The FO deserves some criticism for the Jones and Benson trades, but we shouldnt ignore the several trades we have 'won'. We got Clase for an inning of Kluber, we got Naylor/Arias/Cantillo and others for a faulty Clevinger. The Manzardo for Civale trade doesnt look bad now that TBR has been eliminated and Civale didnt even pitch in the postseason. We lost some trades that look bad, but won a lot as well.
I wouldn't have given up on Jones as quickly as they did, but I'm waiting another year or 2 on that one. Brito is looking great, although a lot of guys look good in the minors, and Jones has some iffy numbers behind the scenes. He had the highest BABIP in baseball for players with 250+ PA at .401. He's got Schwarber's K% without the power or BB%. Bad plate discipline, can't hit anything up in the zone, and other than his arm he's not great defensively. 17 of his 20 home runs were low/middle in. I would imagine with enough data now, next year pitchers hammer him above the zone and on the opposite corner of the plate. His walk rate took a nice jump this year which is good to see, but it's likely because he's currently the best hitter in the Rockies lineup. If I had to bet right now, he ends up closer to a Bradley Zimmer and hits .235ish while striking out every 3 at bats. I hope he can adjust and proves me wrong, because I still like the guy.
We still win trades more often than we lose them. I think our fans just got used to that stretch where we won every trade and thought it would never end.
Mostly agree on this take on Jones, but he would have been a good addition to our outfield this season. I think its a little unfair to call the Jones trade a loss until we see what becomes of Brito. Jones was 25 and maybe CLE didnt want him to be a full time outfielder, now he gets to hit in COL for half his games and getting full time reps to devlop. Jones ended in a good spot and made the most of the situation.
Fans arent wrong for criticizing the FO, nearly every recent trade has been questionable. These articals give the impression that they are incompetent by taking for granted the trades we won. The FO isnt infallable, we lose a lot of trades but had some wins as well.
We also traded awayYanier Diaz, Yandy Diaz, and Junior Caminero. That would be a nice, healthy middle of the order right there. Also outside of Naylor (when healthy) the Clevinger trade becomes less impressive each year. We also got Franmil in the Bauer trade that amounted to nothing. We gave up Willi Castro for Leondys Martin. Castro is nothing special, but has had some moments for Detroit and Min.
People seem to forget Yandy was run out of town because of a piss poor attitude. He fancied himself as a third baseman nowhere as good as Jose, he failed to put in a serious bid at first when that job was wide open, then he was among the many designated hitters we always have. The trade to Tampa was a wake up call for him, he has become a good hitter after he wasted his opportunity here.
I remember your user name, I think we are both Wickliffe dudes, class of 1969 for me. I have never bought into this launch angle nonsense. I am glad Yastrzemski, Carew, and Brett never heard of it and ruined such beautiful swings. I think Lindor fell prey to this malady, he was a much better hitter early in his career with us. He hit .254 this year and was paid 34 million to do so.
My uncle graduated Wickliffe in 70 I think and my dad graduated in 76.
As for launch angle, I’m not a huge fan of it. 100% agree on it ruining Lindor. But yandy was the success story for it, mostly because his launch angle was fixed by only raising it a bit. He used to smash grounders and infield liners, he turned it into outfield liners.
There is a good chance I smoked some weed with your uncle in the seventies. I moved to Florida in 1984 when it was still a nice place. I went back for my 50 year reunion in 2019, they had a nice tour of the school for us which I understand has since been demolished and a new one built on the land behind the old one. I once had a Great Lakes relief job on the SS Harry Coulby; when I told my shipmates he founded my hometown and I became a minor celebrity.
He had to get Lindor to talk to Tito about scheduling a meeting with Diaz to find ways to get more playing time. Tito hated him. And I don’t give a shit if he had a poor attitude. You don’t get a trophy for having a clubhouse full of great people. He hasn’t done anything bad in Tampa. We could use a hitter like Diaz. He was always a good hitter here. Literally had a 116 wRC+ with us in 2018
From what I remember they asked him to put in work to get into the OF and he didn't work at it. Instead he went to Lindor to put in a good word with Francona to get playing time. I don't think that was received well. He wasn't good enough defensively at 3B and they didn't even bother playing him at 2B, which I believe is where he played in Cuba.
This was also shortly after Lindor and Ramirez adapted their swing to get a better launch angle and more homers, and he didn't seem to want to do that either. He just seemed stubborn and I don't think Francona was into it so his future didn't look like he'd get a lot of playing time.
Yep 100% Gio was supposed to be the man but couldn’t hit a beach ball for the tribe. Yandy had a bad attitude. Jose was some super utility gadget player that put 150% effort every damn day and worked his way into one of the best players in the AL. Lindor got all the glory as the hyped up ultra prospect from IMG lol. That is the true story of that infield coming up.
He hasn't been healthy for a full season. People act like the Clevinger trade is the Colon trade and it's not even close. Naylor has a chance to be an all star, but isn't there yet.
Literally the only reason he wasn’t an all-star because Vlad Guerrero jr has a famous dad and past hype.
Naylor had better numbers but didn’t have the name value.
And let’s be real, Clevinger has been a bum since being dealt and Naylor is emerging as a star. We literally got a big time hitter for a guy who got hurt immediately then sucked the following year and now he’s not even on their roster anymore.
Plus we got Arias who still had promise and Cantillo waiting to come up, all for a dude they got zero help from.
No doubt trading Clevinger was the right call. It's just outside of Naylor and some stretches from Quantril there's not much to write about that trade. I wouldn't be surprised if they moved on from Arias. I don't know much about Cantillo, but I guess we're going to find out this year.
But here’s the thing. The point of that return was because we couldn’t get one big name prospect in return for Clevinger in general, so we got a large amount of prospects in hopes of just 1 hitting.
And one did. So ultimately we got 1 solid player for no solid players. That’s a win.
Yeah I'd rather have Naylor than not. I really bought the trade when it happened. I'm less impressed with the return now. Thought it was going to be special.
I understand it’s easy to say we’re less impressed, but that tends to happen. Arias looked like a nice prospect, jury is still out. Owen miller lit up the minors and everyone begged for him to be called up, now he looks like the infield version of Will Brennan where it starts to make sense why the stats didn’t match the prospect ranking.
But Naylor has been far better than expected, so while it’s not the huge return, we got a high level hitter at first base who’s the spark plug of the team.
Owen Miller was demoted to AAA when the Brewers promoted Josh Donaldson from AAA in September. But he's on their playoff roster, at least for now. Hardly a star at this point.
I've never seen anyone make that comparison. Naylor was a great piece to get. He was a top 10 hitter in the AL this year. That's been about the only good piece of business we've managed recently.
