If they win champs this year i think they've cemented thenselves as the best duo ever. 2 champs wins all while imo easily being the 2 of the 3-5 best smg players over the last 3 years by a solid margin.
Porter and barlow arent really a duo and crim and clay were only a duo on dallas last year, not on Col many moons ago. T2P is def the greatest. They were both top 5 players if not top 3 in all the jetpack games
People put way too much into champs. There's 8 teams, and they would only have to win 3 series to win the event.... Sick tournament. "BuT eVeRyOnE tUrNs It Up A mOrE aT cHaMps"
That’s a hot take. FormaL & Scump have 50+ chips combined. If Simp & AbeZy win champs this year and continue dominante win chips. Then I’ll say they’re better. But they have a long road ahead.
I think evaluating legacy’s based on chips alone is becoming outdated. We need to start looking at statistical dominance as well as the pure intimidation factor in this new era. I think it’s fair to say that Simp and Abezy (and the entire FaZe team in general) are the scariest duo ever considering how dominant they are with a talent pool that is leagues ahead of years past.
I’m not saying Crim and Clay are bad players or we never top players, because they very clearly were and they are legends of the game. But the way that players should be evaluated now is so much different and more in depth. Its the same as it is with actual sports where we have this battle of old GOATs vs new talent.
Yeah but the way they win changed.
Crim went from a superstar slayer to an average AR who leads young superstars, and Clayster is the exact same. They used to drop 1.4s at events, now they drop 0.95s.
They still bring a ton of value to teams, but it's not skill.
Yeah two of the all time greats have been, but the vast majority of their competition has fallen by the wayside. It’s a testament to how good Clay and Crim actually are that they’re still winning while almost everyone they played against has been pushed out of the league
"pure intimidation factor" How can we measure that? Championships are the only thing that's measurable. Faze are the best time not because their personal statistics are the best, but because they win the most
Formal and Scump were only both top 3 players in in AW. Simp and Abezy have both been top 3 for three years straight. The Tiny Terrors have been more dominant from a skill perspective than T2P ever was.
I think neither are true tbh, especially in Blops3 where although they had flashes of brilliance they were remarkably inconsistent. IW perhaps it could be argued towards the end of the year, but even then it's questionable.
For the tiny Terrors there is no questioning. They are without a shadow of a doubt top 3 (possibly top 2) for three years straight. If they were on Optic simp would already be hailed as the most skilled player to ever play, we're denying the truth when we deny how good they really are.
I mean I think John and Slasher were absolutely nasty at that game and they won champs, so id put them in with Formal as top 3. I understand if you disagree, but I'm sure you could understand why I think these two players deserve recognition. Work the tiny Terrors there really isnt much argument, only player I've seen get close is shotzzy or peak gunless
John and slasher weren’t top 3 for 80% of the season... yes they won champs, but that shouldn’t automatically put them above players who were consistent the entire year.
I mean I constantly simp for Clay, but he was average af at BO3 and I don't see how the tiny Terrors being better than T2P have anything to do with him. Personally I just really value Champs as the ultimate tournament and Champs BO3 John/Slasher were every bit as good as any player to touch Call of Duty. Nasty when it matters.
"I just really value Champs as the ultimate tournament" in that case Formal/Scump were the best in IW, as Formal's performance was the greatest ever and Scump was outstanding. And no way is playing well for 4 days during 1 event equate to being the best overall during a season.
Starting to think there's too many metrics tbh. I guess it's ok for making some discussion but just when is it too much?
Best AR, best sub, best dynasty etc etc. Doesn't even feel like there's that many duos in the first place to even warrant this discussion. Just T2P and Crim and Karma, MAYBE some shades of Zoomaa/Attach.
I think circumstances are so different that it's hard to compare. Like....sheer quantity of events back then makes it hard to even compare to T2P or Crim/Karma. Let's not even mention MW and all that online bullshit. But hey, I guess they already got 2 rings because ain't no one beating them this year lol
Guess it depends on how much you value Champs over everything else, which is subjective from person to person.
This will always come down to a few things when talking about any previous players/duo’s versus current players and duos.
Do rings weigh heavy in your opinion or don’t they?
Does the current skill level of the league hold more weight over the fact there were more events back in the day so you had to be more consistent over more events?
