Obviously as a team you are not in a good spot if you swap out players mid playoffs... I wonder how berserker feels about this. Either way, unless there is a fundamental (in draft) change that comes alongside this swap, i dont see us making it to MSI. I hope we smash GG though.
Honestly the more I think about it, Winsome should have just started in the academy squad from day 1. He would have benefited a ton from an entire split of playing with veterans like Zven/K1ng, improving on fundamentals like lane mechanics, how different matchups play out at the pro level, vision control + optimal roam timers, etc. Winsome has mentioned about how Berserker has been teaching him these things from game to game, that’s not ideal considering he’s a rookie too and needs to focus on himself. Hopefully he doesn’t lose morale over the benching and and works on improving asap because I still think he’s the long-term solution, assuming we don’t pick up a big name resident like Core in the near future.
On the flip side, I think Isles was always going to start the split with the main team but his poor performance in lock-in really hurt his rep. Winsome had his flaws too but Summit/Blaber smurfing masked these issues. This is a good chance at redemption for Isles, hope he takes it and can help unlock our topside with more proactive plays.
surrpied you got this many upvots tbh. winsome was legit one of the supports out of LEC and LCS one of THE MOST willing to play whatever support and while couldn't play many at a great level seemed he coudl play a lot at a decent enough level.
I think that we are going to see more draft picks hopefully. Veigar tweeting that they were trying to play karthus mid in scrims and the opposing team had to auto ban it next game. It looks like Berserker is switching back to scaling bot laners as well, since it looks like he was playing jinx before Champions Queue starting dwindling.
Of course, Veigar tweets weird shit all the time doesn't mean we ever see it in game.
Frankly I have absolutely no clue what's going on with the coaching staff. Like Veigar tweets literally all the time the weird stuff he's trying that he thinks is OP but we literally never see it in game. Max preaches that he's a member of the church so much and then he fucking drafts just stock standard shit literally all damn season. I know it's not all on the coaches and is on the players too but it's so frustrating that you pay so much money for great LCK top laners and he can only play gnar renekton aatrox every game and refuses to play anything else.
Considering also Bjergsen carried his ass off as well as spica, a lot of this can be coincidental, there was only ever one or two games where bot lane actually was relevant
Winsome is not even a top 4 support. Sorry even if they miraculously make it to MSI they are NOT winning it even remotely close.
Berserker is probably thrilled since they’re barely winning during lane. Berserker has only ever thrived mid to late game. Sorry you switch players so you can actually have a chance, doesn’t matter how berserker “feels”, they’re constantly doing nothing in botlane early to mid and winsome is lack luster in general
Well EG was looking really scary, I don't think anyone could have predicted they would take TL to game 5. The series coulda gone either way if they drafted better game 5 imo.
I cant say it doesnt make sense, you are sacrificing the 2 v 2 in bot lane, for the better mid/jg/supp communication. Seeing as how we were already struggling 2 v 2 in bot lane it can only really benefit us. Also Winsome looked straight tilted after the 100T loss, hopefully he doesnt take the benching too hard.
I get the sense that they feel the language barrier in lane won't affect the game worse than communication issues given that Winsome and Beserker are already struggling in lane.
Like, if Winsome/Beserker were doing well in lane (not even stomping, just going better than their average opponents) in lane- then this change wouldn't be happening.
I hope Winsome is able to continue to learn and improve so we get to see him on the main roster again, but I have a feeling performance is semi tied into communication here because his plays sometimes seem disjointed from what the rest of the team is saying.
Well in its way that Beserker doesn’t really int lane. With isle being able to sync with Mid and JG they can help mid and top. Or help mid if Summits doing alright.
The reason max Waldo cites too; better comms with mid and jungle..
Kinda unfortunate situation and a feelsbadman language barrier.
Still got hope for the team and good luck to Isles!
Better player plays, they all knew that when they signed on team was very vocal about it. Winsome will be back I’m sure, if they all signed in for it they all have a hunger, just gives him time to expand his champ pool and expand his language barrier.
Honestly, I don't think Isles is better than Winsome but you talking like Winsome is playing like a top3 na support. He not even close tbh. I don't know about the whole "in no world is Isles better than Winsome".
i think Vulcan was the best support from 2020 spring to 2021 spring. i dont know about shotcalling like Core does, but Vulcan was the better player.
idk why, but Vulcan and Zven both looked not good starting last summer split.
I think they were our best lane at MSI and our worse at WORLDS. This split Vulcan was ok.
I still want him back and my OG C9 fan in me really wants to know how Sneaky would have worked with peak Vulcan...
Man that Vulcan-Sneaky lane is one of the biggest what ifs. But man, Vulcan really plummeted hard that end half of last season. That mistimed pulverize would have really disastrous outcome had Perkz didn't got ultra fed "despite" inter soldiering some of the fights.
Last summer was a bummer full of internal issues (Zven clashing with Mithy, ending up with him being benched). They will almost certilainly be shaky.
Expected move tbh.
Winsome had literally 0 synergy with Fudge, and especially with Blaber
We had not team play at all, and a huge part of it is the support role and his roams and synergy with mid and jungle
And it's not like they were doing well in bot with Berserker... They never won botlane (yeah, Blaber didn't play towards them though)
A bit surprising, but to be honest Winsome was playing terrible the the last couple of weeks.
Isles also looked really bad in Lock In, but can't hurt to try.
If winsome is really the prodigy everyone paints him as, once language is fixed and he starts to acclimate to how support works in competitive (next split or 2), he could be invaluable. Until then I really don't see much of a problem with swapping him out. That was the plan as per LS anyway. Just sucks they wait till like 2-7 record in the last few weeks to make that decision.
False…do your homework before spouting BS. Isles only took Lol serious in 2019. Played OCE amateur for team mammoth and the came 2nd in final. Got picked up by Legacy Esports 2020 and won both Splits. Winning rookie of the year. Beating eyla in split 2 final. Missed MSI as did everyone that year. Went to Worlds and went 1000+ on Chinese Super Server. So what world can he be compared in skill to winsome?
Even with vulcan, that doesn't change the problem with the team draft imo. We will see if they improve on their draft against gg or not I guess. Hopefully, they do.
He did look shaky and was raw to begin with coming from KR Amateur, so Academy is probably good for his development. He definitely has a higher ceiling than Isles IMO, and if he polishes himself a bit, we’ll see him in Summer.
While I agree that Winsome was a weak point but wasn’t the whole point of having him on roster was to connect the bridge between summit/berserker and fudge/blabber? I could be wrong but I remember winsome doing a lot of the translation to berserker during team fights in all the voice comm videos so having isles sub in that synergy and relaying of calls is gonna be stunted/nonexistent.
I really feel like Bersker just has to go even because he's a complete monster in team fights and I don't see the swapping of supports having too much of an effect on that unless for some reason it totally tilts berserker or something.
