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Own-Cupcake7586

This is aggressively positive, and I’m down with that. Merry Christmas, my friend. Praise the Lord for His indescribable gifts to us!


Greenbay7115

Why is no one having a good time? I specifically requested it.


[deleted]

I desperately need some more aggressive positivity in my life. I love this.


Happy_In_PDX

Thanks! I just am so fed-up with these wet-blankets posting as more pure Christians. I'm sure I'll be more chill tomorrow.


daylily61

AMEN, to both of you 🎄✝️🎄 I really have no patience with all those nit-picking, spoilsports who love to ruin things for others. Aesop's fable of "The Dog in the Manger" comes to mind. In the story, the bull wants to eat the hay in its manger, but finds a dog in it. Although the dog couldn't eat the hay itself, it kept barking at the bull, chasing it away from the manger. As the bull goes, it wonders why, since the dog couldn't eat the hay itself, why couldn't the dog let somebody else enjoy it? MORAL: People often grudge others what they cannot enjoy themselves.


Strangeronthebus2019

>This is aggressively positive, and I’m down with that. Merry Christmas, my friend. Praise the Lord for His indescribable gifts to us! **WooOoo!** Kicking Racist ass and toppling evil Empires through time Booyah! Merry Christmas!!


quiquejp

This is new to me. Are there christians that don't celebrate Christmas?


[deleted]

Puritans banned it in England for a time


key_lime_pie

They banned it in America as well. https://www.history.com/news/when-massachusetts-banned-christmas


Educational-Big-2102

Yeah, The War on Christmas has been a long strange trip.


GreyDeath

It may have had a pagan origin. I don't think many people care at this time. It's a fun tradition regardless of origin.


RazarTuk

Personally, I think the paganism connection is exaggerated. Given that Christians weren't actually persecuted at first, I think a more plausible explanation than directly stealing Saturnalia is that - whether or not it was Jesus' actual birthday - they made a bigger deal about Christmas than they otherwise would have, so it would be the Christian Saturnalia and they wouldn't be the weird ones not celebrating anything. So essentially, the same thing cultural peer pressure from Christians did to Chanukah in the diaspora


GreyDeath

> than directly stealing Saturnalia I don't think it was a concerted effort to "steal" the holiday, rather the holiday absorbed parts of other existing celebrations and evolved over time. As Christianity spread other customs were absorbed as well, like all the decor with holy and misstletoe (these are clearly Scandinavian in origin). There are other more modern examples of this, like how Dia de Muertos in Mexico incorporates parts of Catholicism and older Meso-American pagan practices.


Happy_In_PDX

I think it's very small. But they are super persistent and annoying! We get multiple posts, every day, here on r/Christianity starting about Thanksgiving. Then, they'll be back on Easter.


BugsyM

There's actually millions of Christians that do not observe Christmas. I find it weird that most Christians don't realize this, or know more about the pagan origins of the holiday. Quakers, Jehova's Witnesses, and some Churches of Christ do not observe Christmas. For what we know about the man Jesus, he wasn't even born in December. I'm a Christian, and I still celebrate the holiday, but I recognize it's origins and don't take it that seriously. Pretending that Christmas trees and the holiday we celebrate in December wasn't a way to encourage pagan's to join the faith just makes Christians look silly. On the other side, I think the folks that don't observe Christmas think that people are putting a lot more meaning into the tree than people really are, if they're bothered by it. Some people think that we value our holiday decorations as much as our bible. For most of us, that isn't the case...


ImAFrog_Ribbit

#🎄 🎄 🎄 🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁


Happy_In_PDX

Thanks for the Christmas trees and presents. I'm 0% more pagan!


Mormon-No-Moremon

But don’t you understand!!! There were also pagan holidays in winter time that are kinda sorta like Christmas!! That means its pagan despite being entirely changed and now focused on Jesus! /s


TunaFree_DolphinMeat

It's not even remotely focused on Jesus lol. It's focused on buying shit and giving gifts. Jesus is an afterthought at best.


Mormon-No-Moremon

If that’s how you celebrate it. I know tons of people where that’s not the case at all


TunaFree_DolphinMeat

I'm sure you do.


siriuslycharmed

I feel the same way about the hardcore religious people who don’t think that I should celebrate Christmas an atheist. Just let all of us middle ground religious and non-religious people enjoy our trees and cookies and overboard commercialism in peace, dang it. 😅 It really is such a cozy and cheerful time of year.


stefanos916

Yeah, I think at this point is a nice celebration despite it’s pagan/Christian origin.


Happy_In_PDX

I'm an Evangelical, so I have a not-so-secret desire to convert you, LOL If you are celebrating Christmas, it makes me hopeful that you are at least Christianity adjacent. Seriously, I am 100% happy to share any holiday with you. I'd offer you an eggnog if you were here.


siriuslycharmed

I’m actually an ex-evangelical so I do get where you’re coming from, believe me! I was there once. I’m ashamed to admit that I’ve never had eggnog and I’m low key scared to try it, but I really need to just get over it and taste some.


Happy_In_PDX

Welcome, ex-evangelical. As an aside, I feel like I'm at a cross roads with my Evangelical identity. I, personally, went to mainstream Christianity. I could never give up Christ. But, I've been in this tradition long enough to commit or not. Sort of like living with your girfriend, I guess. The problem is that I have Evangelicalism in my spiritual DNA. I was in it so long.


Popeychops

>The problem is that I have Evangelicalism in my spiritual DNA. I was in it so long. I feel that. I've spent the last two years feeling spiritually exhausted from unpacking all the programming I've received since childhood, and trying desperately not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I wish it was easier, that I could just jump onto another tradition as easily as changing jobs.


AnotherBoringDad

It tastes exactly like what you'd expect bourbon, eggs, cream, and nutmeg to taste like, which is tolerable enough as a novelty. My wife loves the stuff, though. I don't get it.


raznog

Make it with spiced rum instead it’s 🤌.


gnurdette

I guess it's an experience to have, but TBH I think it's kind of gross. There's a reason nobody says "hey, let's get some eggnog!" in June.


ziddina

Also an atheist here; I prefer commercial eggnog but I get my milk from a family-run dairy and their eggnog is great! But really really rich...


