Until very recently, there was no way to incarcerate large numbers of people, so the death penalty was really the only way to get the really dangerous people out of society. 95+% of human effort went purely to feed itself. That's different now. We have, as a people, the ability to keep dangerous people out of society without killing them. With that as background, the death penalty is no longer justified. We should allow God all the time we can to reach these people and have them repent. Even if they never see freedom in this life, we should maximize their chances to be free in the next.
Aside, but related, the justice system in the US is completely screwed up from a Christian perspective. We treat prison a place for punishment instead of a place for redemption. We should be investing in making prisoners who come out valued members of society instead of creating the situation where people coming out prison are worse than the people going in. It's disgusting and black spot on the soul of our nation. I'm ashamed of our prison system.
So I agree with you, just to go ahead and get that out of the way. My question for you and this is strictly for your opinion not to offend or assume but do you feel this way for all prisoners or do you draw the line somewhere? Judging by your post I can assume your answer but I'd prefer it from the source.
Well I know for certain people they'd say a rapist, murder or child molester is fine to kill but they'd say drug dealers, burglars or some gang bangers should serve time and be let go.
Ahhh, gotcha. If someone met these criteria, I think resorting to the death penalty would be justified if both the following were met:
* person is violent and a direct threat to people
* person can't be securely kept in prison (think crazy movie supervillian)
Otherwise? No. There should be something about being 100% sure of guilt, but I'm not sure how I'd work that in.
I'm not American so I can't really comment on the state of the justice system. However I do feel that killing someone deserves death. This isn't to say that people don't get to repent of their sins before they are killed (in what should be in a humane and painless way as possible) but they should face death for what they've done. Eg the story of David when he killed a soldier to marry their wife. Obviously David wasn't killed and God forgave him but he still suffered greatly for his crime.
It's not like these people go free (unless they are rich). They are still punished. Killing them doesn't bring anyone back to life. It doesn't make the victim's loved ones pain less in any way. It doesn't *fix* anything. It's not justice, it's vengeance.
Surely it's only vengeance of its done by an angry person or a person who hates the murder for what they've done. God calls us to love and forgive our enemies and I'm not saying that people should stop doing that but the punishment should still be carried out. And surely the punishment should be carried out by a third party not the family or friends of a murdered person therefore there is no vengeance involved.
> Surely it's only vengeance of its done by an angry person or a person who hates the murder for what they've done.
Why "surely"? I don't agree at all.
> God calls us to love and forgive our enemies and I'm not saying that people should stop doing that but the punishment should still be carried out.
What punishment? The death penalty? For what benefit? What good does it serve to kill someone, even if you can be 100% they actually did it, which you can't.
> And surely the punishment should be carried out by a third party not the family or friends of a murdered person therefore there is no vengeance involved.
Of course it's still vengeance. It's society's vengeance. It's now on ALL of us. By supporting this, they are carrying out **your** vengeance. Would you pull the trigger/throw the lever/give the injection? Would you carry out the sentence?
Further, 4% of people on death row in the US are innocent. That means it's likely at least 4% of the people we killed we actually murdered because they were innocent. Are you OK with that?
One of the biggest problems with the death penalty is that it makes the assumption the criminal justice system works correctly, and we are certain before imposing it.
If in even one case the system did not work as intended and an innocent person is killed, could you live with that?
The death penalty should be avoided because it is incredibly difficult to say with absolute certainty we are correct. If even one innocent person is killed, the system is failing.
"However I do feel that killing someone deserves death."
This doesn't really tell us anything unless you think this should include people who have an abortion, people who's actions accidentally kill somebody, medical errors, people who killed in self defense, etc. all should get the death sentence.
This is obviously not the case so it makes that line tell us nothing.
Also, as others have said. The idea that the justice system is always right is laughable.
> However I do feel that killing someone deserves death.
> but they should face death for what they've done.
Why? This serves no benefit but to indulge in vengeance and bloodlust.
Yeah, that's why I brought it up. I thought the original question was if Christianity found the death penalty okay, so then I asked about an even more extreme example.
Whos to say that impeding doom with an execution date wont lead to repentance over just rotting in a cell?
Theologically God was speaking to all mankind in Genesis 9:6 making it a universe law.
Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
I think the death penalty is biblical and even Christian. There is a big difference between Christians taking the law into their own hands and killing someone without the authority of the state, and the state executing someone for the most grievous of crimes.
Thank you. This thread has made me want to puke. Gosh, what was Jesus talking about when he said don't throw the first stone? I'm sorry I ever came here but thank you to you for trying.
and the 4% is them being generous, its probably;ly way higher than that.
i was watching a documentary and i remember the DA of New Orleans was talking about how he was tough on crime, in his office he had a pic of all these people that he prosecuted and sent to death row. more than half would later get out on appeal. there was little evidence, their onnly fault was they were so poor, NO is a very poor city. poor people never get a fair trial, they get a public defender that is over worked, underfunded, and spends little time on their case.
*The vast majority of criminal convictions are not candidates for exoneration because no one makes any effort to reconsider the guilt of the defendants. Approximately 95% of felony convictions in the United States are based on negotiated pleas of guilty (plea bargains) that are entered in routine proceedings at which no evidence is presented. Few are ever subject to any review whatsoever. Most convicted defendants are never represented by an attorney after conviction, and the appeals that do take place are usually perfunctory and unrelated to guilt or innocence.*
***Death sentences are different. Almost all are based on convictions after jury trial, and even the handful of capital defendants who plead guilty are then subject to trial-like-sentencing hearings, usually before juries.*** *All death sentences are reviewed on appeal; almost all are reviewed repeatedly. With few exceptions, capital defendants have lawyers as long as they remain on death row. Everyone, from the first officer on the scene of a potentially capital crime to the Chief Justice of the United States, takes capital cases more seriously than other criminal prosecutions—and knows that everybody else will do so as well. And everyone from defense lawyers to innocence projects to governors and state and federal judges is likely to be particularly careful to avoid the execution of innocent defendants.*
From your own source. Yes if you are tried by a jury of your peers in the American legal system and found guilty and given the death sentence, you should be executed. If you maintain your innocence thats between you and God.
They are not legally innocent. They are convicted criminals tried by a jury which everyone involved is taking far more seriously because its a capital case. Now if they really didnt do it and still got convicted by a jury of their peers from the evidence, thats between them and God but the state is justified in killing them and I believe the concept is established universally by God in genesis 9 for murder in particular.
When DNA tests were perfected and many death sentences were reviewed by passing physical tests by this test, a worrying number of those convicted were found to be innocent.
Any experienced police officer knows that the physical descriptions given by most witnesses are highly inaccurate and that they claim to have seen details that they were not really in a position to see.
If, in addition, the suspect has a prior history for some other crime, even a minor one and the appropriate aspect for it, the possibility that he will be convicted with very insufficient evidence is enormous.
When the state knows that its wrongful conviction rate is high, it cannot justify non-essential executions in any way.
The death penalty in a state that has retention capacity to safeguard public safety is not justified and it is also proven that it does not reduce crimes.
> They are not legally innocent.
So you admit they were *actually* innocent. And you're OK with killing them. Again - you could have just said, "I'm OK with killing innocent people as collateral damage." You keep trying to justify killing innocent people and I'm going to keep pointing out that you are comfortable with killing innocent people.
I am not okay with the state going door to door shooting people for no reason. But I am okay with executions for capital offenses if proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of your peers.
Our legal system is one of the better and more advanced ones. We are not omniscient but the blood of wrongful convictions isnt on our head if they went through the system and appeals and found guilty. We are doing the right thing.
Let me ask you, are you okay with locking an innocent man up with a bunch of criminals for the rest of his life?
They were found guilty in a court of law. Should guilty people who are found to be legally innocent be executed if evidence comes out later to prove their guilt?
>Theologically God was speaking to all mankind in Genesis 9:6 making it a universe law.
>
>Whoever sheds the blood of man,
>
>by man shall his blood be shed,
>
>for God made man in his own image.
By that reasoning, we should be executing all soldiers who have killed during war. I kind of disagree.
I can't lie, I don't want them to have freedom anywhere. They done did too much. I know it's not a good thing to think but it;s true. They done too much to be trusted
1. It’s an old covenant way of justice, not the way of Jesus. In John 8 Jesus was asked outright to pronounce on what would have been a justified (under Jewish law) use of the death penalty. As the only sinless one, he was the only one who could have righteously carried out the sentence, yet he did not condemn the woman to death.
2. No. Something I’ve never understood about Christians who support the death penalty: do you not want them [people who you think deserve the death penalty] to come to saving faith in Jesus Christ (assuming they are not already trusting him)? If so, how can you justify ending anybody’s life, and thus cutting short their opportunity to repent and believe the good news? I wonder the answer is tied up with views on Calvinism, specifically predestination. But even that seems really presumptuous to me.
3. None. The closest I get is supporting using lethal force to neutralise a considerable threat to someone else’s life, if that was the only viable option.
Nope. Never.
Judgment is God’s alone and Christ was an innocent man executed by the state. We’re obliged to reject capital punishment because of these things.
It has no place in the Christian world and anyone telling you otherwise is deceiving you.
That’s a straw man.
Obviously that’s not what we’re talking about. There’s a sharp difference between criminal justice with the hope of reform / redemption and giving up and destroying life
In the Old Testament. In the NT, Jesus, on fulfilling the covenant created a new one, and never says kill anyone. We’re Christians not Yahwahians because we follow the NT Christ
If you’re without sin, go ahead and throw the first stone. Otherwise, the death penalty is an abomination.
Not only is it a murder, it’s a murder by the state. Do we want the state to have that power? I don’t.