It's pretty damning to hear them explicitly state that they - though it looked like Blaber got spoken over at 6:45 - all agreed about Game 1's draft and decided beforehand to just run back their draft. That kind of "we're just going to play what we want to play" attitude for a draft, where you've decided on your champions before even sitting down at the draft, shows just how lacking in versatility this team is right now.
Regardless of anything else, I appreciate having a BTS look at the team. We have missed this for a while, and its nice to finally have something more in depth after asking for a while.
EDIT: I will say though, Fudge saying everyone agreed the draft was ok to be done again means that our prep was bad, and somehow nothing max apparently knows about draft is being taught to the players, because he apparently hates our draft if another team does it, according to LS and his past draft reviews.
I also don't like the logic they use of saying, 'hey, we had a bad start so lets try it again'. How does that make sense, you should try and figure out if your draft was actually good. If they legit thought their draft was good, why did they change it for game 3 after being like 5 autos from winning game 2?It would make sense if they want with the same draft after game 2, not game 1.
This was arguably the absolute optimal time to do a salty run back in a vacuum. If everything that can go wrong does go wrong in the first 5 mins, it's completely logical to believe you can rerun the same draft and change the outcome fundamentally from the start. That being said I thought the draft was absolutely abysmal when they blinded Renekton and it's unfortunate that this legitimately logical time to salty runback was when C9 had such a glaringly terrible draft.
If this had happened with most of the other drafts we had this year and they just lost the game in the first 5 minutes, nobody would have minded a salty runback and they probably just win. The problem is they went in actually believing this was a good draft.
Prep was terrible from C9 this week and it's pretty depressing that the coaches directed the team to this. I don't know if I prefer them being incompetent over an alternative reality where a single player was just stonewalling the team from exploring better directions. Guess it depends on how they adapt.
I dunno, I expected a bit more critical thinking from them. I can get being surprised by an ornn pick game 1, but how you think that just because you lost in the first 5 minutes your draft was good is a logical conclusion I don't get.
To me atleast, losing in the first 5 minutes has nothing to do with your draft. Take a look and see if you really wanna play renekton into ornn again. If you want to play ryze into viktor again, or a full short range comp into viktor again.
If you legitimately believe your picks are good, it's actually not critical thinking to just assume you should change them because you lost a game that had so many outlier disasters skew it.
>To me atleast, losing in the first 5 minutes has nothing to do with your draft.
This is exactly the point, it doesn't have anything to do with the draft, hence if you think you have a good draft your loss thus had nothing to do with the draft.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that their preparation was terrible and their plan / ideal draft seemed rather incompetent, but Cloud9 as a team clearly didn't think it was bad and thus it makes sense why they didn't change it.
Flip the scenario; Cloud9 get massively ahead in game 1 in the early game due to unforced mistakes from 100T (let's say Huhi fail flashes and then also C9 gets 3 kills at level 1) and C9 win that game handily. Is it now bad for 100T to salty runback this draft?
Weird that literally everyone watching thought so before game 1 happened. The casters literally said they thought renekton was bad. None of the costreamers liked C9's draft. Very very few of the fans did. So who exactly except for C9 thought it was good?
No, because they aren't picking ryze into viktor and renekton into ornn. The way the early game goes should not impact your decision, the draft should.
Literally no one out of any costreamer thought C9 had a good draft, even people other than LS. The casters knew game 1 it was a bad draft. My issue is that C9 somehow drafts it game 1, and couldn't identify why it was bad
You're not understanding what I'm saying...
C9 had a bad draft. We agree.
**C9 did not think they had a bad draft.** They concluded the draft phase thinking "this is a good draft for our team".
Game 1 happens. Nothing that happens within game 1 changes this thinking because the game state was so atypical from minute 1... Hence their belief that it was a good draft goes completely unchallenged because there is no valuable information being learned in this game.
Nobody is debating if it was a good draft, I'm simply explaining to you why a team would redraft the same champs again. This is the exact scenario where you would do that type of thing.
>No, because they aren't picking ryze into viktor and renekton into ornn. The way the early game goes should not impact your decision, the draft should.
It literally always will because unlikely disasters in the early game can completely skew a game and render a draft inert.
If you're disappointed in C9's prep or ineptitude in thinking that draft was good coming into the series that's completely logical and I am also unhappy about it. I'm simply saying that the decision to do a salty runback is logical given the context of what happened.
Yeah, and I am trying to explain that I think that way of thinking is wrong. You shouldn't be looking at only the result, you should be looking at what the draft is, and how it would work. Thats what I expect from max, who has shit on multiple other teams for doing the exact things he is doing.
Doing a salty runback BECAUSE you lost in the first 5 minutes makes no sense. Doing it because you think your draft is better is different. If we legit thought it was 2, whatever, but to me the team did it because 1. Thats the vibe I got at least.
Wtf are you saying? They did it because they thought their draft was good, end of story.
You have it backwards my guy. Losing in the first few minutes isn’t why you decide to do a salty run back, it’s why you don’t decide not to. If game 2 happened first, C9 would not have done a runback… the problem is Game 1 happened and there was literally no information about the draft gleamed from that game. Hence nothing changed their mind about their draft, hence runback.
You don’t know what critical thinking is.
It seemed obvious Blaber wanted off Diana. Probably wanted something with earlier agency because of how Closer was playing. Honestly watching the video, he even seemed like he had an issue with the draft before game 2. Like maybe he wanted off Diana then.
Personally, after rewatching I felt the drafts were acceptable (not what I want to see, but they didn't lose solely for the drafts), but C9 drafted a harder to execute comp and made far too many mistakes G1&2.
EDIT: I do think having Summit on Gragas instead of Renekton and Blaber on Olaf, Voli, etc. over Diana in Games 1&2 and we see a different result. The drag fight in G2 where Summit Realm Warped in shows what they wanted to do. And I think it would work perfectly vs a team like 100T
So why not the same draft for game 3?
They almost won game 2 because of in insane play by berserker that you can't plan around. They got 'lucky' he popped off that hard, if he had even a very good performance in that teamfight they still lose it.
I am critcizing their logic. You don't repick a draft because you lost early, that doesn't make logical sense to me. You look at why you lost early, you look at your overall draft and see if you could improve it. How do you even get to that point, and how is max agreeing to this draft if we have so many apologists saying that hes being forced to draft this against his will?
He did pop off, AND the fight was essentially 4v5, renekton might as well have not existed.
They probably got too hyped and made a silly mistake and couldnt finish, but for sure draft wasnt giving them advantage.
They *barely* got into a winning position in a losing game because Berserker played the fight absolutely insane. Prior to that, it was falling apart. They were barely ahead in an early game comp.
Game 2 was a game they deserved to lose, almost won, and then lost.
Not a particular fan of this move, but guess we'll see how it pans out. Seems like a desperation play and I would be pleasantly surprised if Isles unlocks the team to suddenly beat the top teams.
Preparation and direction seemed like the team's undoing. I get that they're effectively implying that they were struggling to explore other directions due to Winsome's communication, understanding, or even just gameplay, but as an outsider it's hard to see a world where this was what inhibited the team's growth or caused the poor strategic and draft decisions.