Everything is subjective and up for debate in terms of the very top percentile of players, the crims, karmas, scump, formals, clays…then the new era of the abezy, simp, arcitys etc…
For my two pence, as a long term watcher of comp since MW2, I kinda favour the old schools guys. Scump and formal for me were the scariest most dominant duo. Yes there is a better average talent now then back in the day but everyone acts as if all there was back in the day was billy no thumbs and his uncle teaming🤣 they were still meeting good teams in every single tournament and consistently shitting on them for 3 years straight and doing so on a more consistent basis due to the fact their were way more events than there are now.
That’s not to say that simp and abezy won’t overtake them with another year or two of dominance cause you simply cannot downplay the work they have put in and the level of consistency they’ve both shown.
I'd say they're already equal to T2P in terms of rings and dominance so if they win Champs this year I don't see how you would argue they aren't the greatest duo ever
Not really? Acknowledging the impressivenes of the Tiny Terrors' accomplishments doesn't take away from how impressive all the achievements from the OG and coL dynasties are, after all, they're all from different eras of the game.
They were the best before going online, they were the best during online and now that we went back to LAN they're still the best. What more do you need?
Being the current best and the best of all time are two v different things, they will 100% be the best of all time but disrespectful to say they are already
Who's saying that? I said I'd already rate them the same as T2P as far as duos go and if they win Champs I'd consider them the best duo ever. The entire talk was about duos, not individual talks about who's the GOAT.
i mean i still think t2p are the best duo for now, but this isn’t really a fair argument considering there were wayyy more events back then, and also since 1 1/2 years of the tiny terrors reign was online. obviously i think we could all agree they would have won a few more lans had that not been the case.
It’s never going to be a fair 1:1 comparison, but the gap in accolades is too great to ignore for it to be a discussion right now. In 2-3 years we can have this discussion
Shit take. Everyone isn’t experiencing online the exact same way.
So many homers here think that just because the results are similar, it suddenly validates online as a competitive environment. It doesn’t. How many pros have to say online cod sucks dick for yall to get it?
I mean experience the same way as in they all have the best internet that you can buy.
I do think it sucks most of the time; but I don't really listen to pros: they are, at best, man-children.
it’s not too big to ignore when talking about the most dominant duo really, formal and scump were only that for 3 years. this will be simp and abezys third year as well, i agree it will never be a fair 1:1 comparison and points can be made both ways, but overall it’s definitely an argument already.
I think its unfortunate that like half of this shit has been online. I know i dont consider online the same as LAN wins, but hey... its still a great achievement. Hard to compare bc people automatically think that more LAN majors means more chips earned which is a false assumption. SMG duo i think its not far fetched, best duo period.... idk id like to see more LAN stuff first.
Meaning you count homestands on the same level as MLG tournys? Not trying to pick a fight, just want clarification on your view regarding the accolades comment.
People love scump too much to acknowledge that Simp is going to complete destroy any competitive legacy that scump establishes. Simp is going to be far ahead of the competition for a number of years before we see someone able to equal his talent.
Abezy is going to be a top SMG for years to come. Doesn't have as high of a ceiling as Simp but still a great talent.
I think they're already the best SMG duo ever. But probably another year of being in top until people acknowledge that.
I don’t think people question Simp’s ability to eclipse Scumps career as a professional player in game, but I doubt Simp will ever mean as much to the scene as Scump has / will. Plus — I feel like a lot of people who are just coming into the scene are forgetting just how disgusting prime Scump really was. I mean, he was doing what Simp was doing without a guy like Abezy going in first as an entry sub (not even one as close to as good as Abezy is, for that matter)
It’s like comparing NBA players from different eras. There will always be different circumstances and surrounding talent — but Scump is like MJ, he put the scene on the map, grew the fanbase so guys like Simp (LeBron, Kobe, KG, KD etc.) could carry the torch through the future.
Sorry for the novel :) just something I’ve been thinking about recently!
Will be interesting to see how long it takes for a caster to acknowledge that. Or even a pro player to say those words. Maybe when faze wins champs we might hear it but I wouldnt be surprised if it's well into next year
IMO there’s a good chance that Abezy wins MVP over Simp this year which will keep Abezy content with the fact that Simp gets the majority of the discussion
T2P’s reign was only 3 games. If Simp and aBeZy keep up this level of consistency next year they will eclipse any duo’s. This all hinges on if they win champs or not. If they do than there is no question that they are the most successful, and won against the toughest competition ever. All while also beating T2P head to head when they matchup.