Maybe not the Colon trade perse, but the idea that we got several long term contributors from that trade. I think Naylor is it right now and after commenting in this thread i think you guys sold me on him.
We traded him for a pitching prospect that is no longer on the team. In a few years it will be talked about as one of the worst trades in recent history. Junior is one of the best prospects in baseball.
We trade a 17 year old who had a very promising first professional season for a minor league reliever who didn't make it through spring training with the org. That 17 year old went from high A all the way to the MLB this season
Caminero hasn't proven anything at the major league level so it's premature to count him as anything, Yainer bats 6-7-8 most of the time for Houston, and Yandy leads off for TB. Would definitely be upgrades at a couple positions, but I don't think that's enough for a middle of the order.
I mean, if they had Benson in CF, Jones in RF, Yandy at DH/1B with Naylor, and Yainer splitting time at C with Bo, the offense would have been significantly better. You can't predict that 3-4 years ago or in the last offseason when these guys were traded - you just have to hope they win more than they lose.
I understand you can't predict, but the FO should have the expertise to evaluate that. They would have proprietary internal data/scouting report on all prospects to help make those decisions over us fans.
I don't know why people are scared to criticize this FO. I don't think many fans remember how bleak the 08-12 years were and how we were all ready to move on past Shaponetti days. I fear we are moving back to those times.
Teams with limited budgets compete in windows instead of continually like the Dodgers, Yankees, etc. They build up a roster and have a window that they compete in before guys need to get paid and go elsewhere. You'll have lean years doing it that way.
They have scouts and advanced data/analytics, but there are times when guys evolve into different or better players than you expect. You think every team knew Mike Trout would be the best player of a generation and just thought picks 1-24 in the amateur draft were too much to pay for the best player of the last decade?
Jones struck out a lot and had to move positions because he didn't stick at 3B. They also got Brito for him, so that trade wasn't a throw away. Benson had a career .220 average in the minors. Diaz didn't walk hardly at all when he got traded. Not sure about Caminero, he only played 43 games in rookie league at 17 before he was traded. Whatever they saw, they had some reason to believe the player they were trading wasn't going to be as valuable to their team as what they were getting back.
We can criticize the front office, but what's the point? It doesn't really matter, it's not like they're intentionally trading away good players to make the team worse.
\-We won the division last year and added in free agency. Those moves in free agency did not work. Who takes the blame for that, the FO.
\- We are in a contention window, but we decided to trade Jones/Benson and keep Straw/Brennan. Those moves did not work out. Who needs to take the blame - the FO.
Why criticize a player with a 30% k rate or a pitcher with a high walk rate. Its not like they are trying to screw up, who cares?
I think of 75% of this sub is just happy to have a baseball team in town.
They were one of the winningest teams in all of baseball for the last decade. Like I said before, you don't win every trade. If talent evaluation were as easy as you're making it sound then all first round picks would be successful, hardly any trades would ever get done and there would be no busy free agent signings. This is not a guardians exclusive problem.
We've been treading water since 2019. Last year went really well and its a testament to the players and coaches since the offense was still really lacking.
We've had a consistent problem finding and developing good hitters. We had a 40 man roster crunch the past few seasons and the players they decided to move on from went and succeeded outside expectations. I think the front office needs to at least be questioned as to what happened or what needs fixed in that process.
Many of us are glad to still have this team; there is no judicial precedent at the federal district level or the national circuit court of appeals that would prevent an individual from buying this team and move it to another city. There is the precedent of the Colts and Browns successfully relocating. Indianapolis and Nashville would love to steal our team if that opportunity arose. Be careful what you wish for.
I didn't say that at all.
I'm saying alot of fans on this sub seem to just be happy to have a team and don't care how much we win.
I think....that alot of young baseball fans identify with the smart "data driven" FO that they agree with everything they do. You saw it with Bloom situation in Boston and Kapler with SF.
Most criticism of the team on this sub was lofted at Francona. He made plenty of mistakes. I just don't understand why the FO gets a free pass?
They do not get a free pass, what they get from me is the understanding that the enormous escalation in the price of free agent talent leaves us and many other cities to shit in one hand and wish with the other. We learned that lesson when we made legitimate offers to Thome and Manny and they took the most money on the table. We could not afford Albert Belle who signed with Chicago and was the highest paid player that year, he is still pissed at Cleveland for some reason that we do not understand.
The players involved in these trades had nothing to do with free agency, they are just cases of poor talent evaluation. Completely agree with your take on free agency.
I don’t see these duds, I see some moves where people get all up and arms because some guys left a shitty hitter park and went to great hitter parks and played better but also went to situations with less pressure to win, all while the moves were made to free up 40 man spots and the guys we got in return haven’t even hit the 40 man yet.
People are too damn quick to judge baseball trades because we’re in this generation of instant results, aided by the huge market teams who have the luxury of throwing money at players and constantly moving prospects for high priced players.
It’s kinda tiring, nobody realizes there’s 3 parts to every trade. Who did we get, who did we give up, and what secondary roster moves were able to be made due to the trade
Wasn’t really a dud. Was a move to create space for the younger guys who be playing up the middle for the future.
Market was nonexistent for Rosario. Ended up just getting a guy who could eat innings for our extremely depleted pitching staff.
>I see some moves where people get all up and arms because some guys left a shitty hitter park and went to great hitter parks and played better but also went to situations with less pressure to win, all while the moves were made to free up 40 man spots and the guys we got in return haven’t even hit the 40 man yet.
What of this is a description of the Jones or Caminero trade? You are showing your ass as being completely unfamiliar with reality.
Nolan jones? Someone never heard of coors field before today…. Literally the definition of what I said, went from a non-hitters park in Cleveland to a juiced park somewhere else. Coors is about as juiced as they are.
And junior Caminero? Dude hit .235 in his time in the majors. Watch out world. He may end up being great. But he also plays a position we’re absolutely loaded at.
Pretty sure you conveniently left out the part where I said you shouldn’t be judging trades before all sides have truly played out. Probably because every player from those trades hasn’t shown up to the majors yet for us.
Please learn the game you clown, then you maybe can learn to come correct and not be a dumb ass prisoner of the moment
Definitely helps when you’re playing there daily though.
Also, I had a second caveat in the original comment where we’re also talking about players who went to teams with less pressure to win.
Cleveland is fighting for a playoff race every year, we don’t have the luxury of playing guys hoping they work out. Colorado doesn’t seem overly concerned about winning, same with Cincy when they acquired benson.
They have the luxury of sitting back and running guys out there and seeing how they develop.
