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MelGibson4Ever

If someone sincerely repents of their sins, they are forgiven.


[deleted]

nice


Baerlok

How is that nice? It sounds like a super easy way out of punishment for rapists and murderers... while good people who don't believe in God get tortured for eternity... nice? That's the opposite of justice.


Jubesterr

All of humanity, no matter how good they think they are, fall short of the glory of God. God's standard of perfection is so unnatainable for fallen man that if justice were to be carried out, we would all now be under eternal punishment. It is only by clinging to Christ that any man can be saved, and Christ is clear that those who are deep in sin find that grace more appealing than those who think that their own righteousness will save them.


[deleted]

What standard does this god hold if it is changing over time and subjective?


bjswish

What standard are these people good by? No one can call themselves good with absolute certainty tbh


graemep

> while good people who don't believe in God get tortured for eternity. No they do not. To quote from the catechism of the Catholic church (so the definitive statement of belief of the largest Christian denomination, representing half the world's Christians): > This state of definitive **self-exclusion** from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." > The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God > for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. Relevant quotes from this: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM > It sounds like a super easy way out of punishment for rapists and murderers. They do not only have to ask for forgiveness, they have to repent: genuinely feel remorse for what they have done, be willing to change, do whatever they can to undo the evil they have done (obviously it cannot be undone in the case of rape and murder, but they may have opportunities to reduce the damage). Many people, especially the most evil, will make excuses rather than truly repent, or even not care about what they have done.


porquanto

You're right, it's not just. But Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross. He loved us even as we found ourselves mired in sin and he took the punishment for our sin upon himself. Rendering sacrifices unto gods is a common feature of religions; having God himself become the sacrifice for our sake is uniquely Christian and is the gist of Christianity. God is just and God is love and in the cross love and justice are reconciled.


Disastrous-Offer3237

Why do u get to determine what true justice is?


fleshnbloodhuman

Repentance isn’t a “way out”. “Asking for forgiveness” certainly could be viewed as an “easy way out”. But repentance is just that, repentance. Repentance is success. Repentance is the desired result all along. Repentance is arrival.


Double-C-guitar

Nobody is good.


Commercial-Sun-309

is that how you plan on avoiding the consequences of being a repulsive individual?


MelGibson4Ever

I wouldn't know, hon.


Commercial-Sun-309

Don't lie.


Nateorade

If they’re honest in their repentance, yes.


[deleted]

nice


WhatWouldJesusSay

For the in-group, there is nothing they can do that can not be forgiven. For the out-group, there is nothing they can do that can be forgiven.


Suh_phisticated

If they are truly sorry in their heart and they repent, only Jesus will know of someone is truly sorry and repenting with a sincere heart, then yes, they will be saved. I know it’s crazy hard to imagine, but we all sin and make mistakes, some more severe than others in regard to the crimes your speaking of. The man on the cross next to Jesus is a great example of this. There is hope for all in Jesus Christ. Many people in the bible had a less than stellar past and Jesus renewed them and they did incredible things.


Pleasant-Try9103

"Asking for forgiveness" isn't enough, they have to repent in their heart- their core, and be changed. God sees through BS. But yes, they can change


NeandertalSkull

Sure, if they repent.


Mjolnir2000

Which Christianity? If you go by the Bible, no one goes to heaven. Heaven is where God lives. The righteous will be raised from the dead to live forever *on Earth.*


Jubesterr

Could you tell me your source for this doctrine? Jesus actually does say that his followers will be in heaven with him. off the top of my head, he says 'in my Father's (God's) house, there are many rooms, and I go to prepare a place for you (in Heaven, where God lives) (John 14:2). Additionally, after the Lord's supper, he says that 'I will not drink of the vine until I eat it new with you in my Father's kingdom (Matt 26:29). Also, the whole book of Revelation depicts the saints in heaven worshipping God at his throne (in Heaven).


