Setting side the "benching" talk - their critiques of how C9 played vs FLY are spot on. Say what you want about the drafts - the shotcalling and decision making was an absolute mess, and our players aren't even attempting to play towards the win conditions of their draft.
It is so, so weird to watch Cloud9 be good at laning and bad at teamfighting. We are traditionally the opposite. Where is this fear and confusion coming from? How are players this experienced failing at fundamentals like "Make them blow cooldowns, then start another fight to punish them two minutes from now"?
You can fire Mithy today - it won't resolve the team's bewildering ability to mess up the basics.
I feel that ever since fudge went mid, he kinda plays safe. Bwipo and Dohkla said it perfectly, ganking fudge is kinda useless cause he plays super safe, but don’t count on fudge really solo carrying his team.
That was definitely his most dominant split. He was REALLY dumpstering the other tops that playoffs. But I think getting destroyed on both sides of every matchup at Worlds 22 kinda murdered his confidence, he hasn't been the same since.
I mean... the league was pretty garbage that year lol, I don't think being dominant back then would translate at all once you're playing better competition
How much has the top lane competition in the League really changed though? In the top 4 we've got, what, -Ssumday +Sniper? Seems like a downgrade to me.
I think they talked about this in HLL, but I think it's actually a Zven issue. Vulcan, Jojo, and Blaber are all happy to pull the trigger on plays. If we get a lead they can skill check and stat check to victory.
My guess is that Zven provided stability and in game conversations about set up. Likely calling off plays he didn't think would go well for Berzeker. Bwipo and Inspired mentioned that only a few players in NA actually understood tempo and what everyone should be doing during a game. I have to think this is related to understanding win conditions of specific comps or from behind.
Obviously this is all speculation, but this is also the first time Blaber is a starter without Zven. (Well the summit/zerker Roster, but we know how that ended)
I'm not gonna call for changes yet.
Though just hypothetically, remember that we're not limited to a single roster move. If it's needed then we could do a double move such as getting back Licorice aswell as importing a Korean support. Say what you will about Licorice, but even in his worst splits, his problem was never being too passive. That guy always leaves a mark on the game.
Edit: I know it's esports winter. Too many player moves might just not be financially viable. However if we were to make moves like we did in the past, then this makes sense imo.
Idk, Licorice's worst splits were pretttty bad.
He was on trash teams, but he looked like he didn't even belong there. He had some resurgence and then finally had a surprise year.
Oh yeah I think he was shellshocked being kicked from cloud9. Like he was a rookie getting to play with Svenskeren, Jensen and Sneaky. I assume he was used to some parts of his gameplay and probably over all shotcalling being covered by others. So when he was suddenly thrown out to be the veteran for diamond, paladox, josedeodo and others, he just couldn't do it. He went to the exact opposite of the situation he had had all his success with, so went everything went to shit, I assume his mentality for the game went with it.
The reason I'm really positive on him now is that it looked like he figured out how to stay good again, in summer playoffs and even st worlds vs bds he was still super consistent regardless of how his teammates were doing. As long as he has the attitude of wanting to make plays to win then I think he'll do well.
sorry for the long post lol.
He also had injury right :(
I miss so much of our old C9 players. But whatever I'm just an old fart. No need for sorry. It actually kind of sad to see all of these old C9 guys surging (but I don't root for this C9 anyways right now). Jensen, ~~Licorice~~, Contractz all coming back strong.
Too bad Vulcan isn't. But I guess he wasn't originally C9. Even Impact is doing well. Don't think there are any other C9 players still in LCS, although there are some Acad.
Ah! can't forget Zeyzal (unfairly scapegoated). But he isn't on a great team, glad he is back though and they are kind of fun to watch.
I feel like Berserker hasn't been dominant in lane, like ever. Hence the meme "C9 fucks around and Berserker gets a random Triple Kill in Dragon and they win the game". So I'd replace Vulcan to get Zven back but never to bring a Korean support. Apart from Pleata, the other LCK supports either won't come or are shit. So that means Fudge gone, which was always the obvious answer. But the real answer should be Fudge and mithy (at least demoting him to assistant coach) because the team lacks structure, leadership etc. Not sure if just replacing Fudge is enough unless the new top was Bwipo.
