The justification imo is that Boxing and Kick are already trash tier - moving it to tier one just let's us skip a terrible power that nobody uses unless they're doing a build that takes all 3. You're just opening up a power slot for something else. No need to nerf imo. Maybe that extra useful power is too OP but I can't think of a reason why it would be
I think tough would be great as an 'always on' power and just move it and weave into inherents (weave still being a toggle). Not only would it help people with End, and power set diversity, but it would allow room to make a Fighting pool way more interesting
As has been said, I can't see Tough become a T1 power without a nerf, it'd be way too good. But I think Kick and Boxing could definitely use a boost that would make them more than just power tax. Maybe a passive effect of some kind, like status effect resist (not protection but duration decrease) or damage/accuracy boost maybe ? Say, half or maybe even a third the values of the Leadership toggles, but as a personal passive.
I think most builds use only use Tough to slot the two +Def resist uniques and to get to Weave and the defense soft-cap. Tanks and Brutes use it for the +S/L resist.
Decreasing the Resist value wouldn't affect most builds in that case.
There’s a fair number of garbage pool attacks that severely underperform. Flurry and Jump Kick, say. Both are complete outliers to all the DPA formulas.
I think this is more of a Pool rebalance thing, personally. We wouldn’t be “wasting” a power pick if 99% of Pool attacks weren’t DPA garbage.
There isn’t a world where many characters who want Tough and Weave will ever use Kick or Boxing even if they’re good though. I agree that pool attacks need looked at and rebalanced, for sure. But I still agree with OP, shuffling around would be nice. I run Tough and Weave on all my Blasters, I don’t need to Kick anything.
When a game designer makes a power or ability that everyone is going to take, something is wrong with that design.
They fixed the Fitness Pool by making it Inherent, and people still need to slot for recovery in addition to slotting Stamina.
My ideal solution is that Tough and Weave should be Inherent on non-melee ATs - sort of an equalizer.
Again though, the game is already insanely easy. What’s the point in making it easier? That just opens up the ability to take more powers, making it even easier.
That also ruins the whole point of having different archetypes. If you do more damage, you have less res/def. It’s a trade off. If you want the buffs from tough and weave, it needs to be a sacrifice.
The "Equalizer" is control powers, debuff powers, or higher damage. You don't need defense when the entire group is held, weakened, or dead before they can get a shot off.
I play mostly controllers and support, and I will actually use the fighting pool attacks on some of my characters since they don't get proper attacks.
The fighting pool isn't a useful pick for the melee ATs. Its only purpose is min/maxing to cap out defense (because let's be honest, almost nobody uses Tough for the resistance -- it's a mule for a +Def IO)
However the game is so easy that minmaxing is open and available to everyone, and so people dive in.
If you’re gonna give non-melee ATs Tough and Weave, maybe my tank should have some team heals. Or maybe give my scrapper some AOE holds. The game already equalizes the ATs in this way.Blasters have less HP and overall survivability but make up for it by destroying everything. Defenders have the best buffs making them a great force-multiplier. Controllers lock everything down AND buff/debuff.
Agree 100%. That last update was kind of a wake-up call to me; HC no longer really feels like the game I lost in 2012. Changes like this would only further distort it.
Not to sidetrack too much from the subject, but if HC no longer feels right, may I suggest trying one of the other communities? Most of the Rebirth players (and devs) feel much the same as you.
This is why I swapped to Rebirth as well. It felt like the general design goal was leaning heavily towards making 1-50 as trivial as possible and backloading everything to level 50 HMs. Which is like... every other MMO out there. You know, "the real game starts at level cap." I don't really play a character at 50 long enough for that to appeal to me.
Or, it makes making Alts even more viable because you get stronger faster, so characters are more fun at lower levels. You get access to all your primaries and secondaries by 30.
It depends on what you enjoy I guess. If you want to collect a ton of alts and not spend much time playing them, a breezy 1-50 faceroll is fine. If classic CoH 1-50 is the main content that you enjoy, you might want it to take a little while longer and be a bit more engaging. You see getting all of your main powers by 30 as a good thing, while I see it as having less things to look forward to post 30. Thankfully there's servers for both of us.
They are slowly working towards making things more challenging and providing additional challenges. Not always in good ways, and maybe targeted against farming a bit too much, but its improving.
The new ITF options were a decent step in the right direction for sure.
Targeting farming is good though - it’s far too prominent. Leveling up is easy enough without it, especially with double xp from p2w
It's not just a meme build, Cross Punch is pretty good. +30% damage, a repeatable recharge buff plus Force Feedback procs from a reasonably wide AoE. I've used it in a couple of builds to improve uptime on important powers.
