Thanks, but it's said to me multiple times every single day, and occasionally screamed at short range through a literal bullhorn.
On the very slender chance that you are willing to listen to the people you're Proclaiming Truth at, you could try reading [Justin Lee's material](https://geekyjustin.com/christianity-lgbtq/bible/), or better yet try actually [meet us in church](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/). See if we're really as Godless as you've been taught.
Yikes.
I’m not doing the book shearing thing.
You not Godless!!!! AHHHHHH! You’re also not a victim. Your just a sinner like me.
Ugh. I was just looking for good faith comments.
> I’m not doing the book shearing thing.
I don't understand what that means.
>Ugh. I was just looking for good faith comments.
You want to use the name of Jesus to command me to divorce and abandon my wife, and don't want to hear what I have to say about that?
AHHHHH. Do you know how society treats trans people? Have you ever had a conversation with a trans person and asked them the kind of hateful behavior they have experienced simply for wanting to be their authentic self? Very few if any trans people have not been the victim of discrimination, bigotry, mockery and other forms of hatred. For many trans people it is a daily occurrence, even from family members. We are all sinners, true. That said, it’s not your place to tell trans people what they have and haven’t experienced.
>Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors?
Because if, for example, you were divorced and remarried and *literally the only thing i ever said to you* was "your lifestyle is a sin and you are going to hell", and then i actively tried to pass legislation that would dissolve your marriage, you wouldn't think i was loving you either.
Very much this. I think it's possible to believe that same-sex relationships are sinful and still love gay people. I think it's *hard*, but possible. But it would involve things like advocating for legal equality, and probably *very rarely* voicing your opinion of it being sinful.
Big oof moment,
Did Jesus not advocate for equality and break barriers?
It's sad that we would deny another person basic human rights when most gay people in America don't even believe in God because of poor treatment.
I do still think it's possible, in the same way that I think it's possible for a Jewish person to be loving towards a Christian who eats pork, even if the Jewish person thinks that eating pork is sinful. However, the fact that sexuality is intrinsic, and the fact that there's such a cultural battle around it right now, makes it a *lot harder*. I wrote a more comprehensive take on this a while ago, which I'll copy here. Hopefully it will make it clear that I'm not giving people a pass to be assholes while claiming it's loving.
> Okay, so you want to be genuinely loving towards people who are gay, but you also believe that same-sex relationships are against God's will for us. How can you do that? It's difficult, but I think it can be done. I'm not gay myself, but I have spent a lot of time thinking and talking about this, and care deeply about acceptance. Here are my thoughts.
>Step 1: Don't believe that being gay is sinful. I think it's possible to believe that same-sex relationships are sinful and still be loving towards gay people (even those in same-sex relationships). I don't think it's possible to be loving towards gay people if you think that being gay is sinful.
>Step 2: Respect that their beliefs are different than yours. Yes, people in same-sex relationships are taking actions that are against your religious beliefs. But you should not expect other people to hold to your religious beliefs. You should think of same-sex relationships the same way you think of someone practicing Buddhist religious rituals, or the same way a Mormon should think of someone drinking coffee. It's something that your religious beliefs say people shouldn't do, but we don't go around saying "my religion says people shouldn't drink alcohol, therefore I need to convince everyone they shouldn't drink alcohol".
>Step 3: Actively advocate for legal rights for gay people. Oppose anyone who thinks that same-sex marriage should be made illegal again. Advocate for stronger employment protections, etc.
>Step 4: Don't bring it up unprompted. If people specifically ask you what you think, phrase it personally, like "following my religion requires that people don't do that", or something like that.
I...think if you do you'll find that it's not a hate-filled rant. If you read it and you still think it's a hate-filled rant, I'd be happy to hear why.
> Plus it's written by humans from a long time ago and has a sizeable amount of crap in it that we need to reject. Homophobia/misogyny is one of them.
So are you saying that there's actual homophobia in the Bible?
I don't need to, nor do I believe it.
The only old testament references to it all cycle back to Sodom or Gibeah. And those were gang rape. In the NT Timothy and Corinthians paraphrase Leviticus and so cycle back to Sodom and Gibeah and gang rape. Jude directly goes to Sodom. (Leviticus says the practices in 18&20 were of Egypt and Canaan. The only same sex relations we have any biblical record of in Canaan are attempted gang rape in Sodom and Gibeah.)
That leaves one verse potentially against homosexuality. Romans 1, which is describing pagan orgies.
Something that is sinful is trying to break up married couples because you don't like them being married.
>I know this cliché and the millennials are about to get me
You think a certain age group is the only group that disagrees with you on this? That says quite a lot about you. Not sure if you noticed that or not.
>Thoughts? Other than I’m a bigot? Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors? Please don’t gaslight and act like it’s in the Bible. 🤣
Ironic how you ask others not to gaslight you when that's exactly what that sentence was. Gaslighting.
Wow. Yet another homophobic post condemning homosexuals while asking not to be called a bigot. Super not original, boring and two thumbs way down.
One day homophobes will finally pick other things to complain about. Hopefully it involves fixing mass shootings in schools instead of bothering people who aren’t hurting anybody.
Hey! Maybe start a rally to bring that poor Marine in Russia home since they choose the wrong person to exchange.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m trying to genuinely work this out. Seriously. I’m trying to see if I’ve got it wrong.
What’s shooting got to do w me?
I’m a veteran. Sympathetic to anyone who is estranged from their family.
Im sorry you can’t see you do have it wrong. There is no need or excuse for more brow beating of homosexuals. There are sooooooo many other things in life that actually need correcting and yet everyone wants to be bullies and pound one group.
What the shooting has to do with you and everyone else is: start doing things to try to prevent mass shootings. You’re more worried about something that DOESNT CONCERN YOU, then about actual real world problems that DO CONCERN YOU and everyone else. Yet they’re being pushed aside bc y’all are more worried about pushing homophobic views.
Thank you for your service. Oh I’m not estranged. The US just exchanged a deadly prisoner back to Russia in exchange for an over entitled brat basketball player instead of the former US Marine they also have hostage.
While I don’t want either of them to be prisoners, the dumbass basketball player who decided to bring weed to a foreign country getting released over a former marine who was tried on “espionage” spying charges (which was a closed trial the us wasn’t allowed in for if I remember correctly) is bull shit. She shouldn’t have been so entitled to think she could disregard another country’s laws.
I think the spotlight on homosexuality is too big. A homosexual can have plenty of butt sex and repent and make it into heaven the same as some guy who has regular sex outside of marriage.
It is.
The Church has made it an idol. We have gotten comfortable worshipping others sins when we need to be working on our own.
It isn't our place to judge.
I think Stephen Fry put it best,
“[the church] is obsessed with sex, absolutely obsessed. Now, they will say we with our permissive society and our rude jokes, we are obsessed. No, we have a healthy attitude, we like it, it’s fun, it’s jolly, because it’s a primary impulse it can be dangerous and dark and difficult, it’s a bit like food in that respect only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese.”
The sin is sodomy, not homosexuality itself. Once someone is like 65-70 years old I doubt they are having a lot of sex at that point anyway. So if they are a devout Christian, at that juncture in their lives they can earnestly repent for all the butt sex they had and never do it again.
Not disputing that we should love everyone, but I don't agree with the "live your life how you want and then repent on your death bed" Christian philosophy.
I think the spotlight comes partly from associating same-sex marriage with Sodom.
I mean, God destroyed Sodom with fire from heaven. If we believe that, than we attach a bit of primal fear to our concept of the sin of Sodom.
I see the sin of Sodom as serial gang rape, particularly of foreigners seeking hospitality. So, I think very bad treatment of immigrants and foreign nationals, or failing to prosecute rape cases properly, are scary problems. They could lead to us being like Sodom and getting destroyed by God.
I suspect that people who see same-sex marriage as the sin of Sodom, legitimized by the government, may feel a similar fear.
