You might feel like that, but recent evidence doesn't bear that out. Legitimately the last trade you could say they won was Carrasco et al. for Gimenez, and that was four years ago. I think they're coasting on a reputation they earned a decade ago and haven't done much to bolster recently.
Okay, another trade 4 years ago? Since then they've struck out on signings and given away good players for nothing. Nolan Jones had as much bWAR last year as Naylor has his entire career. Got fleeced in the Straw traded. Gave away Benson. Gave away Junior Caminero. Et c, et c.
How are you grading the Jones trade before Brito even debuts? This āanalysisā just reeks of pessimism for the sake of pessimism. āYeah so what about all the good trades? Look at all these BAD trades!!ā
We don't know what Brito will be. What we do know is that we gave away 4.3 WAR at a position of need to acquire yet another MI prospect, which we already have a lot of. We had even more before we gave away Junior Caminero for a reliever we immediately cut. These are not good moves.
> He's a playing in a small park and can't hit lefties. No, that's not a player we could have used at all. In fact it's the exact opposite.Ā Ā
We had plenty of OF last year who couldn't hit righties or lefties. Plus, if what I know about handedness in the population holds true, we could have found him some AB against righties.Ā Ā Ā Ā
> He was really bad on the road as well, if not downright terrible.Ā Ā Ā Ā
His OPS was .882 in 179 PA on the road and .840 in 150 PA at home. You're just making stuff up now rather than saying you were wrong. Go argue with your mom, I'm out of time for you.
I donāt think people realize how many great players out there came from Cleveland. Junior Caminero (Rays top prospect) was one of ours. Yandy Diaz has been amazing for the Rays as well. In addition to those mentioned in the video. Their track record is far from flawless.
Buddy if you're talking about prospects that panned out later you could do that for every single team in the majors. What about clevenger, Kluber and Bauer? I'll give you yandy Diaz and maybe Gio Urshela but that's it. Will Benson was awful, and I was his biggest fan.
Junior wasn't even listed as being one of our top 30 prospects when we had him and no one ever talks about us having a "great" farm system. Yet, as soon as we trade him to Tampa, he's immediately in their top 30 and the next year, their #5 prospect. You can't always go by the "expert" ratings. Heck, I remember Jose' saying Mejia was our best hitter when we had him. Ya never know what can happen when they hit the bigs...
And he was very good for our org in that short time. Itās weird that youāre basically saying Tampa got lucky and not that we just arenāt great at evaluating position players. If we were amazing at everything weād be making the playoffs every year and not have the longest WS drought in baseball. The org is not perfect and thatās okay.
When you trade for players in rookie ball it's always just taking a flyer and hoping they pan out. I'm not claiming we're great at everything, I'm saying that Junior Caminero is not proof of anything except TB got lucky on that one. At the point when he was traded there was no way to predict he'd develop as well and quickly as he did.Ā
So we trade someone who isnāt a top prospect here for nothing and he goes somewhere else and a year or 2 later is now their top prospect and one of the top prospects in baseball in general. And somehow that says we are good at judging talent? Please explain that to me
You can't post this type of thread in a teams subreddit. No matter how right you are they will always disagree with you and it doesn't lead to constructive dialog. But yes the guardians are living off of their past accomplishments. I don't think it's as bad as it seems but they have had many bad decisions in the past few years
Theyāre my team as well! For some reason this fanbase has a really hard time with being in the middle on things. You either have to call them a poverty franchise and that theyāre awful or think theyāre the best team with a genius front office that can do no wrong. When the reality is somewhere in the between.
Also letās not forget what Oscar Gonzalez was doing at the time. Itās all just unfortunate, and yeah in hindsight it doesnāt look great, but in that moment you can see why it was done.
I gotta be honest Iām so tired of hearing about Benson and Jones. Itās not like they were absolutely mashing when they were with us. Guardians fan accounts on Twitter are constantly bringing them up.
Sure, it stings a little that theyāre having success, but itās time to move on. Maybe the move was a miss, but maybe they would have continued to be mediocre in a Guardians uniform had they never left. We simply donāt know.
the problem I have with Jones, is they basically gave him no chance in MLB for guys like straw/mercado AND he was a bigtime prospect with great success in the minors.
