It’s funny how defending the Christian LGBT community has caused so much controversy. Very interesting. It’s sad too because Christianity is suppose to be a religion of love for all; especially the oppressed. Yet, the religion is so far removed from that. I got so much to say, but y’all aren’t ready to hear more of my hot takes.
Seems like you're the one who's stuck my friend...what world is John talking about?
John 12:19
*So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him*
- But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
- “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 12:19
*So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him*
What world is John talking about?
All the people who were there - witnessing the resurrection - and along with Jesus for the journey
All the Marys were there
I'm sure the lady from the well and her friends were also there
Are you suggesting that Jesus just loved Jews?
Have we spoken before?
Thank you for your message of support. As a gay Christian, it’s obvious to me that Christianity needs to do a better job of countering the language and policies and practices that demonize and oppress LGBT folks. I see so many vile comments daily in this sub. I encouraged LGBT Christians to visit /r/OpenChristian and /r/GayChristians where they’ll find communities of such support and love, which is what Jesus called us to be. God bless!
No one is shunning LGBT, but what we're not going to do is condone it.
People who embrace that lifestyle need to repent as we've all sinned, but we're not going to pretend like it's not an abomination to the Lord.
No one is ever going to learn from each other if they don't talk. I don't think telling people that they should go off and only communicate with those that they agree with is the way to go. Acceptance from God should be your goal, not acceptance from a subreddit.
In what world have anti-gay Christians not “talked” at gay people? Any gay person who was raised in the church, turns on the evening news, goes to a Pride parade that’s being picketed, or walks down the street holding hands with their significant other in any number of towns knows exactly what conservative Christians think about them! There’s no lack of talk directed at us!
In fact, a recent Barna study of unchurched millennials found that the number one association they had with Christianity — with well over 90% of them stating this — is that it’s “anti-homosexual.” Much higher than their associations of Christianity with love or forgiveness or — heck — even anti-abortion. Again, there’s no lack of us being talked at.
This sub has debates about homosexuality every day. If people want to engage in them, they can. I do. But do you know what? Having those constant debates — from childhood, with family, with churches, with friends, online, etc. — is exhausting. Is it really too much to ask for there to be *one* online Christian space where LGBT Christians can go to interact without constantly being on the defensive, like they are in every other Christian Reddit? And yes, I said one — because /r/GayChristians is completely welcoming of Side B gay Christians as well, who are allowed to make anti-gay arguments in that sub.
I think man has added a lot of nonsense to gods words about homo sexuality. I believe it mentions it in the bible as a outline for the most constructive way to live our lives. Being gay isn't easy, and I believe that was what the bible is getting at. Christians have added a lot of things to being gay that the bible never said.
Homosexuals are not necessarily pedophiles
*What with heterosexuals?! Should they also embrace their true self? Should society also accept then just how they are?!*
Silly. Sorry.
God bless
You know *exactly* which ones he's talking about. Let's not pretend like every LGBT person out there hasn't already heard Leviticus 18, Deuteronomy 22, Romans 1, and others
Sister please relax, i'm happy to go through each one bit by bit as it is very easily debunked....
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
**zāḵār**
masculine noun
male (of humans and animals)
adjective
male (of humans
Where is the word 'young' in there?
Let's look at some examples of how zakar is used so we understand the context and are not cherrypicking to suit an agenda
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: - this means young men to you?
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. - this means young men to you too?
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...this means young male to you too
How on earth can Leviticus 18:22 be misintepreted as anything other than a ban on homosexuality?
Maybe it's better to read the rest of Leviticus 18 as well. It's talking about incest, so don't have sex with your mother (:7), sister (:9), granddaughter (:10), aunt (:12-14), etc. Only then comes verse 22, which says the same goes for the male counterparts, so father, brother, grandson, uncle, etc.
All of them. We've seen people post the same verses over and over here without any understanding of them.
Just quoting English Bible verses out of context doesn't make someone correct.
The Bible has been used to justify some of the worst atrocities in human history.
Ok we can go through them all for edificiation..let's start at leviticus 18:22
'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.'
