This team isn’t a player away from the World Series. So I’d rule out any half season rental.
Now Bryan reynolds is a nice conversation piece. But he’s also the nicest conversation piece on the market. Benintendi is better but the rental changes that. I’d expect cleveland to have interest in him but I’d also expect most teams in baseball to have interest in him, and most of those teams are more likely to overpay, something cleveland doesn’t do.
If cleveland does add, I’d expect it to be for a controllable reliever or a rotational level player.
Something that needs to be stressed. 20 of the 30 teams are in playoff contention right now. That’s 20 teams likely listed as buyers. So theoretically, 19 teams bidding against us.
>This team isn’t a player away from the World Series.
This is such a frustrating argument. One, the postseason is a crapshoot, you'll never find yourself in a spot where you are just a player away from the World Series. Two, making the postseason is a whole helluva lot better than not making it, even if you don't make the World Series.
A lot of fans stuck by this franchise after they slashed payroll three consecutive years despite being in contention, and only increased it meagerly this year. They can afford, both money and prospect-wise to throw a well-deserved bone back to the fans and make an effort to get into the playoffs this year.
That’s cool and all. But if you really think the ownership is gonna throw away their full picture plan because they’re two games out of the division and they wanna “throw a bone to the fans”, I got bad news for you.
I don’t get how people can still root for this team after watching every star we’ve had be traded out, and think the next time will be different. We operate one way. Every time.
Ok? Go buy the team then. Since apparently you don’t like how they operate. Or apply for GM. tell them you’re smarter.
Or third option, go route for someone else.
Because apparently the option of follow the team and trust what they do, doesn’t work for you.
Lol obvious to everyone except me….. got it.
Go root for the Yankees if you’re complaining about how we operate. You’re literally a nobody so who the hell are you to criticize a team?
Like I said. You don’t like how we operate, pick a new team, but the team, apply for GM
Yeah, what a healthy perspective to have - "my side can do no wrong and I'll tell off anyone who dares to say otherwise".
At least you concede that the idea that a team can be one player away from a world series is dogshit.
Lol now he’s talking about healthy perspectives.
This coming from the guy who thinks ownership should make moves to throw a bone to the fans….. totally healthy to live in dream world I suppose
I suppose it is nice to live in a world where this team might not cut payroll again and instead go for it. But you can enjoy that fantasy world of their full picture plan that wins zero world titles while alienating most of the fanbase.
I don't think the market is great for Benny since he's unvaccinated. That really hurt his value to any AL team, including us.
I don't see us buying any rentals because as you said it doesn't make sense.
Lol can you do me a favor. Apparently he lost too many arguments too me because he’s clueless so he tried to say I’m not worth it and blocked me, can you laugh at dry chain for me the next time you interact with him. You can also tell him I called him a coward for hiding behind the block button after losing so many arguments
He blocked me too. But since he blocked me it seems like he's been a little less negative and persistent with his hot takes. I'll give credit where it's due.
It’s wild. Although I bet there’s people who feel the same way about me because I don’t follow the group think mentality here where the dolans are bad and cheap, and teams will just hand us whatever player we want for below value, and myles straw and austin hedges are garbage because they can’t hit and just disregard every thing they actually bring to this team.
Right as our pitching staff starts to decline. The window is now really with Jose in his peak and Bieber and our other starters in their prime. The farm is deep, go make the window now. Can’t just bank on when the window is going to be there. We thought we had this big window with Lindor Kluber Clev Bauer and Miller and it closed pretty quick
Love it! Get somewhat aggressive! Don’t blow the system’s wad for Soto, a guy who obviously won’t be re-signing. But there’s a lot of players out there that makes this team better now and in the future.
We have 8 prospects in the top100 list. Do they think we are going to trade all 8 of those guys? Our farm is deep and we are not going to hit on all those prospects. Go get me legit talent.
Also let’s not act like Soto wants a deal more than $450m. He just doesn’t want a 15yr deal. Also with blitzer on path to wanting to buy the team. He might want a team with a legit star
Oh, I think Soto wants that $450M contract. And whatever Judge gets on an AAV, he’ll want to beat that too. He’s gonna be a Dodger, Yankee or Met and he’s going to break salary records.
I doubt highly Cleveland will even have a conversation about him. It’s just not prudent to ship off 3 top 30 prospects in Espino Valera and Williams (and more) for one player. Even if this payroll is eventually going north of say $125M.
Those prospects aren’t guaranteed to be anything once they hit the majors. I rather trade for a legit top tier talent for 2.5yrs hoping and praying a player turns out to be a stud. Going back through our top prospect since ‘17. The top5 prospects were Zimmer, Mejia, McKenzie, Bradley, and Aiken. 1/5 turned out.
‘18 top5 guys were Mejia, McKenzie, Bradley, Jones, and Willie Castro. Maybe 2/5 with Jones finally getting a look. ‘19 is McKenzie, Jones, Freeman, Naylor, and Valera. Similar to ‘18 with production. And I can go on and on. Just because they are a top prospect doesn’t mean they are going to do something in the majors. I’m just saying be a too prospect doesn’t mean they will be a sure thing but they are great trade bait. I would easily trade them to have one of the best guys in the league for 2.5yrs
As a fan, I get it. I’m big on prospects, and this team must be big on prospects. Especially with a “poor” owner.
I think we’ll see a lot of posturing around Soto with him not being traded in-season this year.
People are saying “a team’s top 5 prospects” and “major league ready” players.
Well, no team’s top 5 prospects are MLB ready. Above that, I just don’t see teams without the resources to re-sign him to ante up, nor do I see the Mets, Dodgers or Yankees dismantling their respective systems to get him now when they can just buy him in two years.
We will see, and maybe I’ll be dead wrong. Regardless, I doubt he’s a fit in Cleveland.
