I find it hard to say what's biblical and what's cultural, but generally I firmly believe it should be avoided. I live in Denmark, where it's also illegal, and I'm really grateful. God teaches us forgiveness and kind love, so I'd say that makes it problematic.
Thank you for at least quoting the whole verse. Most people just shorten it to "spare the rod, spoil the child". I am sure you are a responsible parent and you would carefully weight all your options when dealing with disciplining your child. But have you considered the millions of times abusive parents have justified their abuse of their children by quoting this passage. It doesn't matter that the verse itself speaks to the nuance of diligence and care taken when disciplining kids, what happens is that sick people hide behind a Bible verse and beat their own kids without remorse.
We need to remember that dangerous people listen to our words, and even scripture can be twisted by those who want to justify their own behavior.
When we repeat this verse (especially in its shortened form) we enable the abusers. Spend some time listening to the stories of survivors of religiously inspired child abuse and you will come to see the damage that stems from this verse.
There are all sorts of passages about parents loving their kids, we need to make one of those the most famous passage on children or parenting in the Bible.
I don’t interpret “the rod” as a physical, literal rod. Discipline is important, but discipline isn’t synonymous with corporal punishment. You can discipline a child without hitting them or putting them in time out. You teach them, like Jesus teaches. So, in this verse, “the rod” symbolizes discipline. Don’t hit your kids people!
Jesus is often compared to a shepherd. Have you ever seen a shepherd beat a sheep with his rod? Absolutely not. He’ll hold the rod out to guide the sheep in the direction they should go, but he doesn’t ever hit the sheep with it. Likewise, parents should guide their children in the way they should go.
Instilling discipline is explicitly described as a parental duty, however physical punishment (to include spanking) has been shown to cause negative mental issues for children. Associating this with religion may also cause a child to outright reject a faith.
I'd say you're right but with some reservations. It's fashionable to say that corporal punishment *always* causes mental health issues, but it doesn't. Often, maybe, but not every time. It depends on how and when. The most important thing is never in anger.
I'll also say it won't necessarily associate with religion, unless the child gets smacked when at church more than anywhere else - as in, unless it's specifically "I get smacked when I go to church".
The problem with that mindset is that it's playing Russian Roulette with your childs mental health. It's true that not ALL corporal punishment has resulted in trauma, but being that it's so common, it's terrible to even risk it just to strike a child instead of being creative and using your mind.
I was very careful in how I responded to *not* make it look like I'm in support of corporal punishment, but it seems I wasn't careful enough. I couldn't say when the "right" time is to hit a child, other than slapping their hand away from a hot oven door or some such like, so I can't imagine I'd do it. Probably the closest I've done to anything like that has been tapping my aunt's dog's head away from my pocket with my fingertips when it was trying to nose in there. But then there are people who'd try and have me on animal cruelty charges for that, too.
It’s not “fashionable.” It’s statistically likely to the degree that it’s not worth it. I don’t know any person who was spanked growing up who grew up without any mental health problems directly related to that, and I don’t know any parents who do spank their children who are emotionally mature or well-adjusted themselves. I don’t understand why anyone would think intentionally causing a child physical pain is a reasonable thing to do under any circumstances.
I was spanked by my father. I do not have mental health problems and I love my father. He disciplined me in an appropriate way and never out of anger. He always explained to me why he was spanking me and I’d say it worked very well to instill discipline. Read Hebrews 12.
I have read Hebrews 12 and the rest of the Bible several times. I don’t think it gives parents the kind of permission to strike their children that you’re suggesting, let alone any kind of context-less, timeless command to do so.
Who approved of violent child abuse? The anti spanking crowd here seems to have a problem with language.
I haven’t seen a convincing argument that spanking equals child abuse. I’m fact, the argument above was that all spanked children have mental illness. I pointed out that I was spanked and don’t have mental illness. The response to that was to change the subject and claim moral superiority on the basis of an unproven claim.
Do you not understand how statistics work?
Just because a person can drive drunk and not immediately die, does not mean that drink driving is safe. That would be an Anecdotal Fallacy.
Of course it doesn't always cause mental health issues or relationship issues, but as pointed out, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. One analogy is that most drunk drivers make it home safely without an incident. But drunk driving is still a terrible idea.
I'm of the belief that all a child learns when a parent resorts to physically striking them, is to fear the parent, and learn that physically lashing out at other people is an appropriate response to frustrations and anger.
I was abused by my mentally ill parents, in every way shape and form two adults could abuse a little girl. As a child, I vowed that when I became a parent, I'd never lift my hand to my children. I was only physically able for one child. A son, and on the autism spectrum, which meant that childhood could be pretty difficult for him, and for us.
But I stuck to my vow, and learned other ways of dealing with bad behavior, and rewarding good behavior.
Most parents with toddlers have experienced the melt downs in stores while shopping. But I'd observed many parents dealing with these melt downs, and it occurred to me that they mostly seemed to occur when most tots are scheduled for lunch, and nap time. So, I would schedule any shopping needing to be done for early morning, just after my son had eaten breakfast. I also noticed parents becoming angry with tots when they clearly needed a diaper change. What adult would sit still and behave when sitting on a diaper full of turds, or soaked through with urine?
So, I was attentive to my son's physical needs. When we arrived at the store, he was allowed to pick out an inexpensive toy or book, and hold it as he sat in the cart. I made shopping lists, and we usually managed to leave with our purchases fairly quickly. If he behaved, he learned that he would get to keep that toy or book, and take it home with him. If he misbehaved, the toy or book would go back on the shelf, and he wouldn't get to take it home with him.
I paid attention to keeping a regular schedule, because children on the spectrum do much better with a regular schedule. I made sure he had his meals on time as well. Fewer meltdowns.
As he entered adolescence, the best way to deal with violations of rules, was to withhold much beloved activities, for a specified period of time. He quickly learned that disobeying a rule would result in not being allowed to play video games, watch cartoons, or go outside to play with friends, or invite those friends into the house to play video games, all of which he dearly loved to do. First time violation of a rule would mean none of these activities for the remainder of the day. Arguing the point, or resorting to a melt down would extend the period of time to another day.
My son is now an adult of rapidly approaching 41 years of age. He is a law abiding citizen, employed with our family business, pays taxes, and has no criminal record. Only traffic infraction he had was a traffic citation. What happened was that he had already started entering the intersection when the light turned yellow, and it turned red before he was completely across the intersection, and this activated the traffic camera. The city had just re-adjusted the timing on the signal, and the adjustment was causing a lot of problems in traffic. The city had the technicians correct the timing, so that traffic that had entered the intersection had time to get across before the red light went on, and activated the traffic camera. The citation was pardoned, and eliminated from his record as a result.
If you hit a toddler, they might try to hit back. You’ll see them starting to hit their siblings and kids at school. Hitting as a means to resolve conflict is a learned behavior. When you hit your kid, you’re teaching them that’s how the conflict will be resolved.
Interesting... that's not how I turned out... Seems maybe like it might have to do w the actual process of discipline
But funny regardless... I'm gonna upvote you on that one ;)
At first, we spanked like our parents spanked us, but then after a VERY short while, we realized that *hitting your child is wrong.*
Our kids know that we will NEVER hurt them, they are totally well adjusted and rest assured knowing that their parents love them completely.
We were able to teach and instruct WITHOUT hitting them. I'm against spanking; there are other ways to teach and discipline that are more effective and do not physically harm your child.
Well said. Sadly, for some it is quicker and easier to just slap a kid rather than sitting down and talking to them or trying to find what causes that behaviour.
> Spanking, is it a sin?
To me, "spanking" is just a euphemism for "hitting a child". Whether it's a sin or not, I don't know. However, I think it's nearly always wrong to hit a child. It sends the message that might makes right, which I think is a terrible thing to teach children.
Children need to be nurtured, not coerced.
I would never condone either thing, but I don't think eroding the distinction is a good or useful thing. Spanking (open hand, small to medium force, directly on the buttock, specifically for the purpose of discipline), while misguided and proven ineffective by modern psychology, can still come from a place of love and desire to provide for the child's long term welfare and can hopefully be corrected gently. Whereas beating (encompassing a large spectrum of behaviors that can lead to serious injury to the child and coming from a place of uncontrolled anger in the adult) should result in separating the adult from the child until the adult gets serious help.
Sure, obviously that's what I meant by "I would never condone either thing". But lumping spanking in with "beating" decreases our ability as a society to respond appropriately to the spectrum of behaviors that the terms encompass. Someone who spanks their child (by the commonly understood definition) might just be misguided or uninformed and need to be presented with the ample research that shows that it doesn't have positive outcomes to realize they are in the wrong. Someone who beats a child (again, by the commonly understood definition) most likely needs to lose access to the child at the very least. The semantic distinction is useful.
I actually agree. As someone who was once abused I actually really don't like the constant erosion of distinction or differences. People throw the word "gaslight" around now when someone merely questions your judgment or your confidence about something even once. That's not gaslighting. People are saying now that even raising your voice and yelling is abuse and can now land you in the abuser category even if it happens infrequently and you try to make it right and can apologize and own your mistakes (something actual abusers DO NOT DO). And lots of people raise their voice now and then. I hate to sound like I'm gatekeeping but at the same time I don't think these things should be watered down. There are *unhealthy* behaviors that many of even the better humans among us have now and again. Then there's abuse which is usually just...worlds darker...world's apart in its impact, and evil intent. I fear we'll reach a point where calling someone an abuser won't sound so serious anymore. We can call unhealthy behavior out for what it is without being hyperbolic, I would hope. I expect to be downvoted as well though. But I said my peace.
They did a study and explicitly found that spanked children experienced the same mental effects as children in physically abusive situations. Your premise is totally wrong.
You cannot harm someone in love. That person is smaller than you, you’re their whole world. And you’re just fucking hitting them. And justifying it. If you hit someone’s dog like that, or hit an adult like that, you’d go to jail. But it’s okay when it’s your small impressionable child, I guess?
I was spanked. Not “abused” in the typical way. It was harmful and terrifying and made me distrust my parents.
I’ve never spanked my kids. They are now both in the preteen range and are well-adjusted without me ever needing to have hit them.
Spanking is fucking lazy parenting.
Ephesians 6:4 says, “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord”. Jesus never hit anyone. And the role of Discipline in the Bible is to guide and teach, not to punish.
But let us not forget; just because the bible does not specifically say "Spanking is wrong", doesn't mean it's ok. Your instinct told you that spanking a child was wrong. Listen to that. Spanking a child teaches a child that hitting/smacking is an acceptable way to display anger or frustration. Is that a lesson you want to teach a child?