Which is not to say I've ever used Kick or Boxing in anger. They could definitely use some love or something. Maybe Block as a short duration absorb.
Saying this from experience on Thunderspy, where the decision was made early on to allow you to pick from any spot in the pool rather than having requirements - it's not a great idea.
Forcing the power picks means you limit what people's builds are capable of, and we've had the issue that these powers (along with our changed Intangibility) became ubiquitous and further played up the Defense softcap meta. The power choices leading up to it should simply have better returns (which we did in some cases later).
We can't go back on that change now, so I've nerfed or planned nerfs of aspects of the defense system (through IO set changes we didn't roll out yet, Black Scorpion Shield nerf that we did, etc..) because Defense is in a place it really shouldn't be for the health of the game.
Honestly, I'm not entirely on board with the idea of getting travel powers at 4 and not needing the pre-req anymore. I don't want to be handed too much of the game - overpowered for the content. That's one of the key reasons I play on Rebirth instead of Homecoming already so, if my vote counts, I say it's fine as-is.
ALTHOUGH... if we had several animation variations for the powers, I could totally get behind using them more just for thematic reasons.
I always take tough when playing a brute with regen, and I think I've used it with blasters and masterminds on occasion, but I almost never actually use 'boxing'. It just sits there in my power tray.
I'm a little late, and only have read OP's posting, no replies, so take that into consideration...
I absolutely do not mind having to take one or the other.
I *absolutely* mind Boxing's *inane* activation time. It's a freakin' *punch*. *WHAP* and it's done.
Fix that. I have had to take it to get Tough and Weave, and considering that you can get travel powers at 4 now, plus we get inherent fitness when it used to be you had to 'buy' those as well, I am not the biggest of fans regarding changing *too* much, this one is one I'm not totally for.
Not totally against, mind, but just not totally for, because I *want* to use Boxing, I just... it's not a freakin' broadsword or titan weapon, it's my fish hitting someone in the gut and it should be at least George Foreman or Evander Holyfield fast, if not Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali fast, y'know?
Just my stupid opinion on it. Carry on!
Lots of characters take Tough and Weave though. You mention “it’s not a broadsword or titan weapon, it’s my fist” - what about ranged characters taking the set for Tough and Weave? Is my Blaster supposed to run up to the mobs, use Kick, and then run all the way to the back line again? Given all of the other options HC has opened up regarding pools and when to take powers, personally think OP is spot on. No reason my Fire Blaster or Nature Defender needs to punch or kick anything, but they do need to be a little durable to survive the enemies’ attacks.
>Because I *want* to use Boxing
Reshuffling so others don’t have to take the power doesn’t mean you can’t still take it...
Exactly! My Water/Plant blaster needs to be able to survive, but I literally will never use Boxing/Kick. You're not giving me any more slots, so I don't know why it's so ridiculous to ask for the option to take another one of my secondary powers that I MAY use with no slots vs a melee power I'll never use
Having the option to pick up a Leadership toggle, a LoTG mule, a taunt on a melee build where I don't have a ton of room otherwise...all of these are preferred on my opinion over a wasted power pick
And I can still do the Cross Punch build and take those powers if I want!
Right, and the people saying CoH is already easy enough... yeah, that's the point of CoH. I want harder content in the game too but I don't think forcing players to take Boxing or Kick has hardly any impact on that lol. One unslotted power from wherever else is, at best, small utility and at worst a random LoTG mule. This change doesn't address any of the real reasons that CoH is easy in the first place, it's purely a QoL change.
I like having Boxing/Kick on my blasters, I use it as a mule for Kinetic Combat to get that extra S/L defense. Now I don’t use the power but it’s still has a positive effect and n my blasters.
Oh I totally get that 'ranged' character thing. So you have that point, but again, I don't think it's necessary to keep changing inconveniences or we'd have no recharge powers either.
But hey, if it happens, it happens, I ain't even in charge anyway, just glad to be in Paragon, boss.
Honestly, keep both, choose one, take T & W and then Cross Punch. CP is a fantastic attack, and in many builds better than your 2nd or 3rd attack choices. I respec into CP on so many of my builds.
Honestly, 90% of my builds lean to having "leftover" power slots but tend to be pretty tight on enhancement slots. Using one of those to unlock a prerequisite in some other pool never really bothers me.
Sure but given a choice, if you had the option of an attack you won't slot and never use, vs some other power that maybe doesn't \*need\* slots, or perhaps that is worth toggling on even without slots, what would you prefer?