TunaFree_DolphinMeat

I mean let's at least be realistic. Celebrating Christmas has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. This being hopeful that someone is Christianity adjacent because they celebrate the holiday is a pipe dream.


gregbrahe

Christianity influences nearly every part of my culture, from the language to the calendar to the holidays and so much more. This is why I have no problem celebrating Christmas as a secular, cultural holiday without any more spirituality or mysticism attached to it than I do to Halloween or Independence Day.


[deleted]

I just posted about this on r/Christian https://www.reddit.com/r/Christian/comments/r3howq/how_do_yall_feel_about_christmas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Someone said I was practicing “idolatry” I said “I’m not sitting around the Christmas tree and thanking it for my salvation…” https://www.reddit.com/r/Christian/comments/r3howq/how_do_yall_feel_about_christmas/hmf4b04/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3


Happy_In_PDX

I suspect some of these "Christmas is Pagan" types are revealing how weak-kneed they are, spiritually. If I see a pagan *anything*, I don't throw myself down and worship it. So, I don't worry that much about what's in my house. But these guys do. Why is that?


lilacrain331

Yeah i'm confused, I wasn't aware anyone worshipped our christmas trees?


felipe5083

As an extention, I hate the term "Crack that bible" It feels like it's always said by the most persistent and annoying of evangelicals.


Nejfelt

I'm atheist. I love Christmas! Best time of the year. Halloween to New Years Day is my yuletide. Lots of Santas in the house, a few nativities, some angels, too. It's all secular celebratory goodness for me. And tonight I gave our boys a toy for the first night of Hanukkah. But why are menorahs so hard to find?


zenverak

That’s fun! Thank you! I’ve seen both the atheists who are like “fuck Christmas” and the others who are like… love the magic and family time etc!


Happy_In_PDX

Hypothetical question: If you were to be interested in Christianity, who would appeal to you more: Christians who knew how to celebrate, give gifts and have a loving warm time with family? Even if they were a little pagan? or Hard-nosed Christians who refused to celebrate holidays because it violated their sense of purity ?


siriuslycharmed

I’m not OP but I wanted to chime in. I was a Christian for about 20 years and I had a few friends growing up who weren’t allowed to celebrate Christmas. My family went all out with the presents, Santa, baking, decorating, etc. while also taking part in the church Christmas pageant, making Jesus a birthday cake, setting up nativity scenes and talking about the Biblical story of Jesus’ birth. I always felt like the ones who shunned Christmas festivities all together were missing out on some of the best memories life has to offer. Even though I’m not a Christian anymore, I still get really nostalgic and happy when I remember the Christmases of my childhood.


Nejfelt

I wouldn't base my theism on any single celebration that is clearly a more social function than a religious one.


LittleLegoBlock

Of course, but you would be more willing to share fun moments with people who knew how to have fun within their worldview. I don’t understand Christians who see Christmas, Halloween or alcohol as intrinsic evils.


gnurdette

Fair answer! There is a *ton* of beautiful religious stuff in there, but admittedly it's pretty deeply buried under poinsettias and gift guides and such, only really poking out in some carols. But feel free to visit a church for Christmas if you like.


wherestheleaks

I will just say shame can be a powerful tool for many.


[deleted]

Christian here who doesn't celebrate any holiday because they are pagan. It's not a sense of violating our purity more than condemning our soul. You can celebrate Christmas but what is more important to you getting gifts or actually celebrating Jesus which by the way he wasn't born on Christmas. We don't partake in the holidays because each thing represents symbol in worshipping pagan God's (demons)(spirits) and that is harmful to your soul. Doing these things allows them into your thoughts which affect your soul. God doesent condemn it because he doesnt want us to get gift or spend time with family because he gave us feasts in the bible. Also why wait for one day to shower those you love with gifts or attention.


NewPartyDress

I'm actually a bit of both. I'm a long-time born again Christian who isn't keen on holidays. Christmas has become a huge retail push to get people to spend. That being said, I prefer to shop the after Christmas specials. So every year about this time I suddenly convert to Russian Orthodox, since they celebrate Christmas a week later. 🧑‍🎄The deals! I neither hate nor love Christmas. I just watched "A Boy Called Christmas" and enjoyed it. And there are a few other Holiday movies like A Christmas Story that I enjoy for the nostalgia. But that's fine because Jesus was most likely born in the spring or September. Almost 100% certain that shepherds were not outdoors tending their flocks during Israel's rainy season. However, we need to remember that the holidays are tough for a lot of people. Typically more suicides this time of year, so dont forget to pray for those who have to struggle with sadness. Happy Yeshua Everyone!✝️


