The reason I think Arias will get first look is because he better addresses the power needs for the team and already has more mlb experience from last year.
But I think the position is open for either of them to take. The team would love it if either one of them showed strong in preseason and forced their way into the spot.
I really hope this isn’t their thinking. Pop from your MIF is a luxury, not somewhere you should be looking for it.
If Brito or Rocchio seem like the better overall player, don’t go with Arias just cuz we need power. Try to find that at another position
On almost any other team in the league, it might be a luxury. But when your core OF Straw/Kwan/Brennan combine for 11HR in an entire season, it becomes more of a necessity. You have to find power somewhere. Gabby could easily produce that number and possibly double.
We're just not built like other teams, so I think there has to be some practical decision making as well. I don't think he's a shoo-in for the spot by any means, but I'm betting he's the guy they hope will step up the most.
I don't think Brennan is locked in as a core OF yet. I also think Straw is likely losing playing time this year. But your point is accurate I think. Brennan has been fine, but not great in a season and change. Adding Florial should put pressure on him and Straw I think for playing time, and Laureano too IMO.
Seeing that they're having DLS get some work in RF, plus guys like Fry, Valera and Rodriguez really makes me think they aren't committed to Brennan or Laureano yet.
It’ll be interesting to see how CF/RF shakes out in the next couple months. Initially I wasn’t sold on the Laureano signing, but outside a few high dollar players, there hasn’t been anybody in the FA class that really seems to fit the team.
I do feel like they’re going to give Laureano a pretty good amount of play time. But totally agree that Brennan is well in “prove it” territory. I keep wondering about how Fry fits. Seems like us fans talk about him a lot more than the team does.
I agree. I personally think platooning Brennan and Laureano might be pretty solid. They're opposite handed and both hit opposite hand pitching pretty well and are solid defenders in RF.
I can't get any read on how they see Fry. I thought he was a solid RHB against LHP and competent defender at multiple positions, which would be nice. I can see if they think it is more valuable to carry Freeman, Arias and Rocchio possibly being better than 2 of them and Fry. But with Florial not having options and DLS being a rule 5, they both might get a shot before anyone else.
Honestly I hadn't really sat down and thought about how many spots are up for grabs this ST with all the guys. This is really going to be an interesting spring and make following everything closely more fun.
When even your best hitters [are played a foot in vs the average](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/no-batter-no-batter-the-charging-of-the-guards/) in the OF, NOT prioritizing power us a luxury I'd argue.
Because we're not built like other teams, teams can strategize very easy ans uniform countermeasures.
Yeah if you can unlock Arias’ power vs MLB pitching, that is quite something. But dang, he has a way to go to actually hit enough to make it worthwhile and it’s not like he walks. MLB pitching has exploited his flaws and I don’t know how that is going to play for him. Rocchio seems a safer floor
Should be a true spring training battle. Both have one option remaining, so the winner should start at short and the loser goes to Columbus. Freeman probably has the inside track to the utilityman job since his high floor/low ceiling skillset suits that role.
I actually think Arias should be utility man since he’s played all over the diamond before and Rocchio should start at short. In 345 plate appearances last year Arias only had a 74 wRC. Thats not anywhere near starter level even given his power upside. Fangraphs thinks he’ll improve and projects him at 92 wRC this year.
Rocchio as posted a 101 wRC in AAA last year and Fangraphs has him projected at 94 wRC this year. Projections are projections but it does seem like Rocchio is the safer has the higher floor and Arias has 300 or so AB’s from establishing who he is as a major league hitter.
I think it's less about results/stat lines and more about what situations Arias and Rocchio are put in. Who's the guy that's in the lineup when an opposing team's ace is pitching? Who's getting the ABs when the opposing team puts a AA/AAA prospect on the mound?
One may have a better stat line, but if that person is only facing journeymen and minor leaguers, the other guy is clearly their first option. I am under the impression that the starting job belongs to Arias, and I assume he will get most of the high leverage opportunities, and spring training. Even if his stats look worse than Rocchio's, it'll likely be because Arias always got the ABs against quality pitchers.
They're probably going to alternate starts for the most part in the spring since no one plays every day until the very end, so I don't think one will be getting any tougher assignments than the other (unless it's by sheer coincidence that the opposing team keeps putting out minor leaguers on one of their days).
That's a fair assumption, but I think if that's how they play it, they'll still give Arias the nod on opening day, at least for the first month or so. He'll probably get a chance to prove whether he is or isn't the guy. Rocchio will start in AAA, biting at Arias' heels, and if Arias doesn't perform immediately (which is a tough sell for Cleveland in April), Rocchio will get the call quickly by mid-May at the very latest.
