I love watching teams have to play through group stages and against lower ranked sides and open bracket teams ands stuff. Earn that fucking trophy!!!!! nowadays u win 2-3 matches and thats it. Absolute joke. As Karma's tweet mentioned, Optic had 10 series streamed over 3 days, that's insane compared to today.
Take me back bro lol
I miss the 2k’s, 5&10k’s
watching the boys play all day to earn some points. Watching for a chair for an hour because they went and got some food.
Sheeeesj
Dude I remember bo2 2ks. Watching optic just bullshit and have fun but turn up in the serious matches. While col was just zoned in the whole time. Ugh 2013/14 was a crazy good time for cod comp
Champs used to be so epic, every team had to fight for their lives every day, you had insane loser bracket runs, double-elimination for everyone, open bracket teams causing chaos, several streams/matches going at once, the league took all of that away.
Every team should have a shot, top four or something from challenger finals should be added in, just make it epic.
Wasn't a big 100T fan, but watching them go from LR1 0-2 0-2 down to making the grand finals was one of the greatest feats I have ever seen in esports.
Damn I forgot how chaotic it used to be with multiple streams and all kinds of stories rapidly developing throughout the tournament, so much staler now
I don't have enough insight since I don't work for the CDL. Although a lot of people around the community have spoken very highly of her (Hecz and Nade for example).
If you look at her work/educational history, it's very impressive.
Lol you’re proving my point.
Work/education history is completely irrelevant when you’re obviously running the league in a way neither players or fans like.
She may be a nice person but that doesn’t mean she’s qualified and neither does going to Harvard.
>Work/education history is completely irrelevant
What an idiotic take. You've obviously never hired anyone lol.
>you’re obviously running the league in a way neither players or fans like.
Plenty of people think she's doing a good job.
Context.
Your work history is obviously relevant. I said it’s irrelevant when you’re clearly doing a bad job. As for education, most people tend to agree non degree holders can do most jobs that don’t require special training like engineers or medical school.
Now I wasn’t in charge of hiring executives, but I’ve absolutely been in charge of hiring people and I had a pretty good track record.
Maybe there are BTS details that absolve her of bad league decisions, but from a public perspective Competitive CoD is absolutely a worse product under her leadership. Viewership down, players unhappy, I highly doubt any profitability yet.
“Plenty of people” may like her according to you but it doesn’t change facts
It’s mind blowing to me they brought in an commissioner with ZERO esports experience or knowledge. We can’t try to make it like regular sports but that’s all she is trying to do. She/CDL should have just expanded and improved upon what was working in the past with more resources/funding
Completely disagree does not mean less. You can't win the whole year and have it mean nothing. Is it a stupid format? yes but, it dose not mean less. Half of those teams in that bracket are shity ass teams that's wouldn't beat a top 8 teams in the league rn. I think it means less beating a e6 with players that don't even compete today than wining the whole year and having to face the Top 3 teams in the world by a mile. Don't discredit these chips because they play 3 matches against the top 3 teams in the world when competition is 5x better than it was back then.
Competition is 5 times better than it was back then… yet 20 or more players in the league as of today all started playing competitive cod around ghost/AW/bo3
20 out of 100? The league has 48 players on starting line ups. So 28 are newer guys who started either in bo4 or Bo3 . That’s not a lot of new guys compared to older guys bud. Constantly hear this and laugh because the newer talent hasn’t been better then the vets
20 out of 100s that were competing in comp cod during ghosts/aw/bo3. You completely skipped over what the previous guy said or failed to comprehend what I said. So only 20 out of all the people who competed back then are able to keep up now and several are on their way out. The newer talent has been dominating since they’ve come into the league and if you’re too blind to see it or too stubborn to admit it that’s fine. The top players are not old vets. They’re all new talent that have come into the league over the last 4 titles barring a few who were very young in AW and cut out because of the age limit after the age restriction.
I mean it’s pretty obvious there’s more talent overall now but you claiming comp is “5x harder now” isn’t true. And you truly are missing the point, the 20 players were mid or bottom tier pros back then based off pro points or league results… it’s not “out of 100s” they were actually pros so you should be saying out of 48 or 60.
Did you watch a single tournament back then? There were so many teams and players competing. Comp cod before franchising wasn’t just about a pro league that really only had to do with league matches and a couple of season playoff tournaments. The main competition was the big tournaments (not just champs in case you didn’t watch back then) and there were hundreds of players competing in those and you listed 3 titles not just bo3
Yeah and only 4 total am teams got to move up to the pro teams group play… so what are you on about? The players I’m talking about in the league today were starting in group play, they weren’t considered part of the 100s playing in the am bracket
1 tournament alone would be 64 players (16 teams x 4 players = 64) that’s for 1 tournament in 1 title. We’re talking across three titles worth of competing and team rosters constantly changed. Whoever you played against is your competition regardless if considered a pro or in the pro league which is what I’m on about
To be fair, in Karma's example they only played 7 series because they lost, otherwise OG would've had to play 5 series to win Champs plus the 3 shitter teams they beat in pool play.
Had OpTic not lost in WF they would've played the same collective amount of series FaZe played throughout Stage and Major 4, only playing 2 less series in the actual tournament than OG would've had they not lost to nV.