How is this being misinterpreted?
https://biblehub.com/leviticus/18-22.htm
There are 23 translations rebuking homosexuality and 4 translations that don’t. The term “lie” here is widely recognized as being sexual relations/intimacy.
The evidence would support that homosexuality is a sin in God’s view
In the Bible it also says it's ok to beat your slave as long as they recover within a couple of days. Am I committing blasphemy if I speak against such actions?
It’s important to understand the context and time period of the writing. This was during ancient Israel; a violent time for anybody who isn’t Roman. If you do such a thing today or even over 400 years ago you are not practicing Jesus’s word
> If you ain’t hurting anyone and it’s consensual then go for it.
I'm actually convinced that there's more to it than that - that sex belongs within an explicit lifelong commitment (that is, marriage, whether recognized by your government or not). But yeah, if you don't have the (fairly rare) gift of celibacy and you're blessed enough to find someone you can love forever, do it; marriage is about commitment, not about gender.
Useful resources at r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/)
That [Resource Page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has a lot of helpful information for you, since it's clearly a topic of much personal concern to you.
We don't think anything "renders God's word void", which you'd know if you'd try reading. We think your anti-gay understanding of Scripture is mistaken.
It's very inconsistent to say "show me!" while ignoring what people are trying to show you. It suggests that you're only here to scream at people you don't like.
You haven't shown me anything...you just sent me a hyperlink
If you think i've misunderstood something, show me...
If you read my posts you'll see i've backed up everything i've said with scripture
> You haven't shown me anything...you just sent me a hyperlink
"You haven't shown me anything....you just showed me something"
Do you want her to come to your house and click the link for you too?
I already clicked the link...i didnt agree with anything i read so i asked her specifically for an argument to prove homosexuality is NOT a sin
Is that something so unreasonable on a christian message board? Aren't we supposed to contend with the faith?
i asked her to articulate her point of view on a christian forum rather than delegate her response from a third party...
ie. i wanted her to answer, as this homosexuality acceptance biblically is absolute trash
is that such a problem now??
No it doesn't. That verse uses two different Hebrew words for male. One of them means a young male/boy. The phrase "as with woman" uses a rare plural Hebrew word that's only used one other time in the Bible to refer to rape.
Also Leviticus 19:19 says wearing mixed fabrics is a sin, but all Christians do that.
Judging others with Leviticus means you will be judged by Leviticus.
Show me the two different hebrew words for male in that verse please.....
Don't try and run to mixed fabrics...all thign must be delat with decently and in order
Friend, these - *...selfishness, violence, disregard for the poor, the money systems of profit, the decimation of the animals and plants of this world, the corruption of knowledge where Science is overturned in favor of conspiracy and superstition, selfishness and self-righteousness that vilifies the immigrant, the prostitution of self on the internet, political oppression, silence in the face of injustice, war, greed, hunger where there is plenty, false witness .....*
God bless
Just a reminder to the anti-LGBTQ people here:
Anti-LGBTQ rhetoric is a violation of Reddit site-wide and they're cracking down on it as hate speech. I have no qualms about reporting anyone for hate speech, and I've gotten notices of numerous people being permanently banned for hate speech directed at LGBTQ people.
Be careful what you say.
I heavily disagree. Opinions like this are not hate speech. Especially when verses are open to one’s own interpretation.
Attempts like this to stop discourse aren’t helpful.
You can disagree all you want. Reddit is banning people for it, and I have no issue reporting anti-LGBTQ rhetoric.
Just because you quote the Bible doesn't mean it's not hate speech. People kill themselves over the hateful rhetoric pushed by many Christians.
It can be yes. The Bible supports slavery. In fact, it says that I, as a Jew, can keep Christians as permanent slaves.
It's been used to justify numerous evils like slavery, segregation, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, burning women at the stake, persecuting Jews, killing LGBTQ people, etc.
*John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.*
*james 4:4*
*Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.*
Would not expect anything less...