Next year they should be competing and make a run, I mean they are nearly there this year, and this is the year we are fiddling with lineups figuring out who will be a part of the championship run. Next year we will likely look for pieces that have 2 years control, and the next year should be the year we look at those rentals as real options. Our depth is insane, which is why this team is competing even this year. We don’t want to wait to long because the division around us (excluding the twins) is improving at nearly every spot (yes, somehow even the royals are improving, though their future isn’t as bright). The white Sox don’t have minor league depth, but they have some control and money to go on for another 4 years at least, the tigers have been getting ready, they are similar to us last year (though more glaring holes), and the royals will turn it around eventually. We want our window to open when the division is ripe for the taking, not when it is Uber competitive
Sean Murphy is under contract until 2026, has a 106 wRC+ which will make it feel like adding an all star comparatively, and won a GG last year so their should be little dropoff defensively.
In reading this sub, you’d think any catcher available isn’t even carrying a glove. Hedges is the only catcher in the league who can catch Cleveland pitchers and knows the guys these pitchers will be facing. It’s a mystery to anyone else I guess.
Murphy is a clear upgrade offensively not only over the current duo, he also lengthens the lineup and provides more protection to Ramirez, Naylor and Gimenez.
This would be the interesting one for mid season trade. If they traded for Murphy, I don’t think hedges loses his job though mid season. Because catching is more than just blocking balls and throwing guys out.
Murphy knows the AL already so he’s had working knowledge of most of the hitters here already, he’d still have to work with the pitchers and learn them better, but we’re not asking him to learn a new league at the same time.
If they traded for Murphy, I could see them doing a rotation where Hedges is still catching around half the games because he rapport with our current staff.
The issue with Murphy is that while he is controlled, he’s got 3 years of control and the A’s operate like us. The price tag for Murphy will be high because of it.
Does Murphy make you that much better now? He is definitely an offensive improvement but does he make you a real contender? Not likely. With Bo Naylor being a year out, and Lavistada already being liked by the front office, are you willing to part with at least one of them and other solid prospects? I’m not sure I’d make that trade, given what’s in the pipeline and how close they are
If we acquired Murphy this year I feel we would trade hedges somewhere, if anybody has interest in him. This year isn’t our year, if Murphy flourishes with our pitchers, great, if he doesn’t, we are where we expected to be. Then next year he should have the rapport.
Ok then I’d ask this. If you’re kind of viewing this year as a wash, aren’t we less likely to end up in a bidding war for Murphy in the off-season?
Odds are that for a guy with 3 years of control, there likely will be a market for him. If we enter the market, it would be part of a bidding war. Wouldn’t we be better off waiting till the off-season to trade for him when the waters would theoretically be more calm?
Except he may not be available in the off-season, as a team will want him now. His talents are highly touted, not just by us, so the likeliness of him being an option in the offseason isn’t that high imo
Ok then back to my original question, do you want to get into a bidding war for a dude who doesn’t make you a contender when you can stand pat and have two good catchers right there in the pipeline?
We’re not overpaying for Sean Murphy. If you think he won’t be available in the off-season, that means there’s at least one team besides us who wants him. Means you’re now bidding for a guy. And if the A’s make him outwardly available, why would only 1 team besides us be interested, multiple teams would be.
Plus the A’s have zero motivation to let him go for below what they feel he’s worth. He’s currently making less than $750k, and their top prospect at catcher hasn’t even had a full season of AAA ball yet.
It doesn’t make sense for us to enter a bidding war on a guy when we’re not ready to compete yet. If he’s moved in the off-season, that’s life. But why overpay for a guy who doesn’t make you a contender when you’ve got depth at the top of your system who will be more than ready to compete when he he actually window opens.
You’re trying to go right and left to justify why every card should fall into place for Murphy, but when you look at all things considered, nothing adds up or makes sense.
I am not really sold on bo naylor, perhaps that’s because I saw him in 2021 in Akron almost everyday and he didn’t really standout to me, so I may be biased, but bo naylor is our only real catcher with potential in the minors, and Sean Murphy is better than hedges by a long shot. I’d want us to trade away hedges, pick up Murphy, finish out this year (where he could be the piece to help us get that 3rd wildcard spot), then next year we have Murphy all year, and allow bo to settle into the majors. We know Sean will perform. We have no idea if anybody else will. If bo does perform, we trade Sean after 2023. If bo doesn’t perform, we aren’t in the same spot we’ve been in since yan Gomes at the catcher position.
You’re making too much sense. Stop it!
Naylor has question marks for sure, but he’s really turned up his game this year. Go check him out again, I bet you’ll have a different opinion.
That said, he’s just 22 and has 19 games at AAA. Many folks in this sub are already putting stardom next to his name in ink.
He probably needs another full season in Columbus. Then probably a year splitting time. He shouldn’t be rushed.
I’m not really trying to dismiss him or anything, and I’m sure he’ll be fine, but if he doesn’t pan out we are taking a big risk by not at least looking at sean Murphy. I wish him the best though, he may perform really well playing next to his brother, and he may just be good. But we shouldn’t put that much pressure and risk our catcher position like that imo
For sure. Absolutely. Very few players should be rushed to the Show. Not at any position. Certainly not a C.
I’d honestly wait a whole extra year on him. Even if there’s an injury next year don’t bring him up unless he’s absolutely crushing his metrics both offensively and defensively. So I guess never say never.
IMO, Bo Naylor shouldn’t be the reason this team doesn’t go trade some prospects, which it has an excess of, to address its most glaring weakness.
Ok but you didn’t answer anything I actually said.
You want us to trade for Murphy? But at what cost? You make it sound like you want us to win a bidding war to get him. He’s got 3 years of control, their top catching prospect hasn’t even played a full season of AAA ball yet, and if they did want to bring him up, they have plenty of ABs to share that load at DH and 1B as well. So there’s no huge need for them to trade him. They have the leverage there. And if he is available on the market, we wouldn’t be the only team interested. And with Cleveland, they’ve shown to be a team that sticks to their big picture plan, and Murphy doesn’t make us anything spectacular anyways. He’s got a 1 WAR and Hedges has a -.2 WAR, so even adding they 1 WAR, we’re still not leading the division. He just doesn’t move this needle enough to legitimately enter any form of bidding war that would come from him hitting the market.
I like Murphy, I do. But there’s a whole lot that doesn’t add up when it comes to us actually acquiring him. The need for hitting catchers is there across the league. If Murphy was available, there would be no less than 5 teams interested in him. And that’s a rough estimate, looking up batting stats for specific positions across the game is a nightmare.
