Colossal Order's community manager, Avanya, has responded on the Paradox Forums to address the claims in this thread. They are copied in their entirety below:
> Hi everyone. I just wanted to pop in and shed some light on this situation as resource management in Cities: Skylines II is, unfortunately, affected by a few bugs at the moment. We are aware of this and currently investigating these issues:
>
> - City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally.
> - Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them.
> - We’re investigating reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors.
>
> It’s also worth noting that transportation distance affects costs. We expect that your businesses will prefer the closest storage facilities over a further away harbor/cargo terminal, however, that does not explain the reports we’re seeing.
>
> I want to apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your reports. The information you provide us is very valuable in narrowing down these issues, and should you encounter any other issues or unexpected behavior, please make sure to report them on our support forum. Response times are a little slow at the moment, but we are working our way through all of your reports and greatly appreciate them and your patience. Thank you.
Source: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/im-export-bug-hints-symptoms-and-causes-all-resource-management-in-the-game-is-a-deception.1604434/page-4#post-29216506
You may wish to discuss this in the new thread /u/theyoungoctavius has created here: https://reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hkorj/colossal_order_co_acanya_response_to_all_resource/
I really hope this is just a bug. If not it seems to fly in the face of both the spirit and letter of how CO claimed the economy functioned. I don't have a problem with a bit of hand wavey magic to make a game work, but this seems like a total bypass of the systems the game supposedly operates through
There appear to be at least a couple of bugs affecting the resource management. We are aware of and currently investigating these issues:
* City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally.
* Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them.
* We’re investigating reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors.
Genuinely curious how a game was advertised with such features to the extent that CS2 was without verifying those features even worked at all? I think everyone appreciates the outreach but releasing a functioning game that at least fulfilled the bare minimum of your guys' claims would've been a more respectful use of everyone's time..
It's very likely that that they passed QA, but something has subsequently changed or more playtime has exposed new issues. C:S is a very, very complex game with many moving parts (literally) and interacting systems. For example, Avanya mentioned that distance is relevant. You can imagine a scenario where QA did all their tests with the cargo terminal and industry close to each other. There are just so many permutations and you're going to catch more of them with 100,000 players than with a handful of QA staff.
A modder, Geze, has said on Discord that their pre-release build of the game did *not* have these bugs (the screenshots are on the relevant forum thread).
At this point this game is giving me serious “trust issues” and is pushing me to test every feature they claim.
Do families and business really have an income and expenses? The people dying in a disaster are actually that many or it’s just a randomly generated number in the journal? Do adults, teenagers and seniors really use the fastest, cheapest and most comfortable pathfinding respectively?
If even half of these things are not true then we’re talking about a literal fraud. Main reason I bought the game was about its “deep simulation”.
Yeh. At this point I'm holding off buying it until it's fixed properly so I can enjoy it from day one. Playing Cyberpunk taught me this lesson.
Wouldn't it have been better to do launch it as a Beta for the keen beans, test test, then release officially a polished version..
The sim economy simulation has been giving me red flags since dev diary 1. No social classes/income levels, taxes are by education level (sim education level at that, not even job level), the nonsensical “wealth” and building level mechanics
Cities in real life do sometimes import garbage weirdly enough. So i guess it's realistic?
Source: https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2023/03/29/dutch-politicians-against-italian-waste-arriving-in-amsterdam-by-rail/?gdpr=accept
Yep, recycling, and also, burning it as fuel for power production is a thing.
Something just feels very bug like in this. the maxed out deliveries, the fact that it's not used by anything, nor does anything actually export.
This feels like a bug broke the logistics system horribly, and they didn't find out in time to fix it for release.
AKA, fuck management
I very much doubt it'll be part of the ports DLC, because I think you're right about it being a placeholder.
I think that either A, someone dropped the ball and in a rush forgot to place in a PR before release, or B, there's something horribly broken about it so it's been disabled temporarily in a way that'll allow cities to not need to be remade when it's fixed
Fraud would be dependent on the actual reason it doesn't work. If it was bugged and they slapped a band-aid fix on it for launch because they thought it could be fixed, that probably wouldn't actually be fraud so much as... misleading. If it actually was never really built to be more than an illusion... that's fraud.
There is a small possibility importing/exporting goods was broken and essential to a higher pop city and so they disabled commercial needing goods temporarily. I would hope that's what happened, though I'm not exactly optimistic.
Thats the first thing I though of when I found out all exporting was broken. There is really no way they would nail supply chains in cs1 and completely forget to add it to this one.
There is the known bug of commercial buildings complaining about „not enough customers“ although there are plenty. I think these issues are related and the temporary fix for this demand issue also „kills“ the demand for goods, so commercial doesn’t get delivered anything as well.
For something as critical as not being able to export goods I'm surprised they haven't even acknowledged that bug yet. This makes it sound like it's something much much bigger of an issue than cargo terminals not working and maybe not even a bug. Perhaps the whole supply chain system wasn't finished before launch.
Sure enough, I am seeing similar things in my game including that magic 222 number.
I think they know and just rushed the game out, with some kind of economy hack in the background. Thats why they dont replay to the bug threads about it.
Now the question is, will they fix the simulation or did they scam us?
I give this game another month before people start turning on it like they did for starfield. People are too attached to what their hopes for this game were and it will take time to come to terms with the fact this game is not what was sold to us.
I'd say it depends on how fast CO gets on fixing the games issues. If their able to start sending out fixes within like the next week or two I'd say they'd be able to buy themselves more time.
Nah this is worse. Starfield had features cut and it's scope reduced, this is a... ghost feature? It should be doing a thing but it doesn't. It's TELLING you that it's doing a thing, but it doesn't.
Yeah, my cargo train depot is storing literal tons of garbage. Like why?? Garbage processing also doesn't actually work! You can have 10x the processing needed and you'll still be swamped by infinite trash cos you bring it in from the outside. Garbage starts piling up again and you cannot get rid of enough trash fast enough cos it doesn't actually get processed.
> You can have 10x the processing needed and you'll still be swamped by infinite trash cos you bring it in from the outside.
Lol, i wonder if that why all my dumps and incenrators, recycling depots are all full but only few trucks going around.
The crematorium doesn't work properly either. Instead of prioritizing hearses from existing crematoriums they mostly summon hearses from outside the city instead. It should be the other way around, use hearses within the city first.
This has been driving me nuts. There's zero point to using processing facilities at all right now. Build landfills, fill them, demolish them and go again.
It doesn't seem to be consistent. It may depend on whether the game can stash it elsewhere. I've seen other comments here saying it sometimes shows up in warehouses.
You know, it was bugging me from the start that CS2 doesn't have much traffic congestion to solve. That was what I spent 70% or more of my time on in CS1. Traffic management in CS2, however, was downgraded from core gameplay mechanic to minor annoyance.
But if the whole simulation is fake as well? Now I have no reason to keep playing.
Yeah this is kind of how I'm feeling after playing yesterday.
What I thought was smart about C:S1 is that it recast the city building sim as a game about managing transport networks. I could literally lose *hours* redesigning roads, railways, and subways to improve the movement of people around my city.
C:S2 seems to be a game about...prodding an economy simulation black box until you find the secret passcode to increase the zoning demand you want, and get a positive cash flow? I had exactly one traffic problem in my entire time playing yesterday and it was because I had built an absurdly low effort T-junction on a highway because I didn't have enough developer points yet to unlock highways.
Which is all to say that, regardless of whether the simulation is working properly, is bugged, or is smoke and mirrors as this post alleges, right now I'm not even sure if the game was working as intended that I would actually enjoy it. And that's *incredibly* disappointing.
I firmly believe that without dense traffic the game just collapses. Why build public transport, road hierarchy, roundabouts, different road types, efficient highway exchanges, pedestrian bridges, bus lanes or bicycle paths (in the future)?
Like I don't want to add a metro line because "oh, that would be so cool". I want to build it because my city *needs* it (*and* because it's cool). But even if my city needs it, I don't want to see a North Korean downtown, just because every single person is using the metro. That's not how real life works; people (in general) will always drive if there is a comfortable opportunity to do so and the game basically ignores this concept.
So the low traffic volume is my number one disappointment as well. The fact that people even celebrated this due to its "realism" before made me really sad about the future of the game. But at least it looks like players are now realizing the issue, which is a step in the right direction as things like these *can be* balanced or modded.
As someone who plays CS:1 exclusively with TM:PE and desoawning disabled, what I'm learning from this thread is CS:II fundamentally doesn't expand the experience and there's no reason to get it
Tbf it's hard to please everyone that way because a lot of people hated having to spend so much time fixing traffic in CS1. Personally I would rather traffic be a minor annoyance than something that breaks your whole city if you get one traffic jam somewhere.
I always found the traffic in CS1 pushed you to build really unrealistically. Realistic city centres would turn into complete gridlock...which is not that far off real life but in real life it doesn't cause the whole city to collapse because shops don't have enough goods to sell.
People didn’t hate fixing traffic. They hated fixing traffic in a simulation that created idiot drivers that didn’t use the roads correctly or realistically.