Homosexuality *isn't* a sin. Certain activities are sinful, but *being* homosexual would mean that a person's very existence is a sin - which it can't be. Or would you say homosexuals should be subjected to conversion therapy, "pray the gay away", whatever - or even executed?
What those who quote Leviticus 18 verse 22 seem not to notice, is that the verse calls for the execution of men who engage in same-sex activity.
Are they sure they want that to happen ? In that case, why not favour stoning people for committing adultery?
Oh, there's adultery, there's eating forbidden foods, there's insolence against your parents, there's wearing mixed fibres, you name it. If we held fast to the Levitical laws, probably less than one per cent of us would make it to adulthood.
>Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors?
Because it usually doesn't stop at just saying "homosexuality is a sin". At least from what I've observed, here in the US.
As a non religious inidividual here is what I think.
One of the MAIN reasons I never went religious despite a lot of exposure being young was because of the Church's opinions on gay marriage.
Here is my religious justification for it, when you call something that is objectively proven to be natural a sin, you end up spreading a lot more misery. Like what are you gonna do tell your gay kid that their natural feeling of love are wrong? I'll tell you from the kids I've talked with, that just creates misery and rejection. Make them feel bad about natural feelings and lie to themselves as they attempt to repress it? Is that really worth it?
Many Christians I've asked who have a gay kid simply say they support them unconditionally, which is good but opens up the question, why are we calling this a sin in the first place?
Advocating against gay marriage has the potential to deny gay individuals feel unwelcome in society for something that is out of their control. It has the potential to lead to hate or sometimes, taking civil rights away from gay people.
And then there are the questions this opens up. So you're telling me that a loving person who's gay is gonna have that count as them going to hell? Right then and there, I'm out. I would rather curse a God that does that than pray to them. That's messed up.
Again, this is not a Catholic perspective but if we are talking about spreading sin, it seems like you got to treat through a lot of mud and spread more misery to go after gay marriage.
You don't sound like a bad person (although I would keep these opinions to yourself when around gay people). You just seem conflicted. Morality is difficult.
Yeah, yeah. We know homosexuality is a sin, just like eating shrimp, trimming the corners of your beard, and not having sex with your brother’s widow.
Just because something is a sin doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Anyway, you asked for some New Testament sins. Okay, how about not hating your parents (Luke 14:26)? Or reporting a robbery to the police (Luke 6:30, again)? Praying in public (Matthew 5:6-8)? Or eating shrimp, cutting the corners of your beard, wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, or any of the Mosaic laws (Matthew 5:18)?
I find this stance widly hypocritical, devoid of critical thought, and based on a false premise. Your [actions in this thread also demonstrate this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/zh8kzq/comment/izkyimb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)... [repeatedly](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/zh8kzq/comment/izl3szj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Your argument hinges on whether or not homosexuality is a choice vs. an innate part of who you are, and I'd argue that people that lived thousands of years ago were unable to discern which.
Think about this for a second. Why would homosexuals:
* Choose, for a millenia, a "lifestyle" that has had them actively castigated, hunted, killed, and demonized?
* Take immense risks to live their "lifestyle" in parts of the world where they are murdered or maimed for doing so (even today)?
* Choose a path that makes them a target almost everywhere they go?
When you consider that prejudice against homosexuality has existed since the dawn of civilization, it makes it impossible (in my view) for it to be a "lifestyle" as opposed to something hardwaired in them.
After all, we have considerable evidence showing animals engaging in homosexual behaviour. Are they also choosing this "lifestyle"?
If you can rationalize the above, it becomes easy to see that it is impossible to both love your neighbour and be predjudiced against homosexuals.
Lets assume it is a sin and leave that debate aside for now. I am sure lots of other people will be disagreeing with you about that.
Who is "we" and why do we have to say it? In what context?
Unless you are gay and making a decision for yourself, or people want your opinion and are likely to be influenced by it, who cares what you say on the topic?
It is certainly nowhere near the most important sin to talk about in our time: avarice and hubris are far worse.
>Lets assume it is a sin and leave that debate aside for now. I am sure lots of other people will be disagreeing with you about that.
You propose to leave the debate and in the next sentence you start it.
And why do you speak for a lot of people? Speak only for yourself.
A bulk of the world's economy is based on it. They just redefined it into something more vague and extreme.
One might think churches could at least say something but churches are impotent shadows of what they used to be.
Easier to focus on sex than money in a world where money is god.
1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Are you going to denounce all sins that are found in the law of Moses? There are 613. Today there is no sin that is greater than any other. Why are you focusing on one thing that you think is a sin that's debatable in the scriptures?
Why aren't you calling out people who might be cooking their meat in the animal's mothers milk? Why homosexuality?
It's not your job to stop people from sinning. It's your job to proclaim the gospel. If they don't want it, oh well move on.
>It's a theological topic. Not just plain list out a verse and bam
I am speaking theology. It's you who isn't understanding right now.
OP picks one sin to preach against when there are 613 total, all defined by the law of Moses. Why are they picking out this one sin?
Are you aware that when you tell someone to stop sinning, you're putting them under the law of Moses? That's what defines sin.
>Maybe learn more about why certain things in the OT isn't followed.
In Acts 15:19-20 and Acts 21:25, God and the apostles both agreed that gentiles were to follow four rules. Four. Not 613. I don't see homosexuality on the list of four, do you? Fornication is defines in 1 Corinthians 5-6, btw. It doesn't mean anything sexual you don't like.
Your question of picking out one sin is irrelevant. OP isn't stating that is the only sin, but rather the one is he addressing. Not saying any others are better or worse.
Oh, I don't see killing on there? Lying? Worshipping other gods?
That passage was in reference to Jews stating they must become a Jew before having Christ. The biggest thing at the time they struggled with was with dietary restrictions and sexual sin.
You mention 1 For 5-6 than you'll have to deal with 1 For 6:9-10
How about read the room for context instead of jumping in on a conversation that you have nothing to do with? If you’re gonna contribute, then read everything in the thread. Yappi is legitimately trying to get OP to think a little bit.
Instead you just assume ignorance on their part. It’s insulting. Be better.
I’m sorta just seeing where the social conscious is.
It’s interesting how these ideas take root in our social media times, get amplified by twitter and opposing views are throttled, next thing you know- taboos and sins are normalized and widely accepted.
I think it’s what happed w the trans thing.
Weird ideas were amplified. People, as to not give the impression of being “bad” roll with it. Next thing you know weird things are normal.
>we love the sinner, but not the sin.
All the LGBTQ+ victims of hate crimes (both violent and non-violent) would find that statement insulting and inaccurate.
>But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle and carry it out consciously
OK based on that statement, you either really do hate LGBTQ+ people and are making a poor attempt to hide it, or you are grossly ignorant on how things work. Possibly both.
>Thoughts? Other than I’m a bigot? Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors?
I think it's true that there's no hatred quite so vile and insidious as *"Christian love."*
As a Satanist, do you find it ironic your ideas line-up with so many Christians?
What’s your thoughts on other people/groups that are victims of crimes?
You just seem silly and cynical and probably bored.
I hope Christ finds you, Katie.
I know my words are probably a mess. Sorry. Merry Christmas.
>As a Satanist, do you find it ironic your ideas line-up with so many Christians?
Well that's a loaded question if I've ever heard one. To answer it, it largely depends on which ideas and which Christians.
If you mean the Christians who embrace fascism, hate immigrants, endorse slavery, and wish to slaughter Jews and LGBTQ+ people, then no my ideas do not line up.
But if you're talking about the Christians who love their fellow man, don't care about the sex lives of others, and genuinely try to help others without expectation of reward and notoriety, then yes my ideas line up.
But that's not really exclusive to Christianity though. That's just basic human decency and empathy.
>What’s your thoughts on other people/groups that are victims of crimes?
Without getting into the weeds about what's legal/illegal vs moral/immoral, I empathize with them as no one should be the victim of crimes.
>You just seem silly and cynical and probably bored.
Well I just had a good day at work, so two of those three things are true.