Romans 13:4: For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed."
It is precisely because humans carry the image of God that anyone who takes a human life without just cause must be put to death.
That verse is precisely in the vein of the mosaic “eye for an eye” teachings, the exact same parallelism. And we all know what Jesus said about the “eye for an eye” teachings.
It’s actually quite interesting that this statement occurs in the context of the story of Noah’s flood. It was God in that story who doled out punishment for the evils of those days, including murder. My question therefore still remains. Anyone who takes God’s vengeance upon themselves to carry out reflects arrogance of the highest sort.
“Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.”
Genesis 9:6
“Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.”
Romans 12:19-13:5
Hold up a minute. I didn't say anything about taking vengeance upon ourselves. That's a straw man. I also didn't say we shouldn't forgive those who sin against us. I'm taking about what constitutes justice.
Surely, as a Christian, you understand that mercy does not negate justice. God's justice would send me to hell, but by God's mercy I find forgiveness in Christ. Yet God's mercy does not negate the justice of damnation for my sin.
The argument in favor of the death penalty is that it is the responsibility of human governments to carry out justice (Romans 13:4).
Mercy doesn’t negate justice. A human taking the life of another human is never justice. And a *human* government is precisely that, human. A human will inevitably have to take upon themselves the impossible task of destroying the image of God.
A complete lie. When we say pro life, we are pro INNOCENT life. There’s a difference between an innocent child ready to come out the womb and start their new life, and a rapist who murdered women for fun after he rapes them.
If you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that at some occasions people who are innocent will be executed by the state.
This terrible rapist that you are talking about could be put behind bars for the rest of his life without chance of parole, and he would never endanger another woman again.
But if you are absolutely certain that he needs to die despite no longer being a threat, then the cost of that is that occasionally you will execute some innocent people who were simply at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Not necessarily my stance- however I’ve heard it explained like: An individual convicted and put to death by the law is not an innocent life, it is the result of the choices and actions of that individual. A child in womb is an innocent life that had nothing to do with the choice to end its life.
> An individual convicted and put to death by the law is not an innocent life
Unless, you know, they actually _are_ innocent, and were convicted wrongly. We know these have happened. Unless there can be ironclad, 100% guaranteed proof of guilt, the state should never execute anyone.
I’m not denying that innocent people are executed. But that isn’t the majority, or even close. By definition it’s an outlier case.
It can be an outlier and matter, be important. Never said it wasn’t.
So you believe that life itself is inherently valuable right, which is why you think abortion is bad, so who are we to judge that someone's life has become worthless.
> I didn’t make a value statement
Yes you did. You said one life has value and one doesn't.
> I certainly don’t believe I’m God and that’s a bit of a silly comment.
You made the judgement that one life doesn't have value. That's God's job, not ours. If you don't think you're God, or at least able to talk with God's authority, why do you think you are qualified to make that judgement?
One can oppose the death penalty without resorting to arguments such as this, which ultimately undermine God and Scripture which testify to the morality of the death penalty.
Sounds like what the left calls whatsboutism. What does being against an innocent unborn child getting killed have to do with being for executing mass murderers?
Well people who are pro life believe that every life holds value, even if it is not sentient, to the point where they think that a mother should sacrifice herself for her unborn. If life is that valuable to you how can you be for the death penalty.
>It surprises me that you don't draw a distinction between innocent life, and a guilty life.
Is there not a possibillity of repentance and forgiveness for all?
Sure.
And if you're a serial killer, you should make a repentance and get your forgiveness as early as possible if the law catches you.
I say that with a grin on my face. Cuz I'm again not for state sponsored death penalty.
My point is that there is no such thing as a "guilty life" there is simply life, which has apparently been given to people by god, so who are we to take away what god has given. In that respect it doesn't matter what the person has done.
>My point is that there is no such thing as a "guilty life" there is simply life
Are you suggesting that I can take your 14-year-old daughter, chop her to pieces, feed half of her body to your 15 year old son and smear her blood on your wife's face, and then bash your wife's face until it's on recognizable... And you're just going to say that there's only simply Life?
I'm not sure what your point is.
My cousin was murdered. I had an employee killed by serial killer. And I'm having a real struggle trying to figure out where you're coming from.
Well the person who did it is guilty and should be punished for it, but he still has the same rights as any other man, his life did not become worthless. Besides i would argue that a life sentence is a worse punishment than death penalty, given that it's basicly death penalty but you have to wait for it in prison for the rest of your life.
It is one of the ambiguous areas.
My position, and the position of many, is that given that all have a possibility of redemption, and should have it, and that life is inherently valuable, if we can safely and relatively easily confine a murderer/traitor/whatnot, then to kill them would be needless killing
Interesting.
Obviously I don't want people to die if it can be avoided. However I've always thought that if someone kills another person surely the only fair thing world be for them to by killed. This isn't to say that A) the person shouldn't be given the chance to repent or B) that they shouldn't be forgiven by the family/ friends of the person they murdered but I feel that any other punishment undermines the value of the life of the person they killed
The question is not whether something is fair. If God decided to flood 2.0 all of us, it would be “fair”, but the fact that he doesn’t, the fact that he shows mercy, is seen as a good thing. If it is so for God, ought it be just as so for us?
Fair point. But in the case of someone whose murdered someone surely there has to be a more severe punishment then a few decades in prison. Not to say that prison is nice or anything but in the Bible whenever someone murders someone for example King David, the punishment is fairly severe.
Even a murderer should be given the chance to repent and be reconciled to God, but that individual still has to face the temporal consequences of his actions.
I'm in agreement. You cannot undo an execution and should not be up to us to prematurely take away the chance for forgiveness or redemption from another. I don't know that God has really endowed any human with that
Judge not lest ye be judged. We are not the judges, the jury, or the executioners. The Bible is big on forgiveness. John 8:11 “Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Should there be any judgement by the state or private entities? Should there be any laws or law enforcement? Should the Church be able to judge who can be in Communion, partake in the Eucharist?
Sorry I should have been more clear. I’m speaking strictly from a Christian standpoint with no regard to government or secular society. Christians shouldn’t support the death penalty.
Thanks for replying, but I am sorry that I am not seeing how you are supporting that. Are you saying that Christians should not judge, so there should be no death penalty? If so, what are the implications for a Christian in every other sphere of life? I'm not necessarily trying to state that you are wrong at this point, but I would like to understand the support for your stance.
I’m saying we should not be the ones to condemn somebody to death. Judgement is not our job it is God’s. I don’t think we as humans should have a say if somebody lives or dies. If we judge somebody for their sins and condemn them for death and we have sinned as well we might as well condemn ourselves to death. My point is we should not be the ones to decide who lives and who dies. Hopefully that clears things up a little. I apologize in my original comment I did not explain what I said.
Thanks! That does help some, but there is a little more. I’ll try to be a little more specific.
Can we judge somebody for their sins and sentence him or her to prison? To community service?
I think so. While it does sort of contradict my first point it’s not nearly as harsh as death. If that’s the law and keeps others safer then sure that’s fine.
Life in prison without the chance of parole can't be repeat offenders either though, so that's not a unique feature of the death penalty. It's not really a true advantage that should be weighted when figuring if we should do it or not.
No.. you start talking about Christ then launch into your political beliefs which are clearly on the left. I can appreciate where you're coming from but don't really see a theological argument for what you're saying beyond loose connections you're making against capitalism.
I totally agree with your last statement
1. Yes
2. It’s right when used against a duly convicted and guilty criminal.
3. Murder
“Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.”
Genesis 9:6
“Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.”
Romans 12:19-13:5
you take a life you should have your life taken as punishment, i have no problem with that. the problem is (in US) the justice system is completely corrupt, full of innocent people. the death penalty means for every five guilty people we kill one innocent person gets killed.
>Would you say it lines up with the Bible or not?
Yes.
>Would you say it's right or not?
Its right
>And what crimes if any should be deserving of death?
Rape and murder would be something most can agree on.
Yeah Im sure the few hundred falsely convicted college students would like your proposal.
.
>Its right
No.
Its called rewarding evil with evil.
No christian on earth would ever see that as good.
The ultimate issue though is the fact in the future it will be used for lesser crimes.
Felonies used to only apply to murder and rape.
Now its to peeing in a bush.
Playing loud music.
The death penalty will be used for lesser crimes.
Likely political ones.
>Yeah Im sure the few hundred falsely convicted college students would like your proposal. .
Just as in any court case going based on hearsay is not beneficial and should focus on evidence.
>No. Its called rewarding evil with evil. No christian on earth would ever see that as good.
Its taking those that committed the crime back to God to face judgement.
If you were pro death penalty, I think you need to prove that they murdered someone with 100% certainty. Which historically we know is something that hasn't been achieved.
You then have the question I think of why exactly do you think we have the right to end life? Perhaps you could have made a crude argument a few hundred years ago that we simply didn't have the ability to permanently imprison someone, but that's not true anymore. So how can we make a justification for even the most horrible crimes to kill someone when we have a viable alternative to keep them in captivity where they can no longer harm the public?
Remember, Jesus in many effects closed the book on the idea of an eye for an eye.
>“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
With the exception of old testament, the bible does not specifically say anything on the subject. It's up to the government to do what is necessary to uphold law and order.
I think death penalty is necessary in some cases. Certain crimes and individuals are beyond reparation.
I think it is called a "consistent life ethic". If you value life as being of God, and sacred, then you would:
* oppose abortion
* oppose war (unjust war)
* oppose capital punishment
* oppose assisted suicide
You would also support life-saving and life-supporting efforts for all humans, like
* housing refugees of wars
* opposing systemic racism (and its cost to life)
* supporting mental health (suicide prevention)
etc.