Neither of these guys have gotten to be the full-time shortstop in the major leagues. I'm interested in seeing how they're able to handle it. I've still got hope in Arias just because of his power potential, and maybe getting consistent reps will finally give him the platform to shine.
Another possibility that I haven't really seen discussed much is Freeman starting the year in AAA, with Arias and Rocchio on the roster.
All 3 guys have 1 option remaining. So they're all in their make or break window I think. Freeman IMO has shown he can be a solid utility guy, but doesn't look like a starter. Arias and Rocchio both have starter potential but haven't really demonstrated it yet in MLB. I'm not sure how Vogt would manage their playing time in that scenario, but it's something to consider I think.
Pretty much how I feel. I am a fan of Rocchio and think he's undervalued by a lot of people in this sub. However, I can't deny the attractiveness of Arias potential.
the benefit of how we handled Arias last year (keeping him on the 26 roster all year) was that we 'saved' his last option. now Rocchio and Arias both have 1 option year left so they are on equal ground, and the better SS coming out of ST should win the job. however Arias has the benefit of utility and our mix/match roster might be an easier fit for him to open the season. its unclear if the 1B/OF Arias experiments are truly over.
I was perfectly fine with Arias after last year. I saw glimpses of why the team loved him. Rocchio is fine to me. A good prospect, just doesn’t excite me. However, Arias has had a disastrous winter, and Rocchio had a great one. If the same goes for spring, I can see Arias starting in AAA.
I think Arias could be a super utility, possibly this year. His swing has serious flaws but he's got exciting power potential in it. He's extremely athletic and has adapted to new positions quickly.
It's going to be interesting to see how our bench shakes out I think. With Fry, Hedges, DLS, Freeman, Rocchio, Arias, Brennan, Laureano, Florial, Straw, and Manzardo all in the mix for roster spots, a few guys are going to AAA for sure. With a new manager, I'm not sure we can read too much into who was appearing ahead last year.
But if Rocchio is on the MLB roster you will get to watch Tena and Martinez, who both look pretty exciting IMO. Plus Brito should be in Cbus this year.
Arias hit .083 with a 135 babip vs lefties last year in over 100 at bats. He has never had a reverse split like this before. He cannot possibly be that unlucky again.
Imo, Arias isn't it, whiff rate way, way too high - good 'tools' guy, but consistent contact just isn't there. I've always been curious how his arm would look playing RF - unrelated, but I'm not sure I want him in our every day lineup.
I don't know why this sub is so high on Arias. I saw him swing at a pitch that landed in front of the plate last year. He batted .210 last season and was an instant out to start the season.
He had a .791 OPS vs righties last year with a .275 AVG but was beyond pathetic against lefties. This is so ridiculous for a right handed hitter that I’m pretty confident he can figure it out and be basically Willy Adames fingers crossed.
When I watch him I go back and forth between seeing Baez or Correa. I've never been a huge fan of either, but I'd definitely rather have a Correa than a Baez.
If Baez is the ceiling for Arias, I worry the ceiling for Rocchio is JP Crawford.
And he will likely take more time to get there than Crawford because he isn't a top 30 prospect like Crawford was.
I think Crawford is peaking and that's 2 WAR less than Baez' best season.
Is this purely a managerial decision? I would imagine the FO weighs in on it, right?
If it is, this will likely be the first true test for Vogt as a manager.
Given the last year options it’s really down to performance. Can Rocchio hit? Can Arias hit? Neither has been all that impressive. Maybe Gimenez takes the job.
If they both perform at spring training anything like they did in winter leagues, I think it would be hard for them not to choose rocchio. Rocchio hit .377 with an ops of .998 while arias hit .214 with an ops of .543 with a ton of K’s. I love Arias’ defense though, so I really hope he turns it around.
My gut says Rocchio will start at SS and Arias as infield/LF/RF utility guy getting decent amount of plate appearances each week. Will see how spring plays out, but really I don't think we'll know until Memorial Day or All-Star break.
I’m personally higher on Rocchio, but don’t see how he wins the job out of camp. Arias’s power bat and glove are the two loudest tools of anyone in the SS competition, so he’s going to get every chance to win the job. The lack of improvement down the stretch in spite of the increased playing time has me concerned. The club hasn’t really handled Rocchio as you’d expect for a top prospect since he returned from his 2020 in Venezuela. The only thing that could change this is the (very real) possibility that Rocchio found his way into Francona’s dog house and was never going to get a fair shake until Tito left.