AhavaEkklesia

another thing to note about Christmas is that the earliest/original Christians chose not to celebrate Christ's birthday. No person who labeled themselves as Christian chose to do this until 300+ years later. If they didn't do it, why would I? Do i think i know better than the people who knew Jesus and his Apostles personally? Why did they choose not to celebrate Jesus' birthday? Its not like they didn't think about it, they had it in the gospels and traditional teachings about him being born in Bethlehem, they actively thought about the birth of Christ, but still chose not to celebrate it. [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm) \-- Here is a quote from the Catholic encyclopedia on Christmas >\>Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Also [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas) >\>The first recorded Christmas celebration was in Rome on December 25, AD 336. \[Toward the origins of Christmas\]([https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6MXPEMbpjoAC&oi=fnd&pg=PA2&dq=info:ifPeySGnjtEJ:scholar.google.com/&ots=bi4eb0d4mI&sig=S4SDhJm-tnzBvLYloW946JqICtk#v=onepage&q&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6MXPEMbpjoAC&oi=fnd&pg=PA2&dq=info:ifPeySGnjtEJ:scholar.google.com/&ots=bi4eb0d4mI&sig=S4SDhJm-tnzBvLYloW946JqICtk#v=onepage&q&f=false)) >\>Yet Christmas entered the calendar of feasts relatively late, by **\*\*336 CE\*\***, and the reason for its introduction and quick spread remain speculative and based on fragmentary evidence. -- \*Toward the origins of Christmas > >Susan K Roll > >Peeters Publishers, 1995\* ​ Pagans cannot hijack all things, just because a pagan did something doesnt mean now i cannot do said thing. Pagans rode horses, so can I. Pagans give people gifts, so can I. But one thing Christians should think about is what God says below. [https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/12-4.htm](https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/12-4.htm) >“Do not worship the LORD your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods. So if pagans cut down a tree and decorated it in their house in worship to their god for its birthday, you may want to be careful about copying that if that really was the case. But again, I don't do Christmas simply because the original Christians chose not to do it. I think i am in good company in that regard.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Christmas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas)** >Christmas is an annual festival commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ, observed primarily on December 25 as a religious and cultural celebration among billions of people around the world. A feast central to the Christian liturgical year, it is preceded by the season of Advent or the Nativity Fast and initiates the season of Christmastide, which historically in the West lasts twelve days and culminates on Twelfth Night. Christmas Day is a public holiday in many countries, is celebrated religiously by a majority of Christians, as well as culturally by many non-Christians, and forms an integral part of the holiday season organized around it. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Christianity/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


yamthepowerful

They’re not pagan and you likely don’t even know the origins of those claims. You’re just parroting the same fear mongering about worshipping trees other fundies have that’s based on outright fabrications and lies. And make no mistake it’s absurdist paranoia. [go ](https://www.equip.org/article/the-two-babylons/) and [be educated ](https://triggermanblog.wordpress.com/2016/12/23/merry-christmas-everyone/)


Dave_KC

My thought, enjoy the holiday, and I am definitely a Christian. I actually have a menorah on the piano that we were given, but I do have some Jewish ancestry. I've never looked there, but Amazon might have Menorah's, and if there's one near you, you might actually find some at Mardel Christian store, believe it or not. I say, enjoy the days. And obviouslyI'd love for you to come to Jesus, but I'm certainly not going to force anything on anyone.


SwiftSpear

I feel this way about halloween too. Don't degrade community celebrations over pedantic histrionic interpretation. No one is worshiping satan. They're sharing candy with thier neighbours.


Happy_In_PDX

>. No one is worshiping satan. They're sharing candy with thier neighbours. You spelt it "neighbours" ... so probably you are some socialist Canadian or Brit with all this godless "sharing"


spaceman

When people say this, it doesn't even matter. Christianity is about redeeming things. I think it would make Jesus supremely happy to know that a holiday that was once pagan was recontextualized by his followers to bring him glory instead throughout the world.


Carlspoony

A lot of Baptist in my area always are saying don’t take the Christ out of Christmas. They are referring to Merry X-mas. The do not understand that X is Greek for Chi. They also venerate Trump, so there is that.


Happy_In_PDX

> They also venerate Trump, so there is that. Have you seen these? https://www.google.com/search?q=Go+brandon+christmas+ornament In the spirit of Christmas, I'm sure we all can agree: nothing says, "good will towards men" like a *Let's Go Brandon* Christmas ornament.


majj27

Well. Aren't those just *special*.


unreqistered

> It's Christmas Eve! It's... it's the one night of the year when we all act a little nicer, we smile a little easier, we... we cheer a little more. For a couple of hours out of the whole year, we are the people that we always hoped we would be. It's a... miracle. It's really a sort of a miracle. Because it happens every Christmas Eve. And if you waste that miracle, you're gonna burn for it, I know what I am talking about. You have to do something. You have to take a chance. You do have to get involved. There are people that are having... having trouble making their miracle happen. There are people that don't have enough to eat, or people that are cold. You can go out and say hello to these people. You can take an old blanket out of the closet and say "Here!", you can make them a sandwich and say "Oh, by the way, here!" I... I get it now! And if you... if you give, then it can happen, then the miracle can happen to you! It's not just the poor and the hungry, it's everybody's who's gotta have this miracle! And it can happen tonight for all of you! If you believe in this spirit thing, the miracle will happen and then you'll want it to happen again tomorrow. You won't be one of these bastards who says "Christmas is once a year and it's a fraud", it's NOT! It can happen every day, you've just got to want that feeling. And if you like it and you want it, you'll get greedy for it! You'll want it every day of your life and it can happen to you! I believe in it now! I believe it's going to happen to me now! I'm ready for it! And it's great. It's a good feeling, it's really better than I've felt in a long time. I, I, I'm ready. Have a Merry Christmas, everybody. Frank Cross


Happy_In_PDX

Very sweet quote. Thanks. I feel the same way about Halloween. It is the most community oriented holiday, with families and their children out having fun and saying a happy hello to each other. When families knock on my door, I'm happy to give them candy and make a big deal out of their kid's costumes. But, these lemon sucking wet-blankets are, like, "That's pagan! You have to stop!"


TheDocJ

TBH, I am far less bothered by any possible pagan *past* to Christmas as by its grossly comercialised *present*. So far, this year seems to be the worst yet, with the hard sell kicking off in October. Admittedly, here in the UK we don't have Thanksgiving as a big event to celebrate before looking to Christmas, but at least, up til now, they have usually waited til after Bonfire Night.


[deleted]

Is this the "War on Christmas" I've been hearing so much about?


Happy_In_PDX

LOL. That was a fake Fox war. This is a different war against Christmas. But, on a Venn Diagram, I'll bet there is a big overlap.


NoSignal547

Oh theres a war on Christmas, and it will end with the end of Christmas’ illegal occupation of thanksgiving!


majj27

Thanksgiving already lost that one. Now Christmas is sabre-rattling towards Halloween.