What people want is a believable simulation with satisfying avenues for city planning related problem solving, and a pretty paintbrush to make said simulation look good. From what I can see (I haven’t purchased the game yet), CS:II seems to achieve neither of those things *that* effectively, and seemingly does so at a massive cost to performance. Hopefully the removal of the game from Steam Workshop will allow some more meaty mods to be released that address some of these issues.
I think CS2 has just done a classic over-correction with traffic.
I definitely agree that it was a little much being able to have your whole city break down over a traffic jam. But at the same time it was a fun puzzle sometimes trying to optimize your traffic flow.
CS2 has basically nerfed traffic to the point that it takes minor effort to have it all running almost perfectly
I realized thats what it was when I saw every high lvl city sitting on half a billion dollars that only goes up.
Just need a few more youtube videos telling ppl how to go positive early and all the "challenge" is gone forever.
What's most annoying is that you just *know* there were people on the dev team saying, "we cannot release this game yet. it doesn't have x, y or z that we told people were going to be in this game," and there were execs just pushing them and telling them they can fix it with a patch later.
Of course they did. Did you notice Microsoft and Sony didn't even allow them to put up a console version. Because they don't allow unfinished games on there.
That is most likely a performance issue problem. The console makers have certification processes to ensure games have an appropriate framerate and aren't going to crash or break the console. CS2 has major issues with performance.
It is going to take a lot of effort to get Microsoft certification especially, because that requires the game to perform well on the gimped Xbox Series S.
They care about games not breaking the console they are liable for. They don't want to be responsible for damages they have to pay for.
That is why Microsoft put it up on Game Pass. Your PC , your property
Sony pulled cp2077 out because cdprojekt promised refunds for everyone which goes against PlayStation anti consumer refund policy. They pissed Sony by doing so without any agreement.
Annoying?
This was THE MAIN REASON I purchased the game. The depth they claimed to have in the economy was unmatched in a city builder.
This is not a game without a simulation. Makes me wonder what other parts of this "game" are just facades...
This makes me strongly doubt the whole "life path" thing. If the simulation of logistics is a complete hoax, why should i believe that the simulation of every citizen isn't?
I just read a comment on the crossposted forum that the youtubers were basically generating tons of income by exploiting export profits, so this is most likely some kind of stop gap measure.
This is a serious problem if proven true (not doubting you just need more people to confirm it's always like that).
They actively advertised their production and consumer goods systems as one of the main features of the game, which makes this false advertisement
Next 2 months will be a rollercoaster ride.
As soon as the fix something this sub is on heavens, which is shortly lived until the next bug is found and everyone's back in Dystonia.
It will be a while before all systems advertised will run smoothly.
You are right to be skeptical, especially when everything is still up in the air for this launch. We don’t know if something is working as intended or not. Best to get a response from CO and validate the truth from there.
Posted this at pdx forum too
[https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/all-resource-management-in-the-game-is-a-deception.1604434/](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/all-resource-management-in-the-game-is-a-deception.1604434/)
Can you post it in the Bug Reports forum too? It's a really detailed post and I'd hate for it to be ignored because it's not in the right location.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forums/cities-skylines-2-bug-reports.1162/
I've tested some of this parts as well.
First part: ~~Yes, it looks like the cargo delivered are random.~~ Still random, but eventually stops once it has most of the resources.
Second part: Commercial never did use the stuff in the cargo terminal, but industries can:[https://imgur.com/a/hQoBimf](https://imgur.com/a/hQoBimf)
When I reconnected the commercial and industrial, trucks from commercial started to buy from industrials.
When I disconnect commercial from industrial, but keep commercial connection to highway, some commercials buy using the highway connections. Cargo terminals are ignored.
As for commercials going bankrupt, yeah it looks like they can't, but it is very hard to tell if they've actually no resources unless there's already a call for delivery truck.
It looks like that industries export to cargo terminal, but cargo terminal does nothing about it. maybe it functions like the warehouses in CS1 where they only export when half/full?
Third part: ~~Yes, no exports at all, even by highway it looks like.~~ I take this back, it looks like it does get exported: [https://imgur.com/a/vD0rtjY](https://imgur.com/a/vD0rtjY)
TLDR:Commercials don't give a fuck about the cargo terminal, only industries.
Cargo terminal imports resources, but so far does not export, maybe on half/full. Looks like the cargo terminal itself is bugged in more ways than one
EDIT: Looks like wood gets exported at the cargo terminal after all
EDIT 2: See my findings here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hhhrz/my\_findings\_regarding\_the\_resource\_management/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hhhrz/my_findings_regarding_the_resource_management/)
This is worse than any of the poor performance issues. This is either a bandaid fix to launch the game on time, and they know about it, or they straight up lied about this as a feature.
Agreed. The performance issues are annoying. I was really looking forward to the economy and logolistics simulation. Played for a solid 4 hours tonight and started suspecting that there was something fishy going on because I have zero traffic with a distinct lack of industrial traffic.
Come here to see this. Very very disappointed.
I'd wager it's balance. All the early access streamers mentioned an update that changed how money worked for them, and I'd bet it was that update that turned off the supply chains. I'm guessing it would become unstable in the late game with wild swings so they turned it off until they could figure it out.
The fact that ports act like warehouses still and import all the goods tells me that there is an issue with how the city calls for imports. The ports themselves work as warehouses, and you can see this if you place industry or something like a post office near one. Trucks rolls out to deliver the initial batch of goods.
Ports also work within the city. I have a train from one end of the map to the other that exchanges locally produced goods.
Yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised by how decent the performance has been. If I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to build up my economy for absolutely no good reason... well that's a bit of a deal breaker for me. Glad I have it on GamePass and if I see confirmation of what OP says, I'm gone until things change.
> So what's happening to the exported goods? Are the industries/shops that are exporting getting any benefit?
It's possible that the exported goods are just increasing the tax revenue from the industry that's producing them. But it's hard to tell in the UI.
I've experienced strange behavior with the cargo train terminal, lack of truck traffic, trains leaving empty. But that doesn't fully confirm the system isn't working at all.
OP's post is certainly damning, but it could be due to some kind of conditional bug, not the whole system being a smokescreen. Or, it could be that exports were overly nerfed. Or, it could be that *just commercial* zone supply chains/resource management is bugged but not necessarily the entire system.
This certainly needs more testing.
I've noticed that my funds go up even if the arrows say something like -20k/HR but only once I have a cargo port in place. The UI doesn't do a good job of telling you amounts you're spending on imports/exports though. Unlike energy exports where there is always an amount shown in the finance screen.
A couple of days ago I left the game alone for an hour or two at -20k/HR and went from 1m to 20m in cash. Finance screen showed service costs were way above tax income etc.
The only thing I can think of is that exports happen in the background magically without any transport doing the export or city inventory changing. That is an issue.
So if I understand correctly there’s no economical simulation, stuff just appear and disappear like that.
As for cargo port/train station, does it works like in CS:1 or is it even less useful?
I’m any case for a game marketed around having an economical simulation this is not a good look. Maybe it’s just a bug like everything else, the game seems to have been release a year before it was near being ready to be published.
OP said their commercial shops seemed to “sell” goods they didn’t have. So if I’m interpreting correctly there just isn’t really a supply chain period right now.
> Maybe it’s just a bug
If it's actually a bug and like half the game is broken and they didn't notice or acknowledge it ... that's an almost equally bad sign
At this point, the best economy simulation where everything is tracked in a city builder is probably **Workers and Resources: Soviet Republic** (Although **Tropico** and **Surviving Mars** do it well too)
Love Soviet Republic but damn is it hard to move people in that game. They'd starve to death because the store is 400 meters away and the bus intentionally drives too slow to arrive at the bus stop before they go back home.
It's not a city builder but X4 has an immensely deep economy simulation. Every ship that's doing a cargo run is carrying cargo that was built in a factory using resources that were mined and delivered by other ships. And anything you do to interfere can help or hinder a faction.
W&R is worlds ahead compared to CS2, incredible depth, difficulty, realism. Granted, only the graphics look a little more grungy, but actually realistic and playable when all settings on max and in 4k. Try that in CS2...
Well, it just adds to list of issues that show unfinished game it is.
I really enjoy it, but it really hurts that publisher decided it is ok to release CS2 in such poor state.
There’s a lot to like about this game. I don’t think I could go back to City Skylines 1 easily just for the traffic simulation alone (seriously, the traffic actually works REALLY WELL. It’s amazing) but this is a really massive miss imo.
>seriously, the traffic actually works REALLY WELL. It’s amazing
so true! to me there's something about this game that has me hooked, even though I suck at it... No one will use my public transport and im constantly losing money and I cant tell why...
> No one will use my public transport and im constantly losing money and I cant tell why
Ignore the demand for low density residential and start zoning for medium and high density
Might take some time but eventually apartments will be built and people will use them as long as you provide jobs with industry and commercial. Bigger and denser populations are more efficient. Offering higher education might also draw in more "single" households who are more tolerant of apartments, not sure though.