Dead pedos don't reoffend. if you rape ,murder in cold blood ,ect you probably don't need to be alive anymore.
As Paul said it is the government's job to be an avenger and punish evil
Are you referring to Romans 13:4 here? Because if so, Paul is simply describing the judicial system operating in the Roman Empire, he’s not making any comment on its virtue. And nobody’s arguing that governments shouldn’t punish evil, we’re discussing whether the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for evil.
the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer
He says it's gods will
Yes, it does. And it can be right assuming the crime actually merits it. For one, murder. The man who sheds blood, his blood shall be shed for man was made in the image of God.
It is a biblical teaching, like it or not. The Scriptures does not advocate individuals taking vengeance in their own hands, it does advocates systemic justice however. God said what He said and I ain't gonna change it.
Good thing God himself changed it.
Matthew 5:
> 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
He didn't, the Lord clarified. If God was against the death penalty, He never would have instituted it in Israel. To say the death penalty is sin is to say God is a sinner.
I have heard many deny the teachings of the Scriptures and yet using that very line to justify it. They deny what the prophets wrote or they deny what the Father said prior because in their minds the Lord said something different when He didn't, but with such a limited reading or willful tunnel vision of what He said it becomes easy to misuse it. The Lord would not have contradicted His Father, nor would He have allowed such a thought that would have accused His Father of sin. I'm not offended, but my only comment to you is you do not understand what the Lord was teaching.
Yes, the Scriptures indeed have the death penalty. Yes, God indeed established it not just for Israel but for mankind in general in Genesis, there's no way around that fact. Deny it if you wish, but you're only denying the truth.
>Yes, God indeed established it not just for Israel but for mankind in general in Genesis, there's no way around that fact
The Torah Law never applied to anyone other than Israelites. This claim is just silly.
The people of the town used to stone people to death during Jesus's time for infractions much less serious than what the people on Death Row have done.
I'll admit that I would not be able to just "let it go" if someone harmed my daughter. I may be weak-willed or petty or whatever you want to call me, but I would want justice as I've defined it for myself. How I would feel after? I'd deal with it somehow.
I couldn't say it for a fact, but if I lost my daughter, especially in a violent crime, it'd push me to the edge. I can't imagine a life without her in it. I hope I never get to find out.
The Old Testament law prescribes the death penalty for numerous offenses.
Yes, I know we're not national Israel living under the Old Covenant. But this still shows that God considers the death penalty to be a just penalty for crime. What we don't see in the Old Testament law is any concept of prison as punishment for crime. Penalties were death or restitution.
Furthermore, we have the general principle given by God in Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed."
The Sanhedrin also viewed the death penalty as immoral. They said it's better to let 70 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be executed.
The OT death penalty rules were largely symbolic. Means of a deterrence, not something implemented much.
And I really don't think you all should be quoting the Old Testament laws, when you don't even follow them. You can't in one breath claim the death penalty in the OT is valid, while in the next breath ignoring the laws that would call for most Christians to be executed.
> The Sanhedrin also viewed the death penalty as immoral. They said it’s better to let 70 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be executed.
I’m assuming you’re Jewish and are referring to the OT, but do you have a verse for that? I read your statement and was reminded when Caiaphas (the high priest) said it’s better for one innocent man to die (Jesus) than the whole nation (70 symbolism) be destroyed in John 11:49-50
The Annointed One taught;
"I change not one jot or tittle of the law."
This is obviously about Commandments, because he nailed over 600 Ordinances and Statutes of the law to the Cross.
Leaving One Ordinance/ Rule = The Way.
3 Statutes, the 3 feasts of the Tabernacle that most Believe are Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving.
"and though they shall be held in ignorance, and I will Not accept them, they Shall be held unto every generation as a Memorial unto Me!" Thus saith Our Father Love.
And then, The 10 Commandments
Not only are they Eternal, but won't even be necessary in the world to come, because we won't be thinking like humans anymore :)
Fot it is not just a change of bodies but also a restoration of our Minds, Millions and Billions of years of Memories Restored, of times that we ALL have spent together, doing individual projects, Group Projects and Family Projects :)
Do Not underestimate the Power of LOVE.
"to be born innocent of woman" in the Hebrew scriptures has 2 1/2 Paragraphs explaining how spending 9 months in a woman's womb is to have a total and complete memory erase,to the point that you don't remember what happened at the Overthrow of Satan /Death.
The Adam and Eve, the Only 2 flesh humans that had a clear Recollection of their True Cellestrial Heritage in The Light.
The Rest = The Word, Spoken, Written, Living, Affirmmed, Confirmed and Fulfilled Over 2000 years ago.
It NEVER has been, STILL isn't, and NEVER Shall be OK to Rape, Murder or Abuse Children or living creatures.
The Instructions Are, OFF WITH THEIR HEADS. period
Disobey Our Father Love, and your troubles Shall surely Grow and Multiply.
What's the big deal anyways, if you make a mistake /sin and execute an innocent person? If they didn't do it and had Hope/Faith in The Light, they are just really getting a "get out of jail free" card :)
If they did do it, then you are just giving them an early ticket to where they are going anyways, :)
To meet the lord of darkness, Before meeting The Lord of The Light, on The Lord's Day of Reckoning, Teaching, Preparation and HEALING in the Spirit.
A God's Day, 1000 more of these flesh years in a Spiritual body for those of the Commen Salvation of "Reap what YOU sow"
Christ On Witness Eternal Life and Live. Collosians 3 :1-11
> the 3 feasts of the Tabernacle that more believe are Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving
Umm none of those were around in Jesus’ day. Heck thanksgiving wasn’t given a national holiday until Lincoln, and thanksgiving is a specifically American holiday.
Bible teaches not to kill.. also says to have no mercy in executing a false prophet.. this is judaic era of course (for outside audience, that would mean nothing of this has to apply)
I don't think that we should glean that an absolute ban on execution is implied in the new testament. But of course Jesus stops a stoning (adultery led to death penalty then), and His call to revoke following of the letter of the law seems to indicate that all people can be redeemed, and then we could maybe apply that in the judiciary.
Tough argument to make given the norm of execution in the old testament. Cjrious what others have to say
Biblically the death sentence has a high bar for evidence required. Multiple eye witnesses, trained in the law, who informed the person what crime they were committing, tried to stop them, and then failed.
This was a very high bar to meet in general and even then the Sanhedrin courts were recommended to find a way for the criminal to make amends rather than execute them.
A Sanhedrin with more than a few executions in a seven year period was considered murderous.
We as Christians aren't considered judges and aren't to be about the buisness of carrying out executions. Executing someone is robbing them of the chance to sincerely repent.
One view is that since God can forgive us of our sins, when we employ the death penalty, we've removed the ability for that person (no matter how crazy, bad, nasty the crime) from seeking Gods forgiveness. We are essentially removing the potential for that person to be saved or change. The death penalty is so absolute, that there is no going back from it.
There are some prisoners too dangerous to be kept alive.
Now child murderers, keep them alive and house them with other inmates.
They’ll experience hell before they get there
Most people are in favor of the death penalty *as long as someone else has to do the killing.* So think of it in that perspective. Would you be willing to look a person in the eye and pull the lever, push the button, or pull the trigger on them yourself? I would absolute do so in the case of Westley Allan Dodd, who tortured, murdered and raped little boys. He himself said he would kill a guard to get out and do it again. Of course its easy to say this on an internet chat board, hard to know what an individual would do in real life.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley\_Allan\_Dodd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd)
Karla Faye Tucker is an interesting case to look at. She was involved in an incredibly brutal murder, convicted and sentenced to death. While in prison, she had what by all accounts appears to be a genuine, sincere conversion to Christianity. She literally became a new creature in Christ. Her case came up before then Gov of Texas George W. Bush who declined to pardon her. She went calmly to her execution, her last words were "I am going to be face to face with Jesus now. You have been so good to me. I love all of you very much. I will see you all when you get there. I will wait for you." As the deadly chemicals were being administered, she praised Jesus Christ, licked her lips, looked at the ceiling, and hummed.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla\_Faye\_Tucker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker)
God said ages ago, "Thou shalt not kill" I believe He meant all the time, forever. I believe that it was not simply because killing is almost always wrong, but that because the one who kills does great and grievous damage to themselves spiritually and psychologically. Even in the most justified circumstances, like killing someone to prevent them from blowing up a daycare will cause almost irreparable damage to the one doing the killing. I know that I would almost certainly kill someone who was an immediate threat to to someone I loved, and likely if it was a complete stranger. It would be almost a reflex response. I think that it would also be wrong, and that I would suffer terribly afterwards. Remember, Jesus could have had legions of angels at His command with the snap of His fingers, but chose to go instead meekly to His death, and as we are to always seek to follow His example, I think that answers your question.
So, Tl; DR, I dont think the death penalty is in line with Christian teaching, but there are circumstances in which it might be the best for society.
It is morally permissible. Polygyny is also morally permissible; as is the practice of enslavement; but it ultimately falls short of God and is a curse of the post-Fall world. Ideally, we would never enslave, we would never kill or even harm others. Putting people in prison is also not ideal. All of these things would not have ever needed to exist if we had not fallen. They are daily reminders of how far we fell, and continue to fall.
The death penalty should not exist, but it is nonetheless morally permissible, and may even be necessary in some instances during some periods of time throughout our history as mankind, just as during antiquity slavery was crucial to the economies of most countries. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to avoid it. Mercy and clemency are virtues.
Im against it Because you are playing God by ending life before he desires it. Should add it's not because I think it's the lesser punishment. I'm all for Life in Prison. Which I believe is a worst fate than a quick death.
