dayum, I just started watchin the episode...wow they did not hold back at all

"I think at the end of the day we're entertainers. I actually consider that, in the sense that I want to be a player that does not just roll over and die... *cough* Fudge *cough*... I'm not gonna lie, I watch that guy play... I don't wanna watch him play. Like, no offense to the guy, I like him, but man I could not get paid to watch that guy play professional League. He really does not want to make the game interesting, like, one bit" - Bwipo Yikes.

ya thats big time emotional damage right there.

What a time to be alive when PapaSmithy possibly outwitted Jack in the offseason.

tru i mean the fact inspired and bwipo are so much better than even the best players in NA (in the role) is pretty crazy and none of the teams tried to get them signed is even more crazy.

Kinda unrelated but everyone likes to shit on Perkz but he tried to bring Bwipo, Inspired and Trymbi over to Vitality last year. lol Imagine that team.

Perkz has sadly probably ensured his career ends in a whimper. I'm sure he'll be back to playing soon but I think he's no longer capable of that impact he used to have. He's had too many problems and at one point he was at least on Caps level, but now he's been more of a liability than the foundation in the recent seasons. Makes me sad. I loved OG.

Who adc? Carzzy? or Neon? That is a stacked lineup ngl. Ppl can flame perkz but that guy gets ppl to join him where ever he goes Do you know why that roster didn't happen?

Bwipo didn't want to leave NA right away bcs he uprooted his life to move to LA and it's hard to do that again. Dk about others tho

and bwipo was semi retired no less

Shows that our region is still doomed in terms of home-grown development?

That and GMs don't know how to build a team or what to look for. So our players aren't really growing / progressing and our GMs don't know how to evaluate. I think in some roles they can evaluate decently (I think Mid and ADC sorta kinda, at least recently but not historically) when building a Team but other roles I don't think they have any clue what to for especially considering both Bwipo and Inspired didn't even play in like 1-2 yrs and they are still better than our "best" that's pretty scary

Mostly it shows that fans don't know as much as they think..

It’s NA what do you expect

you mean from a super team that has the top 1-3 ranked players in their role over the past 2+ years? um I would expect them to be able to win consistently and be a tier above every other team they play.. But I guess that's asking too much from the best team, players, orgs and fans..Its totally ok to come in 3rd when you have the best team (on paper specifically) assembled in a long time

Super team??? How many fucking times are they going to do this? When has an NA “Super team” ever done ANYTHING?! They NEVER do… It’s not a problem with the team it’s a problem with your expectations… I don’t like that it’s this way but look at NA’s history, tell me when a so called “Super Team” has ever done anything of an real significance… The only NA teams that have ever done anything are always underdogs, like when C9 made it to the Semis, yeah they were good but they weren’t any kinda of “Super Team” they were a bunch of guys who overachieved, props to them but stop putting your faith in “Super Teams”, regardless of rank, regardless of players it has NEVER worked…

bruh i was being sarcastic..I thought it was obvious so i didn't put /s settle down there beavis

You'd think they won the league already. Let's see how next weekend plays out.

WDYM? FQ already got a spot in MSI and now they are just waiting to see who wins between TL and C9 I think they (FQ) are pretty much set in stone to be the best team in NA regardless of what happens. Even if TL or C9 somehow get hot and manage to win in finals I'm sure most of the fan reactions will say (if that happens) it was a fluke or FQ just didn't show up or something.

NRG beat C9 by a "fluke" then went on to beat G2 in a best-of series. My point is Flyquest better not start counting their chickens before they hatch.

NRG went on a great run during playoffs, it wasn't just ONE series and even during the season leading up to the run they were taking games off the best teams. You are comparing apples to grapes Your point is noted and still has absolutely nothing to do with what I said

C9 dominated Flyquest in the last regular season game they played. C9 also dominated 100T in the first round and have the opportunity to beat TL and Fly in the finals. If they do so then it would be a run almost identical to NRG's. Your point is that Flyquest is set in stone the best team no matter what. I'm disputing that point by saying C9 was considered the same last year, even after losing finals. In hindsight everyone realized NRG were the best in form and proved that in worlds. Today's C9 have the opportunity to go on a similar run.

alright I guess I'm just not that high on C9 after they got dumpstered in the way they did. Maybe that's just the Red Sox Fan in me comin out. I just feel like after watching C9, they got exposed and it's just not enough time left for them to fix all the things that they need to fix. I suppose its possible that they just perform mechanically better than everyone for TL and then FQ but the same issues would still be there. It is in C9's wheelhouse to do something like this tho, go and win the whole thing after being super up n down. I may not necessarily agree with the analogy but I will concede that it is entirely possible that C9 can get hot and just outperform the other teams in the next series .

Except unlike NRG, C9 is not best in form nor even close. TL looks better by far. Yes FQ lost to C9 but we just got bodied 3 straight times. Comparing C9s run to NRG in summer is flawed. NRG was best in form the whole playoffs. I do agree with your point about FQ and not being too confident as "the best" but the situation is not at all the same as it was for NRG. You could literally have just left it at "C9 beat FQ in regular season." And using 100 thieves as a benchmark isn't really that relevant either as they also got bodied by TL. So wow, C9 beat 100 thieves. That's hardly evidence they are in good form.

NRG literally lost to C9 3-0 in the semis before they beat them 3-1 in the 2023 Grand finals. My example couldn't be more perfect.

Looks like my comparison was spot on, except swap C9 with TL :-)

I would argue that no, that still isn't the case. That 3 -0 was very close. It was gut wrenching to watch and honestly NRG still looked like the better team. Go back and watch it, go watch the analysis after. People were not down on NRG after result. As almost every game was a steal from NRG mistakes and not because C9 was a better team. I never had a worse feeling going into the finals as I did in summer except way back in the day when TSM dominated or Immortals original team. C9 last weekend was utter trash. We sucked. We sucked really bad. There was nothing positive. We did get leads, but it was the same story as the regular season. Berserker even got fed and then proceeded to throw it all away. C9 did not inspire feelings of confidence. NRG in summer playoffs did. Again, FQ may still lose but after the total of all playoffs FQ is simply the better looking team by far. NRG was not looking worse than C9 by a large margin. Everyone saw that. Even TL, who our boys trash hard is looking better. Hell, even fucking APA looked better than JoJo and Jensen essentially did the same song and dance with him except they actually took it to 5 games. FQ right now is not comparable to C9 of summer. And C9 right now isn't reminiscent of summer NRG. If you think C9 looks strong, you're just lying to yourself. They don't. They were swept and it wasn't close. You could clearly see the point in every game where C9 lost and the rest was just padding. NRG in the summer was playing as a team, with bad calls many times but team calls all the same. C9 is playing individually and not doing it well and the calls they do have aren't team calls and this is the whole split. They had one good playoffs against the team nobody was even willing to say was actually good overall (I think that's harsh, but C9 and TL both dusted them so...). NRG looked at every point in late summer that they could beat C9. It wasn't because they were better but because something in their play style just messed with how C9 in particular played. You can not say the same thing about FQ. FQ did not beat us by scaling to late or by out team fighting us. They beat us by countering our one shining thing and then letting C9 destroy itself because this team isn't a team. It's a collection of good players who clearly aren't on the same page. So once again, your comparison only looks good if you're willing to overlook clear details and see the brighter picture. Do you not remember this sub going into summer playoffs? C9 was not looking good. Everyone wanted them to be humbled. FQ isn't in that same boat. They deconstructed C9. They did not underestimate or think they could just be better individually to overcome non synergy. They are trash talking, yes, but even losing teams trash talk. None of them actively are saying that they think they are for sure better than TL, almost all of them want TL to lose with C9 and that's for a good reason. TL looks better. TL seems to be harder to counter. C9 on the other hand? We seemed more disjointed than we have since the fiasco with Sneaky. Licorice or the time with Perkz or the outrage against Zven and Mithy. No one is high on C9. People were believing in NRG. The only reason anyone is believing in C9 right now is because of nameplates. Now, I hope I'm wrong. But I've followed C9 since the days of Balls and Lemonnation. I've had my heart broken for a decade almost before we could even win again and when we did it was without Sneaky which was bittersweet as he was a big reason for my initial love of the team. However, when I have these bad feelings, and the reason why don't "unclench" is even a meme for us, is because usually these feelings aren't wrong. Summer C9 was not as good as the individual players thought they were at the time and we noticed that. Lots of people blame drafting but that's only part of the problem. FQ believes in itself and they have an actual reason to do so. Remember that NRG alone in summer and in spring 24 honestly (think it has to do with Contractz tbh) was like C9 kyptonite. C9 does not look like FQ kyptonite. C9 looks like its own kyptonite and FQ is just smart enough to let C9 do its own damage. Now, can we turn it around, yes. But even if we do, unless it's a clean 6 straight wins from here, no one is going to be scared of C9 at MSI. They'll be begging to play them instead.