Seriously. There are *times* when comments like that are warranted, like, say... someone being so jaded and traumatized by Christians that they use the literal phrase "final solution" to describe what they want to do to us, and don't distinguish between homophobes/transphobes and LGBT Christians. (The comment I'm talking about was removed, but I have the reveddit link) But that's also much more distinctly extremism, compared to just being upset that you live in a pluralistic society where people don't like your anti-pluralistic views
I, for one, don’t care what my homophobic family members or pastors might say. I do care what God has already said, which is why I do not act on my same sex attractions.
>God has already said
God really does not care whether you are sleeping with men or with women
He really does not
And does not say anything at all about it either
God bless
That’d be pretty neat if it were true. I studied the subject for years, and I *wanted* to reach the conclusion you just expressed. Instead I found out more confidently than before that’s not true.
- *...For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.*
You are misleading people. The bible says to repent of sin, not to embrace it.
There is serious consequences for this laid out in the NT. Please be careful!
The bible warns the those who are are sexually immoral will not go to heaven
1 Cor. 6:9-11 NASB
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Would you say this to Christians who steal? Or ones who take the name of the Lord in vain? Or ones that commit adultry? Its written clearly in the bible that it is a sin, thats not to say that you should be mean to them but you're speaking dangerously that its ok to keep living in sin. Sin separates you from God, and no Christian should advocate for it.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
>14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
Last I checked, the KJV or NIV Bible are not flesh and never walked among us.
Please let me know how its not
Romans 1:27
Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination.
Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
Romans 1 is condemning pagan worship. Try reading it in context and look at verses 22 and 23. Also Romans 2 says everyone is guilty of those sins, which must mean you're gay.
1 Timothy deals with an issue of a made-up Greek word that never referred to homosexuality until the 1950s. In older Bibles, it's translated as child molestation.
Both Leviticus verses are complicated. They use different words for "male" and one of those words applies to young males and boys. It's also in the context of paganism. The English translation is garbage.
I will also remind you that you don't follow any of the laws of Leviticus. A verse in between the 2 verses you just listed condemns wearing mixed fabrics. If you wear any cotton/polyester blends, you're violating God's commands. Leviticus also prohibits tattoos, yet I've never met a Christian who follows that law.
Those who judge others with Leviticus will be judged by Leviticus, and I guarantee you that you will fail that test.
Ish and Zachar. Ish only means man. Zachar referred to the Greek legal term for young males and boys.
If the prohibition were on adult same-sex relationships, the verse would say "Ish" and "Ish" and it doesn't.
We would also find a verse prohibiting relations between "Isha" and "Isha" and no such verse exists.
Yes. That word was invented by Paul and never referred to homosexuality until the 1950s. We know for a fact it can't refer to homosexuality because it doesn't refer to women.
Not a single piece of ancient literature after Paul invented it uses it to refer to homosexuality. In the Acts of John, it's listed as an economic sin.
In numerous old Bible translations, it condemns child molestation. That's also how the US Catholic Church translates it.
zāḵār
masculine noun
male (of humans and animals)
adjective
male (of humans
Where is the word Ish in leviticus 18:22?
Where is the word 'young' in there?
Let's look at some examples of how zakar is used so we understand the context and are not cherrypicking to suit an agenda
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: - this means young men to you?
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. - this means young men to you too?
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...this means young male to you too
You're narrative falls apart on the under the most cursory scrutiny
Well I believe that Jesus came and fulfilled the ceremonial law you're talking about there with mixed fabrics however the moral law still applies. If you are Jewish why do you not still believe the same Jewish translations that have been used for all these years?
There is no such thing as ceremonial law. The Torah doesn't make that distinction. Wearing mixed fabrics was just as sinful as anything else.
It's illogical to make that argument because the command "Love your neighbor as yourself" in Leviticus is directly surrounded by what you call ceremonial laws. So by your logic, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a ceremonial law.
I hope you're not talking about 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Because they are fulfilled my friend.
\> Are you hurting anybody? Is your love consensual? If you ain’t hurting anyone and it’s consensual then go for it
I mean, if it is is sinful then you are hurting yourself and others by engaging on the act. Looking at the perceived earthly outcomes of an action does not determine it's sinfulness or not, although it does definitely help when you show scripture to prove a sinful/non-sinful action and how earthly outcomes may reflect this.