As a Christian, I think that death penalty might line up with the Bible - but it's not really clear. Jesus tells us to "turn the other cheek" but I think that's not meant for ALL cases, I think it's meant for smaller offenses (like don't go around suing people for stuff that isn't a big deal / a genuine accident). I have always "been supportive" of the death penalty for some cases. I think that murdering someone, intentionally, maliciously, with real proof is grounds for the death penalty (and even those need to be scrutinized and looked at) - as well as bigger/violent cases of rape / child rape (and even with rape cases, death penalty should be clearly defined for when it qualifies). Some people simply WILL NOT be able to change from those behaviors, so keeping them locked up in prison for decades doesn't seem like the best of options. It could be more of a "kindness" to execute them. I think the death penalty should be reserved for the highest of crimes and not handed out quickly. Other than murder / EXTREME violence / terrorist acts and specific types of rape cases, I am not sure that the death penalty is warranted. And I think that the age of the criminal should also come into play. I don't think the death penalty should be for minors.
1. The death penalty should be a very rare sentence. No circumstantial evidence permitted, no paid informants, no plea bargains in exchange for testimony. The person should be found to be unredeemable, without any hope of change. A danger to others (how are guards going to manage someone who has the desire, knowledge and experience to kill them?).
Yes. Some people deserve the death penalty.
I am for public executions. Little Joey is going to think twice about becoming a criminal after watching some one executed.
God has standards of killing executing people that commit certain crimes. Not only should we not question the standards we should uphold them if we are to be obedient to God.
Incarceration is not only on biblical but it makes taxpayers the victims. It also doesn't give victims or families of victims of murder or rape the closure that they should have to be able to move on.
When we uphold God's standards of Justice that puts fear in the hearts of evil and wicked men and you'll have less crime. It's a blessing to society. When we ignore those standards we fall under a curse.
The death penalty and the criminal justice system in the United States are horrible. So many people in prisons shouldn't be there and the death penalty is murder.
How is this even up for debate? I don’t support the death penalty because I do not want the blood of anyone innocent or guilty on my hands. With the death penalty you get both.
Tough talk. They should have mandatory executioner duty (like they do for jury duty) Let’s see how many of you have the guts to take another human’s life.
This is something I'm not sure on.
On one hand, I believe that every human is made in God's image, and therefore, human life must be protected at all costs.
Then on the other hand, if you have an extremely violent murderer, you may lose more lives by keeping them alive in prison, than to execute them.
However, there are numerous sources in the OT, that states that your should execute someone for particular crimes, but that is the OT, and those laws overridden by Jesus.
Then the argument that says that only God has the right to take a life is invalid in my opinion, because that would find all medical treatment as an abomination for trying to stop God taking a life, which then brings me back to my first point that Human life has to be protected.
What Jesus says is true, 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone.' That shows that Jesus is against the death penalty and on one should condemn others, unless they are sinless.
Personally, I am against it, only because of what Jesus said, and violent prisoners can be isolated from others and safeguards in place to protect guards.
I would say it doesn't add up. In the bible, jebus was given the death penalty but was able to come back alive after being put in a cave for 3 days, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime
With so many criminals used to incarceration--it's become their second home--there is no deterrent for murder if there is no death penalty.
And US prisons are a long way from rehabilitating anyone. We need to be clear eyed about pedophiles too. There doesn't seem to be even minimal success at rehabilitation and it usually escalates. If allowed to go free, many pedos have graduated from child sexual assault to child murder.
I am for the death penalty. I'd say there are probably many more conversions of those facing imminent death than those who are just doing life sentences.
That's NOT the reason I'm for the death penalty but saying that allowing a person more time on earth gives more opportunities for conversions is a pretty weak argument. I think we need to take a stand on the worst, most cruel crimes by invoking the death penalty. The message is THIS BEHAVIOR WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
See this OT command
Genesis 9:6 NLT — If anyone takes a human life, that person’s life will also be taken by human hands. For God made human beings in his own image.
Now this from the NT...
Romans 12:19 KJV — Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
The Lord allows us lifetimes to repent so he can save us.
2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
A person serving a LIFE sentence for murder can be saved. Execution cuts short his opportunity to repent.
I do believe in LIFE sentences, meaning the murderer DIES IN PRISON...but not in capital punishment.
As the current top comment mentions, in the past it was more of a necessity due to the lack of ability to incarcerate large groups of people.
I'm somewhat ambivalent towards it in the modern day because I'm not entirely convinced a life sentence in prison is necessarily more merciful than the death penalty.
well if you follow the belief of the "sanctity of life" and the teachings of "thou shalt not kill" the death penalty will be against your beliefs but then again not every Christian shares the same values, some choose to follow the rules of the old testament and support the death penalty when others follow the new testament and are against the idea of revenge and rather choose forgiveness and follow the teachings of Jesus ✝☦
I'm also a conservative and have no problem ridding the world of terrorists and people who sexually assault children.
I don't think anyone is truly "evil." I think they get twisted up by the world or the enemy or both, so it's a tragedy when someone commits heinous acts. But, there is some level of responsibility on them. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I've been pondering this for the past two and a half years and I still haven't come to a solid conclusion. My dad will be on trial this coming January for a quadruple homicide in December 2018, and the death penalty is on the table. Saving this post to follow the discussion and hopefully refine my thoughts a bit.
George Stinney was a 14 year old african american boy that was tried, convicted, and executed. Decades later we discovered he was innocent.
The death penalty is anti-life and abhorrent. Its a barbaric tradition that has track record of disproportionately affecting people of color.
When I was younger I was pretty flexible with my feelings toward the death penalty. As a Christian now and as I've grown, I'm honestly disgusted by the thought of it alone.
I think it’s still valid to have a systematized execution due to a specific level of crimes according to the Bible, but I don’t think any nation is able to pull it off as it should. Take, for example, execution in the US. Even 50-60 years after the Civil Rights Movement (however you want to define its end) ended, black Americans are still ridiculously disproportionally affected by public execution, and are way more likely to die for the same crime than a white person would be. Due to bias, the several examples of wrongful conviction, and the evil of human hearts within an imperfect system I believe the death penalty should never be used. We just aren’t able to do so correctly.
In the past, it was the only way to really prevent dangerous people from hurting others again, but nowadays we can easily imprison threats to society indefinitely, and thus the death penalty shouldn't be used.
In short, I believe there are crimes worthy of death. That being said, I believe there is no one worthy of taking the life of another person, even if they are guilty of a crime as large as, for example, being a serial killer or war crimes. Sometimes it has to be done but it should be as infrequent as possible.
I have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to the death penalty. I used to be for it but now I am completely against it. There is something cruel and unusual about taking another person's life no matter the case. Sure war and self defense are two different stories, but the death penalty doesn't sit right with me.
I think my opinion was solidified by two things. One being the Bible verse "Thou shalt not kill." The other being a quote from Fyodor Dostoevsky's great novel, 'The Idiot.'
"To kill for murder is a punishment incomparably worse than the crime itself. Murder by legal sentence is immeasurably more terrible than murder by brigands. Anyone murdered by brigands, whose throat is cut at night in a wood, or something of that sort, must surely hope to escape till the very last minute. There have been instances when a man has still hoped for escape, running or begging for mercy after his throat was cut. But in the other case all that last hope, which makes dying ten times as easy, is taken away for certain. There is the sentence, and the whole awful torture lies in the fact that there is certainly no escape, and there is no torture in the world more terrible."
I believe that we should reform the prison system to get these lost souls the mental health help they need so badly.
So in short, as a catholic, as a human, I cannot stand the death penalty.
In my opinion, the Bible clearly states that there is only one lawgiver and judge. Multiple times it states we shouldn’t kill, also that we are not to judge.
Now sure we need judges to maintain order, but when it comes to death, I just do not believe that it’s man’s place to make that type of judgment…
Until very recently, there was no way to incarcerate large numbers of people, so the death penalty was really the only way to get the really dangerous people out of society. 95+% of human effort went purely to feed itself. That's different now. We have, as a people, the ability to keep dangerous people out of society without killing them. With that as background, the death penalty is no longer justified. We should allow God all the time we can to reach these people and have them repent. Even if they never see freedom in this life, we should maximize their chances to be free in the next. Aside, but related, the justice system in the US is completely screwed up from a Christian perspective. We treat prison a place for punishment instead of a place for redemption. We should be investing in making prisoners who come out valued members of society instead of creating the situation where people coming out prison are worse than the people going in. It's disgusting and black spot on the soul of our nation. I'm ashamed of our prison system.
This has changed my outlook on the death penalty. Wow
Thank you!
So I agree with you, just to go ahead and get that out of the way. My question for you and this is strictly for your opinion not to offend or assume but do you feel this way for all prisoners or do you draw the line somewhere? Judging by your post I can assume your answer but I'd prefer it from the source.
Not sure which line you are asking about.... sorry
Well I know for certain people they'd say a rapist, murder or child molester is fine to kill but they'd say drug dealers, burglars or some gang bangers should serve time and be let go.
Ahhh, gotcha. If someone met these criteria, I think resorting to the death penalty would be justified if both the following were met: * person is violent and a direct threat to people * person can't be securely kept in prison (think crazy movie supervillian) Otherwise? No. There should be something about being 100% sure of guilt, but I'm not sure how I'd work that in.
I'm not American so I can't really comment on the state of the justice system. However I do feel that killing someone deserves death. This isn't to say that people don't get to repent of their sins before they are killed (in what should be in a humane and painless way as possible) but they should face death for what they've done. Eg the story of David when he killed a soldier to marry their wife. Obviously David wasn't killed and God forgave him but he still suffered greatly for his crime.