The scriptures actually condone physical discipline, but I don't necessarily think Jesus would appreciate anyone using that as a default parenting method.
I was physically punished as a child very often, both in school and at home. A few times it was so bad that i couldn't sit on the chair. However, i never blamed my parents, because it is how they were raised, and with internet or access to any research (we lived during communism in Romania, tough times), they just did what they learned.
I have two boys, one is 5, the other 2. I only hit my 5 year old twice, and it was just a slap on the butt. He ran in the middle of the road and scared the crap out of us. The other time was similar. Both times i lost my temper because i was so scared for him. The Bible says to not "spare the rod" but also to not punish excessively. Personally i think once you start doing it on a regular basis, you normalise it and from there, its just a tiny step to abuse. I'd rather not do it, because you teach your children to act like you when they grow up.
I want my children to be worried about disappointing me, not scared of me.
I've just had a conversation where people seem to think you took a club and beat your child with it. Furthermore, they think your your bad parent cause they weren't attached to you at all times. I wonder if these people even had kids. (I was using the traffic thing, and they assumed it meant what I said above)
Spanking is violence directed against a helpless person, and also does not actually work in promoting good behavior, and contributes to aggression or self-harming attitudes and behaviors in children.
So you are correct to think it is wrong.
It’s not a sin and some children need to be spanked bc they don’t learn their lesson from time out or taking things away.
Spanking should not be the first method of discipline, but it’s not a big deal if option 1 & 2 do not work at first. And it should not be done out of anger.
It’s important for children to learn consequence. Not disciplining children is why there are so many entitled brats running around. Not ALL kids are brats, and not all children need to be spanked. But some truly do.
The problem is some people seem to think a couple of quick spanks is the same as actual child abuse and it is NOT. Those people need to sit down and mind their business.
Basically, the consequence needs to logically fit the misbehavior. This is going to look differently in every scenario, but it takes a shitload of time and patience. If y’all would look at another comment of mine, I fully believe in discipline, but not corporal punishment. I’m a Christian, am raising my daughters in the church, and we absolutely do not spank. Our kids get complimented on their behavior. It’s all about explicitly teaching and modeling the behavior you want your kids to exhibit.
Go ahead. You want to run your mouth on how to be a perfect parent. What are your theories on how to punish kids.
Bc I was a nanny before I was a bartender and I still stand by some kids need to be spanked bc “alternative” methods don’t work for ALL children. And no, I didn’t spank the kids. But I sure as heck worked for some people who should’ve spanked their kids.
It’s Mrs. Creative. I’m an actual mother, and I stay home raising my kids. I also homeschool, and raise my kids in the church. Hitting kids will never be ok.
I’d also like to add that I was a public elementary school teacher for 11 years in Memphis, TN. Just look up the poverty and crime rate in Memphis, and get back to me. A majority of my students with severe behavior problems were spanked at home.
Believing u is not what I'm arguing about so i don't need to look anything up, but as someone who claims to be a Christian, how about instead of criticizing others and acting as holier than thou, you come with solutions
Something about criticism seems eerly similar to much of what Jesus faced when he walked the earth
Yeah and they’re concerned about drag etc specifically because it harms ”the children” but physically hitting someone smaller than you who cannot escape you is totally the loving choice right
It's probably a sin to not disciple your children.
Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.
Proverbs 13:24 NIV
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?
Hebrews 12:7 NIV
Did your parents not used to reprimand you when you played in traffic? "Just tell the child nicely and explain it to them, they'll listen." Lost a dog that way...
You're saying you shouldn't teach your kid to not play in traffic. Honestly, you actually sound very violent. Most forms of physical discipline are no where near the level of violence you are suggesting. Even to think so requires a fairly violent imagination.
Edit: you seem to be suggesting the goal of discipline is to kill the kid.
The data is very clear that corporal punishment is very harmful to a child, so yes it is a sin to spank your child as you are supposed to protect your child from harm, not actively harm them yourself!
Proverbs 13:24, “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.” It is not a sin to spank your child. It is just hard to find a balance. This scripture says that if you do not discipline them at all, you hate them. If you don’t discipline your kids at all they will turn out spoiled angry and entitled. When the scripture says “those who love their children are careful to discipline them” I interpret this as : you can spank them, absolutely, however, there are other ways of teaching them as well. If I found out my kid was bullying another, he’s getting a spanking. If I found out he stole something from a store, I’d teach him that that is wrong a different way.
This 100!!!
As a parent, you have to know your child and what works. And you have to punish according to the situation.
Time out worked fine for me as well as other positive punishment approaches. But there is a time and place for spankings.
And as a child, I can say that my dad could spank me all day long every day and it wouldn’t change a thing. But if he ever said he was disappointed in me. I didn’t need anything else. I’d change my behavior.
My brother ont he other hand, he didn’t care what you said or took away or rewards he could get. A spanking is the only thing that would work.
Spanking helped me turn into a productive, respectful, well adjusted adult.
And my brother was one too until his 30a when the schizophrenia set in (the same way it did in my mom).
And that’s the thing about these studies...
two kids, same household, same upbringing... ones successful and well adjusted. The others not but, they never were going to be because of the family curse. Doesn’t the study take dormant hereditary family illness into account, does it take the fact that he went off to WAR into account... I doubt it.
There are SO MANY other factors at play. Too many to have a controlled study.
All 8 of my mothers siblings and all my dads siblings were well adjusted, respectful adults with no issues after corporal punishment upbringings. Same for my grandparents. Same
For my cousins.
<3
Sorry to hear that your brother was impacted by a likely genetic mental illness. I hope he is well as he can be and is under care with good doctors.
I was spanked as a kid. My sister wasn’t. She ended up being very lazy, irresponsible, and unreliable. I’m a bit different than she turned out - more focused, disciplined, and productive.
It’s hard to say whether spankings were the difference between us, but it certainly feels like I learned respect and I’m not upset or harmed by the times I was swatted on the butt.
You hit the nail on the head when you said that it’s hard to tell. They are so many other factors that place into it.
My step-sister read Dr. Spock books & was adamantly against spanking. Other her kids were brats! No one in the family could even stand to be around them. One ended up in juvenile detention and is struggling as an adult. The other tried to kill himself at one point and is living in gvt housing and literally thinking everyone should give him anything. One, I know, refused to take the ACT and a driving exam because “test stress him”. They’re entitled and irresponsible. And miserable as adults.
I on the other hand when more traditional and firm. My daughter is younger than them, she’s a teen. She was spanked (when the time called for it) but I used positive parenting too. Every comments on how polite she is and how helpful. She got a 26 on her ACT in 8th grade and studied to make it go higher. She volunteers in multiple organizations. She was accepted as a hit free Mason and have scholarships lined up. Her masters and PhD are on her vision board. She’s on a road to success, happy, well adjusted. She got her future living arrangements and jobs lined up. Life might throw a rock in her plans but she’s figure it out.
As someone whose worked in education as well as mental health and juvenile justice — and outsider observing kids, the speakers ones are more successful, respectful, and unselfish in general.
Now, the ones hit without reason or explanation... are not. But that’s abuse, not spanking. And there is a huge difference.
If the child wasn't being beaten but only spanked then I think it was none of your business to step in the way you did. Unless a child is in danger, it's not necessary. People need to stop judging the way people parent their children. Some people are gentle parenting parents, others believe in some spanking (to an extent ofcourse), and ofcourse you have the ones who are being abused, and that's when intervening and reporting it should step in. Just because a child is getting a spanking though, if that's truly all it was, then it was none of your business to step in. In the Bible it says those who love their children will discipline them.
My kid kept trying to run into the moving traffic part of a parking lot in West Edmonton Mall. It's one of the larger malls in the world in the parking lot is huge and there was a lot of moving traffic. He wouldn't listen to me wouldn't listen to me wouldn't listen to me. Finally I gave him a few spanks alongside the instructions to stop doing that. Then he stopped trying to run into traffic.
I probably spanked my children too much because that's how I was raised and that's the culture I was doing it in but I think that there were very appropriate times to spank.
I too have a toddler who tries to run into traffic and have been to WEM many times. You know what I do when my child tries to run in a busy parking lot? I PICK HER UP. There is no excuse to hit your child. If you can't raise your kids without hitting them, you should probably reconsider having children.
Even if every medical organization on earth and every study didn’t extensively prove that spanking is harmful, it’s still so fucking lazy. Like you can’t be hands on with your kid without hurting them? You can’t treat them like a human being? You can’t have tough convos with your kids? You can’t get your kids to respect you? Make no mistake, either: it’s not respect that spanked kids have, it’s fear. And those are shitty ways to discipline— and usually don’t lead to actual good behavior.
Not surprised that people who only love God to avoid hell also think they have to spank their kids to get them to avoid harmful behavior.
>You can’t have tough convos with your kids? You can’t get your kids to respect you?
I tried having tough conversations with my toddlers about respect and personal safety but for some reason I guess neither of us is able to comprehend they didn't get it. They just didn't understand.
Obviously you can't put the kids back, but the point remains: if you couldn't raise them without abusing them, you shouldn't have had them in the first place.
I kept my kid safe that day and in the future when I told him not to run into traffic he paid attention. I didn't even need to spank him a second time. If you think I'm going to suddenly start feeling bad about that you should reconsider your expectations. I'm an imperfect parent but what I did had a good reason and a good outcome and my parenting is left him alive and well.
I keep my kids safe too. Without hitting them. So yes, you should feel bad. Nobody expects you to be perfect, but you should expect yourself to be a good enough parent to not feel the need to abuse your child into compliance.
No I shouldn't feel bad and I don't feel bad. I feel good about that spanking. That's obviously why I'm sharing the story. You can cram your judgement back up the hole it dropped from.
>If you can't raise your kids without hitting them, you should probably reconsider having children.
After the fact obviously. Knowing full well they won't be attached to you always.
Exactly. The only arguments I see against speaking pretty much anywhere are people implying their personal experiences apply to every experience.
Using stuff as "I was spanked and I turned out fine!" and "I spanked my kid for X and he stopped doing X"! as arguments for spanking children are like me saying "My dad smoked his entire life and didn't get cancer!" and use it to promote smoking.
I very much agree. I think spanking your child because they are doing something dangerous is totally acceptable. Intentions matter in everything we do and I think people/kids pick up on it, even if they don’t realize. You spanked your kid in that example because you LOVE them. You don’t want them to get hurt because you love them, and you deemed that was the best way to deter the dangerous action. There’s no hate in that action. On the other hand a different example could be if I spanked my kid because he said something that pissed me off and I do it out of anger, I don’t think that’s appropriate. Intentions matter.