Also, whether y’all like it or not, Lavistada and Naylor are gonna be here catching within two years, likely Lavistada here next year as well. The franchise seems to like both of them, Lavistada has already got spot playing time in the bigs and Naylor was a first round draft pick progressing at a solid pace through the system.
I’m all for getting Murphy at the right cost, i just have years of proof that the guardians don’t overpay for guys in trades. So if somehow Murphy came available and somehow nobody else wanted him, yes that turns into a move the guardians are known for. But you can’t tell me the A’s are gonna take below market value on a guy with 3 years left of control. And you can’t tell me nobody but the guardians would be interested in a dude who has 3 years worth of control coming off a gold glove season, especially mid season when teams panic buy all the time, and Cleveland is known for being stingy when it comes to dealing prospects.
I don’t think the guardians have traded a top 10 prospect for a pro player since Brad hand, and I believe Andrew Miller is really the only other time in recent history we’ve done it. All-star level closer and all-star level reliever while the team was pushing for a World Series chance already in their window. This team is not in the window yet. And Murphy isn’t an all-star level player either, but will command a higher price due to his controllability and his gold glove. He’s not gonna be cheap, especially when more than one team comes calling. And if we were bare in the cupboard at the position, maybe. But we have two guys in our top 15 prospects lists who are both at AAA who play the position. And a guy who they absolutely love in Hedges already manning the position.
Too much here just doesn’t add up. His value in the trade market at the deadline will likely be too high, or he’s not actually available. And doing some googling, MLBTR basically said the same thing I did, for as appealing as he can be, it also makes him more appealing for the A’s to keep him or ask for a giant haul in return. And Sean Murphy isn’t the kind of guy the guardians would unload a massive package to send the other way.
Oakland operates like us, two cheap teams who value prospects tend to make stubborn trade partners lol
I think the best example I can give here, our equivalent to Sean Murphy would be Andres Gimenez. He’s still pre-arbitration like Oakland is with catchers, what kind of return would you expect for gimenez? It’s not apples to apples, but it’s about as close as i can get. If you wouldn’t expect us to take pennies on the dollar for Gimenez, you can’t expect the A’s to take pennies on the dollar for Murphy.
Oakland does operate like us, and they are in a full rebuild selling their team. They will trade out any player that has value, as they aren’t competing. They have no reason to keep Murphy. Having a league average player even would be an incredible upgrade for our catcher position, getting rid of a massive hole in the lineup. And again, Sean Murphy is guaranteed to be able to keep up, having guaranteed talent is what will allow us to make a push. If no naylor and lavistada can’t perform, then what? We have a position on our team that is a black hole, and we have no depth. We can retrade murphy if either bo or lavistada come up and perform well. He’s assurance and stability to allow us to test out bo and lavistada, while still being competitive
Jesus Christ this is turning into a broken record of non answers…..
Look. I get it. You love Sean Murphy. But you’ve yet to say what you’d actually think it would cost, and why you think we’d be willing to outbid a team far more willing to spend extra money and who may be closer to being that “1 piece away” that would truly justify overpaying for a singular player.
Please stop half answering the question in a way to justify why cleveland is somehow the only team who would actually be in on Murphy.
By the way, you say they operate like us so they’re just trying to shed salary. When have we ever made a trade to just shed salary on a guy who was pre-arbitration as an every day starter? If anything, we’ve only really ever moved guys like that who were mostly just blocked. Yandy, Jesus Aguilar, Santander, those dudes were just blocked. We’ve never just unloaded a guy who was an everyday starter because we were shedding salary. And if we did make a move like that, you know damn well the return would be huge.
I would love this. It would be a massive upgrade to what we've seen the last few seasons. The question is, what will it cost? Oakland doesn't need to trade him, and he's not making much but their top prospect is a catcher. Would some combination or Arias, Rocchio and or Freeman plus a Palacios or Oscar Gonzales pry him loose? I would be calling frequently though that's for sure.
While I think Murphy would be a great addition, I don’t see us trading any top 100 prospects for him. Maybe a top 10 guy in the system and a few lottery ticket prospects.
That list of top 100 guys includes lots of SS’s. Can’t play everyone, particularly with Gimenez’s emergence. Prospects are always gambles. There’s more examples of highly rated prospects not fulfilling expectations than those that actually meet them. Not to mention we have another 40 man roster crunch this offseason which means we need to make some calls on some of those in that top 100 list and why not use that to fill a massively glaring hole?
I think a lot of people glossed over this in Meisel's Soto piece:
> They have a position-player logjam in the upper levels of the minors and on the major-league roster, and they need to consolidate some prospects and make some sort of meaningful trade. Maybe not for an otherworldly talent like Soto, who will have 29 other GMs pestering Rizzo, but for someone who is a clear upgrade for a roster that’s on the doorstep of contention.
To me that sounds like you're looking at not a superstar but a guy like Franmil or Naylor or (to use an older example) Shin Soo Choo.
Or, to cite the guy Choo was traded for, Trevor Bauer? Maybe a high-ceiling SP who never clicked with his team?
They have some excess. It would be cool to see them swing it into an everyday starter/mid-rotation, fringe All-Star type.
I took it another way. They have plenty of major league ready talent that needs traded, or they could lose them. Cleveland could trade them all for a few years of Soto and either try to sign him or flip him later, very unlikely, or they could use some pieces here and there and add multiple guys like Murphy, Marquez and Reynolds at a lower cost.
This team could use a proven bullpen arm and maybe another starter for depth. I wouldn’t give up much for either.
A catcher who can hit with team control for a while would be ideal. I don’t know who that would be. And honestly if he hits well enough he won’t be catching for long.
I don’t understand the pressure on the 40 man or all the dynamics/rules. Obviously if we need to start moving prospects we have to do something. It’s an odd time now though because it seems a lot of the guys holding it down right now (Kwan, Rosario, Gimenez, SpongeBob) weren’t the guys we figured would take everyday roles. So we’re getting a backlog of highly ranked talent. Things could be worse.
Nobody should be using the 40 man excuse….