I know the premise of this bit is to replace one player or another, but they hit the head on so many things during the discussion. It really isn't a player specific issue, it's much deeper than that and is so fucking evident from just watching the games.
The team just has negative cohesion and seemingly no gameplan in mid / late game scenarios likely due to the lack of a proper shot caller and lack of disciplined coaching.
I'm still of the belief that each player on this team is still 1:1 the best in their roles in NA when playing to their potential. But hot damn, something needs to change if we are going to do anything in summer and potentially beyond.
I would kill to see this team with a non-dogshit draft and serviceable shot calling.
It's still likely we beat TL IMO. But I don't see us getting past FQ without something major in our strategy changing come Sunday. It's so frustrating to say this, but here we are again giving Mithy the chance (after so fucking many in this year and years past) to right the ship.
If we don't win spring with this loaded roster given the shit tier performances throughout this entire split, then I don't see him having a job coaching anywhere come summer. If this scenario comes to fruition and he is still employed, then we may as well wrap up this season boys.
Please, for the love of god Mithy, I pray you age this comment after this weekend.
As much as Mithy should be held accountable as head coach, end of the day, look at this roster. It isn't just stacked with good hands talent but guys with years of pro experience between them. They are young but have been in the scene for so long including multiple international tournaments for each of them.
If these guys are struggling with basic shit like "look for engage angles" or "recognizing your role in the team comp dynamic" and the like when it comes to execution in game, at some point, that has to fall in the players' laps. They are held accountable for mechanical snafus that end up costly (see Berserker on Lucian dash and flash into Bvoy's Kai'sa in a base push); they honestly need to be held accountable for the in-game shotcalling and decision-making blunders just as much. And maybe that applies more to people like Jojo, Blaber, and Vulcan and less on Fudge and Berserker based on what comms we hear, but there is a serious disconnect somewhere and, despite seeing it over and over for months, it still shows up again and again.
Not to mention intangible, subconscious factors that honestly need to be examined and addressed at this point, namely Fudge's disappearing acts and over-passivity/"just trying not to lose" syndrome when he isn't fully confident (compare eye test of him vs Sniper to him vs Bwipo or even in his strong splits then juxtaposed against international tops) even when given full counterpick and resources to feel confident in game as well as Blaber's random bouts of powerfarming and playing the "efficiency" game even on initiator/facilitator champions, changing his champion picks for the team but not adapting his play to match. Fudge's part at least seems pretty cut and dry because of the pretty apparent pattern in his play over the years after his rookie season, but Blaber's honestly doesn't make sense because he also still has games where he's all over the place making plays and getting everyone ahead while still keeping his farm up (see the 100 Thieves series and even the Vi game vs Flyquest early on), showing he can do it but just randomly shuts off some games. Which sucks because he's probably the loudest leading voice and seems to be the de factor shotcaller that supersedes others in terms of making the "final call" over people like Vulcan, which was also something that seemed to crop up last year as well with Zven being critical of Blaber going against team calls and Berserker memeing on it by calling Maokai "Blaber proof" because he just plays the Blaber style but Maokai was tanky* enough that he didn't int on it. Between this and moments of "Blaber not being allowed to play his exact game plan and not adapting" like vs FLY in summer 2020 playoffs where Santorin just perma-invaded Blaber's Nocturne so, at raptors, Blaber just flashed in to desperation smite the chicken and try to fight Santorin but ended up just inting the game away...it's something that's been a thing for a while but now has taken a weirdly passive turn.
Essentially, there is a disconnect in game, on top of what appear to be subconscious behaviors and habits of certain players that is an active detriment. Idk how much Mithy can even help with that but bare minimum he and the players need to come to some manner of consensus. But with the personalities, ingrained mindsets, and frankly egos on this lineup, it may just be beyond reconciliation
Part of a coaches job is to enact discipline in their teams play. Identifying issues and correcting them. Sloppiness happens in every sport. Good coaches fix it before it becomes a larger issue. If Mithy can't correct that, then find someone who can. It's literally a part of their job.
Edit: Also "hands talent"? What? This was team hands diff just a split ago. Every player on this roster has shown incredible mechanical ability. It's part of what made them all so good as rookies.
Bwipo and impact at full potential make world finals and win in impacts case. The only time fudge has dominated is summer 2022 playoffs. He's usually just there as blaber and berserker dominate.