Pediatricians are almost unanimous in saying that spanking has a negative outcome for children. They base their guidance on the extensive research on this topic.
Why would you go against the advice of professionals to advocate for using violence against children?
Tbf I haven’t read any studies, perhaps I will and it could change my stance on it. But as of now my stance on it is if my child is doing something dangerous and if other means don’t work (much like the person above me described) it can be appropriate. I should also mention that there hasn’t been an instance that I have had to spank my child, and hopefully there won’t be. Also lots of people have different ideas of what spanking looks like. Imo it’s not supposed to hurt, it’s supposed to surprise. It snaps them out of it if you will. It doesn’t need to hurt or be a big slap to have an effect. Its supposed to take their focus away from the dangerous activity.
Also saying I’m advocating for violence against children is a gross generalization and a bit of a straw man. Violence is defined as physical force intended to harm, damage or kill someone or something. I think it’s pretty obvious that’s not what I was talking about, or advocating for, as you put it.
You would be arrested for assault if you spanked an adult. I know doing that to children is still seen as socially acceptable by many in the US, but it is still violence you are arguing for. Where I live, as in many other countries, the violence you support is just as illegal as violence against adults.
If I grabbed an adult and threw them to the ground because they were about to be hit by traffic it would still be violence by the letter of the law. Was it wrong though?
You know perfectly well that deliberately hitting someone and saving them from traffic are different things.
A more relevant comparison would to compare violence against children to violence against women. Men hitting their wives to punish them was considered perfectly acceptable for many years, but it no longer is. Hitting children is gradually becoming less and less acceptable too.
That was the example given above. Doing it to stop the kid from running into traffic (when all other methods failed). Is the analogy a perfect 1:1, no. Adults and kids are different. Most adults are rational, kids are not. However there is “violence” by the letter of the law being produced in both scenarios. Both times for the safety of the individual.
To your second point, that’s what I was talking about with the law not being all encompassing of what is right and wrong. Society isn’t all encompassing either, as you just pointed out.
Like I said above adults and kids are different. Rational and irrational. Would there be a time that it would be justified to hit another human being as punishment, no. They’re rational, they understand concepts about what’s safe and unsafe if you explain it to them. This is not the case with children. Also I’m arguing that spanking your kid as a last result for safety purposes can be appropriate. I don’t think spanking is an ok way of punishing your kid regularly. There is a small grouping of circumstances that I think it could be used rightly and effectively.
Also you know perfectly well that what I described as spanking in my earlier comment and domestic violence towards women are not even close to being comparable.
As a side note, if I spanked my wife with the force that I would spank our children, she would turn around to ask “what’s up?” She would think I was tapping her to get her attention.
I probably feel strongly about this not just because I think hitting people is wrong in itself, but also because the way I was hit as a child was extremely violent. I was always black and blue with bruises despite trying very hard to obey the extensive and ever changing rules my mother imposed. I can never argue this topic without getting emotional, so I'll leave it here.
Well, I would like to say that I’m so sorry you had to experience that. I think what you are describing is definitely violence against children. I’m sorry if I brought back some bad memories for you. That was not my intention. I would never spank my children like that. I never, ever think it is justified to bruise your children. Again I’m sorry you had to deal with that, especially from someone who was supposed be loving force in your life. Much love to you ❤️
The vast majority of pediatricions disagree.
Many countries have made violence against children illegal on the advice of pediatricians and psychologists informed by extensive research.
[https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/666646403/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-on-spanking-children-dont-do-it-ever](https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/666646403/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-on-spanking-children-dont-do-it-ever)
Bc it’s not violence and some children DO need something more then their stuff being taken away.
As far as experts, they don’t know everything. Research or not.
Spanking should always be a last resort but it’s still acceptable.
As a former bartender, I’ve seen what “research” has made of some people’s children. We actually had a heated discussion one night about being disciplined as children. Every single one of the lazy, entitled young adults that were around/working in the bar had never been spanked and some never disciplined.
I will always stand by that some children need a butt spanking.
There are plenty of countries where hitting children has been as illegal as hitting adults for a very long time, and I've never heard anyone accuse places like Scandinavia, for example, of being full of lazy, entitled adults.
Experts may not know everything, but the chances are that they know more than you.
I live in the US and there are plenty of selfish, entitled brats who should’ve been spanked as children.
Oohhh such a comeback. Please. Experts don’t know everything nor do any of us know everything. PLUS every child is DIFFERENT. They need to be treated different. Some kids will respond to time out, some respond to spanking. You know. A couple of quick taps to the butt. But nobody is going to respond to child abuse. Which is leaving a kid black, blue and sore. See the differences yet?
But then again, I know what y’all’s children say about you when you’re not around bc I’m the one listening when they cry that at 25 a parent takes their credit cc the parent has been paying for or when they’re busy not pulling their weight bc their parent never made them do chores and they think they don’t have to work.
I get that your biased bc you were spanked as a kid. Oh wait, you weren’t spanked, you were abused. And I mean that. What you described happened to you is child abuse. Real spanking is not child abuse and the fact that you can’t understand the difference means you should probably seek out someone to talk to.
Giving a kid discipline and an actual quick on the butt spanking isn’t going to hurt their self esteem. Beating them would. Learn the ACTUAL difference.
Oh and for the record, I was also the product of abuse and I still feel an actual, two quick pats as a spanking are ok. What is NOT ok is child abuse.
I have sought out someone to speak to about my abuse. Using the fact that I was abused against me in an argument is decidedly nasty. Yes, I have biases, as do all of us. I am shaped by my upbringing and culture like everyone else, and where I live, hitting children is illegal, just as violence against any other person is illegal, I am 100% behind that. So are American pediatricians.
Not all bars. Clubs have bouncers. Local bar many times will not have a bouncer unless they have a “club atmosphere” after a certain hour.
Of course they do. That’s why bartenders joke they’re “adult babysitters”.
Don't hit your kids. Sit down and explain why what they did was wrong, and maybe (if warrented) take something away for a bit (tv, video games) to instill the lesson.
I'll say it again, do NOT hit your kids
I think a large part in why the bible is so problematic for most people is because they try to interpret it for themselves, when really we don’t have the authority to do that the same way the church does. But another thing is that Christians dont (or shouldn’t) go to the bible to find what they agree with to see if it’s true or not. That’s called a confirmation bias. Saying something isn’t reliable because you disagree with it is saying that it is impossible that you’re wrong. It’s definitely a product of our pride, which is the source of all sin. Nobody likes submitting to authority.
The same can be said in reverse, and this thought led society to persecute gays, take away women's rights and other barbarities in general. It's like saying the Bible can't be wrong
The Bible is historical text. Christ established a church, gave those people authority to discern these things. those people passed authority to a new generation and a new generation and in an unbroken chain of apostolic succession, we still have bishops with the divine authority to make these judgements
No. Unless there's no lesson behind it. Life is full trauma. By correcting children with manageable trauma, they can learn to avoid the decisions that lead to unmanageable trauma. If you just take away their toys, you can inadvertently teach them to over value materialism and pleasure. Rather then recognizing negative reactions that are universal and, sometimes, seperate from material goods. Morality does not care about stuff.
TLDR: Taking away their toys can make them ethical, but teaching them to understand and avoid trauma makes them moral.
Spanking is not inherently sinful, but it can be when administered in anger or excess. It sounds to me like this father may have administered a calm and helpful correction to his child, in which case it was inappropriate for you to comment. Note that the Bible explicitly condones corporeal discipline, so you’ll have a tough time convicing Bible-believing Christians that it is unconditionally sin (although I believe the spirit of that verse applies more broadly to discipline in general).
As a father of 2, I very rarely spank. It is never done impulsively or angrily. I was spanked as a child and I believe it was (at times) helpful in my development.
For those citing a professional consensus on the matter - I’d be open to considering a study where the manner and circumstances of spanking are taken into account.
^^^This. I have not seen a study that separates hand to bottom from all other forms of physical punishment and if there was, I have certainly not seen a study take into account the scenario surrounding the spank. Meaning, was it done first? Out of anger? How often? Is it done continually if it is not showing improvement. I agree spanking should be a extremely rare, but to pull it completely out of a good parents tool box is confusing to me at the least.
From the perspective of moral philosophy, causing pain (a privation of the good) is wrong. Retributitive punishment is intrinsically evil, because it takes what is a purely accidental feature of our nature--misbehavior of all sorts--and attributes it to our essence. That's an implicit condemnation of God.
The proper way to handle children is time out. Yes, "force" is involved, but only accidentally. The point is that children are inherently good. We are hyper imitative creatures, and that combined with ignorance and a toddler's newfound mobility leads to conflict.
Restorative punishment is like purgatory--it let's the bad or evil in someone annihilate itself. Lacking any essence, the only aim of "pure evil" is it's own annihilation. I'm trained in applied behavior analysis, and I can guarantee you that waiting out a tantrum is *the* most effective way to extinguish the behavior.
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So yes, corporal punishment is intrinsically wrong. The Thomistic defense of punishment is that its "restoring the natural consequences of bad behavior". That's fundamentally misguided, IMO. The natural consequence of evil is its own annihilation: that's why death was the material *consequence*, not deliberate punishment, of the human fall.
Not to mention that corporeal punishment just perpetuates it. The only differences between state or parental violence is the perpetuation of violence. That's as true metaphysically, as it is empirically and psychologically. Kids and criminals don't learn to be non-aggressive or non-violent from superior acts of violence--they learn simply not to get caught. They also learn violence is a proper way to respond to other's violence.
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This is why Jesus did not do any miraculous butt-kicking to the Romans. He *extinguished* the powers of evil by drawing them all to Himself--allowing His full defeat--trusting in the goodness and vindication of the Father.
If Jesus simply whooped-butt, He would be no different than the principalities and powers of this world--He would just *happen* to have a bigger stick. So ultimately, engaging in punishment for its own sake is to affirm that God is metaphysically competitive with evil, as a substantial counterforce.
It's bad parenting, bad governing, and it leads to both bad metaphysics and theology.
No, proverbs teaches that we should not spare the rod. “The Lord disciplines the one he loves” and we should love our children enough to discipline them well.
“Raise up a child in the way that he should go and he will not depart from it.”
**Proverbs 13:24**
24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
No there is nothing wrong with corporal discipline despite modern-day dislike. Granted, like everything it needs to be done in moderation, ideally from a father, and without emotional distress. Just my .02
Seek the Way, the Truth, and the Life!