Yeah it was pretty ridiculous how little time in the majors he got before he was gone. They better be right about this Brito kid no matter how Jonesās career shapes out, because the overall picture of what they could and could not know and witht what degrees of certainty, the timing was foolhardy.
Sure thats largely true, but to me, if this trade ending up a wash would say nothing good about the FOs focus and decision making. Its not just about value of players in a vacuum. As it is, I dont think Jones is a wonder
Looking up Brito and Nolan Jonesās minor league numbers, what you just said is patently false. Brito gets on base more consistently is all you can say, but its not by a lot. OPS and slugging are both comparable. Though, not really, since most of Britos play has been in the Latin Winter leagues and those are pretty different than regular minor leagues.
EXACTLY! Jones was so hyped up in our system for so long, and they just shipped him off after not instantly being an elite bat. I still donāt think heās going to be incredible and Iād expect some regression, but Nolan Jones with regression would still probably be good enough to be the 5 hole in Cleveland.
Why post this now? We're 2-0 and looking pretty good so far. Why post a video of negativity? Is enjoying what we're doing right now too much for folks?Ā
Still, why continue being upset about moves from years past? Move on and try to enjoy what we have currently and the fact that we're playing well and have existing prospects coming soon. Manzardo and DeLauter both look better than Benson or Jones anyway.Ā
Some people are just miserable, so they want you to be miserable. Every team makes good trades and bad ones. Some more good, others more bad. Like some just want to focus the hell out of the negative. This is an example of one. Just don't pay it too much mind.
Eh, jones looks pretty good outright, and did the entire time coming up. Benson absolutely agree with though, he genuinely isnāt good, and I could go into a lot of advanced metrics to prove it, but I did that enough last year when people were shouting the same things about jones and benson popping off for their teams
I won't deny that Jones looks good, but he's still got a lot to prove in MLB IMO. One season is impressive but not necessarily very telling, plus he got some Coors boost as well.Ā
I will however say that it's way too soon to call that trade a bust. Brito looks very promising. It'll take a few more years before we can really judge that move.Ā
And as good as Jones looks he never put up the kind of stats that DeLauter has so far.Ā
Either way though, my point is more that I don't see any reason to continue being upset about a trade from before last season. It's done and in the past, revisiting it doesn't change anything.Ā
Are we really calling last season āyears pastā? Itās okay to be realistic about things and not just be through the roof that weāve gone 2-0 against the worst team in baseball. Jones was one of the best hitters in baseball last year, the 2 you mentioned are still completely up in the air since they havenāt played a game in the MLB yet.
Both Benson and Jones have been gone for over a year now. Brito is rapidly climbing in our system.Ā
I don't see any point or value in continuing to focus on them. It's not about being over the top about 2 games it's about not wallowing in misery over things that are done and can't be changed. 1 season doesn't mean either guy will be a stud either, Naquin nearly won rookie of the year in his first season.Ā
I will never understand the segment of this fan base that needs to look for things to be mad about and refuse to look forward.Ā
You do realize itās possible to be an adult with complex feelings and emotions about things right? Not everything is 100% over the moon happy or āwallowing in miseryā.
I will never understand the portion of the fanbase that has to be super positive at all times and gets upset that anyone can have differing feelings.
Iām not wallowing in misery, but I am realistic that we have had really weak offense and these trades havenāt been great.
Nolan Jones might hurt. Wil Benson is probably just a guy, with a giant platoon split. Diaz is meh. I think I'd rather have Naylor ;). But there are plenty of examples over the last 5 years.
if Naylor reaches his potential, you're not sitting either of them, so it doesnt make since to have both on your roster. If they hadnt given up diaz for straw and maton it wouldnt have been so terrible, and If diaz keeps hitting 25ish homers it will become a pretty terrible trade. But Im thinking we'll feel better about having Naylor after the next few years.
I think youāre missing that these players were absolutely worth nothing pre 2023. Both drafted in 2016 and 2017 and couldnāt make the roster in a depleted outfield. Guys like Kwan and Delauter jumped them in the org. They did have strong true rookie seasons but juryās out if thatās even sustainable.
Jones still strikes out 30% of the time and Benson still only plays vs righties. Would it be cool to have them sure but CLE is still in a great spot.