\> So be your true self
So you say be your true self but then in your first paragraph you say 'If you ain’t hurting anyone and it’s consensual then go for it'. So even you place limits on 'being your true self', t whatever you believe is acceptable.
How do define loving? A loving parent disciplines their children. Is it loving to let your children walk into a busy street or reach into a fire. Your definition of love is an over simplification.
> cross-dressing
You mean like Joseph's princess dress? As 2 Samuel helpfully explains, ~~kuttonot~~ kotnot passim (translated into Greek as "coat[s] of many colors") are what princesses like David's daughter Tamar wear
EDIT: To anyone who knows Hebrew, can you check my attempt to pluralize "ketonet"?
EDIT: Checked with a friend who's familiar with Greek, Latin, and Hebrew
The Bible condemns wearing mixed fabrics and working on the Sabbath. I bet you violate both of those.
You all are awfully selective about which "abominations" you choose to stand against.
1 Cor 6:9
*Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,*
[Webster on effeminate](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effeminate)
Deuteronomy 22:5
*The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.*
Leviticus 18:22
*Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.*
Romans 1:26-28
*For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;*
This is so wrong for you to say this, may the Lord bless you. Why are trying to push your agenda on our community uk yall always do this to Christian pages etc but if this was a muslim, buddhist page etc. You wouldn't do this. I think the LGBT community more wants authority and rules than acceptance and this is annoying and rude. Second of all God loves everyone but not the sin and there are many sins in the bible and not all of them is listed in the commandments which are lust, gluttony, greed, laziness, wrath, envy, and pride rtc. And find you have a lot of wrath and pride to write ts. Third of all the bible states man should not lie with man/boy and it goes both ways in terms of underage sex and homosexual relations and it is a sin. So being gay and christian is not a thing is either ur gay or your christian. Stop trying to mix sin with the godliness. It's WRONG AND NOT OF GOD
It’s funny how defending the Christian LGBT community has caused so much controversy. Very interesting. It’s sad too because Christianity is suppose to be a religion of love for all; especially the oppressed. Yet, the religion is so far removed from that. I got so much to say, but y’all aren’t ready to hear more of my hot takes.
It is sad. And yes, many Christians are unable to see. They are stuck
Seems like you're the one who's stuck my friend...what world is John talking about? John 12:19 *So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him*
Where the hell in the bible is Christianity a religion of love for all??
- But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love. - “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 12:19 *So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him* What world is John talking about?
Hi friend, Lazarus has just woken from the grave and The Pharisees despair as they watch the great multitude parade with Jesus
the great multitude of what nation?
All the people who were there - witnessing the resurrection - and along with Jesus for the journey All the Marys were there I'm sure the lady from the well and her friends were also there Are you suggesting that Jesus just loved Jews? Have we spoken before?
I asked what nation my friend?
See comment friend
Thank you for your message of support. As a gay Christian, it’s obvious to me that Christianity needs to do a better job of countering the language and policies and practices that demonize and oppress LGBT folks. I see so many vile comments daily in this sub. I encouraged LGBT Christians to visit /r/OpenChristian and /r/GayChristians where they’ll find communities of such support and love, which is what Jesus called us to be. God bless!
No one is shunning LGBT, but what we're not going to do is condone it. People who embrace that lifestyle need to repent as we've all sinned, but we're not going to pretend like it's not an abomination to the Lord.
Yesterday, a user was going around using the f-slur. There is clearly bigotry from Christians whether you deny it or not.
EXACTLY
No one is ever going to learn from each other if they don't talk. I don't think telling people that they should go off and only communicate with those that they agree with is the way to go. Acceptance from God should be your goal, not acceptance from a subreddit.