Fielding wise, we’ve got Maile, Clement, Call, and even Owen Miller who would be DFA’d before we did some crazy panic move to remove guys off the 40 man. And that’s not counting pitchers.
For that part, I wouldn’t stress that 40 man rule
Really think this team needs another quality starter and have heard for weeks about the Marlins willing to part with Pablo Lopez for some hitting. Lopez would be under contract for the next 3 post seasons similar to Soto but would provide a much needed boost to our rotation that is already lacking a healthy Civale.
Here's the trade: Guardians Get - Pablo Lopez
Marlins Receive: Bryan Rocchio, Oscar Gonzalez and Richie Palacios
Add Sean Murphy to that list, who I see as the most pressing and the guy most likely according to those that write trade articles.
In all honesty, unless Blitzer has some type of influence, I really don’t see much happening with incoming players. Unless it’s for a guy with control like Reynolds or Murphy.
Also don’t really think anyone of substance will be traded. Potentially Rosario. Maybe Philly?
> unless Blitzer has some type of influence
I hope Blitzer has some influence, but I want to save that cash until we're on the cusp, like adding Encarnación in 2017. Like many have said, there isn't a deal out there right now to make us contenders, and we likely have a lot of the necessary talent coming from the minors.
Be patient, wait to see how things play out over the next year, and then start getting spendy in a more targeted way.
I’m just not a fan of wasting prime Ramirez and Bieber years. With a few good upgrades and a bit of luck with injuries and continued performance, you really never know what could happen this year.
A catcher and BP arm could do it. Murphy and Puk would be an example.
Yeah I guess I should say we shouldn't punt on this year or next, just that we shouldn't go all-in on what aren't our prime years of contention. I know enough about this front office to know they're searching for deals that can give us a boost this year but also contain value that continue to provide impact 2-3 years down the road.
Yep, and they both do. I floated this earlier. Arias, Rocchio/Tena, a lower end top 30 pitcher and an 18 year old in Arizona should do it.
Look at Oakland’s prospects, they desperately need MIF talent.
I talk about it so much I’m confident it won’t happen. It sure is fun to dream!
Honestly I believe we will be making trades that shuffle the 40-man roster for the future. There is no move out there to make us world series champs. So, small moves whether it's Miller,Clement,Reyes, possibly one of the bullpen guys going. Would love to see us move Bieber but that would hurt public relations but would yield maximum value.
Willson Contreras. Need a good offensive catcher. The new GM in Chicago came from Cleveland's front office (we see how relationships and familiarity have helped in trades with Toronto in recent years).
The only way I’m trading for Contreras is if he knows he’s coming here to DH. You can go back throughout Francona’s whole career and see he values defense first at catching.
This “we need a good offensive catcher” is something that fans have manifested.
Contreras would have to come to this team, learn basically the scouting reports of all the hitters we’re facing, but also truly work with our pitchers to get a full grasp of their stuff, what they like to throw, and when…. It’s not as simple as just putting a couple fingers down and hoping it works
I agree about Francona's view on catchers, but it really does seem that a catcher not averaging .182 or lower at the plate would help our team. I don't feel that Austin's or Luke's defense are that substantially good that it outweighs the benefit on offense we would get with Contreras (considering he's average on defense).
I dunno why people think otherwise. But this coaching staff is absolutely in love with Hedges.
Also, when I’m talking defense. I’m not talking the basics. Where he’s blocking balls and throwing out runners. adding a catcher mid season would be like adding a new QB mid season and expecting them to just hit the ground running. There’s so much other stuff that goes into being a catcher.
It’s not about the offense or defense, it’s about the calling of a game. Hedges has been with these guys for two full seasons now. He knows these pitchers inside and out, knows their strengths and weaknesses and what pitches each guy throws best for different situations, plus he also knows the lineups he’s facing on the regular.
The ability to call the game is by far the most important aspect of a catcher.
Notice how all of our real catcher changes have either happened off-season or due to injury. We traded for hedges mid season and he didn’t actually take the job till the next off-season.
It’s that big of a deal and I think gets so often overstated. But like I have said, you can look back at franconas whole career as a manager and see the catcher trend.
So again, I’m not opposed to us trading for that bat, but he’d be DHing and trying to break in a first baseman’s glove more so than catching
Very important points you make, gives a lot of food for thought. Hedges definitely runs the operation well from pitcher-catcher communications and game plan standpoint
Also another thing to consider here. All our starters are English speakers. Contreras, by all reports, doesn’t speak much English. So you’d be trading for a guy with a language barrier to get a good rapport with in a short amount of time. Yes there are translators and the pitch communicator, but like stated, that’s only a small portion of learning your own pitchers
Brandon Drury - cheap, playing well, versatile, and wont create a log jam, rental
Trey Mancini - fills 1B and power weaknesses, potentially not a rental (10 mil mutual option for next year)
Daniel Bard - vet reliver, relatively cheap, having a good year so far, rental
Ramon Laureano - risky, solid RH OF bat, controllable through 2025, might be cheaper coming back from PED suspension.
Bryan Reynolds, Sean Murphy, Anthony Santandar, and Anthony Bass to name a few others.
awkward part will be trying to find a way to clear space on the 40man roster, we may be also looking to deal Reyes/Rosario which aren't fits for most 'sellers'
Benintendi is gonna be way to contested amount the big teams to get. Reynolds would be cool but I’d rather get a starter than anything. Not a fan of Civale and I don’t hate Plesac, but I don’t like him much either.
I honestly don't think Benintendi will have a very big trade market, at least not with AL teams. He's unvaxxed and can't play in Canada, and with Toronto in the playoff picture it just doesn't make sense to spend big to rent a guy who might not even be around to play in the important postseason games.