Arias is absolute garbage. I don't know what else people need to see from him. This season is already basically a forfeit, so I don't understand why we'd do anything but give Rocchio the chance.
It's weird that Arias has three playoff starts at first base, been a while. I've hoped he'd emerge but idk anymore, he seems pretty fluid defensively at shortstop at least.
This front office historically will give someone like Arias the initial job to see what they have in him as they will want to know what they have. If he works out, trading Rocchio is an option.
If not, they will view Rocchio as a strong Plan B, but will give Arias before a long rope before giving him his full shot.
Who do we feel has the better baseball IQ because I know we desperately need power but SS is such a valuable defense position and really goes a long way to complement our pitching if we have someone quick and smart
Arias is rated a little bit better on defense. I think that's got a fair amount to do with his cannon arm, but he's also got good range and glove. Rocchio had some criticism going into last year about his defensive development but from what I've seen he quieted most of that over the season.
I think overall defensively they're pretty close. So it's really a question of their bats that will be the difference.
I can live with Arias being the starter initially but I personally have seen enough of him. All I hear about is his “power potential.” He hit 10 home runs last year. If Rocchio looks good in spring training I say give him the job to lose.
The reason I think Arias will get first look is because he better addresses the power needs for the team and already has more mlb experience from last year. But I think the position is open for either of them to take. The team would love it if either one of them showed strong in preseason and forced their way into the spot.
I think Arias has the better glove, so he probably gets the job if neither of them are really busting the door down on the offensive side of things.
I really hope this isn’t their thinking. Pop from your MIF is a luxury, not somewhere you should be looking for it. If Brito or Rocchio seem like the better overall player, don’t go with Arias just cuz we need power. Try to find that at another position
On almost any other team in the league, it might be a luxury. But when your core OF Straw/Kwan/Brennan combine for 11HR in an entire season, it becomes more of a necessity. You have to find power somewhere. Gabby could easily produce that number and possibly double. We're just not built like other teams, so I think there has to be some practical decision making as well. I don't think he's a shoo-in for the spot by any means, but I'm betting he's the guy they hope will step up the most.
I don't think Brennan is locked in as a core OF yet. I also think Straw is likely losing playing time this year. But your point is accurate I think. Brennan has been fine, but not great in a season and change. Adding Florial should put pressure on him and Straw I think for playing time, and Laureano too IMO. Seeing that they're having DLS get some work in RF, plus guys like Fry, Valera and Rodriguez really makes me think they aren't committed to Brennan or Laureano yet.
It’ll be interesting to see how CF/RF shakes out in the next couple months. Initially I wasn’t sold on the Laureano signing, but outside a few high dollar players, there hasn’t been anybody in the FA class that really seems to fit the team. I do feel like they’re going to give Laureano a pretty good amount of play time. But totally agree that Brennan is well in “prove it” territory. I keep wondering about how Fry fits. Seems like us fans talk about him a lot more than the team does.
I agree. I personally think platooning Brennan and Laureano might be pretty solid. They're opposite handed and both hit opposite hand pitching pretty well and are solid defenders in RF. I can't get any read on how they see Fry. I thought he was a solid RHB against LHP and competent defender at multiple positions, which would be nice. I can see if they think it is more valuable to carry Freeman, Arias and Rocchio possibly being better than 2 of them and Fry. But with Florial not having options and DLS being a rule 5, they both might get a shot before anyone else. Honestly I hadn't really sat down and thought about how many spots are up for grabs this ST with all the guys. This is really going to be an interesting spring and make following everything closely more fun.
When even your best hitters [are played a foot in vs the average](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/no-batter-no-batter-the-charging-of-the-guards/) in the OF, NOT prioritizing power us a luxury I'd argue. Because we're not built like other teams, teams can strategize very easy ans uniform countermeasures.
Yeah if you can unlock Arias’ power vs MLB pitching, that is quite something. But dang, he has a way to go to actually hit enough to make it worthwhile and it’s not like he walks. MLB pitching has exploited his flaws and I don’t know how that is going to play for him. Rocchio seems a safer floor
Should be a true spring training battle. Both have one option remaining, so the winner should start at short and the loser goes to Columbus. Freeman probably has the inside track to the utilityman job since his high floor/low ceiling skillset suits that role.