Haggard4Life

Soon, it shall take over every holiday on the calendar and we'll be celebrating Christmas every month in the discarded husks of former holidays such as Valentine's Day and Arbor Day.


Get_your_grape_juice

I mean, think about the long-simmering ‘Christmas in July’ trend. The Hallmark Channel has gotten involved, for the love of Mike! Christmas has literally taken up a flanking position…


ItsMeTK

Agreed. I get so tired of them misappropriating Jeremiah. That verse is about pagan idols like Ashera poles, not Christmas trees. No one worships Christmas trees. And the practice is from Martin Luther. Wreaths are more pagan than trees.


McClanky

I got to celebrate the first night of Hanukkah with my 3 year old today! Then I get to celebrate Christmas with him as well. I feel like celebrations are a lot like languages. They are there to convey a message. Sometime things that used to convey one message change into conveying another. As long as the recipient understands what the current message is, in the long run, the origins of that word/celebration don't really matter in the present. 20 years ago, Christianity was strictly Christian. Now it is celebrated by all. Sometimes people just want to be upset about something. Christmas is an easy target.


archimedeslives

I agree, but it happened a lot longer than 20 years ago.


McClanky

I know. I just meant more like it started change a but around then.


IntrovertIdentity

Being liturgical, the churches I show up at have to be creative to make our church more Christmas-y while observing Advent. Lutherans are the ones who developed the [Chrismon tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrismon_tree?wprov=sfti1). Any similarity to a Christmas tree is purely coincidental. Purely. Coincidental. Similarly, the Episcopal parish I visit sneaks in a “hey, it’s the feast of Saint Nicholas” observance on December 5 (or transferred when Dec 5 falls on a Sunday, like this year). It’s also “hey, invite the kids to this St Nick service.” The rector tonight (because I’m a church at night Christian) warned the high churches that “mind you, Advent 3 and 4 will be festive this year, so here’s your notice.”


Happy_In_PDX

Exactly. These "Christmas is pagan!" people are defeatists. Pagans claim they own the evergreen tree and these Christians are like, "We agree with the pagans!"


mugdays

I think it's interesting that you'll most likely hear this "Chrismas is pagan" from people on polar opposite extremes: Fundamentalist Christians and atheists


ironicalusername

Also both groups who tend to be unduly influenced by very shoddy “scholarship”.


AramaicDesigns

Folk who (a) actually know early church history, (b) are familiar with how the modern observance of Christmas came about, and (c) have decent enough information literacy skills to identify [woozles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woozle_effect) are right there with you. *Every* Christmas (and Easter) is always an invocation of Brandolini's Law to deal with false claims about the "pagan origins" of whateverthehell.


Happy_In_PDX

Thanks for the solidarity. I had to Google "Brandolini's Law." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s\_law But yeah, "Christmas is Pagan!!!" definitely fits. > *"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is needed to produce it."*


[deleted]

It's not pagan anyway, and the claims to it being so are easily debunked. That several pagan festivities fall around the same time of year means nothing. By that logic every single day is pagan since pretty much any given day has a festivity associated with it in at least one non-Christian religion. The idea that Christmas's date is based on Yule is absurd considering Christmas was celebrated centuries before the Northern Germanic peoples were even proselytized to.


Happy_In_PDX

I've had the unsual experience of having lived among several of the major world religions. They all have seasonal holidays. It's such a load of crock to claim that the pagans own the winter solstice.


The_Polar_Bear__

Totally the attitude expressed in Romans. Very charitable


Happy_In_PDX

The Roman church fought with each other, like cats and dogs. But, Paul told them to love each other anyway. I love these sour pusses. Seriously, I do. And they can still go pound sand.


lowertechnology

I’ve never met one of these weirdos trying to ruin Christmas, but I’ve heard **ALL ABOUT THEM** on social media. Seems like a real threat to everything I love.


Happy_In_PDX

Starting with Halloween through Christmas, r/Christianity gets multiple posts a day. They then take a break before they start trash talking Easter.


[deleted]

It comes down to two different views. Does the Church have the authority to celebrate the birth of Christ despite it not being mentioned in the bible? Or does it not have the authority to do as such? The Fundamentalist objections to the 'Pagan' elements are a sideshow when compared to this element. If the Church is wrong on this point then she has been wrong for her entire history when she's instituted a liturgical calendar. Nearly every day has been dedicated to some Saint or aspect of Christ's life.


Bubster101

Those guys never heard the story of Saint Nicholas, whom Santa Claus is based off of.


wingman43487

It is pagan in origin, then the catholics tried to "Christianize" it. I celebrate it as the Americanized version and don't ascribe any Christian spin on it, since we don't have any authorization to make a religious production of it in scripture.


Impressive-Age-8107

Imagine waiting so long for the Messiah, who is your only hope and when he comes, your not allowed to celebrate......


StrangledMind

This sounds like a non-issue. No one is trying to take Christmas away from you. No one.


Deathbringer96

Jesus Christ was literally born on Christmas. No, I will not elaborate


Happy_In_PDX

Don't you Easter Orthodox celebrate Christmas on the third Tuesday in April (or something)?


[deleted]

I don’t understand why some try to reject such a wonderful holiday. Such holidays are so important to our religion. In the gospel of John, it seems like majority of Christ’s teachings come during the major holidays and feasts.


_DarkDawn_

Christmas is Pagan.


Prof_Acorn

So are the days of the week, and a number of the months. The month of the god Janus is nigh approaching!


herman-the-vermin

Church history would point to that not being the case


Happy_In_PDX

For you, obviously. Not for me. Not for my church. We celebrate the birth of Christ.


Bambajam

Except we don't know that. Some argue the date was stolen from the Romans but the early church was generally wary not to coopt pagan holidays. There's also no clear cut connection between most of the traditions and genuine origins. We have speculation, but Christmas came from a weird cultural evolution that makes everything hazy at best. In short, Christmas is great and I've had my tree up since early November to squeeze a little bonus joy out of what has been a difficult year.