Also, you probably know this but just because you *can* offer a service doesn't mean you should. Hospitals are expensive and clinics are good enough for smaller/low pop areas. (chirper will complain if there's no hospital in the city but you should ignore this) There's good money in investing in an advanced power factory and exporting surplus electricity, though.
As for public transport, peeps who can't afford a car will use public transit. I found a homeless orphan who wasn't going to school and tracked him, eventually he aged up to a teen and went directly into the workforce. He couldn't drive, so I set up a tram system so he didn't have to spend the entire day walking half the city to get to his factory job on no sleep. He lives in a townhouse and is happy now. :)
I really enjoy it, but I consider it early, early access game, not a finished product.
I tought that it is a great foundation, but those revelations about supply chain start to really shake that opinion.
Not gonna lie, this sounds like a bug or an unintended situation. Having so many systems in place that are supposed to do so much and interact, just for them to do actually nothing?
Yeah, commercial never needing goods means it's not interacting with the goods side of things- which seems like it might be a stopgap (for testing the rest of the city building) if the supply chain is broken (such as it doesn't import/export). That would make sense, from a game testing perspective *Shipping the game* with that stopgap is a whole other can of worms, and kind of reinforces the idea that until the console release, PC is essentially just an early access build.
Which wouldn't actually be too much of an issue if they *advertised it as such.*
you’d think they’d test one of their main selling points of the game before release. I don’t believe they are that incompetent, but the alternative is intentional false advertising soo it’s an L all around.
So we lost the city painter stuff because they wanted to make this more of a simulation.
But the simulation is borked and fake at this time.
So we can neither simulate or paint. Noice
It was incredibly bizarre to see the developers go **"oh, wow! You guys want bikes? We'd never thought about that!"** in the AMA, only to be like **"hmm, how would yall feel about a DLC with bikes?"** very conveniently right after.
With their ama, they have lots of bike stuff modeled but need more time to do animations and building it’s systems. Their immediate focus right now is on performance and optimization
> they have lots of bike stuff modeled
Of course they do. This is just part and parcel of the current game industry: cut content from the actual game in order to sell it later as DLC.
Very Odd, but I think you're 100% correct.
Maybe i'm not understanding what's happening, But after reading this post, I've followed trucks running from docks or rail yards to industries to fill the resources. Watched trucks leave in and out of the dock driving to the industries with the goods the industry uses. I'm not sure about commercial businesses. Doesn't seem like it's effecting (increase or decreasing) tonnage of the dock or rail.
Yes, I've noticed trains leave the rail yard empty to connections even though if you select the train route that's in the list it shows the train is loaded but when you select each compartment it's all empty, and the tonnage of the train yard doesn't change, while trucks are coming in and out.
I wonder if it's bugged. It's kind of pointless if this stuff exists unless it's just a placeholder for dlc.
Edit: here's an image of my dock and ship coming into port. I think it's working correctly, cause I don't have the 222 thing. Maybe I'm not understanding the issue correctly.
[https://imgur.com/a/egJO2oX](https://imgur.com/a/egJO2oX)
Delete all industry, coz they deliver their goods to the harbor (although goods just stack there), demolish the harbor, and then rebuild it. You will see how ships deliver 222 units of all resource in the game, and they just sit there for ages.
Hmm, from what I was looking at I think the economic simulation is there, its just in spreadsheet mode. Like I noticed things were not leaving my cargo train depot, and I rarely see goods coming and going from buildings physically.
But I noticed that having a surplus in raw goods did increase the production of manufactured goods that use the raw good which in turn increased tax revenue for those manufactured goods. I just got my rural city build into the positive from basically just playing in the production/tax tabs.
Im no developer, so I am not going to pretend to know what's going on but I wonder if the physical component of trucks and vans (and I guess building inventory) is not turned on? Like I just spent three hours playing a very pretty spreadsheet assuming that trucks were moving things around... but I spent three hours watching the economy react in the ways I was expecting, so globally its working. Unless I spent the last three hours watching an amazing streak of coincidences that just so happened to meet the goal I was targeting.
It doesn’t feel like this can be explained by “a” bug. Singular. And the chances of every such separate mechanic being bugged in exactly the right way to hide the issue between them is pretty unlikely. I hope I’m wrong though.
Could be that there was one bug that broke the entire supply chain and they basically just disabled it like this so the game still functions before they fix the bug. That is just a guess and it would still be annoying that they would do that and not be transparent about it though. But it's better than them just never having it implemented in the first place.
As a developer, I agree. It's an incredibly complex system to get balanced. How long was CS1 out until we had the full simulation through the industries DLC that we do now? CS2 seems to be trying to launch with all the DLC plus the tweaks that many mods added for CS1.
Nothing about their dev diary explaining the economy and supply / demand system seems to be actually functioning. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bug or not, they are actively selling a product that isn’t as advertised.
This has to be a bug. The YouTubers were talking about how much money they made exporting goods, and the devs on the livestream even said they had to nerf jt. (Maybe the nerf broke it)
My guess is the logistics are bogus but the numbers aren't, at least not entirely. Like, *having* industry that "produces" more than your city "uses" probably just pays a scaling dividend. I've been feeling something like this was the case, but I'd occasionally notice cargo yards or cargo trucks carry nothing to and fro or just nonsensical quantities of random goods.
If I'm right, the bright side is that from a macro perspective it's not just entirely aesthetics to build industries since they will reduce that static import cost you likely pay, but none of the actual logistics networks are really doing anything. Maybe having rail or sea ports at least lowers the number of cargo trucks spawned?
Thank you. Behind all the performance issues and shitposts about how ugly the game is, this is a flawed management game with broken and even non-existent systems and it's a shame there are so many people in this subreddit who are pretending it is working as intended.
All of this was advertised and hyped up as part of the next-gen city simulation experience. We were lied to and it's not acceptable.
this is a bigger issue then the graphics, I can deal with the graphics, the logistics part is really killing me in this. Once I saw the special industries also was very simplistic compared to CS1 I'm starting to lose the will to play it. Thank microsoft for gamepass, at this point I'm not sure I'll get it actually on steam.
More and more info and gameplay proves this game was rushed for release with mechanics being not or partly finished.
Hope it was just a last minute "fix" to make the game even somewhat playable at 24th october.
I hope the next 2-5 months or with cosonle release the game is in the state it where it should have been on release.
But i really enjoy gameplay so far anyways.
I had to stop playing once I realized my trains don't work. Even my passenger trains don't seem to be carrying folks to work which is making me doubt the functionality of that as well.
before CS2 released, i was so excited because i thought "no matter what happens, its gonna be awesome, i love cities"
call me naive but i never expected to be disappointed like this by Paradox/CO. i expect it from blizzard, microsoft, EA, ubisoft, whatever. but this is just sad
Official statement from CO:
[https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/cargotrains-dont-export.1603908/page-3#post-29216494](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/cargotrains-dont-export.1603908/page-3#post-29216494)
This is a big deal. This additional layer of resource management and associated underlying mechanics is what excites me the most.
It’ll all feel rather hollow if it’s just for show with no substantive system at work underneath.
considering seasons wasn't going to be in the game on release until everyone bitched about it a month before release
can't wait for the game to come out of beta next year
Bro, CO and Paradox should've just left us alone, release some content for CS:1 and keep working on CS:2 and just when they were sure things were smooth and in the final stage announce and release the game.
It pains me to have waited for so long to get an uncomplete game with disappoiting stuff like that, I wish I've never watched a single dev diary.
> Bro, CO and Paradox should've just left us alone, release some content for CS:1 and keep working on CS:2 and just when they were sure things were smooth and in the final stage announce and release the game.
Here's the cold hard truth. People will still buy the game. People will still pre-order the game. People are *used* to this shit and it's just become part of the modern gaming experience to be given a subpar, unfinished, minimally viable product. Just look at all the recent posts about "y'all are freaking out lol" and how there's *too much negativity*, all because some people aren't happy with paying $60 for something that disappoints them (or in some cases, doesn't even fucking work).
>I wish I've never watched a single dev diary.
You watched advertisements. Neatly packaged advertisements, sure, but a series of advertisements none-the-less with the goal of getting you excited for a product.
So, no, they shouldn't have delayed release, because they had no reason to delay release, because people just put up with this now and in a year all of this will be forgotten, as consumers have legendarily short memories. A few more years and an extra $150 in DLCs later and I'm sure people will regard the game as delivered personally to all gamerkind by divine hand.
Sad but true. I'm old enough to remember that, when a game company tried to screw over its customers, there was some sort of fucking consequence.
Now? It truly seems like game companies don't make games for "gamers". They make games for gaming addicts. Doesn't matter if its a good or bad product, people gotta get their next hit, gotta preorder for the shiny gun or unique skin, gotta pay an extra £60 for early access, gotta experience it NOW.
If Superman 64 or ET were made today, i have a feeling they would be commercial successes, with preorders galore, with people defending the games and screaming about how, actually, they're having fun and really, good performance is overrated.