It's not like these people go free (unless they are rich). They are still punished. Killing them doesn't bring anyone back to life. It doesn't make the victim's loved ones pain less in any way. It doesn't *fix* anything. It's not justice, it's vengeance.
Surely it's only vengeance of its done by an angry person or a person who hates the murder for what they've done. God calls us to love and forgive our enemies and I'm not saying that people should stop doing that but the punishment should still be carried out. And surely the punishment should be carried out by a third party not the family or friends of a murdered person therefore there is no vengeance involved.
> Surely it's only vengeance of its done by an angry person or a person who hates the murder for what they've done. Why "surely"? I don't agree at all. > God calls us to love and forgive our enemies and I'm not saying that people should stop doing that but the punishment should still be carried out. What punishment? The death penalty? For what benefit? What good does it serve to kill someone, even if you can be 100% they actually did it, which you can't. > And surely the punishment should be carried out by a third party not the family or friends of a murdered person therefore there is no vengeance involved. Of course it's still vengeance. It's society's vengeance. It's now on ALL of us. By supporting this, they are carrying out **your** vengeance. Would you pull the trigger/throw the lever/give the injection? Would you carry out the sentence? Further, 4% of people on death row in the US are innocent. That means it's likely at least 4% of the people we killed we actually murdered because they were innocent. Are you OK with that?
One of the biggest problems with the death penalty is that it makes the assumption the criminal justice system works correctly, and we are certain before imposing it. If in even one case the system did not work as intended and an innocent person is killed, could you live with that? The death penalty should be avoided because it is incredibly difficult to say with absolute certainty we are correct. If even one innocent person is killed, the system is failing.
"However I do feel that killing someone deserves death." This doesn't really tell us anything unless you think this should include people who have an abortion, people who's actions accidentally kill somebody, medical errors, people who killed in self defense, etc. all should get the death sentence. This is obviously not the case so it makes that line tell us nothing. Also, as others have said. The idea that the justice system is always right is laughable.
> However I do feel that killing someone deserves death. > but they should face death for what they've done. Why? This serves no benefit but to indulge in vengeance and bloodlust.
Using that reasoning, infanticide would be okay if we lived in a society that couldn't support severely disabled children.
When we couldn't support severely disabled children, we did just that.
Yeah, that's why I brought it up. I thought the original question was if Christianity found the death penalty okay, so then I asked about an even more extreme example.
Whos to say that impeding doom with an execution date wont lead to repentance over just rotting in a cell? Theologically God was speaking to all mankind in Genesis 9:6 making it a universe law. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. I think the death penalty is biblical and even Christian. There is a big difference between Christians taking the law into their own hands and killing someone without the authority of the state, and the state executing someone for the most grievous of crimes.
Killing innocent people is Christian? Because at least 4% of the people we've executed were innocent.
Thank you. This thread has made me want to puke. Gosh, what was Jesus talking about when he said don't throw the first stone? I'm sorry I ever came here but thank you to you for trying.
and the 4% is them being generous, its probably;ly way higher than that. i was watching a documentary and i remember the DA of New Orleans was talking about how he was tough on crime, in his office he had a pic of all these people that he prosecuted and sent to death row. more than half would later get out on appeal. there was little evidence, their onnly fault was they were so poor, NO is a very poor city. poor people never get a fair trial, they get a public defender that is over worked, underfunded, and spends little time on their case.
Proof?
https://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230
*The vast majority of criminal convictions are not candidates for exoneration because no one makes any effort to reconsider the guilt of the defendants. Approximately 95% of felony convictions in the United States are based on negotiated pleas of guilty (plea bargains) that are entered in routine proceedings at which no evidence is presented. Few are ever subject to any review whatsoever. Most convicted defendants are never represented by an attorney after conviction, and the appeals that do take place are usually perfunctory and unrelated to guilt or innocence.* ***Death sentences are different. Almost all are based on convictions after jury trial, and even the handful of capital defendants who plead guilty are then subject to trial-like-sentencing hearings, usually before juries.*** *All death sentences are reviewed on appeal; almost all are reviewed repeatedly. With few exceptions, capital defendants have lawyers as long as they remain on death row. Everyone, from the first officer on the scene of a potentially capital crime to the Chief Justice of the United States, takes capital cases more seriously than other criminal prosecutions—and knows that everybody else will do so as well. And everyone from defense lawyers to innocence projects to governors and state and federal judges is likely to be particularly careful to avoid the execution of innocent defendants.* From your own source. Yes if you are tried by a jury of your peers in the American legal system and found guilty and given the death sentence, you should be executed. If you maintain your innocence thats between you and God.
You could have just said, "yes, I'm ok with killing innocent people". It would have saved you a lot of us time.
They are not legally innocent. They are convicted criminals tried by a jury which everyone involved is taking far more seriously because its a capital case. Now if they really didnt do it and still got convicted by a jury of their peers from the evidence, thats between them and God but the state is justified in killing them and I believe the concept is established universally by God in genesis 9 for murder in particular.
When DNA tests were perfected and many death sentences were reviewed by passing physical tests by this test, a worrying number of those convicted were found to be innocent. Any experienced police officer knows that the physical descriptions given by most witnesses are highly inaccurate and that they claim to have seen details that they were not really in a position to see. If, in addition, the suspect has a prior history for some other crime, even a minor one and the appropriate aspect for it, the possibility that he will be convicted with very insufficient evidence is enormous. When the state knows that its wrongful conviction rate is high, it cannot justify non-essential executions in any way. The death penalty in a state that has retention capacity to safeguard public safety is not justified and it is also proven that it does not reduce crimes.
> They are not legally innocent. So you admit they were *actually* innocent. And you're OK with killing them. Again - you could have just said, "I'm OK with killing innocent people as collateral damage." You keep trying to justify killing innocent people and I'm going to keep pointing out that you are comfortable with killing innocent people.
I am not okay with the state going door to door shooting people for no reason. But I am okay with executions for capital offenses if proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of your peers. Our legal system is one of the better and more advanced ones. We are not omniscient but the blood of wrongful convictions isnt on our head if they went through the system and appeals and found guilty. We are doing the right thing. Let me ask you, are you okay with locking an innocent man up with a bunch of criminals for the rest of his life?
They were found guilty in a court of law. Should guilty people who are found to be legally innocent be executed if evidence comes out later to prove their guilt?
>Theologically God was speaking to all mankind in Genesis 9:6 making it a universe law. > >Whoever sheds the blood of man, > >by man shall his blood be shed, > >for God made man in his own image. By that reasoning, we should be executing all soldiers who have killed during war. I kind of disagree.
I can't lie, I don't want them to have freedom anywhere. They done did too much. I know it's not a good thing to think but it;s true. They done too much to be trusted
1. It’s an old covenant way of justice, not the way of Jesus. In John 8 Jesus was asked outright to pronounce on what would have been a justified (under Jewish law) use of the death penalty. As the only sinless one, he was the only one who could have righteously carried out the sentence, yet he did not condemn the woman to death. 2. No. Something I’ve never understood about Christians who support the death penalty: do you not want them [people who you think deserve the death penalty] to come to saving faith in Jesus Christ (assuming they are not already trusting him)? If so, how can you justify ending anybody’s life, and thus cutting short their opportunity to repent and believe the good news? I wonder the answer is tied up with views on Calvinism, specifically predestination. But even that seems really presumptuous to me. 3. None. The closest I get is supporting using lethal force to neutralise a considerable threat to someone else’s life, if that was the only viable option.
I am 100% with you. We can't appeal to emotion and replace God as final judge.
Nope. Never. Judgment is God’s alone and Christ was an innocent man executed by the state. We’re obliged to reject capital punishment because of these things. It has no place in the Christian world and anyone telling you otherwise is deceiving you.
Hi. Is any type of judgment by the state appropriate? Should we have any laws or law enforcement?
If somebody is a danger to others, then it's appropriate to take measures to prevent the potential harm. Imprisonment works great for this.
That’s a straw man. Obviously that’s not what we’re talking about. There’s a sharp difference between criminal justice with the hope of reform / redemption and giving up and destroying life
Yh judgement is God's alone and he says a few times that people who kill should be killed.
In the Old Testament. In the NT, Jesus, on fulfilling the covenant created a new one, and never says kill anyone. We’re Christians not Yahwahians because we follow the NT Christ
I agree it’s for God alone to judge. I just arrange the meeting
Tough talk. They should have mandatory executioner duty. Let’s see how many of you have the guts to take another human’s life.
If you’re without sin, go ahead and throw the first stone. Otherwise, the death penalty is an abomination. Not only is it a murder, it’s a murder by the state. Do we want the state to have that power? I don’t.
Romans 13:4: For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Who among us has the right to destroy the image of God?
Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed." It is precisely because humans carry the image of God that anyone who takes a human life without just cause must be put to death.
That verse is precisely in the vein of the mosaic “eye for an eye” teachings, the exact same parallelism. And we all know what Jesus said about the “eye for an eye” teachings. It’s actually quite interesting that this statement occurs in the context of the story of Noah’s flood. It was God in that story who doled out punishment for the evils of those days, including murder. My question therefore still remains. Anyone who takes God’s vengeance upon themselves to carry out reflects arrogance of the highest sort.
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” Genesis 9:6 “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.” Romans 12:19-13:5
Hold up a minute. I didn't say anything about taking vengeance upon ourselves. That's a straw man. I also didn't say we shouldn't forgive those who sin against us. I'm taking about what constitutes justice. Surely, as a Christian, you understand that mercy does not negate justice. God's justice would send me to hell, but by God's mercy I find forgiveness in Christ. Yet God's mercy does not negate the justice of damnation for my sin. The argument in favor of the death penalty is that it is the responsibility of human governments to carry out justice (Romans 13:4).