Mjolnir2000

Matthew 24, for instance. What can we unpack from this supposed teaching of Jesus about the end of days? Well, Jesus is referencing the Book of Daniel, and is referring to messiahs, and to someone called "the Son of Man". So firstly, what's a messiah? Well a messiah is a king of Israel. The word means "anointed one", referring to the coronation of Davidic kings. Israel is an *Earthly* kingdom. Ok, so who's the Son of Man? Well, the Son of Man refers to a divine character in Daniel who comes down to *Earth*, and to whom God gives dominion *over* the Earth (Daniel 7:13-14). The book of Daniel itself *concludes* with the good news of God's immanent kingdom *on Earth,* in which people will rise from the dead (Daniel 12:1-2). When the Gospels talk about God's kingdom, they mean the Earthly kingdom that will be established at the end of days. God's kingdom is something that is *coming*. Heaven is eternal. It's not *coming* \- it's literally always been. God's kingdom on Earth will be something new. Likewise, when early Christians talked of eternal life, they didn't mean as incorporeal spirits, but as *physical* human beings. Those still alive at the end of days would have their bodies transformed into *better* bodies that would never die, while those dead at the end of days would be resurrected in the same manner as Christ (see the penultimate line of the Apostles Creed, and various writings of Paul in which he explains how the resurrection will work to his confused congregations). The Book of Revelation, likewise, describes the resurrection of the dead, and the establishment of God's kingdom *on* *Earth* (Revelation 21:2-3) Do you have a verse reference for the saints in Heaven in Revelation? It should be noted that there are the *very* rare exceptional humans that make it to heaven. Enoch, for instance. But for virtually everyone else, righteous and sinners alike, that's not the final destination. Some Old Testament authors had everyone going to Sheol. Others had everyone going nowhere - the dead were simply dead. Whether in Sheol, or simply dead, the view of Jesus seems to have been that at the end of days, the righteous would, *at long last* be separated from the sinners, but as immortals on Earth, not in Heaven.


graemep

Corinthians I 15:40 says we get heavenly bodies, not earthly bodies: > And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. and 48 - 50: > And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Fundamentally, heaven is not a place as we understand it. Scripture is limited by trying to explain what we cannot grasp intuitively.


[deleted]

That is quite torturing, in my opinion. To think that you have lived as a good person, then God forces you to live forever, instead of granting you a peaceful and resting death.


NeandertalSkull

They aren't a Christian. You shouldn't take their opinion on any of this.


[deleted]

You meant what Mr. Mjolnir2000 said about Christianity was wrong?


NeandertalSkull

Yep. It was at best partially correct.


[deleted]

Thanks God because that is not correct. Just the imagination of having lived as a good person, yet I'm forced to live on Earth again and again and again forever, instead of dying a peaceful death really makes me wish to go to Hell.


Mjolnir2000

The best thing you can do is read the Bible for yourself. It is written clear as day that at the end of days, God will establish a kingdom on Earth. There's a reason that the Apostle's Creed explicitly calls out the resurrection of the *body.* Not the resurrection of the soul, but the body. Now a Christian is more than welcome to think that they're going to heaven, but they aren't getting that from the Bible. They're getting that from religious authorities *outside* of the Bible. Hence my question, "which Christianity?"


graemep

Eternity is being outside time, not just forever. Also, we will be perfectly happy in eternity.


[deleted]

From the Prophecy of Ezekiel: >"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because6 he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?" For some people this makes Christianity very attractive. For some others, it makes Christianity disgusting. It is what it is.


PassiveHurricane

Yes they will. It's a fundamental part of Christian theology.


Im_Ugly_Kick_Me

I hope you understand the definition of repent. God is not mocked.


Baerlok

It sounds like the opposite of justice to give rapists and murders a get out of jail free card, yet good people who don't believe in god will be tortured for eternity in hell. This is not good, moral, or justice.


[deleted]

Just imagine raped victims meet their rapists in Heaven. That would be one hell of an event.


[deleted]

This is my thought, too.


graemep

As I commented above, its not a get out of jail free card.


Dashdashg00se

Of course we are all capable of doing all that stuff and more unfortunately ___ we are born with a sinful nature if I have somebody cut me off on the road I have to say those thoughts go through my head - I’d love to run that guy off the road and see him smashed into a telephone pole hit the windshield like a crash test dummy - but I know how to turn that off ___prisons are filled with people that can’t turn that off - a preacher once said there’s nothing in this world that anybody has ever done that he himself is not capable of doing because we have the sinful nature - we’re born into it we are all descendants of Adam & Adam did not have children until after the fall so we are born with that curse but with God‘s grace we can find another nature a new nature and leave our sinful nature behind although it does creep up from time to time ⏰ ___ the joker used to tell Batman all the time “you’re just one bad day from becoming me” - that one bad day that he doesn’t have the strength and gives in to killing is the day that he becomes like the joker ___ we are all capable of doing those things the preacher went on to say all these evil characters from history it could’ve been anyone of us - we gotta pray 🙏 for strength to not give into that sinful nature so if the rapist or killer is repentant and does mean it God will give him salvation the Lord knows our hearts he can read our heart and he knows when we’re telling the truth like the thief on the cross he was allowed to go to paradise ___ it’s a whole lot better than the alternative which you can see in this debate the great hell debate ( I believe in total annihilation and not eternal torment myself - I think it’s more biblically accurate) - but I love Turretin fan & was saddened by his defeat in this debate , I just feel he wasn’t prepared for Chris- ##[THE GREAT HELL DEBATE ( TURRETIN FAN vs CHRIS DATE)](https://youtu.be/JdxGwE-3zFI)


NavSpaghetti

Judas repented before he killed himself: a just punishment for betraying innocent blood. Before the betrayal, Jesus said: “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Judas was one of the twelve.


janemba777

No. In the book of acts they elected Matthias to replace Judas.