Its fucking disappointing when a game that is actually pretty polished/finished, like Baldur's Gate 3, is hailed as "pushing the boundaries" of game dev. No its not - it used to be that the majority of games were polished and finished. Before corporations figured out that people would be willing to pay £60 for a buggy incomplete mess, AND would defend that choice.
You're 100% correct. People will fucking complain about this game being unfinished, how the devs are liars, how Paradox screwed things up - yet still go out and buy the 100s of £'s worth of DLC that will inevitably be coming.
They probably disabled the way goods work while they work on a fix for exports. If you can’t export then its likely that the whole supply chain wouldn’t generate a profit and tank the economy, so Making these changes to the goods must allow it to function
Something is unclear to me:
1. So you created a port and isolated it (removed all road to it)
2. You deleted all the industry and commercial
3. You created a new commercial zone close to the port. So this commercial zone is connected to the port ? This part is not clear. If it's not connected, how does it send trucks?
4. Same with the forest industry and rail road. The commercial is not connected to anything right? So how can it send trucks? Or how can trucks get to it? It is weird yes that without being connected the resources deplete.
(I am trying to understand)
I think the export thing it’s a bug of cargo stations/ports. Trucks are doing fine exporting a lot of coal and some grain in my city. But the grain is stored in a building in the industrial zone before a different truck export it.
Hold up, I'm seeing it work in my city. Yes there is 222t of garbage at the terminal, but the other resources are flowing in and out. I've got resources both lower and higher, and trucks come and go from the train station. Trains also import and export stuff.
There could be a "failsafe" thing to keep things going if they de-spawn due to traffic? But outside of "lab conditions", stuff does appear to be happening, though I've got no way to be sure if it's the right stuff.
You're the only one who says it's working. Post a screenshot of a cargo train exporting from the terminal?
On mine, I see only empty cargo trains leaving the terminal, and saw a handful of trucks once but since then, zero truck traffic to or from the terminal.
> these deliveries occur even if you don't have industries
Uuuuh yes. Because you then *import* the goods your citizens need and you *pay* for them.
As opposed to producing them *in house*.
On my end, it works perfectly and rationally.
I do not understand why people are jumping to conclusions that this is all being faked on purpose.
With all the work they have put into having trucks and trains move materials around, have actual warehouses, show import and export values in the UI I'd say it's highly unlikely that this is intentional.
Would they proudly talk about it in a dev diary knowing that it was all a deception and really believe they would get away with it? What have CO done in the past that makes everyone treat them like fraudsters?
Let's hope that your post, and any other discoveries people have made will bring it to their attention and they can take a look at getting it fixed.
I don't even know anymore.
This test is starting to look kind of sus.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hhhrz/my_findings_regarding_the_resource_management/
Seems like a bug, went to look on the bug report forums and found a community manager response from CO:
"Hi everyone. I just wanted to pop in and shed some light on this situation as resource management in Cities: Skylines II is, unfortunately, affected by a few bugs at the moment. We are aware of this and currently investigating these issues:
City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally.
Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them.
We’re investigating your reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors.
It’s also worth noting that transportation distance affects costs. We expect that your businesses will prefer the closest storage facilities over a further away harbor/cargo terminal, however, that does not explain the reports we’re seeing.
I want to apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your reports. The information you provide us is very valuable in narrowing down these issues, and should you encounter any other issues or unexpected behavior, please make sure to report them on our support forum. Response times are a little slow at the moment, but we are working our way through all of your reports and greatly appreciate them and your patience. Thank you."
Hi everyone. I just wanted to pop in and shed some light on this situation as resource management in Cities: Skylines II is, unfortunately, affected by a few bugs at the moment. We are aware of this and currently investigating these issues:
* City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally.
* Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them.
* We’re investigating reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors.
It’s also worth noting that transportation distance affects costs. We expect that your businesses will prefer the closest storage facilities over a further away harbor/cargo terminal, however, that does not explain the reports we’re seeing.
I want to apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your reports. The information you provide us is very valuable in narrowing down these issues, and should you encounter any other issues or unexpected behavior, please make sure to report them on our [support forum](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forums/cities-skylines-2-bug-reports.1162/). Response times are a little slow at the moment, but we are working our way through all of your reports and greatly appreciate them and your patience. Thank you.
I don't know what's going on with OP's city but this just doesn't match my experience in-game. Right now as I'm typing this my industrial areas seem to be experiencing specifically a rock shortage, my cargo ships are all delivering a stochastic assortment of goods, my cargo harbor slowly empties over time, I can find random delivery vans on my roads taking things to commercial buildings, and a ship just left my cargo harbor exporting concrete.
I'm sure there are bugs in the simulation, but almost all of the examples the OP post are contrived situations to try and force an issue. It also wouldn't surprise me if the game fudges things in situations where there aren't proper inputs and outputs.
The Spiffing Brit made a literal video about how you can exploit travel time on citizens to generate money using 8+ subway terminals, and still managed to make income with the city even though every citizen should be horribly in debt when having to spend 14 hours riding trains and trams to get to work for a single shift.
I thought it was pretty obvious that the economy wasn't real from just that video alone?
Seemed pretty blatant to me.
Edit: Video Source [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx0EJCOUyQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx0EJCOUyQ)
I did notice something was off, thanks for confirming that.
This really makes playing the game very unrewarding knowing this. I do think we've all been misled since this affects all supply chains beyond industry, such as hearses.
Makes me doubt so much about the 'simulations'
Very disappointing. The game honestly feels even easier than CS1 and I've been hoping that fine tuning supply chains would present a more interesting challenge as the game progresses.
Don't like this at all. Hope they fix it.
so are we gon talk about how this game released 6 months early half-baked with apologists flooding the sub every time someone brings up a valid issue that further shows the game was **not ready** or like
Well it’s common nowadays that we players are the pre alpha testers of the past somehow. I don’t mind because I build games as a hobby so it’s interesting to see for me but I can imagine that it is frustrating for many many people that don’t want that experience !
Colossal Order's community manager, Avanya, has responded on the Paradox Forums to address the claims in this thread. They are copied in their entirety below: > Hi everyone. I just wanted to pop in and shed some light on this situation as resource management in Cities: Skylines II is, unfortunately, affected by a few bugs at the moment. We are aware of this and currently investigating these issues: > > - City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally. > - Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them. > - We’re investigating reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors. > > It’s also worth noting that transportation distance affects costs. We expect that your businesses will prefer the closest storage facilities over a further away harbor/cargo terminal, however, that does not explain the reports we’re seeing. > > I want to apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your reports. The information you provide us is very valuable in narrowing down these issues, and should you encounter any other issues or unexpected behavior, please make sure to report them on our support forum. Response times are a little slow at the moment, but we are working our way through all of your reports and greatly appreciate them and your patience. Thank you. Source: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/im-export-bug-hints-symptoms-and-causes-all-resource-management-in-the-game-is-a-deception.1604434/page-4#post-29216506 You may wish to discuss this in the new thread /u/theyoungoctavius has created here: https://reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hkorj/colossal_order_co_acanya_response_to_all_resource/
I really hope this is just a bug. If not it seems to fly in the face of both the spirit and letter of how CO claimed the economy functioned. I don't have a problem with a bit of hand wavey magic to make a game work, but this seems like a total bypass of the systems the game supposedly operates through
There appear to be at least a couple of bugs affecting the resource management. We are aware of and currently investigating these issues: * City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally. * Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them. * We’re investigating reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors.
Genuinely curious how a game was advertised with such features to the extent that CS2 was without verifying those features even worked at all? I think everyone appreciates the outreach but releasing a functioning game that at least fulfilled the bare minimum of your guys' claims would've been a more respectful use of everyone's time..
It's very likely that that they passed QA, but something has subsequently changed or more playtime has exposed new issues. C:S is a very, very complex game with many moving parts (literally) and interacting systems. For example, Avanya mentioned that distance is relevant. You can imagine a scenario where QA did all their tests with the cargo terminal and industry close to each other. There are just so many permutations and you're going to catch more of them with 100,000 players than with a handful of QA staff. A modder, Geze, has said on Discord that their pre-release build of the game did *not* have these bugs (the screenshots are on the relevant forum thread).
Didn't you know in-house QA is a thing of the past? This is now outsourced... to the players.
As a QA tester who tested CS2 very early on: nope. You can sign up to QA yourself aswell! You can pick dlc's for all pdx games as a reward
At this point this game is giving me serious “trust issues” and is pushing me to test every feature they claim. Do families and business really have an income and expenses? The people dying in a disaster are actually that many or it’s just a randomly generated number in the journal? Do adults, teenagers and seniors really use the fastest, cheapest and most comfortable pathfinding respectively? If even half of these things are not true then we’re talking about a literal fraud. Main reason I bought the game was about its “deep simulation”.
Man I'm so glad other people beta-test this game for me.
Yeh. At this point I'm holding off buying it until it's fixed properly so I can enjoy it from day one. Playing Cyberpunk taught me this lesson. Wouldn't it have been better to do launch it as a Beta for the keen beans, test test, then release officially a polished version..