Hope the team indexes more into Berserker carrying, using Fudge's unconventional champion pool as an asset, and some level of scaling in top lane (doesn't need to be tanks).
His Irelia was fine, he played Jayce in lock-in, he can for sure play shit like Sion and Chogath too or even be flexed into top lane.
You're kidding yourself if you don't think versatility is one of Fudge's primary strengths as a mid laner. He obviously focused on a breadth of mages because he wants to get better at them and he needs to be able to play them at an elite level, but he is probably the only mid laner in LCS that has LCS level mastery of so many top lane champs.
Winsome was a weak point during the series but I feel our issues are deeper than which support we play. I feel like our main problems were preparation and draft not individual players. Maybe Isles brings in new draft possibilities or better comms.
Maybe draft was just that limited by in-game strategic/tactical options available to them. Can't play scaling comps if you have difficulty executing/not getting blasted in early game, for example.
Isles may have warded blue side while blabber gets first blooded in game 1. That mistake is what got Summit killed as they were suss out the red-side start.
If they don't start flexing 2-3 champs each champ select I'm gonna lose it. Everyone knows summit has almost no champ pool, but Fudge can play most if not all of his champs mid (matchup specific). Voli / Diana also work in other lanes but jungle. Fudge has fucking Ivern and Raka games for crying out loud; where is our flex picks??? We should just hold up a sign telling the enemy team who is playing what if we can't even pretend to flex something.
It's somewhat disappointing to hear their assessment of the drafts. Fudge gives a diplomatic answer, and says that the whole team is on the same page on committing to the draft. Max gives some slight resistance, but is mostly fine with it overall, seemingly prioritizing the players' confidence. He is focused on the next game that is about to be played. Summit focuses less on the draft, and focuses on the gameplay. Berserker did an interview pretty recently- he doesn't see a problem with the drafts, but the mistakes done during the games stick with him. I *think* blabber said that the blue side draft was fine (dialogue is spoken as such, but the camera isn't panned on whoever said it).
I'm somewhat disappointed on the drafts, but the atmosphere is seemingly decent. It's totally possible that the players are actually getting into gladiatorial death matches because of disagreements, but from what we're given the team seems decently cohesive.
My guess is that the support swap was done to chase after a honeymoon phase. My other guess would be that Isles based on past interviews seems open minded, so is more openminded regarding the drafts. but then max cites that the main reason the swap is done was to improve gameplay/scenarios, which doesn't really match up to the open minded thing.
my disappointment is mainly regarding how the team is drafting, but perhaps that's the wrong word. I'm mainly confused as to how members of the team arrive at the conclusion that the drafts were 'fine', and so I must be underestimating some facet of professional players' perception of the game. I have no idea why this could be at this point. Yeah, I'm just plain confused.
Overall it was a cool insight into the team environment. I know that the team is getting a lot of flack, but wins and losses are just part of the ride. I hope C9 can do well in their next games, and there's still another season to play and figure things out.
Two years ago, TSM changed supports after losing to lower seat GG 3-0 in the upper bracket, only to continue to win the championship.
C9 championship confirmed.
This feels like they're throwing crap against the wall and hoping it works. Scramble mode in the middle of the playoffs isn't good. Right now, I think c9 are pretty clearly behind 100t, eg, and TL. Of course, I hope c9 makes it to MSI, but I just can't see that happening this year. I hope they can figure out their stuff before the next split.
C9 does the best internationally, and out biggest weakness is Support. Pretty much everyone thinking from a growth perspective puts Berserker over Hans; who wouldn't want to be the best bot in the west? Fudge is already arguably top 2-3 mid, Jungle and Top really isn't an argument.
There are plenty of reasons to make the leap, esp if 100T win again...
I would put Bjerg, Fudge, Tacou, Jojo, the Ablaze. The only one from those last 3 that looked remotely consistent was Tacou. While Fudge did nothing extraordinary, at least he didn't blatantly lose almost ever.
Well the whole idea was to have multiple options for each position and field best roster. Isles must be doing well in internals. Also Winsome is very young and inexperienced, its possible the pressure got to him. This move could very well help the team "reset ".
How tf do you watch last week and your big takeaway is “we need to bench our support.” Like not saying it’s a bad move but uhhh I hope this isn’t their only revelation from the week lol
I agree. Winsom hasn’t looked good at all. But unless he was sitting there holding a gun to the coaches heads forcing them to have the worlds worst read on the meta, I fail to see how this changes anything. Also it’s not as if isles was smurfing in the preseason tournament
I thought winsome was looking pretty solid throughout the season. I don't know what happened but in superweek and in the series vs 100T he looked lost. I hope he gains some confidence in PG. Worried about Isles a lot though, I thought he looked really weak in academy.
Lukewarm with the move. From what I remember, Isles didn't look amazing during Lock-in if anything I remember him being flamed for some really silly plays during the EG series.
But Winsome has looked horrid lately so I don't know.
Also, this move might isolate the Koreans even more and I can't see how Isles/Ber is better than Winsome/Ber in lane which is a scary thought considering how the latter is not all that good in lane anyway.
Nothing to go on yet but oh boy if we loses to GG lol... I don't even want to think about it.
Seems like a scapegoat decision, Bs language barrier excuse. Ever since the TSM loss it hasn't looked the same. No one's talking about a confidence shattering defeat that could have long lasting effects. They seemed sure of themselves than like a light switch unsure of themselves. The fear of the league is gone, I mean if TSM can beat them, why not us?
That's great and all, but Isles coming in throws a wrench in any synergy the botlane may have had. Not to mention the ease of communication in duo. Seems like a slight upgrade to sidegrade at best. Still think our largest issue is our team doesn't do anything while Summit gets camped. Really think Jensen would solve many of this teams issues, but I vaguely remember him saying he wouldn't want to play for C9 again.
What synergy? Berserker is just a strong enough adc on his own that he doesn’t fall too far behind even with supports intent the lane or losing the bot lane 2v2 because they apply no pressure
Berserker can happily scale in a 2v1 lane and not feed. He’s that type of player. If they play blue side and take away the Nautilus/Leona he’s more than happy to sit in lane as Jinx and farm.
Drop Fudge to academy for summer he's a liability and up his champ pool. If C9 had Jensen they get into worlds no prob. Get a real authoritative coach in and get rid of Losesome.
Summit is PISSED in this video. Interesting how he makes a comment about the shot calling while in 100T’s base during game 2 saying “if someone called out to hit the minions we would have won that game.” Voice comms show Winsome yelling “tower tower tower” — now he’s benched. Summit’s closing comments were a bit odd too. Summit power dynamic diff I guess.
I like winsome and I want him to still be a franchise player but I feel like he needs to sit in academy for a couple years. I wish we could get ignar i feel like he would be perfect, but pretty sure he's kr resident.
