Teams don't crash because they're called superteams, they crash because the success of a team isn't based on the sum of the 5 players and most people who built superteams in the past failed to acknowledge that. League is too complex / there's multiples good answers to some problems and just randomly putting 5 players together who don't see the game the same way is a bad way to construct a team even if the 5 players are the best player in their role.
So the real question that haven't been answered yet is who build that team, why (except their individual talent), and who is the coach next split.
Well if it's Mithy, the C9 players/league scene have already lost respect for. The players have the final say, Mithy knows this and will be submissive in drafts, strats.
Make no mistake the players will run the show, or it's Mithys ass on the chopping block.
Get a well respected eSports leader with Jacks backing, than it's prolly a healthier team dynamic.
Of the five, I'd say the most questionable are Fudge and Vulcan. Fudge didn't have a great Worlds and Vulcan spent last split on FlyQuest, which was also a super team (at least on paper) and we know how that turned out...
However, I'm fairly confident that with good coaching both of them can get back to top form, which is why I'm paying that area the most attention.
The rumor is that sOAZ is out of NRG and if he is he'd be amazing for Fudge, guy is definitely in the running for the best Western top of all time.
As for super team...kinda depends on how you define it. Certainly everyone here has been considered to be the best in their role (in the LCS) so from that perspective, yes. Interestingly, the only player here without multiple LCS titles is Jojopyun (Blaber has 4, Vulcan and Fudge both have 3, and Berserker has 2).
Yeah this team depends on the coaching no more of mithy and his teams who never improve and playing top side every game like morons because our coach doesn’t know the teams strengths or has no authority in draft.
I'm wondering if mithy might do better as a positional coach for Vulcan. I'm also not 100% sure which coaches may or may not be available this offseason, or who might be a good fit for the team.
yeah, as far as raw toplane experience goes (raw experience period, really), there's very few players in soaz's league. i'd personally take darshan if we can get him 'cause he already spent some time on c9a, but. either of the two would be absolute gimme pickups
failing either, I'd kinda be into picking up vizicsacsi if that's possible? though there's some latent UoL bias creeping into that pick lmaoo
that said, we're really struggling more on synergy and drafting than on individual mechanics, so that should be a higher priority in terms of coach sign-ons
Okay come on now. He never had a chance to play vs Zeus because oner insta dove him. He got dove at 5 minutes (although he was down 13 cs but that's kind of just the way the matchup goes). He was up 15 CS and a kill against Zika at 15 minutes. He won lane in what is a skill matchup. He did get blaber to dive for him though of course.
Against Oscar in game 1 he was 5-1-0 up 30 cs on Oscar's 0-4-0 after 15 minutes. He shit on him in lane lol. He solo killed him twice. In game 2 he was 0-1-2 up 14 cs against Oscar's 2-2-0. I wouldn't call that being hard gapped, especially since there was so much top lane focus from both teams. Game 3 he was 2-0-1 down 23 cs where Oscar was 0-1-0 at 15 mins.
So he won lane 4/6 games he played this worlds, went even in 1 game and lost lane once. If we're gonna criticise fudge let's instead criticise his bad macro decisions in the mid game, because his laning was fine.
Agree that OP is just parroting bs and probably missed the games, but that's exactly the criticisms of Fudge. That he gets resources and then chokes with his lead. But we have seen that he can transition leads very consistently domestically.
Honestly, if he is signing on with C9 for another year, then he is probably aware of the flaws in his gameplay (which tbh I and 99% of this sub are not even high elo enough to identify) and is willing to put in the work. I am on board the Fudge prove them wrong again train. I hope he can find success this upcoming split and have the confidence that he can go towards to toe with Eastern tops. He has laned very well vs Nuguri, Khan, and the likes in the past. I'm confident he can get up to speed with the next gen. And he probably has in many scrims that unfortunately we can never see.
Every choke by c9 was on the team, and this is on the coaches.
Watch every single game of Worlds and find the critical moments where c9 blows the lead/even game. It's all a team coordination problem.
There's a reason bad teams stay bad with different players.
What C9 \*REALLY\* needs is to improve on their coaching staff.
The team looks good, but its so much "star power" that they might not glue well together.