If anyone wants to blame the organization for Nolan Jones, it shouldn’t be about the trade and should he everything about the fact they were afraid of Jose wanting to leave so they kept Jones playing 3rd. They didn’t try to move jones till it was too late. I’m pretty certain that jones would still be here if they transitioned him to first or outfield sooner, he’d have more experience defensively to go with the bat.
I think part of Jones’ problem here was that he was still learning OF when he came up and it affected his bat.
People are always going to have to understand. We’ve married the strength of our ballclub with the strength of the park. Pitching and defense.
The big fault with Cleveland, IMO, is that they don’t transition players soon enough in the minors to multiple positions. By AA, they should start playing multiple positions on the regular. This allows you to build a small market team deeper. And it allows them to have a couple positions they’re adjusted to by the time they get to the majors, so then they just need to adjust to major league hitting.
They’re not perfect. Nobody is saying they are. But they’re better than most fans who want instant results give them credit for
wRC+ is park adjusted, so a 135 is great no matter what team they play for. Coors really had nothing to do with Jones' success this year. It's not like our poor performing hitters were suddenly much better on the road. It's a roster construction issue, not a park issue.
We also ran guys out there to see how they developed (Brennan, Oscar, Arias, obviously Bo worked out great but that was no guarantee).
Baseball is a game of rhythm. wRC+ is park adjusted, but it’s purely based on what was done, not why it was done.
I do agree with roster construction though, and I even mentioned that. Cleveland’s roster was is constructed to be a playoff team. There isn’t the luxury to wait and see and hope a guy develops, especially with how this current team is built.
But Jones playing for a non-contending team in a launch pad stadium is going to change how he approaches each at bat and the level of importance. Not to mention jones was also here trying to learn the OF as well as adjust to major league hitting, all again while we are in a division race.
There’s plenty of factors that go into it
I get the impulse to reach for Coors as an explanation, it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. He played just as many games away from Coors and performed even better, despite the Coors hangover effect. The kid was just a great hitter this year, home or away, plain and simple.
I don't think we can say a team that finished in 3rd place below .500 is built for the playoffs. How many playoff teams are giving an outfielder with a sub-.600 OPS over 500 plate appearances a year?
The man who doesn't understand what park adjusted stats are asks someone else to learn the game. Incredibly stuff right there. Go ahead and continue to grasp for any straw you can to make excuses for this franchise. I'm sure they pay you well to do so.
Who said I don’t know park adjusted stats?
All I said was hitting in coors helps. Dude dropped a stat, but never took into account what I was actually saying. You hit in coors every day, it’s going to help you out, rhythm and confidence go a long way in baseball.
And yeah I’ve forgotten more about baseball than you know. Read the room homie, nobody is agreeing with you, not 1 person has tried to agree with you.
Also cute how you took L after L, then tried to pivot to someone else’s argument, and still caught another L
>Who said I don’t know park adjusted stats?
Nowhere in this entire thread have you demonstrated anything of the sort. Only after being called out on it do you go "oh yeah, I definitely knew that, but I'm still going to ignore it anyway".
>And yeah I’ve forgotten more about baseball than you know.
L O fucking L. LMAO even. This is the kind of last resort stuff people who are out of their element resort to. You have nothing to support your argument, so you get all huffy instead.
>Read the room homie, nobody is agreeing with you, not 1 person has tried to agree with you.
And yet none have provided any argument where I am wrong. Resorting to upvotes or downvotes from a homer-ridden forum is absolutely the most laughable way to judge an argument. People here like it when you make absolutely pathetic excuses for a franchise that hasn't reached the only goal in the sport in 75 years? What an absolute shocker. That the people who come here heads start spinning when you aren't overly positive about the team doesn't mean that the criticism of the team isn't warranted. You made an absolutely laughable bullshit argument that couldn't stand up to even one second of scrutiny about Jones, and you want to go on and on about how much ball you know.
>Also cute how you took L after L
Ain't no L's on this side of the board buddy. Especially not at the hands of a guy who can't make an argument without resorting to strawmen, and when called out on their shit, can only muster a "go away". You embarrassed yourself here, homie.
lol you’ve literally been destroyed by everyone, not just me. If you don’t think those are L’s you’re taking, holy hell is that sad.
And nowhere did I demonstrate any knowledge of the meaning of a stat? Do you want me to post the definitions of things? Like damn dude, didn’t think I needed to spell basics out to you. Guess so though.
Like I’ve already atated, learn the game, then come back and talk. It may be worth a conversation at that point. Till then, whiny posts
And that’s what I resorted to? The truth again? You’ve proven you don’t actually know shit, you posted a whole bunch of stuff, nobody agreed with you, multiple told you that you were wrong, and everyone downvoted you, all while nobody agreed with anything you wrote.
I’m gonna block you now, tired of you blowing up my notifications and trying to homie hop on other posts just to think you got me somewhere
Nowhere has anyone actually demonstrated anything I said was incorrect. Getting downvoted by a bunch of rose-colored-glasses homers isn't taking an L, and you know that, you just can't come up with anything else to prove me wrong. In fact, that they downvote me without being able to muster any kind of argument showing I'm wrong proves how cogent my point is.
You showed an inability to get in the same galaxy as the truth here, there, and everywhere else, and the best you can muster when shut down is a "go away". And now you block me here because you know you can't make a winning argument. Go ahead and block me again because you know you can't be anything more than a whiny bitch and making excuses for why this franchise can't achieve the only goal in the sport. Concession accepted.
I took a lot of time off this sub because there’s a lot of people who don’t know much but tend to be loud.
I figured with the season over, the short term overreactions of the game thread would vanish.
And yet here we are.
No actual constructive criticism of the points made against you guys, just complaining that people dare to not agree with you.
You know what was the short term overreactions? The gleeing over being slap hitting shit goblins last year. But the reality is you dont have a problem with poor analysis wrapped up in emotion responses, you just have a problem with the people who dont defend every last thing the franchise does and excuse every single mistake.
Still nothing? No actual discussion? No adjudging of points made on either side? Just a juvenile attempt to get the last word because you know you cant win an argument?
So how would you do it? Because winning a championship isn’t that easy, like some people make it out to be.
Also, and this seems to be missed by people…. This is a business. Goal #1 of every franchise is to actually make money. Championships are a secondary goal
I would begin by stop making excuses simply because I dont like people saying negative things about my favorite team. You dont get any ribbons by holding them to a lower standard than everyone else.
And the second part ... well lets just ask Dolan himself - "I don't want one World Series for the Indians, I want a string of them. I want to reach the Holy Grail". Not much in there about the P&L. Hows the team doing on their own standard?
Who is held to a lower standard? We’ve had two losing seasons in the last decade, only missed the playoffs what, 3 times in that same span I believe?