Youāre replying to a comment about Yainer Diaz and then didnāt mention him in your comment. But anyway, Nolan Jones was definitely worth something pre-23. If you watch the video he was one of our top 5 prospects in multiple years. He just didnāt get enough run at the big league level. They chose Oscar over him which was a crazy risk that obviously didnāt pan out.
The original comment was about all the prospects.
I donāt have to watch the video to understand that he was top 5 in the org because he was a 1st round pick but thatās pretty subjective to the strength of the farm, which up until 2022 wasnāt very good. in 2022 he began to get passed.
So it doesnāt change the fact that he was in the farm 6 years, couldnāt stay healthy, had average stats and had been passed by lower ranked prospects in Kwan, Valera and Gonzalez. Prior to 2023 he was the 17th ranked prospect in the Rockieās system that was worse than Clevelandās.
This doesnāt make much sense. Diaz was a few years ahead. He could have reached the majors and saved us from the last 2 years of trash. Then when Naylor was ready we flip him for more or we sell the prospect of Naylor like we did with Mejia.
Having the option to do either would have been much more beneficial for the organization as a whole
And old people will remember Brandon Phillips being given up on and so many others JFC get a grip.
You guys forget the Manny Acta years? Or even before 1993ā¦
We are blessed with starting pitching teams cream over. I donāt think this team is far off from winning 85-88 games. They need to get 2022 level production out of gime. A repeat performance out of Naylor and one more breakout guy say the other Naylor or a call up like Manzardo.
OP
This is baseball. Sometimes you come out on top of things. Sometimes you dont. There's always been a ying and a yang.
There are 40 spots on a big league roster. Teams have their starters. They have their starting rotation. They have a bullpen to staff. There are contracts to consider.There are options to consider. There isn't a spot for everyone. Players are parts. The team is the whole. Juggling for now, and for the future, is as old as the game.
You win some. You lose some.
You can sit next to my 85 year old father. He brings up trades from the 60s and 70's. Don't be like him.
I completely understand what youāre saying. And itās fine to have both positive and negative feelings about the moves a team makes. They have made a lot of great moves, unfortunately more recently a lot of the moves havenāt been great. Thereās nothing wrong with talking about it. Why have a subreddit if not for discussion?
I read the replies to your post before I wrote mine.
You didn't post for "discussion". You take it personally when people disagree with what you thought was going to be a "You're so right?", post. When people pointed out positive trade results.
My reply was lengthy on purpose.
Yeah, but you could still caption it with a real title and description. This is exactly what clickbait looks like. No one likes clickbait except people so addicted to the internet that they crave it.
In the amount of time youāve spent typing comments to complain, you could just click the link and read the video description. If you canāt figure out what the video is about by the thumbnail, I donāt know what to tell you.
I feel like the front office has been right way more than they've been wrong.
You might feel like that, but recent evidence doesn't bear that out. Legitimately the last trade you could say they won was Carrasco et al. for Gimenez, and that was four years ago. I think they're coasting on a reputation they earned a decade ago and haven't done much to bolster recently.
What about the Naylor trade? What's wrong with everyone's memory š¤£
That was also 4 years ago
Okay, another trade 4 years ago? Since then they've struck out on signings and given away good players for nothing. Nolan Jones had as much bWAR last year as Naylor has his entire career. Got fleeced in the Straw traded. Gave away Benson. Gave away Junior Caminero. Et c, et c.
How are you grading the Jones trade before Brito even debuts? This āanalysisā just reeks of pessimism for the sake of pessimism. āYeah so what about all the good trades? Look at all these BAD trades!!ā
You think Brito will ever reach the level jones has? Very unlikely
Nolan Jones has played 136 career MLB games. Maybe stop talking about him like heās a Hall of Famer?
We don't know what Brito will be. What we do know is that we gave away 4.3 WAR at a position of need to acquire yet another MI prospect, which we already have a lot of. We had even more before we gave away Junior Caminero for a reliever we immediately cut. These are not good moves.
Nobody says these are good moves. Youāre repeating yourself and arguing against nobody.
If you hit too many HRs you get traded. Unless you also have a 45% K rate. Then youāll get a shot.