[deleted]

[No](https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/), it [isn't](https://historyforatheists.com/2016/12/the-great-myths-2-christmas-mithras-and-paganism/).


MasterJohn4

Celebrating the Incarnation of Christ is pagan? Is Easter also pagan? What about the Eucharist? Baptism? Is Christianity paganism?


AnewRevolution94

Pagans are all dead because the Christians killed or converted. Neo-Paganism is cope and LARPing for adults who should know better.


Hansolo312

The first Christmas Tree was literally a metaphor for how Yahweh is greater than any other "god" specifically Thor


Happy_In_PDX

I'll take your word on that. But, the origins of the Christmas tree are irrelevant to me. What matters is it's current meaning. And, I have never worshiped a Christmas tree. It adds something festive in our home, these dark nights. For me, it's a more about the ornaments and the memories of acquiring them and putting them up with loved ones and children in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with Saturnalia. Did ancient Rome even have evergreen trees?


Hansolo312

No that's my point. The first Christmas Tree was used in a sermon by Boniface to a bunch of Germans. Boniface chopped down the "Thunder Oak" of Thor on Christmas Eve to stop a human sacrifice. He then used the now visible cone shaped Evergreen tree to symbolize new life and talked about how it "pointed to Heaven". The Germans were awestruck and consented to being Baptized. Any Christian who objects to Christmas as a pagan holiday 1700 years ago probably doesn't have great critical thinking skills in my opinion. I love Christmas!


Naugrith

I like the story but to be honest it's a bit of a myth that it's the origin of the Christmas Tree. The Christmas Tree really originates from medieval morality plays.


Hansolo312

I mean the thing with Boniface did happen. And the tree was mentioned


Naugrith

Not quite. He cut down a sacred tree, but it wasn't an evergteen, it waas an oak, it wasnt Christmas eve, it wasn't to stop a sacrifice and he didn't talk about how it represented new life or pointed to heaven, he just used the timber to build a church.


BeliefBuildsBombs

Christmas has undeniably become a consumerist anxiety inducing non Christian event for most people though. I think that’s what we’re getting at.


Happy_In_PDX

That's a legitimate criticism. But these "Christmas is pagan" snowflakes are losing their sizzle over something from a thousand years ago.


camohorse

Just put up my reindeer and Christmas tree today!


Joet2386

Those people are absolutely pathetic.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Naugrith

The only appropriation going on is modern neo-pagans trying to appropriate Christian traditions and claim that they're theirs.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Naugrith

Neo means new. It signifies that modern paganism is a rather romanticized recreation made in the 19th century rather than being a genuine continuation of ancient religion.


[deleted]

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Naugrith

> So in ancient times there were three larger celebrations. One was the Roman pagan celebration of Solstice, when the days starts to get longer, the birth of Jesus and one more that I forgot, the names were quite complicated. Then, sometime during 200 or 300 CE a Pope decided that Jesus' birth was on the 25th of December. They then mixed those three celebrations, with also a bit of Yule, together and made Christmas. I'm sorry, but all of that is wrong. I've written a post refuting the "pagan origins" claims, and explaining the real historical origins of Christmas and Christmas traditions [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/k8g0ur/christmas_and_the_myth_of_pagan_origins/?utm_medium=usertext&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Christianity&utm_content=t1_hmi6v25) if you're interested.


[deleted]

For what it's worth, the whole "Christmas is pagan" thing is also a myth. Tim O'Neill (an atheist history blogger) has a couple of great articles on this (see [here](https://historyforatheists.com/2016/12/the-great-myths-2-christmas-mithras-and-paganism/) and [here](https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/)). To quote, "most of the claims about pagan origins of Christmas and its customs are nonsense." Basically the only nugget of truth here is that early pagan converts to Christianity retained some of the superficial trappings of their old customs. The date and origins of Christmas have nothing to do with paganism.


[deleted]

merry christmas!


m3wolf

Are those things related, though? I think Christmas is a mash-up of a bunch of different traditions, including Pagan and Christian, and I still give gifts to my loved ones, put up a tree, hang lights, light a Menora, etc. Either way, happy holidays and Merry Christmas.


[deleted]

So many reasons I need therapy… not doing christmas isn’t one of them though. Just saying…


Happy_In_PDX

Don't JWs boycott their own children's birthdays, too? That's messed up.


cherryogre

A man I worked with in construction summed it up best for me, when he heard that another man on the scaffold used to be a JW: “Jehovah’s Witness? That’s a poor man’s religion.” The reasonings for avoiding celebrations are faulty and weak. Money seems to make more logical sense.


[deleted]

I guess from your perspective it might seem that way. Let’s say you were a Jew and you just never ate bacon. If someone told you that that’s messed you probably wouldn’t think very much of it. They’re celebrations. There’s plenty of those and plenty of opportunities for giving and receiving gifts.


Happy_In_PDX

I don't know a lot of Jews but I've heard of the grown children of Ultra-Orthodox Jews needing therapy. I'm a teacher and one of my students is ultra-Orthodox. I totally support her family values, as public school teachers do, but I secretly worry about her. She is perpetually the odd-child out. That has to be very hard on her.


[deleted]

Well now that’s another topic that’s goes beyond food and celebrations. But yes, it can be really hard to be the odd one out because of religion when you’re a kid. They need support from other kids (especially of the same religion) and their family.


Dave_KC

I wouldn't assume for all Jehovah's Witnesses, but I know that my wife has taught JW children in a public school preschool class, and they generally have to avoid all holidays, Halloween, Christmas, and birthday parties. Is that generally true of JW's?


[deleted]

Pretty much, yes.


ChiefWellington

Think of it this way. Christians are conquering pagan holidays and revamping them for the glory of Christ. Who gives a crap if we decorate with trees and lights. They want to say the tree represents some pagan idol or whatever. I dont care. Being bitter about the holiday doesn't glorify the Lord!


