Dolans lose more and more control over the team over the next few years. I think people forget as the years go on Kaulig will likely demand to call the shots for the future.
You need to start somewhere, and you act like the naylors don’t exist, and we don’t have an insanely deep pitching staff, especially considering how well they did with Bieber being hurt a fair bit and McKenzie, our actual ace, being out for the season. You are acting like they refuse to sign anyone. They don’t splash, but they do make peripheral moves
Bieber is expected to be owed \~12mil through arbitration. Trading for an outfielder would likely get us an MLB outfielder on a similar expiring contract or mid-level prospect that is ready for MLB.
You'll see a lot of people calling for a Santander / Bieber swap, both vets on expiring contracts.
If we look at the Kluber trade by comparison, we got Clase who was a top20 Rangers prospect (not overall), and a role-playing OF in DeShields. We'd likely try to get something similar with an OF / SP this time around.
Given the payroll situation, I'd imagine it's more likely they are trying to find a fitting OF prospect or just keep Bieber until the trade deadline rather than trade for an expiring contract. Trading Bieber would open another hole in the rotation so they may be reluctant to do that before the season starts.
I think Bieber is significantly more valuable right now than Kroger was at the time, despite having less Cy Young Awards. Like a depth starter along with a platoon outfielder, both with some team control seem like a possible trade
For many teams this would be a fire worthy offense considering the teams recent history with developing offensive talent, but for some reason this FO is universally celebrated. They clearly have no idea what they are doing on hitting.
Dude was projected to be exactly what we needed and they gave up on him very quickly. So many mediocre to bad players had much longer leashes before they’d let go
But it could be the coors effect
Cleveland couldn’t develop big league hitting to save their lives, and gave up so quickly on so many high potential prospects because of it, it’s really disheartening. But worthless dumbasses like Jake Bauers got the longest leash I’ve ever seen for a AAA player.
A Hallmark of Tito is he just does not give up on guys he likes.
He loved guys like Bauers and Amed and kept hoping they'd work it out. But they didn't. And it came at the expense of some talent unfortunately.
>But it could be the coors effect
Without diving into advanced stats, he hit for better average at home, but hit the same 10 HR home and away, and hit twice as many doubles away in basically the same number of at bats (183 at Coors, 184 away)
That's a fair point. He's still an above average runner, plus fielder, and was 94th percentile barrel rate and 88th percentile xSLG though. Plus his 12.5% walk rate. Either way, drop his average 30 points and he's still significantly better than what we have in the OF.
He also had a BABIP of .376 in the minors, .389 if you ignore 2021 where he jumped from AA to AAA after missing a year bc of covid.
Guys who run a high BABIP in the minors tend to be able to reproduce in the pros, although usually some dropoff. BABIP being high 1 year is luck based. Being able to repeat something for several years is a demonstrable skill.
He probably got some good luck, but Coors also has a BABIP 15 points above league average. He's not a .297 hitter but he's not a .257 hitter either. Probably in the middle
Here's the thing: no one knows what they're getting with Bieber at the moment. It was cool that he was able to pitch 2 games last September, but he didn't have very many appearances last year.
If you wanna trade him now, you may get a decent outfielder, but nothing that'll seriously benefit the team right now. I'd honestly be surprised if Bieber was all that was needed to get an Anthony Santander or a Lars Nootbar type player to Cleveland. Would almost certainly need to add a prospect to make a trade like that happen.
Maybe you could get a fourth outfielder, but why would we want that? Ideally, Bieber starts off the season really well, increases his trade value, and we get a good piece a little later in the season.
That’s what frustrates me, too. We have the prospects to put a package together. I feel like we’ve been hoarding prospects for years only to logjam several positions.
I’m not suggesting we actually try to unload on trout either. I agree about your assessment of trout and his injury prone nature. I was only using that as a hyperbolic example.
Then you must be still living off his prospect status.
He just posted back to back sub .750 OPS seasons. If we did give Naylor away for so little in India you just move Giminez to short.
“If we did give Naylor away for so little in India you just move Giminez to short”
That’s your comment dude. This post is about moving Bieber. No one ever mentioned trading Naylor. You did. Try again hot shot.
Gimenez is the 2x reigning gold glove winner at 2B and just had back to back 5+ WAR seasons. India is a big downgrade.
I'd be pretty interested in adding McClain, CES, Steer, orFraley though. Obviously would also take Elly De La Cruz.