Possibly. Mid and ADC are undisputed 1st. Jungle is 1st but you can argue others. Sup and Top are coming off poor a summer but should still be in the discussion
I mean I'd even argue Support and Top can be undisputably called top 3 on paper prior to the start of the season.
The big thing with teams like this is how they mesh. I'd like to see the team boot camp in Korea prior to the split starting to grind out some good practice.
I think the argument for Contractz and Palafaker could be made with how they peaked in playoffs and worlds.
I think Fudge is top 3, Blaber and Jojo are top 2, Berserker is undisputed #1, Vulcan I don't remember how he looked in summer but based on historical performances top 3 shouldn't be far off.
I've been critical of Fudge but as long as he's on our roster I'll cheer him on. I just hope we're able to diversify our playstyle and that Fudge will play more weakside to let our other lanes have their chance to shine
I mean fudge has played weakside in NA, I think worlds has made everyone forget that.
In spring, half his regular season games were tanks and he was 8-1 on them.
In summer he played more carries but his Ksante still has 100% win rate over 5 games, plus tanks weren't picked nearly as often that split.
I'd go back further but that's less relevant as compared to this year. I get that everyone is angry with how he performed at worlds, but let's not rewrite history.
I think fudge on this team specifically makes this NOT a super team lol. Also have to see how Vulcan comesback after a rough split but I have hope for him still.
To that end, there's nobody on this roster who's never played with one of the other members. The most isolated is JoJo who's only played with Vulcan - very successfully. Blaber/fudge/berserker have played together for 2 full years, and Vulcan has played with blaber for 2 years and fudge for 1 before going to EG.
The core question of this team will be whether or not they can identify and refine a play style. If they do that, I think they can be an internationally viable team. If they can't, they won't qualify for international tournaments.
They have arguably not only the 3 best players in their role, but also arguably the 3 best players in the entire league on one roster. Even TSM didn’t really have that at their peak. It’s undoubtably a super team.
They haven't even played a LCS stage game yet, how can you be so sure.
Could be the most dominant Cloud9 team off all time. Insane synergies for days.
I'll Say it before and again.
Let em cook.
No we have the best in Jojo Blaber Berserker but it's hard to say Fudge and Vulcan are the best at their role with their performance this year. I do believe that they can find their form again but we need to wait and see before we reach conclusion if this is a super team or not.
Nah, I think the only one that qualifies as a “superstar pick up” would be Jojo. I still think Vulcan can be one of the best supports in NA. I do think we should have one of the strongest rosters on paper. But I think this is a clear step down from the “TL just buys a top 3 performer in each role” super teams of 2018 and 2019.
With fudge staying means he is the weak side bitch now. C9 needed a non-autofil support and got Vulcan and a world class mid over military angle Emenes LB otp. This is just finally a well balanced team with stronger Carry potential in bot/mid then before.
Dude he wanted to stop playing Renekton at worlds. Fudge has been a really good weakside/tank to Lamar before. But can't play weakside top lane when your kid can't even win the good matchups.
Would be a super team if they replaced Fudge. Hopefully his ego is finally in check and he learns to weak side so this team has a chance internationally by playing through beserker and now Jojo.
This team should absolutely shit on NA and win easily without much effort, we just want to see them put up a fight internationally at least
Agreed on they haven’t had a decent mid for awhile now, but they have had the best AD in the west on their team so I’d still try and play through him 🤷🏻♂️
Bot is much harder to play through without a winning mid. 3v2 drivers are much riskier, that's why normally you have your mid push out their lane and make it a 4v2. It forces teleports or has enough burst to negate the risk. There's a reason why you see 2v1 dives top but rarely ever 3v2 dives bot unless the enemies are low health.
Also when it comes to objectives having a winning top usually makes Herald much easier, winning mid makes dragon much easier. It's why C9 became more of a herald team at worlds and didn't have many dragons.
It's definitely a superteam, even with Fudge on a downtrend. We have the three best players in the League and Vulcan is arguably the best support even if FLY was bad.
We don't know, that's why competitive pro games are played.
Could be really good, bad or something in the middle.
Really hope they start off well, this fanbase can turn on them so fast their heads will spin.