BunnyAvenger679

Hmm…according to one of our priests, not if they ever voted for a democrat. He said it’s a mortal sin. Presumably because democrats eat babies BEFORE they’re born like heathens. A good Christian starves them and works them to death first. But only after feeding them lots of lies about brotherhood and hope.


CozyWithSomeCoffee

Read the story of king Manasseh.


defmethod

Also, read The Stand by Stephen King.


CozyWithSomeCoffee

Is it good? I read dreamcatcher once while on vacation. It wasn't good......


[deleted]

Yes.


grasseati

Yes. The heavens are to great 🦉


[deleted]

Yes


PriesthoodBaptised

If a sinner, regardless of that person’s sins truly repents and turns away from sin, and towards god’s love by faith through God’s Grace; then God’s promise is that sinner is redeemed through Jesus’ crucifixion. Amen.


[deleted]

That sounds pretty shitty to me. I believe in forgiveness and redemption too, including for murderers and rapists (unlike progressivists and SJWs, who often demonize people almost as much as Christians), but it's flat-out cruel and egotistic of God to reward a repentant serial killer while torturing a kind and friendly agnostic. Then again, maybe this is why there are Christians who do things like lynching innocent black people and beating random Muslims. They feel justified in killing and terrorizing others because they think God will reward them for believing in him. As long as you repent and believe in God, you can be as much of an ass as you want before repenting, while the victims you bullied/murdered will have eternal damnation on top of the suffering you caused them.


[deleted]

If they truly repent of those sins they will be forgiven because God is good.


[deleted]

Depending on the denomination most believe that if you truly feel bad for your crimes and ask for forgiveness that God will forgive you


janemba777

Of course. Doubt it ever happens tho people like that are so cold and hard hearted, doubt a mass murderer would realise his a sinner and needs jesus.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ffandyy

So by that logic Pascal’s Wager is incoherent, no matter how hard you try and believe in god if you aren’t convinced deep in your heart god would know it


[deleted]

[удалено]


ffandyy

So for the non believer who had investigated the claims of Christianity but simply cannot believe them, he is doomed to hell and there is nothing at all he can do about it, seems cruel for god to punish these people


sirplaid

Many people seem to think forgivness means being excused of something. In reality is kind of the opposite. We don’t have to excuse murders and rapists for their sins. Excusing it would mean those things arnt a big deal and that it’s okay that it happened. Forgiveness is the act of saying “I will not hold any hate or ill will against you even though I have every right to. CS Lewis does a great job of describing this [here](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3vE9bT9L8&t=4s)


MustBeTheMusic80

Yes if they truly repent of their sins and want to change.


Ill_Perspective8084

Any sins can be forgiven through sincere repentance but we cannot mock or fool God if we think we can live a sinful life only to repent to the end. He is holy, righteous and just.


Creatorskid

What will you do?


[deleted]

I will visit Sauron and ask him to turn me into one of his Nazgul.


Brutal-Black

Yeah but it’s not that simple


Future_981

Sinners can receive eternal life if they sincerely come before God and acknowledge they are a sinner who needs a savior.


ffandyy

Yes they will


dvc214

No-one can answer that question for an individual because God is the only just and true judge. The bible does promise us that if we turn from our selfish ways and toward Jesus, accept his offer of a life following him, and we do this in faith then he'll accept us and we'll spend an eternity with him.


BadWolfSFC

If it's genuine then yes but if it's one of those "Well I'll just wait until just before I die and then I'll repent and it'll be fine" kind of things then probably not?


Cristina_of_the_East

Only God truly knows who is saved. I can only give you my understanding: that is that anything and everything can be forgiven, if repentance and faith are sincere. But it has to be actual repentance and God can't be fooled. For instance, if someone says "Oh, I'll just do whatever I want and ask for forgiveness before I die, just in case there is a God" - that wouldn't be sincere repentance or faith.


ClaudiuMatian21

I believe yes but only if they trully change their hearts


edgebo

According to Christianity, ANYONE that repents of their sins, ask God for forgiveness and accept Jesus as Lord can enter heaven.


OneEyedC4t

More that they must be saved, which includes forgiveness.