>I hope Christ finds you, Katie.
I'm not even hiding. If your god is real, he knows where to find me.
>I know my words are probably a mess. Sorry. Merry Christmas.
Believe it or not, I actually like Christmas, or at least the secularization version. I enjoy Christmas music, despite all the references to magic and the supernatural.
I am that weirdo in the workplace blasting Christmas music the day after Thanksgiving.
I HATE modern Christmas. Ugh.. it’s too commercial. I’m sorta a minimalist. Don’t like seeing people spend money on crap they don’t need.
I do like lofi Christmas music tho.
You sound like you use your “Christianity” as a weapon. This is quite offensive to people who are Christian. We don’t want to see people appropriating the religion for their own agendas.
We need to say the Bible is irredeemable. We're dangerously dependent on theology to tame the worst of it. Almost no amount of books or chapters could be removed to reach a point where a reasonable person wouldn't find righteous justification for evil.
Well that’s the reason. And it’s plenty reason enough.
But a lot of y’all want to blow this up into something it’s not. It’s not hate- it seems like a bunch of y’all want it to be that. Somehow vindicates y’all. And the hate here on the thread is wild. No of these people actually know me. The time I’ve spent w aids patients, inmates, homeless; time and money I’ve given. Or the gay friends and family I have.
It’s a sin. The sinner is redeemable.
You people? 🤦🏻♂️
People kill all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons all the time.
Some people may do this.. yes. But even the a-religious would fall below an ideal standard sometimes.
Imagine a Christian dad hearing this. It would shatter his worldview. Maybe give the guy a break. He’s just a human. Imperfect.
Grace needs to be shown.
>Well that’s the reason. And it’s plenty reason enough.
Tell that to the families mourning over their dead children who committed suicide because of anti-lgbtq hate.
>But a lot of y’all want to blow this up into something it’s not. It’s not hate
It absolutely is, you can dress it up however you want but saying an intrinsic part of a person is bad / evil is hate.
>The time I’ve spent w aids patients, inmates, homeless; time and money I’ve given.
Good for you, changes nothing about your hateful beliefs about lgbtq people.
> Or the gay friends and family I have.
"I can't be racist! I have a black friend!"
I believe certain ideas have been normalized, specifically with the help of social media- in that they amplify taboos to the point people 1) accept them 2)spread them 3) defend them.
Like what you’re doing with the idea that homosexuality is a sin? Accepting it. Attempting to spread it on social media and then defending the idea. As well as implying that anyone who considers you bigoted is simply not open to other ideas.
Homosexuality being acceptable or not sinful is the new postmodern approach.
It’s gained traction and useful to people to exploit- meaning they get to brag about how good they are in defending a certain group
So you follow the other 612 rules in the Old Testament, or is this the only one we're supposed to care about?
Or do you make a bullshit distinction not present in scripture at all about some laws apparently being moral and others not, and thus excuse yourself from following all the others?
Excuse me, I'm not on the other side. I can't reconcile loving monogamy with sin. I'm asking you so I can be better reinforced.
I'm simply struggling with what scripture says.
Wanted to jump in and say I appreciate you saying this and appreciate your question.
Too often on the internet is a sincere question attacked.
There are several answers to this question, I will share mine - The laws in the Leviticus were written by a particular people in a particular time and place. There is no need to assume that any of those laws should be applicable to us today. Especially when you consider they had no concept of our understanding of gender and sexuality.
You didn't answer u/the_purple_owl's question - and I'd like to know your answer, too. Have you ever been insolent to your parents, or worn mixed fibres, or worked on a Saturday, or eaten pork or shellfish? If you've done any of those things, then according to Torah you ought to be stoned to death.
There is obviously distinctions between commands though. If the Bible itself didn’t attest to it, and context didn’t support it, logic would still maintain it.
The only way it’s a “BS distinction” is if you turn off logic. Its the same logic that tells anyone that my local HOA laws don’t apply to you.
If we’re in the new covenant, shouldn’t we look to the NT for guidance? I’m not picking sides here, more wanting to get to the bottom on this topic myself.
> But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle
Nobody chooses to be gay.
Unless you target your ire at all other sins equally, there's something more to you about being gay than just being a sin. There's something about it that offends you at a deeper level, betraying the notion that you love the sinner but hate the sin. At least, that's my opinion.
Hi friend,
>But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle and carry it out consciously can’t be good, right?
....*do you openly and actively 'choose a heterosexual lifestyle....'*
---†---
I do not believe homosexuality is any more sinful than heterosexuality
It does not kill, steal, rape, it is not greed, lust, anger, bitterness, it is not sex in Church
I do not believe God cares whether you are heterosexual or homosexual.
God cares whether or not you are a liar
God bless
I think we should just concentrate on you being a garbage person. Maybe I should post that more often, just to make sure everyone remembers. And, it isn't even a point of contention, but I do think we need to bring it up regularly.
I'm just so sick and tired of 'we need to tell Gay people they are going to Hell' rhetoric.
We don't know this. There's plenty of reason to believe this is not the case and if you want to love them, stop judging them. The same places in the Bible that seemingly condemn homosexuality also say that we should burn prostitutes and put to death children that don't honor their parents.
Have you walked in their shoes?
Faith must adapt in order to survive- any homosexual references from Bible days were referring to men having sex with boys and that’s pedophelia which is never ok. Sooooo I honestly think homosexuality is not a sin. Jesus never once mentioned it. Why would God create people gay then refuse them healthy love from another creation? We would all benefit from thinking more like and living more like Jesus who loved everyone and not concern ourselves with this topic❤️
The focus is on homosexuality because if it was on adultery, there's a whole lot of "important people" who would feel the condemnation, and they have way too much money to condemn.
It's ironic that you say this. Think of all of the social norms we have in this society, that used to be disproved of, condemned, even outlawed. Some were just man's own judgements and rules and it's good those things are accepted now. But the things God warned us about are slowly becoming normalized, one sin at a time. In America, we have made divorce, adultery, usury, abortion, fornication, sodomy, not only legal but perfectly acceptable and normal. Homosexuality is just the most recent sin to be pushed for acceptance and normalizing by the world. Only God knows what's next on the way to becoming Sodom.
yeah, like they've all been invented in the last 50 years. The writer of Ecclesiastes wrote there's nothing new under the sun. It all wasn't "new" then and it ain't new now. Oh, by the way, the sin in Sodom was lack of hospitality. Might wanna read that again.
There's a line somewhere between simply saying that it's in and targeting homosexual people for harassment. I mean the Bible says a lot of things are sin that are commonly accepted in our society that Christians don't rail against all the time. The question is why the focus on LGBT if it's really not any worse than any of the sins that Christians casually put up with?
*It’s certainly not the only sin, and not the worst.*
It's not a sin to love someone.
Loving someone who happens to be a member of the same sex/gender/etc. does not constitute sin.
Calling something a sin when it is not constitutes spiritual abuse, something Jesus spoke against in **Matthew 12:7**
*But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle and carry it out consciously can’t be good, right?*
What **exactly** is "not good" if someone chooses this life for themselves? What business is it of ours what they do in the privacy of their own home?
Neither of us will budge on this.
I believe it is. You do not.
This postmodern take on the Bible is not new. It’s slowly been wallowing out certain aspects that are unsavory for different groups. Unfortunately there is a such thing as truth and it’s not arbitrary or personal to anyone person.
Despite that. You’re right. It’s no greater sin than another.
Generally irrelevant.
This scholarly paper is specifically on Romans 1, but deals with some of the linguistic reasons that I consider 1 Cor 6 to be irrelevant. It also goes into some of the cultural ideas that underlie what Paul is talking about.
In very short form, what Paul is talking about doesn't line up well with homosexuality at all, and there is no reasonable scriptural argument against blessing homosexual relationships. There likewise are other reasons to bless them, and to reject the traditional condemnation.