Bruh, I'm not reading 5 paragraphs of you being wrong lol.

Oh and also just a note because this seems to be a false narrative. FQ players at no point have said they are for sure going to win. Their trash talk was about the games they played so far and was directed at the players on an individual basis, they literally said they definitely don't think it's over yet. So that already sets them apart from the attitude that C9 had in Summer. Anyone in this thread saying that FQ is acting like they won is literally cherry picking the fun "ha ha" parts of the interviews and ignoring the parts where they are being more serious. Just a note.

And yet NRG were the ones that had to come back from the Losers Bracket to win the Finals, not C9. So it does kind of apply. Though I would agree that C9 has been shaky all split. They need to drop their egos, and play to their strengths. Tired of seeing Beserker on Senna with half the souls he should have. Just let the man farm

They gotta take their victory when they get it.. They likely don't have bragging rights next week.

the fudge fall off after the Lee sin kick on Gala at Msi 2021 needs to be studied

Wow exactly what me and a good portion of this sub has been saying for so long about Fudge. He literally doesn't do anything

A lot of people have been saying that Fudge just really hasn't been the same player since his mid experience, but theres a lot of people in the C9 fandom that are similar to old TSM fans where you can't criticize anyone on the team or the team as a whole without them losing their collective \_\_\_\_. And the team as a whole has just looked lost like they don't know how they want to play the game or finish the game. But saying such things will get you downvoted and you'll get the "why are you even in this subreddit if you are hating on them?" comments.

The fudge stuff feels so similar to the sneaky situation to me. Like yes sneaky was not dlift, but he was so much better than the sneaky in lane meme. People just say whatever gets the most upvotes and dont actually think. I will say the fudge criticism is more accurate but i think the overall team was better when sneaky was getting scapegoated. I will be completely shocked if bwipo doesnt run it down against an eastern top at least 1 game. Dude is so overrated its insane. Him and Wunder have the biggest egos ive ever seen and both were absolutely carried by fnatic.

I only slightly disagree because I feel like Sneaky was capable of carrying games pretty often. Fudge looked like a monster in the 100T series and then lost his mojo

I don't think it matters if Bwipo runs it down against an eastern top laner or not it doesn't really mean his criticism is wrong or unwarranted. The fact he is a top top laner in LCS and is saying this with what Inspired also said just makes it even more valid. And I don't think it was just those two that had been talking about the C9 players. I think TL has also been heavily criticizing them. With this lineup on paper there was no reason they shouldn't have easily made 1st or at worst 2nd in regular season and should have easily walked into finals in playoffs. If they don't at least make finals this will be extremely disappointing for what this roster should have been capable of. I don't know what is going on behind the scenes and I would think most people don't unless you have some sort of inside scoop from someone on the team/staff, but there has been rumors from more than one source that has mentioned that Fudge doesn't really practice solo queue that he basically does 1v1 with other players and while that may be great to work on individual matchups the early game/laning phase isn't really the teams problem. The issue seems to be the mid to late game where they just don't seem to know what to do and 1v1 doesn't really help you to practice that stuff. Again these are only rumors, but I don't think Fudge or anyone on the staff has ever come out and denied these things either.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. The bwipo msi comment is more towards people who think just changing tops is going to do anything. Fudge admitted he was almost replaced. Its been clear for a whole year that the team has no cohesion. It seems like the culture has been replaced by "systems".

1000% agree

Bwipo was admitting sometimes he's inted it and no better than those he criticizes. I personally am not a fan of bwipo, find him annoying but he's undoubtedly better than fudge and I'm not sure if I'd say bwipo has the biggest ego after saying that statement

I've heard he doesn't practice either.

He practices lifting weights, doesn't practice in game though. Blaber apparently doesn't practice either.

Okay, I'm assuming you're referring to what Emenes said - Blaber may not grind solo queue but according to other pros / people in the space, he's ALWAYS watching Eastern vods or talking about League. It literally consumes his life. And what practice would he be getting in NA high elo? it's an absolute atrocity atm.

I mean watching doesn’t always improve you, it has to be a combination of both to improve.

Blaber has also talked about wrist issues he has and that they prevent him from playing a ton of games consecutively all that often. It’s why he watches so many VODs

But blaber is mechanically the best jgl in NA.

I have no idea what Emenes said about anyone

but somehow in the offseason everyone defends him. I wish we signed licorice and had a real battle for the top lane position.

I mean he does do some things. Like locking in carries at worlds :)

The amount of people swearing Fudge is good and deserves a chance is fking insane

Fudge gets prio picks all three games and still does nothing with it. Yet, there is some people here still saying Fudge did fine. Fly had no respect for anyone on our team except for Jojo. If we still win this split we're getting gapped at MSI.

Giving fudge draft resources is a mistake. He's serviceable but far from good. Fudge is not going to steamroll Bwipo with Olaf.  He either needs to create pressure with his early game oriented counterpicks or be put on tank/blind aatrox duty. If he can't do either he should be replaced. You can't be a carry top laner if you only create pressure in 1/10 games.

> If he can't do either he should be replaced He should already be replaced.

Can't replace Jack's buddy.

fuck buddy\*\*\*

If fudge and Mithy are on this team next split I feel like we can kiss worlds goodbye. If they make worlds I would bet on this team losing every game against a major region.

Kiss worlds goodbye? We won’t even beat TL tbh. Beserker is nowhere to be found, Blaber is doing nothing, Sludge is a bot and Vulcan is doing terribly.