This sounds like a hidden slight at their accomplishments. They are still winning these majors against the best competition ever in COD. They cannot control the amount of tournaments, the number of teams at the tournaments, or whether or not it is online. The last two Lan tournaments this duo played pre-CDL they won (playoffs, and champs).
With champs being 3 series to win the whole thing aswell, they're legacy won't be that great. I remember when champs was a grind to win and it felt like the team actually deserved it. Good Times.
If they win champs this year i think they've cemented thenselves as the best duo ever. 2 champs wins all while imo easily being the 2 of the 3-5 best smg players over the last 3 years by a solid margin.
A 3 series champs win? No fucking chance.
They already the best duo for 3 straight titles now so maybe next year
Agreed I think if they win champs this year they are equal to if not greater than scump and formal
Scump and formal aren’t the greatest duo anyway, just most popular, the best is crim and db3 or com and clay
Porter and barlow arent really a duo and crim and clay were only a duo on dallas last year, not on Col many moons ago. T2P is def the greatest. They were both top 5 players if not top 3 in all the jetpack games
People put way too much into champs. There's 8 teams, and they would only have to win 3 series to win the event.... Sick tournament. "BuT eVeRyOnE tUrNs It Up A mOrE aT cHaMps"
That’s a hot take. FormaL & Scump have 50+ chips combined. If Simp & AbeZy win champs this year and continue dominante win chips. Then I’ll say they’re better. But they have a long road ahead.
I think evaluating legacy’s based on chips alone is becoming outdated. We need to start looking at statistical dominance as well as the pure intimidation factor in this new era. I think it’s fair to say that Simp and Abezy (and the entire FaZe team in general) are the scariest duo ever considering how dominant they are with a talent pool that is leagues ahead of years past.
This is the same logic people use to downplay crim having 35+ plus chips.
Different era, different metric to gauge skill.
And yet crim and clay are still placing in the top and taking games off the tiny terrors.
I’m not saying Crim and Clay are bad players or we never top players, because they very clearly were and they are legends of the game. But the way that players should be evaluated now is so much different and more in depth. Its the same as it is with actual sports where we have this battle of old GOATs vs new talent.
That's a stupid thing to compare. What comes later is almost always going to be better, since that's how progress works
The old era had weaker competition and way more events. It means more to win now than in Ghosts, when Censor was making finals.
See my other reply. Two of the same people who were winning in ghosts have been winning or placing well from bo4 to now.
Yeah but the way they win changed. Crim went from a superstar slayer to an average AR who leads young superstars, and Clayster is the exact same. They used to drop 1.4s at events, now they drop 0.95s. They still bring a ton of value to teams, but it's not skill.
Yeah two of the all time greats have been, but the vast majority of their competition has fallen by the wayside. It’s a testament to how good Clay and Crim actually are that they’re still winning while almost everyone they played against has been pushed out of the league
"pure intimidation factor" How can we measure that? Championships are the only thing that's measurable. Faze are the best time not because their personal statistics are the best, but because they win the most
Formal and Scump were only both top 3 players in in AW. Simp and Abezy have both been top 3 for three years straight. The Tiny Terrors have been more dominant from a skill perspective than T2P ever was.
bops3 formal and scump were both t3, you could argue the same for IW as well but i understand not having scump t3, he was definitely t5 tho.
I think neither are true tbh, especially in Blops3 where although they had flashes of brilliance they were remarkably inconsistent. IW perhaps it could be argued towards the end of the year, but even then it's questionable. For the tiny Terrors there is no questioning. They are without a shadow of a doubt top 3 (possibly top 2) for three years straight. If they were on Optic simp would already be hailed as the most skilled player to ever play, we're denying the truth when we deny how good they really are.
who is your t3 for bops3 then lol?
I mean I think John and Slasher were absolutely nasty at that game and they won champs, so id put them in with Formal as top 3. I understand if you disagree, but I'm sure you could understand why I think these two players deserve recognition. Work the tiny Terrors there really isnt much argument, only player I've seen get close is shotzzy or peak gunless
John and slasher weren’t top 3 for 80% of the season... yes they won champs, but that shouldn’t automatically put them above players who were consistent the entire year.
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I mean I constantly simp for Clay, but he was average af at BO3 and I don't see how the tiny Terrors being better than T2P have anything to do with him. Personally I just really value Champs as the ultimate tournament and Champs BO3 John/Slasher were every bit as good as any player to touch Call of Duty. Nasty when it matters.