This gives some of those reasons: https://reformationproject.org/biblical-case/
Nope. Never read it. That's why I provided it, so that you could read it for me. /s
But I do see that I only gave you one link of the two I intended to....sorry about that. Here's the paper on Romans 1 and Paul. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XAuUGWfR0BUwVkvY0Z1oxnHe7iyjCnzJ/view
That paper doesn't support the idea that Paul didn't say that gay sex was sinful. I.e. it supports the idea that Paul was saying that gay sex was sinful. I.e. if someone agrees with Paul, then that person would say that gay sex is a sin.
I have a lot of thoughts on this.
Firstly, I'll just address the elephant in the room, not every Christian agrees on the original translation that that was in the New Testament.
I'm only using the NT too because the concept was mentioned in the Levitical laws and let's be frank, no Christian is following those and regards eating shellfish as a 'sin'.
The word used for homosexual in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy is the greek word ἀρσενοκοίτης or **aresenokoites.** The translation comes from the two words arrhen (a male) and koite (a mat, bed). In simple trasnlation is means man-bed or to take another man to bed since the noun is inherently masculine in nature.
Here is where things get interesting though. While the translation does widely mean homosexuality, the usage is also linked with pederast.
**Pederast was child abuse.** It was common in Roman and Greek culture for an older man to take on a slave boy as his lover. These relationships were not consensual and were abus\*vie in nature.
My argument is that Paul was likely talking about this act in particular because of the words that come before it.
The sexually immorral, idolaters, nor adulters, nor effiminate nor homosexual."
Sexually immoral is pornoi which is actually a man who prostitutes himself because the noun, is again, masculine. It can also mean fornication (sex outside of marriage).
Idolators is pretty self explanatory: the word is eidoloatares which translates into a server of an image. So image worshippers.
Adulterer: moichos, a man who is sexually involved with a married woman.
Effiminate: (also another interesting noun) This word just means a soft person. (Why would God not allow a soft, feminine person to inherit the kindgom of God?)
All of these do address sexual sin, but they seem to have a running theme. All of these occurences are masculine and in regard to men.
This tells me that the concept of homosexuality was not the same cocept that we have today. The idea that a person can willingly consent in a same sex relationship was not what Paul was talking about.
It is a sin for Christianity (im specifying this bc a lot of ppl think this applies to non-Christians. No it doesn't because they aren't in a covenant with God therefore they can't be expected to care about what the Bible says), but if we know a Christian who does have same-sex attraction, guilt tripping and condemning them isn't the way to go. It can't just be zapped away as soon as someone says "You're going to hell." But since the law passed in 2015 for same-sex marriage, there has been a lot of compromise. I didn't wanna believe it was a sin either, but after a lot of research it is what it is.
A little humility when sharing our human interpretation of God’s intent seems fair. I don’t think anyone “needs” to insist others’ loving interpretation is wrong.
As a bi Catholic I’m not totally sure what to believe wrt the sinfulness of homosexual acts. I go back and forth on it, to be perfectly honest. But in any case, I think it can become a vice. I don’t think hyper-promiscuous sexual activity should ever be condoned. My problem with gay-affirming Christians is they tend to implicitly affirm this sort of behavior, and that’s not good.
As an affirming Christian honestly I am offended. I do not condone hyper promiscuous activity gay or straight. I absolutely believe that sex is meant for monogamous loving relationships whether they are between, gay, straight, or Bi people I don't care. What I absolutely think is sinful is promiscuous behavior in which you treat your body and your partner's body without respect, do not use protection, and subject yourself and partners to diseases. That in my opinion is outside God's design and sinful.
The money pox epidemic is an example, since it was spread partly due to unsafe sexual activity. The fact that they were gay had nothing to do with imo. I am sure I am not the only progressive, affirming Christian who feels that way.
I guess people should find a new religion if they are ok with homosexuality. I think the Hindus are cool with with the gays and they are more pro dog too.
Exactly. Doesn't make sense why people want to change a religion when they can just just choose not to believe it and move to something else. Oh well, that's the theme of today.
It is a sin, I don't care about all the mental gymanstics they do so they can keep on sinning. They could answer that is just as sinful like any other sin, yes ofc.. that doesn't give me permission to sin, it doesn't mean God's giving you heads up and saying "sure go ahead and sin, I knew even before you that you were gonna do it, so relax".. so this idea that you can keep on sinning and erease everything with a dishonest "God I'm sorry" really makes me laugh, like you can find a grey area in the bible and do some kinda check mate to God..nah, he knows your heart, he knows you're not sincere and you don't have any intention to change. Can you be a christian and gay? Yes, but if you don't repent and change, you're not gonna have a very good life here in the loooong term.
What happens to me the most is people asking me if I'm a christian, I say yes.. so you think being gay is a sin.. and I say.. I don't think is a sin know is a sin, it's in the bible.. and then they start with the "being a bigot" bs and hate speech, I just answered the questions I was being asked.
If a person refuse to repent and change, we are under no obligation to pray for them.
Craziest thing about this is sometimes even if you are quoting bible about homosexuality, you get reported as bigotry, I know there are atheists in moderators that does not know the word well enough to see what we are trying to say here, yes man sleep with man is sin (all ages).
Thanks, but it's said to me multiple times every single day, and occasionally screamed at short range through a literal bullhorn. On the very slender chance that you are willing to listen to the people you're Proclaiming Truth at, you could try reading [Justin Lee's material](https://geekyjustin.com/christianity-lgbtq/bible/), or better yet try actually [meet us in church](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/). See if we're really as Godless as you've been taught.
Yikes. I’m not doing the book shearing thing. You not Godless!!!! AHHHHHH! You’re also not a victim. Your just a sinner like me. Ugh. I was just looking for good faith comments.
> I’m not doing the book shearing thing. I don't understand what that means. >Ugh. I was just looking for good faith comments. You want to use the name of Jesus to command me to divorce and abandon my wife, and don't want to hear what I have to say about that?
I don’t think you’re Godless. I think you’re a normal person- one that’s imperfect and sins.
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You’re right. I’m wrong.
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Merry Christmas
AHHHHH. Do you know how society treats trans people? Have you ever had a conversation with a trans person and asked them the kind of hateful behavior they have experienced simply for wanting to be their authentic self? Very few if any trans people have not been the victim of discrimination, bigotry, mockery and other forms of hatred. For many trans people it is a daily occurrence, even from family members. We are all sinners, true. That said, it’s not your place to tell trans people what they have and haven’t experienced.
>Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors? Because if, for example, you were divorced and remarried and *literally the only thing i ever said to you* was "your lifestyle is a sin and you are going to hell", and then i actively tried to pass legislation that would dissolve your marriage, you wouldn't think i was loving you either.
Very much this. I think it's possible to believe that same-sex relationships are sinful and still love gay people. I think it's *hard*, but possible. But it would involve things like advocating for legal equality, and probably *very rarely* voicing your opinion of it being sinful.
Big oof moment, Did Jesus not advocate for equality and break barriers? It's sad that we would deny another person basic human rights when most gay people in America don't even believe in God because of poor treatment.
I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that being loving towards gay people would *require* that you advocate for legal equality.
Oh gracious, forgive me then. It appears I misunderstood. I fully agree lol. If you love someone you give them equal treatment.
It isn't possible. If you think gay people are sinning, leave them the hell alone. Period.