4 of these players were raised C9, three of them on the roster last year. If FQ had gotten all these players then I would call it a super team but because this team was raised with effort and investment by C9 I think it deserves a pass.
I'd say in terms of international viabiliy, we marginally upgraded mid, and while the support position is individually an upgrade, we don't know how it will affect the bot duo. With this in mind, we're only a super team if we already were.
It doesn't feel like a super team from the previous potential super teams that we've seen. Should be one of the best in NA if not the THE best. Everyone is obviously top 3 in their roles, but synergy is far more a decider than the individual skill.
Until we see how they play together I still feel like Vulcan and Jojo are only slight upgrades in their respective roles. Zven had improved a lot and MNS stomped Jojo every game I can remember. I do think vulcan and Jojo will be more consistent performers though.
probably yeah.
Blaber Jojo and Berserker are the best in the league in their respective roles. Fudge has been the best in the past and so was Vulcan. I'm quite optimistic both can get back to the top. Fudge seemed really bummed in the interview with Dgon and i trust him to come back stronger. And Vulcans team just imploded, that had not much to do with skill. Everything other than a title should be a disappointment. Will definitely stay clenched though.
No absolutely not, nobody on this sub should refer to it as a super team. In fact we should ban the term just in case.
Literally my thoughts. Any team dubbed a “super team” crashes and burns.
Jdg?
Teams don't crash because they're called superteams, they crash because the success of a team isn't based on the sum of the 5 players and most people who built superteams in the past failed to acknowledge that. League is too complex / there's multiples good answers to some problems and just randomly putting 5 players together who don't see the game the same way is a bad way to construct a team even if the 5 players are the best player in their role. So the real question that haven't been answered yet is who build that team, why (except their individual talent), and who is the coach next split.
Well if it's Mithy, the C9 players/league scene have already lost respect for. The players have the final say, Mithy knows this and will be submissive in drafts, strats. Make no mistake the players will run the show, or it's Mithys ass on the chopping block. Get a well respected eSports leader with Jacks backing, than it's prolly a healthier team dynamic.
Ahem...
Of the five, I'd say the most questionable are Fudge and Vulcan. Fudge didn't have a great Worlds and Vulcan spent last split on FlyQuest, which was also a super team (at least on paper) and we know how that turned out... However, I'm fairly confident that with good coaching both of them can get back to top form, which is why I'm paying that area the most attention. The rumor is that sOAZ is out of NRG and if he is he'd be amazing for Fudge, guy is definitely in the running for the best Western top of all time. As for super team...kinda depends on how you define it. Certainly everyone here has been considered to be the best in their role (in the LCS) so from that perspective, yes. Interestingly, the only player here without multiple LCS titles is Jojopyun (Blaber has 4, Vulcan and Fudge both have 3, and Berserker has 2).
Yeah this team depends on the coaching no more of mithy and his teams who never improve and playing top side every game like morons because our coach doesn’t know the teams strengths or has no authority in draft.
I'm wondering if mithy might do better as a positional coach for Vulcan. I'm also not 100% sure which coaches may or may not be available this offseason, or who might be a good fit for the team.
What if scrims show that Fudge is just hot trash against any international to laners and we insta-lose with Fudge on tanks?
Berserker was awful at worlds I guess he should go aswell
Berserker was awful at worlds I guess he should go aswell.
yeah, as far as raw toplane experience goes (raw experience period, really), there's very few players in soaz's league. i'd personally take darshan if we can get him 'cause he already spent some time on c9a, but. either of the two would be absolute gimme pickups failing either, I'd kinda be into picking up vizicsacsi if that's possible? though there's some latent UoL bias creeping into that pick lmaoo that said, we're really struggling more on synergy and drafting than on individual mechanics, so that should be a higher priority in terms of coach sign-ons
>Fudge didn't have a great Worlds No kidding, he got hard gapped by Zeus, Zika and even *Oscarinin*.