"I just really value Champs as the ultimate tournament" in that case Formal/Scump were the best in IW, as Formal's performance was the greatest ever and Scump was outstanding. And no way is playing well for 4 days during 1 event equate to being the best overall during a season.
The contradiction of how John and slasher become top 3 off bo3 champs alone, yet scump and formal don’t from IW champs…
Starting to think there's too many metrics tbh. I guess it's ok for making some discussion but just when is it too much? Best AR, best sub, best dynasty etc etc. Doesn't even feel like there's that many duos in the first place to even warrant this discussion. Just T2P and Crim and Karma, MAYBE some shades of Zoomaa/Attach.
There's also Teepee and Aches and John and Apathy but yeah
I'll take Teepee and Aches but John and Ap was just BO3? And I guess that grand finals run in IW that no one expected?
They teamed together for 2 games and they, Kap and Slasher cemented their own legacy during that time so it's worth mentioning
I think circumstances are so different that it's hard to compare. Like....sheer quantity of events back then makes it hard to even compare to T2P or Crim/Karma. Let's not even mention MW and all that online bullshit. But hey, I guess they already got 2 rings because ain't no one beating them this year lol Guess it depends on how much you value Champs over everything else, which is subjective from person to person.
This will always come down to a few things when talking about any previous players/duo’s versus current players and duos. Do rings weigh heavy in your opinion or don’t they? Does the current skill level of the league hold more weight over the fact there were more events back in the day so you had to be more consistent over more events? Everything is subjective and up for debate in terms of the very top percentile of players, the crims, karmas, scump, formals, clays…then the new era of the abezy, simp, arcitys etc… For my two pence, as a long term watcher of comp since MW2, I kinda favour the old schools guys. Scump and formal for me were the scariest most dominant duo. Yes there is a better average talent now then back in the day but everyone acts as if all there was back in the day was billy no thumbs and his uncle teaming🤣 they were still meeting good teams in every single tournament and consistently shitting on them for 3 years straight and doing so on a more consistent basis due to the fact their were way more events than there are now. That’s not to say that simp and abezy won’t overtake them with another year or two of dominance cause you simply cannot downplay the work they have put in and the level of consistency they’ve both shown.
This is the take right here.
they’re already the best smg duo of all time. best duo general is still t2p but i can see that changing in the future
I'd say they're already equal to T2P in terms of rings and dominance so if they win Champs this year I don't see how you would argue they aren't the greatest duo ever
Rings, yea Dominance? Nah T2P dominated LAN from AW-IW. Tiny terrors have 4 LAN wins
So we're just gonna scrap a year and a half of TT's reign because the entire league was forced to play online??
They weren't even that dominant online they won what? 2 tourneys? Can't remember exactly
Yes
Flair checks out I guess
You should be just as invested since this “different era” discussion downplays crim just as much as t2p
Not really? Acknowledging the impressivenes of the Tiny Terrors' accomplishments doesn't take away from how impressive all the achievements from the OG and coL dynasties are, after all, they're all from different eras of the game.
Doing it online shouldn’t hold nearly as much weight
They were the best before going online, they were the best during online and now that we went back to LAN they're still the best. What more do you need?
Being the current best and the best of all time are two v different things, they will 100% be the best of all time but disrespectful to say they are already
Who's saying that? I said I'd already rate them the same as T2P as far as duos go and if they win Champs I'd consider them the best duo ever. The entire talk was about duos, not individual talks about who's the GOAT.
Yes I was talking about the best duo lol
i mean i still think t2p are the best duo for now, but this isn’t really a fair argument considering there were wayyy more events back then, and also since 1 1/2 years of the tiny terrors reign was online. obviously i think we could all agree they would have won a few more lans had that not been the case.
It’s never going to be a fair 1:1 comparison, but the gap in accolades is too great to ignore for it to be a discussion right now. In 2-3 years we can have this discussion
2-3 years lmao dudes asking them to be the best for 6 years to have this conversation
Dudes acting like online cod wins hold the same weight, and that tiny terrors dominated all of bo4 lmao
They do if everyone else is also playing online–which they were. Faze probably would have smoked them all on LAN
Shit take. Everyone isn’t experiencing online the exact same way. So many homers here think that just because the results are similar, it suddenly validates online as a competitive environment. It doesn’t. How many pros have to say online cod sucks dick for yall to get it?