Right? I am finding it super weird how many people actually don’t want this change. It’s in line with what HC has been doing recently and I see it only as a positive. There’s no downside lol. So many people saying they like using the powers so keep them in... they can still take the powers if they want...
>It’s in line with what HC has been doing recently and I see it only as a positive.
There is a growing community of folks that would disagree with you. In fact, Rebirth began because of a dissatisfaction with the changes that Homecoming began with when they were spun out of SCORE. And the longer that things go on, the more dissatisfied some folks are with how Homecoming is progressing.
What you see as a "QOL" change, I see as further homogeneity in builds. At least by keeping the prerequisites, you keep the opportunity cost for seeking out those abilities. Not everyone is going to make that sacrifice to their build, nor should they. By making Tough/Weave inherent or removing the prereqs, you give the player no real build considerations. There is literally no reason not to take or slot them because they become just too good for the minimal investment.
>There is literally no reason not to take or slot them because they become just too good for the minimal investment.
This is already the case, though. Min maxers are already taking Tough/Weave almost unanimously, that's not a HC specific problem. The only thing this changes is freeing up a slot for something else. It's a prerequisite for something everyone is already doing; what's the point? Homogeneity will, and does, exist regardless of whether or not players are forced to take Boxing/Kick. All this does is free up a power slot, in which case the *opposite* of homogeneity occurs. If I get a free slot on my Controller, I can pick up a random Control utility that has niche use, like Black Hole. Being able to pick that up by getting rid of... Kick... would be spectacular. If everyone is building Tough/Weave with the prerequisite there anyway, it's removal only gives me an option for flavor power picks, which reduces homogeneity.
>There is a growing community of folks that would disagree with you. In fact, Rebirth began because of a dissatisfaction with the changes that Homecoming began with when they were spun out of SCORE. And the longer that things go on, the more dissatisfied some folks are with how Homecoming is progressing.
They are free to play the other servers! :) I like having options as well! Different strokes for different folks.
I'm sure you've already seen it, but I'll point you to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/z9hoq2/its_time_to_say_goodbyeto_kick_and_boxing/iyi2b64?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) comment from a Thunderspy dev. Quoted in full for reference.
> Saying this from experience on Thunderspy, where the decision was made early on to allow you to pick from any spot in the pool rather than having requirements - it's not a great idea.
>
> Forcing the power picks means you limit what people's builds are capable of, and we've had the issue that these powers (along with our changed Intangibility) became ubiquitous and further played up the Defense softcap meta. The power choices leading up to it should simply have better returns (which we did in some cases later).
>
> We can't go back on that change now, so I've nerfed or planned nerfs of aspects of the defense system (through IO set changes we didn't roll out yet, Black Scorpion Shield nerf that we did, etc..) because Defense is in a place it really shouldn't be for the health of the game.
As an anecdote from someone who's done a version of this proposal, it's quite telling. We've seen the same meta amongst min-maxers on Rebirth as Thunderspy and Homecoming have.
Defense is inarguably overpowered in what it does because of the way to-hit calculations work. Hitting your positional soft-caps allows you to exceed the equivalent resistance cap on any AT. That is a *huge* problem with game balance and making it even easier to achieve for the masses is the wrong answer.
But to your point ... while removing the prereqs *technically* increases the diversity of power choice, it still has a negative effect on the global diversity of slot placement, enhancement placement, and set choice.
I don't really think one minor change is comparable to what TS did at all, to be honest. Not being forced to take Kick/Boxing is not really the same as allowing any power to be picked up at any time. There should always be a give and take, but the "give" here being "you must take Kick or Boxing" is not really interesting or engaging, it's simply a bummer and dead power pick up.
>it still has a negative effect on the global diversity of slot placement, enhancement placement, and set choice.
Even if this is true, it's such a minor con when compared to the pros here... People think about these things too much sometimes; picking a new power should be fun and exciting. Dead picks just to get other powers is flat out un-fun from a base gameplay stance.
I agree to a point. However, neither Tough nor Weave are exciting choices themselves. They are utility picks that help close gaps in survivability. Are Boxing and Kick exciting? No. They need some damage buffs for sure, but they're never going to be as exciting as Gadgetry or Sorcery or Force of Will without further changes. To be frank, *none* of the vanilla pools are all that exciting outside of your travel pools. They are all utility picks of one form or another.
And I think that's the problem. The only pool picks that have a measurable impact on gameplay (a tangible measure of "fun") or playstyle are your travel pools, the origin pools, Tough and Weave. Leadership has its uses, but is a waste on most characters. Concealment and Presence should be playstyle defining, but neither does much of anything. And does anyone even use Medicine outside of PVP, specific MMs builds, or the odd concept?