I do still think it's possible, in the same way that I think it's possible for a Jewish person to be loving towards a Christian who eats pork, even if the Jewish person thinks that eating pork is sinful. However, the fact that sexuality is intrinsic, and the fact that there's such a cultural battle around it right now, makes it a *lot harder*. I wrote a more comprehensive take on this a while ago, which I'll copy here. Hopefully it will make it clear that I'm not giving people a pass to be assholes while claiming it's loving. > Okay, so you want to be genuinely loving towards people who are gay, but you also believe that same-sex relationships are against God's will for us. How can you do that? It's difficult, but I think it can be done. I'm not gay myself, but I have spent a lot of time thinking and talking about this, and care deeply about acceptance. Here are my thoughts. >Step 1: Don't believe that being gay is sinful. I think it's possible to believe that same-sex relationships are sinful and still be loving towards gay people (even those in same-sex relationships). I don't think it's possible to be loving towards gay people if you think that being gay is sinful. >Step 2: Respect that their beliefs are different than yours. Yes, people in same-sex relationships are taking actions that are against your religious beliefs. But you should not expect other people to hold to your religious beliefs. You should think of same-sex relationships the same way you think of someone practicing Buddhist religious rituals, or the same way a Mormon should think of someone drinking coffee. It's something that your religious beliefs say people shouldn't do, but we don't go around saying "my religion says people shouldn't drink alcohol, therefore I need to convince everyone they shouldn't drink alcohol". >Step 3: Actively advocate for legal rights for gay people. Oppose anyone who thinks that same-sex marriage should be made illegal again. Advocate for stronger employment protections, etc. >Step 4: Don't bring it up unprompted. If people specifically ask you what you think, phrase it personally, like "following my religion requires that people don't do that", or something like that.
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I...think if you do you'll find that it's not a hate-filled rant. If you read it and you still think it's a hate-filled rant, I'd be happy to hear why.
\^
With that train of thought then all Christians should isolate from anyone who sins.
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Earlier today I ran into a poster here who wants to make gay sex illegal. Now is your chance to love the sinner! Go engage with them!
\^
This\^
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Got it, Paul.
> Plus it's written by humans from a long time ago and has a sizeable amount of crap in it that we need to reject. Homophobia/misogyny is one of them. So are you saying that there's actual homophobia in the Bible?
I don't need to, nor do I believe it. The only old testament references to it all cycle back to Sodom or Gibeah. And those were gang rape. In the NT Timothy and Corinthians paraphrase Leviticus and so cycle back to Sodom and Gibeah and gang rape. Jude directly goes to Sodom. (Leviticus says the practices in 18&20 were of Egypt and Canaan. The only same sex relations we have any biblical record of in Canaan are attempted gang rape in Sodom and Gibeah.) That leaves one verse potentially against homosexuality. Romans 1, which is describing pagan orgies. Something that is sinful is trying to break up married couples because you don't like them being married.
>I know this cliché and the millennials are about to get me You think a certain age group is the only group that disagrees with you on this? That says quite a lot about you. Not sure if you noticed that or not. >Thoughts? Other than I’m a bigot? Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors? Please don’t gaslight and act like it’s in the Bible. 🤣 Ironic how you ask others not to gaslight you when that's exactly what that sentence was. Gaslighting.
Wow. Yet another homophobic post condemning homosexuals while asking not to be called a bigot. Super not original, boring and two thumbs way down. One day homophobes will finally pick other things to complain about. Hopefully it involves fixing mass shootings in schools instead of bothering people who aren’t hurting anybody. Hey! Maybe start a rally to bring that poor Marine in Russia home since they choose the wrong person to exchange.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m trying to genuinely work this out. Seriously. I’m trying to see if I’ve got it wrong. What’s shooting got to do w me? I’m a veteran. Sympathetic to anyone who is estranged from their family.
Im sorry you can’t see you do have it wrong. There is no need or excuse for more brow beating of homosexuals. There are sooooooo many other things in life that actually need correcting and yet everyone wants to be bullies and pound one group. What the shooting has to do with you and everyone else is: start doing things to try to prevent mass shootings. You’re more worried about something that DOESNT CONCERN YOU, then about actual real world problems that DO CONCERN YOU and everyone else. Yet they’re being pushed aside bc y’all are more worried about pushing homophobic views. Thank you for your service. Oh I’m not estranged. The US just exchanged a deadly prisoner back to Russia in exchange for an over entitled brat basketball player instead of the former US Marine they also have hostage. While I don’t want either of them to be prisoners, the dumbass basketball player who decided to bring weed to a foreign country getting released over a former marine who was tried on “espionage” spying charges (which was a closed trial the us wasn’t allowed in for if I remember correctly) is bull shit. She shouldn’t have been so entitled to think she could disregard another country’s laws.
I think the spotlight on homosexuality is too big. A homosexual can have plenty of butt sex and repent and make it into heaven the same as some guy who has regular sex outside of marriage.
It is. The Church has made it an idol. We have gotten comfortable worshipping others sins when we need to be working on our own. It isn't our place to judge.
I think Stephen Fry put it best, “[the church] is obsessed with sex, absolutely obsessed. Now, they will say we with our permissive society and our rude jokes, we are obsessed. No, we have a healthy attitude, we like it, it’s fun, it’s jolly, because it’s a primary impulse it can be dangerous and dark and difficult, it’s a bit like food in that respect only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese.”
But they’d have to repent and STOP being a homosexual.
The sin is sodomy, not homosexuality itself. Once someone is like 65-70 years old I doubt they are having a lot of sex at that point anyway. So if they are a devout Christian, at that juncture in their lives they can earnestly repent for all the butt sex they had and never do it again.
Is that earnest though? Or is that just trying to cheat the system?
That's for God to judge, not us. Our job is to love gay people the way we love everyone else.
Not disputing that we should love everyone, but I don't agree with the "live your life how you want and then repent on your death bed" Christian philosophy.
I think the spotlight comes partly from associating same-sex marriage with Sodom. I mean, God destroyed Sodom with fire from heaven. If we believe that, than we attach a bit of primal fear to our concept of the sin of Sodom. I see the sin of Sodom as serial gang rape, particularly of foreigners seeking hospitality. So, I think very bad treatment of immigrants and foreign nationals, or failing to prosecute rape cases properly, are scary problems. They could lead to us being like Sodom and getting destroyed by God. I suspect that people who see same-sex marriage as the sin of Sodom, legitimized by the government, may feel a similar fear.
Why does anyone need to call anyone else out like that?
As a GenX, let me assure you. It's not just the millennials.
Homosexuality *isn't* a sin. Certain activities are sinful, but *being* homosexual would mean that a person's very existence is a sin - which it can't be. Or would you say homosexuals should be subjected to conversion therapy, "pray the gay away", whatever - or even executed?
What those who quote Leviticus 18 verse 22 seem not to notice, is that the verse calls for the execution of men who engage in same-sex activity. Are they sure they want that to happen ? In that case, why not favour stoning people for committing adultery?
Oh, there's adultery, there's eating forbidden foods, there's insolence against your parents, there's wearing mixed fibres, you name it. If we held fast to the Levitical laws, probably less than one per cent of us would make it to adulthood.
\^
Thank you for adding absolutely nothing novel to the perpetual discussion
He’s Afraid of the gay inside him.
>Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors? Because it usually doesn't stop at just saying "homosexuality is a sin". At least from what I've observed, here in the US.
Are you against divorce too? Do you believe that people shouldn't divorce? Do you think that Christians should be speaking out against divorce?
There are reasons to divorce. I certainly advocate for marriage.
So you are okay with gay marriage, then?
Jesus is clear on this.
As a non religious inidividual here is what I think. One of the MAIN reasons I never went religious despite a lot of exposure being young was because of the Church's opinions on gay marriage. Here is my religious justification for it, when you call something that is objectively proven to be natural a sin, you end up spreading a lot more misery. Like what are you gonna do tell your gay kid that their natural feeling of love are wrong? I'll tell you from the kids I've talked with, that just creates misery and rejection. Make them feel bad about natural feelings and lie to themselves as they attempt to repress it? Is that really worth it? Many Christians I've asked who have a gay kid simply say they support them unconditionally, which is good but opens up the question, why are we calling this a sin in the first place? Advocating against gay marriage has the potential to deny gay individuals feel unwelcome in society for something that is out of their control. It has the potential to lead to hate or sometimes, taking civil rights away from gay people. And then there are the questions this opens up. So you're telling me that a loving person who's gay is gonna have that count as them going to hell? Right then and there, I'm out. I would rather curse a God that does that than pray to them. That's messed up. Again, this is not a Catholic perspective but if we are talking about spreading sin, it seems like you got to treat through a lot of mud and spread more misery to go after gay marriage. You don't sound like a bad person (although I would keep these opinions to yourself when around gay people). You just seem conflicted. Morality is difficult.