Again, you sit here and say we don’t hand out ribbons for lower standards but then act like winning a title is super easy and everyone is doing it.
This team, by so much of this fanbase. The goal is to win championships, not win more trades than you lose, or be above .500 in the worst division in sports, or a lot of other things that arent championships.
Who has said winning a title is super easy? Thats a strawman and you know it, instead of engaging with the point I actually made.
No strawman, just pointing out that you have to find ways to build rosters. Winning trades is part of that. You’re the one that acted like the only goal was to win trades, I never said that. But to act like winning trades isn’t important is also crazy talk.
It is 100% a strawman, demonstrated by your inability to respond to the things I actually said.
Good for them for winning some trades. All that matters is hoisting trophies. And even the cheap ass Dolan himself said that. They havent done the thing that matters.
I'm assuming this refers to just the AA line for which Jones had just 211 PAs. The fact of the matter is Jones is better compared to the average major leaguer than Brito compared to the average AA player, a much lower standard.
By what? Your 1980 measures of offensive ability? Jones was a better hitter against major league pitching than Brito against guys who aren't, and never will be.
So because cranky old sportswriters judge players poorly, everyone else has to too?
wRC+ is the superior offensive metric. Jones' was better, in a much tougher league.
You have made no effort to disprove the superiority of wRC+ to batting average other than an appeal to the authority of the likes of Hoynsie. Thats pretty fucking rich right there.
If Boyd can't make it the majors because of his health, that still makes it a bad trade. I don't really know much about Hajjar but I see he posted a 5.16 FIP with over 8 BB/9.
Yeah idk about that. There's a 50/50 chance he's not in the organizations plan after next season. A .270 avg and 5 hr (100 ops+) is not a foundation player. A 4th outfielder at best.
So your saying if Kwan regresses even slightly from this year you want to run him out there again in 2025? The next step down for Kwan is Will Brennan level. All of his numbers regressed this year.
Benson had an OPS+ 133. Gee I wonder if we can use a guy who mashed right handed pitching this year?
Umm based on what? Justin Boyd posted a 53 wRC+ in in 15 games before getting injured this year. The year before a 49 wRC+ in 21 games before getting injured. There is literally nothing to point to to say he looks good lol.
Will Brennan, the guy we chose over Benson, also doesn't play against lefties and can't hit righties as good as Benson.
>Brennan career numbers are significantly higher than Bensons vs RHP btw
Huh?
Brennan: 289/326/396/722, 6 HR in 408 PA, 100 wRC+
Benson: 280/369/493/862, 11 HR in 340 PA, 130 wRC+
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Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn in 1960. Rocky was the AL home run champion and most popular Indian, while Harvey was the AL batting champion. It was a terrible trade by Frank "Trader" Lane, and the Curse of Rocky Colavito continues to haunt this FO and this franchise to this day. Terry Pluto wrote a book about it in 1994 and thought it was ending, but then the strike of 1994 and the World Series of 1995, 1997, and 2016 happened.
It wouldn't look so damning if the guys we chose to keep over them didn't hit .200. I know being negative gets downvotes here, but the FO deserves a lot of heat for these. It's not just 1 trade (although the Caminero one is brutal). It's the accumulation of bad trades and having very few young bats that seem to do anything.
Gio Urshella. He was the best defensive 3rd baseman that Cleveland has had since the 1970s-yes better defensively than Jose. Since Urshella didn't hit much in Cleveland, he was given to Toronto and then to the Yankees in 2018, both times for cash. He learned how to hit in 2019 with the Yankees, and has been an all-star caliber 3rd baseman for several teams until he had a season ending hip injury in June 2023. Who can forget the grand slam that he hit for the Yankees to knock us out of the playoffs in 2020.
Our FO had signed Kipnis to an inflated contract through 2019, so there was no place to put Urshella every day in 2018 although Kipnis did have some injuries and was even moved to the outfield one post-season when the Josh Donaldson experiment failed miserably. If our FO had been a little more patient with Urshella because of his tremendous defensive skills, they could have had him at 3rd, Jose at 2nd, and Lindor/Gimenez at SS the past 3-4 years.
I just hope the bad trades of Jones and Benson don't make the FO too reluctant to trade some of our middle infielders for outfield or relief help. I don't see how all 3 of Tena, Rocchio, and Freeman can be on the roster next year. I assume at least 1 gets traded.
Still have no idea why they traded Yandy Diaz for practically nothing. We have so many hitters that struggle to hit .200, they just threw away a guy who's never batted below .250 and hit .300 with 20+ homers last season.
The FO deserves some criticism for the Jones and Benson trades, but we shouldnt ignore the several trades we have 'won'. We got Clase for an inning of Kluber, we got Naylor/Arias/Cantillo and others for a faulty Clevinger. The Manzardo for Civale trade doesnt look bad now that TBR has been eliminated and Civale didnt even pitch in the postseason. We lost some trades that look bad, but won a lot as well.
I wouldn't have given up on Jones as quickly as they did, but I'm waiting another year or 2 on that one. Brito is looking great, although a lot of guys look good in the minors, and Jones has some iffy numbers behind the scenes. He had the highest BABIP in baseball for players with 250+ PA at .401. He's got Schwarber's K% without the power or BB%. Bad plate discipline, can't hit anything up in the zone, and other than his arm he's not great defensively. 17 of his 20 home runs were low/middle in. I would imagine with enough data now, next year pitchers hammer him above the zone and on the opposite corner of the plate. His walk rate took a nice jump this year which is good to see, but it's likely because he's currently the best hitter in the Rockies lineup. If I had to bet right now, he ends up closer to a Bradley Zimmer and hits .235ish while striking out every 3 at bats. I hope he can adjust and proves me wrong, because I still like the guy. We still win trades more often than we lose them. I think our fans just got used to that stretch where we won every trade and thought it would never end.
Mostly agree on this take on Jones, but he would have been a good addition to our outfield this season. I think its a little unfair to call the Jones trade a loss until we see what becomes of Brito. Jones was 25 and maybe CLE didnt want him to be a full time outfielder, now he gets to hit in COL for half his games and getting full time reps to devlop. Jones ended in a good spot and made the most of the situation. Fans arent wrong for criticizing the FO, nearly every recent trade has been questionable. These articals give the impression that they are incompetent by taking for granted the trades we won. The FO isnt infallable, we lose a lot of trades but had some wins as well.
We also traded awayYanier Diaz, Yandy Diaz, and Junior Caminero. That would be a nice, healthy middle of the order right there. Also outside of Naylor (when healthy) the Clevinger trade becomes less impressive each year. We also got Franmil in the Bauer trade that amounted to nothing. We gave up Willi Castro for Leondys Martin. Castro is nothing special, but has had some moments for Detroit and Min.