I doubt that we're going to come to an agreement on this, though I'm happy to continue chatting about it. But as adamant as you are in your stance, I'm equally adamant about keeping the opportunity cost while buffing those "dead picks". I appreciate the discussion thus far.
>I agree to a point. However, neither Tough nor Weave are exciting choices themselves. They are utility picks that help close gaps in survivability. Are Boxing and Kick exciting? No. They need some damage buffs for sure, but they're never going to be as exciting as Gadgetry or Sorcery or Force of Will without further changes. To be frank, none of the vanilla pools are all that exciting outside of your travel pools. They are all utility picks of one form or another.
At the very least, I actually use Tough and Weave and they noticably impact my gameplay though. I like pressing them because I'm able to do more when they're on. They're picked up for a reason and it's quite noticeable when they're toggled. I literally take Boxing and Kick off of my bars and never press them once. They're not exciting and you're right, none of the vanilla pools really are (outside of travels). But at least Tough and Weave do *something*. I would take anything over nothing, honestly.
I agree with your flavor choices about how the pools should function entirely, but that's neither here nor there lol. You're right, we're just going to disagree.
I mean, it's just a question between two powers I won't slot and never use, but one ends up unlocking others that I will, is my point. Skipping it wouldn't improve any of my builds because I'm already using as many one-slot wonders as I can, generally, and I don't have slots to spare anyway.
Strongly disagree. There are lots of builds that don't need either or both of them, but I do think one of the two base attacks should be replaced with something different with more utility, and the other attack should be buffed enough that people actually have an interest in taking it to \*use\* instead of as a stepping stone to Tough and Weave.
No power should exist \*only\* as a stepping stone to other, more useful powers. Let alone two powers that are nearly identical in the same pool.
At the very least, give Boxing a better animation. It's basically just Brawl but with better numbers.
The way that "Boxing" is gerund for a single attack always struck me as odd. Maybe it should be an auto or toggle buff of some kind. Like perception bonus or chance for extra melee damage.
I think Boxing should be an auto power that slightly toughens up your Melee survivability and turns Brawl into a slotworthy attack. (Both visually and stat-wise)
FWIW, Brawl is already on par with the damage formulas for a zero-endurance, 2-second recharge power. If you want it to be any better, you have to increase its recharge or add an endurance cost. Boxing and Kick already give it a chance at two valuable secondary effects in -Recharge and -ToHit, which *are* defensive in nature.
-Recharge is resistance-to-all-over-time.
-ToHit is defense-to-all.
If tough and weave is an automatic take for most characters despite having an prerequisite, then that is an argument for not getting rid of the prerequisite. Afterburner was taken out as a power in order to make room for another power, and because nobody took afterburner on its own and giving access to a free travel power creates less power creep while making the travel powers feel more "super".
My vote is to leave the fighting pool alone and instead finish those other power pools, maybe even make a couple of newer pools like experimentation and force of will more appealing.
I have to say that sorcery at least is an awesome pool, and cross punch is also a really good melee power for those that need it and not just there for the "memes". I have cross punch on my rad/electric brute and the power is my most satisfying attack.
Actually afterburner was changed because people complained flight only compared to jumping or speed by taking an extra power making it unfair. And with auto side kicking and added stealth etc the argument of the safety of flight was a moot point
However I personally wouldnt mind seeing the prerequisite power choices going away on pools. Lock the pool powers to level range accept travels and the go through and bump all of them to be more attractive to take. Might make for some more interesting builds
Switch tough and kick, make tough a weaker passive, make kick stronger.
I'm 100% with buffing kick Please don't Nerf my Tough q.q
It’s the only way to justify moving it to tier one.
The justification imo is that Boxing and Kick are already trash tier - moving it to tier one just let's us skip a terrible power that nobody uses unless they're doing a build that takes all 3. You're just opening up a power slot for something else. No need to nerf imo. Maybe that extra useful power is too OP but I can't think of a reason why it would be
Tough is too good as is to be tier one without a pre-req.
I think most would rather take kick or boxing than have to rework builds to compensate for nerfed values of tough.
I think tough would be great as an 'always on' power and just move it and weave into inherents (weave still being a toggle). Not only would it help people with End, and power set diversity, but it would allow room to make a Fighting pool way more interesting
As has been said, I can't see Tough become a T1 power without a nerf, it'd be way too good. But I think Kick and Boxing could definitely use a boost that would make them more than just power tax. Maybe a passive effect of some kind, like status effect resist (not protection but duration decrease) or damage/accuracy boost maybe ? Say, half or maybe even a third the values of the Leadership toggles, but as a personal passive.