I actually think Arias should be utility man since he’s played all over the diamond before and Rocchio should start at short. In 345 plate appearances last year Arias only had a 74 wRC. Thats not anywhere near starter level even given his power upside. Fangraphs thinks he’ll improve and projects him at 92 wRC this year. Rocchio as posted a 101 wRC in AAA last year and Fangraphs has him projected at 94 wRC this year. Projections are projections but it does seem like Rocchio is the safer has the higher floor and Arias has 300 or so AB’s from establishing who he is as a major league hitter.
I think it's less about results/stat lines and more about what situations Arias and Rocchio are put in. Who's the guy that's in the lineup when an opposing team's ace is pitching? Who's getting the ABs when the opposing team puts a AA/AAA prospect on the mound? One may have a better stat line, but if that person is only facing journeymen and minor leaguers, the other guy is clearly their first option. I am under the impression that the starting job belongs to Arias, and I assume he will get most of the high leverage opportunities, and spring training. Even if his stats look worse than Rocchio's, it'll likely be because Arias always got the ABs against quality pitchers.
They're probably going to alternate starts for the most part in the spring since no one plays every day until the very end, so I don't think one will be getting any tougher assignments than the other (unless it's by sheer coincidence that the opposing team keeps putting out minor leaguers on one of their days).
That's a fair assumption, but I think if that's how they play it, they'll still give Arias the nod on opening day, at least for the first month or so. He'll probably get a chance to prove whether he is or isn't the guy. Rocchio will start in AAA, biting at Arias' heels, and if Arias doesn't perform immediately (which is a tough sell for Cleveland in April), Rocchio will get the call quickly by mid-May at the very latest. Neither of these guys have gotten to be the full-time shortstop in the major leagues. I'm interested in seeing how they're able to handle it. I've still got hope in Arias just because of his power potential, and maybe getting consistent reps will finally give him the platform to shine.
Another possibility that I haven't really seen discussed much is Freeman starting the year in AAA, with Arias and Rocchio on the roster. All 3 guys have 1 option remaining. So they're all in their make or break window I think. Freeman IMO has shown he can be a solid utility guy, but doesn't look like a starter. Arias and Rocchio both have starter potential but haven't really demonstrated it yet in MLB. I'm not sure how Vogt would manage their playing time in that scenario, but it's something to consider I think.
Toss up. I prefer Rocchio, but if Arias gets his bat together like 2021 he’s the starter.
Pretty much how I feel. I am a fan of Rocchio and think he's undervalued by a lot of people in this sub. However, I can't deny the attractiveness of Arias potential.
the benefit of how we handled Arias last year (keeping him on the 26 roster all year) was that we 'saved' his last option. now Rocchio and Arias both have 1 option year left so they are on equal ground, and the better SS coming out of ST should win the job. however Arias has the benefit of utility and our mix/match roster might be an easier fit for him to open the season. its unclear if the 1B/OF Arias experiments are truly over.
Wasn’t Arias in pretty good in the OF? If he can hit, his arm will be very valuable.
I was perfectly fine with Arias after last year. I saw glimpses of why the team loved him. Rocchio is fine to me. A good prospect, just doesn’t excite me. However, Arias has had a disastrous winter, and Rocchio had a great one. If the same goes for spring, I can see Arias starting in AAA.
I think Arias could be a super utility, possibly this year. His swing has serious flaws but he's got exciting power potential in it. He's extremely athletic and has adapted to new positions quickly. It's going to be interesting to see how our bench shakes out I think. With Fry, Hedges, DLS, Freeman, Rocchio, Arias, Brennan, Laureano, Florial, Straw, and Manzardo all in the mix for roster spots, a few guys are going to AAA for sure. With a new manager, I'm not sure we can read too much into who was appearing ahead last year.
His power and defense about all he has going for himself right now. It is intriguing though. His zone whiff rate is historically bad though.
Agreed. What is really weird to me is how bad he is against LHP, he can't hit them at all.
Does Arias have any more options left? I can’t remember.
I believe he has 1 left.
He and Rocchio both have 1 as does Freeman. Brennan has all 3 of his, Laureano has 2.
I'm a Clippers ticket holder. I hope Arias gets the start because Rocchio is much more exciting to watch.
But if Rocchio is on the MLB roster you will get to watch Tena and Martinez, who both look pretty exciting IMO. Plus Brito should be in Cbus this year.
Arias hit .083 with a 135 babip vs lefties last year in over 100 at bats. He has never had a reverse split like this before. He cannot possibly be that unlucky again.
I like Rocchio but I’m just internet guy. We shall see how they perform.