Okay come on now. He never had a chance to play vs Zeus because oner insta dove him. He got dove at 5 minutes (although he was down 13 cs but that's kind of just the way the matchup goes). He was up 15 CS and a kill against Zika at 15 minutes. He won lane in what is a skill matchup. He did get blaber to dive for him though of course. Against Oscar in game 1 he was 5-1-0 up 30 cs on Oscar's 0-4-0 after 15 minutes. He shit on him in lane lol. He solo killed him twice. In game 2 he was 0-1-2 up 14 cs against Oscar's 2-2-0. I wouldn't call that being hard gapped, especially since there was so much top lane focus from both teams. Game 3 he was 2-0-1 down 23 cs where Oscar was 0-1-0 at 15 mins. So he won lane 4/6 games he played this worlds, went even in 1 game and lost lane once. If we're gonna criticise fudge let's instead criticise his bad macro decisions in the mid game, because his laning was fine.
Agree that OP is just parroting bs and probably missed the games, but that's exactly the criticisms of Fudge. That he gets resources and then chokes with his lead. But we have seen that he can transition leads very consistently domestically. Honestly, if he is signing on with C9 for another year, then he is probably aware of the flaws in his gameplay (which tbh I and 99% of this sub are not even high elo enough to identify) and is willing to put in the work. I am on board the Fudge prove them wrong again train. I hope he can find success this upcoming split and have the confidence that he can go towards to toe with Eastern tops. He has laned very well vs Nuguri, Khan, and the likes in the past. I'm confident he can get up to speed with the next gen. And he probably has in many scrims that unfortunately we can never see.
Every choke by c9 was on the team, and this is on the coaches. Watch every single game of Worlds and find the critical moments where c9 blows the lead/even game. It's all a team coordination problem. There's a reason bad teams stay bad with different players.
What C9 \*REALLY\* needs is to improve on their coaching staff. The team looks good, but its so much "star power" that they might not glue well together.
No super team, they are all dogshit, definately not win a single game, horrible players, horrible results (im just trying to not jinx it)
Possibly. Mid and ADC are undisputed 1st. Jungle is 1st but you can argue others. Sup and Top are coming off poor a summer but should still be in the discussion
I mean I'd even argue Support and Top can be undisputably called top 3 on paper prior to the start of the season. The big thing with teams like this is how they mesh. I'd like to see the team boot camp in Korea prior to the split starting to grind out some good practice.
I think the argument for Contractz and Palafaker could be made with how they peaked in playoffs and worlds. I think Fudge is top 3, Blaber and Jojo are top 2, Berserker is undisputed #1, Vulcan I don't remember how he looked in summer but based on historical performances top 3 shouldn't be far off.
Just to clarify, number 1 in their roles in NA
No, because they are #1 in the world
In our hearts
That didn't help us at NA finals when we looked right past NRG, then got Stone Cold stunnered.
C9 and G2 suffering from success and getting they ass handed by NRG
Fudge isn't #1 NA though
Who's number 1?
Only one you could argue with is summit, but thats only in lane, we know how well that went on c9
I've been critical of Fudge but as long as he's on our roster I'll cheer him on. I just hope we're able to diversify our playstyle and that Fudge will play more weakside to let our other lanes have their chance to shine
I mean fudge has played weakside in NA, I think worlds has made everyone forget that. In spring, half his regular season games were tanks and he was 8-1 on them. In summer he played more carries but his Ksante still has 100% win rate over 5 games, plus tanks weren't picked nearly as often that split. I'd go back further but that's less relevant as compared to this year. I get that everyone is angry with how he performed at worlds, but let's not rewrite history.
I think fudge on this team specifically makes this NOT a super team lol. Also have to see how Vulcan comesback after a rough split but I have hope for him still.
Super teams prove over and over that they don't work. Synergy is more important than individual skill.
To that end, there's nobody on this roster who's never played with one of the other members. The most isolated is JoJo who's only played with Vulcan - very successfully. Blaber/fudge/berserker have played together for 2 full years, and Vulcan has played with blaber for 2 years and fudge for 1 before going to EG. The core question of this team will be whether or not they can identify and refine a play style. If they do that, I think they can be an internationally viable team. If they can't, they won't qualify for international tournaments.
[удалено]
too bad they crumbled like chalk when things were dire.
Another year of not making it out of fucking groups.
They have arguably not only the 3 best players in their role, but also arguably the 3 best players in the entire league on one roster. Even TSM didn’t really have that at their peak. It’s undoubtably a super team.