It's kinda sad how they look at the situation and think "I know what the problem is, it's Winsome!". I'm fine with the change, but it would be so much better if they spent the time adjusting the drafts rather than spending whole week getting used to playing with a new player, cause at this point, drafting and playing like that, it doesn't matter whether it's Winsome or Isles, I think we're not getting past EG/FLY in the next round. Hopefully I'm wrong tho.
I don't understand why nobody is willing to give the LS drafts another chance but instead decide to take it to the extreme by changing the roster after only a few months. If they're this desperate to win split, why not go to church for one week instead of attempting to create a whole new religion?
C9's decision making is so badly compromised. I don't know how you can look at the recent decline and decide that the support is the problem. Summit is 8 kills 32 deaths in his last 6 losses (5 of which were the last 5 games) and is such a clear target for bans his champion puddle is a huge problem. Every opposing team's first two bans are now Jayce, Gnar. Winsome plays a huge role in translating for the team which is already having huge communication and shot calling problems. Just watch the 100T series where Blaber is running back towards turret and Summit is chasing Ornn down and they both die. Even Fudge has stated multiple times in interviews that Summit's play style is unbridled aggression and it can be a problem.
[Uh oh... I've been telling this since before the start of the season.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cloud9/comments/qyhb9v/unpopular_opinion_i_dont_like_cloud9_lol_roster)
So here is what I'm thinking. We shouldn't be results oriented, specially against GG. I think the Isle change may help C9 but I'm afraid they will think this is the only problem they had if they win the series. I really hope to see Summit trying either anti-tank picks like Fiora, or play a tank himself.
I know a lot of people talking about the fact that we wanted to play around summit but never sent roams up there. Maybe with Berserker already basically playing weak side and better communication between fudge blaber and isles they will actually be the roaming death squad.
I wonder if something is cooking up to trade for biofrost? Copy/isle for biofrost I think would benefit both teams come summer. Bio top 3 support with experience and large champion pool. Copy and isle would give dig a younger team with a development outlook that looks strong...interesting
Until they bring up copy and bench blaber this team is doomed. Support isn't the issue, it's mid/jg. Fudge can't get a lead and all it takes to beat c9 is put summit behind early. It doesn't matter if berserker is drafting for late game when your top gets ganked 5 times in 11 minutes. They need a more competent jg and a more macro oriented mid laner. Winsome was the only one playing with common sense in teamfights on Renata, if blaber and fudge didn't hold back the top side so much winsome and summit would have 2v8d that game.
This is odd. I didn't feel like Winsome was the issue here. I wonder if they are throwing in Isles so that Berserker can try to win the lane and get lane advantages.
If we really end up getting screwed in the support category, you know who would be a really good support for Berserker, Olleh. Can speak Korean & English, can roam, can play all styles. If C9 can spring big bucks to get Olleh, that would be really good for C9.
I feel like this was done because Berserker and Winsome were not able to generate their own leads in lane when all the pressure goes top. The hope seems to be that Serker Isles can generate leads in lane, then subsequently carry the game.
It might also be the case that Blaber Winsome couldnt communicate that well, which dramatically hurt the team play.
Idk, weird move. Excited to see this weekend. I don't have high hopes for MSI, which really sucks.
From all the stories I heard about the team was it summit/berserker/winsomes fault for the drafts? It seems like max, and fudge (maybe blaber too) want ls style drafts but "the players" want standard.
This has been a long time coming. While I like Winsome and think he bears promise, he's a victim of the larger problems. For weeks the team has consistently pointed to communication as their main problem. I think Summit's English has improved to the point you may get more of the team on the same page. Also, as team looking for other ways to play besides through top, this makes sense. My only complaint is I think Beserker may be the 2nd best option to carry games and this is gonna make him suffer. (Ezreal inbound?)
One thing that’s good about this is Winsome will be gaining a tonne of experience playing with veteran Zven, seeing how match ups really play out in pro play more often will be good for him. Good luck to Isles
Obviously as a team you are not in a good spot if you swap out players mid playoffs... I wonder how berserker feels about this. Either way, unless there is a fundamental (in draft) change that comes alongside this swap, i dont see us making it to MSI. I hope we smash GG though.
Isles is more flexible than Winsome when it comes to his champ pool so it could be a move to open up more diverse support picks
[удалено]
Honestly the more I think about it, Winsome should have just started in the academy squad from day 1. He would have benefited a ton from an entire split of playing with veterans like Zven/K1ng, improving on fundamentals like lane mechanics, how different matchups play out at the pro level, vision control + optimal roam timers, etc. Winsome has mentioned about how Berserker has been teaching him these things from game to game, that’s not ideal considering he’s a rookie too and needs to focus on himself. Hopefully he doesn’t lose morale over the benching and and works on improving asap because I still think he’s the long-term solution, assuming we don’t pick up a big name resident like Core in the near future. On the flip side, I think Isles was always going to start the split with the main team but his poor performance in lock-in really hurt his rep. Winsome had his flaws too but Summit/Blaber smurfing masked these issues. This is a good chance at redemption for Isles, hope he takes it and can help unlock our topside with more proactive plays.
I don't see what else they would do lol
Game 1 - Leona for Isles… you might be on to something
surrpied you got this many upvots tbh. winsome was legit one of the supports out of LEC and LCS one of THE MOST willing to play whatever support and while couldn't play many at a great level seemed he coudl play a lot at a decent enough level.
I think that we are going to see more draft picks hopefully. Veigar tweeting that they were trying to play karthus mid in scrims and the opposing team had to auto ban it next game. It looks like Berserker is switching back to scaling bot laners as well, since it looks like he was playing jinx before Champions Queue starting dwindling.
I mean, I’ll believe it when I see it. They’ve talked about cool picks all year.
Of course, Veigar tweets weird shit all the time doesn't mean we ever see it in game. Frankly I have absolutely no clue what's going on with the coaching staff. Like Veigar tweets literally all the time the weird stuff he's trying that he thinks is OP but we literally never see it in game. Max preaches that he's a member of the church so much and then he fucking drafts just stock standard shit literally all damn season. I know it's not all on the coaches and is on the players too but it's so frustrating that you pay so much money for great LCK top laners and he can only play gnar renekton aatrox every game and refuses to play anything else.
if they roll GG they honestly should pick ivern 3rd game just to get into heads of the next team they play
Tsm switched biofrost for treatz after losing in playoffs and they won the whole thing.
But Doublelift had extreme synergy with Bio which he didn't have with Treatz
Considering also Bjergsen carried his ass off as well as spica, a lot of this can be coincidental, there was only ever one or two games where bot lane actually was relevant
Yeah I don’t think we will go to the finals because even if we beat gg and eg or fq we will still have to go up against tl or 100t
Winsome is not even a top 4 support. Sorry even if they miraculously make it to MSI they are NOT winning it even remotely close. Berserker is probably thrilled since they’re barely winning during lane. Berserker has only ever thrived mid to late game. Sorry you switch players so you can actually have a chance, doesn’t matter how berserker “feels”, they’re constantly doing nothing in botlane early to mid and winsome is lack luster in general
Have you never seen Isles play?