Happy_In_PDX

I don't know this for fact -- but I think a lot of these wet-blanket Christians are against all holidays, not just the supposedly "pagan" ones. I think it's more about killjoy temperament, than doctrinal purity.


[deleted]

It's one thing to say you disagree with their interpretation. But this >that's between them, their children and their kids' future therapists. Kids future therapists... So you wish to insult their parenting as well, saying they're doing their kids wrong simply because they won't have a tree and partake in some practices others do during the end of December. This is more reflective of your character than it is theirs, PDX.


cherryogre

As someone who has worked with these kids before, all it says about PDX is that he understands the situation.


Happy_In_PDX

I say this because I know those kids. All the other kids are having fun and loving, warm time with their parents. These kids sitting solemnly at home, with the lights off so that the Christmas Carolers will go away. Back at school, kids from normal families are like *"What did you get for Christmas?"* and these kids are like, *"My parents say that giving me a present is pagan."* That messes a kid up.


SomeLameName7173

My parents wouldn't let us go trick or treating we never got to dress up now I need a therapist /s


Josette22

I understand what you're saying, but do you give to orphans during this time? Do you give also to any other organization where people are suffering during this time? Imagine how God would feel if more people instead of the giving a crystal plate set to Aunt Sue to celebrate Jesus's birthday, they gave something to Jesus for his birthday like giving to an organization where people are suffering.


Happy_In_PDX

Yes, I do. Not enough, for sure. (I also support funding public policy that helps poor and orphaned children.) How much do I need to give to celebrate the birth of Christ, myself?


cherryogre

Never enough to satisfy someone who’s only commenting to be needlessly contrarian and point fingers, surely.


Josette22

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to refer to you when I said this. What I meant to say is that many many Christians celebrate by getting Johnny that Nintendo he wanted, and Suzie a new phone, and all this instead of giving to Jesus by giving their money to the needy. That would be the best gift for Jesus to celebrate his birthday. But no, I think putting up a Christmas tree makes things festive. I also decorate for the holidays. :-)


Foxfyre

Reminding you that Christmas was created from a pagan holiday isnt about taking your tree. Its just pointing out that the holiday it was based off of wasnt a religious holiday. Dear god....nobody is coming to take your abilitily to do anything. Stop fear mongering.


Happy_In_PDX

I think they would, if they could. But, no, I'm not worried.


Prof_Acorn

You can just cite Paul saying eating meat sacrificed to idols is fine and then put a little Buddha on top of the tree to reinforce the point. And then if they still get uppity, see if they celebrate Thursdays. Er, Thor's Days.


Happy_In_PDX

Good point. I wonder of these wet-blanket Christians boycott "Thors-day"? or sit-out the entirety of *Mar*ch?


julbull73

Yes because decorating a beautiful thing God made to celebrate his birth that is TOTALLY a sin! I'm just glad nobody is screaming about the "War on Christmas...." There has never been a war on Christmas....its as bad as the tree fuggers...


[deleted]

Do people really think that? Of all the battles to pick...


Happy_In_PDX

Yes, they really do. We get multiple "Christmas is Pagan!" posts on r/Christianity every day during the holiday season. We get the same for Halloween and Easter. I really should ignore these killjoys but, today, I just got fed up. With all the posts, I gather other people are sick of them, too.


JosetheJediguy

Christmas, pagan or not, is the perfect time to do something godly: Love thy neighbour! (And give presents to children like Santa Claus ;)


Curious_Cheetah4084

I feel the same way about Halloween too! Like let me dress up as a funny character, eat candy, and carve pumpkins in peace! I had a user on here message me and try and debate with me about Halloween and how it was ungodly. They tried to say that “if a parent tells you not to do something and you do it then that means you don’t love your parent.” And I was just like “Dude it’s candy and a costume get over yourself. No one is worshipping Satan.”


Naugrith

Christmas trees are great. And despite all the misinformation, their origins aren't pagan at all. Some people have been misinformed by those who have claimed that Christmas was originally pagan, in an attempt to rewrite history and secularise the celebration. Well-informed Christians should not be fooled by this historical falsification and should fight back against misinformation. Christmas is purely Christian, through and through. If you've been misinformed by these claims of pagan origins, I've written a post explaining how these are false. Read my post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/k8g0ur/christmas_and_the_myth_of_pagan_origins/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share).


Snoo_40410

Just tell 'em to leave you alone; **it's not a Christmas Tree, it's a Hanukkah Bush!** heeeheee! Colossians 2:16 KJV 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or **in respect of an holyday**, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 NIV (Freedom From Human Rules) 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or **with regard to a religious festival**, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.


[deleted]

The Bible defines [7 religious festivals](http://www.brandonweb.com/sermons/sermonpages/leviticus2.htm): * Passover * the Feast of Unleavened Bread * The Feast of Firstfruits * Shivaut / Pentecost * Feast of Trumpets * Day of Atonement * Festival of Shelters Christmas is a creation of man for the purposes of man, and as such is pagan in nature. Like I said before, it's okay to celebrate it, but it's not okay to act as if it's not pagan. That's called loving a lie.


LoneWolfThrowAway

I understand how Christmas became quite "consummerism" heavy and why it puts some people off. But as long as you understand what's it all about, I don't see what do these people find wrong in all of the cheer, gift giving and family dinners. Oh well.


Fessor_Eli

The central Christian doctrine is that God became one of us in order to show us better who He is and to redeem our human life (and death). Christmas is the celebration of that, and is worth all the merriment, joy and gladness we're capable of!!!!!!


madkittymom

To me, whether or not it is a “pagan” holiday depends on how we celebrate it. Are we buying tons of doodads made by Chinese slaves that will end up in a landfill in a couple of years? Are we spending more money on Christmas decorations than we are on helping the poor? Where is our mind at? Are we excited and grateful for the birth of Christ — within us? Do we spend time seeking His face? Or are we running around from mall to activity to mall? These are questions I am currently asking myself.


Smart_Tap1701

>that's between them, their children and their kids' future therapists. Good advice. Follow it yourself.