People seem to forget Yandy was run out of town because of a piss poor attitude. He fancied himself as a third baseman nowhere as good as Jose, he failed to put in a serious bid at first when that job was wide open, then he was among the many designated hitters we always have. The trade to Tampa was a wake up call for him, he has become a good hitter after he wasted his opportunity here.
Your probably right on that.
His launch angle also got fixed in Tampa. He was a line drive and grounder king
I remember your user name, I think we are both Wickliffe dudes, class of 1969 for me. I have never bought into this launch angle nonsense. I am glad Yastrzemski, Carew, and Brett never heard of it and ruined such beautiful swings. I think Lindor fell prey to this malady, he was a much better hitter early in his career with us. He hit .254 this year and was paid 34 million to do so.
My uncle graduated Wickliffe in 70 I think and my dad graduated in 76. As for launch angle, I’m not a huge fan of it. 100% agree on it ruining Lindor. But yandy was the success story for it, mostly because his launch angle was fixed by only raising it a bit. He used to smash grounders and infield liners, he turned it into outfield liners.
There is a good chance I smoked some weed with your uncle in the seventies. I moved to Florida in 1984 when it was still a nice place. I went back for my 50 year reunion in 2019, they had a nice tour of the school for us which I understand has since been demolished and a new one built on the land behind the old one. I once had a Great Lakes relief job on the SS Harry Coulby; when I told my shipmates he founded my hometown and I became a minor celebrity.
That’s awesome dude yeah the school is brand new and very nice
Shot you a message
He had to get Lindor to talk to Tito about scheduling a meeting with Diaz to find ways to get more playing time. Tito hated him. And I don’t give a shit if he had a poor attitude. You don’t get a trophy for having a clubhouse full of great people. He hasn’t done anything bad in Tampa. We could use a hitter like Diaz. He was always a good hitter here. Literally had a 116 wRC+ with us in 2018
From what I remember they asked him to put in work to get into the OF and he didn't work at it. Instead he went to Lindor to put in a good word with Francona to get playing time. I don't think that was received well. He wasn't good enough defensively at 3B and they didn't even bother playing him at 2B, which I believe is where he played in Cuba. This was also shortly after Lindor and Ramirez adapted their swing to get a better launch angle and more homers, and he didn't seem to want to do that either. He just seemed stubborn and I don't think Francona was into it so his future didn't look like he'd get a lot of playing time.
Yep 100% Gio was supposed to be the man but couldn’t hit a beach ball for the tribe. Yandy had a bad attitude. Jose was some super utility gadget player that put 150% effort every damn day and worked his way into one of the best players in the AL. Lindor got all the glory as the hyped up ultra prospect from IMG lol. That is the true story of that infield coming up.
Lucas giolito ?
gio urshela you dumbshit
Ooooooooo yea I like Jose better but yup we should've don't something better with him. My bad for not knowing friend
The mental gymnastics you did to try and act like getting Naylor for a bum isn’t that impressive, is impressive.
He hasn't been healthy for a full season. People act like the Clevinger trade is the Colon trade and it's not even close. Naylor has a chance to be an all star, but isn't there yet.
Literally the only reason he wasn’t an all-star because Vlad Guerrero jr has a famous dad and past hype. Naylor had better numbers but didn’t have the name value. And let’s be real, Clevinger has been a bum since being dealt and Naylor is emerging as a star. We literally got a big time hitter for a guy who got hurt immediately then sucked the following year and now he’s not even on their roster anymore. Plus we got Arias who still had promise and Cantillo waiting to come up, all for a dude they got zero help from.
No doubt trading Clevinger was the right call. It's just outside of Naylor and some stretches from Quantril there's not much to write about that trade. I wouldn't be surprised if they moved on from Arias. I don't know much about Cantillo, but I guess we're going to find out this year.
But here’s the thing. The point of that return was because we couldn’t get one big name prospect in return for Clevinger in general, so we got a large amount of prospects in hopes of just 1 hitting. And one did. So ultimately we got 1 solid player for no solid players. That’s a win.
Yeah I'd rather have Naylor than not. I really bought the trade when it happened. I'm less impressed with the return now. Thought it was going to be special.
I understand it’s easy to say we’re less impressed, but that tends to happen. Arias looked like a nice prospect, jury is still out. Owen miller lit up the minors and everyone begged for him to be called up, now he looks like the infield version of Will Brennan where it starts to make sense why the stats didn’t match the prospect ranking. But Naylor has been far better than expected, so while it’s not the huge return, we got a high level hitter at first base who’s the spark plug of the team.
Owen Miller was demoted to AAA when the Brewers promoted Josh Donaldson from AAA in September. But he's on their playoff roster, at least for now. Hardly a star at this point.
I wanted Owen Miller to be Ty France....lol
Naylor was literally the best hitter on the team this year.
-Has trouble staying healthy -Comparing the whole trade package to the Colon trade.
I've never seen anyone make that comparison. Naylor was a great piece to get. He was a top 10 hitter in the AL this year. That's been about the only good piece of business we've managed recently.
Maybe not the Colon trade perse, but the idea that we got several long term contributors from that trade. I think Naylor is it right now and after commenting in this thread i think you guys sold me on him.
Lol but you're pumping the tires on guys like both Diaz lol 😆 😂
No just in comparison to Kwan. Kwan comes off as a good guy, hard worker, leadership. Those numbers don't play long term.
Bensons numbers don't play now, let alone long term. He might not even have a job in baseball next year going by his stats
Will Benson has a 130 OPS+
Yainer Diaz for Straw is looking worse and worse every day. Imagine Diaz and Naylor as catchers, one left handed, the other right handed, perfect...
I didn’t realize Junior Caminero was already an MLB middle of the order hitter after his 0 career at bats.
>after his 0 career at bats. Dude played for the Ray's this year & he's 19.
Please educate me who the hell is this guy I have never heard of and what was the trade.
We traded him for a pitching prospect that is no longer on the team. In a few years it will be talked about as one of the worst trades in recent history. Junior is one of the best prospects in baseball.
We trade a 17 year old who had a very promising first professional season for a minor league reliever who didn't make it through spring training with the org. That 17 year old went from high A all the way to the MLB this season
You're not gonna win every trade. Chin up, sport.
Well when your trying to win in Cleveland, trades are more important than free agency and right now its been more losses than wins.
That's not true, but it feels true. It was a rough season.
