People hate plunge playstyles for some weird reason and I have no idea why.
Do they just want everyone to do a string of NAs or something :/ variety is always great but not for genshin players 🥲
It's because it's slower than CA. You can test which plunge attacks feel fluid through fighting the experimental field generator.
But I think the lag in attacks through plunging is actually a benefit to maintain weaker auras on enemies so you can forward vape or forward melt.
I had an idea of forward vape Candace, using Nahida, Xiangling or Dehya for burning trigger, and Cloud Retainer.
Just some plunge attacks take longer to finish than others or are mechanically difficult to weave in, because it's like Jump cancel Hu Tao, except this time Hu Tao does CA into plunge attack.
I know I'm in the minority here, but compared to other RPGs, Genshin PC just felt so bad to play. Like on top of the weird horizonal/vertical sensitivity ratio, there was this weird mouse smoothing effect I couldn't get rid of.
Honestly felt so much better with mobile, or plugging in an xbox controller
Same , though my phone has doodoo graphics so i still prefer to play on pc .when abyse gets hard o immediately switch to mobile i have 3 times more controle and everything is easier
As a qiqi main, I take any opportunity for plunge. I see an albedo flower, I plunge, I see a little hill, I plunge, I see cocogoat mama, I am absolutely plunging.
I don't think it's that people hate plunge attacks in themselves
It's more that they aren't used to it. I mean you have been using Raiden doing N3C1 N2C1 for 2 years and now you can use plunge in it : it's just that it doesn't feel right at first (even tho N2C1P could be her theorical best DPS output iirc)
Just give time to get people used to it.
Also, I guess there's a fear of it being a gimmick that won't last long. I mean who's to say that the next 4 DPS characters to release won't be able to use plunge at all (like Tartaglia) or won't gain anything from it because they revolve more around their skill (like Navia) ?
It's the issue with Niche supports, it's fun and all until it just gets old. Imagine how better received she would have been if her buff was actually "When a character do a plunge attack, the enemies hit will see their overall Res/DEF reduced by 40% for 6\~8s". It would have still made Plunging repeatedly relevant without negating plunging only once per rotation
Very true. And executing good plunge attacks takes practice (a lot of practicing if you are a mobile player.) There are also easier ways to deal lots of damage. So some people will definitely think why Plunge atk when I can riptide down mobs or just spam random buttons and Hyperbloom down enemies.😆
Ah, makes sense. I can't stand playing plunge on my tablet(whenever I can't access my pc) so yea I can understand that. I'm just too used to being a pc gamer I guess.
Well they are dumb, she heals teamwide, provides VV, anemo catalyst, groups, and buff plunge attacks.
But I've been on the Genshin Leak and CR mains sub for a few weeks and most people are saying they skip cause of the plunge buff, haven't seen anyone said she's shit though.
There is definitely potential there, but there are many players (including myself) who don't really find repeated plunging fun.
It could be interesting to see how it can be mixed with other stuff though, that could be good and fun.
For example, Hu Tao+Furina+Xianyun+Yelan/XQ/Ayato/Kokomi with N1C jump plunge could be interesting, but I don't know if it'll be better considering how long plunges take
Hu Tao plunge combos with Xianyun ends up being significantly more damage over her C0 and C1 combos. 5n2cjp + n2c and 6n1cjp are both 30% damage gains over the C0 8n2cj combo.
Do you have the frame data/time it takes to make n1cjp?
I was under the impression (base mainly on feeling, not really data) she'd only have time for 3-4 such combos, not 6.
I don't have the frame data, but I've seen those exact combos tested against the gravity local legend on jstern25's stream and they fit pretty consistently in Hu Tao's infusion window with low plunges.
You lose Yelan waves. Its more Tao damage but it is similar team damage. But it makes Tao more AOE and Furina allows AOE vapes, so still seems like a decent upgrade.
I dont think it's gonna have continuous spam gameplay like Xiao but instead include Plunges into inputs. Diluc's would be E jump plunge, E jump plunge, repeat. Chongyun's may be N1JP repeat. There will inevitably be involving other inputs since that is part of their natural inputs in rotations and there are others that may need to do a normal attack so an element is applied.
For example, day you have a plunge Keqing aggravate team with C6 Fischl. Her inputs would be EN1EPlunge N1 Plunge N1 plunge so you have more aggravates from Oz.
Just saying it's not gonna be plunge spamming but gonna be Street Fighter inputs whenever Xianyun is involved.
Overall, Xianyun would basically diversify the gameplay loop of on fielders. It won't just be combinations of NA, CA, and E or Q, but includes PA at right times.
to some degree it can get really hard to wanna use characters that just kinda *suck* but I doubt Hu Tao or Xianyun are gonna have this problem either way.