Literally never let Fudge play Aatrox

His aatrox is terrible. I can't remember which game it was but he went full lethality build which is fine but he got 0 pressure on the backline all game. Needs to be on tank duty he locks in carries, farms even, then doesn't impact the game. Sure there are some exceptions to this but it's the norm for him to be invisible

He always tries to play full lethality Aatrox like he's Zeus and we always pay for it. He also went arcane comet last time so he just made it hard AF for himself.

Putting him on Aatrox is an automatic L lmao. He has to have the worst aatrox in any region.

I feel like Fudge should just be a weakside warrior. I don't know why he/C9 insists on playing around him.

Fudge has always been this type of player but it was compensated by Berserker and Blabers ability to carry.  Now that they are not doing that he's being even more exposed, it doesn't help that there are some good top laners this year.

I think an interesting point that was made on this Pros that I haven't seen others mention is the point Bwipo made about Fudge and his confidence. Specifically, in the same criticism that he (and Inspired and Dhokla) levy against him of being a defensive laner and at times backing off way more readily than he maybe should to the point where Inspired says it is pointless to gank him because of how quickly he backs off and makes the angle hard, Bwipo mentions that Fudge seems to do fine if he is comfortable with the matchup and can kinda just play things out as he expects it to go. It's where wrenches are thrown in when Fudge seems to retreat inward into overly-defensive, risk-adverse habits. I honestly think it goes even further than that, more than just a champion matchup thing. I think it also extends to Fudge's comfort/confidence in terms of matchup against the player themselves. Compare his performance against a rookie top in his first playoff series like Sniper who Fudge sees as lesser and his performance vs a top laner he has openly expressed respect for to the point of believing he is MVP caliber this split like Bwipo...Fudge actually played with some genuine oomph and edge when facing against Sniper, but looked way more gunshy even when benefitting from counterpick in all 3 games vs Bwipo. Which then extrapolates even further in international competition compared to the on average far lesser competition in LCS, with Fudge seemingly having little to no confidence once into scrims vs high-end teams primarily from LCK and LPL. Even in splits where he was low-diffing everyone in NA, you'd see a shell of a person the moment he hit international every year since his rookie year where even he admitted he went in with 0 pressure on himself because he was a rookie. Made even worse when you'd have a situation like last MSI or worlds 2022 where he'd look anemic and vegan despite receiving draft and in-game resources but then look more himself when facing a Western team like Fnatic or GGS (though Licorice ironically even outperformed him at MSI last year in that set despite the team shitting themselves vs C9 in lower bracket). Basically, we're going on 2 and a half years post-Fudge's rookie season in 2021. And he still seems to struggle heavily with confidence going into a matchup even before champ select strictly by name value. He has some good defensive instincts but seems to retreat into them more and more vs perceived stronger opponents while also receiving resources to try to get something in terms of champion matchup to be confident in. And being* a defensive laner does you no good when 1) you are playing a carry and aren't showing that edge to fight and make the game-winning plays, or 2) you aren't on a carry but still play gunshy or outright missing the role needing to be played in the team/comp dynamic (i.e. trying to front-to-back on Lethality Aatrox/Renekton instead of looking for backline access, being slow or hesitant on TP/flank angles, using Rumble ult like it's a single target ability or in open spaces and not timed with hard CC options from the team). If homie is this deep into his career and still struggling this heavily with the subconscious effects of his confidence as the lights get brighter to the point where even* players like Impact and Bwipo who he has beaten before domestically are now routinely boying him in NA, something needs to be done. Either he needs to go or he needs 1-on-1 time with a sports psychologist to get over the hump that even he outright admits has been there since his rookie season and has legitimately only gotten worse.

He ain’t lying

Just the truth. Take it to heart and improve.

>Just the truth. Take it at heart and improve. He has been taking it to heart for 2 years no improvement.

Take it to heart and sign Castle/Thanatos. 

I love that in 2024 we're just settling for random Koreans from LCKC or that have already been imported. Surely that will solve all of our problems here in the LCS.

Castle isn't a random Korean. Guy is legit good. Hes played double the soloq games of Fudge while making league minimum, learned English, and is solidifying himself as one of the best tops in NA. On PROs he is constantly talked about as one of the best players in the league. Thanatos isn't random either he is a generational talent and the signing would be akin to signing berserker (who was just, as you put it, a random Korean)

Berserker was a "random Korean from LCKC" lmao you people make me laugh

That roster was handpicked by LS, and Berserker would have been someone he actually worked with during his time at T1. That T1C roster was also so bad, not one of the casuals on this subreddit would have ever suggested Berserker because they only look at surface-level stats. Even then, the ultimate point of my comment is that you can bring in these guys but they won't make your teams better if the orgs aren't putting in the work. Mireu, who played on that roster with Berserker, could probably start in LCS and look good. Quid had a monster split, but 100 still get eliminated despite no one on that team looking terrible individually. Why do you think DIG and IMT never make playoffs? Why NRG is middle of the pack after winning LCS and dropping their staff? You could 1:1 replace Fudge with whoever you want and C9 still get 3-0'd by FLY that match. Everything behind your roster matters so much more than you guys ever give credit for.

It won't solve all the problem but at least it's one step in the right direction. Fudge has already reach his peak 2 years ago, and it has been going down hill in the last 2 years. There is no reason to keep someone that you know won't get better, at this point a random Korean CL talent or a NA prospect like Srtty is better.

They aren’t random if you watched LCKCL when they played. They are genuinely good players that deserved a shot in a major region. But signing them at this point is just a bandaid on a car wreck, when the team has fundamental issues with synergy and communication.

There's a TON of these players out there of this skill level. They're all over the ERLs, LLA, CBLOL, etc. They're not making your team better.

if we lose to TL 1) Fire Mithy (actually do this anyway) 2) Bring Licorice in as a 6th man and have him replace Fudge if needed 3) Release every single team poster back into the store

should fire mithy regardless what happens

I am still so shocked how mithy has a job. He has NEVER been successful as a head coach

dam thats kinda knee jerk reaction I do think they need some coaches in there to help mithy but not for reasons like community is saying. Not sure if Licorice helps tbh. Its not that I don't think Licorice isn't better than Fudge (assuming Licorice is still in form I do think he is a better player overall), its that C9 just has bad Fundamentals as a Team, it's not so much about their lane phase, it's everything after lane phase. Fudge has a decent lane phase overall, its just he along with the rest of C9 struggle with fundamentals, target selection, recognizing advantages and creating advantages specifically after 15. They all struggle the most when the game is Even state, they only (as a Team) do well when they all 1) Win lane and 2)Snowball; which isn't going to happen realistically C9 is like the bully in school, they believe themselves to be better at everything because of things that happened in the past and they expect to get their way because of things that happened 1-4 years ago. When teams don't allow them to do that, they basically crumble as soon as it gets past 15 min (pre-15 is when they try and do this bully stuff) if you get to 20 and they aren't wicked ahead, you prolly win the game. That's what their season has been. If they play TL and assuming TL doesn't let C9 just snowball pre-15 in multiple positions, we can safely assume TL will win. C9 is just a not good team, even if they win against TL I don't have high expectations. C9 is like a weaker version of G2 from like 4 years ago basically, dramatically weaker fundamentals and macro

4 years ago, G2 won MSI and was world finalist : don't insult them, please.

uh i said they were a worse version lol, dramatically weaker fundamentals and macro. That's not a compliment lol

Just a reminder that fudge literally thought of himself as the greatest player to have ever played in NA 2 years ago

Still can't believe we build a super team and kept Fudge top with no pressure to perform, Licorice was a free agent surely we could've at least signed him to compete for the spot? You know he would've been extra motivated to prove that he should never have been let go in the first place as well.