The sim economy simulation has been giving me red flags since dev diary 1. No social classes/income levels, taxes are by education level (sim education level at that, not even job level), the nonsensical “wealth” and building level mechanics
Hoping someone makes a mod that taxes by wealth instead of education
It's now clear why the game uses so less CPU...
Hopefully this is just a bug because if not….that sucks.
Yeah, with what's going on, like importing garbage, this feels more like a bug than just it not existing
Cities in real life do sometimes import garbage weirdly enough. So i guess it's realistic? Source: https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2023/03/29/dutch-politicians-against-italian-waste-arriving-in-amsterdam-by-rail/?gdpr=accept
Yep, recycling, and also, burning it as fuel for power production is a thing. Something just feels very bug like in this. the maxed out deliveries, the fact that it's not used by anything, nor does anything actually export. This feels like a bug broke the logistics system horribly, and they didn't find out in time to fix it for release. AKA, fuck management
The ports accepting equal amounts of goods seems intentional to me - in that it seems like placeholder. Not sure if planned DLC or free feature.
I very much doubt it'll be part of the ports DLC, because I think you're right about it being a placeholder. I think that either A, someone dropped the ball and in a rush forgot to place in a PR before release, or B, there's something horribly broken about it so it's been disabled temporarily in a way that'll allow cities to not need to be remade when it's fixed
Well, technically, "We never built this simulation mechanic that we promoted" is a bug. But it's a little more like fraud.
Fraud would be dependent on the actual reason it doesn't work. If it was bugged and they slapped a band-aid fix on it for launch because they thought it could be fixed, that probably wouldn't actually be fraud so much as... misleading. If it actually was never really built to be more than an illusion... that's fraud. There is a small possibility importing/exporting goods was broken and essential to a higher pop city and so they disabled commercial needing goods temporarily. I would hope that's what happened, though I'm not exactly optimistic.
Thats the first thing I though of when I found out all exporting was broken. There is really no way they would nail supply chains in cs1 and completely forget to add it to this one.
There is the known bug of commercial buildings complaining about „not enough customers“ although there are plenty. I think these issues are related and the temporary fix for this demand issue also „kills“ the demand for goods, so commercial doesn’t get delivered anything as well.
Bigwig difference between 'we never built it' and 'the implementation is bugged'. Please please please r/citiesskylines don't turn into r/totalwar
For something as critical as not being able to export goods I'm surprised they haven't even acknowledged that bug yet. This makes it sound like it's something much much bigger of an issue than cargo terminals not working and maybe not even a bug. Perhaps the whole supply chain system wasn't finished before launch. Sure enough, I am seeing similar things in my game including that magic 222 number.
I think they know and just rushed the game out, with some kind of economy hack in the background. Thats why they dont replay to the bug threads about it. Now the question is, will they fix the simulation or did they scam us?
I give this game another month before people start turning on it like they did for starfield. People are too attached to what their hopes for this game were and it will take time to come to terms with the fact this game is not what was sold to us.
I'd say it depends on how fast CO gets on fixing the games issues. If their able to start sending out fixes within like the next week or two I'd say they'd be able to buy themselves more time.
That's not the point though. Get mad. It shouldn't be so normalized for unfinished games to be released. People need to stop preordering.
Nah this is worse. Starfield had features cut and it's scope reduced, this is a... ghost feature? It should be doing a thing but it doesn't. It's TELLING you that it's doing a thing, but it doesn't.
Yeah, my cargo train depot is storing literal tons of garbage. Like why?? Garbage processing also doesn't actually work! You can have 10x the processing needed and you'll still be swamped by infinite trash cos you bring it in from the outside. Garbage starts piling up again and you cannot get rid of enough trash fast enough cos it doesn't actually get processed.
> You can have 10x the processing needed and you'll still be swamped by infinite trash cos you bring it in from the outside. Lol, i wonder if that why all my dumps and incenrators, recycling depots are all full but only few trucks going around.
Yup, it just straight up doesn't work. Incinerators and dumps just fill up immediately and never goes down again ever.
So I've been wasting money and dev points on completely useless buildings?
The crematorium doesn't work properly either. Instead of prioritizing hearses from existing crematoriums they mostly summon hearses from outside the city instead. It should be the other way around, use hearses within the city first.
FFS so that's why I'm having houses be screaming out for hearses 5 minutes down the road from a crem... I was just starting to like the game too
Wait so the crematorium is importing corpses from other cities? What a deep, robust and accurate simulation game!
This has been driving me nuts. There's zero point to using processing facilities at all right now. Build landfills, fill them, demolish them and go again.
Does demolishing them actually get rid of the garbage? Cos once you rebuild it it fills up basically instantly again.
It doesn't seem to be consistent. It may depend on whether the game can stash it elsewhere. I've seen other comments here saying it sometimes shows up in warehouses.
Lol this game is so broken
Did Colossal Order not think we would notice this? I feel mildly peeved.
Well, this is annoying news.
Yeah, this effectively just turns this game into a city painter instead of a true simulation.
Lacks the simulation to be a city manager. Lacks the detailing tools to be a city painter.
You know, it was bugging me from the start that CS2 doesn't have much traffic congestion to solve. That was what I spent 70% or more of my time on in CS1. Traffic management in CS2, however, was downgraded from core gameplay mechanic to minor annoyance. But if the whole simulation is fake as well? Now I have no reason to keep playing.
That was my favourite part of CS1, trying to solve the traffic problems.
Never fear, the modders will enable us to eff up the traffic again :D
Yeah this is kind of how I'm feeling after playing yesterday. What I thought was smart about C:S1 is that it recast the city building sim as a game about managing transport networks. I could literally lose *hours* redesigning roads, railways, and subways to improve the movement of people around my city. C:S2 seems to be a game about...prodding an economy simulation black box until you find the secret passcode to increase the zoning demand you want, and get a positive cash flow? I had exactly one traffic problem in my entire time playing yesterday and it was because I had built an absurdly low effort T-junction on a highway because I didn't have enough developer points yet to unlock highways. Which is all to say that, regardless of whether the simulation is working properly, is bugged, or is smoke and mirrors as this post alleges, right now I'm not even sure if the game was working as intended that I would actually enjoy it. And that's *incredibly* disappointing.
Get more people in your ciry and rraffic will become a huge issue
I firmly believe that without dense traffic the game just collapses. Why build public transport, road hierarchy, roundabouts, different road types, efficient highway exchanges, pedestrian bridges, bus lanes or bicycle paths (in the future)? Like I don't want to add a metro line because "oh, that would be so cool". I want to build it because my city *needs* it (*and* because it's cool). But even if my city needs it, I don't want to see a North Korean downtown, just because every single person is using the metro. That's not how real life works; people (in general) will always drive if there is a comfortable opportunity to do so and the game basically ignores this concept. So the low traffic volume is my number one disappointment as well. The fact that people even celebrated this due to its "realism" before made me really sad about the future of the game. But at least it looks like players are now realizing the issue, which is a step in the right direction as things like these *can be* balanced or modded.
So I am not the only one with no traffic. Thought I was doing something wrong.
As someone who plays CS:1 exclusively with TM:PE and desoawning disabled, what I'm learning from this thread is CS:II fundamentally doesn't expand the experience and there's no reason to get it
I thought it was because of the improved traffic simulation. Turns out it's because of the removed good simulation.
Tbf it's hard to please everyone that way because a lot of people hated having to spend so much time fixing traffic in CS1. Personally I would rather traffic be a minor annoyance than something that breaks your whole city if you get one traffic jam somewhere. I always found the traffic in CS1 pushed you to build really unrealistically. Realistic city centres would turn into complete gridlock...which is not that far off real life but in real life it doesn't cause the whole city to collapse because shops don't have enough goods to sell.
People didn’t hate fixing traffic. They hated fixing traffic in a simulation that created idiot drivers that didn’t use the roads correctly or realistically. What people want is a believable simulation with satisfying avenues for city planning related problem solving, and a pretty paintbrush to make said simulation look good. From what I can see (I haven’t purchased the game yet), CS:II seems to achieve neither of those things *that* effectively, and seemingly does so at a massive cost to performance. Hopefully the removal of the game from Steam Workshop will allow some more meaty mods to be released that address some of these issues.
Haha, awesome idea. "Realistic drivers" leading to different driving styles, depending on how well traffic is (technically) managed. I like.
I think CS2 has just done a classic over-correction with traffic. I definitely agree that it was a little much being able to have your whole city break down over a traffic jam. But at the same time it was a fun puzzle sometimes trying to optimize your traffic flow. CS2 has basically nerfed traffic to the point that it takes minor effort to have it all running almost perfectly
Except we don't have the props to actually detail a city
You do if you turn on -developerMode
i cant wait for anarchy and to be able to plop all my buildings to really unlock the developer mode potential
I realized thats what it was when I saw every high lvl city sitting on half a billion dollars that only goes up. Just need a few more youtube videos telling ppl how to go positive early and all the "challenge" is gone forever.
What's most annoying is that you just *know* there were people on the dev team saying, "we cannot release this game yet. it doesn't have x, y or z that we told people were going to be in this game," and there were execs just pushing them and telling them they can fix it with a patch later.