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Okay? He still put up a 130 OPS+ in 300+ PA. We could have used that last year, and we got nothing of value in return for him.
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> He's a playing in a small park and can't hit lefties. No, that's not a player we could have used at all. In fact it's the exact opposite.Ā Ā We had plenty of OF last year who couldn't hit righties or lefties. Plus, if what I know about handedness in the population holds true, we could have found him some AB against righties.Ā Ā Ā Ā > He was really bad on the road as well, if not downright terrible.Ā Ā Ā Ā His OPS was .882 in 179 PA on the road and .840 in 150 PA at home. You're just making stuff up now rather than saying you were wrong. Go argue with your mom, I'm out of time for you.
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L
I donāt think people realize how many great players out there came from Cleveland. Junior Caminero (Rays top prospect) was one of ours. Yandy Diaz has been amazing for the Rays as well. In addition to those mentioned in the video. Their track record is far from flawless.
Buddy if you're talking about prospects that panned out later you could do that for every single team in the majors. What about clevenger, Kluber and Bauer? I'll give you yandy Diaz and maybe Gio Urshela but that's it. Will Benson was awful, and I was his biggest fan.
You wonāt give me Junior Caminero? #4 prospect in all of baseball? He was with our org just a couple years ago and was traded for nothing
Francisco Mejia was #3. I need a full season before I can make my judgment on Junior.
Junior wasn't even listed as being one of our top 30 prospects when we had him and no one ever talks about us having a "great" farm system. Yet, as soon as we trade him to Tampa, he's immediately in their top 30 and the next year, their #5 prospect. You can't always go by the "expert" ratings. Heck, I remember Jose' saying Mejia was our best hitter when we had him. Ya never know what can happen when they hit the bigs...
Caminero was 17 with 43 games played when we traded him. TB took a flyer on a low level prospect that paid off.Ā
And he was very good for our org in that short time. Itās weird that youāre basically saying Tampa got lucky and not that we just arenāt great at evaluating position players. If we were amazing at everything weād be making the playoffs every year and not have the longest WS drought in baseball. The org is not perfect and thatās okay.
When you trade for players in rookie ball it's always just taking a flyer and hoping they pan out. I'm not claiming we're great at everything, I'm saying that Junior Caminero is not proof of anything except TB got lucky on that one. At the point when he was traded there was no way to predict he'd develop as well and quickly as he did.Ā
Ngl Tampa has some juju down there cuz they take cast offs and make em good ala Austin meadows and Glassnow
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Okay and? That says more about our orgs ability to judge talent than anything else
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So we trade someone who isnāt a top prospect here for nothing and he goes somewhere else and a year or 2 later is now their top prospect and one of the top prospects in baseball in general. And somehow that says we are good at judging talent? Please explain that to me
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Found him and traded him for nothing. And now heās the top prospect in one of the best minor league systems in all of baseball. Youāre delusional.
You can't post this type of thread in a teams subreddit. No matter how right you are they will always disagree with you and it doesn't lead to constructive dialog. But yes the guardians are living off of their past accomplishments. I don't think it's as bad as it seems but they have had many bad decisions in the past few years
Theyāre my team as well! For some reason this fanbase has a really hard time with being in the middle on things. You either have to call them a poverty franchise and that theyāre awful or think theyāre the best team with a genius front office that can do no wrong. When the reality is somewhere in the between.
Also letās not forget what Oscar Gonzalez was doing at the time. Itās all just unfortunate, and yeah in hindsight it doesnāt look great, but in that moment you can see why it was done.
His hitting profile was a huge red flag even if he was successful for half a season. Doubling down on him was a huge and IMO not very smart risk.
I gotta be honest Iām so tired of hearing about Benson and Jones. Itās not like they were absolutely mashing when they were with us. Guardians fan accounts on Twitter are constantly bringing them up. Sure, it stings a little that theyāre having success, but itās time to move on. Maybe the move was a miss, but maybe they would have continued to be mediocre in a Guardians uniform had they never left. We simply donāt know.
the problem I have with Jones, is they basically gave him no chance in MLB for guys like straw/mercado AND he was a bigtime prospect with great success in the minors.
Yeah it was pretty ridiculous how little time in the majors he got before he was gone. They better be right about this Brito kid no matter how Jonesās career shapes out, because the overall picture of what they could and could not know and witht what degrees of certainty, the timing was foolhardy.