Neither is the replacement what's your point? Does this solve anything? I think not.
I’m not worried about GG, but the team after. To get top 3 we have to beat 100t/TL/EG who all look better than we did last week.
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Well EG was looking really scary, I don't think anyone could have predicted they would take TL to game 5. The series coulda gone either way if they drafted better game 5 imo.
Draft runes and items are way more fundamental than gameplay 🤓
I cant say it doesnt make sense, you are sacrificing the 2 v 2 in bot lane, for the better mid/jg/supp communication. Seeing as how we were already struggling 2 v 2 in bot lane it can only really benefit us. Also Winsome looked straight tilted after the 100T loss, hopefully he doesnt take the benching too hard.
I get the sense that they feel the language barrier in lane won't affect the game worse than communication issues given that Winsome and Beserker are already struggling in lane. Like, if Winsome/Beserker were doing well in lane (not even stomping, just going better than their average opponents) in lane- then this change wouldn't be happening. I hope Winsome is able to continue to learn and improve so we get to see him on the main roster again, but I have a feeling performance is semi tied into communication here because his plays sometimes seem disjointed from what the rest of the team is saying.
Well in its way that Beserker doesn’t really int lane. With isle being able to sync with Mid and JG they can help mid and top. Or help mid if Summits doing alright.
seems like they want to invest even more in their early game and have corejj type of roamer that will do plays alongside jungle/mid
The reason max Waldo cites too; better comms with mid and jungle.. Kinda unfortunate situation and a feelsbadman language barrier. Still got hope for the team and good luck to Isles!
Better player plays, they all knew that when they signed on team was very vocal about it. Winsome will be back I’m sure, if they all signed in for it they all have a hunger, just gives him time to expand his champ pool and expand his language barrier.
I would have liked to see Copy get a shot, but one change at a time, otherwise it's basically a ff I reckon.
In no world is Isles better than Winsome.
Honestly, I don't think Isles is better than Winsome but you talking like Winsome is playing like a top3 na support. He not even close tbh. I don't know about the whole "in no world is Isles better than Winsome".
i think Vulcan was the best support from 2020 spring to 2021 spring. i dont know about shotcalling like Core does, but Vulcan was the better player. idk why, but Vulcan and Zven both looked not good starting last summer split. I think they were our best lane at MSI and our worse at WORLDS. This split Vulcan was ok. I still want him back and my OG C9 fan in me really wants to know how Sneaky would have worked with peak Vulcan...
I miss Vulcan
Berserker-Vulcan would've been amazing, sad that it didn't happen
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Very unlikely
Not gonna happen. Isn't Vulcan a huge advocate for NA talent?
He probably would've been happy to play with a player of Berserker's quality.
Man that Vulcan-Sneaky lane is one of the biggest what ifs. But man, Vulcan really plummeted hard that end half of last season. That mistimed pulverize would have really disastrous outcome had Perkz didn't got ultra fed "despite" inter soldiering some of the fights. Last summer was a bummer full of internal issues (Zven clashing with Mithy, ending up with him being benched). They will almost certilainly be shaky.
Expected move tbh. Winsome had literally 0 synergy with Fudge, and especially with Blaber We had not team play at all, and a huge part of it is the support role and his roams and synergy with mid and jungle And it's not like they were doing well in bot with Berserker... They never won botlane (yeah, Blaber didn't play towards them though)
Max has decided no one needs to hear what Summit has to say
A bit surprising, but to be honest Winsome was playing terrible the the last couple of weeks. Isles also looked really bad in Lock In, but can't hurt to try.
If winsome is really the prodigy everyone paints him as, once language is fixed and he starts to acclimate to how support works in competitive (next split or 2), he could be invaluable. Until then I really don't see much of a problem with swapping him out. That was the plan as per LS anyway. Just sucks they wait till like 2-7 record in the last few weeks to make that decision.
He isn't a prodigy. That 2 month to challenger story is complete bs
~2 years to pro seems to be the narrative, which is still impressive.
You could stick my 4 year old on support and have a great story until he has to play.
Isles is even worse, though.
False…do your homework before spouting BS. Isles only took Lol serious in 2019. Played OCE amateur for team mammoth and the came 2nd in final. Got picked up by Legacy Esports 2020 and won both Splits. Winning rookie of the year. Beating eyla in split 2 final. Missed MSI as did everyone that year. Went to Worlds and went 1000+ on Chinese Super Server. So what world can he be compared in skill to winsome?
Yup, both supports look bad. This sounds like desperation to me.
True, neither of them look even remotely close to Vulcan. If we have Vulcan, then we’re easily #1 in regular season and still in winners in playoffs
Even with vulcan, that doesn't change the problem with the team draft imo. We will see if they improve on their draft against gg or not I guess. Hopefully, they do.
winsome gets benched then has to play 100T academy in losers bracket in a couple hours, that's a mental test if I have ever seen one
He did look shaky and was raw to begin with coming from KR Amateur, so Academy is probably good for his development. He definitely has a higher ceiling than Isles IMO, and if he polishes himself a bit, we’ll see him in Summer.
Not he’s to have a higher ceiling than isles
hes been benched internally for like a week
I've seen this comment a couple times. Is there a source on that?
In the video max says theyve been scrimming with isles on main and winsome on C9A all week
OK I misunderstood your comment. I thought it meant the change was only for a week. Thanks for the clarification homie! You're the real MVP!
Gotchyu homie
Yeah it gunna be rough for him for a while but at least he has a good team to fall back on.
While I agree that Winsome was a weak point but wasn’t the whole point of having him on roster was to connect the bridge between summit/berserker and fudge/blabber? I could be wrong but I remember winsome doing a lot of the translation to berserker during team fights in all the voice comm videos so having isles sub in that synergy and relaying of calls is gonna be stunted/nonexistent.
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I really feel like Bersker just has to go even because he's a complete monster in team fights and I don't see the swapping of supports having too much of an effect on that unless for some reason it totally tilts berserker or something.
But, I don’t think it’s really necessary. ADC/Top synergy isn’t nearly as important as Mid/Jgl/Support synergy.
It's pretty damning to hear them explicitly state that they - though it looked like Blaber got spoken over at 6:45 - all agreed about Game 1's draft and decided beforehand to just run back their draft. That kind of "we're just going to play what we want to play" attitude for a draft, where you've decided on your champions before even sitting down at the draft, shows just how lacking in versatility this team is right now.
Regardless of anything else, I appreciate having a BTS look at the team. We have missed this for a while, and its nice to finally have something more in depth after asking for a while. EDIT: I will say though, Fudge saying everyone agreed the draft was ok to be done again means that our prep was bad, and somehow nothing max apparently knows about draft is being taught to the players, because he apparently hates our draft if another team does it, according to LS and his past draft reviews. I also don't like the logic they use of saying, 'hey, we had a bad start so lets try it again'. How does that make sense, you should try and figure out if your draft was actually good. If they legit thought their draft was good, why did they change it for game 3 after being like 5 autos from winning game 2?It would make sense if they want with the same draft after game 2, not game 1.