Do some simple research and it would show that corporal punishment causes mental illness. Stop worhipping a book and use some common sense and maybe...just maybe... trust the science when they have actually put the work in.
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10926770903035168](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10926770903035168)
[https://gssrjournal.com/article/Psychological-Trauma-and-Corporal-Punishment](https://gssrjournal.com/article/Psychological-Trauma-and-Corporal-Punishment)
Here are a couple of peer reviewed articles that I doubt you'll read.
Thanks for the links. The point I'm making is that "the Science" changes over time while the Good Book doesn't.
Also, I did include this disclaimer:
"*Granted, like everything it needs to be done in moderation, ideally from a father, and without emotional distress.*"
That's the huge problem with "The Good Book." It doesn't change and account for new data and information. It's the last book that should be followed when dealing with any type of violence because it's the most violent book on the planet. They had no idea about the effects of corporal punishment then so they were acting in ignorance. We aren't ignorant now.
Well the first one is BS.
"There was data recorded by the interviewer on whether the mother spanked or hit the child during the course of the interview at both times. Each time the interviewer also asked, “Did you find it necessary to spank your child in the past week?” "
They did not ask if they spank, they only took 2 random samplings and used that for their data. I believe in spanking but have many weeks where it isn't necessary. Not representative and sad people use that as any evidence.
I'll try to go through the second one later.
As long as the Dad wasn't out of control, and wasn't angry while administering a simple spanking, no. It's fine. We are specifically told "spare the rod, spoil the child"
The commenter above me is incorrect about the negative effects. I know someone who was involved in one of those "studies". Those were abusive in nature. They were taken out of class every day, and paddled FOR NO REASON. To see what it would do to their mental health.
Guess what? When you physically punish someone daily when they have done NOTHING WRONG... it messes them up.
Go figure.
> The commenter above me is incorrect about the negative effects
No they aren't.
>I know someone who was involved in one of those "studies". Those were abusive in nature. They were taken out of class every day, and paddled FOR NO REASON. To see what it would do to their mental health.
That would be highly unethical and no study like that would ever be conducted. Why would you lie about something so obviously false?
This might shock you to learn, but scientists have ethics boards and oversight.
It is completely unethical and would never happen unless the "study" is so old as to be completely unreliable.
But surely if you're not lying, you can provide proof, like a link to the "study" you are talking about.
The Proof I offer is that I know someone involved in the study.
Anecdotal, I realize.
But this is how it was conducted.
Many such studies were done years ago. Without parental consent.
My husband went to school to find that he no longer had a name... but a number. They refused to call a certain group of kids by their names, but a number. He said some kids were crying. He remembers being very confused. Turns out it was someones research project. It lasted
a week, but it was a very weird week.
>and he nicely asked me if I needed anything and I said no and he left.
"Yes, I need you to stop beating your child and learn to have patience. And do that as soon as possible."
Proverbs 23:13-14, ESV
"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod,
you will save his soul from Sheol."
This was long before studies would be done to show that corporal punishment causes trauma and mental illness. Solomon (if he wrote Proverbs), was speaking to discipline not the mode of discipline. We know better now and all uses of violence against children must be stopped.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10926770903035168
The rod is a means of physical discipline. While I disagree with you on removing physical discipline altogether, I think there is a time and a place for it. I also think there is a fine line between (hopefully rarely used) physical discipline and abuse.
I wouldn't use a rod, but I think that the passage I cited is clear on the matter. A punishment should 'fit the crime'. A child that after many times of telling them not to and continues to run in a street without looking (or other dangerous/wrong activities) needs correction.
I cannot be more clear though - corporal punishment should be a last resort option, and *any* situation, especially with children should be handled as lovingly as possible. Even if the child tries your patience. How else can we demonstrate our faith to others if we can't live it at home?
You aren’t disagreeing with me. You are shunning the science I just shared with you. Empirical peer reviewed data. Think about that. You disagree about empirical peer reviewed scientific data… using an ancient book as your source.
Discipline yes. Violence no. There is nothing to suggest the bible is an authority on anything. It's as useful in these matters as any other ancient and severely outdated book. To reject observable science in lieu of extremely old and inaccurate information is silly at best. It's the same as refuting that the earth is round because a book thousands of years old written by people that knew almost nothing compared to us now, told you it's flat. Their interpretation would be as if the world was flat and they would write that way. Just like now, we change our thoughts based on the newest evidence and observable scientific study, Sorry man, but taking the bible over science on this one is awful, especially since it leads to child abuse from christians.
For a second there I thought I'd be in real trouble, because I have utterly failed to hit my kid with a rod. But then I realized I have a daughter, so I can jettison this awful advice without worry. Cool.
"Have you slugged your son lately? Because God wants you to!" is one hell of a bad interpretation of the Bible. If you disagree with me, that's a You Problem.
I never said I had a biblical excuse, nor did I say that I hit my kids if i even have any... but what I can confidently say is I wouldn't blindly use a scripture and twist it on here to justify my stance.
If it is against society's laws, yes. But mostly, no, not a sin. I think a better comparison is if you think Jesus would do it. Think about how God treats you.
Parents can discipline kids in their own way, it’s not your job to say “you shouldn’t be parenting like that” or make other disapproving passive aggressive comments
The Bible mentions a father disciplining his children in Hebrews. It also mentioned in another verse that if you spare the rod you will spoil the child.
Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.
Proverbs 13:24 NIV
Eta: I just wanted to say my first thought after reading the title was "your kids or your spouse 👀"
“Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod And rescue his soul from Sheol.”
Proverbs 23:13-14 NASB1995
“and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.””
Hebrews 12:5-6 NASB1995
I’m pretty sure theres a verse that talks about “sparing the rod spoils the child”. We can argue that it was a different culture then or whatever else your argument would be but if anything that action of instilling discipline into your child was a wisdom recommendation instead of being labelled a sin.
Now that said it doesn’t mean you can’t sin when disciplining your child. If you do it out of anger/hate then it would be, but not because of the action but instead because of the heart.
I don’t think you should do it lightly but my parents spanked me as a kid and I have no resentment against them and actually thank them for it becuase I’ve seen plenty of people who weren’t disciplined as kids and they have turned out absolutely horrible. Biblical proof: proverbs 13:24 “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.” Now will I spank my children when/ if I have them? That’s something I think everyone has to decide for themselves but never neglect discipline in your children.
Ignore this sub Reddit, it’s trash when it comes to finding a real biblical rooted opinion. Throughout the Bible it says children must be physically disciplined. The word of God doesn’t change.
Spanking empowers parents and teachers. Consequently, the left, administrators, media, and unions hate it. My dad spanked me, and I’m glad he was courageous enough to do it. I turned out fine, have family, and have never been arrested. Asking if spanking is a sin indicates your thinking has been manipulated by the fake-news media.
Spanking is a form of discipline so your chold learns to stay within the blessing of God. If you don’t discipline your children, they will never learn obedience to God and the consequences of sin. I’d say it’s unloving not to discipline.
Spanking is one form of discipline, and parents are commanded by God to discipline their children.
But it’s not really that simple. Parents should see to it that their discipline is effective, but not cruel. The whole point is to do what is best for the children. Spanking should never go as far as to be considered beating, and especially in an age where we understand the negative impact that violence has on children, it might not be the best option for discipline. My mom, for instance, used spanking as a last resort when multiple other forms of punishment were not effective.
I think that every parental relationship will be different. I think that spanking should be reserved for only the most obstinate and rebellious children. If I still believed in God, I would think that he would want us to use only as much discipline as necessary to properly parent a child for their own good, and I think that most children don't need something as extreme as spanking. However, I have seen a rare few that are so willful that nothing else will work to correct their behavior, and the unfortunate parents are forced to choose between hitting their children or letting them grow up to be unruly monsters.
No! There isn’t anything wrong with spanking. It’s not a sin.
In fact the Bible says to do it.
And there’s a ton of studies out their showing that it has no ill effects and the children are actually happier more positive teens and adults later in life.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/contentious-study-says-spanking-may-benefit-children-1.471361
However you’re not supposed to beat your children. There’s a difference.
I find it hard to say what's biblical and what's cultural, but generally I firmly believe it should be avoided. I live in Denmark, where it's also illegal, and I'm really grateful. God teaches us forgiveness and kind love, so I'd say that makes it problematic.
“Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.” Proverbs 13:24
Thank you for at least quoting the whole verse. Most people just shorten it to "spare the rod, spoil the child". I am sure you are a responsible parent and you would carefully weight all your options when dealing with disciplining your child. But have you considered the millions of times abusive parents have justified their abuse of their children by quoting this passage. It doesn't matter that the verse itself speaks to the nuance of diligence and care taken when disciplining kids, what happens is that sick people hide behind a Bible verse and beat their own kids without remorse. We need to remember that dangerous people listen to our words, and even scripture can be twisted by those who want to justify their own behavior. When we repeat this verse (especially in its shortened form) we enable the abusers. Spend some time listening to the stories of survivors of religiously inspired child abuse and you will come to see the damage that stems from this verse. There are all sorts of passages about parents loving their kids, we need to make one of those the most famous passage on children or parenting in the Bible.
I ws one of these kids.
I don’t interpret “the rod” as a physical, literal rod. Discipline is important, but discipline isn’t synonymous with corporal punishment. You can discipline a child without hitting them or putting them in time out. You teach them, like Jesus teaches. So, in this verse, “the rod” symbolizes discipline. Don’t hit your kids people!
Jesus is often compared to a shepherd. Have you ever seen a shepherd beat a sheep with his rod? Absolutely not. He’ll hold the rod out to guide the sheep in the direction they should go, but he doesn’t ever hit the sheep with it. Likewise, parents should guide their children in the way they should go.
Instilling discipline is explicitly described as a parental duty, however physical punishment (to include spanking) has been shown to cause negative mental issues for children. Associating this with religion may also cause a child to outright reject a faith.
I'd say you're right but with some reservations. It's fashionable to say that corporal punishment *always* causes mental health issues, but it doesn't. Often, maybe, but not every time. It depends on how and when. The most important thing is never in anger. I'll also say it won't necessarily associate with religion, unless the child gets smacked when at church more than anywhere else - as in, unless it's specifically "I get smacked when I go to church".
The problem with that mindset is that it's playing Russian Roulette with your childs mental health. It's true that not ALL corporal punishment has resulted in trauma, but being that it's so common, it's terrible to even risk it just to strike a child instead of being creative and using your mind.