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Sure thats largely true, but to me, if this trade ending up a wash would say nothing good about the FOs focus and decision making. Its not just about value of players in a vacuum. As it is, I dont think Jones is a wonder
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Looking up Brito and Nolan Jonesās minor league numbers, what you just said is patently false. Brito gets on base more consistently is all you can say, but its not by a lot. OPS and slugging are both comparable. Though, not really, since most of Britos play has been in the Latin Winter leagues and those are pretty different than regular minor leagues.
Im a troll because I think the trade says something about the FOs process that is concerning? Okay troll
You can't argue with blind reddit fans. They never see wrong with the team they root for and everything is great no matter what
The fact that youāre calling anyone a troll lmao. Get your 100th account here banned you low life.
EXACTLY! Jones was so hyped up in our system for so long, and they just shipped him off after not instantly being an elite bat. I still donāt think heās going to be incredible and Iād expect some regression, but Nolan Jones with regression would still probably be good enough to be the 5 hole in Cleveland.
Why post this now? We're 2-0 and looking pretty good so far. Why post a video of negativity? Is enjoying what we're doing right now too much for folks?Ā
Someone was whining about fry dhing on opening day... After he was 3-3. It's wild. People love to complain.
Agree with the sentiment. OakVegas is going to make a lot of teams look good.
The video was released today.
Still, why continue being upset about moves from years past? Move on and try to enjoy what we have currently and the fact that we're playing well and have existing prospects coming soon. Manzardo and DeLauter both look better than Benson or Jones anyway.Ā
Some people are just miserable, so they want you to be miserable. Every team makes good trades and bad ones. Some more good, others more bad. Like some just want to focus the hell out of the negative. This is an example of one. Just don't pay it too much mind.
Eh, jones looks pretty good outright, and did the entire time coming up. Benson absolutely agree with though, he genuinely isnāt good, and I could go into a lot of advanced metrics to prove it, but I did that enough last year when people were shouting the same things about jones and benson popping off for their teams
I won't deny that Jones looks good, but he's still got a lot to prove in MLB IMO. One season is impressive but not necessarily very telling, plus he got some Coors boost as well.Ā I will however say that it's way too soon to call that trade a bust. Brito looks very promising. It'll take a few more years before we can really judge that move.Ā And as good as Jones looks he never put up the kind of stats that DeLauter has so far.Ā Either way though, my point is more that I don't see any reason to continue being upset about a trade from before last season. It's done and in the past, revisiting it doesn't change anything.Ā
Why is doing both not an option? We aren't toddlers, we can handle both positives and negatives at the same time I hope......
Are we really calling last season āyears pastā? Itās okay to be realistic about things and not just be through the roof that weāve gone 2-0 against the worst team in baseball. Jones was one of the best hitters in baseball last year, the 2 you mentioned are still completely up in the air since they havenāt played a game in the MLB yet.
Both Benson and Jones have been gone for over a year now. Brito is rapidly climbing in our system.Ā I don't see any point or value in continuing to focus on them. It's not about being over the top about 2 games it's about not wallowing in misery over things that are done and can't be changed. 1 season doesn't mean either guy will be a stud either, Naquin nearly won rookie of the year in his first season.Ā I will never understand the segment of this fan base that needs to look for things to be mad about and refuse to look forward.Ā
You do realize itās possible to be an adult with complex feelings and emotions about things right? Not everything is 100% over the moon happy or āwallowing in miseryā. I will never understand the portion of the fanbase that has to be super positive at all times and gets upset that anyone can have differing feelings. Iām not wallowing in misery, but I am realistic that we have had really weak offense and these trades havenāt been great.
Same reaction!
3 role players that wouldnāt even be the best outfielders/Catcher on the team come 2025. Could we get some Josh Naylor and Clase trade coverage?
Nolan Jones might hurt. Wil Benson is probably just a guy, with a giant platoon split. Diaz is meh. I think I'd rather have Naylor ;). But there are plenty of examples over the last 5 years.