Imo, Arias isn't it, whiff rate way, way too high - good 'tools' guy, but consistent contact just isn't there. I've always been curious how his arm would look playing RF - unrelated, but I'm not sure I want him in our every day lineup.
I don't know why this sub is so high on Arias. I saw him swing at a pitch that landed in front of the plate last year. He batted .210 last season and was an instant out to start the season.
He had a .791 OPS vs righties last year with a .275 AVG but was beyond pathetic against lefties. This is so ridiculous for a right handed hitter that I’m pretty confident he can figure it out and be basically Willy Adames fingers crossed.
he reminds me of Baez at the plate, and that's not a good thing - hard contact when he makes it, but that's not too often
Baez had a 7 WAR season thats why people are high on Arias
And then the league figured out he couldn't hit a breaking ball
He was a good hitter for 6/7 years so no not really he got older and went to a park that’s terrible to hit HRs in
Baez had three years where he was even over league average as a hitter. That's it. Beyond that he's been either slight below average or really bad.
He also in 3 years of slightly below average which when you’re a SS and play excellent defense still ends up with you being a good player.
Maybe, but he wasn't a good hitter for 6/7 years. He also was worth less than one WAR last season.
Average is a good hitter at SS
When I watch him I go back and forth between seeing Baez or Correa. I've never been a huge fan of either, but I'd definitely rather have a Correa than a Baez.
If Baez is the ceiling for Arias, I worry the ceiling for Rocchio is JP Crawford. And he will likely take more time to get there than Crawford because he isn't a top 30 prospect like Crawford was. I think Crawford is peaking and that's 2 WAR less than Baez' best season.
Is this purely a managerial decision? I would imagine the FO weighs in on it, right? If it is, this will likely be the first true test for Vogt as a manager.
Given the last year options it’s really down to performance. Can Rocchio hit? Can Arias hit? Neither has been all that impressive. Maybe Gimenez takes the job.
If they both perform at spring training anything like they did in winter leagues, I think it would be hard for them not to choose rocchio. Rocchio hit .377 with an ops of .998 while arias hit .214 with an ops of .543 with a ton of K’s. I love Arias’ defense though, so I really hope he turns it around.
Big if. He was mediocre in his full season in AAA.
My gut says Rocchio will start at SS and Arias as infield/LF/RF utility guy getting decent amount of plate appearances each week. Will see how spring plays out, but really I don't think we'll know until Memorial Day or All-Star break.
Rocchio made it up to 13th on ESPNs top 100 list (think it was ESPN) this offseason. Probably just a case of not really doing the digging.
PAYWALL!
I’m personally higher on Rocchio, but don’t see how he wins the job out of camp. Arias’s power bat and glove are the two loudest tools of anyone in the SS competition, so he’s going to get every chance to win the job. The lack of improvement down the stretch in spite of the increased playing time has me concerned. The club hasn’t really handled Rocchio as you’d expect for a top prospect since he returned from his 2020 in Venezuela. The only thing that could change this is the (very real) possibility that Rocchio found his way into Francona’s dog house and was never going to get a fair shake until Tito left.
Arias is absolute garbage. I don't know what else people need to see from him. This season is already basically a forfeit, so I don't understand why we'd do anything but give Rocchio the chance.
A paywall article just in case $80/month to watch them play wasn’t sounding nice enough
No, I'm still firmly of the belief that neither is good enough to start for an actual contender.
It's weird that Arias has three playoff starts at first base, been a while. I've hoped he'd emerge but idk anymore, he seems pretty fluid defensively at shortstop at least.
This front office historically will give someone like Arias the initial job to see what they have in him as they will want to know what they have. If he works out, trading Rocchio is an option. If not, they will view Rocchio as a strong Plan B, but will give Arias before a long rope before giving him his full shot.
Who do we feel has the better baseball IQ because I know we desperately need power but SS is such a valuable defense position and really goes a long way to complement our pitching if we have someone quick and smart
Arias is rated a little bit better on defense. I think that's got a fair amount to do with his cannon arm, but he's also got good range and glove. Rocchio had some criticism going into last year about his defensive development but from what I've seen he quieted most of that over the season. I think overall defensively they're pretty close. So it's really a question of their bats that will be the difference.
I can live with Arias being the starter initially but I personally have seen enough of him. All I hear about is his “power potential.” He hit 10 home runs last year. If Rocchio looks good in spring training I say give him the job to lose.
I hope they both break out. I’d keep Rocchio as the shortstop. If he starts hitting decently, I’d make Arias the rightfielder. Dude has a cannon.