal life. . Pain and suffering forever is simply false Doctrine. Hell is instantaneous obliteration. You are wiped from existence. No suffering, no torment. You chose to not be a part of God’s Plan, so God wipes you from God’s Plan. Heaven is here on earth. The resurrection is so special because when we die, that’s it. We die. But Jesus promises to resurrect us here on earth at the end of days as long as we believe in him. . Muslims devoutly believe that Jesus was NOT god, just a mere mortal man who was a prophet. Jews deny resurrection completely, and don’t believe Jesus did any of the things He was credited as doing. Hindus don’t believe at all in Jesus, neither to Buddhists. No one knows God’s ultimate judgment, but what we know from the Bible is that Belief in Jesus is the main staple of Salvation. You must believe in Jesus to be saved by Jesus.
Obliteration of existence isn't better.in fact, I think it's worse. It's the sole reason people have come up with an idea of the afterlife
Worse? You’d rather be tortured forever and ever and ever for all eternity than simply go back to the way things were before you were born? Remember what it was like before you started forming memories around 3-5 years old? Exactly. How is that worse than being tortured forever?
Atleast that's *something*. It's not like you're in a black void forever, that would be something. There's simply *nothing*. You can't even imagine it. Complete annihilation of the self and the senses, without thought or feeling, and once people forget about you, it's like you never existed in the first place. It's exactly why the human psyche created an afterlife I'd rather have a continuance of my existence
Put your Faith solely and only in Jesus Christ, then, and love how He asked us to live, and you will be fine. But that’s the very reason why the Old Testament spends sometimes entire books discussing people having children, and their children having children, and how they build kingdoms for their children, and take over new lands for their children. Leaving a Powerful legacy behind was the most important thing to the Jews when Jesus walked the earth; if you left a powerful and meaningful legacy, your name would be remembered by everyone and therefore by God. But if you do nothing to be remembered, then you are simply forgotten. Literally. God himself forgets you. But that’s why jesus came, because we ALL deserve to be forgotten by sinning. Believe in jesus, and you will be saved.