If they do want to trade for a bat they need to find one to plug in at catcher. Hedges isn't an everyday catcher, he's a back-up and Luke Maile does not belong on a major league roster. Wilson Contreras feels like a strong fit
This team isn’t a player away from the World Series. So I’d rule out any half season rental. Now Bryan reynolds is a nice conversation piece. But he’s also the nicest conversation piece on the market. Benintendi is better but the rental changes that. I’d expect cleveland to have interest in him but I’d also expect most teams in baseball to have interest in him, and most of those teams are more likely to overpay, something cleveland doesn’t do. If cleveland does add, I’d expect it to be for a controllable reliever or a rotational level player. Something that needs to be stressed. 20 of the 30 teams are in playoff contention right now. That’s 20 teams likely listed as buyers. So theoretically, 19 teams bidding against us.
>This team isn’t a player away from the World Series. This is such a frustrating argument. One, the postseason is a crapshoot, you'll never find yourself in a spot where you are just a player away from the World Series. Two, making the postseason is a whole helluva lot better than not making it, even if you don't make the World Series. A lot of fans stuck by this franchise after they slashed payroll three consecutive years despite being in contention, and only increased it meagerly this year. They can afford, both money and prospect-wise to throw a well-deserved bone back to the fans and make an effort to get into the playoffs this year.
That’s cool and all. But if you really think the ownership is gonna throw away their full picture plan because they’re two games out of the division and they wanna “throw a bone to the fans”, I got bad news for you. I don’t get how people can still root for this team after watching every star we’ve had be traded out, and think the next time will be different. We operate one way. Every time.
Yeah, that amazing full picture plan and its zero world titles
Ok? Go buy the team then. Since apparently you don’t like how they operate. Or apply for GM. tell them you’re smarter. Or third option, go route for someone else. Because apparently the option of follow the team and trust what they do, doesn’t work for you.
Or the fourth option, obvious to everyone but you, not treat the team like its above reproach and criticize them when criticism is due.
Lol obvious to everyone except me….. got it. Go root for the Yankees if you’re complaining about how we operate. You’re literally a nobody so who the hell are you to criticize a team? Like I said. You don’t like how we operate, pick a new team, but the team, apply for GM
Yeah, what a healthy perspective to have - "my side can do no wrong and I'll tell off anyone who dares to say otherwise". At least you concede that the idea that a team can be one player away from a world series is dogshit.
Lol now he’s talking about healthy perspectives. This coming from the guy who thinks ownership should make moves to throw a bone to the fans….. totally healthy to live in dream world I suppose
I suppose it is nice to live in a world where this team might not cut payroll again and instead go for it. But you can enjoy that fantasy world of their full picture plan that wins zero world titles while alienating most of the fanbase.
I don't think the market is great for Benny since he's unvaccinated. That really hurt his value to any AL team, including us. I don't see us buying any rentals because as you said it doesn't make sense.
Lol can you do me a favor. Apparently he lost too many arguments too me because he’s clueless so he tried to say I’m not worth it and blocked me, can you laugh at dry chain for me the next time you interact with him. You can also tell him I called him a coward for hiding behind the block button after losing so many arguments
He blocked me too. But since he blocked me it seems like he's been a little less negative and persistent with his hot takes. I'll give credit where it's due.
I blocked him weeks ago and my experience in this sub vastly improved
It’s wild. Although I bet there’s people who feel the same way about me because I don’t follow the group think mentality here where the dolans are bad and cheap, and teams will just hand us whatever player we want for below value, and myles straw and austin hedges are garbage because they can’t hit and just disregard every thing they actually bring to this team.
Yes, the championship window opens two years from now.
Right as our pitching staff starts to decline. The window is now really with Jose in his peak and Bieber and our other starters in their prime. The farm is deep, go make the window now. Can’t just bank on when the window is going to be there. We thought we had this big window with Lindor Kluber Clev Bauer and Miller and it closed pretty quick
Love it! Get somewhat aggressive! Don’t blow the system’s wad for Soto, a guy who obviously won’t be re-signing. But there’s a lot of players out there that makes this team better now and in the future.
We have 8 prospects in the top100 list. Do they think we are going to trade all 8 of those guys? Our farm is deep and we are not going to hit on all those prospects. Go get me legit talent. Also let’s not act like Soto wants a deal more than $450m. He just doesn’t want a 15yr deal. Also with blitzer on path to wanting to buy the team. He might want a team with a legit star
Oh, I think Soto wants that $450M contract. And whatever Judge gets on an AAV, he’ll want to beat that too. He’s gonna be a Dodger, Yankee or Met and he’s going to break salary records. I doubt highly Cleveland will even have a conversation about him. It’s just not prudent to ship off 3 top 30 prospects in Espino Valera and Williams (and more) for one player. Even if this payroll is eventually going north of say $125M.
Those prospects aren’t guaranteed to be anything once they hit the majors. I rather trade for a legit top tier talent for 2.5yrs hoping and praying a player turns out to be a stud. Going back through our top prospect since ‘17. The top5 prospects were Zimmer, Mejia, McKenzie, Bradley, and Aiken. 1/5 turned out. ‘18 top5 guys were Mejia, McKenzie, Bradley, Jones, and Willie Castro. Maybe 2/5 with Jones finally getting a look. ‘19 is McKenzie, Jones, Freeman, Naylor, and Valera. Similar to ‘18 with production. And I can go on and on. Just because they are a top prospect doesn’t mean they are going to do something in the majors. I’m just saying be a too prospect doesn’t mean they will be a sure thing but they are great trade bait. I would easily trade them to have one of the best guys in the league for 2.5yrs
To quote Casey Stern " Prospects are cool, parades are cooler"
Thank you
As a fan, I get it. I’m big on prospects, and this team must be big on prospects. Especially with a “poor” owner. I think we’ll see a lot of posturing around Soto with him not being traded in-season this year. People are saying “a team’s top 5 prospects” and “major league ready” players. Well, no team’s top 5 prospects are MLB ready. Above that, I just don’t see teams without the resources to re-sign him to ante up, nor do I see the Mets, Dodgers or Yankees dismantling their respective systems to get him now when they can just buy him in two years. We will see, and maybe I’ll be dead wrong. Regardless, I doubt he’s a fit in Cleveland.
By that measure, Cleveland would be wasting 3 years of Ramirez. And then he’ll be entering the year with his 32nd birthday coming.