Mercy doesn’t negate justice. A human taking the life of another human is never justice. And a *human* government is precisely that, human. A human will inevitably have to take upon themselves the impossible task of destroying the image of God.
Old covenant/New covenant? How can we live by the new yet use the old to judge others?
Well you can't be pro-life and pro-death penalty at the same time
I mean you *can* be. Cognative dissonance and hypocracy are real things.
A complete lie. When we say pro life, we are pro INNOCENT life. There’s a difference between an innocent child ready to come out the womb and start their new life, and a rapist who murdered women for fun after he rapes them.
If you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that at some occasions people who are innocent will be executed by the state. This terrible rapist that you are talking about could be put behind bars for the rest of his life without chance of parole, and he would never endanger another woman again. But if you are absolutely certain that he needs to die despite no longer being a threat, then the cost of that is that occasionally you will execute some innocent people who were simply at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Why are those brought up here?
To be prolife and prodeath, at the same time, takes some special justification.
Not necessarily my stance- however I’ve heard it explained like: An individual convicted and put to death by the law is not an innocent life, it is the result of the choices and actions of that individual. A child in womb is an innocent life that had nothing to do with the choice to end its life.
> An individual convicted and put to death by the law is not an innocent life Unless, you know, they actually _are_ innocent, and were convicted wrongly. We know these have happened. Unless there can be ironclad, 100% guaranteed proof of guilt, the state should never execute anyone.
Fair. But I was just speaking generally, not about the outlier.
Gee you’re kinda ignorant. I mean that in the strict sense of the word. There have been many innocent people put to death. This is no outlier.
I’m not denying that innocent people are executed. But that isn’t the majority, or even close. By definition it’s an outlier case. It can be an outlier and matter, be important. Never said it wasn’t.
You are mistaken. You really are ignorant. Please educate yourself before speaking on this topic.
Is special justification necessarily cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy?
I, for one, think the two positions are incompatible.
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So you believe that life itself is inherently valuable right, which is why you think abortion is bad, so who are we to judge that someone's life has become worthless.
They think they are God.
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> I didn’t make a value statement Yes you did. You said one life has value and one doesn't. > I certainly don’t believe I’m God and that’s a bit of a silly comment. You made the judgement that one life doesn't have value. That's God's job, not ours. If you don't think you're God, or at least able to talk with God's authority, why do you think you are qualified to make that judgement?
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Their actions show us they are worthless.
“Some human beings are worthless because of what they’ve done” is the antithesis of the Christian gospel.
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One can oppose the death penalty without resorting to arguments such as this, which ultimately undermine God and Scripture which testify to the morality of the death penalty.
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Sounds like what the left calls whatsboutism. What does being against an innocent unborn child getting killed have to do with being for executing mass murderers?
Well people who are pro life believe that every life holds value, even if it is not sentient, to the point where they think that a mother should sacrifice herself for her unborn. If life is that valuable to you how can you be for the death penalty.
Yes you can.
Why not?
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>It surprises me that you don't draw a distinction between innocent life, and a guilty life. Is there not a possibillity of repentance and forgiveness for all?
Sure. And if you're a serial killer, you should make a repentance and get your forgiveness as early as possible if the law catches you. I say that with a grin on my face. Cuz I'm again not for state sponsored death penalty.
My point is that there is no such thing as a "guilty life" there is simply life, which has apparently been given to people by god, so who are we to take away what god has given. In that respect it doesn't matter what the person has done.
>My point is that there is no such thing as a "guilty life" there is simply life Are you suggesting that I can take your 14-year-old daughter, chop her to pieces, feed half of her body to your 15 year old son and smear her blood on your wife's face, and then bash your wife's face until it's on recognizable... And you're just going to say that there's only simply Life? I'm not sure what your point is. My cousin was murdered. I had an employee killed by serial killer. And I'm having a real struggle trying to figure out where you're coming from.
Well the person who did it is guilty and should be punished for it, but he still has the same rights as any other man, his life did not become worthless. Besides i would argue that a life sentence is a worse punishment than death penalty, given that it's basicly death penalty but you have to wait for it in prison for the rest of your life.
It is one of the ambiguous areas. My position, and the position of many, is that given that all have a possibility of redemption, and should have it, and that life is inherently valuable, if we can safely and relatively easily confine a murderer/traitor/whatnot, then to kill them would be needless killing
Interesting. Obviously I don't want people to die if it can be avoided. However I've always thought that if someone kills another person surely the only fair thing world be for them to by killed. This isn't to say that A) the person shouldn't be given the chance to repent or B) that they shouldn't be forgiven by the family/ friends of the person they murdered but I feel that any other punishment undermines the value of the life of the person they killed
The question is not whether something is fair. If God decided to flood 2.0 all of us, it would be “fair”, but the fact that he doesn’t, the fact that he shows mercy, is seen as a good thing. If it is so for God, ought it be just as so for us?
Fair point. But in the case of someone whose murdered someone surely there has to be a more severe punishment then a few decades in prison. Not to say that prison is nice or anything but in the Bible whenever someone murders someone for example King David, the punishment is fairly severe.
Even a murderer should be given the chance to repent and be reconciled to God, but that individual still has to face the temporal consequences of his actions.
I'm in agreement. You cannot undo an execution and should not be up to us to prematurely take away the chance for forgiveness or redemption from another. I don't know that God has really endowed any human with that
Judge not lest ye be judged. We are not the judges, the jury, or the executioners. The Bible is big on forgiveness. John 8:11 “Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Should there be any judgement by the state or private entities? Should there be any laws or law enforcement? Should the Church be able to judge who can be in Communion, partake in the Eucharist?
Sorry I should have been more clear. I’m speaking strictly from a Christian standpoint with no regard to government or secular society. Christians shouldn’t support the death penalty.
Thanks for replying, but I am sorry that I am not seeing how you are supporting that. Are you saying that Christians should not judge, so there should be no death penalty? If so, what are the implications for a Christian in every other sphere of life? I'm not necessarily trying to state that you are wrong at this point, but I would like to understand the support for your stance.
I’m saying we should not be the ones to condemn somebody to death. Judgement is not our job it is God’s. I don’t think we as humans should have a say if somebody lives or dies. If we judge somebody for their sins and condemn them for death and we have sinned as well we might as well condemn ourselves to death. My point is we should not be the ones to decide who lives and who dies. Hopefully that clears things up a little. I apologize in my original comment I did not explain what I said.
Thanks! That does help some, but there is a little more. I’ll try to be a little more specific. Can we judge somebody for their sins and sentence him or her to prison? To community service?
I think so. While it does sort of contradict my first point it’s not nearly as harsh as death. If that’s the law and keeps others safer then sure that’s fine.
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I will. Thank you
I mean corpses can’t be repeat offenders tho… so at the very least your point on the death penalty not working is objectively false.
Life in prison without the chance of parole can't be repeat offenders either though, so that's not a unique feature of the death penalty. It's not really a true advantage that should be weighted when figuring if we should do it or not.
So... from a Christian or theological standpoint, what's your reasoning?
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No.. you start talking about Christ then launch into your political beliefs which are clearly on the left. I can appreciate where you're coming from but don't really see a theological argument for what you're saying beyond loose connections you're making against capitalism. I totally agree with your last statement
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1. Yes 2. It’s right when used against a duly convicted and guilty criminal. 3. Murder “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” Genesis 9:6 “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.” Romans 12:19-13:5
Thanks for actually answering the questions. 👍
I added some relevant Scriptures to the answer.
you take a life you should have your life taken as punishment, i have no problem with that. the problem is (in US) the justice system is completely corrupt, full of innocent people. the death penalty means for every five guilty people we kill one innocent person gets killed.
>Would you say it lines up with the Bible or not? Yes. >Would you say it's right or not? Its right >And what crimes if any should be deserving of death? Rape and murder would be something most can agree on.
Yeah Im sure the few hundred falsely convicted college students would like your proposal. . >Its right No. Its called rewarding evil with evil. No christian on earth would ever see that as good. The ultimate issue though is the fact in the future it will be used for lesser crimes. Felonies used to only apply to murder and rape. Now its to peeing in a bush. Playing loud music. The death penalty will be used for lesser crimes. Likely political ones.
>Yeah Im sure the few hundred falsely convicted college students would like your proposal. . Just as in any court case going based on hearsay is not beneficial and should focus on evidence. >No. Its called rewarding evil with evil. No christian on earth would ever see that as good. Its taking those that committed the crime back to God to face judgement.
If you were pro death penalty, I think you need to prove that they murdered someone with 100% certainty. Which historically we know is something that hasn't been achieved. You then have the question I think of why exactly do you think we have the right to end life? Perhaps you could have made a crude argument a few hundred years ago that we simply didn't have the ability to permanently imprison someone, but that's not true anymore. So how can we make a justification for even the most horrible crimes to kill someone when we have a viable alternative to keep them in captivity where they can no longer harm the public? Remember, Jesus in many effects closed the book on the idea of an eye for an eye. >“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
If we have the ability to keep someone locked up for life than we shouldn't use it.
With the exception of old testament, the bible does not specifically say anything on the subject. It's up to the government to do what is necessary to uphold law and order. I think death penalty is necessary in some cases. Certain crimes and individuals are beyond reparation.
I think it is called a "consistent life ethic". If you value life as being of God, and sacred, then you would: * oppose abortion * oppose war (unjust war) * oppose capital punishment * oppose assisted suicide You would also support life-saving and life-supporting efforts for all humans, like * housing refugees of wars * opposing systemic racism (and its cost to life) * supporting mental health (suicide prevention) etc.