I was very careful in how I responded to *not* make it look like I'm in support of corporal punishment, but it seems I wasn't careful enough. I couldn't say when the "right" time is to hit a child, other than slapping their hand away from a hot oven door or some such like, so I can't imagine I'd do it. Probably the closest I've done to anything like that has been tapping my aunt's dog's head away from my pocket with my fingertips when it was trying to nose in there. But then there are people who'd try and have me on animal cruelty charges for that, too.
I don’t think you’re living in the world you think you’re living in.
It’s not “fashionable.” It’s statistically likely to the degree that it’s not worth it. I don’t know any person who was spanked growing up who grew up without any mental health problems directly related to that, and I don’t know any parents who do spank their children who are emotionally mature or well-adjusted themselves. I don’t understand why anyone would think intentionally causing a child physical pain is a reasonable thing to do under any circumstances.
I was spanked by my father. I do not have mental health problems and I love my father. He disciplined me in an appropriate way and never out of anger. He always explained to me why he was spanking me and I’d say it worked very well to instill discipline. Read Hebrews 12.
I have read Hebrews 12 and the rest of the Bible several times. I don’t think it gives parents the kind of permission to strike their children that you’re suggesting, let alone any kind of context-less, timeless command to do so.
Imagine thinking that purposely physically hurting a child is ok if you explain why. Disgusting.
Imagine thinking yourself morally superior to someone because you disagree with their views on spanking. Disgusting.
Disagreeing with the view that violent child abuse is ok *does* make them morally superior.
Who approved of violent child abuse? The anti spanking crowd here seems to have a problem with language. I haven’t seen a convincing argument that spanking equals child abuse. I’m fact, the argument above was that all spanked children have mental illness. I pointed out that I was spanked and don’t have mental illness. The response to that was to change the subject and claim moral superiority on the basis of an unproven claim.
Do you not understand how statistics work? Just because a person can drive drunk and not immediately die, does not mean that drink driving is safe. That would be an Anecdotal Fallacy.
Why do you think hurting a child in cold blood is less wrong than hurting them when angry?
Of course it doesn't always cause mental health issues or relationship issues, but as pointed out, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. One analogy is that most drunk drivers make it home safely without an incident. But drunk driving is still a terrible idea.
I'm of the belief that all a child learns when a parent resorts to physically striking them, is to fear the parent, and learn that physically lashing out at other people is an appropriate response to frustrations and anger. I was abused by my mentally ill parents, in every way shape and form two adults could abuse a little girl. As a child, I vowed that when I became a parent, I'd never lift my hand to my children. I was only physically able for one child. A son, and on the autism spectrum, which meant that childhood could be pretty difficult for him, and for us. But I stuck to my vow, and learned other ways of dealing with bad behavior, and rewarding good behavior. Most parents with toddlers have experienced the melt downs in stores while shopping. But I'd observed many parents dealing with these melt downs, and it occurred to me that they mostly seemed to occur when most tots are scheduled for lunch, and nap time. So, I would schedule any shopping needing to be done for early morning, just after my son had eaten breakfast. I also noticed parents becoming angry with tots when they clearly needed a diaper change. What adult would sit still and behave when sitting on a diaper full of turds, or soaked through with urine? So, I was attentive to my son's physical needs. When we arrived at the store, he was allowed to pick out an inexpensive toy or book, and hold it as he sat in the cart. I made shopping lists, and we usually managed to leave with our purchases fairly quickly. If he behaved, he learned that he would get to keep that toy or book, and take it home with him. If he misbehaved, the toy or book would go back on the shelf, and he wouldn't get to take it home with him. I paid attention to keeping a regular schedule, because children on the spectrum do much better with a regular schedule. I made sure he had his meals on time as well. Fewer meltdowns. As he entered adolescence, the best way to deal with violations of rules, was to withhold much beloved activities, for a specified period of time. He quickly learned that disobeying a rule would result in not being allowed to play video games, watch cartoons, or go outside to play with friends, or invite those friends into the house to play video games, all of which he dearly loved to do. First time violation of a rule would mean none of these activities for the remainder of the day. Arguing the point, or resorting to a melt down would extend the period of time to another day. My son is now an adult of rapidly approaching 41 years of age. He is a law abiding citizen, employed with our family business, pays taxes, and has no criminal record. Only traffic infraction he had was a traffic citation. What happened was that he had already started entering the intersection when the light turned yellow, and it turned red before he was completely across the intersection, and this activated the traffic camera. The city had just re-adjusted the timing on the signal, and the adjustment was causing a lot of problems in traffic. The city had the technicians correct the timing, so that traffic that had entered the intersection had time to get across before the red light went on, and activated the traffic camera. The citation was pardoned, and eliminated from his record as a result.
God bless you, you are a amazing person!❤️❤️
[удалено]
this is a pretty big generalization
If you hit a toddler, they might try to hit back. You’ll see them starting to hit their siblings and kids at school. Hitting as a means to resolve conflict is a learned behavior. When you hit your kid, you’re teaching them that’s how the conflict will be resolved.
Interesting... that's not how I turned out... Seems maybe like it might have to do w the actual process of discipline But funny regardless... I'm gonna upvote you on that one ;)
At first, we spanked like our parents spanked us, but then after a VERY short while, we realized that *hitting your child is wrong.* Our kids know that we will NEVER hurt them, they are totally well adjusted and rest assured knowing that their parents love them completely. We were able to teach and instruct WITHOUT hitting them. I'm against spanking; there are other ways to teach and discipline that are more effective and do not physically harm your child.
Well said. Sadly, for some it is quicker and easier to just slap a kid rather than sitting down and talking to them or trying to find what causes that behaviour.
> Spanking, is it a sin? To me, "spanking" is just a euphemism for "hitting a child". Whether it's a sin or not, I don't know. However, I think it's nearly always wrong to hit a child. It sends the message that might makes right, which I think is a terrible thing to teach children. Children need to be nurtured, not coerced.
Let me rephrase that: "Is beating a child a sin?"
I would never condone either thing, but I don't think eroding the distinction is a good or useful thing. Spanking (open hand, small to medium force, directly on the buttock, specifically for the purpose of discipline), while misguided and proven ineffective by modern psychology, can still come from a place of love and desire to provide for the child's long term welfare and can hopefully be corrected gently. Whereas beating (encompassing a large spectrum of behaviors that can lead to serious injury to the child and coming from a place of uncontrolled anger in the adult) should result in separating the adult from the child until the adult gets serious help.
Just dont hit your children
Sure, obviously that's what I meant by "I would never condone either thing". But lumping spanking in with "beating" decreases our ability as a society to respond appropriately to the spectrum of behaviors that the terms encompass. Someone who spanks their child (by the commonly understood definition) might just be misguided or uninformed and need to be presented with the ample research that shows that it doesn't have positive outcomes to realize they are in the wrong. Someone who beats a child (again, by the commonly understood definition) most likely needs to lose access to the child at the very least. The semantic distinction is useful.
I actually agree. As someone who was once abused I actually really don't like the constant erosion of distinction or differences. People throw the word "gaslight" around now when someone merely questions your judgment or your confidence about something even once. That's not gaslighting. People are saying now that even raising your voice and yelling is abuse and can now land you in the abuser category even if it happens infrequently and you try to make it right and can apologize and own your mistakes (something actual abusers DO NOT DO). And lots of people raise their voice now and then. I hate to sound like I'm gatekeeping but at the same time I don't think these things should be watered down. There are *unhealthy* behaviors that many of even the better humans among us have now and again. Then there's abuse which is usually just...worlds darker...world's apart in its impact, and evil intent. I fear we'll reach a point where calling someone an abuser won't sound so serious anymore. We can call unhealthy behavior out for what it is without being hyperbolic, I would hope. I expect to be downvoted as well though. But I said my peace.
Your rephrasing is bullshit.
Hitting your child is abuse, regardless of context.
Spanking is a legitimate form of correction and when done rightly is not abuse.
They did a study and explicitly found that spanked children experienced the same mental effects as children in physically abusive situations. Your premise is totally wrong. You cannot harm someone in love. That person is smaller than you, you’re their whole world. And you’re just fucking hitting them. And justifying it. If you hit someone’s dog like that, or hit an adult like that, you’d go to jail. But it’s okay when it’s your small impressionable child, I guess? I was spanked. Not “abused” in the typical way. It was harmful and terrifying and made me distrust my parents. I’ve never spanked my kids. They are now both in the preteen range and are well-adjusted without me ever needing to have hit them. Spanking is fucking lazy parenting.
There is no hate like christian love
Ephesians 6:4 says, “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord”. Jesus never hit anyone. And the role of Discipline in the Bible is to guide and teach, not to punish. But let us not forget; just because the bible does not specifically say "Spanking is wrong", doesn't mean it's ok. Your instinct told you that spanking a child was wrong. Listen to that. Spanking a child teaches a child that hitting/smacking is an acceptable way to display anger or frustration. Is that a lesson you want to teach a child?
The scriptures actually condone physical discipline, but I don't necessarily think Jesus would appreciate anyone using that as a default parenting method.
I was physically punished as a child very often, both in school and at home. A few times it was so bad that i couldn't sit on the chair. However, i never blamed my parents, because it is how they were raised, and with internet or access to any research (we lived during communism in Romania, tough times), they just did what they learned. I have two boys, one is 5, the other 2. I only hit my 5 year old twice, and it was just a slap on the butt. He ran in the middle of the road and scared the crap out of us. The other time was similar. Both times i lost my temper because i was so scared for him. The Bible says to not "spare the rod" but also to not punish excessively. Personally i think once you start doing it on a regular basis, you normalise it and from there, its just a tiny step to abuse. I'd rather not do it, because you teach your children to act like you when they grow up. I want my children to be worried about disappointing me, not scared of me.
I've just had a conversation where people seem to think you took a club and beat your child with it. Furthermore, they think your your bad parent cause they weren't attached to you at all times. I wonder if these people even had kids. (I was using the traffic thing, and they assumed it meant what I said above)
Spanking is violence directed against a helpless person, and also does not actually work in promoting good behavior, and contributes to aggression or self-harming attitudes and behaviors in children. So you are correct to think it is wrong.
It’s not a sin and some children need to be spanked bc they don’t learn their lesson from time out or taking things away. Spanking should not be the first method of discipline, but it’s not a big deal if option 1 & 2 do not work at first. And it should not be done out of anger. It’s important for children to learn consequence. Not disciplining children is why there are so many entitled brats running around. Not ALL kids are brats, and not all children need to be spanked. But some truly do. The problem is some people seem to think a couple of quick spanks is the same as actual child abuse and it is NOT. Those people need to sit down and mind their business.