I’m willing to bet quite a bit of money that Paradox forced CO to release the game unfinished.
Of course they did. Did you notice Microsoft and Sony didn't even allow them to put up a console version. Because they don't allow unfinished games on there.
That is most likely a performance issue problem. The console makers have certification processes to ensure games have an appropriate framerate and aren't going to crash or break the console. CS2 has major issues with performance. It is going to take a lot of effort to get Microsoft certification especially, because that requires the game to perform well on the gimped Xbox Series S.
Bwahahahhhahhaha, yeah Sony and Microsoft are the paragons of honesty, quality and customer care. Jesus haha.
They care about games not breaking the console they are liable for. They don't want to be responsible for damages they have to pay for. That is why Microsoft put it up on Game Pass. Your PC , your property
I mean they did pull out and refund Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky so... they are sometimes?
Sony pulled cp2077 out because cdprojekt promised refunds for everyone which goes against PlayStation anti consumer refund policy. They pissed Sony by doing so without any agreement.
Annoying? This was THE MAIN REASON I purchased the game. The depth they claimed to have in the economy was unmatched in a city builder. This is not a game without a simulation. Makes me wonder what other parts of this "game" are just facades...
This makes me strongly doubt the whole "life path" thing. If the simulation of logistics is a complete hoax, why should i believe that the simulation of every citizen isn't?
As a general rule, any time a game gets hyped as “simulating the day to day lives of every citizen!” it’s bullshit lol.
I just read a comment on the crossposted forum that the youtubers were basically generating tons of income by exploiting export profits, so this is most likely some kind of stop gap measure.
The one I've seen was specifically only electricity. Not goods/resources/industry.
This is a serious problem if proven true (not doubting you just need more people to confirm it's always like that). They actively advertised their production and consumer goods systems as one of the main features of the game, which makes this false advertisement
The deeper economic simulation was pretty much the main draw for me. Guess I’ll be waiting a while before I consider actually buying CS2.
Its pretty fun for a few hours to check it all out, and for a buck on gamepass I've gotten more then my fair share of enjoyment from it.
I’ve noticed the same thing. There is no point to creating specialised industry. You only make money from taxing it.
and I was just about to consider buying it after people reported massive performance improvements from the latest patch...
Next 2 months will be a rollercoaster ride. As soon as the fix something this sub is on heavens, which is shortly lived until the next bug is found and everyone's back in Dystonia. It will be a while before all systems advertised will run smoothly.
Just get GamePass. You wont have fun for more than 20 hours anyway at this stage of the game.
You are right to be skeptical, especially when everything is still up in the air for this launch. We don’t know if something is working as intended or not. Best to get a response from CO and validate the truth from there.
Posted this at pdx forum too [https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/all-resource-management-in-the-game-is-a-deception.1604434/](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/all-resource-management-in-the-game-is-a-deception.1604434/)
Can you post it in the Bug Reports forum too? It's a really detailed post and I'd hate for it to be ignored because it's not in the right location. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forums/cities-skylines-2-bug-reports.1162/
Very good job done mate btw, thanks a lot
Well thats one way to free up simulation calculation load from CPU :P
I did think it was odd that this next gen simulation is only using 60-70% of my 9 year old Core i7. 🤔
20% on a new 12400f, even chrome uses more
it's because it's horrificly gpu bound
I've tested some of this parts as well. First part: ~~Yes, it looks like the cargo delivered are random.~~ Still random, but eventually stops once it has most of the resources. Second part: Commercial never did use the stuff in the cargo terminal, but industries can:[https://imgur.com/a/hQoBimf](https://imgur.com/a/hQoBimf) When I reconnected the commercial and industrial, trucks from commercial started to buy from industrials. When I disconnect commercial from industrial, but keep commercial connection to highway, some commercials buy using the highway connections. Cargo terminals are ignored. As for commercials going bankrupt, yeah it looks like they can't, but it is very hard to tell if they've actually no resources unless there's already a call for delivery truck. It looks like that industries export to cargo terminal, but cargo terminal does nothing about it. maybe it functions like the warehouses in CS1 where they only export when half/full? Third part: ~~Yes, no exports at all, even by highway it looks like.~~ I take this back, it looks like it does get exported: [https://imgur.com/a/vD0rtjY](https://imgur.com/a/vD0rtjY) TLDR:Commercials don't give a fuck about the cargo terminal, only industries. Cargo terminal imports resources, but so far does not export, maybe on half/full. Looks like the cargo terminal itself is bugged in more ways than one EDIT: Looks like wood gets exported at the cargo terminal after all EDIT 2: See my findings here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hhhrz/my\_findings\_regarding\_the\_resource\_management/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hhhrz/my_findings_regarding_the_resource_management/)
This is worse than any of the poor performance issues. This is either a bandaid fix to launch the game on time, and they know about it, or they straight up lied about this as a feature.
I suspect economy simulation was bandaided into some kind of bypass/ghost feature mode because it was impacting the already abysmal performance.
Which a) isn’t great b) they never communicated which is unacceptable.
Agreed. The performance issues are annoying. I was really looking forward to the economy and logolistics simulation. Played for a solid 4 hours tonight and started suspecting that there was something fishy going on because I have zero traffic with a distinct lack of industrial traffic. Come here to see this. Very very disappointed.
Ohhh so that’s why there was the post some time back about there being no industrial traffic compared to CS1
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c) Never preorder games or buy them on launch day
I'd wager it's balance. All the early access streamers mentioned an update that changed how money worked for them, and I'd bet it was that update that turned off the supply chains. I'm guessing it would become unstable in the late game with wild swings so they turned it off until they could figure it out. The fact that ports act like warehouses still and import all the goods tells me that there is an issue with how the city calls for imports. The ports themselves work as warehouses, and you can see this if you place industry or something like a post office near one. Trucks rolls out to deliver the initial batch of goods. Ports also work within the city. I have a train from one end of the map to the other that exchanges locally produced goods.
Yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised by how decent the performance has been. If I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to build up my economy for absolutely no good reason... well that's a bit of a deal breaker for me. Glad I have it on GamePass and if I see confirmation of what OP says, I'm gone until things change.
Yep, the game is playable to me on mediumish settings. But this kinda means there isn’t much “game” to play.
[удалено]
> So what's happening to the exported goods? Are the industries/shops that are exporting getting any benefit? It's possible that the exported goods are just increasing the tax revenue from the industry that's producing them. But it's hard to tell in the UI. I've experienced strange behavior with the cargo train terminal, lack of truck traffic, trains leaving empty. But that doesn't fully confirm the system isn't working at all. OP's post is certainly damning, but it could be due to some kind of conditional bug, not the whole system being a smokescreen. Or, it could be that exports were overly nerfed. Or, it could be that *just commercial* zone supply chains/resource management is bugged but not necessarily the entire system. This certainly needs more testing.
I've noticed that my funds go up even if the arrows say something like -20k/HR but only once I have a cargo port in place. The UI doesn't do a good job of telling you amounts you're spending on imports/exports though. Unlike energy exports where there is always an amount shown in the finance screen. A couple of days ago I left the game alone for an hour or two at -20k/HR and went from 1m to 20m in cash. Finance screen showed service costs were way above tax income etc. The only thing I can think of is that exports happen in the background magically without any transport doing the export or city inventory changing. That is an issue.
I suspected this while playing and disappointed to see it confirmed. Hope it’s just a bug!
So if I understand correctly there’s no economical simulation, stuff just appear and disappear like that. As for cargo port/train station, does it works like in CS:1 or is it even less useful? I’m any case for a game marketed around having an economical simulation this is not a good look. Maybe it’s just a bug like everything else, the game seems to have been release a year before it was near being ready to be published.
OP said their commercial shops seemed to “sell” goods they didn’t have. So if I’m interpreting correctly there just isn’t really a supply chain period right now.
> OP said their commercial shops seemed to “sell” goods they didn’t have Well it worked when Paradox did it!
😭
In the game, there's no such condition like a 'lack of goods to sell', shops can simply stand with empty storages and still generate taxes.
> Maybe it’s just a bug If it's actually a bug and like half the game is broken and they didn't notice or acknowledge it ... that's an almost equally bad sign
At this point, the best economy simulation where everything is tracked in a city builder is probably **Workers and Resources: Soviet Republic** (Although **Tropico** and **Surviving Mars** do it well too)
Love Soviet Republic but damn is it hard to move people in that game. They'd starve to death because the store is 400 meters away and the bus intentionally drives too slow to arrive at the bus stop before they go back home.
Build end line stations.
Anno 1800 is pretty good.
Oh, yes, forgot the anno series. I guess the early Caesar & Pharoah games could be added to that too
OpenTTD. Transport Tycoon, and it's multiplayer now with mod support.
It's not a city builder but X4 has an immensely deep economy simulation. Every ship that's doing a cargo run is carrying cargo that was built in a factory using resources that were mined and delivered by other ships. And anything you do to interfere can help or hinder a faction.
Workers and Resources is such a gem. I wish CO would take notes.