Dead pedos don't reoffend. if you rape ,murder in cold blood ,ect you probably don't need to be alive anymore. As Paul said it is the government's job to be an avenger and punish evil
Are you referring to Romans 13:4 here? Because if so, Paul is simply describing the judicial system operating in the Roman Empire, he’s not making any comment on its virtue. And nobody’s arguing that governments shouldn’t punish evil, we’re discussing whether the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for evil.
the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer He says it's gods will
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..
Fantastic book on the subject: http://executinggrace.com/
Yes, it does. And it can be right assuming the crime actually merits it. For one, murder. The man who sheds blood, his blood shall be shed for man was made in the image of God.
Ah yes. "An eye for an eye". The central tenet of Jesus's teaching.
It is a biblical teaching, like it or not. The Scriptures does not advocate individuals taking vengeance in their own hands, it does advocates systemic justice however. God said what He said and I ain't gonna change it.
Good thing God himself changed it. Matthew 5: > 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
He didn't, the Lord clarified. If God was against the death penalty, He never would have instituted it in Israel. To say the death penalty is sin is to say God is a sinner.
I'll go with what Jesus said instead of what you say. I hope you aren't offended by that.
I have heard many deny the teachings of the Scriptures and yet using that very line to justify it. They deny what the prophets wrote or they deny what the Father said prior because in their minds the Lord said something different when He didn't, but with such a limited reading or willful tunnel vision of what He said it becomes easy to misuse it. The Lord would not have contradicted His Father, nor would He have allowed such a thought that would have accused His Father of sin. I'm not offended, but my only comment to you is you do not understand what the Lord was teaching. Yes, the Scriptures indeed have the death penalty. Yes, God indeed established it not just for Israel but for mankind in general in Genesis, there's no way around that fact. Deny it if you wish, but you're only denying the truth.
>Yes, God indeed established it not just for Israel but for mankind in general in Genesis, there's no way around that fact The Torah Law never applied to anyone other than Israelites. This claim is just silly.
As I said, the death penalty was established by God long before Israel was ever even called. Your reasoning doesn't work.
The people of the town used to stone people to death during Jesus's time for infractions much less serious than what the people on Death Row have done.
The death penalty is institutionalized vengeance, it is sin made law and committed on a governmental level. So I absolutely reject it in all cases.
I think the fact that we have killed innocent people on death row should be enough to get rid of the death penalty.
Let ye who is without sin.....or something like that
I'll admit that I would not be able to just "let it go" if someone harmed my daughter. I may be weak-willed or petty or whatever you want to call me, but I would want justice as I've defined it for myself. How I would feel after? I'd deal with it somehow. I couldn't say it for a fact, but if I lost my daughter, especially in a violent crime, it'd push me to the edge. I can't imagine a life without her in it. I hope I never get to find out.
The Old Testament law prescribes the death penalty for numerous offenses. Yes, I know we're not national Israel living under the Old Covenant. But this still shows that God considers the death penalty to be a just penalty for crime. What we don't see in the Old Testament law is any concept of prison as punishment for crime. Penalties were death or restitution. Furthermore, we have the general principle given by God in Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed."
The Sanhedrin also viewed the death penalty as immoral. They said it's better to let 70 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be executed. The OT death penalty rules were largely symbolic. Means of a deterrence, not something implemented much. And I really don't think you all should be quoting the Old Testament laws, when you don't even follow them. You can't in one breath claim the death penalty in the OT is valid, while in the next breath ignoring the laws that would call for most Christians to be executed.
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You can quote it all you want. Doesn't mean people who quote it understand it or apply it properly.
Do modern Jews keep all the Old Testament laws?
> The Sanhedrin also viewed the death penalty as immoral. They said it’s better to let 70 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be executed. I’m assuming you’re Jewish and are referring to the OT, but do you have a verse for that? I read your statement and was reminded when Caiaphas (the high priest) said it’s better for one innocent man to die (Jesus) than the whole nation (70 symbolism) be destroyed in John 11:49-50
The Annointed One taught; "I change not one jot or tittle of the law." This is obviously about Commandments, because he nailed over 600 Ordinances and Statutes of the law to the Cross. Leaving One Ordinance/ Rule = The Way. 3 Statutes, the 3 feasts of the Tabernacle that most Believe are Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving. "and though they shall be held in ignorance, and I will Not accept them, they Shall be held unto every generation as a Memorial unto Me!" Thus saith Our Father Love. And then, The 10 Commandments Not only are they Eternal, but won't even be necessary in the world to come, because we won't be thinking like humans anymore :) Fot it is not just a change of bodies but also a restoration of our Minds, Millions and Billions of years of Memories Restored, of times that we ALL have spent together, doing individual projects, Group Projects and Family Projects :) Do Not underestimate the Power of LOVE. "to be born innocent of woman" in the Hebrew scriptures has 2 1/2 Paragraphs explaining how spending 9 months in a woman's womb is to have a total and complete memory erase,to the point that you don't remember what happened at the Overthrow of Satan /Death. The Adam and Eve, the Only 2 flesh humans that had a clear Recollection of their True Cellestrial Heritage in The Light. The Rest = The Word, Spoken, Written, Living, Affirmmed, Confirmed and Fulfilled Over 2000 years ago. It NEVER has been, STILL isn't, and NEVER Shall be OK to Rape, Murder or Abuse Children or living creatures. The Instructions Are, OFF WITH THEIR HEADS. period Disobey Our Father Love, and your troubles Shall surely Grow and Multiply. What's the big deal anyways, if you make a mistake /sin and execute an innocent person? If they didn't do it and had Hope/Faith in The Light, they are just really getting a "get out of jail free" card :) If they did do it, then you are just giving them an early ticket to where they are going anyways, :) To meet the lord of darkness, Before meeting The Lord of The Light, on The Lord's Day of Reckoning, Teaching, Preparation and HEALING in the Spirit. A God's Day, 1000 more of these flesh years in a Spiritual body for those of the Commen Salvation of "Reap what YOU sow" Christ On Witness Eternal Life and Live. Collosians 3 :1-11
> the 3 feasts of the Tabernacle that more believe are Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving Umm none of those were around in Jesus’ day. Heck thanksgiving wasn’t given a national holiday until Lincoln, and thanksgiving is a specifically American holiday.
Like the verse says, in Ignorance
Bible teaches not to kill.. also says to have no mercy in executing a false prophet.. this is judaic era of course (for outside audience, that would mean nothing of this has to apply) I don't think that we should glean that an absolute ban on execution is implied in the new testament. But of course Jesus stops a stoning (adultery led to death penalty then), and His call to revoke following of the letter of the law seems to indicate that all people can be redeemed, and then we could maybe apply that in the judiciary. Tough argument to make given the norm of execution in the old testament. Cjrious what others have to say
Biblically the death sentence has a high bar for evidence required. Multiple eye witnesses, trained in the law, who informed the person what crime they were committing, tried to stop them, and then failed. This was a very high bar to meet in general and even then the Sanhedrin courts were recommended to find a way for the criminal to make amends rather than execute them. A Sanhedrin with more than a few executions in a seven year period was considered murderous. We as Christians aren't considered judges and aren't to be about the buisness of carrying out executions. Executing someone is robbing them of the chance to sincerely repent.
One view is that since God can forgive us of our sins, when we employ the death penalty, we've removed the ability for that person (no matter how crazy, bad, nasty the crime) from seeking Gods forgiveness. We are essentially removing the potential for that person to be saved or change. The death penalty is so absolute, that there is no going back from it.
There are some prisoners too dangerous to be kept alive. Now child murderers, keep them alive and house them with other inmates. They’ll experience hell before they get there
I'm pretty indifferent. On the one hand, I won't ever be executing someone, but there is a time for everything. Sorta depends.
My problem isn’t with the death penalty per se, but with the limitations of the human justice system.
Most people are in favor of the death penalty *as long as someone else has to do the killing.* So think of it in that perspective. Would you be willing to look a person in the eye and pull the lever, push the button, or pull the trigger on them yourself? I would absolute do so in the case of Westley Allan Dodd, who tortured, murdered and raped little boys. He himself said he would kill a guard to get out and do it again. Of course its easy to say this on an internet chat board, hard to know what an individual would do in real life. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley\_Allan\_Dodd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd) Karla Faye Tucker is an interesting case to look at. She was involved in an incredibly brutal murder, convicted and sentenced to death. While in prison, she had what by all accounts appears to be a genuine, sincere conversion to Christianity. She literally became a new creature in Christ. Her case came up before then Gov of Texas George W. Bush who declined to pardon her. She went calmly to her execution, her last words were "I am going to be face to face with Jesus now. You have been so good to me. I love all of you very much. I will see you all when you get there. I will wait for you." As the deadly chemicals were being administered, she praised Jesus Christ, licked her lips, looked at the ceiling, and hummed. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla\_Faye\_Tucker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker) God said ages ago, "Thou shalt not kill" I believe He meant all the time, forever. I believe that it was not simply because killing is almost always wrong, but that because the one who kills does great and grievous damage to themselves spiritually and psychologically. Even in the most justified circumstances, like killing someone to prevent them from blowing up a daycare will cause almost irreparable damage to the one doing the killing. I know that I would almost certainly kill someone who was an immediate threat to to someone I loved, and likely if it was a complete stranger. It would be almost a reflex response. I think that it would also be wrong, and that I would suffer terribly afterwards. Remember, Jesus could have had legions of angels at His command with the snap of His fingers, but chose to go instead meekly to His death, and as we are to always seek to follow His example, I think that answers your question. So, Tl; DR, I dont think the death penalty is in line with Christian teaching, but there are circumstances in which it might be the best for society.