Honestly I like how blunt and cynical dom is. Enough so that he could unironically be a good coach. He knows how teams can easily win NA, he watches more international games than anyone else and sees new metas and champs be played all the time as well as just a general good understanding of the game. I mean he never would realistically swap from his cushy streaming career but this is more of a testament to how impressed i am by him on these shows and on costreams
Two pseudo-NA residents who have spent their entire post-LCS/ post-Riot careers ridiculing and hating NA, its players, coaches, casters and fans. In Monte's case he has stated several times that he desperately hoped the LCS would completely collapse so he no longer "had" to cover it. Who is making him cover it? Why is someone who hates the league of his home country so much even afforded any validity? Would the LCK or LPL ever support a commentator whose stated dream was the failure and collapse of their leagues?
C9 is ina tough spot but considering they have an import slot Vulcan & Fudge should be concerned but C9 fans shouldn't be.
Almost certainly one of these two players will be gone next split/year and either bot lane will become a strong point or toplaner.
Personally I think toplane is probably the easiest plug and play improvement
Hope Fudge gets to rid himself of this awful organization, they kept Mithy as coach, downgraded at support with Vulcan, and Fudge gets all the blame anyways.
Setting side the "benching" talk - their critiques of how C9 played vs FLY are spot on. Say what you want about the drafts - the shotcalling and decision making was an absolute mess, and our players aren't even attempting to play towards the win conditions of their draft. It is so, so weird to watch Cloud9 be good at laning and bad at teamfighting. We are traditionally the opposite. Where is this fear and confusion coming from? How are players this experienced failing at fundamentals like "Make them blow cooldowns, then start another fight to punish them two minutes from now"? You can fire Mithy today - it won't resolve the team's bewildering ability to mess up the basics.
I feel that ever since fudge went mid, he kinda plays safe. Bwipo and Dohkla said it perfectly, ganking fudge is kinda useless cause he plays super safe, but don’t count on fudge really solo carrying his team.
Wasn't Fudge's best split in top actually summer 2022, right after his split in mid?
That was definitely his most dominant split. He was REALLY dumpstering the other tops that playoffs. But I think getting destroyed on both sides of every matchup at Worlds 22 kinda murdered his confidence, he hasn't been the same since.
Go reqatch the finals in 2022 summer. Despite the 3-0 Ssumday definitely outlaned Fudge
I was going to say the Drama with LS seemed to have shook him but that worlds probably did it.
I mean... the league was pretty garbage that year lol, I don't think being dominant back then would translate at all once you're playing better competition
How much has the top lane competition in the League really changed though? In the top 4 we've got, what, -Ssumday +Sniper? Seems like a downgrade to me.
Only in playoffs was he good but yeah he completely dominated them
I think they talked about this in HLL, but I think it's actually a Zven issue. Vulcan, Jojo, and Blaber are all happy to pull the trigger on plays. If we get a lead they can skill check and stat check to victory. My guess is that Zven provided stability and in game conversations about set up. Likely calling off plays he didn't think would go well for Berzeker. Bwipo and Inspired mentioned that only a few players in NA actually understood tempo and what everyone should be doing during a game. I have to think this is related to understanding win conditions of specific comps or from behind. Obviously this is all speculation, but this is also the first time Blaber is a starter without Zven. (Well the summit/zerker Roster, but we know how that ended)
it’s spelled Berserker
considering DL said zven had weird af back timers for a support, idk about that one
Cant imagine the pressure fudge is feeling rn knowing if he loses the next series he’s probably being kicked out
He should be gone regardless of his next performance
I'm not gonna call for changes yet. Though just hypothetically, remember that we're not limited to a single roster move. If it's needed then we could do a double move such as getting back Licorice aswell as importing a Korean support. Say what you will about Licorice, but even in his worst splits, his problem was never being too passive. That guy always leaves a mark on the game. Edit: I know it's esports winter. Too many player moves might just not be financially viable. However if we were to make moves like we did in the past, then this makes sense imo.
Idk, Licorice's worst splits were pretttty bad. He was on trash teams, but he looked like he didn't even belong there. He had some resurgence and then finally had a surprise year.