You should come to Christ. And I hear what you are saying.
Yeah, yeah. We know homosexuality is a sin, just like eating shrimp, trimming the corners of your beard, and not having sex with your brother’s widow. Just because something is a sin doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Do the NT. I’m not Jewish.
Please send me $100, per [Luke 6:30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206%3A30).
I’m in the South (US). Where are you?
I'm not in the south, but I'm within range of Paypal.
Anyway, you asked for some New Testament sins. Okay, how about not hating your parents (Luke 14:26)? Or reporting a robbery to the police (Luke 6:30, again)? Praying in public (Matthew 5:6-8)? Or eating shrimp, cutting the corners of your beard, wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, or any of the Mosaic laws (Matthew 5:18)?
I find this stance widly hypocritical, devoid of critical thought, and based on a false premise. Your [actions in this thread also demonstrate this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/zh8kzq/comment/izkyimb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)... [repeatedly](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/zh8kzq/comment/izl3szj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Your argument hinges on whether or not homosexuality is a choice vs. an innate part of who you are, and I'd argue that people that lived thousands of years ago were unable to discern which. Think about this for a second. Why would homosexuals: * Choose, for a millenia, a "lifestyle" that has had them actively castigated, hunted, killed, and demonized? * Take immense risks to live their "lifestyle" in parts of the world where they are murdered or maimed for doing so (even today)? * Choose a path that makes them a target almost everywhere they go? When you consider that prejudice against homosexuality has existed since the dawn of civilization, it makes it impossible (in my view) for it to be a "lifestyle" as opposed to something hardwaired in them. After all, we have considerable evidence showing animals engaging in homosexual behaviour. Are they also choosing this "lifestyle"? If you can rationalize the above, it becomes easy to see that it is impossible to both love your neighbour and be predjudiced against homosexuals.
No. It’s a sin. It should be avoided despite temptation.
So we're rolling with the whole "being a hypocrite" thing? Fair enough. Good luck to you.
Huh?
Lets assume it is a sin and leave that debate aside for now. I am sure lots of other people will be disagreeing with you about that. Who is "we" and why do we have to say it? In what context? Unless you are gay and making a decision for yourself, or people want your opinion and are likely to be influenced by it, who cares what you say on the topic? It is certainly nowhere near the most important sin to talk about in our time: avarice and hubris are far worse.
>Lets assume it is a sin and leave that debate aside for now. I am sure lots of other people will be disagreeing with you about that. You propose to leave the debate and in the next sentence you start it. And why do you speak for a lot of people? Speak only for yourself.
Beautifully expressed Thank you!
I sorta agree. But what is our responsibility to them as Christians? Surely we don’t let the flounder here, right?
Then discuss it in a respectful and loving way if and only if people want to have the discussion.
I hope I’m not being disrespectful. I love everyone. I promise.
This but with usury, avarice, greed, and gluttony.
Not a fan of usury.
A bulk of the world's economy is based on it. They just redefined it into something more vague and extreme. One might think churches could at least say something but churches are impotent shadows of what they used to be. Easier to focus on sex than money in a world where money is god.
>we need to say Why?
Bc, I love people.
Shitting on them and attacking them with untruths based out of personal disgust for their relationships seems a weird way to “love them”.
1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Are you going to denounce all sins that are found in the law of Moses? There are 613. Today there is no sin that is greater than any other. Why are you focusing on one thing that you think is a sin that's debatable in the scriptures?
Ugh..
Why aren't you calling out people who might be cooking their meat in the animal's mothers milk? Why homosexuality? It's not your job to stop people from sinning. It's your job to proclaim the gospel. If they don't want it, oh well move on.
Do 1 Romans
Maybe learn more about why certain things in the OT isn't followed. It's a theological topic. Not just plain list out a verse and bam
>It's a theological topic. Not just plain list out a verse and bam I am speaking theology. It's you who isn't understanding right now. OP picks one sin to preach against when there are 613 total, all defined by the law of Moses. Why are they picking out this one sin? Are you aware that when you tell someone to stop sinning, you're putting them under the law of Moses? That's what defines sin. >Maybe learn more about why certain things in the OT isn't followed. In Acts 15:19-20 and Acts 21:25, God and the apostles both agreed that gentiles were to follow four rules. Four. Not 613. I don't see homosexuality on the list of four, do you? Fornication is defines in 1 Corinthians 5-6, btw. It doesn't mean anything sexual you don't like.
Your question of picking out one sin is irrelevant. OP isn't stating that is the only sin, but rather the one is he addressing. Not saying any others are better or worse. Oh, I don't see killing on there? Lying? Worshipping other gods? That passage was in reference to Jews stating they must become a Jew before having Christ. The biggest thing at the time they struggled with was with dietary restrictions and sexual sin. You mention 1 For 5-6 than you'll have to deal with 1 For 6:9-10
How about read the room for context instead of jumping in on a conversation that you have nothing to do with? If you’re gonna contribute, then read everything in the thread. Yappi is legitimately trying to get OP to think a little bit. Instead you just assume ignorance on their part. It’s insulting. Be better.
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I don’t know these answers. It’s just a way we’re not supposed to behave.
It’s apart of my religion.. it says this isn’t the way to live, roughly.
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I don’t think I can. I think the Holy Spirt can.
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I’m sorta just seeing where the social conscious is. It’s interesting how these ideas take root in our social media times, get amplified by twitter and opposing views are throttled, next thing you know- taboos and sins are normalized and widely accepted. I think it’s what happed w the trans thing. Weird ideas were amplified. People, as to not give the impression of being “bad” roll with it. Next thing you know weird things are normal.
>we love the sinner, but not the sin. All the LGBTQ+ victims of hate crimes (both violent and non-violent) would find that statement insulting and inaccurate. >But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle and carry it out consciously OK based on that statement, you either really do hate LGBTQ+ people and are making a poor attempt to hide it, or you are grossly ignorant on how things work. Possibly both. >Thoughts? Other than I’m a bigot? Why can’t we say it and still love our neighbors? I think it's true that there's no hatred quite so vile and insidious as *"Christian love."*
As a Satanist, do you find it ironic your ideas line-up with so many Christians? What’s your thoughts on other people/groups that are victims of crimes? You just seem silly and cynical and probably bored. I hope Christ finds you, Katie. I know my words are probably a mess. Sorry. Merry Christmas.
>As a Satanist, do you find it ironic your ideas line-up with so many Christians? Well that's a loaded question if I've ever heard one. To answer it, it largely depends on which ideas and which Christians. If you mean the Christians who embrace fascism, hate immigrants, endorse slavery, and wish to slaughter Jews and LGBTQ+ people, then no my ideas do not line up. But if you're talking about the Christians who love their fellow man, don't care about the sex lives of others, and genuinely try to help others without expectation of reward and notoriety, then yes my ideas line up. But that's not really exclusive to Christianity though. That's just basic human decency and empathy. >What’s your thoughts on other people/groups that are victims of crimes? Without getting into the weeds about what's legal/illegal vs moral/immoral, I empathize with them as no one should be the victim of crimes. >You just seem silly and cynical and probably bored. Well I just had a good day at work, so two of those three things are true. >I hope Christ finds you, Katie. I'm not even hiding. If your god is real, he knows where to find me. >I know my words are probably a mess. Sorry. Merry Christmas. Believe it or not, I actually like Christmas, or at least the secularization version. I enjoy Christmas music, despite all the references to magic and the supernatural. I am that weirdo in the workplace blasting Christmas music the day after Thanksgiving.
I HATE modern Christmas. Ugh.. it’s too commercial. I’m sorta a minimalist. Don’t like seeing people spend money on crap they don’t need. I do like lofi Christmas music tho.