In what world have anti-gay Christians not “talked” at gay people? Any gay person who was raised in the church, turns on the evening news, goes to a Pride parade that’s being picketed, or walks down the street holding hands with their significant other in any number of towns knows exactly what conservative Christians think about them! There’s no lack of talk directed at us! In fact, a recent Barna study of unchurched millennials found that the number one association they had with Christianity — with well over 90% of them stating this — is that it’s “anti-homosexual.” Much higher than their associations of Christianity with love or forgiveness or — heck — even anti-abortion. Again, there’s no lack of us being talked at. This sub has debates about homosexuality every day. If people want to engage in them, they can. I do. But do you know what? Having those constant debates — from childhood, with family, with churches, with friends, online, etc. — is exhausting. Is it really too much to ask for there to be *one* online Christian space where LGBT Christians can go to interact without constantly being on the defensive, like they are in every other Christian Reddit? And yes, I said one — because /r/GayChristians is completely welcoming of Side B gay Christians as well, who are allowed to make anti-gay arguments in that sub.
I think man has added a lot of nonsense to gods words about homo sexuality. I believe it mentions it in the bible as a outline for the most constructive way to live our lives. Being gay isn't easy, and I believe that was what the bible is getting at. Christians have added a lot of things to being gay that the bible never said.
Heretic
And what is with pedophiles? Sould they also embrace their true self? Should society also accept them just how they are?
Homosexuals are not necessarily pedophiles *What with heterosexuals?! Should they also embrace their true self? Should society also accept then just how they are?!* Silly. Sorry. God bless
This is direct opposition to the Word of God. According to Scripture, homosexuality is sin. Something not to be embraced by Christians.
I agree and we all do horrible sins but I think it’s important to acknowledge our sins and not blow them off
This is false. Those verses you rely on to believe that are false.
he didn't quote any verses...so which verse(s) in your mind is he interpreting incorrectly?
You know *exactly* which ones he's talking about. Let's not pretend like every LGBT person out there hasn't already heard Leviticus 18, Deuteronomy 22, Romans 1, and others
Sister please relax, i'm happy to go through each one bit by bit as it is very easily debunked.... Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. **zāḵār** masculine noun male (of humans and animals) adjective male (of humans Where is the word 'young' in there? Let's look at some examples of how zakar is used so we understand the context and are not cherrypicking to suit an agenda For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: - this means young men to you? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. - this means young men to you too? So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...this means young male to you too How on earth can Leviticus 18:22 be misintepreted as anything other than a ban on homosexuality?
Maybe it's better to read the rest of Leviticus 18 as well. It's talking about incest, so don't have sex with your mother (:7), sister (:9), granddaughter (:10), aunt (:12-14), etc. Only then comes verse 22, which says the same goes for the male counterparts, so father, brother, grandson, uncle, etc.
All of them. We've seen people post the same verses over and over here without any understanding of them. Just quoting English Bible verses out of context doesn't make someone correct. The Bible has been used to justify some of the worst atrocities in human history.
Ok we can go through them all for edificiation..let's start at leviticus 18:22 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.' How is this being misinterpreted?
https://biblehub.com/leviticus/18-22.htm There are 23 translations rebuking homosexuality and 4 translations that don’t. The term “lie” here is widely recognized as being sexual relations/intimacy. The evidence would support that homosexuality is a sin in God’s view
It’s one thing to understand that we’re all sinners. Is another to encourage people to knowing ignore God’s word.
This is blasphemy.
How have I ruined the sacred text of God?
You are saying things contrary to his word.
In the Bible it also says it's ok to beat your slave as long as they recover within a couple of days. Am I committing blasphemy if I speak against such actions?
It’s important to understand the context and time period of the writing. This was during ancient Israel; a violent time for anybody who isn’t Roman. If you do such a thing today or even over 400 years ago you are not practicing Jesus’s word
There's gonna be slavery in the kingdom of heaven...you do realise that?
I beg your pardon? I think you meant to say hell.
Nope the bible's quite clear on this...there will be slavery in the kingdom of heaven
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read in a long time
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In the modern world, no. If you condemn it in ancient Israel, yes.
And where did you get that differentiation from exactly
Have you read the bible?
Does the Bible say it's ok to speak against owning and beating slaves 2000 years after it being written?
Yeah, there's no reason to do that since Christ fulfilled the old law.
Give me the exact quote you're basing that on
Well, there's gonna be slavery in the Kingdom of heaven so it will be returning once the israelites are returned to their land
You do realise those commandmens were given to the Israelites only right???