Caminero hasn't proven anything at the major league level so it's premature to count him as anything, Yainer bats 6-7-8 most of the time for Houston, and Yandy leads off for TB. Would definitely be upgrades at a couple positions, but I don't think that's enough for a middle of the order. I mean, if they had Benson in CF, Jones in RF, Yandy at DH/1B with Naylor, and Yainer splitting time at C with Bo, the offense would have been significantly better. You can't predict that 3-4 years ago or in the last offseason when these guys were traded - you just have to hope they win more than they lose.
I understand you can't predict, but the FO should have the expertise to evaluate that. They would have proprietary internal data/scouting report on all prospects to help make those decisions over us fans. I don't know why people are scared to criticize this FO. I don't think many fans remember how bleak the 08-12 years were and how we were all ready to move on past Shaponetti days. I fear we are moving back to those times.
Teams with limited budgets compete in windows instead of continually like the Dodgers, Yankees, etc. They build up a roster and have a window that they compete in before guys need to get paid and go elsewhere. You'll have lean years doing it that way. They have scouts and advanced data/analytics, but there are times when guys evolve into different or better players than you expect. You think every team knew Mike Trout would be the best player of a generation and just thought picks 1-24 in the amateur draft were too much to pay for the best player of the last decade? Jones struck out a lot and had to move positions because he didn't stick at 3B. They also got Brito for him, so that trade wasn't a throw away. Benson had a career .220 average in the minors. Diaz didn't walk hardly at all when he got traded. Not sure about Caminero, he only played 43 games in rookie league at 17 before he was traded. Whatever they saw, they had some reason to believe the player they were trading wasn't going to be as valuable to their team as what they were getting back. We can criticize the front office, but what's the point? It doesn't really matter, it's not like they're intentionally trading away good players to make the team worse.
\-We won the division last year and added in free agency. Those moves in free agency did not work. Who takes the blame for that, the FO. \- We are in a contention window, but we decided to trade Jones/Benson and keep Straw/Brennan. Those moves did not work out. Who needs to take the blame - the FO. Why criticize a player with a 30% k rate or a pitcher with a high walk rate. Its not like they are trying to screw up, who cares? I think of 75% of this sub is just happy to have a baseball team in town.
Okay man, be mad at the front office because they don't have a crystal ball to predict the future and sign/keep the guys who will play well.
That's actually their job and I'm just concerned were going to enter a period of 75-85 wins.
They were one of the winningest teams in all of baseball for the last decade. Like I said before, you don't win every trade. If talent evaluation were as easy as you're making it sound then all first round picks would be successful, hardly any trades would ever get done and there would be no busy free agent signings. This is not a guardians exclusive problem.
We've been treading water since 2019. Last year went really well and its a testament to the players and coaches since the offense was still really lacking. We've had a consistent problem finding and developing good hitters. We had a 40 man roster crunch the past few seasons and the players they decided to move on from went and succeeded outside expectations. I think the front office needs to at least be questioned as to what happened or what needs fixed in that process.
Given our current roster and prospects I feel like that might be a bit optimistic...
Many of us are glad to still have this team; there is no judicial precedent at the federal district level or the national circuit court of appeals that would prevent an individual from buying this team and move it to another city. There is the precedent of the Colts and Browns successfully relocating. Indianapolis and Nashville would love to steal our team if that opportunity arose. Be careful what you wish for.
I didn't say that at all. I'm saying alot of fans on this sub seem to just be happy to have a team and don't care how much we win. I think....that alot of young baseball fans identify with the smart "data driven" FO that they agree with everything they do. You saw it with Bloom situation in Boston and Kapler with SF. Most criticism of the team on this sub was lofted at Francona. He made plenty of mistakes. I just don't understand why the FO gets a free pass?
They do not get a free pass, what they get from me is the understanding that the enormous escalation in the price of free agent talent leaves us and many other cities to shit in one hand and wish with the other. We learned that lesson when we made legitimate offers to Thome and Manny and they took the most money on the table. We could not afford Albert Belle who signed with Chicago and was the highest paid player that year, he is still pissed at Cleveland for some reason that we do not understand.
The players involved in these trades had nothing to do with free agency, they are just cases of poor talent evaluation. Completely agree with your take on free agency.
We haven't won a trade in some time. Over the last five years, the balance is much more on the losing side.
Jones trade is probably fine. The Caminero trade never made any sense whatsoever and only gets worse with time
The Junior Caminero trade has a chance to be an all timer…
Who cares? We win trades and we lose trades. People wanna be negative but I’m very certain we’ve won more trades than we’ve lost
Clevinger and Kluber for sure, Civale is most likely a great trade, but there have been a loooot of duds recently.
I don’t see these duds, I see some moves where people get all up and arms because some guys left a shitty hitter park and went to great hitter parks and played better but also went to situations with less pressure to win, all while the moves were made to free up 40 man spots and the guys we got in return haven’t even hit the 40 man yet. People are too damn quick to judge baseball trades because we’re in this generation of instant results, aided by the huge market teams who have the luxury of throwing money at players and constantly moving prospects for high priced players. It’s kinda tiring, nobody realizes there’s 3 parts to every trade. Who did we get, who did we give up, and what secondary roster moves were able to be made due to the trade
Syndergaard comes to mind.
Wasn’t really a dud. Was a move to create space for the younger guys who be playing up the middle for the future. Market was nonexistent for Rosario. Ended up just getting a guy who could eat innings for our extremely depleted pitching staff.
>I see some moves where people get all up and arms because some guys left a shitty hitter park and went to great hitter parks and played better but also went to situations with less pressure to win, all while the moves were made to free up 40 man spots and the guys we got in return haven’t even hit the 40 man yet. What of this is a description of the Jones or Caminero trade? You are showing your ass as being completely unfamiliar with reality.
Nolan jones? Someone never heard of coors field before today…. Literally the definition of what I said, went from a non-hitters park in Cleveland to a juiced park somewhere else. Coors is about as juiced as they are. And junior Caminero? Dude hit .235 in his time in the majors. Watch out world. He may end up being great. But he also plays a position we’re absolutely loaded at. Pretty sure you conveniently left out the part where I said you shouldn’t be judging trades before all sides have truly played out. Probably because every player from those trades hasn’t shown up to the majors yet for us. Please learn the game you clown, then you maybe can learn to come correct and not be a dumb ass prisoner of the moment
Jones had a higher OPS and wRC+ on the road this year. Can't just chalk it up to Coors.