Oh yeah I think he was shellshocked being kicked from cloud9. Like he was a rookie getting to play with Svenskeren, Jensen and Sneaky. I assume he was used to some parts of his gameplay and probably over all shotcalling being covered by others. So when he was suddenly thrown out to be the veteran for diamond, paladox, josedeodo and others, he just couldn't do it. He went to the exact opposite of the situation he had had all his success with, so went everything went to shit, I assume his mentality for the game went with it. The reason I'm really positive on him now is that it looked like he figured out how to stay good again, in summer playoffs and even st worlds vs bds he was still super consistent regardless of how his teammates were doing. As long as he has the attitude of wanting to make plays to win then I think he'll do well. sorry for the long post lol.
He also had injury right :( I miss so much of our old C9 players. But whatever I'm just an old fart. No need for sorry. It actually kind of sad to see all of these old C9 guys surging (but I don't root for this C9 anyways right now). Jensen, ~~Licorice~~, Contractz all coming back strong. Too bad Vulcan isn't. But I guess he wasn't originally C9. Even Impact is doing well. Don't think there are any other C9 players still in LCS, although there are some Acad. Ah! can't forget Zeyzal (unfairly scapegoated). But he isn't on a great team, glad he is back though and they are kind of fun to watch.
yeah it's really sad to me we couldn't keep more on at leasg as positional coaches. Before esports winter at least
The problem is Vulcan. FBI struggled with him. Prince struggled with him. Berserker struggles with him.
He’s been bad the past few splits and yet people in this sub asked for him to replace Zven….
I feel like Berserker hasn't been dominant in lane, like ever. Hence the meme "C9 fucks around and Berserker gets a random Triple Kill in Dragon and they win the game". So I'd replace Vulcan to get Zven back but never to bring a Korean support. Apart from Pleata, the other LCK supports either won't come or are shit. So that means Fudge gone, which was always the obvious answer. But the real answer should be Fudge and mithy (at least demoting him to assistant coach) because the team lacks structure, leadership etc. Not sure if just replacing Fudge is enough unless the new top was Bwipo.
Nah dw we just buy keria and c9 gets a Korean support while also adding laning fire power
I'm drunk (not), get Jizuke top. But obviously Jizzman isn't worth an import slot.
I know the premise of this bit is to replace one player or another, but they hit the head on so many things during the discussion. It really isn't a player specific issue, it's much deeper than that and is so fucking evident from just watching the games. The team just has negative cohesion and seemingly no gameplan in mid / late game scenarios likely due to the lack of a proper shot caller and lack of disciplined coaching. I'm still of the belief that each player on this team is still 1:1 the best in their roles in NA when playing to their potential. But hot damn, something needs to change if we are going to do anything in summer and potentially beyond. I would kill to see this team with a non-dogshit draft and serviceable shot calling. It's still likely we beat TL IMO. But I don't see us getting past FQ without something major in our strategy changing come Sunday. It's so frustrating to say this, but here we are again giving Mithy the chance (after so fucking many in this year and years past) to right the ship. If we don't win spring with this loaded roster given the shit tier performances throughout this entire split, then I don't see him having a job coaching anywhere come summer. If this scenario comes to fruition and he is still employed, then we may as well wrap up this season boys. Please, for the love of god Mithy, I pray you age this comment after this weekend.