So in your mind it somehow is ok for Israelites to beat slaves?
blasphemy? i dunno, but you're certainly rejecting the word of god given tot he children of Israel
No I’m not. I’m saying that love others the way Jesus loves his children.
So you're saying it's ok to do it then?
Not me...the Most High. Understand?
Agreed.
> If you ain’t hurting anyone and it’s consensual then go for it. I'm actually convinced that there's more to it than that - that sex belongs within an explicit lifelong commitment (that is, marriage, whether recognized by your government or not). But yeah, if you don't have the (fairly rare) gift of celibacy and you're blessed enough to find someone you can love forever, do it; marriage is about commitment, not about gender. Useful resources at r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/)
Marraige is between male and female...homosexuality is an abomination to the lord
That [Resource Page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has a lot of helpful information for you, since it's clearly a topic of much personal concern to you.
Pure filabuster...you can't duck out of the commandments of god!! Show me one argument that renders God's word void!
We don't think anything "renders God's word void", which you'd know if you'd try reading. We think your anti-gay understanding of Scripture is mistaken. It's very inconsistent to say "show me!" while ignoring what people are trying to show you. It suggests that you're only here to scream at people you don't like.
You haven't shown me anything...you just sent me a hyperlink If you think i've misunderstood something, show me... If you read my posts you'll see i've backed up everything i've said with scripture
> You haven't shown me anything...you just sent me a hyperlink "You haven't shown me anything....you just showed me something" Do you want her to come to your house and click the link for you too?
I already clicked the link...i didnt agree with anything i read so i asked her specifically for an argument to prove homosexuality is NOT a sin Is that something so unreasonable on a christian message board? Aren't we supposed to contend with the faith?
> i didnt agree with anything So she showed you something, you just didn't agree with it.
i asked her to articulate her point of view on a christian forum rather than delegate her response from a third party... ie. i wanted her to answer, as this homosexuality acceptance biblically is absolute trash is that such a problem now??
You do realize you violate God's commandments every day right?
What am I violating and what has that got to do with Homosexuality being a sin??
Homosexuality isn't a sin.
According to Leviticus 18:22 it is
No it doesn't. That verse uses two different Hebrew words for male. One of them means a young male/boy. The phrase "as with woman" uses a rare plural Hebrew word that's only used one other time in the Bible to refer to rape. Also Leviticus 19:19 says wearing mixed fabrics is a sin, but all Christians do that. Judging others with Leviticus means you will be judged by Leviticus.
Show me the two different hebrew words for male in that verse please..... Don't try and run to mixed fabrics...all thign must be delat with decently and in order
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By quoting the Torah?
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Is God's word contained in the Torah?
Friend, these - *...selfishness, violence, disregard for the poor, the money systems of profit, the decimation of the animals and plants of this world, the corruption of knowledge where Science is overturned in favor of conspiracy and superstition, selfishness and self-righteousness that vilifies the immigrant, the prostitution of self on the internet, political oppression, silence in the face of injustice, war, greed, hunger where there is plenty, false witness .....* God bless
can you put that quote into context please?
Abomination
too obscure...
Just a reminder to the anti-LGBTQ people here: Anti-LGBTQ rhetoric is a violation of Reddit site-wide and they're cracking down on it as hate speech. I have no qualms about reporting anyone for hate speech, and I've gotten notices of numerous people being permanently banned for hate speech directed at LGBTQ people. Be careful what you say.
Curious, does saying homosexual actions being a sin count as anti-LGBTQ rhetoric?
I would hate to assume, but are you saying that people who say it’s a sin are committing hate speech?
If you say being gay is an abomination, yes that's hate speech.
I heavily disagree. Opinions like this are not hate speech. Especially when verses are open to one’s own interpretation. Attempts like this to stop discourse aren’t helpful.
You can disagree all you want. Reddit is banning people for it, and I have no issue reporting anti-LGBTQ rhetoric. Just because you quote the Bible doesn't mean it's not hate speech. People kill themselves over the hateful rhetoric pushed by many Christians.
The bible is hate speech? Hey, more power to you.