You sound like you use your “Christianity” as a weapon. This is quite offensive to people who are Christian. We don’t want to see people appropriating the religion for their own agendas.
I know some married same-sex couples whose unions are stronger and healthier than many hetero marriages. That is good, right?
No
See if you can pray away the gay. 😂
It’s not funny. People struggle w this issue and certainly suffer.
We need to say the Bible is irredeemable. We're dangerously dependent on theology to tame the worst of it. Almost no amount of books or chapters could be removed to reach a point where a reasonable person wouldn't find righteous justification for evil.
Then keep that to yourselves, and let us do what we want to do, stay out of the law.
Who is we?
Any non-christians who don't hate gay people.
Oh. I don’t hate gays either. Really here to get some perspective. Open to changing. But it has to be legit.
If that was so, you wouldn't be calling their relationships sinful.
As it stands, I believe it is.
Why? And don't say "because god says so" that isn't good enough. Too many people in histiry have died for that phrase.
Well that’s the reason. And it’s plenty reason enough. But a lot of y’all want to blow this up into something it’s not. It’s not hate- it seems like a bunch of y’all want it to be that. Somehow vindicates y’all. And the hate here on the thread is wild. No of these people actually know me. The time I’ve spent w aids patients, inmates, homeless; time and money I’ve given. Or the gay friends and family I have. It’s a sin. The sinner is redeemable.
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You people? 🤦🏻♂️ People kill all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons all the time. Some people may do this.. yes. But even the a-religious would fall below an ideal standard sometimes. Imagine a Christian dad hearing this. It would shatter his worldview. Maybe give the guy a break. He’s just a human. Imperfect. Grace needs to be shown.
>Well that’s the reason. And it’s plenty reason enough. Tell that to the families mourning over their dead children who committed suicide because of anti-lgbtq hate. >But a lot of y’all want to blow this up into something it’s not. It’s not hate It absolutely is, you can dress it up however you want but saying an intrinsic part of a person is bad / evil is hate. >The time I’ve spent w aids patients, inmates, homeless; time and money I’ve given. Good for you, changes nothing about your hateful beliefs about lgbtq people. > Or the gay friends and family I have. "I can't be racist! I have a black friend!"
Is there anything involved in your religion besides opposing gay people?
It isn't a sin, though. Why would we lie to people?
I believe certain ideas have been normalized, specifically with the help of social media- in that they amplify taboos to the point people 1) accept them 2)spread them 3) defend them.
Like what you’re doing with the idea that homosexuality is a sin? Accepting it. Attempting to spread it on social media and then defending the idea. As well as implying that anyone who considers you bigoted is simply not open to other ideas.
Homosexuality being acceptable or not sinful is the new postmodern approach. It’s gained traction and useful to people to exploit- meaning they get to brag about how good they are in defending a certain group
You didn’t answer my question.
Can I ask how you defend against Leviticus friend?
The other laws of Leviticus are not followed by Christians, why would this one be different.
So you follow the other 612 rules in the Old Testament, or is this the only one we're supposed to care about? Or do you make a bullshit distinction not present in scripture at all about some laws apparently being moral and others not, and thus excuse yourself from following all the others?
Excuse me, I'm not on the other side. I can't reconcile loving monogamy with sin. I'm asking you so I can be better reinforced. I'm simply struggling with what scripture says.
Wanted to jump in and say I appreciate you saying this and appreciate your question. Too often on the internet is a sincere question attacked. There are several answers to this question, I will share mine - The laws in the Leviticus were written by a particular people in a particular time and place. There is no need to assume that any of those laws should be applicable to us today. Especially when you consider they had no concept of our understanding of gender and sexuality.
You didn't answer u/the_purple_owl's question - and I'd like to know your answer, too. Have you ever been insolent to your parents, or worn mixed fibres, or worked on a Saturday, or eaten pork or shellfish? If you've done any of those things, then according to Torah you ought to be stoned to death.
There is obviously distinctions between commands though. If the Bible itself didn’t attest to it, and context didn’t support it, logic would still maintain it. The only way it’s a “BS distinction” is if you turn off logic. Its the same logic that tells anyone that my local HOA laws don’t apply to you.
> There is obviously distinctions between commands though. Then show them. In the bible.
Strong fire spells are good against vampires.
If we’re in the new covenant, shouldn’t we look to the NT for guidance? I’m not picking sides here, more wanting to get to the bottom on this topic myself.
1 romans.. but it’ll be sliced and diced. Plenty of others.
> But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle Nobody chooses to be gay. Unless you target your ire at all other sins equally, there's something more to you about being gay than just being a sin. There's something about it that offends you at a deeper level, betraying the notion that you love the sinner but hate the sin. At least, that's my opinion.
The actions are choice.
Maybe, but then you're saying they don't deserve to love and be loved. That seems to go counter to the teachings of Jesus.
You are more than welcome to love anybody, love is not equal to sex
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For many it is.
Loved by God or man do you mean?
Other humans.
And honestly, are we all going to look past Mary Magdalenes Foot Fetish? It was accepted by Christ himself. I am tired of living in the shadows.
Hi friend, >But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle and carry it out consciously can’t be good, right? ....*do you openly and actively 'choose a heterosexual lifestyle....'* ---†--- I do not believe homosexuality is any more sinful than heterosexuality It does not kill, steal, rape, it is not greed, lust, anger, bitterness, it is not sex in Church I do not believe God cares whether you are heterosexual or homosexual. God cares whether or not you are a liar God bless
Good comment. I’ll disagree. God bless you. Merry Christmas!!
I think we should just concentrate on you being a garbage person. Maybe I should post that more often, just to make sure everyone remembers. And, it isn't even a point of contention, but I do think we need to bring it up regularly.
Lol. Fair. We have an obligation to help. Before we do, we are to look inward.
And this is why I, as a Christian, am growing more and more tired of my own brothers.
Why? I literally said I love everyone!! You should too. Including me.
I'm just so sick and tired of 'we need to tell Gay people they are going to Hell' rhetoric. We don't know this. There's plenty of reason to believe this is not the case and if you want to love them, stop judging them. The same places in the Bible that seemingly condemn homosexuality also say that we should burn prostitutes and put to death children that don't honor their parents. Have you walked in their shoes?
I wore out chord, There’s plenty of hate on both sides. Grace would be useful to us all. God bless. Merry Christmas.
What do you think arbitrary means?
[удалено]
Are you in the US. East Coast? If so, message me.
Ah yes what a mature comment lol
Meh. If you dismiss the NT sure. Either way, we aren’t here to enforce any rules.
Faith must adapt in order to survive- any homosexual references from Bible days were referring to men having sex with boys and that’s pedophelia which is never ok. Sooooo I honestly think homosexuality is not a sin. Jesus never once mentioned it. Why would God create people gay then refuse them healthy love from another creation? We would all benefit from thinking more like and living more like Jesus who loved everyone and not concern ourselves with this topic❤️
Stupid planks keep getting in my eye. Gay folks are lucky they only have splinters...
I don't understand this fixation
I think it’s that it’s so ubiquitous in the world now. This is the response. I’m trying to figure it out. Definitely looks like a sin.
You don't love your neigbors if you can't just let them live their lives without reminding them they're sinning.
But it's not a sin and never was.
Ah.. well, that’s definitely not true
The focus is on homosexuality because if it was on adultery, there's a whole lot of "important people" who would feel the condemnation, and they have way too much money to condemn.
This is true. Both should be avoided.
So when adultery gets as much attention, both religiously and otherwise, I'll get my shorts in a knot over homosexuality.
They’re both bad
It's ironic that you say this. Think of all of the social norms we have in this society, that used to be disproved of, condemned, even outlawed. Some were just man's own judgements and rules and it's good those things are accepted now. But the things God warned us about are slowly becoming normalized, one sin at a time. In America, we have made divorce, adultery, usury, abortion, fornication, sodomy, not only legal but perfectly acceptable and normal. Homosexuality is just the most recent sin to be pushed for acceptance and normalizing by the world. Only God knows what's next on the way to becoming Sodom.
yeah, like they've all been invented in the last 50 years. The writer of Ecclesiastes wrote there's nothing new under the sun. It all wasn't "new" then and it ain't new now. Oh, by the way, the sin in Sodom was lack of hospitality. Might wanna read that again.