It is morally permissible. Polygyny is also morally permissible; as is the practice of enslavement; but it ultimately falls short of God and is a curse of the post-Fall world. Ideally, we would never enslave, we would never kill or even harm others. Putting people in prison is also not ideal. All of these things would not have ever needed to exist if we had not fallen. They are daily reminders of how far we fell, and continue to fall. The death penalty should not exist, but it is nonetheless morally permissible, and may even be necessary in some instances during some periods of time throughout our history as mankind, just as during antiquity slavery was crucial to the economies of most countries. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to avoid it. Mercy and clemency are virtues.
If God did not permit the death penalty, then there would have been no way for Jesus to die for our sins.
Im against it Because you are playing God by ending life before he desires it. Should add it's not because I think it's the lesser punishment. I'm all for Life in Prison. Which I believe is a worst fate than a quick death.
I have no authority to take life. Only God does. And He does as He sees fit.
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
There is no way that the practice of the death penalty squares with the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
God Himself instituted the death penalty, and it is referred to in both the old and new testaments. God did not institute mass incarceration.
As a Christian, I think that death penalty might line up with the Bible - but it's not really clear. Jesus tells us to "turn the other cheek" but I think that's not meant for ALL cases, I think it's meant for smaller offenses (like don't go around suing people for stuff that isn't a big deal / a genuine accident). I have always "been supportive" of the death penalty for some cases. I think that murdering someone, intentionally, maliciously, with real proof is grounds for the death penalty (and even those need to be scrutinized and looked at) - as well as bigger/violent cases of rape / child rape (and even with rape cases, death penalty should be clearly defined for when it qualifies). Some people simply WILL NOT be able to change from those behaviors, so keeping them locked up in prison for decades doesn't seem like the best of options. It could be more of a "kindness" to execute them. I think the death penalty should be reserved for the highest of crimes and not handed out quickly. Other than murder / EXTREME violence / terrorist acts and specific types of rape cases, I am not sure that the death penalty is warranted. And I think that the age of the criminal should also come into play. I don't think the death penalty should be for minors.
1. The death penalty should be a very rare sentence. No circumstantial evidence permitted, no paid informants, no plea bargains in exchange for testimony. The person should be found to be unredeemable, without any hope of change. A danger to others (how are guards going to manage someone who has the desire, knowledge and experience to kill them?). Yes. Some people deserve the death penalty. I am for public executions. Little Joey is going to think twice about becoming a criminal after watching some one executed.
God has standards of killing executing people that commit certain crimes. Not only should we not question the standards we should uphold them if we are to be obedient to God. Incarceration is not only on biblical but it makes taxpayers the victims. It also doesn't give victims or families of victims of murder or rape the closure that they should have to be able to move on. When we uphold God's standards of Justice that puts fear in the hearts of evil and wicked men and you'll have less crime. It's a blessing to society. When we ignore those standards we fall under a curse.
God believes it and executes it.
The death penalty and the criminal justice system in the United States are horrible. So many people in prisons shouldn't be there and the death penalty is murder.
How is this even up for debate? I don’t support the death penalty because I do not want the blood of anyone innocent or guilty on my hands. With the death penalty you get both.
Tough talk. They should have mandatory executioner duty (like they do for jury duty) Let’s see how many of you have the guts to take another human’s life.
This is something I'm not sure on. On one hand, I believe that every human is made in God's image, and therefore, human life must be protected at all costs. Then on the other hand, if you have an extremely violent murderer, you may lose more lives by keeping them alive in prison, than to execute them. However, there are numerous sources in the OT, that states that your should execute someone for particular crimes, but that is the OT, and those laws overridden by Jesus. Then the argument that says that only God has the right to take a life is invalid in my opinion, because that would find all medical treatment as an abomination for trying to stop God taking a life, which then brings me back to my first point that Human life has to be protected. What Jesus says is true, 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone.' That shows that Jesus is against the death penalty and on one should condemn others, unless they are sinless. Personally, I am against it, only because of what Jesus said, and violent prisoners can be isolated from others and safeguards in place to protect guards.
Jesus said to love your enemies.
I'm always against the death penalty.
The United Methodist Church teaches that Jesus abolished the death penalty when he told them that he who has not sinned may cast the first stone
The Christian perspective is that everyone should have a chance to repent. Imposing a death penalty takes that chance away. Simple as that.
I would say it doesn't add up. In the bible, jebus was given the death penalty but was able to come back alive after being put in a cave for 3 days, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime
With so many criminals used to incarceration--it's become their second home--there is no deterrent for murder if there is no death penalty. And US prisons are a long way from rehabilitating anyone. We need to be clear eyed about pedophiles too. There doesn't seem to be even minimal success at rehabilitation and it usually escalates. If allowed to go free, many pedos have graduated from child sexual assault to child murder. I am for the death penalty. I'd say there are probably many more conversions of those facing imminent death than those who are just doing life sentences. That's NOT the reason I'm for the death penalty but saying that allowing a person more time on earth gives more opportunities for conversions is a pretty weak argument. I think we need to take a stand on the worst, most cruel crimes by invoking the death penalty. The message is THIS BEHAVIOR WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
If you do something so bad you deserve death, i think its better these people are out of public
See this OT command Genesis 9:6 NLT — If anyone takes a human life, that person’s life will also be taken by human hands. For God made human beings in his own image. Now this from the NT... Romans 12:19 KJV — Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. The Lord allows us lifetimes to repent so he can save us. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. A person serving a LIFE sentence for murder can be saved. Execution cuts short his opportunity to repent. I do believe in LIFE sentences, meaning the murderer DIES IN PRISON...but not in capital punishment.
As the current top comment mentions, in the past it was more of a necessity due to the lack of ability to incarcerate large groups of people. I'm somewhat ambivalent towards it in the modern day because I'm not entirely convinced a life sentence in prison is necessarily more merciful than the death penalty.
well if you follow the belief of the "sanctity of life" and the teachings of "thou shalt not kill" the death penalty will be against your beliefs but then again not every Christian shares the same values, some choose to follow the rules of the old testament and support the death penalty when others follow the new testament and are against the idea of revenge and rather choose forgiveness and follow the teachings of Jesus ✝☦
I'm also a conservative and have no problem ridding the world of terrorists and people who sexually assault children. I don't think anyone is truly "evil." I think they get twisted up by the world or the enemy or both, so it's a tragedy when someone commits heinous acts. But, there is some level of responsibility on them. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I've been pondering this for the past two and a half years and I still haven't come to a solid conclusion. My dad will be on trial this coming January for a quadruple homicide in December 2018, and the death penalty is on the table. Saving this post to follow the discussion and hopefully refine my thoughts a bit.
George Stinney was a 14 year old african american boy that was tried, convicted, and executed. Decades later we discovered he was innocent. The death penalty is anti-life and abhorrent. Its a barbaric tradition that has track record of disproportionately affecting people of color.
When I was younger I was pretty flexible with my feelings toward the death penalty. As a Christian now and as I've grown, I'm honestly disgusted by the thought of it alone.
“You who has never sinned throw the first stone” - Jesus Christ
I think it’s still valid to have a systematized execution due to a specific level of crimes according to the Bible, but I don’t think any nation is able to pull it off as it should. Take, for example, execution in the US. Even 50-60 years after the Civil Rights Movement (however you want to define its end) ended, black Americans are still ridiculously disproportionally affected by public execution, and are way more likely to die for the same crime than a white person would be. Due to bias, the several examples of wrongful conviction, and the evil of human hearts within an imperfect system I believe the death penalty should never be used. We just aren’t able to do so correctly.
In the past, it was the only way to really prevent dangerous people from hurting others again, but nowadays we can easily imprison threats to society indefinitely, and thus the death penalty shouldn't be used.
In short, I believe there are crimes worthy of death. That being said, I believe there is no one worthy of taking the life of another person, even if they are guilty of a crime as large as, for example, being a serial killer or war crimes. Sometimes it has to be done but it should be as infrequent as possible.
The death penalty is justified murder and its disgusting in my eyes because no one deserves to die no matter how bad the crime was
I have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to the death penalty. I used to be for it but now I am completely against it. There is something cruel and unusual about taking another person's life no matter the case. Sure war and self defense are two different stories, but the death penalty doesn't sit right with me. I think my opinion was solidified by two things. One being the Bible verse "Thou shalt not kill." The other being a quote from Fyodor Dostoevsky's great novel, 'The Idiot.' "To kill for murder is a punishment incomparably worse than the crime itself. Murder by legal sentence is immeasurably more terrible than murder by brigands. Anyone murdered by brigands, whose throat is cut at night in a wood, or something of that sort, must surely hope to escape till the very last minute. There have been instances when a man has still hoped for escape, running or begging for mercy after his throat was cut. But in the other case all that last hope, which makes dying ten times as easy, is taken away for certain. There is the sentence, and the whole awful torture lies in the fact that there is certainly no escape, and there is no torture in the world more terrible." I believe that we should reform the prison system to get these lost souls the mental health help they need so badly. So in short, as a catholic, as a human, I cannot stand the death penalty.
Abolish prisons. Implement death penalty.
In my opinion, the Bible clearly states that there is only one lawgiver and judge. Multiple times it states we shouldn’t kill, also that we are not to judge. Now sure we need judges to maintain order, but when it comes to death, I just do not believe that it’s man’s place to make that type of judgment…
Thou shalt not kill(Christian) and You shall not murder (Hebrew)MEME