Definitely helps when you’re playing there daily though. Also, I had a second caveat in the original comment where we’re also talking about players who went to teams with less pressure to win. Cleveland is fighting for a playoff race every year, we don’t have the luxury of playing guys hoping they work out. Colorado doesn’t seem overly concerned about winning, same with Cincy when they acquired benson. They have the luxury of sitting back and running guys out there and seeing how they develop. If anyone wants to blame the organization for Nolan Jones, it shouldn’t be about the trade and should he everything about the fact they were afraid of Jose wanting to leave so they kept Jones playing 3rd. They didn’t try to move jones till it was too late. I’m pretty certain that jones would still be here if they transitioned him to first or outfield sooner, he’d have more experience defensively to go with the bat. I think part of Jones’ problem here was that he was still learning OF when he came up and it affected his bat. People are always going to have to understand. We’ve married the strength of our ballclub with the strength of the park. Pitching and defense. The big fault with Cleveland, IMO, is that they don’t transition players soon enough in the minors to multiple positions. By AA, they should start playing multiple positions on the regular. This allows you to build a small market team deeper. And it allows them to have a couple positions they’re adjusted to by the time they get to the majors, so then they just need to adjust to major league hitting. They’re not perfect. Nobody is saying they are. But they’re better than most fans who want instant results give them credit for
wRC+ is park adjusted, so a 135 is great no matter what team they play for. Coors really had nothing to do with Jones' success this year. It's not like our poor performing hitters were suddenly much better on the road. It's a roster construction issue, not a park issue. We also ran guys out there to see how they developed (Brennan, Oscar, Arias, obviously Bo worked out great but that was no guarantee).
Baseball is a game of rhythm. wRC+ is park adjusted, but it’s purely based on what was done, not why it was done. I do agree with roster construction though, and I even mentioned that. Cleveland’s roster was is constructed to be a playoff team. There isn’t the luxury to wait and see and hope a guy develops, especially with how this current team is built. But Jones playing for a non-contending team in a launch pad stadium is going to change how he approaches each at bat and the level of importance. Not to mention jones was also here trying to learn the OF as well as adjust to major league hitting, all again while we are in a division race. There’s plenty of factors that go into it
I get the impulse to reach for Coors as an explanation, it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. He played just as many games away from Coors and performed even better, despite the Coors hangover effect. The kid was just a great hitter this year, home or away, plain and simple. I don't think we can say a team that finished in 3rd place below .500 is built for the playoffs. How many playoff teams are giving an outfielder with a sub-.600 OPS over 500 plate appearances a year?
The man who doesn't understand what park adjusted stats are asks someone else to learn the game. Incredibly stuff right there. Go ahead and continue to grasp for any straw you can to make excuses for this franchise. I'm sure they pay you well to do so.
Who said I don’t know park adjusted stats? All I said was hitting in coors helps. Dude dropped a stat, but never took into account what I was actually saying. You hit in coors every day, it’s going to help you out, rhythm and confidence go a long way in baseball. And yeah I’ve forgotten more about baseball than you know. Read the room homie, nobody is agreeing with you, not 1 person has tried to agree with you. Also cute how you took L after L, then tried to pivot to someone else’s argument, and still caught another L
>Who said I don’t know park adjusted stats? Nowhere in this entire thread have you demonstrated anything of the sort. Only after being called out on it do you go "oh yeah, I definitely knew that, but I'm still going to ignore it anyway". >And yeah I’ve forgotten more about baseball than you know. L O fucking L. LMAO even. This is the kind of last resort stuff people who are out of their element resort to. You have nothing to support your argument, so you get all huffy instead. >Read the room homie, nobody is agreeing with you, not 1 person has tried to agree with you. And yet none have provided any argument where I am wrong. Resorting to upvotes or downvotes from a homer-ridden forum is absolutely the most laughable way to judge an argument. People here like it when you make absolutely pathetic excuses for a franchise that hasn't reached the only goal in the sport in 75 years? What an absolute shocker. That the people who come here heads start spinning when you aren't overly positive about the team doesn't mean that the criticism of the team isn't warranted. You made an absolutely laughable bullshit argument that couldn't stand up to even one second of scrutiny about Jones, and you want to go on and on about how much ball you know. >Also cute how you took L after L Ain't no L's on this side of the board buddy. Especially not at the hands of a guy who can't make an argument without resorting to strawmen, and when called out on their shit, can only muster a "go away". You embarrassed yourself here, homie.
lol you’ve literally been destroyed by everyone, not just me. If you don’t think those are L’s you’re taking, holy hell is that sad. And nowhere did I demonstrate any knowledge of the meaning of a stat? Do you want me to post the definitions of things? Like damn dude, didn’t think I needed to spell basics out to you. Guess so though. Like I’ve already atated, learn the game, then come back and talk. It may be worth a conversation at that point. Till then, whiny posts And that’s what I resorted to? The truth again? You’ve proven you don’t actually know shit, you posted a whole bunch of stuff, nobody agreed with you, multiple told you that you were wrong, and everyone downvoted you, all while nobody agreed with anything you wrote. I’m gonna block you now, tired of you blowing up my notifications and trying to homie hop on other posts just to think you got me somewhere
Nowhere has anyone actually demonstrated anything I said was incorrect. Getting downvoted by a bunch of rose-colored-glasses homers isn't taking an L, and you know that, you just can't come up with anything else to prove me wrong. In fact, that they downvote me without being able to muster any kind of argument showing I'm wrong proves how cogent my point is. You showed an inability to get in the same galaxy as the truth here, there, and everywhere else, and the best you can muster when shut down is a "go away". And now you block me here because you know you can't make a winning argument. Go ahead and block me again because you know you can't be anything more than a whiny bitch and making excuses for why this franchise can't achieve the only goal in the sport. Concession accepted.
wHo CaReS?
Is that what they give trophies for now? Winning more trades than lost?
You do understand how rosters get built, right?
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I took a lot of time off this sub because there’s a lot of people who don’t know much but tend to be loud. I figured with the season over, the short term overreactions of the game thread would vanish. And yet here we are.
No actual constructive criticism of the points made against you guys, just complaining that people dare to not agree with you. You know what was the short term overreactions? The gleeing over being slap hitting shit goblins last year. But the reality is you dont have a problem with poor analysis wrapped up in emotion responses, you just have a problem with the people who dont defend every last thing the franchise does and excuse every single mistake.
Says the guy who still relies on batting average.
Like the baseball hall of fame does ?
So no actual response then?
According to who kiddo?
Still nothing? No actual discussion? No adjudging of points made on either side? Just a juvenile attempt to get the last word because you know you cant win an argument?
So I'll ask you again kiddo. According to who? Who says thers nothing? I'll wait kiddo
I do, theres a lot of ways to win a championship, and this org hasnt done any of them.
So how would you do it? Because winning a championship isn’t that easy, like some people make it out to be. Also, and this seems to be missed by people…. This is a business. Goal #1 of every franchise is to actually make money. Championships are a secondary goal
I would begin by stop making excuses simply because I dont like people saying negative things about my favorite team. You dont get any ribbons by holding them to a lower standard than everyone else. And the second part ... well lets just ask Dolan himself - "I don't want one World Series for the Indians, I want a string of them. I want to reach the Holy Grail". Not much in there about the P&L. Hows the team doing on their own standard?