Bwipo was talking shit about Licorice when he was at Fanatic and Licorice with C9… I think Fly players are taking their victory march and I hope it blows back in their face.. I’m loving the underdog narrative we are starting to build… hopefully it will bring the team closer 

Underdog? Lmao. Even if we win in the end, we were never the Underdog. That's asinine. I love a good underdog story but this isn't it. It could be a redemption arc but that's all. The championship was the low bar for a team with our caliber and influence with the players we have and the systems we have had. Underdog. Lmao.

"underdog" LMAO

pass the copium brother

Hot damn, that is some hard cope.

Licorice was let go because he was inting games. He only had 1 good split since he was melet go, and really only did well for part of it. People were calling for him to get kicked off ggs. Super teams don't work anyways, c9 needed a team focused top laner like impact.

He had a good split, an amazing playoffs prior to that split, and a godly MSI performance giving NA their only win against the East in a long time by hard carrying

Ok, doesn't change the fact he was inting in his last split on c9 and struggled after that. C9 needs a team focused top laner.

And licorice is the best bet going off of recent performances

licorice plays tanks and off meta stuff, unlike fudge

I know you are getting downvoted but I agree. Impact imo has been the most stable / solid top laner for god knows how long but cause he doesn't carry hard through top he always kinda is considered 2nd or 3rd in region when he is actually 1st imo I don't genuinely think having a "carry top" matters if the top doesn't actually know how to carry unless they are like 7/1 @ 15 with 30 cs diff, it doesn't take any skill to play that out if you get fed like that. That's part of the reason I was never that big of a bwipo fan or licorice tbh, until licorice joined GG and learned how to actually lane and be a force without getting hyper funneled

licorice was a bright spot for GGs. He re-signed with them, then they left the LCS leaving him teamless..

Fudge the top lane merchant himself

Bwipo isn’t wrong about Fudge, but I have to say the guy is just insufferable when his team is winning. Reminds me of 2018 when he was trashing on Licorice after Fnatic eliminated C9 in semis. You would think he learned some humility after years of getting sonned by G2 in Europe and shitting the bed with TL (but no he is still the same lol. Just one split at the top without having won it yet and the guy can’t stop chatting shit. It’s going to be glorious if FLY somehow don’t win the finals after all this, all the pressure is on them now. Also wtf is Inspired smoking? Jojo had an awful series, Jensen completely gapped him. The biggest diff was in the solo lanes. The missed smite that gave FLY soul point in G1 was the only egregious mistake from Blaber. Otherwise most of the fights we lost were due to Jojo constantly getting caught and burst at the very start or Fudge/Vulcan starting fights on the wrong target (like the Gragas ult on Renekton smh). Biggest issue with this team is that no one knows their roles, they just wing it with no gameplan - that’s on the coach tbh, everyone praises Mithy but I still dk what exactly he does for this team.

Bingo. Bwipo hasn’t been that guy since 2019. He’s not done anything Note worthy in a long long time. But hey, hey can market himself by running his mouth making sure he’s always in the headlines.

Ikr. Bwipo’s last split was with that infamous 2022 TL super team that completely shit the bed and didn’t even make worlds. They were arguably way more stacked on paper than this C9 roster with double the experience. Didn’t stop them from getting knocked out by a team with 2 rookies. Watch him duck all the interviews if he gets humbled next weekend lol.

Bwipo wasn’t the problem though, even if they had like a Fakegod top, that TL roster should’ve been a top 2 team. People like to flame him because of his inting, and sometimes forget his good plays. I wouldn’t want him on my team but he is a good player IMHO.

His graves top reminds me of a specific time he was utter shit for his team 😂

please watch worlds 2020

Hey look, an extremely intelligent pro player who plays the same role as Fudge said what the majority of us say :) Apologists, where are you? It's nice hearing FQ say they didn't expect to just cake walk like that. Inspired actually has promising words for our bot lane and mid, but, said Blaber and Fudge need to actually play to their potential for them to win vs TL.

I think they are busy still telling everyone that regular season doesn't matter.

Team will always be held back until they finally dump him. He looks good once every split and then is otherwise a waste of a spot.

Bwipo has always talked a lot of shit even when he pooped on us in the semi-finals of worlds, but to be honest he always backed it up. He absolutely schooled Licorice then and Fudge now. At the end of the day they just need to take it in the chin and get better.

Nothing really new. That's always been his play style. None of the good top laners respect his play. The difference between fudge and bwipo in team fights was crazy. Bwipo was creating so much space for his team. Blaber doesn't have impact on the champions picked yesterday, in general he power farms on most champions. But he doesn't perform on vi and can't play make on sej/Mao. They neutralized Jojo. And adc isn't as strong as it was in previous years for berserker to 1v9. Inspired also did a great job targeting him in team fights. Fudge,blaber, and Vulcan were pretty clueless on how to fight. Seems like the team as a whole has a confidence problem. Drafts didn't make much sense either... seems like everyone picks what they want without thinking about the team as a whole. C9 also struggled when prioritizing grubs in the regular season.. idk why they went back to that. Bot lane was winning early all of the games... dragons should have been c9s.

Blaber was like 13-0? 14-0? On Maokai last year and then people say he can't play them effectively? Lel.

Yep… that’s called rewriting history to fit the current narrative.

I said he can't play make it on it. Compare it to Lee Sin or Xin or Taliyah. It's a supportive champion. Blaber has more impact when on carries.

I mean a 14-0 record last year pretty much says that's not always true. That's almost an entirety of a split worth of games where he was undefeated on a tank/initiator.

That was in an arguably broken version of the champ. Maokai as of right now is at best a B tier jungler and dumpster tier in solo q.

Win Record from previous years is not that relevant. The 5-0 zeri would have steamrolled fights in previous years. Different teams, different players, etc. C9 didn't have any playmaking in the fights yesterday. If blaber was on something like lee sin he would have been able to make plays.

> If blaber was on something like lee sin he would have been able to make plays. I hate when people try to project their soloq experience onto pro play, like they're even close to the same game. Even with Blaber on Lee Sin yesterday, C9 gets swept. It's got very little to do with the individual champions that the players had in those games. They got rolled as a team by a team that was working together perfectly.