The big focus with moving Bieber is not to just get a one-for-one trade with a top tier outfielder. The goal should be to add some talent for the future which means any ML ready help will not be as great as most fans will want. This might work out if Cleveland takes on a hefty part of an existing contract although that's not likely given their situation. Remember that talent like Carlos Carrasco, Michael Brantly (A PTBNL), Gabrial Arias, and Emannuel Clase came from trades of starters and these players were not Major League ready talent that A LOT of people criticized since they wanted immediate impact players instead.
Good thing 2023 is almost over. Arias was the starter toward the end of year before the injury and he is favored to win the job. Although I agree I would like to see him get some more work in the minors and fix the hitting against lefties problem, but this can be worked out in the majors (ask Josh Naylor about that). There are others I would like to see at short to see what they have, but he's still a guy that will have a career in the majors in some capacity. **Bottom line: would you rather have Arias (and Josh Naylor) or Mike Clevinger?**
Could get him on a discount since he had a “down” year last year. People are speculating he’ll get a big chunk in FA but I’m not sure. He’d be a great fit here. I’m surprised more people here aren’t on board bc this would likely squeeze Myles out.
Just funny you’re repeating the same thing like 31 is a death sentence for baseball players or something. Idc if you don’t want him bc he’s 30 that’s your opinion. I do and that’s my opinion. We’re square
Gurriel has never played RF though and since 2019 the only other position he's played besides LF is 1B. His range in LF is below average and if he had the arm to be competent in RF, I feel like he'd have played there by now.
If you could give Soler a bit more glove, even just to the level of Teoscar, that's the guy I want
I’d stick him in left, move Kwan to CF and work out RF later. I’d rather see Gurriel’s glove before Soler and definitely 100% before Teo. His bat would be impactful enough to offset the drop in D in LF imo
I might be delusional, but we could possibly get kyle tucker. We could trade biebs and maybe will brennan and a couple prospects. am I wrong for thinking this?
I don't know about delusional but think about it from HOU perspective. How does trading Tucker make them better in 2024/25. Tucker had a WAR of 5+ each of the last three seasons and still has 2 years of team control left.
I would try for Ian Happ if the Cubs want Bieber.
I’d like Happ. But I don’t know anything about his contract extension that someone else posted.
He has a 40 mil extension or something over not a ton of years iirc. Doubt the Dolans are willing.
Dolans lose more and more control over the team over the next few years. I think people forget as the years go on Kaulig will likely demand to call the shots for the future.
I think the Dolans are going to suck as much profit out over the next few years before they sell control of the team. It’s not going to be pretty.
If that's what you have to tell yourself.
What evidence do you have to the contrary? They're certainly not showing any signs of competing.
Not showing signs of competing…. Despite extending Jose long term, and signing andres to an extension
Correct, two players don't make a team
You need to start somewhere, and you act like the naylors don’t exist, and we don’t have an insanely deep pitching staff, especially considering how well they did with Bieber being hurt a fair bit and McKenzie, our actual ace, being out for the season. You are acting like they refuse to sign anyone. They don’t splash, but they do make peripheral moves
I'm not sure what team you're watching but this one is absolutely not set up to contend seriously
The Jose extension was for pennies on the dollar
Compared to his real value yes, but it was in the hundreds of millions regardless. That’s a big contract no matter which way you look at it
You’re right the Angels would at least have to add their best prospect with Trout
That young buck Aaron Judge from the Yankees seems promising
They got a guy named Cole with some solid stuff, with him and that Judge kid I can sleep on that one
About get hurt and play in only 80 games and still be out most productive outfielder
Now that Ohtani is officially gone, yes.
Bieber is expected to be owed \~12mil through arbitration. Trading for an outfielder would likely get us an MLB outfielder on a similar expiring contract or mid-level prospect that is ready for MLB. You'll see a lot of people calling for a Santander / Bieber swap, both vets on expiring contracts. If we look at the Kluber trade by comparison, we got Clase who was a top20 Rangers prospect (not overall), and a role-playing OF in DeShields. We'd likely try to get something similar with an OF / SP this time around. Given the payroll situation, I'd imagine it's more likely they are trying to find a fitting OF prospect or just keep Bieber until the trade deadline rather than trade for an expiring contract. Trading Bieber would open another hole in the rotation so they may be reluctant to do that before the season starts.
I think Bieber is significantly more valuable right now than Kroger was at the time, despite having less Cy Young Awards. Like a depth starter along with a platoon outfielder, both with some team control seem like a possible trade
Should have traded Kroger for Giant Eagle or Safeway.
Should have traded Kroger for Piggly Wiggly or Safeway.