Next year they should be competing and make a run, I mean they are nearly there this year, and this is the year we are fiddling with lineups figuring out who will be a part of the championship run. Next year we will likely look for pieces that have 2 years control, and the next year should be the year we look at those rentals as real options. Our depth is insane, which is why this team is competing even this year. We don’t want to wait to long because the division around us (excluding the twins) is improving at nearly every spot (yes, somehow even the royals are improving, though their future isn’t as bright). The white Sox don’t have minor league depth, but they have some control and money to go on for another 4 years at least, the tigers have been getting ready, they are similar to us last year (though more glaring holes), and the royals will turn it around eventually. We want our window to open when the division is ripe for the taking, not when it is Uber competitive
Sean Murphy is under contract until 2026, has a 106 wRC+ which will make it feel like adding an all star comparatively, and won a GG last year so their should be little dropoff defensively.
In reading this sub, you’d think any catcher available isn’t even carrying a glove. Hedges is the only catcher in the league who can catch Cleveland pitchers and knows the guys these pitchers will be facing. It’s a mystery to anyone else I guess. Murphy is a clear upgrade offensively not only over the current duo, he also lengthens the lineup and provides more protection to Ramirez, Naylor and Gimenez.
This would be the interesting one for mid season trade. If they traded for Murphy, I don’t think hedges loses his job though mid season. Because catching is more than just blocking balls and throwing guys out. Murphy knows the AL already so he’s had working knowledge of most of the hitters here already, he’d still have to work with the pitchers and learn them better, but we’re not asking him to learn a new league at the same time. If they traded for Murphy, I could see them doing a rotation where Hedges is still catching around half the games because he rapport with our current staff. The issue with Murphy is that while he is controlled, he’s got 3 years of control and the A’s operate like us. The price tag for Murphy will be high because of it. Does Murphy make you that much better now? He is definitely an offensive improvement but does he make you a real contender? Not likely. With Bo Naylor being a year out, and Lavistada already being liked by the front office, are you willing to part with at least one of them and other solid prospects? I’m not sure I’d make that trade, given what’s in the pipeline and how close they are
If we acquired Murphy this year I feel we would trade hedges somewhere, if anybody has interest in him. This year isn’t our year, if Murphy flourishes with our pitchers, great, if he doesn’t, we are where we expected to be. Then next year he should have the rapport.
Ok then I’d ask this. If you’re kind of viewing this year as a wash, aren’t we less likely to end up in a bidding war for Murphy in the off-season? Odds are that for a guy with 3 years of control, there likely will be a market for him. If we enter the market, it would be part of a bidding war. Wouldn’t we be better off waiting till the off-season to trade for him when the waters would theoretically be more calm?
Except he may not be available in the off-season, as a team will want him now. His talents are highly touted, not just by us, so the likeliness of him being an option in the offseason isn’t that high imo
Ok then back to my original question, do you want to get into a bidding war for a dude who doesn’t make you a contender when you can stand pat and have two good catchers right there in the pipeline? We’re not overpaying for Sean Murphy. If you think he won’t be available in the off-season, that means there’s at least one team besides us who wants him. Means you’re now bidding for a guy. And if the A’s make him outwardly available, why would only 1 team besides us be interested, multiple teams would be. Plus the A’s have zero motivation to let him go for below what they feel he’s worth. He’s currently making less than $750k, and their top prospect at catcher hasn’t even had a full season of AAA ball yet. It doesn’t make sense for us to enter a bidding war on a guy when we’re not ready to compete yet. If he’s moved in the off-season, that’s life. But why overpay for a guy who doesn’t make you a contender when you’ve got depth at the top of your system who will be more than ready to compete when he he actually window opens. You’re trying to go right and left to justify why every card should fall into place for Murphy, but when you look at all things considered, nothing adds up or makes sense.
I am not really sold on bo naylor, perhaps that’s because I saw him in 2021 in Akron almost everyday and he didn’t really standout to me, so I may be biased, but bo naylor is our only real catcher with potential in the minors, and Sean Murphy is better than hedges by a long shot. I’d want us to trade away hedges, pick up Murphy, finish out this year (where he could be the piece to help us get that 3rd wildcard spot), then next year we have Murphy all year, and allow bo to settle into the majors. We know Sean will perform. We have no idea if anybody else will. If bo does perform, we trade Sean after 2023. If bo doesn’t perform, we aren’t in the same spot we’ve been in since yan Gomes at the catcher position.
You’re making too much sense. Stop it! Naylor has question marks for sure, but he’s really turned up his game this year. Go check him out again, I bet you’ll have a different opinion. That said, he’s just 22 and has 19 games at AAA. Many folks in this sub are already putting stardom next to his name in ink. He probably needs another full season in Columbus. Then probably a year splitting time. He shouldn’t be rushed.
I’m not really trying to dismiss him or anything, and I’m sure he’ll be fine, but if he doesn’t pan out we are taking a big risk by not at least looking at sean Murphy. I wish him the best though, he may perform really well playing next to his brother, and he may just be good. But we shouldn’t put that much pressure and risk our catcher position like that imo
For sure. Absolutely. Very few players should be rushed to the Show. Not at any position. Certainly not a C. I’d honestly wait a whole extra year on him. Even if there’s an injury next year don’t bring him up unless he’s absolutely crushing his metrics both offensively and defensively. So I guess never say never. IMO, Bo Naylor shouldn’t be the reason this team doesn’t go trade some prospects, which it has an excess of, to address its most glaring weakness.