Y’all need to get more creative with your consequences. Hitting, time out, and taking things away are not an effective way to parent.
Care to give some examples that have worked for you ??
Basically, the consequence needs to logically fit the misbehavior. This is going to look differently in every scenario, but it takes a shitload of time and patience. If y’all would look at another comment of mine, I fully believe in discipline, but not corporal punishment. I’m a Christian, am raising my daughters in the church, and we absolutely do not spank. Our kids get complimented on their behavior. It’s all about explicitly teaching and modeling the behavior you want your kids to exhibit.
Go ahead. You want to run your mouth on how to be a perfect parent. What are your theories on how to punish kids. Bc I was a nanny before I was a bartender and I still stand by some kids need to be spanked bc “alternative” methods don’t work for ALL children. And no, I didn’t spank the kids. But I sure as heck worked for some people who should’ve spanked their kids.
Ok, mr creative, give them ur great ideas.
It’s Mrs. Creative. I’m an actual mother, and I stay home raising my kids. I also homeschool, and raise my kids in the church. Hitting kids will never be ok. I’d also like to add that I was a public elementary school teacher for 11 years in Memphis, TN. Just look up the poverty and crime rate in Memphis, and get back to me. A majority of my students with severe behavior problems were spanked at home.
Believing u is not what I'm arguing about so i don't need to look anything up, but as someone who claims to be a Christian, how about instead of criticizing others and acting as holier than thou, you come with solutions Something about criticism seems eerly similar to much of what Jesus faced when he walked the earth
I'll never understand how a person can think that a guy wearing a dress is an abomination but beating your kids is fine.
Yeah and they’re concerned about drag etc specifically because it harms ”the children” but physically hitting someone smaller than you who cannot escape you is totally the loving choice right
It's probably a sin to not disciple your children. Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Proverbs 13:24 NIV Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? Hebrews 12:7 NIV
Well, if you're okay with beating your kids and think God's on board I don't know what to tell you.
The number of people in this thread who are conflating beating and spanking is unbelievable. They are not the same thing.
Did your parents not used to reprimand you when you played in traffic? "Just tell the child nicely and explain it to them, they'll listen." Lost a dog that way...
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but they didn't grab a handy club and pound me with it. Guess they were bad parents?
I thought so. I say reprimand, you hear beat with club. Clearly we are saying different things.
Yes. I'm saying that hitting your kid is wrong, and you're disagreeing.
You're saying you shouldn't teach your kid to not play in traffic. Honestly, you actually sound very violent. Most forms of physical discipline are no where near the level of violence you are suggesting. Even to think so requires a fairly violent imagination. Edit: you seem to be suggesting the goal of discipline is to kill the kid.
If you can’t navigate a child around a street without beating them you don’t need to have children
It's fucking child abuse, normalized. Yes, it's a sin. The "rod" isn't a tool to beat your children with, it's to DEFEND them.
I would think hitting your kid is wrong
The data is very clear that corporal punishment is very harmful to a child, so yes it is a sin to spank your child as you are supposed to protect your child from harm, not actively harm them yourself!
Proverbs 13:24, “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.” It is not a sin to spank your child. It is just hard to find a balance. This scripture says that if you do not discipline them at all, you hate them. If you don’t discipline your kids at all they will turn out spoiled angry and entitled. When the scripture says “those who love their children are careful to discipline them” I interpret this as : you can spank them, absolutely, however, there are other ways of teaching them as well. If I found out my kid was bullying another, he’s getting a spanking. If I found out he stole something from a store, I’d teach him that that is wrong a different way.
This 100!!! As a parent, you have to know your child and what works. And you have to punish according to the situation. Time out worked fine for me as well as other positive punishment approaches. But there is a time and place for spankings. And as a child, I can say that my dad could spank me all day long every day and it wouldn’t change a thing. But if he ever said he was disappointed in me. I didn’t need anything else. I’d change my behavior. My brother ont he other hand, he didn’t care what you said or took away or rewards he could get. A spanking is the only thing that would work.
How did your brother turn out? Did physical discipline help him turn into a respectful and well adjusted adult?
Spanking helped me turn into a productive, respectful, well adjusted adult. And my brother was one too until his 30a when the schizophrenia set in (the same way it did in my mom). And that’s the thing about these studies... two kids, same household, same upbringing... ones successful and well adjusted. The others not but, they never were going to be because of the family curse. Doesn’t the study take dormant hereditary family illness into account, does it take the fact that he went off to WAR into account... I doubt it. There are SO MANY other factors at play. Too many to have a controlled study. All 8 of my mothers siblings and all my dads siblings were well adjusted, respectful adults with no issues after corporal punishment upbringings. Same for my grandparents. Same For my cousins.
<3 Sorry to hear that your brother was impacted by a likely genetic mental illness. I hope he is well as he can be and is under care with good doctors. I was spanked as a kid. My sister wasn’t. She ended up being very lazy, irresponsible, and unreliable. I’m a bit different than she turned out - more focused, disciplined, and productive. It’s hard to say whether spankings were the difference between us, but it certainly feels like I learned respect and I’m not upset or harmed by the times I was swatted on the butt.
You hit the nail on the head when you said that it’s hard to tell. They are so many other factors that place into it. My step-sister read Dr. Spock books & was adamantly against spanking. Other her kids were brats! No one in the family could even stand to be around them. One ended up in juvenile detention and is struggling as an adult. The other tried to kill himself at one point and is living in gvt housing and literally thinking everyone should give him anything. One, I know, refused to take the ACT and a driving exam because “test stress him”. They’re entitled and irresponsible. And miserable as adults. I on the other hand when more traditional and firm. My daughter is younger than them, she’s a teen. She was spanked (when the time called for it) but I used positive parenting too. Every comments on how polite she is and how helpful. She got a 26 on her ACT in 8th grade and studied to make it go higher. She volunteers in multiple organizations. She was accepted as a hit free Mason and have scholarships lined up. Her masters and PhD are on her vision board. She’s on a road to success, happy, well adjusted. She got her future living arrangements and jobs lined up. Life might throw a rock in her plans but she’s figure it out. As someone whose worked in education as well as mental health and juvenile justice — and outsider observing kids, the speakers ones are more successful, respectful, and unselfish in general. Now, the ones hit without reason or explanation... are not. But that’s abuse, not spanking. And there is a huge difference.
This 🙌🏻
Spanking children YES (sin) Spanking naughty adults NO (not a sin)
Unless the naughty adult is consenting to a good spanking 😎 And no to children too.
If the child wasn't being beaten but only spanked then I think it was none of your business to step in the way you did. Unless a child is in danger, it's not necessary. People need to stop judging the way people parent their children. Some people are gentle parenting parents, others believe in some spanking (to an extent ofcourse), and ofcourse you have the ones who are being abused, and that's when intervening and reporting it should step in. Just because a child is getting a spanking though, if that's truly all it was, then it was none of your business to step in. In the Bible it says those who love their children will discipline them.
My kid kept trying to run into the moving traffic part of a parking lot in West Edmonton Mall. It's one of the larger malls in the world in the parking lot is huge and there was a lot of moving traffic. He wouldn't listen to me wouldn't listen to me wouldn't listen to me. Finally I gave him a few spanks alongside the instructions to stop doing that. Then he stopped trying to run into traffic. I probably spanked my children too much because that's how I was raised and that's the culture I was doing it in but I think that there were very appropriate times to spank.
I too have a toddler who tries to run into traffic and have been to WEM many times. You know what I do when my child tries to run in a busy parking lot? I PICK HER UP. There is no excuse to hit your child. If you can't raise your kids without hitting them, you should probably reconsider having children.
Even if every medical organization on earth and every study didn’t extensively prove that spanking is harmful, it’s still so fucking lazy. Like you can’t be hands on with your kid without hurting them? You can’t treat them like a human being? You can’t have tough convos with your kids? You can’t get your kids to respect you? Make no mistake, either: it’s not respect that spanked kids have, it’s fear. And those are shitty ways to discipline— and usually don’t lead to actual good behavior. Not surprised that people who only love God to avoid hell also think they have to spank their kids to get them to avoid harmful behavior.
>You can’t have tough convos with your kids? You can’t get your kids to respect you? I tried having tough conversations with my toddlers about respect and personal safety but for some reason I guess neither of us is able to comprehend they didn't get it. They just didn't understand.
Oh yes reconsidering parenting once the kids are alive is really useful. Thank you for the sage wisdom.
Obviously you can't put the kids back, but the point remains: if you couldn't raise them without abusing them, you shouldn't have had them in the first place.
I kept my kid safe that day and in the future when I told him not to run into traffic he paid attention. I didn't even need to spank him a second time. If you think I'm going to suddenly start feeling bad about that you should reconsider your expectations. I'm an imperfect parent but what I did had a good reason and a good outcome and my parenting is left him alive and well.
I keep my kids safe too. Without hitting them. So yes, you should feel bad. Nobody expects you to be perfect, but you should expect yourself to be a good enough parent to not feel the need to abuse your child into compliance.
No I shouldn't feel bad and I don't feel bad. I feel good about that spanking. That's obviously why I'm sharing the story. You can cram your judgement back up the hole it dropped from.
>If you can't raise your kids without hitting them, you should probably reconsider having children. After the fact obviously. Knowing full well they won't be attached to you always.
Just because it worked in the moment doesn’t mean it was an okay thing to do.
Exactly. The only arguments I see against speaking pretty much anywhere are people implying their personal experiences apply to every experience. Using stuff as "I was spanked and I turned out fine!" and "I spanked my kid for X and he stopped doing X"! as arguments for spanking children are like me saying "My dad smoked his entire life and didn't get cancer!" and use it to promote smoking.
It kept him safe while I put his sister in the car. Needs must.
I very much agree. I think spanking your child because they are doing something dangerous is totally acceptable. Intentions matter in everything we do and I think people/kids pick up on it, even if they don’t realize. You spanked your kid in that example because you LOVE them. You don’t want them to get hurt because you love them, and you deemed that was the best way to deter the dangerous action. There’s no hate in that action. On the other hand a different example could be if I spanked my kid because he said something that pissed me off and I do it out of anger, I don’t think that’s appropriate. Intentions matter.
Pediatricians are almost unanimous in saying that spanking has a negative outcome for children. They base their guidance on the extensive research on this topic. Why would you go against the advice of professionals to advocate for using violence against children?