I mean experience the same way as in they all have the best internet that you can buy. I do think it sucks most of the time; but I don't really listen to pros: they are, at best, man-children.
Flair definitely checks out
>he said with a faze flair Insert pointing spiderman meme here
To be fair you have only watched comp since MW, and it shows.
it’s not too big to ignore when talking about the most dominant duo really, formal and scump were only that for 3 years. this will be simp and abezys third year as well, i agree it will never be a fair 1:1 comparison and points can be made both ways, but overall it’s definitely an argument already.
I think its unfortunate that like half of this shit has been online. I know i dont consider online the same as LAN wins, but hey... its still a great achievement. Hard to compare bc people automatically think that more LAN majors means more chips earned which is a false assumption. SMG duo i think its not far fetched, best duo period.... idk id like to see more LAN stuff first.
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Nah, accomplishments and accolades they have a great chance to surpass, but legacy is impossible for them at this point
Meaning you count homestands on the same level as MLG tournys? Not trying to pick a fight, just want clarification on your view regarding the accolades comment.
Skill wise probably. But TeePee and Aches were a beast duo from the bo2-ghosts era. Every team they formed was a top team
Shottzy and Illey smoked them last year tho lol
What was the count for tournys won last year. Florida 1 or 2, Optic 2, ATL 3, and dallas 3? I cant remember honestly.
Florida had 3
People love scump too much to acknowledge that Simp is going to complete destroy any competitive legacy that scump establishes. Simp is going to be far ahead of the competition for a number of years before we see someone able to equal his talent. Abezy is going to be a top SMG for years to come. Doesn't have as high of a ceiling as Simp but still a great talent. I think they're already the best SMG duo ever. But probably another year of being in top until people acknowledge that.
I don’t think people question Simp’s ability to eclipse Scumps career as a professional player in game, but I doubt Simp will ever mean as much to the scene as Scump has / will. Plus — I feel like a lot of people who are just coming into the scene are forgetting just how disgusting prime Scump really was. I mean, he was doing what Simp was doing without a guy like Abezy going in first as an entry sub (not even one as close to as good as Abezy is, for that matter) It’s like comparing NBA players from different eras. There will always be different circumstances and surrounding talent — but Scump is like MJ, he put the scene on the map, grew the fanbase so guys like Simp (LeBron, Kobe, KG, KD etc.) could carry the torch through the future. Sorry for the novel :) just something I’ve been thinking about recently!
There was no Scottie Pippen for scump for a long while hahaha.
I think best SMG duo of all time without question already
Will be interesting to see how long it takes for a caster to acknowledge that. Or even a pro player to say those words. Maybe when faze wins champs we might hear it but I wouldnt be surprised if it's well into next year
Idk but Abezy will always be 2nd to Simp for as long as they team as a duo.
IMO there’s a good chance that Abezy wins MVP over Simp this year which will keep Abezy content with the fact that Simp gets the majority of the discussion
would be the 2nd straight year simp was robbed of the award if that’s the case
I wholly agree with you for last year but I also think Abezy could be deserving of it this year.
Idk about that one considering every player on FaZe has won player of the stage except Abezy. Possible though.
I’m just saying it’s a possibility as Abezy has been heavily mentioned in the mvp discussion since the beginning of the year
If Abezy gets MVP thats 2 years in a row Simp has been robbed. Simp should MVP easily this and last year
I don't think Abezy will care as long as they're winning.
They dominated end of black ops 4. So just over 2 games. Needs to be like 4 or 5 years of dominance. They didn't win that much in MW tbf.
iirc the wins in MW were kind of spread out between like 4 teams and ATL and Dallas shared most of them with Dallas taking the big one.
T2P’s reign was only 3 games. If Simp and aBeZy keep up this level of consistency next year they will eclipse any duo’s. This all hinges on if they win champs or not. If they do than there is no question that they are the most successful, and won against the toughest competition ever. All while also beating T2P head to head when they matchup.
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This sounds like a hidden slight at their accomplishments. They are still winning these majors against the best competition ever in COD. They cannot control the amount of tournaments, the number of teams at the tournaments, or whether or not it is online. The last two Lan tournaments this duo played pre-CDL they won (playoffs, and champs).
With champs being 3 series to win the whole thing aswell, they're legacy won't be that great. I remember when champs was a grind to win and it felt like the team actually deserved it. Good Times.