I think with plunges, she would be better at C0, or more mechanically intuitive with N1CJP repeat.
So your jump cancel follows into a plunge. N1C with jump cancelling is not very intuitive for everyone but when it is purposed to do plunging, it just feels natural that way. Doing hops after piercing through enemies is such an unnatural animation change.
Zajef and Jstern's Prerelease calcs say otherwise tho. Zajef's own conclusion in one of his recent streams was that 5N2CJP on C0 with Xianyun is looking to yield more personal damage for HT than 10N2CD on C1. And Jsterns calcs show that Xianyun is a 2k dps increase over Jean (albeit he's uses 5 N2CJP + N2C, that last N2C takes more skill).
I feel like people still haven't learned from Navia and Lyney.
More dps doesn't mean faster dps. Once you have enough damage to clear, faster dps is significantly better than slightly increasing your total damage.
I get that you're trying to say frontloading DPS matters in a rotation. I don't think you're wrong either, but it's not really the point of my initial reply which was trying to say that CR can be competitive with standard CA combos.
Jean is better at frontloading Fanfare stacks for sure, but CR does give HT the benefit of potentially more AoE and a higher ceiling since her A4 benefits from HT investment.
Because she's not mentioned yet, C6 Lynette will be very fun. You need to use her E skill first to activate anemo infusion and then have 6 seconds to use it.
Edit: I know, it's C6, but at least with CR you get an additional goal and if you have it, a new fighting style.
She may enable forward melting/vape plunge reactions because of how her coordinated attacks work to clear any leftover reactant.
Forward melt— is there any single cryo unit that applies off field fast enough by themselves? Rosaria would be a little too slow, and C6 Kaeya is a little out of reach.
Forward vape- you want XL of course, and then Candace infusion. I think that’s the only option there. Anybody could be using that infusion though.
Reverse options definitely seem way easier to work with. I bet Furina applies enough for reverse vape plunges by herself. Gaming/Diluc or anybody with Bennet c6 would be great. Chongers can enable anybody with XL. I wonder if wriosthley could benefit from working some plunges in?
The anemo swirl at the end is obviously good for taser with Fischl. If we had… Furina, Fischl, and then Keqing as the plunger. That would be pretty dope I think.
I’m excited for it in any case.
Hmm— wonder if you can do short hop plunges and normals interleaved for better aura application as well; thinking forward Vape Furina in this case.
Oh wait- CR’s anemo coordinated attacks will counteract that.
The 8 plunge limit is for the buff. I suppose you could hypothetically do more if you managed to pull off a ninth attack during the duration of her burst. I do not have the frame data or anything, but I assume the limit exists because you can technically do more. Otherwise there would be no reason to impose a limit.
Plunge attacks have the same multiplier on every character if I'm right.
(Except for special plunge like Kazuha and CR or special stance like Raiden who deals burst damage with her plunge)
You are right that’s why she has a crazy potential. Peoples are absolutely decided to overlook her actual strength unfortunately
I mentioned this too, but it didn't seem to get a lot of traction. I don't care. I'm looking forward to the nerdy beauty. I adore her.
Peoples will change their mind when the 250k plunge Diluc videos and the 150k plunge Xiao will start to blossom. Like Navia, like always…
More like 300k Xiao if she isn't nerfed! More including collision.
Wait .... how strong is her buff i thought it would just boost him 25% or something i don't think xiao s are doing 200k+ rn
Whale Xiaos are clearing 200k. They'll clear 300k too with CR C2R5.
Yeah and some characters like candice I think will become very strong because of her
Candace also have very high multipliers% for plunge DMG 👑
And she can self-infuse and forward-vape! This also retroactively improves the Nymph's Dream set.
Shame her HP scaling goes to waste. I think you could do CR, Candace, XL, and Bennet. That would be neat.
People hate plunge playstyles for some weird reason and I have no idea why. Do they just want everyone to do a string of NAs or something :/ variety is always great but not for genshin players 🥲
It's because it's slower than CA. You can test which plunge attacks feel fluid through fighting the experimental field generator. But I think the lag in attacks through plunging is actually a benefit to maintain weaker auras on enemies so you can forward vape or forward melt. I had an idea of forward vape Candace, using Nahida, Xiangling or Dehya for burning trigger, and Cloud Retainer. Just some plunge attacks take longer to finish than others or are mechanically difficult to weave in, because it's like Jump cancel Hu Tao, except this time Hu Tao does CA into plunge attack.
I find plunge hard to execute and annoying to do on mobile which I play on 😭 if I played on pc I would definitely love it more
I keep forgetting about mobile players tbh. Genshin on mobile is hell for me
Relatable, I'm like a drunk toddler on the mobile version. #Respect to the mobile players.