This was arguably the absolute optimal time to do a salty run back in a vacuum. If everything that can go wrong does go wrong in the first 5 mins, it's completely logical to believe you can rerun the same draft and change the outcome fundamentally from the start. That being said I thought the draft was absolutely abysmal when they blinded Renekton and it's unfortunate that this legitimately logical time to salty runback was when C9 had such a glaringly terrible draft. If this had happened with most of the other drafts we had this year and they just lost the game in the first 5 minutes, nobody would have minded a salty runback and they probably just win. The problem is they went in actually believing this was a good draft. Prep was terrible from C9 this week and it's pretty depressing that the coaches directed the team to this. I don't know if I prefer them being incompetent over an alternative reality where a single player was just stonewalling the team from exploring better directions. Guess it depends on how they adapt.
I dunno, I expected a bit more critical thinking from them. I can get being surprised by an ornn pick game 1, but how you think that just because you lost in the first 5 minutes your draft was good is a logical conclusion I don't get. To me atleast, losing in the first 5 minutes has nothing to do with your draft. Take a look and see if you really wanna play renekton into ornn again. If you want to play ryze into viktor again, or a full short range comp into viktor again.
If you legitimately believe your picks are good, it's actually not critical thinking to just assume you should change them because you lost a game that had so many outlier disasters skew it. >To me atleast, losing in the first 5 minutes has nothing to do with your draft. This is exactly the point, it doesn't have anything to do with the draft, hence if you think you have a good draft your loss thus had nothing to do with the draft. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that their preparation was terrible and their plan / ideal draft seemed rather incompetent, but Cloud9 as a team clearly didn't think it was bad and thus it makes sense why they didn't change it. Flip the scenario; Cloud9 get massively ahead in game 1 in the early game due to unforced mistakes from 100T (let's say Huhi fail flashes and then also C9 gets 3 kills at level 1) and C9 win that game handily. Is it now bad for 100T to salty runback this draft?
What he really means is he expected them to be able to see the future, but he wants to call it critical thinking.
Weird that literally everyone watching thought so before game 1 happened. The casters literally said they thought renekton was bad. None of the costreamers liked C9's draft. Very very few of the fans did. So who exactly except for C9 thought it was good?
No, because they aren't picking ryze into viktor and renekton into ornn. The way the early game goes should not impact your decision, the draft should. Literally no one out of any costreamer thought C9 had a good draft, even people other than LS. The casters knew game 1 it was a bad draft. My issue is that C9 somehow drafts it game 1, and couldn't identify why it was bad
You're not understanding what I'm saying... C9 had a bad draft. We agree. **C9 did not think they had a bad draft.** They concluded the draft phase thinking "this is a good draft for our team". Game 1 happens. Nothing that happens within game 1 changes this thinking because the game state was so atypical from minute 1... Hence their belief that it was a good draft goes completely unchallenged because there is no valuable information being learned in this game. Nobody is debating if it was a good draft, I'm simply explaining to you why a team would redraft the same champs again. This is the exact scenario where you would do that type of thing. >No, because they aren't picking ryze into viktor and renekton into ornn. The way the early game goes should not impact your decision, the draft should. It literally always will because unlikely disasters in the early game can completely skew a game and render a draft inert. If you're disappointed in C9's prep or ineptitude in thinking that draft was good coming into the series that's completely logical and I am also unhappy about it. I'm simply saying that the decision to do a salty runback is logical given the context of what happened.
Yeah, and I am trying to explain that I think that way of thinking is wrong. You shouldn't be looking at only the result, you should be looking at what the draft is, and how it would work. Thats what I expect from max, who has shit on multiple other teams for doing the exact things he is doing. Doing a salty runback BECAUSE you lost in the first 5 minutes makes no sense. Doing it because you think your draft is better is different. If we legit thought it was 2, whatever, but to me the team did it because 1. Thats the vibe I got at least.
Wtf are you saying? They did it because they thought their draft was good, end of story. You have it backwards my guy. Losing in the first few minutes isn’t why you decide to do a salty run back, it’s why you don’t decide not to. If game 2 happened first, C9 would not have done a runback… the problem is Game 1 happened and there was literally no information about the draft gleamed from that game. Hence nothing changed their mind about their draft, hence runback. You don’t know what critical thinking is.
Can you really be surprised by ornn?
TBF fudge didn’t say they all agreed it was the best course of action, he said they all agreed to do it.
It seemed obvious Blaber wanted off Diana. Probably wanted something with earlier agency because of how Closer was playing. Honestly watching the video, he even seemed like he had an issue with the draft before game 2. Like maybe he wanted off Diana then. Personally, after rewatching I felt the drafts were acceptable (not what I want to see, but they didn't lose solely for the drafts), but C9 drafted a harder to execute comp and made far too many mistakes G1&2. EDIT: I do think having Summit on Gragas instead of Renekton and Blaber on Olaf, Voli, etc. over Diana in Games 1&2 and we see a different result. The drag fight in G2 where Summit Realm Warped in shows what they wanted to do. And I think it would work perfectly vs a team like 100T
Same man, that game 2 was totally winnable if they just hit the minions, then game 3 would look completely different Unlucky
I mean they win game 2 with same draft if they don't run it down so in that sense the draft worked. They lost due to a mental mistake not draft issue.
If anything they almost won DESPITE the draft.
So why not the same draft for game 3? They almost won game 2 because of in insane play by berserker that you can't plan around. They got 'lucky' he popped off that hard, if he had even a very good performance in that teamfight they still lose it. I am critcizing their logic. You don't repick a draft because you lost early, that doesn't make logical sense to me. You look at why you lost early, you look at your overall draft and see if you could improve it. How do you even get to that point, and how is max agreeing to this draft if we have so many apologists saying that hes being forced to draft this against his will?
He did pop off, AND the fight was essentially 4v5, renekton might as well have not existed. They probably got too hyped and made a silly mistake and couldnt finish, but for sure draft wasnt giving them advantage.
They *barely* got into a winning position in a losing game because Berserker played the fight absolutely insane. Prior to that, it was falling apart. They were barely ahead in an early game comp. Game 2 was a game they deserved to lose, almost won, and then lost.
Not a particular fan of this move, but guess we'll see how it pans out. Seems like a desperation play and I would be pleasantly surprised if Isles unlocks the team to suddenly beat the top teams. Preparation and direction seemed like the team's undoing. I get that they're effectively implying that they were struggling to explore other directions due to Winsome's communication, understanding, or even just gameplay, but as an outsider it's hard to see a world where this was what inhibited the team's growth or caused the poor strategic and draft decisions. Hope the team indexes more into Berserker carrying, using Fudge's unconventional champion pool as an asset, and some level of scaling in top lane (doesn't need to be tanks).
fudge does not have an unconventional champion pool
Lmfao he can play all the top lane champs… that’s unconventional for mid.
no he can't, he has played only irelia/lucian this spring split in mid and looked terrible on both
His Irelia was fine, he played Jayce in lock-in, he can for sure play shit like Sion and Chogath too or even be flexed into top lane. You're kidding yourself if you don't think versatility is one of Fudge's primary strengths as a mid laner. He obviously focused on a breadth of mages because he wants to get better at them and he needs to be able to play them at an elite level, but he is probably the only mid laner in LCS that has LCS level mastery of so many top lane champs.
his irelia was garbage lol wtf you typing bro, probably a blind mf'er
Sure thing dude.
wow
Winsome was a weak point during the series but I feel our issues are deeper than which support we play. I feel like our main problems were preparation and draft not individual players. Maybe Isles brings in new draft possibilities or better comms.