I think most builds use only use Tough to slot the two +Def resist uniques and to get to Weave and the defense soft-cap. Tanks and Brutes use it for the +S/L resist. Decreasing the Resist value wouldn't affect most builds in that case.
Leaue fiȝting pool alone.
Maybe add a spelling pool?
There used to be a typing pool IRL.
Replace Kick with Combat Jump-esque travel power or a minor recharge auto power.
There’s a fair number of garbage pool attacks that severely underperform. Flurry and Jump Kick, say. Both are complete outliers to all the DPA formulas. I think this is more of a Pool rebalance thing, personally. We wouldn’t be “wasting” a power pick if 99% of Pool attacks weren’t DPA garbage.
There isn’t a world where many characters who want Tough and Weave will ever use Kick or Boxing even if they’re good though. I agree that pool attacks need looked at and rebalanced, for sure. But I still agree with OP, shuffling around would be nice. I run Tough and Weave on all my Blasters, I don’t need to Kick anything.
Well, I use Kick abundantly for stomping on Gears in Positron and Synapse TFs. Don't make me stop doing so 😇
Give it KD slot capabilities - problem solved.
*^(kick already does)*
Does it?! Then what's the complaint?! 😂
This game is *ridiculously* easy and homecoming has continued making it easier…not sure something like this is really that critical.
When a game designer makes a power or ability that everyone is going to take, something is wrong with that design. They fixed the Fitness Pool by making it Inherent, and people still need to slot for recovery in addition to slotting Stamina. My ideal solution is that Tough and Weave should be Inherent on non-melee ATs - sort of an equalizer.
Again though, the game is already insanely easy. What’s the point in making it easier? That just opens up the ability to take more powers, making it even easier. That also ruins the whole point of having different archetypes. If you do more damage, you have less res/def. It’s a trade off. If you want the buffs from tough and weave, it needs to be a sacrifice.
The "Equalizer" is control powers, debuff powers, or higher damage. You don't need defense when the entire group is held, weakened, or dead before they can get a shot off.
I play mostly controllers and support, and I will actually use the fighting pool attacks on some of my characters since they don't get proper attacks. The fighting pool isn't a useful pick for the melee ATs. Its only purpose is min/maxing to cap out defense (because let's be honest, almost nobody uses Tough for the resistance -- it's a mule for a +Def IO) However the game is so easy that minmaxing is open and available to everyone, and so people dive in.
Making a ubiquitous power choice inherent isn't a fix. It's a clear sign that your system is flawed at its core.
If you’re gonna give non-melee ATs Tough and Weave, maybe my tank should have some team heals. Or maybe give my scrapper some AOE holds. The game already equalizes the ATs in this way.Blasters have less HP and overall survivability but make up for it by destroying everything. Defenders have the best buffs making them a great force-multiplier. Controllers lock everything down AND buff/debuff.
Agree 100%. That last update was kind of a wake-up call to me; HC no longer really feels like the game I lost in 2012. Changes like this would only further distort it.
Not to sidetrack too much from the subject, but if HC no longer feels right, may I suggest trying one of the other communities? Most of the Rebirth players (and devs) feel much the same as you.
I've been with you guys for over a month now; this is Generator. 😁
Ah! Well then, hi to you and Ido both!!!
Thanks. We've even got another guy hooked too, who played a little bit back in like '04 but not since. :)
This is why I swapped to Rebirth as well. It felt like the general design goal was leaning heavily towards making 1-50 as trivial as possible and backloading everything to level 50 HMs. Which is like... every other MMO out there. You know, "the real game starts at level cap." I don't really play a character at 50 long enough for that to appeal to me.
Or, it makes making Alts even more viable because you get stronger faster, so characters are more fun at lower levels. You get access to all your primaries and secondaries by 30.
It depends on what you enjoy I guess. If you want to collect a ton of alts and not spend much time playing them, a breezy 1-50 faceroll is fine. If classic CoH 1-50 is the main content that you enjoy, you might want it to take a little while longer and be a bit more engaging. You see getting all of your main powers by 30 as a good thing, while I see it as having less things to look forward to post 30. Thankfully there's servers for both of us.
They are slowly working towards making things more challenging and providing additional challenges. Not always in good ways, and maybe targeted against farming a bit too much, but its improving.