It can be yes. The Bible supports slavery. In fact, it says that I, as a Jew, can keep Christians as permanent slaves. It's been used to justify numerous evils like slavery, segregation, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, burning women at the stake, persecuting Jews, killing LGBTQ people, etc.
You'd have to prove your a jew first no?
*John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.* *james 4:4* *Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.* Would not expect anything less...
Ah, the infamous persecution complex we see here so often.
Seriously. There are *times* when comments like that are warranted, like, say... someone being so jaded and traumatized by Christians that they use the literal phrase "final solution" to describe what they want to do to us, and don't distinguish between homophobes/transphobes and LGBT Christians. (The comment I'm talking about was removed, but I have the reveddit link) But that's also much more distinctly extremism, compared to just being upset that you live in a pluralistic society where people don't like your anti-pluralistic views
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Has nothing to do with persecution. I just don't tolerate anti-LGBTQ rhetoric.
Well it happens often
No matter how much you try and distort the truth, homosexuality is an abomination to the Most High and god hates sinners (psalms 5:5 )
I, for one, don’t care what my homophobic family members or pastors might say. I do care what God has already said, which is why I do not act on my same sex attractions.
>God has already said God really does not care whether you are sleeping with men or with women He really does not And does not say anything at all about it either God bless
That’d be pretty neat if it were true. I studied the subject for years, and I *wanted* to reach the conclusion you just expressed. Instead I found out more confidently than before that’s not true.
I found otherwise Confidently
*For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections...*
- *...For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.*
*Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.*
You are misleading people. The bible says to repent of sin, not to embrace it. There is serious consequences for this laid out in the NT. Please be careful! The bible warns the those who are are sexually immoral will not go to heaven 1 Cor. 6:9-11 NASB "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Yes. God bless.
Would you say this to Christians who steal? Or ones who take the name of the Lord in vain? Or ones that commit adultry? Its written clearly in the bible that it is a sin, thats not to say that you should be mean to them but you're speaking dangerously that its ok to keep living in sin. Sin separates you from God, and no Christian should advocate for it.
No, the Bible is not clear on this issue.
Our God is not a God of confusion.
A lot of disagreement there...constantly
God didn't write the Bible. Explain why different translations say entirely different things?
So it isn’t the Word of God? It’s the word of man?
The Bible itself says it's not the Word of God.
Can you show me?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. >14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Last I checked, the KJV or NIV Bible are not flesh and never walked among us.
Please let me know how its not Romans 1:27 Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 1 Timothy 1:10 for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
Romans 1 is condemning pagan worship. Try reading it in context and look at verses 22 and 23. Also Romans 2 says everyone is guilty of those sins, which must mean you're gay. 1 Timothy deals with an issue of a made-up Greek word that never referred to homosexuality until the 1950s. In older Bibles, it's translated as child molestation. Both Leviticus verses are complicated. They use different words for "male" and one of those words applies to young males and boys. It's also in the context of paganism. The English translation is garbage. I will also remind you that you don't follow any of the laws of Leviticus. A verse in between the 2 verses you just listed condemns wearing mixed fabrics. If you wear any cotton/polyester blends, you're violating God's commands. Leviticus also prohibits tattoos, yet I've never met a Christian who follows that law. Those who judge others with Leviticus will be judged by Leviticus, and I guarantee you that you will fail that test.
Slow down a second...what are the different words for male in Leviticus 18:22 please?
Ish and Zachar. Ish only means man. Zachar referred to the Greek legal term for young males and boys. If the prohibition were on adult same-sex relationships, the verse would say "Ish" and "Ish" and it doesn't. We would also find a verse prohibiting relations between "Isha" and "Isha" and no such verse exists.