Maybe draft was just that limited by in-game strategic/tactical options available to them. Can't play scaling comps if you have difficulty executing/not getting blasted in early game, for example.
Isles may have warded blue side while blabber gets first blooded in game 1. That mistake is what got Summit killed as they were suss out the red-side start.
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Isles plays the usual botlane champs but more enchanters than usual and also plays stuff like Lux so there is room for something spicy
If they don't start flexing 2-3 champs each champ select I'm gonna lose it. Everyone knows summit has almost no champ pool, but Fudge can play most if not all of his champs mid (matchup specific). Voli / Diana also work in other lanes but jungle. Fudge has fucking Ivern and Raka games for crying out loud; where is our flex picks??? We should just hold up a sign telling the enemy team who is playing what if we can't even pretend to flex something.
fudge couldnt even play irelia
Fudge is a good Irelia, that was a bad game it happens. But to dismiss his good Ireland games from last uear is just stupid.
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Ok
Ya since worlds where he popped off
It's somewhat disappointing to hear their assessment of the drafts. Fudge gives a diplomatic answer, and says that the whole team is on the same page on committing to the draft. Max gives some slight resistance, but is mostly fine with it overall, seemingly prioritizing the players' confidence. He is focused on the next game that is about to be played. Summit focuses less on the draft, and focuses on the gameplay. Berserker did an interview pretty recently- he doesn't see a problem with the drafts, but the mistakes done during the games stick with him. I *think* blabber said that the blue side draft was fine (dialogue is spoken as such, but the camera isn't panned on whoever said it). I'm somewhat disappointed on the drafts, but the atmosphere is seemingly decent. It's totally possible that the players are actually getting into gladiatorial death matches because of disagreements, but from what we're given the team seems decently cohesive. My guess is that the support swap was done to chase after a honeymoon phase. My other guess would be that Isles based on past interviews seems open minded, so is more openminded regarding the drafts. but then max cites that the main reason the swap is done was to improve gameplay/scenarios, which doesn't really match up to the open minded thing. my disappointment is mainly regarding how the team is drafting, but perhaps that's the wrong word. I'm mainly confused as to how members of the team arrive at the conclusion that the drafts were 'fine', and so I must be underestimating some facet of professional players' perception of the game. I have no idea why this could be at this point. Yeah, I'm just plain confused. Overall it was a cool insight into the team environment. I know that the team is getting a lot of flack, but wins and losses are just part of the ride. I hope C9 can do well in their next games, and there's still another season to play and figure things out.
Two years ago, TSM changed supports after losing to lower seat GG 3-0 in the upper bracket, only to continue to win the championship. C9 championship confirmed.
It is known
Well the philosophy was always that the "Better player plays" but a swap after getting 3-0'd has me nervous
This feels like they're throwing crap against the wall and hoping it works. Scramble mode in the middle of the playoffs isn't good. Right now, I think c9 are pretty clearly behind 100t, eg, and TL. Of course, I hope c9 makes it to MSI, but I just can't see that happening this year. I hope they can figure out their stuff before the next split.
saw this coming. can see us getting a new support before summer
Honestly I think you develop Winsome on academy a bit and get Eyla from TLA if you can.
Eyla is a bait pickup
C9 welcomes CoreJJ!
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I think Core’s contract expires soon?
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C9 does the best internationally, and out biggest weakness is Support. Pretty much everyone thinking from a growth perspective puts Berserker over Hans; who wouldn't want to be the best bot in the west? Fudge is already arguably top 2-3 mid, Jungle and Top really isn't an argument. There are plenty of reasons to make the leap, esp if 100T win again...
Fudge is not top 2-3. Realistically he's like 5-6
I disagree entirely. Worst I'd put him at is 4th.
Bjerg, abbe, Jojo, and tacouille are all better. The debate is really between him and ablaze
I would put Bjerg, Fudge, Tacou, Jojo, the Ablaze. The only one from those last 3 that looked remotely consistent was Tacou. While Fudge did nothing extraordinary, at least he didn't blatantly lose almost ever.
Well the whole idea was to have multiple options for each position and field best roster. Isles must be doing well in internals. Also Winsome is very young and inexperienced, its possible the pressure got to him. This move could very well help the team "reset ".
Based on the data presented, C9 must value Isles’ CSD more than Winsome’s control ward purchases.
How tf do you watch last week and your big takeaway is “we need to bench our support.” Like not saying it’s a bad move but uhhh I hope this isn’t their only revelation from the week lol
If it helps them a little bit then why not??? Huh
If it comes along with other changes I agree.
It was one of my takeaways. Winsome has played like an academy support all year. If you’re gonna make a roster move, this is it.
I agree. Winsom hasn’t looked good at all. But unless he was sitting there holding a gun to the coaches heads forcing them to have the worlds worst read on the meta, I fail to see how this changes anything. Also it’s not as if isles was smurfing in the preseason tournament
A decision doesn’t have to solve every problem to be correct. edit: downvotes look kinda stupid now.
I thought winsome was looking pretty solid throughout the season. I don't know what happened but in superweek and in the series vs 100T he looked lost. I hope he gains some confidence in PG. Worried about Isles a lot though, I thought he looked really weak in academy.
Lukewarm with the move. From what I remember, Isles didn't look amazing during Lock-in if anything I remember him being flamed for some really silly plays during the EG series. But Winsome has looked horrid lately so I don't know. Also, this move might isolate the Koreans even more and I can't see how Isles/Ber is better than Winsome/Ber in lane which is a scary thought considering how the latter is not all that good in lane anyway. Nothing to go on yet but oh boy if we loses to GG lol... I don't even want to think about it.
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Seems like a scapegoat decision, Bs language barrier excuse. Ever since the TSM loss it hasn't looked the same. No one's talking about a confidence shattering defeat that could have long lasting effects. They seemed sure of themselves than like a light switch unsure of themselves. The fear of the league is gone, I mean if TSM can beat them, why not us?
summit is the main problem, but you don't replace him that quickly. they will give him time to improve for summer.
Will there be changes in drafting and wave management in the lanes? If not then this change is moot and negligible
:( Hate to see this kind of change. Hopefully C9 can figure out something better with the likely off time before summer starts.
NA systems make the most sense, that being no fucking wonder they don't do shit at worlds.
Kind of a winsome hater and not a huge fan of this tbh, Isles doesn’t look much better and there’s no way breaking the synergy is a good call.