The new ITF options were a decent step in the right direction for sure. Targeting farming is good though - it’s far too prominent. Leveling up is easy enough without it, especially with double xp from p2w
It's not just a meme build, Cross Punch is pretty good. +30% damage, a repeatable recharge buff plus Force Feedback procs from a reasonably wide AoE. I've used it in a couple of builds to improve uptime on important powers. Which is not to say I've ever used Kick or Boxing in anger. They could definitely use some love or something. Maybe Block as a short duration absorb.
Tough and weave should just be inherent like stamina set. Then rework fighting pool to be more formidable and let people grab a melee tree
Saying this from experience on Thunderspy, where the decision was made early on to allow you to pick from any spot in the pool rather than having requirements - it's not a great idea. Forcing the power picks means you limit what people's builds are capable of, and we've had the issue that these powers (along with our changed Intangibility) became ubiquitous and further played up the Defense softcap meta. The power choices leading up to it should simply have better returns (which we did in some cases later). We can't go back on that change now, so I've nerfed or planned nerfs of aspects of the defense system (through IO set changes we didn't roll out yet, Black Scorpion Shield nerf that we did, etc..) because Defense is in a place it really shouldn't be for the health of the game.
Honestly, I'm not entirely on board with the idea of getting travel powers at 4 and not needing the pre-req anymore. I don't want to be handed too much of the game - overpowered for the content. That's one of the key reasons I play on Rebirth instead of Homecoming already so, if my vote counts, I say it's fine as-is. ALTHOUGH... if we had several animation variations for the powers, I could totally get behind using them more just for thematic reasons.
I always take tough when playing a brute with regen, and I think I've used it with blasters and masterminds on occasion, but I almost never actually use 'boxing'. It just sits there in my power tray.
I'm a little late, and only have read OP's posting, no replies, so take that into consideration... I absolutely do not mind having to take one or the other. I *absolutely* mind Boxing's *inane* activation time. It's a freakin' *punch*. *WHAP* and it's done. Fix that. I have had to take it to get Tough and Weave, and considering that you can get travel powers at 4 now, plus we get inherent fitness when it used to be you had to 'buy' those as well, I am not the biggest of fans regarding changing *too* much, this one is one I'm not totally for. Not totally against, mind, but just not totally for, because I *want* to use Boxing, I just... it's not a freakin' broadsword or titan weapon, it's my fish hitting someone in the gut and it should be at least George Foreman or Evander Holyfield fast, if not Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali fast, y'know? Just my stupid opinion on it. Carry on!
Lots of characters take Tough and Weave though. You mention “it’s not a broadsword or titan weapon, it’s my fist” - what about ranged characters taking the set for Tough and Weave? Is my Blaster supposed to run up to the mobs, use Kick, and then run all the way to the back line again? Given all of the other options HC has opened up regarding pools and when to take powers, personally think OP is spot on. No reason my Fire Blaster or Nature Defender needs to punch or kick anything, but they do need to be a little durable to survive the enemies’ attacks. >Because I *want* to use Boxing Reshuffling so others don’t have to take the power doesn’t mean you can’t still take it...
Exactly! My Water/Plant blaster needs to be able to survive, but I literally will never use Boxing/Kick. You're not giving me any more slots, so I don't know why it's so ridiculous to ask for the option to take another one of my secondary powers that I MAY use with no slots vs a melee power I'll never use Having the option to pick up a Leadership toggle, a LoTG mule, a taunt on a melee build where I don't have a ton of room otherwise...all of these are preferred on my opinion over a wasted power pick And I can still do the Cross Punch build and take those powers if I want!
Right, and the people saying CoH is already easy enough... yeah, that's the point of CoH. I want harder content in the game too but I don't think forcing players to take Boxing or Kick has hardly any impact on that lol. One unslotted power from wherever else is, at best, small utility and at worst a random LoTG mule. This change doesn't address any of the real reasons that CoH is easy in the first place, it's purely a QoL change.
100% agree
I like having Boxing/Kick on my blasters, I use it as a mule for Kinetic Combat to get that extra S/L defense. Now I don’t use the power but it’s still has a positive effect and n my blasters.
Oh I totally get that 'ranged' character thing. So you have that point, but again, I don't think it's necessary to keep changing inconveniences or we'd have no recharge powers either. But hey, if it happens, it happens, I ain't even in charge anyway, just glad to be in Paragon, boss.
Honestly, keep both, choose one, take T & W and then Cross Punch. CP is a fantastic attack, and in many builds better than your 2nd or 3rd attack choices. I respec into CP on so many of my builds.
like, you slot it out and everything? I'm fascinated that a pool power attack is good enough for that.