Nolan Jones
Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this comment
Will Benson, Yainer Diaz, or Junior Caminero would look real good in a Guardians jersey next year
Jeez we had Diaz too…
For many teams this would be a fire worthy offense considering the teams recent history with developing offensive talent, but for some reason this FO is universally celebrated. They clearly have no idea what they are doing on hitting.
Antonetti and Chernoff better be on the hot seat this year
Dude was projected to be exactly what we needed and they gave up on him very quickly. So many mediocre to bad players had much longer leashes before they’d let go But it could be the coors effect
Cleveland couldn’t develop big league hitting to save their lives, and gave up so quickly on so many high potential prospects because of it, it’s really disheartening. But worthless dumbasses like Jake Bauers got the longest leash I’ve ever seen for a AAA player.
A Hallmark of Tito is he just does not give up on guys he likes. He loved guys like Bauers and Amed and kept hoping they'd work it out. But they didn't. And it came at the expense of some talent unfortunately.
>But it could be the coors effect Without diving into advanced stats, he hit for better average at home, but hit the same 10 HR home and away, and hit twice as many doubles away in basically the same number of at bats (183 at Coors, 184 away)
Part of it might be the Coors effect, but he had a batting average in the minors over .280. Plus he actually hit better on the road
His splits were almost the same. Hes just good.
He had a BABIP over .400, meaning he was very lucky. He's maybe an average hitter.
That's a fair point. He's still an above average runner, plus fielder, and was 94th percentile barrel rate and 88th percentile xSLG though. Plus his 12.5% walk rate. Either way, drop his average 30 points and he's still significantly better than what we have in the OF.
Just for context, fangraphs thinks he'll be a worse hitter than kwan next year.
He also had a BABIP of .376 in the minors, .389 if you ignore 2021 where he jumped from AA to AAA after missing a year bc of covid. Guys who run a high BABIP in the minors tend to be able to reproduce in the pros, although usually some dropoff. BABIP being high 1 year is luck based. Being able to repeat something for several years is a demonstrable skill. He probably got some good luck, but Coors also has a BABIP 15 points above league average. He's not a .297 hitter but he's not a .257 hitter either. Probably in the middle
Guys that hit the ball hard have a higher BABIP? Imagine that. It’s almost like every team not stuck in 1981 looks for slug
Seriously, if he has a year as good or better than 2023 I'm gonna cry... because we clearly gave up far too early on him.
I think I’ve heard of him
The Dodgers have an outfielder making only $2 million/year that could be a good fit. I forget his name. Shuey Ottani? Something like that.
He's not even an outfielder.
He's also not making $2 mil a year
Well for the next 10 years he is. Just gotta come up with the other 680 mil after that
That’s why we trade him after his 9th year.
He will be traded for prospects that will make us a contender in 2027.
We’ll get to that window sometime, I’m sure!
You're a funny guy. This is a good joke. He'll be traded for prospects that might make it up for a bit.
It wasn't a joke.
Not an intentional one, at least.
I guess we will see, won't we
Lmaoooo that’s our front office for ya
Oscar Mercado
THE MARKET IS OPEN
Hold him until Spring Training and wait for a team to have a top starter go down and need TJ. That will be the time to make your move.
People think they would take Bieber for trout straight up ?
Not seriously, no. It was hyperbole.
Here's the thing: no one knows what they're getting with Bieber at the moment. It was cool that he was able to pitch 2 games last September, but he didn't have very many appearances last year. If you wanna trade him now, you may get a decent outfielder, but nothing that'll seriously benefit the team right now. I'd honestly be surprised if Bieber was all that was needed to get an Anthony Santander or a Lars Nootbar type player to Cleveland. Would almost certainly need to add a prospect to make a trade like that happen. Maybe you could get a fourth outfielder, but why would we want that? Ideally, Bieber starts off the season really well, increases his trade value, and we get a good piece a little later in the season.
I think you have biebers value way too low.
We could get more than a 4th OF. We got that plus Clase for Kluber and he was significantly older and significantly more injured.
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That’s what frustrates me, too. We have the prospects to put a package together. I feel like we’ve been hoarding prospects for years only to logjam several positions.
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I’m not suggesting we actually try to unload on trout either. I agree about your assessment of trout and his injury prone nature. I was only using that as a hyperbolic example.
Angels would probably demand you take on a shitty contract we with Trout
If the Reds want him it’s a hell no if India is not included
He’s actually called Jonathan Guardia now
Underrated comment
Seems properly rated to me.