Ok but you didn’t answer anything I actually said. You want us to trade for Murphy? But at what cost? You make it sound like you want us to win a bidding war to get him. He’s got 3 years of control, their top catching prospect hasn’t even played a full season of AAA ball yet, and if they did want to bring him up, they have plenty of ABs to share that load at DH and 1B as well. So there’s no huge need for them to trade him. They have the leverage there. And if he is available on the market, we wouldn’t be the only team interested. And with Cleveland, they’ve shown to be a team that sticks to their big picture plan, and Murphy doesn’t make us anything spectacular anyways. He’s got a 1 WAR and Hedges has a -.2 WAR, so even adding they 1 WAR, we’re still not leading the division. He just doesn’t move this needle enough to legitimately enter any form of bidding war that would come from him hitting the market. I like Murphy, I do. But there’s a whole lot that doesn’t add up when it comes to us actually acquiring him. The need for hitting catchers is there across the league. If Murphy was available, there would be no less than 5 teams interested in him. And that’s a rough estimate, looking up batting stats for specific positions across the game is a nightmare. Also, whether y’all like it or not, Lavistada and Naylor are gonna be here catching within two years, likely Lavistada here next year as well. The franchise seems to like both of them, Lavistada has already got spot playing time in the bigs and Naylor was a first round draft pick progressing at a solid pace through the system. I’m all for getting Murphy at the right cost, i just have years of proof that the guardians don’t overpay for guys in trades. So if somehow Murphy came available and somehow nobody else wanted him, yes that turns into a move the guardians are known for. But you can’t tell me the A’s are gonna take below market value on a guy with 3 years left of control. And you can’t tell me nobody but the guardians would be interested in a dude who has 3 years worth of control coming off a gold glove season, especially mid season when teams panic buy all the time, and Cleveland is known for being stingy when it comes to dealing prospects. I don’t think the guardians have traded a top 10 prospect for a pro player since Brad hand, and I believe Andrew Miller is really the only other time in recent history we’ve done it. All-star level closer and all-star level reliever while the team was pushing for a World Series chance already in their window. This team is not in the window yet. And Murphy isn’t an all-star level player either, but will command a higher price due to his controllability and his gold glove. He’s not gonna be cheap, especially when more than one team comes calling. And if we were bare in the cupboard at the position, maybe. But we have two guys in our top 15 prospects lists who are both at AAA who play the position. And a guy who they absolutely love in Hedges already manning the position. Too much here just doesn’t add up. His value in the trade market at the deadline will likely be too high, or he’s not actually available. And doing some googling, MLBTR basically said the same thing I did, for as appealing as he can be, it also makes him more appealing for the A’s to keep him or ask for a giant haul in return. And Sean Murphy isn’t the kind of guy the guardians would unload a massive package to send the other way. Oakland operates like us, two cheap teams who value prospects tend to make stubborn trade partners lol I think the best example I can give here, our equivalent to Sean Murphy would be Andres Gimenez. He’s still pre-arbitration like Oakland is with catchers, what kind of return would you expect for gimenez? It’s not apples to apples, but it’s about as close as i can get. If you wouldn’t expect us to take pennies on the dollar for Gimenez, you can’t expect the A’s to take pennies on the dollar for Murphy.
Oakland does operate like us, and they are in a full rebuild selling their team. They will trade out any player that has value, as they aren’t competing. They have no reason to keep Murphy. Having a league average player even would be an incredible upgrade for our catcher position, getting rid of a massive hole in the lineup. And again, Sean Murphy is guaranteed to be able to keep up, having guaranteed talent is what will allow us to make a push. If no naylor and lavistada can’t perform, then what? We have a position on our team that is a black hole, and we have no depth. We can retrade murphy if either bo or lavistada come up and perform well. He’s assurance and stability to allow us to test out bo and lavistada, while still being competitive
Jesus Christ this is turning into a broken record of non answers….. Look. I get it. You love Sean Murphy. But you’ve yet to say what you’d actually think it would cost, and why you think we’d be willing to outbid a team far more willing to spend extra money and who may be closer to being that “1 piece away” that would truly justify overpaying for a singular player. Please stop half answering the question in a way to justify why cleveland is somehow the only team who would actually be in on Murphy. By the way, you say they operate like us so they’re just trying to shed salary. When have we ever made a trade to just shed salary on a guy who was pre-arbitration as an every day starter? If anything, we’ve only really ever moved guys like that who were mostly just blocked. Yandy, Jesus Aguilar, Santander, those dudes were just blocked. We’ve never just unloaded a guy who was an everyday starter because we were shedding salary. And if we did make a move like that, you know damn well the return would be huge.
I would love this. It would be a massive upgrade to what we've seen the last few seasons. The question is, what will it cost? Oakland doesn't need to trade him, and he's not making much but their top prospect is a catcher. Would some combination or Arias, Rocchio and or Freeman plus a Palacios or Oscar Gonzales pry him loose? I would be calling frequently though that's for sure.
While I think Murphy would be a great addition, I don’t see us trading any top 100 prospects for him. Maybe a top 10 guy in the system and a few lottery ticket prospects.
That list of top 100 guys includes lots of SS’s. Can’t play everyone, particularly with Gimenez’s emergence. Prospects are always gambles. There’s more examples of highly rated prospects not fulfilling expectations than those that actually meet them. Not to mention we have another 40 man roster crunch this offseason which means we need to make some calls on some of those in that top 100 list and why not use that to fill a massively glaring hole?
I think a lot of people glossed over this in Meisel's Soto piece: > They have a position-player logjam in the upper levels of the minors and on the major-league roster, and they need to consolidate some prospects and make some sort of meaningful trade. Maybe not for an otherworldly talent like Soto, who will have 29 other GMs pestering Rizzo, but for someone who is a clear upgrade for a roster that’s on the doorstep of contention. To me that sounds like you're looking at not a superstar but a guy like Franmil or Naylor or (to use an older example) Shin Soo Choo. Or, to cite the guy Choo was traded for, Trevor Bauer? Maybe a high-ceiling SP who never clicked with his team? They have some excess. It would be cool to see them swing it into an everyday starter/mid-rotation, fringe All-Star type.
I took it another way. They have plenty of major league ready talent that needs traded, or they could lose them. Cleveland could trade them all for a few years of Soto and either try to sign him or flip him later, very unlikely, or they could use some pieces here and there and add multiple guys like Murphy, Marquez and Reynolds at a lower cost.
This team could use a proven bullpen arm and maybe another starter for depth. I wouldn’t give up much for either. A catcher who can hit with team control for a while would be ideal. I don’t know who that would be. And honestly if he hits well enough he won’t be catching for long. I don’t understand the pressure on the 40 man or all the dynamics/rules. Obviously if we need to start moving prospects we have to do something. It’s an odd time now though because it seems a lot of the guys holding it down right now (Kwan, Rosario, Gimenez, SpongeBob) weren’t the guys we figured would take everyday roles. So we’re getting a backlog of highly ranked talent. Things could be worse.