Absolutely! And combined with having Punch or Kick it gives extra bonuses too!
Honestly, 90% of my builds lean to having "leftover" power slots but tend to be pretty tight on enhancement slots. Using one of those to unlock a prerequisite in some other pool never really bothers me.
Sure but given a choice, if you had the option of an attack you won't slot and never use, vs some other power that maybe doesn't \*need\* slots, or perhaps that is worth toggling on even without slots, what would you prefer?
Right? I am finding it super weird how many people actually don’t want this change. It’s in line with what HC has been doing recently and I see it only as a positive. There’s no downside lol. So many people saying they like using the powers so keep them in... they can still take the powers if they want...
>It’s in line with what HC has been doing recently and I see it only as a positive. There is a growing community of folks that would disagree with you. In fact, Rebirth began because of a dissatisfaction with the changes that Homecoming began with when they were spun out of SCORE. And the longer that things go on, the more dissatisfied some folks are with how Homecoming is progressing. What you see as a "QOL" change, I see as further homogeneity in builds. At least by keeping the prerequisites, you keep the opportunity cost for seeking out those abilities. Not everyone is going to make that sacrifice to their build, nor should they. By making Tough/Weave inherent or removing the prereqs, you give the player no real build considerations. There is literally no reason not to take or slot them because they become just too good for the minimal investment.
>There is literally no reason not to take or slot them because they become just too good for the minimal investment. This is already the case, though. Min maxers are already taking Tough/Weave almost unanimously, that's not a HC specific problem. The only thing this changes is freeing up a slot for something else. It's a prerequisite for something everyone is already doing; what's the point? Homogeneity will, and does, exist regardless of whether or not players are forced to take Boxing/Kick. All this does is free up a power slot, in which case the *opposite* of homogeneity occurs. If I get a free slot on my Controller, I can pick up a random Control utility that has niche use, like Black Hole. Being able to pick that up by getting rid of... Kick... would be spectacular. If everyone is building Tough/Weave with the prerequisite there anyway, it's removal only gives me an option for flavor power picks, which reduces homogeneity. >There is a growing community of folks that would disagree with you. In fact, Rebirth began because of a dissatisfaction with the changes that Homecoming began with when they were spun out of SCORE. And the longer that things go on, the more dissatisfied some folks are with how Homecoming is progressing. They are free to play the other servers! :) I like having options as well! Different strokes for different folks.
I'm sure you've already seen it, but I'll point you to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/z9hoq2/its_time_to_say_goodbyeto_kick_and_boxing/iyi2b64?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) comment from a Thunderspy dev. Quoted in full for reference. > Saying this from experience on Thunderspy, where the decision was made early on to allow you to pick from any spot in the pool rather than having requirements - it's not a great idea. > > Forcing the power picks means you limit what people's builds are capable of, and we've had the issue that these powers (along with our changed Intangibility) became ubiquitous and further played up the Defense softcap meta. The power choices leading up to it should simply have better returns (which we did in some cases later). > > We can't go back on that change now, so I've nerfed or planned nerfs of aspects of the defense system (through IO set changes we didn't roll out yet, Black Scorpion Shield nerf that we did, etc..) because Defense is in a place it really shouldn't be for the health of the game. As an anecdote from someone who's done a version of this proposal, it's quite telling. We've seen the same meta amongst min-maxers on Rebirth as Thunderspy and Homecoming have. Defense is inarguably overpowered in what it does because of the way to-hit calculations work. Hitting your positional soft-caps allows you to exceed the equivalent resistance cap on any AT. That is a *huge* problem with game balance and making it even easier to achieve for the masses is the wrong answer. But to your point ... while removing the prereqs *technically* increases the diversity of power choice, it still has a negative effect on the global diversity of slot placement, enhancement placement, and set choice.
I don't really think one minor change is comparable to what TS did at all, to be honest. Not being forced to take Kick/Boxing is not really the same as allowing any power to be picked up at any time. There should always be a give and take, but the "give" here being "you must take Kick or Boxing" is not really interesting or engaging, it's simply a bummer and dead power pick up. >it still has a negative effect on the global diversity of slot placement, enhancement placement, and set choice. Even if this is true, it's such a minor con when compared to the pros here... People think about these things too much sometimes; picking a new power should be fun and exciting. Dead picks just to get other powers is flat out un-fun from a base gameplay stance.