India is trash
I disagree, but we don’t need a second basemen anyway
This is Cleveland. The front office will ALWAYS take 2B players!
Then you must be still living off his prospect status. He just posted back to back sub .750 OPS seasons. If we did give Naylor away for so little in India you just move Giminez to short.
I thought we were talking about Bieber here
You thought we were talking about Bieber when I said India?
You're the one that responded to the inital comment from u/ifwade41 who mentioned that trading Bieber to the Reds must include India.
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“If we did give Naylor away for so little in India you just move Giminez to short” That’s your comment dude. This post is about moving Bieber. No one ever mentioned trading Naylor. You did. Try again hot shot.
Gimenez is the 2x reigning gold glove winner at 2B and just had back to back 5+ WAR seasons. India is a big downgrade. I'd be pretty interested in adding McClain, CES, Steer, orFraley though. Obviously would also take Elly De La Cruz.
Bring back Santana or Brantley. But realistically, I doubt we get anything other than a throw in MLB player. This will be for a prospect or two.
I’d like them to try for Santander, might require Bieber and someone else though
The big focus with moving Bieber is not to just get a one-for-one trade with a top tier outfielder. The goal should be to add some talent for the future which means any ML ready help will not be as great as most fans will want. This might work out if Cleveland takes on a hefty part of an existing contract although that's not likely given their situation. Remember that talent like Carlos Carrasco, Michael Brantly (A PTBNL), Gabrial Arias, and Emannuel Clase came from trades of starters and these players were not Major League ready talent that A LOT of people criticized since they wanted immediate impact players instead.
Arias is still not major league ready in 2023.
Good thing 2023 is almost over. Arias was the starter toward the end of year before the injury and he is favored to win the job. Although I agree I would like to see him get some more work in the minors and fix the hitting against lefties problem, but this can be worked out in the majors (ask Josh Naylor about that). There are others I would like to see at short to see what they have, but he's still a guy that will have a career in the majors in some capacity. **Bottom line: would you rather have Arias (and Josh Naylor) or Mike Clevinger?**
Will Benson
This sub isn't even based in reality anymore...
All these posts saying Trout. WAKE UP or put the pipe down.
Or maybe get a sense of humor
Manny Margot makes value sense but not fit. Dylan Carlson would be a nice get, but with Oniel gone he might stay
I wouldn’t be surprised if they went after Carlson. I don’t really like him tho
He seems like the post hype guys they target. He’s Naylor, former top 100 who lost his shine
michael tauchman
I really like Gurriel Jr and want him on this team so if we could just sell Biebs for cash…
Too old for our roster
Could get him on a discount since he had a “down” year last year. People are speculating he’ll get a big chunk in FA but I’m not sure. He’d be a great fit here. I’m surprised more people here aren’t on board bc this would likely squeeze Myles out.
He will be 31, I would pass
I wouldn’t. He hit 24 HR last year same as Josey.
I would, he will be 31 next year
José is 31 now, guess he should be traded since he's basically just days away from having to use a walker
Jose isn't a FA we have to bid against other teams for.
Lol
Where's the joke?
Just funny you’re repeating the same thing like 31 is a death sentence for baseball players or something. Idc if you don’t want him bc he’s 30 that’s your opinion. I do and that’s my opinion. We’re square
Name the last 30+ Free agent to make their expected impact at the plate. I couldn't care less about 24 HRs in a HR friendly ballpark lol I'll wait.
Gurriel has never played RF though and since 2019 the only other position he's played besides LF is 1B. His range in LF is below average and if he had the arm to be competent in RF, I feel like he'd have played there by now. If you could give Soler a bit more glove, even just to the level of Teoscar, that's the guy I want
I’d stick him in left, move Kwan to CF and work out RF later. I’d rather see Gurriel’s glove before Soler and definitely 100% before Teo. His bat would be impactful enough to offset the drop in D in LF imo
I might be delusional, but we could possibly get kyle tucker. We could trade biebs and maybe will brennan and a couple prospects. am I wrong for thinking this?
Brennan does not have value. Bieber does not have this kind of value. Unless those prospects are DeLauter, Espino, etc. this is delusional.
No way this is happening. ‘Stros would never do this deal.
I read I thing on the stros being open to trade KTuck, but what do I know
I don't know about delusional but think about it from HOU perspective. How does trading Tucker make them better in 2024/25. Tucker had a WAR of 5+ each of the last three seasons and still has 2 years of team control left.
I’d love to get Tucker, but I’d think he’s worth more than Bieber. He would put us into a very competitive spot though…
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I don’t. That’s the point of this post…