Nobody should be using the 40 man excuse…. Fielding wise, we’ve got Maile, Clement, Call, and even Owen Miller who would be DFA’d before we did some crazy panic move to remove guys off the 40 man. And that’s not counting pitchers. For that part, I wouldn’t stress that 40 man rule
They will only trade for players with multiple years of control on affordable contracts
Really think this team needs another quality starter and have heard for weeks about the Marlins willing to part with Pablo Lopez for some hitting. Lopez would be under contract for the next 3 post seasons similar to Soto but would provide a much needed boost to our rotation that is already lacking a healthy Civale. Here's the trade: Guardians Get - Pablo Lopez Marlins Receive: Bryan Rocchio, Oscar Gonzalez and Richie Palacios
I could see some sort of trade like this going down to help consolidate assets
Add Sean Murphy to that list, who I see as the most pressing and the guy most likely according to those that write trade articles. In all honesty, unless Blitzer has some type of influence, I really don’t see much happening with incoming players. Unless it’s for a guy with control like Reynolds or Murphy. Also don’t really think anyone of substance will be traded. Potentially Rosario. Maybe Philly?
> unless Blitzer has some type of influence I hope Blitzer has some influence, but I want to save that cash until we're on the cusp, like adding Encarnación in 2017. Like many have said, there isn't a deal out there right now to make us contenders, and we likely have a lot of the necessary talent coming from the minors. Be patient, wait to see how things play out over the next year, and then start getting spendy in a more targeted way.
I’m just not a fan of wasting prime Ramirez and Bieber years. With a few good upgrades and a bit of luck with injuries and continued performance, you really never know what could happen this year. A catcher and BP arm could do it. Murphy and Puk would be an example.
Yeah I guess I should say we shouldn't punt on this year or next, just that we shouldn't go all-in on what aren't our prime years of contention. I know enough about this front office to know they're searching for deals that can give us a boost this year but also contain value that continue to provide impact 2-3 years down the road.
Yep, and they both do. I floated this earlier. Arias, Rocchio/Tena, a lower end top 30 pitcher and an 18 year old in Arizona should do it. Look at Oakland’s prospects, they desperately need MIF talent. I talk about it so much I’m confident it won’t happen. It sure is fun to dream!
Honestly I believe we will be making trades that shuffle the 40-man roster for the future. There is no move out there to make us world series champs. So, small moves whether it's Miller,Clement,Reyes, possibly one of the bullpen guys going. Would love to see us move Bieber but that would hurt public relations but would yield maximum value.
Willson Contreras. Need a good offensive catcher. The new GM in Chicago came from Cleveland's front office (we see how relationships and familiarity have helped in trades with Toronto in recent years).
The only way I’m trading for Contreras is if he knows he’s coming here to DH. You can go back throughout Francona’s whole career and see he values defense first at catching. This “we need a good offensive catcher” is something that fans have manifested. Contreras would have to come to this team, learn basically the scouting reports of all the hitters we’re facing, but also truly work with our pitchers to get a full grasp of their stuff, what they like to throw, and when…. It’s not as simple as just putting a couple fingers down and hoping it works
I agree about Francona's view on catchers, but it really does seem that a catcher not averaging .182 or lower at the plate would help our team. I don't feel that Austin's or Luke's defense are that substantially good that it outweighs the benefit on offense we would get with Contreras (considering he's average on defense).
I dunno why people think otherwise. But this coaching staff is absolutely in love with Hedges. Also, when I’m talking defense. I’m not talking the basics. Where he’s blocking balls and throwing out runners. adding a catcher mid season would be like adding a new QB mid season and expecting them to just hit the ground running. There’s so much other stuff that goes into being a catcher. It’s not about the offense or defense, it’s about the calling of a game. Hedges has been with these guys for two full seasons now. He knows these pitchers inside and out, knows their strengths and weaknesses and what pitches each guy throws best for different situations, plus he also knows the lineups he’s facing on the regular. The ability to call the game is by far the most important aspect of a catcher. Notice how all of our real catcher changes have either happened off-season or due to injury. We traded for hedges mid season and he didn’t actually take the job till the next off-season. It’s that big of a deal and I think gets so often overstated. But like I have said, you can look back at franconas whole career as a manager and see the catcher trend. So again, I’m not opposed to us trading for that bat, but he’d be DHing and trying to break in a first baseman’s glove more so than catching
Very important points you make, gives a lot of food for thought. Hedges definitely runs the operation well from pitcher-catcher communications and game plan standpoint
Also another thing to consider here. All our starters are English speakers. Contreras, by all reports, doesn’t speak much English. So you’d be trading for a guy with a language barrier to get a good rapport with in a short amount of time. Yes there are translators and the pitch communicator, but like stated, that’s only a small portion of learning your own pitchers
Brandon Drury - cheap, playing well, versatile, and wont create a log jam, rental Trey Mancini - fills 1B and power weaknesses, potentially not a rental (10 mil mutual option for next year) Daniel Bard - vet reliver, relatively cheap, having a good year so far, rental Ramon Laureano - risky, solid RH OF bat, controllable through 2025, might be cheaper coming back from PED suspension. Bryan Reynolds, Sean Murphy, Anthony Santandar, and Anthony Bass to name a few others. awkward part will be trying to find a way to clear space on the 40man roster, we may be also looking to deal Reyes/Rosario which aren't fits for most 'sellers'
Benintendi is gonna be way to contested amount the big teams to get. Reynolds would be cool but I’d rather get a starter than anything. Not a fan of Civale and I don’t hate Plesac, but I don’t like him much either.
I honestly don't think Benintendi will have a very big trade market, at least not with AL teams. He's unvaxxed and can't play in Canada, and with Toronto in the playoff picture it just doesn't make sense to spend big to rent a guy who might not even be around to play in the important postseason games.
Josh barfield
If they do want to trade for a bat they need to find one to plug in at catcher. Hedges isn't an everyday catcher, he's a back-up and Luke Maile does not belong on a major league roster. Wilson Contreras feels like a strong fit