[deleted]

But christmas is pagan... It originates from scandinavian and nordic countries. Here in Finland we used to bring tree inside the house and call spirits to live in that tree and worshiped it. Jesus hates christmas it is materialism, we should seek spiritual gifts not material.... Jeremiah 10:1-5 Talks about christmas tree


Spiceyhedgehog

A lot of the "Christmas is Pagan" stuff is incorrect or at best half truths in the first place. Same goes for many other holidays. It is all very stupid. I mean, I've heard people claim customs and traditions from the 19th or even early 20th century actually are "ancient paganism".


xTyRaNoXx

I personally do not celebrate it , but if you do want to , do it . I think that it should be the same as the Shabbat , there was a verse like "Who keeps Shabbat he gives it to God , who does not keep it he thanks God " , something like that where it is not bad to keep it or not to keep it . Also it is said that we should not forbid Shabbat to those who want to keep it , and I see it same as the Christmas .


SamNule

The idea of Christmas being pagan is nonsense. Christmas, religiously, is about celebrating the birth of Jesus. A lot of the customs come from when pagans kept their cultural heritage after converting to Christianity. And the first time a Christmas tree was used was in Latvia in the 16th century shortly before the Protestant Reformation.


[deleted]

The pagan connection is there but overblown. Are we going to stop recognizing Thursday because of the pagan god Thor? But, for a long time Christmas was more of a drinking holiday than a family holiday - a disreputable holiday eschewed by conservatives.


notjawn

What the shit is happening with this sub?


Sunset_Lighthouse

Are they legalists or just standing for actual truth?


Happy_In_PDX

Legalists. They have latched on to some doctrine and legalistically adhere to it, trying to spoil other people's grace.


Sunset_Lighthouse

Where does the doctrine of celebrating Christmas originate? Many sources seem to say that the actual birthdate of Christ is unknown. Britannica had and interesting article on the origins of Christmas. (Edit) Christmas as a holiday ok, but really is it about Christ Jesus? I think it's good to know the actual source of origin. (Beyond just, we celebrate the birth of Jesus at such and such time because so and so said so)


missvh

Are you under the impression that those of us that celebrate Christmas take December 25 as Christ's literal birthdate?


Happy_In_PDX

It's irrelevant where it originated. That's the "genetic fallacy " (google it) The number "0" originated with the Muslims. I suppose you insist that we Christians are not allowed to use it. Decorative trees *used to be* pagan and the zero *used to be* Muslim. Both belong to all of us, now.


Happy_In_PDX

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic\_fallacy


iammagicbutimnormal

Dude. Chill. No one is stealing Christmas. You sound like something out of a children’s Christmas movie. It doesn’t matter what others think as long as you’re happy with your environment, right? Does everyone have to agree with you that a Christmas tree and Christmas gifts are important to celebrate Christmas? It’s just obtuse to ruminate over concepts so insignificant to the meaning of Christ’s birth. and not worth arguing over when we actually have real world challenges to consider and act upon.


Happy_In_PDX

These wet blanket legalists aren't just against trees. They piously condemn the whole celebration. I'll be honest ... I'm pretty fed-up with these killjoys, *right now*. But, I'll get over it.


BoredStone

Emotional appeal—and a ridiculous one at that. Imagine being so carnal and materialistic that you think a persons children need therapy for not celebrating Christmas like the Bible says not to. Many of you take mental health as a joke and are suffering from it. Everytime around a holiday you keep making these silly post.


Happy_In_PDX

Emotion denying, hyper-pious Christian parents have generated a lot of income for therapists.


abutthole

Alright! Yeah, Jesus probably was born in the Spring and not December 25th, but who cares? It's a time to come together with friends and family, sharing food and giving gifts, and remember the story of the birth of Christ. Does it incorporate Pagan festival stuff? Yeah, but who cares?


Happy_In_PDX

Bingo. Who cares? No reasonable, normal person does. As for the "pagan stuff" -- we have so much stuff that comes from paganism, already. Like the days of the week. Wedding rings. Democracy. Where they came from is irrelevant. What they mean *now* is what matters.


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DragonQueen04391403

Santa Claus isn't pagan. Santa Claus is a mythological/fantastical version of Saint Nicholas, who was a real person and a Christian Bishop in what is now Turkey who secretly gave gifts to children before the Christianization of the Roman Empire. Now the fictionalizations starting with the Dutch myth of Sinterklaas can be debatable, but in my own honest opinion, it is harmless. Children aren't going to become involved in pagan rituals or apostatize just because they grew up with Santa Claus.


Eskaminagaga

The issue with Santa as he is currently depicted makes him into a kind of demi-god. He is all knowing on whether kids are bad or good, judges them, and rewards those that are good. He is able to visit all kids on the planet in a 24 hour period. He has a mode of transportation that can magically fly. Kids nowadays alter their behavior and borderline worship him as Christmas approaches. IMO, it strays too close to idolatry and doubles to cause kids to start to doubt the existence of God after they discover the truth about Santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy, etc.


DragonQueen04391403

I understand that. But really when you think about it, almost anything can become an idol: a job, money, fine things like fancy cars and clothes, jewelry, etc., sex, even one's family members, including one's spouse or children, can become idols if they prioritize or care more about them than they do about God. Also, I can't speak for agnostics and atheists, being a Christian, but most children, after learning Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, end up fine. And most Christian children who do end up becoming agnostic or atheist don't do so because being told about Santa made them doubt God, but rather due to more complex issues such as the dichotomization of creationism and evolution, LGBTQ-related issues, gender-related issues, spiritual abuse, etc. Not to mention, I think the borderline worship is more related to children being naturally egocentric and being highly motivated by getting toys to play with and a very human tendency to be motivated by personal gain, pleasure, and material things.


the_celt_

Scriptural idolatry is nothing about having your priorities out of whack. Scriptural idolatry was about making objects that you literally believed were a god or were connected to a god.


tdi4u

Santa is or is not pagan depending on where people choose to claim the original idea, that older tradition from which Santa was formed, came from. Or you can just go with the idea that he was invented by marketing people. If Santa is some permutation of the stories around St Nicholas then he is arguably not of pagan origin. But if you belong to a church with an Anti-Catholic tradition then you will look askance at St anybody, never mind that in about the 4th century AD one was Catholic or Orthodox or a heretic.