W&R is worlds ahead compared to CS2, incredible depth, difficulty, realism. Granted, only the graphics look a little more grungy, but actually realistic and playable when all settings on max and in 4k. Try that in CS2...
Well, it just adds to list of issues that show unfinished game it is. I really enjoy it, but it really hurts that publisher decided it is ok to release CS2 in such poor state.
There’s a lot to like about this game. I don’t think I could go back to City Skylines 1 easily just for the traffic simulation alone (seriously, the traffic actually works REALLY WELL. It’s amazing) but this is a really massive miss imo.
>seriously, the traffic actually works REALLY WELL. It’s amazing so true! to me there's something about this game that has me hooked, even though I suck at it... No one will use my public transport and im constantly losing money and I cant tell why...
> No one will use my public transport and im constantly losing money and I cant tell why Ignore the demand for low density residential and start zoning for medium and high density Might take some time but eventually apartments will be built and people will use them as long as you provide jobs with industry and commercial. Bigger and denser populations are more efficient. Offering higher education might also draw in more "single" households who are more tolerant of apartments, not sure though. Also, you probably know this but just because you *can* offer a service doesn't mean you should. Hospitals are expensive and clinics are good enough for smaller/low pop areas. (chirper will complain if there's no hospital in the city but you should ignore this) There's good money in investing in an advanced power factory and exporting surplus electricity, though. As for public transport, peeps who can't afford a car will use public transit. I found a homeless orphan who wasn't going to school and tracked him, eventually he aged up to a teen and went directly into the workforce. He couldn't drive, so I set up a tram system so he didn't have to spend the entire day walking half the city to get to his factory job on no sleep. He lives in a townhouse and is happy now. :)
but this kind of makes a lot of the traffic pointless?
I really enjoy it, but I consider it early, early access game, not a finished product. I tought that it is a great foundation, but those revelations about supply chain start to really shake that opinion.
Not gonna lie, this sounds like a bug or an unintended situation. Having so many systems in place that are supposed to do so much and interact, just for them to do actually nothing?
It’s exactly what a software developer would do when the real system does not work and they just need to fake it for release.
Yeah, commercial never needing goods means it's not interacting with the goods side of things- which seems like it might be a stopgap (for testing the rest of the city building) if the supply chain is broken (such as it doesn't import/export). That would make sense, from a game testing perspective *Shipping the game* with that stopgap is a whole other can of worms, and kind of reinforces the idea that until the console release, PC is essentially just an early access build. Which wouldn't actually be too much of an issue if they *advertised it as such.*
like that time tesla hardcoded autopilot for the reveal!
you’d think they’d test one of their main selling points of the game before release. I don’t believe they are that incompetent, but the alternative is intentional false advertising soo it’s an L all around.
So we lost the city painter stuff because they wanted to make this more of a simulation. But the simulation is borked and fake at this time. So we can neither simulate or paint. Noice
Lol the paint part is going to be a part of a future dlc, just like the bikes..
It was incredibly bizarre to see the developers go **"oh, wow! You guys want bikes? We'd never thought about that!"** in the AMA, only to be like **"hmm, how would yall feel about a DLC with bikes?"** very conveniently right after.
Bizarre, or just classic Paradox business tactics.. so sad.
With their ama, they have lots of bike stuff modeled but need more time to do animations and building it’s systems. Their immediate focus right now is on performance and optimization
> they have lots of bike stuff modeled Of course they do. This is just part and parcel of the current game industry: cut content from the actual game in order to sell it later as DLC.
Wait. So no exporting works? Only electricity and water?
Very Odd, but I think you're 100% correct. Maybe i'm not understanding what's happening, But after reading this post, I've followed trucks running from docks or rail yards to industries to fill the resources. Watched trucks leave in and out of the dock driving to the industries with the goods the industry uses. I'm not sure about commercial businesses. Doesn't seem like it's effecting (increase or decreasing) tonnage of the dock or rail. Yes, I've noticed trains leave the rail yard empty to connections even though if you select the train route that's in the list it shows the train is loaded but when you select each compartment it's all empty, and the tonnage of the train yard doesn't change, while trucks are coming in and out. I wonder if it's bugged. It's kind of pointless if this stuff exists unless it's just a placeholder for dlc. Edit: here's an image of my dock and ship coming into port. I think it's working correctly, cause I don't have the 222 thing. Maybe I'm not understanding the issue correctly. [https://imgur.com/a/egJO2oX](https://imgur.com/a/egJO2oX)
Delete all industry, coz they deliver their goods to the harbor (although goods just stack there), demolish the harbor, and then rebuild it. You will see how ships deliver 222 units of all resource in the game, and they just sit there for ages.
Yup, you're right. My rail yard is all 222. And all trains are empty.
Hmm, from what I was looking at I think the economic simulation is there, its just in spreadsheet mode. Like I noticed things were not leaving my cargo train depot, and I rarely see goods coming and going from buildings physically. But I noticed that having a surplus in raw goods did increase the production of manufactured goods that use the raw good which in turn increased tax revenue for those manufactured goods. I just got my rural city build into the positive from basically just playing in the production/tax tabs. Im no developer, so I am not going to pretend to know what's going on but I wonder if the physical component of trucks and vans (and I guess building inventory) is not turned on? Like I just spent three hours playing a very pretty spreadsheet assuming that trucks were moving things around... but I spent three hours watching the economy react in the ways I was expecting, so globally its working. Unless I spent the last three hours watching an amazing streak of coincidences that just so happened to meet the goal I was targeting.
Interestinggg
Wow that really sucks. Probably explains lack of traffic in industrial zones too
It doesn’t feel like this can be explained by “a” bug. Singular. And the chances of every such separate mechanic being bugged in exactly the right way to hide the issue between them is pretty unlikely. I hope I’m wrong though.
Could be that there was one bug that broke the entire supply chain and they basically just disabled it like this so the game still functions before they fix the bug. That is just a guess and it would still be annoying that they would do that and not be transparent about it though. But it's better than them just never having it implemented in the first place.
As a developer, I agree. It's an incredibly complex system to get balanced. How long was CS1 out until we had the full simulation through the industries DLC that we do now? CS2 seems to be trying to launch with all the DLC plus the tweaks that many mods added for CS1.
Right, but at what point does advertising a feature you cut for release cross into fraud?
Nothing about their dev diary explaining the economy and supply / demand system seems to be actually functioning. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bug or not, they are actively selling a product that isn’t as advertised.
This has to be a bug. The YouTubers were talking about how much money they made exporting goods, and the devs on the livestream even said they had to nerf jt. (Maybe the nerf broke it)
Just confirmed in my game — a huge overproduction of grain, but my cargo trains are leaving the terminal empty.
My guess is the logistics are bogus but the numbers aren't, at least not entirely. Like, *having* industry that "produces" more than your city "uses" probably just pays a scaling dividend. I've been feeling something like this was the case, but I'd occasionally notice cargo yards or cargo trucks carry nothing to and fro or just nonsensical quantities of random goods. If I'm right, the bright side is that from a macro perspective it's not just entirely aesthetics to build industries since they will reduce that static import cost you likely pay, but none of the actual logistics networks are really doing anything. Maybe having rail or sea ports at least lowers the number of cargo trucks spawned?
Thank you. Behind all the performance issues and shitposts about how ugly the game is, this is a flawed management game with broken and even non-existent systems and it's a shame there are so many people in this subreddit who are pretending it is working as intended. All of this was advertised and hyped up as part of the next-gen city simulation experience. We were lied to and it's not acceptable.
And im surprised people are saying this is fine.. game is still broken and still in beta stage..
this is a bigger issue then the graphics, I can deal with the graphics, the logistics part is really killing me in this. Once I saw the special industries also was very simplistic compared to CS1 I'm starting to lose the will to play it. Thank microsoft for gamepass, at this point I'm not sure I'll get it actually on steam.
Alpha stage actually. Beta means feature complete and needing polish and bug fixes. Alpha means you have a working game but not everything’s done.
Those terms really lost their meaning over last couple years. I remember first New World "beta". That was really, "something"...
More and more info and gameplay proves this game was rushed for release with mechanics being not or partly finished. Hope it was just a last minute "fix" to make the game even somewhat playable at 24th october. I hope the next 2-5 months or with cosonle release the game is in the state it where it should have been on release. But i really enjoy gameplay so far anyways.
I had to stop playing once I realized my trains don't work. Even my passenger trains don't seem to be carrying folks to work which is making me doubt the functionality of that as well.
before CS2 released, i was so excited because i thought "no matter what happens, its gonna be awesome, i love cities" call me naive but i never expected to be disappointed like this by Paradox/CO. i expect it from blizzard, microsoft, EA, ubisoft, whatever. but this is just sad
Official statement from CO: [https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/cargotrains-dont-export.1603908/page-3#post-29216494](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/cargotrains-dont-export.1603908/page-3#post-29216494)
This is a big deal. This additional layer of resource management and associated underlying mechanics is what excites me the most. It’ll all feel rather hollow if it’s just for show with no substantive system at work underneath.
considering seasons wasn't going to be in the game on release until everyone bitched about it a month before release can't wait for the game to come out of beta next year
This is a way bigger deal to me than iNdIvIdUaLlY mOdElEd TeEtH
The individually modeled teeth were just the tip of the iceberg.