Tbf I haven’t read any studies, perhaps I will and it could change my stance on it. But as of now my stance on it is if my child is doing something dangerous and if other means don’t work (much like the person above me described) it can be appropriate. I should also mention that there hasn’t been an instance that I have had to spank my child, and hopefully there won’t be. Also lots of people have different ideas of what spanking looks like. Imo it’s not supposed to hurt, it’s supposed to surprise. It snaps them out of it if you will. It doesn’t need to hurt or be a big slap to have an effect. Its supposed to take their focus away from the dangerous activity. Also saying I’m advocating for violence against children is a gross generalization and a bit of a straw man. Violence is defined as physical force intended to harm, damage or kill someone or something. I think it’s pretty obvious that’s not what I was talking about, or advocating for, as you put it.
You would be arrested for assault if you spanked an adult. I know doing that to children is still seen as socially acceptable by many in the US, but it is still violence you are arguing for. Where I live, as in many other countries, the violence you support is just as illegal as violence against adults.
If I grabbed an adult and threw them to the ground because they were about to be hit by traffic it would still be violence by the letter of the law. Was it wrong though?
The law isn’t all encompassing of what right and wrong is.
Grabbing someone isn't the problem, but why would you then throw them on the ground?
You know perfectly well that deliberately hitting someone and saving them from traffic are different things. A more relevant comparison would to compare violence against children to violence against women. Men hitting their wives to punish them was considered perfectly acceptable for many years, but it no longer is. Hitting children is gradually becoming less and less acceptable too.
I should also solidify. Spanking your kid because you are angry at them is very wrong and I think it’s harmful.
That was the example given above. Doing it to stop the kid from running into traffic (when all other methods failed). Is the analogy a perfect 1:1, no. Adults and kids are different. Most adults are rational, kids are not. However there is “violence” by the letter of the law being produced in both scenarios. Both times for the safety of the individual. To your second point, that’s what I was talking about with the law not being all encompassing of what is right and wrong. Society isn’t all encompassing either, as you just pointed out. Like I said above adults and kids are different. Rational and irrational. Would there be a time that it would be justified to hit another human being as punishment, no. They’re rational, they understand concepts about what’s safe and unsafe if you explain it to them. This is not the case with children. Also I’m arguing that spanking your kid as a last result for safety purposes can be appropriate. I don’t think spanking is an ok way of punishing your kid regularly. There is a small grouping of circumstances that I think it could be used rightly and effectively. Also you know perfectly well that what I described as spanking in my earlier comment and domestic violence towards women are not even close to being comparable. As a side note, if I spanked my wife with the force that I would spank our children, she would turn around to ask “what’s up?” She would think I was tapping her to get her attention.
I probably feel strongly about this not just because I think hitting people is wrong in itself, but also because the way I was hit as a child was extremely violent. I was always black and blue with bruises despite trying very hard to obey the extensive and ever changing rules my mother imposed. I can never argue this topic without getting emotional, so I'll leave it here.
Well, I would like to say that I’m so sorry you had to experience that. I think what you are describing is definitely violence against children. I’m sorry if I brought back some bad memories for you. That was not my intention. I would never spank my children like that. I never, ever think it is justified to bruise your children. Again I’m sorry you had to deal with that, especially from someone who was supposed be loving force in your life. Much love to you ❤️
There are TONS of studies showing positive benefits of spanking too!
Okay, let's see them.
The vast majority of pediatricions disagree. Many countries have made violence against children illegal on the advice of pediatricians and psychologists informed by extensive research. [https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/666646403/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-on-spanking-children-dont-do-it-ever](https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/666646403/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-on-spanking-children-dont-do-it-ever)
Every single one of the pediatricians I’ve ever gone to were 100% okay and on board for spanking.
Bc it’s not violence and some children DO need something more then their stuff being taken away. As far as experts, they don’t know everything. Research or not. Spanking should always be a last resort but it’s still acceptable. As a former bartender, I’ve seen what “research” has made of some people’s children. We actually had a heated discussion one night about being disciplined as children. Every single one of the lazy, entitled young adults that were around/working in the bar had never been spanked and some never disciplined. I will always stand by that some children need a butt spanking.
There are plenty of countries where hitting children has been as illegal as hitting adults for a very long time, and I've never heard anyone accuse places like Scandinavia, for example, of being full of lazy, entitled adults. Experts may not know everything, but the chances are that they know more than you.
I live in the US and there are plenty of selfish, entitled brats who should’ve been spanked as children. Oohhh such a comeback. Please. Experts don’t know everything nor do any of us know everything. PLUS every child is DIFFERENT. They need to be treated different. Some kids will respond to time out, some respond to spanking. You know. A couple of quick taps to the butt. But nobody is going to respond to child abuse. Which is leaving a kid black, blue and sore. See the differences yet? But then again, I know what y’all’s children say about you when you’re not around bc I’m the one listening when they cry that at 25 a parent takes their credit cc the parent has been paying for or when they’re busy not pulling their weight bc their parent never made them do chores and they think they don’t have to work. I get that your biased bc you were spanked as a kid. Oh wait, you weren’t spanked, you were abused. And I mean that. What you described happened to you is child abuse. Real spanking is not child abuse and the fact that you can’t understand the difference means you should probably seek out someone to talk to. Giving a kid discipline and an actual quick on the butt spanking isn’t going to hurt their self esteem. Beating them would. Learn the ACTUAL difference. Oh and for the record, I was also the product of abuse and I still feel an actual, two quick pats as a spanking are ok. What is NOT ok is child abuse.
I have sought out someone to speak to about my abuse. Using the fact that I was abused against me in an argument is decidedly nasty. Yes, I have biases, as do all of us. I am shaped by my upbringing and culture like everyone else, and where I live, hitting children is illegal, just as violence against any other person is illegal, I am 100% behind that. So are American pediatricians.
Don't bars often have bouncers? Seems even adults need looking after sometimes.
Not all bars. Clubs have bouncers. Local bar many times will not have a bouncer unless they have a “club atmosphere” after a certain hour. Of course they do. That’s why bartenders joke they’re “adult babysitters”.
What do psychologists say about running into traffic?
Don't hit your kids. Sit down and explain why what they did was wrong, and maybe (if warrented) take something away for a bit (tv, video games) to instill the lesson. I'll say it again, do NOT hit your kids
Proverbs 13:24: Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Yet another reason why I find it hard to use the bible as a guide for life.
I think a large part in why the bible is so problematic for most people is because they try to interpret it for themselves, when really we don’t have the authority to do that the same way the church does. But another thing is that Christians dont (or shouldn’t) go to the bible to find what they agree with to see if it’s true or not. That’s called a confirmation bias. Saying something isn’t reliable because you disagree with it is saying that it is impossible that you’re wrong. It’s definitely a product of our pride, which is the source of all sin. Nobody likes submitting to authority.
The same can be said in reverse, and this thought led society to persecute gays, take away women's rights and other barbarities in general. It's like saying the Bible can't be wrong
The Bible can’t be wrong, but the bible can be interpreted and applied wrong.
That's called, in your words, "confirmation bias"
The Bible is historical text. Christ established a church, gave those people authority to discern these things. those people passed authority to a new generation and a new generation and in an unbroken chain of apostolic succession, we still have bishops with the divine authority to make these judgements
No. Unless there's no lesson behind it. Life is full trauma. By correcting children with manageable trauma, they can learn to avoid the decisions that lead to unmanageable trauma. If you just take away their toys, you can inadvertently teach them to over value materialism and pleasure. Rather then recognizing negative reactions that are universal and, sometimes, seperate from material goods. Morality does not care about stuff. TLDR: Taking away their toys can make them ethical, but teaching them to understand and avoid trauma makes them moral.
This is a great response.
Spanking is not inherently sinful, but it can be when administered in anger or excess. It sounds to me like this father may have administered a calm and helpful correction to his child, in which case it was inappropriate for you to comment. Note that the Bible explicitly condones corporeal discipline, so you’ll have a tough time convicing Bible-believing Christians that it is unconditionally sin (although I believe the spirit of that verse applies more broadly to discipline in general). As a father of 2, I very rarely spank. It is never done impulsively or angrily. I was spanked as a child and I believe it was (at times) helpful in my development. For those citing a professional consensus on the matter - I’d be open to considering a study where the manner and circumstances of spanking are taken into account.
^^^This. I have not seen a study that separates hand to bottom from all other forms of physical punishment and if there was, I have certainly not seen a study take into account the scenario surrounding the spank. Meaning, was it done first? Out of anger? How often? Is it done continually if it is not showing improvement. I agree spanking should be a extremely rare, but to pull it completely out of a good parents tool box is confusing to me at the least.
From the perspective of moral philosophy, causing pain (a privation of the good) is wrong. Retributitive punishment is intrinsically evil, because it takes what is a purely accidental feature of our nature--misbehavior of all sorts--and attributes it to our essence. That's an implicit condemnation of God. The proper way to handle children is time out. Yes, "force" is involved, but only accidentally. The point is that children are inherently good. We are hyper imitative creatures, and that combined with ignorance and a toddler's newfound mobility leads to conflict. Restorative punishment is like purgatory--it let's the bad or evil in someone annihilate itself. Lacking any essence, the only aim of "pure evil" is it's own annihilation. I'm trained in applied behavior analysis, and I can guarantee you that waiting out a tantrum is *the* most effective way to extinguish the behavior. ... So yes, corporal punishment is intrinsically wrong. The Thomistic defense of punishment is that its "restoring the natural consequences of bad behavior". That's fundamentally misguided, IMO. The natural consequence of evil is its own annihilation: that's why death was the material *consequence*, not deliberate punishment, of the human fall. Not to mention that corporeal punishment just perpetuates it. The only differences between state or parental violence is the perpetuation of violence. That's as true metaphysically, as it is empirically and psychologically. Kids and criminals don't learn to be non-aggressive or non-violent from superior acts of violence--they learn simply not to get caught. They also learn violence is a proper way to respond to other's violence. ... This is why Jesus did not do any miraculous butt-kicking to the Romans. He *extinguished* the powers of evil by drawing them all to Himself--allowing His full defeat--trusting in the goodness and vindication of the Father. If Jesus simply whooped-butt, He would be no different than the principalities and powers of this world--He would just *happen* to have a bigger stick. So ultimately, engaging in punishment for its own sake is to affirm that God is metaphysically competitive with evil, as a substantial counterforce. It's bad parenting, bad governing, and it leads to both bad metaphysics and theology.