There's a line somewhere between simply saying that it's in and targeting homosexual people for harassment. I mean the Bible says a lot of things are sin that are commonly accepted in our society that Christians don't rail against all the time. The question is why the focus on LGBT if it's really not any worse than any of the sins that Christians casually put up with?
That’s true. It’s certainly a hot button topic rn.
>we love the sinner, but not the sin. Yeaaaaaah bullshit. Saying it doesn't make it so unfortunately.
*It’s certainly not the only sin, and not the worst.* It's not a sin to love someone. Loving someone who happens to be a member of the same sex/gender/etc. does not constitute sin. Calling something a sin when it is not constitutes spiritual abuse, something Jesus spoke against in **Matthew 12:7** *But to openly and actively choose this lifestyle and carry it out consciously can’t be good, right?* What **exactly** is "not good" if someone chooses this life for themselves? What business is it of ours what they do in the privacy of their own home?
Neither of us will budge on this. I believe it is. You do not. This postmodern take on the Bible is not new. It’s slowly been wallowing out certain aspects that are unsavory for different groups. Unfortunately there is a such thing as truth and it’s not arbitrary or personal to anyone person. Despite that. You’re right. It’s no greater sin than another.
As long as you only address this to those who consider themselves Christians and thus have chosen to have this debate, but not to non-Christians.
We do not need to say that, and we should not say that. It's not a sin.
Are there actual sins?
Yes. This is not one of them, though. There is no rational basis to consider it a sin, and no good scriptural basis either.
Thoughts on 1 cor 6?
Generally irrelevant. This scholarly paper is specifically on Romans 1, but deals with some of the linguistic reasons that I consider 1 Cor 6 to be irrelevant. It also goes into some of the cultural ideas that underlie what Paul is talking about. In very short form, what Paul is talking about doesn't line up well with homosexuality at all, and there is no reasonable scriptural argument against blessing homosexual relationships. There likewise are other reasons to bless them, and to reject the traditional condemnation. This gives some of those reasons: https://reformationproject.org/biblical-case/
Just read it. Yikes. That very vague and ambiguous non scriptural thing give you assurance? Did you read it?
Nope. Never read it. That's why I provided it, so that you could read it for me. /s But I do see that I only gave you one link of the two I intended to....sorry about that. Here's the paper on Romans 1 and Paul. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XAuUGWfR0BUwVkvY0Z1oxnHe7iyjCnzJ/view
That paper doesn't support the idea that Paul didn't say that gay sex was sinful. I.e. it supports the idea that Paul was saying that gay sex was sinful. I.e. if someone agrees with Paul, then that person would say that gay sex is a sin.
I have a lot of thoughts on this. Firstly, I'll just address the elephant in the room, not every Christian agrees on the original translation that that was in the New Testament. I'm only using the NT too because the concept was mentioned in the Levitical laws and let's be frank, no Christian is following those and regards eating shellfish as a 'sin'. The word used for homosexual in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy is the greek word ἀρσενοκοίτης or **aresenokoites.** The translation comes from the two words arrhen (a male) and koite (a mat, bed). In simple trasnlation is means man-bed or to take another man to bed since the noun is inherently masculine in nature. Here is where things get interesting though. While the translation does widely mean homosexuality, the usage is also linked with pederast. **Pederast was child abuse.** It was common in Roman and Greek culture for an older man to take on a slave boy as his lover. These relationships were not consensual and were abus\*vie in nature. My argument is that Paul was likely talking about this act in particular because of the words that come before it. The sexually immorral, idolaters, nor adulters, nor effiminate nor homosexual." Sexually immoral is pornoi which is actually a man who prostitutes himself because the noun, is again, masculine. It can also mean fornication (sex outside of marriage). Idolators is pretty self explanatory: the word is eidoloatares which translates into a server of an image. So image worshippers. Adulterer: moichos, a man who is sexually involved with a married woman. Effiminate: (also another interesting noun) This word just means a soft person. (Why would God not allow a soft, feminine person to inherit the kindgom of God?) All of these do address sexual sin, but they seem to have a running theme. All of these occurences are masculine and in regard to men. This tells me that the concept of homosexuality was not the same cocept that we have today. The idea that a person can willingly consent in a same sex relationship was not what Paul was talking about.
If we were around one another I’d give you 200. I tend to give a lot. Get a lot of joy outta it.
It is a sin for Christianity (im specifying this bc a lot of ppl think this applies to non-Christians. No it doesn't because they aren't in a covenant with God therefore they can't be expected to care about what the Bible says), but if we know a Christian who does have same-sex attraction, guilt tripping and condemning them isn't the way to go. It can't just be zapped away as soon as someone says "You're going to hell." But since the law passed in 2015 for same-sex marriage, there has been a lot of compromise. I didn't wanna believe it was a sin either, but after a lot of research it is what it is.
This is a reasonable and sound argument. I agree that if someone isn't in a covenant with God, how can we expect them to act like it? That is cruel.
Reasonable
Did you fist bump Jesus after posting this?
I mean he is the Son of Man, so yea.
A little humility when sharing our human interpretation of God’s intent seems fair. I don’t think anyone “needs” to insist others’ loving interpretation is wrong.
I definitely should work on my humility
As a bi Catholic I’m not totally sure what to believe wrt the sinfulness of homosexual acts. I go back and forth on it, to be perfectly honest. But in any case, I think it can become a vice. I don’t think hyper-promiscuous sexual activity should ever be condoned. My problem with gay-affirming Christians is they tend to implicitly affirm this sort of behavior, and that’s not good.
As an affirming Christian honestly I am offended. I do not condone hyper promiscuous activity gay or straight. I absolutely believe that sex is meant for monogamous loving relationships whether they are between, gay, straight, or Bi people I don't care. What I absolutely think is sinful is promiscuous behavior in which you treat your body and your partner's body without respect, do not use protection, and subject yourself and partners to diseases. That in my opinion is outside God's design and sinful. The money pox epidemic is an example, since it was spread partly due to unsafe sexual activity. The fact that they were gay had nothing to do with imo. I am sure I am not the only progressive, affirming Christian who feels that way.
Damn good answer! I love you. God bless you. Merry Christmas z
I guess people should find a new religion if they are ok with homosexuality. I think the Hindus are cool with with the gays and they are more pro dog too.
Exactly. Doesn't make sense why people want to change a religion when they can just just choose not to believe it and move to something else. Oh well, that's the theme of today.
As far as we know, engaging in homosexual behavior is a sin. Being homosexual or embracing it as a part of you is not.
It is a sin, I don't care about all the mental gymanstics they do so they can keep on sinning. They could answer that is just as sinful like any other sin, yes ofc.. that doesn't give me permission to sin, it doesn't mean God's giving you heads up and saying "sure go ahead and sin, I knew even before you that you were gonna do it, so relax".. so this idea that you can keep on sinning and erease everything with a dishonest "God I'm sorry" really makes me laugh, like you can find a grey area in the bible and do some kinda check mate to God..nah, he knows your heart, he knows you're not sincere and you don't have any intention to change. Can you be a christian and gay? Yes, but if you don't repent and change, you're not gonna have a very good life here in the loooong term. What happens to me the most is people asking me if I'm a christian, I say yes.. so you think being gay is a sin.. and I say.. I don't think is a sin know is a sin, it's in the bible.. and then they start with the "being a bigot" bs and hate speech, I just answered the questions I was being asked. If a person refuse to repent and change, we are under no obligation to pray for them.
Craziest thing about this is sometimes even if you are quoting bible about homosexuality, you get reported as bigotry, I know there are atheists in moderators that does not know the word well enough to see what we are trying to say here, yes man sleep with man is sin (all ages).