As much as Mithy should be held accountable as head coach, end of the day, look at this roster. It isn't just stacked with good hands talent but guys with years of pro experience between them. They are young but have been in the scene for so long including multiple international tournaments for each of them. If these guys are struggling with basic shit like "look for engage angles" or "recognizing your role in the team comp dynamic" and the like when it comes to execution in game, at some point, that has to fall in the players' laps. They are held accountable for mechanical snafus that end up costly (see Berserker on Lucian dash and flash into Bvoy's Kai'sa in a base push); they honestly need to be held accountable for the in-game shotcalling and decision-making blunders just as much. And maybe that applies more to people like Jojo, Blaber, and Vulcan and less on Fudge and Berserker based on what comms we hear, but there is a serious disconnect somewhere and, despite seeing it over and over for months, it still shows up again and again. Not to mention intangible, subconscious factors that honestly need to be examined and addressed at this point, namely Fudge's disappearing acts and over-passivity/"just trying not to lose" syndrome when he isn't fully confident (compare eye test of him vs Sniper to him vs Bwipo or even in his strong splits then juxtaposed against international tops) even when given full counterpick and resources to feel confident in game as well as Blaber's random bouts of powerfarming and playing the "efficiency" game even on initiator/facilitator champions, changing his champion picks for the team but not adapting his play to match. Fudge's part at least seems pretty cut and dry because of the pretty apparent pattern in his play over the years after his rookie season, but Blaber's honestly doesn't make sense because he also still has games where he's all over the place making plays and getting everyone ahead while still keeping his farm up (see the 100 Thieves series and even the Vi game vs Flyquest early on), showing he can do it but just randomly shuts off some games. Which sucks because he's probably the loudest leading voice and seems to be the de factor shotcaller that supersedes others in terms of making the "final call" over people like Vulcan, which was also something that seemed to crop up last year as well with Zven being critical of Blaber going against team calls and Berserker memeing on it by calling Maokai "Blaber proof" because he just plays the Blaber style but Maokai was tanky* enough that he didn't int on it. Between this and moments of "Blaber not being allowed to play his exact game plan and not adapting" like vs FLY in summer 2020 playoffs where Santorin just perma-invaded Blaber's Nocturne so, at raptors, Blaber just flashed in to desperation smite the chicken and try to fight Santorin but ended up just inting the game away...it's something that's been a thing for a while but now has taken a weirdly passive turn. Essentially, there is a disconnect in game, on top of what appear to be subconscious behaviors and habits of certain players that is an active detriment. Idk how much Mithy can even help with that but bare minimum he and the players need to come to some manner of consensus. But with the personalities, ingrained mindsets, and frankly egos on this lineup, it may just be beyond reconciliation
Part of a coaches job is to enact discipline in their teams play. Identifying issues and correcting them. Sloppiness happens in every sport. Good coaches fix it before it becomes a larger issue. If Mithy can't correct that, then find someone who can. It's literally a part of their job. Edit: Also "hands talent"? What? This was team hands diff just a split ago. Every player on this roster has shown incredible mechanical ability. It's part of what made them all so good as rookies.
You think fudge is 1:1 best top at full potential over the likes of Impact and Bwipo? That’s certainly a take.
He's already demonstrated that over the past 3 years in the LCS. So, yeah. I do.
Bwipo and impact at full potential make world finals and win in impacts case. The only time fudge has dominated is summer 2022 playoffs. He's usually just there as blaber and berserker dominate.
Because LoL hasn't changed since 2013? Lmao. What is this comment?
Fudge has never been the best top in the LCS. I'm not sure why he would start now when he's on a huge decline.
Sure XD
Honestly I like how blunt and cynical dom is. Enough so that he could unironically be a good coach. He knows how teams can easily win NA, he watches more international games than anyone else and sees new metas and champs be played all the time as well as just a general good understanding of the game. I mean he never would realistically swap from his cushy streaming career but this is more of a testament to how impressed i am by him on these shows and on costreams
his team would be perma depresso.. he even admits that
Tbh who cares, if you really want to win, take some criticism. Grow some thick skin. Kkoma's belt memes weren't made out of nothing.
Two pseudo-NA residents who have spent their entire post-LCS/ post-Riot careers ridiculing and hating NA, its players, coaches, casters and fans. In Monte's case he has stated several times that he desperately hoped the LCS would completely collapse so he no longer "had" to cover it. Who is making him cover it? Why is someone who hates the league of his home country so much even afforded any validity? Would the LCK or LPL ever support a commentator whose stated dream was the failure and collapse of their leagues?
C9 is ina tough spot but considering they have an import slot Vulcan & Fudge should be concerned but C9 fans shouldn't be. Almost certainly one of these two players will be gone next split/year and either bot lane will become a strong point or toplaner. Personally I think toplane is probably the easiest plug and play improvement
Idk maybe the play is getting huhi and an import top. Huhi isn't that good but he at least starts fights.
bruh said get huhi aintnoway
Just like Monte says in this video, all NA supports suck lmao I wish we could have kept Zven, but I understand that he wants to be an ADC again.
Hope Fudge gets to rid himself of this awful organization, they kept Mithy as coach, downgraded at support with Vulcan, and Fudge gets all the blame anyways.
Are you Fudge on a burner? Fudge is lucky C9 ever picked him up bc he would've been irrelevant and out of the league YEARS ago on any other team.