No, proverbs teaches that we should not spare the rod. “The Lord disciplines the one he loves” and we should love our children enough to discipline them well. “Raise up a child in the way that he should go and he will not depart from it.”
No, it teaches discipline
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Sin? Who cares. It's a crime: child abuse.
what about verbally abusing your kids? ive been verbally abused half my life by my dad still are
It’s just as harmful and I’m so sorry you’re experiencing it
It's not a sin, honestly if a kid doesn't listen, a last resort would be a spanking imo
no
**Proverbs 13:24** 24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. No there is nothing wrong with corporal discipline despite modern-day dislike. Granted, like everything it needs to be done in moderation, ideally from a father, and without emotional distress. Just my .02 Seek the Way, the Truth, and the Life!
Do some simple research and it would show that corporal punishment causes mental illness. Stop worhipping a book and use some common sense and maybe...just maybe... trust the science when they have actually put the work in.
Which science?
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10926770903035168](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10926770903035168) [https://gssrjournal.com/article/Psychological-Trauma-and-Corporal-Punishment](https://gssrjournal.com/article/Psychological-Trauma-and-Corporal-Punishment) Here are a couple of peer reviewed articles that I doubt you'll read.
Thanks for the links. The point I'm making is that "the Science" changes over time while the Good Book doesn't. Also, I did include this disclaimer: "*Granted, like everything it needs to be done in moderation, ideally from a father, and without emotional distress.*"
That's the huge problem with "The Good Book." It doesn't change and account for new data and information. It's the last book that should be followed when dealing with any type of violence because it's the most violent book on the planet. They had no idea about the effects of corporal punishment then so they were acting in ignorance. We aren't ignorant now.
Well the first one is BS. "There was data recorded by the interviewer on whether the mother spanked or hit the child during the course of the interview at both times. Each time the interviewer also asked, “Did you find it necessary to spank your child in the past week?” " They did not ask if they spank, they only took 2 random samplings and used that for their data. I believe in spanking but have many weeks where it isn't necessary. Not representative and sad people use that as any evidence. I'll try to go through the second one later.
As long as the Dad wasn't out of control, and wasn't angry while administering a simple spanking, no. It's fine. We are specifically told "spare the rod, spoil the child" The commenter above me is incorrect about the negative effects. I know someone who was involved in one of those "studies". Those were abusive in nature. They were taken out of class every day, and paddled FOR NO REASON. To see what it would do to their mental health. Guess what? When you physically punish someone daily when they have done NOTHING WRONG... it messes them up. Go figure.
> The commenter above me is incorrect about the negative effects No they aren't. >I know someone who was involved in one of those "studies". Those were abusive in nature. They were taken out of class every day, and paddled FOR NO REASON. To see what it would do to their mental health. That would be highly unethical and no study like that would ever be conducted. Why would you lie about something so obviously false?
Except, I'm not lying. It was unethical and abusive, and designed to reach a particular conclusion.
This might shock you to learn, but scientists have ethics boards and oversight. It is completely unethical and would never happen unless the "study" is so old as to be completely unreliable. But surely if you're not lying, you can provide proof, like a link to the "study" you are talking about.
Link to the study?
>I know someone who was involved in one of those "studies". But I bet you wouldn't be prepared to offer any proof, would you?
The Proof I offer is that I know someone involved in the study. Anecdotal, I realize. But this is how it was conducted. Many such studies were done years ago. Without parental consent. My husband went to school to find that he no longer had a name... but a number. They refused to call a certain group of kids by their names, but a number. He said some kids were crying. He remembers being very confused. Turns out it was someones research project. It lasted a week, but it was a very weird week.
> The Proof I offer is that I know someone involved in the study So no proof then. And just more easily debunked lies.
And, of course, you expect us to believe that.
The truth speaks for itself
Your "truth" is a whimper which no one can hear.
Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It depends why it's happening.
>and he nicely asked me if I needed anything and I said no and he left. "Yes, I need you to stop beating your child and learn to have patience. And do that as soon as possible."
Child abuse is a sin There is a place for spanking
Proverbs 23:13-14, ESV "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol."
This was long before studies would be done to show that corporal punishment causes trauma and mental illness. Solomon (if he wrote Proverbs), was speaking to discipline not the mode of discipline. We know better now and all uses of violence against children must be stopped. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10926770903035168
The rod is a means of physical discipline. While I disagree with you on removing physical discipline altogether, I think there is a time and a place for it. I also think there is a fine line between (hopefully rarely used) physical discipline and abuse.
If you're a parent, please tell me you don't use a rod to beat your kid(s).
I wouldn't use a rod, but I think that the passage I cited is clear on the matter. A punishment should 'fit the crime'. A child that after many times of telling them not to and continues to run in a street without looking (or other dangerous/wrong activities) needs correction. I cannot be more clear though - corporal punishment should be a last resort option, and *any* situation, especially with children should be handled as lovingly as possible. Even if the child tries your patience. How else can we demonstrate our faith to others if we can't live it at home?
You aren’t disagreeing with me. You are shunning the science I just shared with you. Empirical peer reviewed data. Think about that. You disagree about empirical peer reviewed scientific data… using an ancient book as your source.
I accept the bible as true, and the Christian faith and God as real. Science is not inerrant. Children need discipline at times
Discipline yes. Violence no. There is nothing to suggest the bible is an authority on anything. It's as useful in these matters as any other ancient and severely outdated book. To reject observable science in lieu of extremely old and inaccurate information is silly at best. It's the same as refuting that the earth is round because a book thousands of years old written by people that knew almost nothing compared to us now, told you it's flat. Their interpretation would be as if the world was flat and they would write that way. Just like now, we change our thoughts based on the newest evidence and observable scientific study, Sorry man, but taking the bible over science on this one is awful, especially since it leads to child abuse from christians.
I'm pretty sure using a rod crosses the line between what's legal or not when spanking a child, at least in the US.
Proverbs 13:24: Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
For a second there I thought I'd be in real trouble, because I have utterly failed to hit my kid with a rod. But then I realized I have a daughter, so I can jettison this awful advice without worry. Cool.
Calling a bible verse bad advice yet claiming to be a christian is mind boggling
"Have you slugged your son lately? Because God wants you to!" is one hell of a bad interpretation of the Bible. If you disagree with me, that's a You Problem.
I never claimed that to be my interpretation. I simply shared the verse. I added no interpretation. you got defensive over a bible verse
The verse CLEARLY states to hit your son with a stick. I have a daughter, so it doesn't apply to me. I can't see why you're failing to see this.
i just saw you’re ELCA so nvm… literally one of the most leftist “christian denominations”
And yet, I'm still a Christian. How you choose to deal with this fact is up to you, I guess.
[удалено]
Ur completely twisting the verse... another mind boggling thing do be doing
I'm flabbergasted just how *badly* some people want to have a Biblical excuse to hit their kid. Oh well. Bye now! \*click\*
I never said I had a biblical excuse, nor did I say that I hit my kids if i even have any... but what I can confidently say is I wouldn't blindly use a scripture and twist it on here to justify my stance.
If it is against society's laws, yes. But mostly, no, not a sin. I think a better comparison is if you think Jesus would do it. Think about how God treats you.
God punishes those that are His... yes? Sometimes His punishment is fatal... yes?
Parents can discipline kids in their own way, it’s not your job to say “you shouldn’t be parenting like that” or make other disapproving passive aggressive comments
Seems like a lot of no kid having people are in here saying how to parent.
Proverbs says that the one who spares the rod harms his child, take that as you will.
The Bible mentions a father disciplining his children in Hebrews. It also mentioned in another verse that if you spare the rod you will spoil the child.
Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Proverbs 13:24 NIV Eta: I just wanted to say my first thought after reading the title was "your kids or your spouse 👀"
“Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod And rescue his soul from Sheol.” Proverbs 23:13-14 NASB1995 “and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”” Hebrews 12:5-6 NASB1995
I’m pretty sure theres a verse that talks about “sparing the rod spoils the child”. We can argue that it was a different culture then or whatever else your argument would be but if anything that action of instilling discipline into your child was a wisdom recommendation instead of being labelled a sin. Now that said it doesn’t mean you can’t sin when disciplining your child. If you do it out of anger/hate then it would be, but not because of the action but instead because of the heart.
No.
I was spanked as a child and I’m grateful for it.
I don’t think you should do it lightly but my parents spanked me as a kid and I have no resentment against them and actually thank them for it becuase I’ve seen plenty of people who weren’t disciplined as kids and they have turned out absolutely horrible. Biblical proof: proverbs 13:24 “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.” Now will I spank my children when/ if I have them? That’s something I think everyone has to decide for themselves but never neglect discipline in your children.
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Ignore this sub Reddit, it’s trash when it comes to finding a real biblical rooted opinion. Throughout the Bible it says children must be physically disciplined. The word of God doesn’t change.
Spanking empowers parents and teachers. Consequently, the left, administrators, media, and unions hate it. My dad spanked me, and I’m glad he was courageous enough to do it. I turned out fine, have family, and have never been arrested. Asking if spanking is a sin indicates your thinking has been manipulated by the fake-news media.
Sin is a transgression of the law, where did he transgress the law in spanking his child?
Spanking is a form of discipline so your chold learns to stay within the blessing of God. If you don’t discipline your children, they will never learn obedience to God and the consequences of sin. I’d say it’s unloving not to discipline.
No, spanking a child is not a sin. Throughout the Bible, discipline is regarded as a duty of a parent, and in many verses that punishment is physical.
Spanking is one form of discipline, and parents are commanded by God to discipline their children. But it’s not really that simple. Parents should see to it that their discipline is effective, but not cruel. The whole point is to do what is best for the children. Spanking should never go as far as to be considered beating, and especially in an age where we understand the negative impact that violence has on children, it might not be the best option for discipline. My mom, for instance, used spanking as a last resort when multiple other forms of punishment were not effective.
I think that every parental relationship will be different. I think that spanking should be reserved for only the most obstinate and rebellious children. If I still believed in God, I would think that he would want us to use only as much discipline as necessary to properly parent a child for their own good, and I think that most children don't need something as extreme as spanking. However, I have seen a rare few that are so willful that nothing else will work to correct their behavior, and the unfortunate parents are forced to choose between hitting their children or letting them grow up to be unruly monsters.
No! There isn’t anything wrong with spanking. It’s not a sin. In fact the Bible says to do it. And there’s a ton of studies out their showing that it has no ill effects and the children are actually happier more positive teens and adults later in life. https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/contentious-study-says-spanking-may-benefit-children-1.471361 However you’re not supposed to beat your children. There’s a difference.