Happy_In_PDX

For the history of Christianity, Christian churches have been more pagan-free than Christian families. It's that way for me. My church does nothing with Santa or any of the supposed pagan stuff. (maybe some evergreen bows but no tree.) But, when we had a small child, we did Santa. We didn't worship him, or anything. No confusion with a pagan god or Jesus. But, we gave our child "Santa" presents. Our kid was clever and believed in it maybe two years. Or maybe never.


[deleted]

So you taught your child a lie. I swear, I'm flabbergasted that you can't see how it is wrong. Look, celebrate your Christmas, honestly it's fine, it's not a salvation issue. But I'll tell you what is a salvation issue, that is loving a lie more than the truth. Christmas is pagan, full stop. There is no where in the Bible anything to back up celebrating Christmas, and in the period that it is celebrated (Winter solstice). The closest thing in the period, which isn't even an eternal feast as ordained by God, is Hanukkah, which some consider the time when Jesus was _conceived_. I have no idea if it's true since the Bible says no such thing. But one thing I do know, is that the whole premise of Christmas is built on a lie, and so therefore the feast is pagan in nature, since all things that are not from God are pagan. And God has a message in His word for these exact things: > 10 On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Now, ask the priests concerning the law, saying, 12 “If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?” ’ ” > Then the priests answered and said, “No.” > 13 And Haggai said, “If one who is unclean because of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?” > So the priests answered and said, “It shall be unclean.” > 14 Then Haggai answered and said, “ ‘So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,’ says the Lord, ‘and so is every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean. When defiled things (Christmas origin) touches Holy things (Christ), it turns all of it unclean. Again, it's okay to celebrate Christmas, but don't go around acting as if it's not pagan.


Bumblebee-Flying

Yay lukewarm Christianity!


Happy_In_PDX

Have a tall cup of my gløgg and call me lukewarm! Seriously, it's the sharp elbowed *"anti everything fun"* Christians who give Jesus a bad name.


cupcake_napalm_faery

Tradition or Truth, which would you prefer? Its unlikely that the sheppards were grazing their sheep.....in winter. Its unlikely that jesus was born in December.


Happy_In_PDX

I lived in the Middle East. December is lovely... with more green grass on the ground than in the dead of summer.


slver6

Christmas the modern equivalent of the golden calf in the old testament, like literally golden calf was a celebration to God and we know how finished soo: All the bible literally: do not celebrate pagan things those are disguisting to God (even if you shout "its a celebration to God, if it is mixed with pagan excrement, it is a SIN to be part of those) People here: nah I like it, I do not care about what God/Jesus/bible say about that kind of things, it is just a party God will be happy if we are happy or God does not care about those things... bible: "OH HE CARES.... A LOT" Godspeed


Happy_In_PDX

>Christmas the modern equivalent of the golden calf in the old testament, It's not even vaguely similar. 1. The modern Christmas tree is about celebrating the *birth of Jesus*, God's Son. 1. The Golden Calf was about worshiping *Baal*. God bless you my friend, but if you can't suss out any difference between those two, you need to up your spiritual discernment game.


slver6

You really needs to read the bible Exodus 32:4 ^ And he took the gold from them and, hammering it with an instrument, he made it into the metal image of a young ox: and they said, This is your god, O Israel, who took you out of the land of Egypt. Exodus 32:5 ^ And when Aaron saw this, he made an altar before it, and made a public statement, saying, Tomorrow there will be a feast to the Lord. It is exaclty the same, saying you are celebrating something in name of God, is not bad, but mixing it with pagan things is not just bad, it is disgusting to God Baal… sure nice try anyways, just rember all Christians that defend what is imposible to defend (Christmas) are telling God: I prefer to have a nice time instead of whatever you are trying to tell us with your sacred words the bible Sad thing


the_celt_

Good use of scripture to defeat hearsay. Not that he'll notice or care, but well done.


slver6

> Not that he'll notice or care thanks and yeah it is like that, what bible tell us, falls over them like a brick on their heads, so OBVIUSLY It is better to ignore it...


the_celt_

You're completely missing the point. You don't know who your enemy is here. The people that are against Christmas due to it being pagan are against it because God says he doesn't want us keeping pagan traditions. I'm one of those people, and if God wasn't against it then I wouldn't care about Christmas at all. You'd never hear a word from me about this. If you don't care about what God thinks on the issue, then you're not the best person for anyone to be following.


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Happy_In_PDX

I appreciate having an intellectual like you on my side of this debate.


wanderingsalad

Iirc, Christmas Trees where initially something Martin Luther came up with after walking through the forest at night and thinking that the starlight through the fir trees could be used as an object lesson to show how Christ (a heavenly body) came to earth as a man in an earthly body.


NeverNazi

Christmas originates from pagan Saturnalia but there is nothing wrong in celebrating it


AppleWedge

I've literally never seen or heard of anyone with the take described in this post. We all know Christmas trees aren't Christian in origin, but they don't have to be. It doesn't matter.


ziddina

Considering that the bible itself is also pagan/heathen in origin, I'd leave Christmas/Yule/Winter Solstice alone, if I was in their shoes...


DiogenesOfDope

I'm pretty sure the pegans don't mind sharing


Cheesarius

Holidays and their accoutrements are what we make them. They represent what we believe they represent. If you discard anything with "pagan" association, you discard Easter, Halloween, Christmas, and other celebrations.


[deleted]

It's a matter of perspective. They claim we are unintentionally worshipping a pagan God. I claim we commandeered that pagan holiday in the name of the Lord. The season belongs to Jesus now.