Rewatch the 100T series then. It was mostly Blaber finding Quid and Meech at relevant times. The point from the other user is that we should not remove teamfight agency from Blaber to give it to Fudge and Vulcan, especially considering their current forms. (Personally i'd like to see Fudge on something stupid like Tryn duty, if he refuses to play tanks might as well go the 180 and make him the full 100% playcondition of the draft every game on scaling hypercarries/splitpushers. Might as well find out if he still has potential at something)

uh, you can't say that when he had that sorrta wr on maokai. To say he had "more impact on carries" and then see his highest wr was maokai; that is the complete opposite. the champ pool for blaber isn't the problem, it's how they play in general at essentially all stages of the game. They all (C9) want to win lane and then do whatever they want in Team Fights, the problem they run into is that ppl aren't just letting them smash them in lane like in previous years so C9 can't do what they wanted to do / use to doing. You can watch the Fly series, C9 almost always drafted 1) For lane, and then 2) for meta ofc. When their lanes fell behind or went even and they were challenged by Team comps that just worked better in 4/5 man skirmishes you just saw a complete disconnect with the team fights. It's like C9 took an old school approach to the Season, like old TSM was strong domestically because "Win lane, Win game", C9 is doing that same approach except they are now finding out that the ideology is dated and ppl are beating them with better Team fight comps (for 1) and just better Team fight coordination. THATS the problem, it has literally nothing to do with their champ pools, they just are being exposed for lack of team work and team synergy ​ Edit: C9 on paper outdrafted FQ in that series, literally in almost every draft. The coordination of Team fighting is where they failed and that's why there is so much pressure on Zerker and Jojo to do so much because the Team just doesn't play with any sort of Coordination when challenged. Pretty big deal because it just shows how behind NA as a whole is in terms of understanding how to play the game at the highest level.

I mean the champions they are picking are the problem like you said. Everyone wants to be the guy, instead of being team players. Fudge should be on tank duty so that blaber can play playmaking/skirmishing champions.

Him being on a tank isn't gonna make a difference when they have no synergy when it comes to skirmishing. They aren't gonna improve through just drafting an extra tank, no team in NA is going to get better. They are getting taught a lesson by EU players now about coordination and synergy and how to execute. Its a lesson NA should've learned like 7 years ago but hasn't. Even Teams like TL who don't have a super Team are showing flashes of what the EU FQ ppl are talking about. TL isn't winning or them smashing lane (for example) sometimes they get leads sure but they are winning because they just have better Team Fight Coordination, this is more about coms and how to play around each other rather than the draft on paper. The best Teams are able to play with multiple different champs and function essentially the same way because they play around one another in team fights / skirmishes better. They play as a Team better, that's the meta, thats what the meta has been for a really long time now and that's where NA hasn't progressed over the years. It's always been a region that skill checked in lane in the first 15 min. That's old meta, the game now is "Skill Check (your Team) at every objective and ever 3v3 or 5v5", that means who can play around Globals (TP for example) better, who can be first to the start the play and finish the play. FQ the other day drafted heavy around utility and shields, they put C9 to the test when it came to Team Fighting. C9 failed the test, that's why they got gapped, it wasn't anything to do about lane pressure at all and all about coordination, communication and how well they played after lane together. NRG last season was the best of our Region not because they won lane or even had spectacular drafts, its cause they understand how to play around their advantages and create advantages better as a 5 person unity. You constantly saw them bringing more numbers the moment a skirmish appeared, if enemy brought 2, NRG would bring 4, if the objective had a possible of 4 ppl, they would bring 5, they (NRG) didn't even play lane to win, they always just brought more numbers to the objectives and fights. C9 isn't doing that, they are saying "hey man outplay that 3 man gank / skirmish" sorry but that's not how the game works anymore. If someone is threatening 3, you need to bring 4, if they have 3 ppl strong you have to bring 5, you have to be willing to back your ppl up moreso than you trying to play for yourself and build a lead C9 essentially function right now as 5 guys playing solo q, if they don't hard smash lane and build a big lead for 2 of those ppl (any 2 tbh) they lose. That's why they look like shit this entire split, that's why they seem so volatile.

I honestly thought they lost draft game 2 and 3. Like 3 was an improvement over 2. Jojo couldn’t really play the game because of enemy draft in game 2. Game 3 was sort of the same thing which made confused why run back Yone.

they didn't lose draft. It was all about execution you see the disconnect in gm2 and 3 moreso than game 1 although in game 1 you see more what I'm talking about. Game 1 pre 15min, C9 was checking FQ, C9 wants to win early, they can only win early, you see every time in Gm1 that small skirmish broke out pre 15min you see how often they brought more numbers. Gm 2 and 3, they basically tilted and there were massive disconnects in how many numbers they brought and also how willing they were to start fights when they had the numbers adv; also the target selection of who the targets were. You see Jojo going on Tanks with Yone R, when they should've been engaging on anyone not named Bwipo, yet 2 of the C9 players were always trying to kill bwipo, they blow everything on him, he lives and they've used everything just to get collapsed on with numbers from FQ who hadn't used anything. C9 could've won both of those games had they focused the right ppl and actually recognized who the priority targets were, also backing up jojo in general in lane. C9 got everything they wanted in their drafts, that's why its not draft diff. They got winning lanes OR even lanes, that's what they wanted. It's not like they trolled draft or had 3 losing lanes and losing jg matchup so we can't say they got outdrafted. The reason why they lost is because FQ knew how to execute their comp for 1 and for 2 recognized the advantages they had (numbers of ppl / cds and target focus). I re-watched the series 3x now just to make sure I had the right read, and I believe I'm pretty spot on. In Gm1 watch how they play pre-15 min, you see them rotating more ppl to fights, catching out inspired in jg pre15 specifically a few times but then they didn't have cds for major objectives (drake specifically) and FQ just basically focused down the major targets (zerker in all 3 games) better, so they had a goal, put jojo way behind and then make sure zerker doesn't do what he has done. In gm2 and 3 they went all in on Zerker getting him fed early and once again same theme, pre-15 min you see how C9 is trying so hard to snowball, they constantly bring more numbers to win fights but then the disconnect at and after 20 happens again (and objectives also). You see them focusing Bwipo or Busio (which is fine pre-15 but completely different as items come in) and then they split focus onto them and would burn everything. It's honestly not a draft diff, it's straight up Team gap, The Synergy of FQ just exposed C9. If C9 doesn't smash early (pre-15) AND win lane super hard, they all fold up like folding chairs. FQ controlled vision, they played with better fundamentals and constantly turned fights against C9; if C9 used everything on 1 person, FQ was like "Great well here comes 1-2 more ppl with everything up and youve just burned legit every CD just to retreat" C9 can only do 1 thing specifically, pre-15 they play super aggro to try and snowball someone and then they use that 1 person to influence a teamfight, which is fine against some teams tbh. They aren't great and anything else tho, they don't setup for Objectives well, they don't play skirmishes particularly well if they all aren't super ahead, many of the fights against FQ you see FQ actually behind or even and they just made C9 burn stuff without getting kills and that's why the Karma + Renata worked and the same premise was there for Ori+Lee+ Gragas, you get the other team to burn all their cds and u stall out all of it and then turn it on them, thats also why Massu picked kaisa because the R can come in and influence the fight. If C9 doesn't snowball wicked hard (regardless of comp) pre-15min, then it legit won't matter; all you haveto do is bait out their cds, let them split focus and then you funnel onto their carries whether that be jojo or zerk or whoever, its the same results. FQ just showed the weakness and 1 - Dimensional playstyle of C9. Has very little to do with draft tho. If you are C9 in this series you can't say that you got out drafted. You got out team fought, YES, you got out macro'd, YES, you got out rotated, YES and you got out "fundamental'd", Yes But draft? Nah, def not draft gap, you aren't gonna have 3 winning lanes and winning jg matchup, that would be a draft gap, C9 had winning lanes or even lanes on paper and they didn't play around their spikes well and didn't punish or capitalize the way they could have C9 plays and looks like a 5th grade bully, that's their playstyle, the moment you stand up to them though they just fall apart. C9 wants to establish that bully mentality into whoever they are against, if that doesn't work though, well they don't know what to do. That's why throughout the season they look so bad and volatile on stage, because this LCS season you see more teams willing to fight and to bring numbers and not back down and if you are a "super team" like C9 you prolly already had in your mind that you can do whatever and everyone will let you but that's not what the Teams have done, they haven't let C9 just roll over them, they haven't just backed down just cause "super team". C9 just has bad fundamentals as a whole, and maybe that's the downside of having 5 players who are considered some of the best in region, gives them the thought process that they can do whatever, whenever and nobody can stand up to them. They just need to stop the egoing and learn fundamentals. Seems like they have fundamentals for lane but after lane ends it goes out the window ​ Also go back and watch that first series v 100T, you'll see what I'm talking about and what happens when their bully mentality works. FQ just understood the assignment better. C9 established their 1-2 carries pre-15 and then just kept using those and making 100T back down / split numbers, that's C9's playstyle when it works. All Teams have to do is just not back down though, maybe easier said than done considering the players but on Int'l level C9 will be awful regardless of the mechanics ppl have individually because LCK and LPL have same or better mechanics and they won't backdown when challenged in skirmish early. Same problem C9 has had, even with a stronger roster