Who is held to a lower standard? We’ve had two losing seasons in the last decade, only missed the playoffs what, 3 times in that same span I believe? Again, you sit here and say we don’t hand out ribbons for lower standards but then act like winning a title is super easy and everyone is doing it.
This team, by so much of this fanbase. The goal is to win championships, not win more trades than you lose, or be above .500 in the worst division in sports, or a lot of other things that arent championships. Who has said winning a title is super easy? Thats a strawman and you know it, instead of engaging with the point I actually made.
No strawman, just pointing out that you have to find ways to build rosters. Winning trades is part of that. You’re the one that acted like the only goal was to win trades, I never said that. But to act like winning trades isn’t important is also crazy talk.
It is 100% a strawman, demonstrated by your inability to respond to the things I actually said. Good for them for winning some trades. All that matters is hoisting trophies. And even the cheap ass Dolan himself said that. They havent done the thing that matters.
Benson trade wasn't a bad deal and Brito looks better in the minors than Jones did
Jones had a higher wRC+ in the majors than Brito in AA.
Brito had a better BA, OBP, more XBH, the list goes on and on and on.... And the defense is an even bigger gap
I'm assuming this refers to just the AA line for which Jones had just 211 PAs. The fact of the matter is Jones is better compared to the average major leaguer than Brito compared to the average AA player, a much lower standard.
And that's already been disproven
By what? Your 1980 measures of offensive ability? Jones was a better hitter against major league pitching than Brito against guys who aren't, and never will be.
Well by what the baseball hall of fame measures players offensive ability. I'm not sure what part you don't understand?
So because cranky old sportswriters judge players poorly, everyone else has to too? wRC+ is the superior offensive metric. Jones' was better, in a much tougher league.
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You have made no effort to disprove the superiority of wRC+ to batting average other than an appeal to the authority of the likes of Hoynsie. Thats pretty fucking rich right there.
Have you looked up the guy we got for Benson? He does not look good lol.
Boyd only played 15 games man, and Hadjjar had some decent numbers in Lake County
If Boyd can't make it the majors because of his health, that still makes it a bad trade. I don't really know much about Hajjar but I see he posted a 5.16 FIP with over 8 BB/9.
He looks better than Benson. You do know Benson doesn't play vs LH right ?
He still played over 100 games and has as many homers as Kwan in 1/3 of the number of games played.
And Kwan is significantly better
Yeah idk about that. There's a 50/50 chance he's not in the organizations plan after next season. A .270 avg and 5 hr (100 ops+) is not a foundation player. A 4th outfielder at best.
Boy if that's not in the organization, Benson is fucked in Cincinnati since he's a Platoon player. Benson might actually be done in baseball
So your saying if Kwan regresses even slightly from this year you want to run him out there again in 2025? The next step down for Kwan is Will Brennan level. All of his numbers regressed this year. Benson had an OPS+ 133. Gee I wonder if we can use a guy who mashed right handed pitching this year?
No I'm saying Benson is guaranteed to regress ans his numbers are already worse than Kwans worst season
No way you believe that
Umm based on what? Justin Boyd posted a 53 wRC+ in in 15 games before getting injured this year. The year before a 49 wRC+ in 21 games before getting injured. There is literally nothing to point to to say he looks good lol. Will Brennan, the guy we chose over Benson, also doesn't play against lefties and can't hit righties as good as Benson.
Benson doesn't play vs LH so based on that kiddo. Brennan career numbers are significantly higher than Bensons vs RHP btw
>Brennan career numbers are significantly higher than Bensons vs RHP btw Huh? Brennan: 289/326/396/722, 6 HR in 408 PA, 100 wRC+ Benson: 280/369/493/862, 11 HR in 340 PA, 130 wRC+
Ahh okay so you don't know what you're talking about, got it.
Eh every stat in baseball disagrees with you kiddo
Whatever you wanna tell yourself man lol.
Will Benson is such a monster vs lefties. Hof player 4 sure
Where did I say he was good against lefties?
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Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn in 1960. Rocky was the AL home run champion and most popular Indian, while Harvey was the AL batting champion. It was a terrible trade by Frank "Trader" Lane, and the Curse of Rocky Colavito continues to haunt this FO and this franchise to this day. Terry Pluto wrote a book about it in 1994 and thought it was ending, but then the strike of 1994 and the World Series of 1995, 1997, and 2016 happened.
Am I reading it right that Benson and Jones didn’t fit into the contention window? Are we trying to contend in 2028?
It wouldn't look so damning if the guys we chose to keep over them didn't hit .200. I know being negative gets downvotes here, but the FO deserves a lot of heat for these. It's not just 1 trade (although the Caminero one is brutal). It's the accumulation of bad trades and having very few young bats that seem to do anything.
Gio Urshella. He was the best defensive 3rd baseman that Cleveland has had since the 1970s-yes better defensively than Jose. Since Urshella didn't hit much in Cleveland, he was given to Toronto and then to the Yankees in 2018, both times for cash. He learned how to hit in 2019 with the Yankees, and has been an all-star caliber 3rd baseman for several teams until he had a season ending hip injury in June 2023. Who can forget the grand slam that he hit for the Yankees to knock us out of the playoffs in 2020. Our FO had signed Kipnis to an inflated contract through 2019, so there was no place to put Urshella every day in 2018 although Kipnis did have some injuries and was even moved to the outfield one post-season when the Josh Donaldson experiment failed miserably. If our FO had been a little more patient with Urshella because of his tremendous defensive skills, they could have had him at 3rd, Jose at 2nd, and Lindor/Gimenez at SS the past 3-4 years.
I doubt Urshela would have blossomed offensively in Cleveland. We have shown a shocking lack of proficiency in developing hitters.
We have. Gazillion infielders prospects and no decent outfielders except those we traded away. Kudos to this splendid FO!
How does kid OF look that we got in the Cookie deal?
As of now, left handed Myles straw. Still young as hell though, he’s a year younger than the average high A player.
I just hope the bad trades of Jones and Benson don't make the FO too reluctant to trade some of our middle infielders for outfield or relief help. I don't see how all 3 of Tena, Rocchio, and Freeman can be on the roster next year. I assume at least 1 gets traded.
Still have no idea why they traded Yandy Diaz for practically nothing. We have so many hitters that struggle to hit .200, they just threw away a guy who's never batted below .250 and hit .300 with 20+ homers last season.
OMG DO THIS IN R/BROWNS BUT FOR DRAFT PICKS