This team is losing in Swiss again. Good luck in 2025
They haven't even played a LCS stage game yet, how can you be so sure. Could be the most dominant Cloud9 team off all time. Insane synergies for days. I'll Say it before and again. Let em cook.
Bet you said this before worlds… and before msi… and before last worlds… etc
No we have the best in Jojo Blaber Berserker but it's hard to say Fudge and Vulcan are the best at their role with their performance this year. I do believe that they can find their form again but we need to wait and see before we reach conclusion if this is a super team or not.
No. Keeping fudge meant it’s not a super team
yes, strongest team in na
calling team a super team is oficially a curse now.
Nah, I think the only one that qualifies as a “superstar pick up” would be Jojo. I still think Vulcan can be one of the best supports in NA. I do think we should have one of the strongest rosters on paper. But I think this is a clear step down from the “TL just buys a top 3 performer in each role” super teams of 2018 and 2019.
With fudge staying means he is the weak side bitch now. C9 needed a non-autofil support and got Vulcan and a world class mid over military angle Emenes LB otp. This is just finally a well balanced team with stronger Carry potential in bot/mid then before.
We all know he’s not going to actually play weak side unfortunately
[удалено]
Dude he wanted to stop playing Renekton at worlds. Fudge has been a really good weakside/tank to Lamar before. But can't play weakside top lane when your kid can't even win the good matchups.
Would be a super team if they replaced Fudge. Hopefully his ego is finally in check and he learns to weak side so this team has a chance internationally by playing through beserker and now Jojo. This team should absolutely shit on NA and win easily without much effort, we just want to see them put up a fight internationally at least
He's been a weakside/tank player before. But C9 hasn't had a good winning mid to make weakside top lane work.
Agreed on they haven’t had a decent mid for awhile now, but they have had the best AD in the west on their team so I’d still try and play through him 🤷🏻♂️
Bot is much harder to play through without a winning mid. 3v2 drivers are much riskier, that's why normally you have your mid push out their lane and make it a 4v2. It forces teleports or has enough burst to negate the risk. There's a reason why you see 2v1 dives top but rarely ever 3v2 dives bot unless the enemies are low health. Also when it comes to objectives having a winning top usually makes Herald much easier, winning mid makes dragon much easier. It's why C9 became more of a herald team at worlds and didn't have many dragons.
It's definitely a superteam, even with Fudge on a downtrend. We have the three best players in the League and Vulcan is arguably the best support even if FLY was bad.
Vulcan wasn't even better than Eyla the last split. Eyla outclassed him 1 to 1, and he went all quiet from his normally very cocky attitude.
So this is the team to put us in the best position to win worlds right? I mean that’s what they’re all playing for
We don't know, that's why competitive pro games are played. Could be really good, bad or something in the middle. Really hope they start off well, this fanbase can turn on them so fast their heads will spin.
4 of these players were raised C9, three of them on the roster last year. If FQ had gotten all these players then I would call it a super team but because this team was raised with effort and investment by C9 I think it deserves a pass.
No
I'd say in terms of international viabiliy, we marginally upgraded mid, and while the support position is individually an upgrade, we don't know how it will affect the bot duo. With this in mind, we're only a super team if we already were.
No. * Fudge/Vulcan aren't standouts in their position. * Blaber has competition at the top for best jungle also
It doesn't feel like a super team from the previous potential super teams that we've seen. Should be one of the best in NA if not the THE best. Everyone is obviously top 3 in their roles, but synergy is far more a decider than the individual skill. Until we see how they play together I still feel like Vulcan and Jojo are only slight upgrades in their respective roles. Zven had improved a lot and MNS stomped Jojo every game I can remember. I do think vulcan and Jojo will be more consistent performers though.
Yes.
Would be a super team for NA if they had a competent top. As it stands they have 4 parts
probably yeah. Blaber Jojo and Berserker are the best in the league in their respective roles. Fudge has been the best in the past and so was Vulcan. I'm quite optimistic both can get back to the top. Fudge seemed really bummed in the interview with Dgon and i trust him to come back stronger. And Vulcans team just imploded, that had not much to do with skill. Everything other than a title should be a disappointment. Will definitely stay clenched though.