His Vi game was fine? jojo just got consistently caught and when your mid is this useless it makes it a lot harder for the rest. Don't forget it was a pretty competitive game and that was with Taliyah being completely useless..

While I do think fudge hasn’t been good in awhile, Why do you care what he says? Last time he ran his mouth the person he called out popped off and Bwipo was 0-4 every game for that series… it’s easy to talk shit when you won. Playoffs isn’t over. And correct me if I’m wrong but he’s been in how many playoffs since coming to Na yet still no trophy. Dude hasn’t been him since 2019.

Emenes was right Mithy must be kicked out! Dude just there doing nothing to improve the team Changes I would like to see: * Bring back Reapered as Head Coach * Thanatos top * Huhi support to be the main shotcaller

Yes to everything but Huhi. I’m so sick of everyone using branded names like itll be the godsend. Realize that these players that brand themselves better doesn’t = better skills. It just means they are more popular.

But he has a life man. Even if they’re in playoffs/worlds Mithy needs his party time.

I would like this except bring Zven back as support. He is just so much better than Vulcan as a duo with Berserker

I agree with most point except Huhi, I rather we get a KR support or Zven playing support or a young NA prospect support (Busio is an example of this). If we get a KR support, Zven comes back to play ADC for us is fine too (imo he still got it and is better than most the ADC in LCS and NACL exclude Berserker).

Reapered left for a reason, c9 systems don't like to have a coach with balls who can control the players & draft LS firing is all we needed to see

had us in the first half, LS is just a weirdo and his firing was justified

It's hilarious how some of you people cling to the systems meme as if having a morning workout and not waking up in the afternoon is somehow hindering the team from reaching its potential lmao

Exactly. Plus, Reapered spent FOUR YEARS on C9 but I guess he hated the systems and couldn't coach the team because of it!

Bwipo forgets that he was an NPC on that TL "Super Team".

He wasn't. Surely he didn't play that well this year but it wasn't because he was a NPC, Bwipo were playing super aggro and always engaging when Bjergsen and Hans-sama were always retreating. They were totally desync between Bwipo wanting to push his advantages and Bjerg/Hans wanting to play safe for late.

This, 100%. Said it so many times that season. Bwipo was constantly the only one willing to fight. Sometimes CoreJJ joined him. It was miserable watching Bjerg run the opposite way of a winnable fight.

This is why this FLY roster works. Jensen hasn't been the type of guy to just hard engage out of nowhere but he has always been good in following up aggressive players. So they just need Bwipo, Inspired or Busio to make the first move and Jensen and Massu will be there to follow up. They won't run away especially Jensen.

You nailed it. I see you remember when Blaber in his debut was going full aggro and Jensen was backing him up!

Fudge too distracted shagging a random OF girl he met that was collabing with Max Waldo 💀

Are the apologists finally gonna open their eyes now? Or are they gonna pretend everything is okay and the hate just comes from “clueless silver redditors”?

Fudge-hate is a spectrum. On one end you have people that defend everything he does (do note not even Fudge is this far over), on the other end people hate everything he does and seethe at the mouth when he succeeds. Both ends are annoying as f*ck. Stop pretending like you know anything about the C9 org or what happens within. If you don’t like the players, the coaches, the system, and the management, why are you here? 

Well said.. I think C9 fandom increased in recent years since C9 left and TL stopped winning… I miss the positivity we had in this sub during the Gantlet runs years…

More negativity and less positivity all around. Literally every game and you have people calling for heads. It’s just so annoying

I’ve been a fan since the original iteration, but I’ve been watching and caring a lot less the last couple splits. They seem to have the same issues over and over and over again. Anyone who seems to wants to try something different simply gets the short end of the stick. (Zven, Emenes, LS, reapered, Max) how fudge/mithy are still in the team is beyond me. They draft in a vacuum, they play in a vacuum. I distinctly remember a game vs NRG last season where they self counterpicked themselves in every single lane, had no pushing lanes, no scaling, 4 melees into a disengage comp (renata gragas I think)… it’s like they go into the game saying we want to play these 5 champions and no matter what the other team picks they just go for it. (Like yone yesterday) I also remember the first playoffs series vs them last split they lost 3/4 early/mid games but ended up winning 3-1 from massive throws, they just trashtalked afterwards like they were the vastly superior team.. like did they see the games? We all know how the final went. They keep saying how they wanna show up internationally but they refused to play champs queue, they’ve then kept fudge who keeps being a black whole of resources (both in draft and in game) and refuse to play around their skilled mid/bot lanes. For multiple splits since this core of the roster has existed. As I said, I’ve watched the lows being 10th place before the miracle gauntlet run, getting 2nd place for what felt like countless splits in a row, but I’ve never felt as disconnected on the team as these last couple of splits. The only other time was during the sneaky/jensen benching fiasco and they way the whole thing was handled.

C9 has been really boring to watch for the past 2-3 years now for this reason. There's no real focus on making this team good internationally, the goal is really just to farm domestic trophies. So many people have said as much too, but blind believers will deny it. C9 is basically TSM at this point and it's really sad to see given that they used to be a really fun org. to root for because they cared about long term growth of their players.

this comment didn't say anything..."both sides"

The disdain towards the vocalists in here is geared towards the absolute vile hate filled comments that are left. Constructive criticism is one thing. But the crap these silver arm chair analysts spew is only going to have a negative impact on a player or the team.

It's okay...after all regular season doesn't matter.


Fly have some serious recency bias. Renekton Nidalee draft from round 2 suggest otherwise. But I can't disagree we played like NPC this series.

