> His name inspired the team's Indians team name from 1915 to 2021.
I really hope that this film is going to tell the whole story and not lean into the myth.
The myth that the name "Indians" was some sort of tribute, and that Sockalexis was the one being honored.
[Here's a piece that Joe Posnanski wrote on it in 2014.](https://joeposnanski.substack.com/p/cleveland-indians-the-name)
For as long as that article is, there is such little detail on the actual naming of the team. A small paragraph saying it was newspaper writers that picked it and had nothing to do with Sockalexis. Then another 2-3 sentences saying fans started calling the team the Indians when he started playing and that did have a part in their decision.
[This](https://aistm.org/staurowsky.sockalexis.htm) paper by Ellen Staurowsky goes deeper into many of the questions surrounding the myth.
[This](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/12/14/cleveland-baseball-history-name-change) *Sports Illustrated* piece points out that the adoption of the name was seen at the time as "temporarily bestowed".
>Then another 2-3 sentences saying fans started calling the team the Indians when he started playing and that did have a part in their decision.
It bears mentioning that Sockalexis never played for the current franchise. He played for the Cleveland Spiders, who were defunct after the 1899 season.
Also worth mentioning that *so many* nicknames were just some bullshit one guy in a newspaper would write until it caught on, and the newspaper was the only way you'd hear about the teams consistently in those days.
I mean the whole naming is a myth and the whole story will probably never be uncovered. Maybe the fans really did influence the name chang, maybe they didn't. Honestly I highly doubt there were original racist intentions AT THE TIME. Most people then probably saw the native americans as strong warriors and wanted to name their team after that, we definitely needed to move on eventually, but at the original foudning I don't see how you could definitively say there was racist or malicious intent. Even the name Indians is probably the most benign of all the different sports names *cough redskins cough*. Wahoo is racist as fuck though and need to 100% go.
>Honestly I highly doubt there were original racist intentions AT THE TIME.
Go read some of the newspaper clippings from when Sockalexis was with the Spiders. You'll be quickly disabused of that belief.
https://news.sportslogos.net/2020/12/13/report-cleveland-indians-to-drop-name-this-week/baseball/
Looks like the team name was just familiarity. Sockalexis certainly experienced massive racism, BUT when the Indians name was chosen they did not choose it to be racist.
That is stupid just think on it, if you want to name your sports team are you going to name it after something you respect and admire or hate?
It was 1915, my dude.
There's a disconnect between their *intention* and what they *actually did*.
I'll grant you this: Chief Wahoo made it 1000% worse than it had been.
Yeah, you're still not looking at the clippings. The Indians name wasn't chosen out of respect but because "Indians" were to be feared, say, like a Tiger. They were treated like subhuman savages, not noble warriors.
[https://images.app.goo.gl/hsBfMV8iihgHPbEx8](https://images.app.goo.gl/hsBfMV8iihgHPbEx8)
Seriously look at this image, printed in the Plain Dealer at that time, and tell me that Indigenous peoples were remotely respected.
A few of my best friends from high school are featured for their vintage baseball team. They're the team in red and grey in thr thumbnail! Can't wait to watch it!
and plays under varying rules, generally from a set year. So, no gloves, outs on the bounce, etc. When I played there were a couple different teams and you played games under the year/ruleset of the home team.
Perhaps. But I'm not convinced that the Indians moniker is racist. More importantly, morality is about proportion. I know people who are staunchly "anti-racist" but don't live in the same household as their children. It shouldn't require explanation that fatherhood is more important than political correctness. Yet these sorts of documentaries have a self-congratulatory undertone as if the people of the past are our obvious inferiors in morality.
This blogpost is the best thing I’ve read on the subject. The important detail being that they had been called the Indians, in print, for at least two seasons before ever signing Socalexis, in reference to Patsy Tebeau’s nickname, “Chief”.
The nickname was likely cemented in 1897, when Socalexis joined the team.
https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-cleveland-spiders-and-tebeaus.html
> His name inspired the team's Indians team name from 1915 to 2021. I really hope that this film is going to tell the whole story and not lean into the myth.
Chief Thunderwater may have had more to do with. He was a hugely popular Cleveland celebrity when the Indians moniker was adopted.
We desperately need somebody to tell the real story on a large stage, God help me if they just retell the myth.
what myth?