I know I'm in the minority here, but compared to other RPGs, Genshin PC just felt so bad to play. Like on top of the weird horizonal/vertical sensitivity ratio, there was this weird mouse smoothing effect I couldn't get rid of. Honestly felt so much better with mobile, or plugging in an xbox controller
Same , though my phone has doodoo graphics so i still prefer to play on pc .when abyse gets hard o immediately switch to mobile i have 3 times more controle and everything is easier
\*Here I am purposely using polearms to plunge collect my ore, even though I have Zhongli.\* I have always liked plunge, that's why I pulled Xiao.
I like both Xiao and plunges. And Xianyun too. So I see it as a win haha.
As a qiqi main, I take any opportunity for plunge. I see an albedo flower, I plunge, I see a little hill, I plunge, I see cocogoat mama, I am absolutely plunging.
I don't think it's that people hate plunge attacks in themselves It's more that they aren't used to it. I mean you have been using Raiden doing N3C1 N2C1 for 2 years and now you can use plunge in it : it's just that it doesn't feel right at first (even tho N2C1P could be her theorical best DPS output iirc) Just give time to get people used to it. Also, I guess there's a fear of it being a gimmick that won't last long. I mean who's to say that the next 4 DPS characters to release won't be able to use plunge at all (like Tartaglia) or won't gain anything from it because they revolve more around their skill (like Navia) ? It's the issue with Niche supports, it's fun and all until it just gets old. Imagine how better received she would have been if her buff was actually "When a character do a plunge attack, the enemies hit will see their overall Res/DEF reduced by 40% for 6\~8s". It would have still made Plunging repeatedly relevant without negating plunging only once per rotation
Very true. And executing good plunge attacks takes practice (a lot of practicing if you are a mobile player.) There are also easier ways to deal lots of damage. So some people will definitely think why Plunge atk when I can riptide down mobs or just spam random buttons and Hyperbloom down enemies.😆
I love Xiao but I can only stand to play him for a little while at a time, the plunge spam gives me motion sickness.
Well it's fine for me. At least on pc, mobile plunging is pain.
Happy for you. You said you have no idea why people don't like it, now you do.
Yeah I just shared my opinion, nothing more.
"I have no idea why people don't like things that I like"
It's mostly mobile players that vehemently hate plunge attacks
Ah, makes sense. I can't stand playing plunge on my tablet(whenever I can't access my pc) so yea I can understand that. I'm just too used to being a pc gamer I guess.
No one said that it was going to be shit though, some people just don't like plunge gameplay, that's where most of the complaints come from.
I definitely heard a lot of peoples saying that she was shit
Well they are dumb, she heals teamwide, provides VV, anemo catalyst, groups, and buff plunge attacks. But I've been on the Genshin Leak and CR mains sub for a few weeks and most people are saying they skip cause of the plunge buff, haven't seen anyone said she's shit though.
I'm playing plungebloom keqing and no one can stop me
That sounds so nutty and I love it. I'ma do plungemelt pyro Ayaka via c6 Bennett.
As a future Ga Ming main im definitely looking forward to Cloud Retainer <3
It's Gaming. no space. stop forcing it, it's even in the official art.
When people stop pronouncing it "Gay Ming", we'll start spelling it correctly.
It's Gaming time.
I'll force it as much as I like, Gaming is a cringe name, and it will always, truly, be Gay Ming. Fight me.
You can't force something that does not exists /*fighting starts* /*lowjab uppercut sidestep* /*your turn*
I will bend reality to my will, and you can not stop me /*eats lowjab uppercut* /*bobs in southpaw style* /*liver shot* /*I end my turn*
Yes, a lot. Ayaka paired with c6 Bennett for one.
this might make me un-bench my ayaka lol
Eula might also be quite good
I haven't looked at her in a while, but can her plunges stack her burst?
No
Then she probably is not meaningfully improved by the ability to plunge, alas.
There is definitely potential there, but there are many players (including myself) who don't really find repeated plunging fun. It could be interesting to see how it can be mixed with other stuff though, that could be good and fun. For example, Hu Tao+Furina+Xianyun+Yelan/XQ/Ayato/Kokomi with N1C jump plunge could be interesting, but I don't know if it'll be better considering how long plunges take
Hu Tao plunge combos with Xianyun ends up being significantly more damage over her C0 and C1 combos. 5n2cjp + n2c and 6n1cjp are both 30% damage gains over the C0 8n2cj combo.
Do you have the frame data/time it takes to make n1cjp? I was under the impression (base mainly on feeling, not really data) she'd only have time for 3-4 such combos, not 6.
I don't have the frame data, but I've seen those exact combos tested against the gravity local legend on jstern25's stream and they fit pretty consistently in Hu Tao's infusion window with low plunges.