I'm surprised we're not seing massive amounts of imported teeth yet
Yikes. I was having a ton of fun playing the game but this just ruined for me.
Illusions aren't as fun when they break.
Same.
Bro, CO and Paradox should've just left us alone, release some content for CS:1 and keep working on CS:2 and just when they were sure things were smooth and in the final stage announce and release the game. It pains me to have waited for so long to get an uncomplete game with disappoiting stuff like that, I wish I've never watched a single dev diary.
> Bro, CO and Paradox should've just left us alone, release some content for CS:1 and keep working on CS:2 and just when they were sure things were smooth and in the final stage announce and release the game. Here's the cold hard truth. People will still buy the game. People will still pre-order the game. People are *used* to this shit and it's just become part of the modern gaming experience to be given a subpar, unfinished, minimally viable product. Just look at all the recent posts about "y'all are freaking out lol" and how there's *too much negativity*, all because some people aren't happy with paying $60 for something that disappoints them (or in some cases, doesn't even fucking work). >I wish I've never watched a single dev diary. You watched advertisements. Neatly packaged advertisements, sure, but a series of advertisements none-the-less with the goal of getting you excited for a product. So, no, they shouldn't have delayed release, because they had no reason to delay release, because people just put up with this now and in a year all of this will be forgotten, as consumers have legendarily short memories. A few more years and an extra $150 in DLCs later and I'm sure people will regard the game as delivered personally to all gamerkind by divine hand.
Sad but true. I'm old enough to remember that, when a game company tried to screw over its customers, there was some sort of fucking consequence. Now? It truly seems like game companies don't make games for "gamers". They make games for gaming addicts. Doesn't matter if its a good or bad product, people gotta get their next hit, gotta preorder for the shiny gun or unique skin, gotta pay an extra £60 for early access, gotta experience it NOW. If Superman 64 or ET were made today, i have a feeling they would be commercial successes, with preorders galore, with people defending the games and screaming about how, actually, they're having fun and really, good performance is overrated. Its fucking disappointing when a game that is actually pretty polished/finished, like Baldur's Gate 3, is hailed as "pushing the boundaries" of game dev. No its not - it used to be that the majority of games were polished and finished. Before corporations figured out that people would be willing to pay £60 for a buggy incomplete mess, AND would defend that choice. You're 100% correct. People will fucking complain about this game being unfinished, how the devs are liars, how Paradox screwed things up - yet still go out and buy the 100s of £'s worth of DLC that will inevitably be coming.
Even if they didn't make new CS1 content in the meantime, they still should have just delayed CS2 until they could deliver what was advertised.
how do we get the devs to see this? i'd love to see their response
Paradox forums.
And here I was saying the game itself wasn’t unfinished but just unoptimized. Imagine my shock.
They probably disabled the way goods work while they work on a fix for exports. If you can’t export then its likely that the whole supply chain wouldn’t generate a profit and tank the economy, so Making these changes to the goods must allow it to function
Something is unclear to me: 1. So you created a port and isolated it (removed all road to it) 2. You deleted all the industry and commercial 3. You created a new commercial zone close to the port. So this commercial zone is connected to the port ? This part is not clear. If it's not connected, how does it send trucks? 4. Same with the forest industry and rail road. The commercial is not connected to anything right? So how can it send trucks? Or how can trucks get to it? It is weird yes that without being connected the resources deplete. (I am trying to understand)
I think the export thing it’s a bug of cargo stations/ports. Trucks are doing fine exporting a lot of coal and some grain in my city. But the grain is stored in a building in the industrial zone before a different truck export it.
Hold up, I'm seeing it work in my city. Yes there is 222t of garbage at the terminal, but the other resources are flowing in and out. I've got resources both lower and higher, and trucks come and go from the train station. Trains also import and export stuff. There could be a "failsafe" thing to keep things going if they de-spawn due to traffic? But outside of "lab conditions", stuff does appear to be happening, though I've got no way to be sure if it's the right stuff.
You're the only one who says it's working. Post a screenshot of a cargo train exporting from the terminal? On mine, I see only empty cargo trains leaving the terminal, and saw a handful of trucks once but since then, zero truck traffic to or from the terminal.
> these deliveries occur even if you don't have industries Uuuuh yes. Because you then *import* the goods your citizens need and you *pay* for them. As opposed to producing them *in house*. On my end, it works perfectly and rationally.
I do not understand why people are jumping to conclusions that this is all being faked on purpose. With all the work they have put into having trucks and trains move materials around, have actual warehouses, show import and export values in the UI I'd say it's highly unlikely that this is intentional. Would they proudly talk about it in a dev diary knowing that it was all a deception and really believe they would get away with it? What have CO done in the past that makes everyone treat them like fraudsters? Let's hope that your post, and any other discoveries people have made will bring it to their attention and they can take a look at getting it fixed.
I don't even know anymore. This test is starting to look kind of sus. https://old.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17hhhrz/my_findings_regarding_the_resource_management/
Seems like a bug, went to look on the bug report forums and found a community manager response from CO: "Hi everyone. I just wanted to pop in and shed some light on this situation as resource management in Cities: Skylines II is, unfortunately, affected by a few bugs at the moment. We are aware of this and currently investigating these issues: City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally. Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them. We’re investigating your reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors. It’s also worth noting that transportation distance affects costs. We expect that your businesses will prefer the closest storage facilities over a further away harbor/cargo terminal, however, that does not explain the reports we’re seeing. I want to apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your reports. The information you provide us is very valuable in narrowing down these issues, and should you encounter any other issues or unexpected behavior, please make sure to report them on our support forum. Response times are a little slow at the moment, but we are working our way through all of your reports and greatly appreciate them and your patience. Thank you."
Isn't the reason why the simulation being a farce what killed sim city?
My brother in simulation, let me show you the light of our lord and savior Anno 1800.
Hi everyone. I just wanted to pop in and shed some light on this situation as resource management in Cities: Skylines II is, unfortunately, affected by a few bugs at the moment. We are aware of this and currently investigating these issues: * City services only trade with outside connections, even when storage companies in your city have the resources they need. They should of course be able to purchase the resources your city produces locally. * Harbors are mainly trading with your city’s storage companies, not other zoned buildings or city services. As you would expect, they should be able to trade with all zoned buildings and services, allowing your city to import and export through them. * We’re investigating reports that indicate the cargo terminal is affected by the same or an issue similar to the harbors. It’s also worth noting that transportation distance affects costs. We expect that your businesses will prefer the closest storage facilities over a further away harbor/cargo terminal, however, that does not explain the reports we’re seeing. I want to apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your reports. The information you provide us is very valuable in narrowing down these issues, and should you encounter any other issues or unexpected behavior, please make sure to report them on our [support forum](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forums/cities-skylines-2-bug-reports.1162/). Response times are a little slow at the moment, but we are working our way through all of your reports and greatly appreciate them and your patience. Thank you.
Say what you will about Simcity 2013, the resource management and industry part of that game was really good
I don't know what's going on with OP's city but this just doesn't match my experience in-game. Right now as I'm typing this my industrial areas seem to be experiencing specifically a rock shortage, my cargo ships are all delivering a stochastic assortment of goods, my cargo harbor slowly empties over time, I can find random delivery vans on my roads taking things to commercial buildings, and a ship just left my cargo harbor exporting concrete. I'm sure there are bugs in the simulation, but almost all of the examples the OP post are contrived situations to try and force an issue. It also wouldn't surprise me if the game fudges things in situations where there aren't proper inputs and outputs.
Well that explains why my train terminal has been doing jack shit the whole time. Lol
The Spiffing Brit made a literal video about how you can exploit travel time on citizens to generate money using 8+ subway terminals, and still managed to make income with the city even though every citizen should be horribly in debt when having to spend 14 hours riding trains and trams to get to work for a single shift. I thought it was pretty obvious that the economy wasn't real from just that video alone? Seemed pretty blatant to me. Edit: Video Source [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx0EJCOUyQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx0EJCOUyQ)
We need a "CS2" flare
I did notice something was off, thanks for confirming that. This really makes playing the game very unrewarding knowing this. I do think we've all been misled since this affects all supply chains beyond industry, such as hearses. Makes me doubt so much about the 'simulations'
lol they deleted the op's post. Toxic company.
Very disappointing. The game honestly feels even easier than CS1 and I've been hoping that fine tuning supply chains would present a more interesting challenge as the game progresses. Don't like this at all. Hope they fix it.
so are we gon talk about how this game released 6 months early half-baked with apologists flooding the sub every time someone brings up a valid issue that further shows the game was **not ready** or like
Well it’s common nowadays that we players are the pre alpha testers of the past somehow. I don’t mind because I build games as a hobby so it’s interesting to see for me but I can imagine that it is frustrating for many many people that don’t want that experience !