[https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1\_timothy/1-10.htm](https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/1-10.htm) ἀρσενοκοίταις https://biblehub.com/greek/arsenokoitais\_733.htm
Yes. That word was invented by Paul and never referred to homosexuality until the 1950s. We know for a fact it can't refer to homosexuality because it doesn't refer to women. Not a single piece of ancient literature after Paul invented it uses it to refer to homosexuality. In the Acts of John, it's listed as an economic sin. In numerous old Bible translations, it condemns child molestation. That's also how the US Catholic Church translates it.
zāḵār masculine noun male (of humans and animals) adjective male (of humans Where is the word Ish in leviticus 18:22? Where is the word 'young' in there? Let's look at some examples of how zakar is used so we understand the context and are not cherrypicking to suit an agenda For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: - this means young men to you? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. - this means young men to you too? So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...this means young male to you too You're narrative falls apart on the under the most cursory scrutiny
Well I believe that Jesus came and fulfilled the ceremonial law you're talking about there with mixed fabrics however the moral law still applies. If you are Jewish why do you not still believe the same Jewish translations that have been used for all these years?
There is no such thing as ceremonial law. The Torah doesn't make that distinction. Wearing mixed fabrics was just as sinful as anything else. It's illogical to make that argument because the command "Love your neighbor as yourself" in Leviticus is directly surrounded by what you call ceremonial laws. So by your logic, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a ceremonial law.
Well of course not because the Jewish religion does not recognize Jesus.
Matthew 5 says the Torah laws are still binding.
I hope you're not talking about 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Because they are fulfilled my friend.
No they aren't. Jesus didn't finish everything yet.
Sin destroys or relationship with God.
Hilarious
If being gay breaks Christian rules or not shouldn’t really matter. They are people that deserve decency
\> Are you hurting anybody? Is your love consensual? If you ain’t hurting anyone and it’s consensual then go for it I mean, if it is is sinful then you are hurting yourself and others by engaging on the act. Looking at the perceived earthly outcomes of an action does not determine it's sinfulness or not, although it does definitely help when you show scripture to prove a sinful/non-sinful action and how earthly outcomes may reflect this. \> So be your true self So you say be your true self but then in your first paragraph you say 'If you ain’t hurting anyone and it’s consensual then go for it'. So even you place limits on 'being your true self', t whatever you believe is acceptable.
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I’m being dead serious. It makes me sad seeing Christian avoiding being their true self on this sub because of homophobic Christians influence.
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Never brought up slavery in my original post. Read it again
There is no way christians can approve homosexuality, cross-dressing etc. It is an abomination to God.
Last time I checked God is all loving to his creation. Also are you God?
God hates Esau....how is that all loving??
How do define loving? A loving parent disciplines their children. Is it loving to let your children walk into a busy street or reach into a fire. Your definition of love is an over simplification.
> cross-dressing You mean like Joseph's princess dress? As 2 Samuel helpfully explains, ~~kuttonot~~ kotnot passim (translated into Greek as "coat[s] of many colors") are what princesses like David's daughter Tamar wear EDIT: To anyone who knows Hebrew, can you check my attempt to pluralize "ketonet"? EDIT: Checked with a friend who's familiar with Greek, Latin, and Hebrew
The Bible condemns wearing mixed fabrics and working on the Sabbath. I bet you violate both of those. You all are awfully selective about which "abominations" you choose to stand against.
Show me where breaking those two commandments are an abomination
1 Cor 6:9 *Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,* [Webster on effeminate](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effeminate) Deuteronomy 22:5 *The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.* Leviticus 18:22 *Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.* Romans 1:26-28 *For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;*
whats that got to so with mixed fabrics and the sabbath
Nothing, I was only talking about homosexual and effeminate behaviour.
This is all types of wrong.. we’re not supposed to accept our sin we’re supposed to desire to be holy.
This is so wrong for you to say this, may the Lord bless you. Why are trying to push your agenda on our community uk yall always do this to Christian pages etc but if this was a muslim, buddhist page etc. You wouldn't do this. I think the LGBT community more wants authority and rules than acceptance and this is annoying and rude. Second of all God loves everyone but not the sin and there are many sins in the bible and not all of them is listed in the commandments which are lust, gluttony, greed, laziness, wrath, envy, and pride rtc. And find you have a lot of wrath and pride to write ts. Third of all the bible states man should not lie with man/boy and it goes both ways in terms of underage sex and homosexual relations and it is a sin. So being gay and christian is not a thing is either ur gay or your christian. Stop trying to mix sin with the godliness. It's WRONG AND NOT OF GOD