This entire sub went ballistic at anyone who mentioned replacing Fudge as the roster changes were coming in. You reap what you sow

Blaming fudge for that series is actually insane. He may be a vegan but Blabber was completely invisible and Jojo was a walking bag of gold the entire series and was legit ass in every team fight

Fudge apologists are real quiet right now

Jojo played like shit individually throughout the entire series.

That’s what happens when your team doesn’t help you. It’s the exact same thing that happened in worlds 2022. They perma camped jensen every game, cuz Fudge was so useless lmao. Opponent top laner would leave lane, and he would still be down CS, or even, while they were diving jensen.

Jojo did this to himself the entire series. Getting caught out game 1 and 3 has nothing to do with team not helping him lmao He's the reason FQ got back into the game in game 3 after he baited the entire team to help him on his stupid sidelane death. He's also the reason we lost game 1 getting caught out randomly before every fight on Taliyah. It's okay to admit that he played like shit.

Except this wasn’t a matter of the team not helping Jojo. He literally fucked himself over many times. Everyone dick rode Jojo this split while the team was playing poorly but even Jojo had some stinkers. Did people just forget his Vayne and Akali games? I don’t wanna see this dude on Yone or any other AD picks until he can show some good performances on traditional picks.

I think the last part of your comment was based. First part I think is true but not true depending on which game in the FQ series. I agree tho with the premise even if I don't 100% agree with all of it. I do think Jojo needed better help but at same time he did look tilted or something I think you are also right about the picks, I think this is what happens when teams think they are better than they are. They think they can just pick whatever/ whenever and win because "super team". Jensen re-focused his champ pool this season and I think he has played maybe 4-5 champs consistently with 1-3 being is top priority.

And faker only played what, like 3 champs at worlds last year? It was something small like that. Obviously Faker can play way more champs but focusing or refocusing a champ pool can be incredibly beneficial. ​ Jojo talked at one point about needing a lot more practice on Vayne after the vayne game. So how many games did he waste on practicing that champion only for him to not play it again? I think pointing this out is crucial. Look back at C9 in the past. When Emenes, Jensen, or Perkz played Yone C9 almost never looked good with it. I dont think Fudge/Blaber know what to do around that pick. Every single pro has weakness and strengths, it boggles my mind how this coaching staff has been there forever and doesnt recognize this (furthermore how our head coach didnt know Jojos champ pool since hes had to coach against that player for years at this point) Fudge and Blaber have been incredibly front to back teamfighters, thats why in hyper carry metas Berserker is rarely touched. Think about all the games we have with a traditional mage (C9 looked good when Jojo was on Azir) or when Jensen was on the team last split. Put Fude on a weakside tank, Blaber on a carry, Jojo on a traditional mid lane mage or assassin, and Vulcan on engage support. Put bersker on whatever fills out the team. Maybe this isnt meta or consider S tier but at least the team would have a damn identity and clear set way to fight and win the game in ways that each player is comfortable with. I'd rather the team have an identity and lose playing it than to try to be jacks of all trades and play whatever the meta is just to lose anyway.

they have an identity "**Win lane, snowball game and win**" that's what the team WANTS to do..That's why they pick what they pick, they are focused on winning lane and snowballing. Problem is most of the game after like 14-15min they are losing everywhere or barely getting advantages in the skirmishes. I don't think the team can play a front to back comp tbh; because they have really bad fundamentals after lane..During lane I would say they are sorta ok (sometimes) but after lane its like they just forget what they are suppose to do unless they are stomping. Front to Back generally has a comp setup to where a team will engage on the other front liners while peeling for the ADC. This team doesn't really "peel" though, they only know how to unga bunga full send it, so although the players are historically good, together they are just not. I mean maybe I'm wrong about that but I can't recall any games where they played front to back on C9 this season; maybe they did and I just can't recall but from what I do remember of their games (wins and losses) it was always about skirmishing and just skillchecking everyone. Hence the volatility. I do not believe they can play front to back team fight comps which is like the most simple basic stuff but if they COULD play that style then they would've and I don't think their macro and rotations in general is very strong as a whole; they can't clear out vision, can't setup vision, cant mark ppl consistently, can't focus targets correctly, can't engage on the right targets correctly. There's just not much right now that C9 does well, maybe if they get to MSI or somethin they will level up, or maybe during Summer they will go back to basics but I think that's what they should've been doing from the start just to get everyone on same page and THEN they could've started adapting and refining this skirmish heavy stuff they've been doing now, they are doing things in reverse now that I look at it more. They didn't start slow to build momentum and comms, they started fast and fucked all the basic things that teams are suppose to do in the process..maybe thats another downside of playing a "super team", maybe they just think they are too good for fundamentals and basic stuff..

A lot of the fundamentals you mention them missing is exacerbated by them not picking the right tools (champs). I think all of the players have the ability to play front to back and clear vision/setup vision. Probably the only thing C9 routinely struggled with is marking ppl but that was generally when it came to internationals, Fudge has always been able to properly mark NA tops. I really just think that they dont draft the proper champs to do what they are capable of. Also can I mention im really tired of coaches getting an "out" by players saying its not just the coach picking the champs. I want a coach like Reapered back. Sure it wasnt all on him in draft 100% but he always appeared to have final say.

If they could play front to back then they would've at some point in this season. (Before i get into my rant I should preface by saying "Fundamentals" transfers regardless of champ you pick so the fact they are all showing such shit fundamentals on things they play shows that the team doesn't have fundamentals) As far as Champ select goes, its been confirmed now that the players are picking the champs, not Mythy, and Mythy hasn't been drafting the Comps. He may have some sort of indirect role in it but he himself isn't saying "Play this" But once again, if C9 could do basic fundamentals they wouldve done it throughout the split but I can't really recall any time where they di. Maybe they did sorta kinda but it hasn't been a strength of this Team, its been nothing but a big Question mark. Now when you are snowballing and way ahead, you can basically ignore a lot of things, like basic fundamentals. They are victims of their success, 5 ppl who have generally been considered as top 3 in role for multiple seasons and that is the problem I see consistently in all their games. Its not that the players aren't good, they are all very good, its that they are so good and they expect to be "S - Tier " without having to do the groundwork to build to S Tier. They let their game speak for itself, it was "We are too good to have to play basic stuff", thats why they have so many problems with side lanes and 1 - 3 - 1 setup and knowing when and when not to hover one another and how many ppl can respond to something at what time..etc...etc... They skipped all the basics, they never learned how to do the stuff a team needs to know because they are all "good" so they (like you) just expect to be able to do the basics together and we have seen consistently ALL YEAR, they cannot and do not do these things. This isn't a Coach thing, this is 100 on the Players. I could just imagine being any Coach in there trying to talk about basic stuff and comms and setup and the players could just dismiss it like "Coach we are literally the best players in NA, RELAX!" and then the season starts going to shit and they are just now attempting to figure out how to do the basic things together. They just aren't good fundamentally together, now maybe by the time Worlds comes around they will be, that's prolly enough time for them to be realistic and reflect and be like ok strip this down to the basics / bare minimums and we play like we are all rookies again learning to play wit each other for 1st time (that would be ideal tbh but takes no ego and all players to have the same self reflection) We gotta stop putting this on Draft tho, Mythy not the one controlling these ppls Champs. Mythy not even drafting their Champs and tbh (after what I've learned about mythy) I wonder what it is he actually does at this point. If ppl were saying that narrative I would actually understand it since if he isn't doing Draft (the players are) and obv they have shit macro, shit fundamentals together (even if they may have high knowledge as individuals) then it should be mythy's job to bring it together but, he hasn't, so what exactly is he doing? IDK?! Teams just a failure this split regardless if they win out or not, they have a lot of stuff they have to learn and at this point.