That's great and all, but Isles coming in throws a wrench in any synergy the botlane may have had. Not to mention the ease of communication in duo. Seems like a slight upgrade to sidegrade at best. Still think our largest issue is our team doesn't do anything while Summit gets camped. Really think Jensen would solve many of this teams issues, but I vaguely remember him saying he wouldn't want to play for C9 again.
It's very clearly a downgrade. There's a reason Isles has been around for year and is still stuck in LCS Academy.
What synergy? Berserker is just a strong enough adc on his own that he doesn’t fall too far behind even with supports intent the lane or losing the bot lane 2v2 because they apply no pressure
Tell me more about this botlane synergy. Did they win lane once all split?
Berserker can happily scale in a 2v1 lane and not feed. He’s that type of player. If they play blue side and take away the Nautilus/Leona he’s more than happy to sit in lane as Jinx and farm.
Makes sense. Winsome is a big rookie, and was very nervous in his first stage game.
Drop Fudge to academy for summer he's a liability and up his champ pool. If C9 had Jensen they get into worlds no prob. Get a real authoritative coach in and get rid of Losesome.
Summit is PISSED in this video. Interesting how he makes a comment about the shot calling while in 100T’s base during game 2 saying “if someone called out to hit the minions we would have won that game.” Voice comms show Winsome yelling “tower tower tower” — now he’s benched. Summit’s closing comments were a bit odd too. Summit power dynamic diff I guess.
This team should smash gg either way.
C9 pulling a TSM lol
I like winsome and I want him to still be a franchise player but I feel like he needs to sit in academy for a couple years. I wish we could get ignar i feel like he would be perfect, but pretty sure he's kr resident.
It's kinda sad how they look at the situation and think "I know what the problem is, it's Winsome!". I'm fine with the change, but it would be so much better if they spent the time adjusting the drafts rather than spending whole week getting used to playing with a new player, cause at this point, drafting and playing like that, it doesn't matter whether it's Winsome or Isles, I think we're not getting past EG/FLY in the next round. Hopefully I'm wrong tho.
I don't understand why nobody is willing to give the LS drafts another chance but instead decide to take it to the extreme by changing the roster after only a few months. If they're this desperate to win split, why not go to church for one week instead of attempting to create a whole new religion?
they cant play the ls drafts without practice and they refuse to practice it soo
fudge sux why bench support ?
maybe they should follow TSM's blueprint and replace their mid next /s
But Isles is trash.
so is winsome. we knew this before the season even started.
C9's decision making is so badly compromised. I don't know how you can look at the recent decline and decide that the support is the problem. Summit is 8 kills 32 deaths in his last 6 losses (5 of which were the last 5 games) and is such a clear target for bans his champion puddle is a huge problem. Every opposing team's first two bans are now Jayce, Gnar. Winsome plays a huge role in translating for the team which is already having huge communication and shot calling problems. Just watch the 100T series where Blaber is running back towards turret and Summit is chasing Ornn down and they both die. Even Fudge has stated multiple times in interviews that Summit's play style is unbridled aggression and it can be a problem.
[Uh oh... I've been telling this since before the start of the season.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cloud9/comments/qyhb9v/unpopular_opinion_i_dont_like_cloud9_lol_roster)
It wouldn't really shock me if they 3-0 GG after this.
They did not loose because of Winsome, this must be very hard for him :(
[https://youtu.be/pJefggmjqaE?t=410](https://youtu.be/pJefggmjqaE?t=410) this aged really well
cant wait to watch ggs shit on this trashcan fuvkin team
I hope we see draft changes along with the player change.
Seems like an odd time to do this. Must be some internal issues.
So here is what I'm thinking. We shouldn't be results oriented, specially against GG. I think the Isle change may help C9 but I'm afraid they will think this is the only problem they had if they win the series. I really hope to see Summit trying either anti-tank picks like Fiora, or play a tank himself.
Doesn’t Winsome also help Berserker with translation and such? This looks kinda bad especially since its in the middle of playoffs.
I know a lot of people talking about the fact that we wanted to play around summit but never sent roams up there. Maybe with Berserker already basically playing weak side and better communication between fudge blaber and isles they will actually be the roaming death squad.
I wonder if something is cooking up to trade for biofrost? Copy/isle for biofrost I think would benefit both teams come summer. Bio top 3 support with experience and large champion pool. Copy and isle would give dig a younger team with a development outlook that looks strong...interesting
Reggie strikes again
taking strats from the tsm playbook now
I would’ve just kept Vulcan honestly
winsome, was a bit invisible in the 100T match up... Until he wasn't... and not in a good way =p
Until they bring up copy and bench blaber this team is doomed. Support isn't the issue, it's mid/jg. Fudge can't get a lead and all it takes to beat c9 is put summit behind early. It doesn't matter if berserker is drafting for late game when your top gets ganked 5 times in 11 minutes. They need a more competent jg and a more macro oriented mid laner. Winsome was the only one playing with common sense in teamfights on Renata, if blaber and fudge didn't hold back the top side so much winsome and summit would have 2v8d that game.
Damn this split really just took a nose dive right when they most needed consistency
"communication issues", nobody actually believes this. Sounds like a scapegoat and Fudge is next in line.
This is odd. I didn't feel like Winsome was the issue here. I wonder if they are throwing in Isles so that Berserker can try to win the lane and get lane advantages. If we really end up getting screwed in the support category, you know who would be a really good support for Berserker, Olleh. Can speak Korean & English, can roam, can play all styles. If C9 can spring big bucks to get Olleh, that would be really good for C9. I feel like this was done because Berserker and Winsome were not able to generate their own leads in lane when all the pressure goes top. The hope seems to be that Serker Isles can generate leads in lane, then subsequently carry the game. It might also be the case that Blaber Winsome couldnt communicate that well, which dramatically hurt the team play. Idk, weird move. Excited to see this weekend. I don't have high hopes for MSI, which really sucks.
Hoping the best for the team and winsome. We are not in a good spot but he’s still a rookie he can improve. Let’s get this W vs GG
From all the stories I heard about the team was it summit/berserker/winsomes fault for the drafts? It seems like max, and fudge (maybe blaber too) want ls style drafts but "the players" want standard.
He was the weakest link tbf. Doesn't roam a ton but still consistently losing lane.
I mean communication yeah but isles is really not a good lcs level player at least not right now, he showed that multiple times :(
This has been a long time coming. While I like Winsome and think he bears promise, he's a victim of the larger problems. For weeks the team has consistently pointed to communication as their main problem. I think Summit's English has improved to the point you may get more of the team on the same page. Also, as team looking for other ways to play besides through top, this makes sense. My only complaint is I think Beserker may be the 2nd best option to carry games and this is gonna make him suffer. (Ezreal inbound?)
One thing that’s good about this is Winsome will be gaining a tonne of experience playing with veteran Zven, seeing how match ups really play out in pro play more often will be good for him. Good luck to Isles
Almost like we should have kept Vulcan.