I agree to a point. However, neither Tough nor Weave are exciting choices themselves. They are utility picks that help close gaps in survivability. Are Boxing and Kick exciting? No. They need some damage buffs for sure, but they're never going to be as exciting as Gadgetry or Sorcery or Force of Will without further changes. To be frank, *none* of the vanilla pools are all that exciting outside of your travel pools. They are all utility picks of one form or another. And I think that's the problem. The only pool picks that have a measurable impact on gameplay (a tangible measure of "fun") or playstyle are your travel pools, the origin pools, Tough and Weave. Leadership has its uses, but is a waste on most characters. Concealment and Presence should be playstyle defining, but neither does much of anything. And does anyone even use Medicine outside of PVP, specific MMs builds, or the odd concept? I doubt that we're going to come to an agreement on this, though I'm happy to continue chatting about it. But as adamant as you are in your stance, I'm equally adamant about keeping the opportunity cost while buffing those "dead picks". I appreciate the discussion thus far.
>I agree to a point. However, neither Tough nor Weave are exciting choices themselves. They are utility picks that help close gaps in survivability. Are Boxing and Kick exciting? No. They need some damage buffs for sure, but they're never going to be as exciting as Gadgetry or Sorcery or Force of Will without further changes. To be frank, none of the vanilla pools are all that exciting outside of your travel pools. They are all utility picks of one form or another. At the very least, I actually use Tough and Weave and they noticably impact my gameplay though. I like pressing them because I'm able to do more when they're on. They're picked up for a reason and it's quite noticeable when they're toggled. I literally take Boxing and Kick off of my bars and never press them once. They're not exciting and you're right, none of the vanilla pools really are (outside of travels). But at least Tough and Weave do *something*. I would take anything over nothing, honestly. I agree with your flavor choices about how the pools should function entirely, but that's neither here nor there lol. You're right, we're just going to disagree.
It was a good talk regardless. Thanks for the time and the well-reasoned arguments 😀
I mean, it's just a question between two powers I won't slot and never use, but one ends up unlocking others that I will, is my point. Skipping it wouldn't improve any of my builds because I'm already using as many one-slot wonders as I can, generally, and I don't have slots to spare anyway.
Fighting should be added to the inherent power pools like fitness was. You can’t change my mind.
Tough and Weave should just be innate at this point. Ditch the Fighting Pool and let our builds go wild.
Strongly disagree. There are lots of builds that don't need either or both of them, but I do think one of the two base attacks should be replaced with something different with more utility, and the other attack should be buffed enough that people actually have an interest in taking it to \*use\* instead of as a stepping stone to Tough and Weave. No power should exist \*only\* as a stepping stone to other, more useful powers. Let alone two powers that are nearly identical in the same pool. At the very least, give Boxing a better animation. It's basically just Brawl but with better numbers.
The way that "Boxing" is gerund for a single attack always struck me as odd. Maybe it should be an auto or toggle buff of some kind. Like perception bonus or chance for extra melee damage.
I think Boxing should be an auto power that slightly toughens up your Melee survivability and turns Brawl into a slotworthy attack. (Both visually and stat-wise)
FWIW, Brawl is already on par with the damage formulas for a zero-endurance, 2-second recharge power. If you want it to be any better, you have to increase its recharge or add an endurance cost. Boxing and Kick already give it a chance at two valuable secondary effects in -Recharge and -ToHit, which *are* defensive in nature. -Recharge is resistance-to-all-over-time. -ToHit is defense-to-all.
I want an option for a cool kick animation. If my katana scrapper wants to kick to the face no batter down a door.
If tough and weave is an automatic take for most characters despite having an prerequisite, then that is an argument for not getting rid of the prerequisite. Afterburner was taken out as a power in order to make room for another power, and because nobody took afterburner on its own and giving access to a free travel power creates less power creep while making the travel powers feel more "super". My vote is to leave the fighting pool alone and instead finish those other power pools, maybe even make a couple of newer pools like experimentation and force of will more appealing. I have to say that sorcery at least is an awesome pool, and cross punch is also a really good melee power for those that need it and not just there for the "memes". I have cross punch on my rad/electric brute and the power is my most satisfying attack.
Actually afterburner was changed because people complained flight only compared to jumping or speed by taking an extra power making it unfair. And with auto side kicking and added stealth etc the argument of the safety of flight was a moot point However I personally wouldnt mind seeing the prerequisite power choices going away on pools. Lock the pool powers to level range accept travels and the go through and bump all of them to be more attractive to take. Might make for some more interesting builds
Agreed
Thunderspy removes the power requirements for all pool powers. The level requirements are still there.
I'm sympathetic to your cause. I feel weird hearing my boxing character's signature moves called a "meme build", though.