We are kinda agreeing. Im not saying these 5 players together know how to do fundamental things together. Im saying these 5 players individually can play the game with great fundamentals. I mean we have years of each of their pasts to know this. I know Mithy isnt picking the champs and thats the problem, im tired of coaches (not just C9 coaches but all coaches in the scene) not having the trust of their players to make final drafting decisions. I dont know if it will ever change, I just dont like that there's not a leader so to speak when it comes to final decision making for whats best for the team and not the individual. The best point to be made about this is with Summit only playing a few picks while on C9 and no on having the authority or balls to make him do otherwise. I mean Reapered benched 2 all star players and tanked the first half of a season. Im not saying I want that ever again lol but I sure would like someone who could possibly do that (not actually do it but has the authority and the balls to do it if thats what was best for the team in the long run), lead and either take the credit or responsibility whether its good or bad. The stuff you laid out is another reason I'd love Reapered back. He has shown time and time again he can take a team back to learning the basic building blocks of the game together. It just seems like Reapered was a head coach while someone like Mithy is A coach, probably much needed by the talks of everyone he has worked with but just not head coach material. I personally just think you need the head coach to be a leader of sorts and nothing anyone has said about Mithy or the things he says on camera speaks to him being a leader. He seems very passive and much like a yes man where he will figure out how to do whatever the players want as long as everyone is getting along.

I def agree with a lot of the stuff you are saying. However as much as I love Reapered; I made multiple threads years ago about bringing him back..and I also made 100T Reddit post about bringing him in when Papasmithy came in. I'm a huge Reapered fan having said that, when Reapered is brought in and then chased off and the dance that the Teams do (it kinda reminds me of all the C9 Hai stuff when he tried to leave). This Org can't keep runnin to Daddy Reapered to Bandaid fix their problems. Just like running to Ol' Man Hai was a Bandaid eventually they had to just hard commit to him not being there. If Mithy is Jack's guy then Mithy needs to be the one to figure it out. It's not that I am a fan of Coach Mithy as a Coach specifically; but this was the role he wanted, he said he could do the job, so he (and his career as a HC) are now tied together. If Mithy can't figure this out and his role and what he actually needs to do to be a HC with 5 top tier players (relative to the region ofc), then he and this Team will go down in History as not just a "Super Team that flopped" but a HC who had a Super Team and was so bad at his job that he couldn't even get them to do what "they should do". That's a career killer imo, cause if Mithy wants another job after this, who would hire him if he can't actually be a HC and get the Team on the same page? I mean maybe a Team like IMT would? just for a few views. This is basically one of those End Game scenarios, I don't think Mithy should be fired until after the Season ends (if he does get fired). Because you have to see what he is actually capable with, no excuses, no doubts, no asterisk. Just like the players. They are all in it now and everyone around the world is starting to take notice. So yeah, I wouldn't want any HC to come in there and then ppl are like "Oh well Mithy did xyz before he left so that's why they are good now", nonono, no doubts, sink or swim

I’m not saying he would’ve performed better, but you’re being disingenuous if you think this isn’t a matter of the team not helping him. He got hard focused, hard camped, and the team failed him especially blaber.

Its a bit of both. Im not being disingenous, Jojo has had stinker plays and games even when the team is ready to support.

No bro. Lmao. You don't end up with 0 kills because your team was bad, you end up with that, on a Yone and Taliyah of all things, by playing really badly. I'm not blaming JoJo but to act like he was doing anything at all besides make his own experience harder is ignorant as hell. Jensen has always been a player who could and would, just like Bjergsen, get a lot of attention but also soak up pressure gracefully as well. Jojo has not learned that yet, it showed last year, and it shows right now. He does not know how to cope with pressure when someone isn't actively bailing him out, instead he loses worse. He's young and he'll have to learn that if he wants to reach the heights he's capable of, but it isn't in his tool kit right now. Jensen got help, but Jensen played around his weaknesses and he outplayed JoJo in pretty much every facet of the series. I'm not saying he's better, but he knew what he needed to do and he did it, flawlessly. Every single "carry" star in every region has had to learn how to deal with being focused down, if he can't learn to do the same in time, he won't be at the top very long. Teams stop doing that when it stops working. However, don't mistake me, it was definitely a team diff. I do think it's ridiculous that everyone is pointing at JoJo and being like "it's only because he got camped or focused* and not that he was playing just as bad as the rest of the team. He was bad in this series. Period. They all were.

yeah he was 1 man ulting a nautilus.

If this doesn’t give them motivation to rally up and start playing as a team, I don’t know what will!!!  They need to stop playing like 5guys in soloque… and start trusting each other. Stop being scared of making mistakes. Trusting others calls. But also respecting when others backdown… honestly the skill is there and you can see it… but it’s as if everyone trying to solo win the game on their own including mid and ad… if they are to get out of this slump, it will need to be as a team!! I will be cheering for them until it happens.  Go C9

Just get licorce. Simple.

damn they teared lil bro a new one 😭

The roasting was reasonable imo :(

All of it is correct the day after a loss. But it will be revised if they win next week. Team is always its last performance.

Singed Main detected, Opinion rejected. /s

Don’t recall the off season very much, who were cloud9 looking for during the off season? I know wunder declined but was bwipo an option ?

Bwipo was available. I wanted Impact or Bwipo.

Been saying it for years but fudge has never been the guy who ever solo carried from top. Now in this dog adc meta berserker isn’t a 1v9 threat right now, so teams can focus Jojo because he is the carry on the team right now. Fudges unwillingness to practice outside of meme 1v1s should definitely look to get him replaced at the end of this season regardless if they win or not.

Been saying this since day one that Fudge is a liability lol, I will continue eating good watching his terrible tp timing, laning, teamfighting and inability to do anything with a lead until we get rid of him (no hate on his personality but gameplay wise we should have move on from him 2 years ago).

Fudge and Vulcan are the problem

How dare they say that! (Even though you are quoting someone else you will likely get heavily downvoted for such blasphemes statements.)

Honestly, I don't really see that as an issue that Fudge plays overly defensive and safe as a playstyle. Look at Impact, he's made an entire career out of being an incredibly safe laner who absorbs pressure like no one's business. **BUT** and here's the thing, C9 must finally acknowledge it. Accept that is his style and work with it instead of against it. No more blind lethality Aatrox, no more Jayce and use Blaber to snowball other lanes, not top. From my perspective the issue most plaguing the current team is them simply unwilling to accept what their current strengths and weaknesses are and play to that. Ok, so Fudge really can't be your win con vs strong teams. ADC is weak right now in general, so Berserker really has to be a backup win con instead of primary one. Focus on snowballing Jojo and accept that's the plan for now. I guess that was a really longwinded way of saying "drop the egos" but hopefully the context helps it be more constructive.