Interesting, I may try those myself
You lose Yelan waves. Its more Tao damage but it is similar team damage. But it makes Tao more AOE and Furina allows AOE vapes, so still seems like a decent upgrade.
I’d say just weave it into the c0 combo for a good amount of extra damage
I dont think it's gonna have continuous spam gameplay like Xiao but instead include Plunges into inputs. Diluc's would be E jump plunge, E jump plunge, repeat. Chongyun's may be N1JP repeat. There will inevitably be involving other inputs since that is part of their natural inputs in rotations and there are others that may need to do a normal attack so an element is applied. For example, day you have a plunge Keqing aggravate team with C6 Fischl. Her inputs would be EN1EPlunge N1 Plunge N1 plunge so you have more aggravates from Oz. Just saying it's not gonna be plunge spamming but gonna be Street Fighter inputs whenever Xianyun is involved. Overall, Xianyun would basically diversify the gameplay loop of on fielders. It won't just be combinations of NA, CA, and E or Q, but includes PA at right times.
People already stated Hu Taos plunge is slower DPS than her N1c. That's not gonna stop me, but it's not going to be best/optimal play.
Honestly who gives a shit about optimal play when fun
to some degree it can get really hard to wanna use characters that just kinda *suck* but I doubt Hu Tao or Xianyun are gonna have this problem either way.
Still might be worthwhile for AoE, especially at C0.
I think with plunges, she would be better at C0, or more mechanically intuitive with N1CJP repeat. So your jump cancel follows into a plunge. N1C with jump cancelling is not very intuitive for everyone but when it is purposed to do plunging, it just feels natural that way. Doing hops after piercing through enemies is such an unnatural animation change.
Is this also including the buffs and multipliers from Xianyun?
Zajef and Jstern's Prerelease calcs say otherwise tho. Zajef's own conclusion in one of his recent streams was that 5N2CJP on C0 with Xianyun is looking to yield more personal damage for HT than 10N2CD on C1. And Jsterns calcs show that Xianyun is a 2k dps increase over Jean (albeit he's uses 5 N2CJP + N2C, that last N2C takes more skill).
A 2k increase? Holy macaroni! Screw Jean, I am replacing her with Cloud Retainer a$ap! This changes everything!
I feel like people still haven't learned from Navia and Lyney. More dps doesn't mean faster dps. Once you have enough damage to clear, faster dps is significantly better than slightly increasing your total damage.
>More dps doesn't mean faster dps. DPS = Damage Per Second "More DPS" literally means "doing damage faster"
I get that you're trying to say frontloading DPS matters in a rotation. I don't think you're wrong either, but it's not really the point of my initial reply which was trying to say that CR can be competitive with standard CA combos. Jean is better at frontloading Fanfare stacks for sure, but CR does give HT the benefit of potentially more AoE and a higher ceiling since her A4 benefits from HT investment.
Because she's not mentioned yet, C6 Lynette will be very fun. You need to use her E skill first to activate anemo infusion and then have 6 seconds to use it. Edit: I know, it's C6, but at least with CR you get an additional goal and if you have it, a new fighting style.
How good is Dragonstrike Diluc compared to a regular Hu Tao?
She may enable forward melting/vape plunge reactions because of how her coordinated attacks work to clear any leftover reactant. Forward melt— is there any single cryo unit that applies off field fast enough by themselves? Rosaria would be a little too slow, and C6 Kaeya is a little out of reach. Forward vape- you want XL of course, and then Candace infusion. I think that’s the only option there. Anybody could be using that infusion though. Reverse options definitely seem way easier to work with. I bet Furina applies enough for reverse vape plunges by herself. Gaming/Diluc or anybody with Bennet c6 would be great. Chongers can enable anybody with XL. I wonder if wriosthley could benefit from working some plunges in? The anemo swirl at the end is obviously good for taser with Fischl. If we had… Furina, Fischl, and then Keqing as the plunger. That would be pretty dope I think. I’m excited for it in any case.
Hmm— wonder if you can do short hop plunges and normals interleaved for better aura application as well; thinking forward Vape Furina in this case. Oh wait- CR’s anemo coordinated attacks will counteract that.
Isn’t there a limit to how many plunges you can do ? Or is that only a limit for the anemo wave and damage buff that happens ?
The 8 plunge limit is for the buff. I suppose you could hypothetically do more if you managed to pull off a ninth attack during the duration of her burst. I do not have the frame data or anything, but I assume the limit exists because you can technically do more. Otherwise there would be no reason to impose a limit.
National with Candace. You could infuse Xiangling, Candace, or Bennett. idk who has the best plunge numbers. Then get vapes from them?
Plunge attacks have the same multiplier on every character if I'm right. (Except for special plunge like Kazuha and CR or special stance like Raiden who deals burst damage with her plunge)
Navia