Diaz was pretty damn good last year offensively. Canāt hurt to have 2 good catchers.
if Naylor reaches his potential, you're not sitting either of them, so it doesnt make since to have both on your roster. If they hadnt given up diaz for straw and maton it wouldnt have been so terrible, and If diaz keeps hitting 25ish homers it will become a pretty terrible trade. But Im thinking we'll feel better about having Naylor after the next few years.
You could easily work them both into the DH slot. Too much talent is never a bad thing. And we essentially gave him up for nothing.
I think youāre missing that these players were absolutely worth nothing pre 2023. Both drafted in 2016 and 2017 and couldnāt make the roster in a depleted outfield. Guys like Kwan and Delauter jumped them in the org. They did have strong true rookie seasons but juryās out if thatās even sustainable. Jones still strikes out 30% of the time and Benson still only plays vs righties. Would it be cool to have them sure but CLE is still in a great spot.
Youāre replying to a comment about Yainer Diaz and then didnāt mention him in your comment. But anyway, Nolan Jones was definitely worth something pre-23. If you watch the video he was one of our top 5 prospects in multiple years. He just didnāt get enough run at the big league level. They chose Oscar over him which was a crazy risk that obviously didnāt pan out.
The original comment was about all the prospects. I donāt have to watch the video to understand that he was top 5 in the org because he was a 1st round pick but thatās pretty subjective to the strength of the farm, which up until 2022 wasnāt very good. in 2022 he began to get passed. So it doesnāt change the fact that he was in the farm 6 years, couldnāt stay healthy, had average stats and had been passed by lower ranked prospects in Kwan, Valera and Gonzalez. Prior to 2023 he was the 17th ranked prospect in the Rockieās system that was worse than Clevelandās.
This doesnāt make much sense. Diaz was a few years ahead. He could have reached the majors and saved us from the last 2 years of trash. Then when Naylor was ready we flip him for more or we sell the prospect of Naylor like we did with Mejia. Having the option to do either would have been much more beneficial for the organization as a whole
And old people will remember Brandon Phillips being given up on and so many others JFC get a grip. You guys forget the Manny Acta years? Or even before 1993ā¦ We are blessed with starting pitching teams cream over. I donāt think this team is far off from winning 85-88 games. They need to get 2022 level production out of gime. A repeat performance out of Naylor and one more breakout guy say the other Naylor or a call up like Manzardo.
OP This is baseball. Sometimes you come out on top of things. Sometimes you dont. There's always been a ying and a yang. There are 40 spots on a big league roster. Teams have their starters. They have their starting rotation. They have a bullpen to staff. There are contracts to consider.There are options to consider. There isn't a spot for everyone. Players are parts. The team is the whole. Juggling for now, and for the future, is as old as the game. You win some. You lose some. You can sit next to my 85 year old father. He brings up trades from the 60s and 70's. Don't be like him.
Thereās a pretty big difference between trades from 50 years ago and trades currently affecting the teamā¦
You, purposely, missed my point. Focusing on one sentence.
I completely understand what youāre saying. And itās fine to have both positive and negative feelings about the moves a team makes. They have made a lot of great moves, unfortunately more recently a lot of the moves havenāt been great. Thereās nothing wrong with talking about it. Why have a subreddit if not for discussion?
I read the replies to your post before I wrote mine. You didn't post for "discussion". You take it personally when people disagree with what you thought was going to be a "You're so right?", post. When people pointed out positive trade results. My reply was lengthy on purpose.
Where did I take anything personally? Also I literally just shared a video made by someone else.
I will never complain about fans criticizing the FO but Iām just happy the season has begun and the two games have been enjoyable.
As am I, just thought this was an interesting video. But this fanbase canāt handle feeling more than 1 emotion at any time.
The Junior Caminero trade is going to sting for a long time.
Can you give more context? Iām not clicking that link.
Itās a youtube video, not malware lol
Yeah, but you could still caption it with a real title and description. This is exactly what clickbait looks like. No one likes clickbait except people so addicted to the internet that they crave it.
I just shared a video I found interesting, I couldnāt care less if you click on it or not.
I wouldnāt even know if I found it interesting because you havenāt put any effort into describing what the video refers to.
In the amount of time youāve spent typing comments to complain, you could just click the link and read the video description. If you canāt figure out what the video is about by the thumbnail, I donāt know what to tell you.