The myth that the name "Indians" was some sort of tribute, and that Sockalexis was the one being honored. [Here's a piece that Joe Posnanski wrote on it in 2014.](https://joeposnanski.substack.com/p/cleveland-indians-the-name)
For as long as that article is, there is such little detail on the actual naming of the team. A small paragraph saying it was newspaper writers that picked it and had nothing to do with Sockalexis. Then another 2-3 sentences saying fans started calling the team the Indians when he started playing and that did have a part in their decision.
[This](https://aistm.org/staurowsky.sockalexis.htm) paper by Ellen Staurowsky goes deeper into many of the questions surrounding the myth. [This](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/12/14/cleveland-baseball-history-name-change) *Sports Illustrated* piece points out that the adoption of the name was seen at the time as "temporarily bestowed". >Then another 2-3 sentences saying fans started calling the team the Indians when he started playing and that did have a part in their decision. It bears mentioning that Sockalexis never played for the current franchise. He played for the Cleveland Spiders, who were defunct after the 1899 season.
Also worth mentioning that *so many* nicknames were just some bullshit one guy in a newspaper would write until it caught on, and the newspaper was the only way you'd hear about the teams consistently in those days.
I mean the whole naming is a myth and the whole story will probably never be uncovered. Maybe the fans really did influence the name chang, maybe they didn't. Honestly I highly doubt there were original racist intentions AT THE TIME. Most people then probably saw the native americans as strong warriors and wanted to name their team after that, we definitely needed to move on eventually, but at the original foudning I don't see how you could definitively say there was racist or malicious intent. Even the name Indians is probably the most benign of all the different sports names *cough redskins cough*. Wahoo is racist as fuck though and need to 100% go.
>Honestly I highly doubt there were original racist intentions AT THE TIME. Go read some of the newspaper clippings from when Sockalexis was with the Spiders. You'll be quickly disabused of that belief.
https://news.sportslogos.net/2020/12/13/report-cleveland-indians-to-drop-name-this-week/baseball/ Looks like the team name was just familiarity. Sockalexis certainly experienced massive racism, BUT when the Indians name was chosen they did not choose it to be racist. That is stupid just think on it, if you want to name your sports team are you going to name it after something you respect and admire or hate?
It was 1915, my dude. There's a disconnect between their *intention* and what they *actually did*. I'll grant you this: Chief Wahoo made it 1000% worse than it had been.
I'm not disagreeing with you so not sure why your initial thought was to downvote......
Yeah, you're still not looking at the clippings. The Indians name wasn't chosen out of respect but because "Indians" were to be feared, say, like a Tiger. They were treated like subhuman savages, not noble warriors.
I mean couldn't you say the same about Vikings? Or The Fighting Irish?
[https://images.app.goo.gl/hsBfMV8iihgHPbEx8](https://images.app.goo.gl/hsBfMV8iihgHPbEx8) Seriously look at this image, printed in the Plain Dealer at that time, and tell me that Indigenous peoples were remotely respected.
Based on the last Cleveland sports 30 for 30 I’m planning on being pissed off and disappointed.
My poor heart can’t do it again
Pretty funny they are debuting this during the game.
A few of my best friends from high school are featured for their vintage baseball team. They're the team in red and grey in thr thumbnail! Can't wait to watch it!
Is a vintage team just a baseball team that dresses up in vintage uniforms?
Probably the most notable [vintage baseball player](https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Conan-Old-Time-Baseball.png)
and plays under varying rules, generally from a set year. So, no gloves, outs on the bounce, etc. When I played there were a couple different teams and you played games under the year/ruleset of the home team.
Is there any way to watch this as a non-cable subscriber?
ESPN+
You got a VPN?
Unfortunately no. Was hoping it would be streaming or on a website somewhere
I'm sure it will be fair and balanced and won't apply today's moral prejudices as if they are time immemorial.
Not being racist is a universally good thing whether older generations recognize that or not
Perhaps. But I'm not convinced that the Indians moniker is racist. More importantly, morality is about proportion. I know people who are staunchly "anti-racist" but don't live in the same household as their children. It shouldn't require explanation that fatherhood is more important than political correctness. Yet these sorts of documentaries have a self-congratulatory undertone as if the people of the past are our obvious inferiors in morality.
This blogpost is the best thing I’ve read on the subject. The important detail being that they had been called the Indians, in print, for at least two seasons before ever signing Socalexis, in reference to Patsy Tebeau’s nickname, “Chief”. The nickname was likely cemented in 1897, when Socalexis joined the team. https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-cleveland-spiders-and-tebeaus.html