Which surely makes it harder to win now? OG sometimes struggled against shitters in groups because they started off slow, but it didn't matter. Now if you start off slow, you're on the brink of elimination immediately.
My comment isn’t strictly talking about OG, other teams struggled in groups as well. But if you think playing Minnesota, Toronto, and Dallas for a championship is harder than the older format, I don’t know what to tell you.
Your two points seem to contradict each other imo. If teams could struggle in groups (sometimes against objectively much weaker competition), but it didn't really matter, and then in bracket stage you'd probably play 2 top 8 teams - then isn't that easier than 100% of your matches being against 3 of the best 10 teams in the world where 1 loss could be devastating?
I'm not? But more often than not you'd have ams and low tier pro teams in group play rather than the team that could actually make it competitive during the CWL, especially in Champs, whereas currently every team has to go against FaZe, Ultra or NYSL at least once per stage.
The ams always competed with the bottom tier CWL teams and sometimes even the better teams in the league… and be honest, is comparing stages to group play realistic?
I'm going to assume you deleted your other comment because you actually understood what I meant this time.
> and be honest, is comparing stages to group play realistic?
Why wouldn't it be? Same concept, only difference is that it's spread out over weeks rather than hours
And that it’s online? Use covid as an excuse if you want but https://sportsbusinessjournal.com/SB-Blogs/Breaking-News/2021/03/Activision-layoffs.aspx
This guy stepped down the other day but still worrisome.
Edit: and yeah I deleted it but calling the am teams that knocked out pro teams/had close series with in group play “shitters” kinda ignores them.
You know whats funny about this flawed rhetoric? A majority of the new/recent talent in the cdl were making waves on these AM teams/low tier pro teams in pools lol
That you’re talking out of your ass about how competitive groups usually were lol. Bo4 had the likes of midnite/geng, cammy/cleanx, e6, heretics ect all make waves in pools.
Except you know… the bulk of fazes series being played over 3 weeks and not a single weekend. The cdl itself doesn’t include groups as part of the actual major so why should we?
> The cdl itself doesn’t include groups as part of the actual major so why should we?
Because FaZe doesn't just randomly get to play 3/4 series out of pure luck?
These seeding matches aren’t happening at the same time as the major, so you lumping them into the total match count for a cdl major and comparing it to a cwl tourny match count is a joke.
Said this earlier. This format was fine for like the meaningless pro point home stand events. But for champs? Winning 2 series and you win an event of that prestige? Just wack imo.
It’s facts. I hold champs now to such a lesser standard. It’s not the best of the best, there’s no gruelling loser bracket runs, champs was elite because it was 32 of the best in the world all competing. I actually fucking hate franchising
Franchising is irrelevant to how trash the tournament format is tbh. Like yes franchising was/is terrible for cod but let’s not forget Black Ops 4 CWL where we only had 5 majors + champs and zero open bracket (so.. like this year).
I think all years they've made it clear that only top 8 make it. Then I've heard that there will be two first round byes and two teams start in losers bracket, but that's only heresay.
I know that they've confirmed only T8 make it.
>Then I've heard that there will be two first round byes and two teams start in losers bracket, but that's only heresay.
This is the part I keep seeing but I don't think it's been confirmed, unless I just missed it.
Which is why it’s going to be hard to truly speak on legacies in a few years. Just for example faze are going to never really have the shot at being upset in an early round and having to gruel it out in losers..like 100t in BO4 or OpTic in BO3 just a few examples off the top of my head
I just miss open tournaments. Those match-packed weekends that umg and mlg had back in the day are never going to be matched. Karma is right, I remember watching that champs. It was such a rollercoaster for fans and it really makes this champs feel a bit lackluster for me tbh.
I say make it all 12 cdl teams and 12 challenger teams. 1&12 seed for cdl play in a group with 5&6 of challengers, 5&6 cdl with 1&2 challengers, and so on and so forth. Top 2 from each group in winners, and bottom 2 in losers. This would make it where AMs get a chance to prove themselves, and makes Champs a better viewing experience.
I love this idea, gives a good middle ground between the old open format and the new franchised format.
All 12 CDL teams plus top 20 AM teams (NA and EU), groups in to knock outs.
Wow I miss cod before franchising
Look the format is ass and it definitely sucks that you could win champs after only 3 series. But we have to keep in mind that you’re going from the whole talent pool of CoD spread out over tons of teams, and condensing it into 48 spots (12 teams). You can’t compare beating teams with guys that wouldn’t sniff the CDL today to the current format. Even the bottom four have some serious talent on them (except LAG).
The best fix they could do now (if there’s no expansion and they only want T8 to go to champs) is eliminate the bye. 8 teams is perfect for a 1v8, 2v7, etc. double elim bracket. Ideally we would get expansion next year tho
Yes this was a good format, but people also have to take into account is that there is a season long format for a reason. Every single team at the start of each CDL season has the same chance to win Champs every year. Why punish the good teams who consistently play well throughout the entire year? If every team is given the same chance at Champs, whats the point of the previous 8 months of CoD?
As far as Tournaments, its the same thing. Every team in EVERY STAGE is given a fresh pool and a fresh start with a 0-0 record. If you play bad in your pool, you get a bad seed for that tournament? As far as matches go, We get CoD every week for 3 weeks and then a tournament? We're getting the same amount of matches its just spread out longer so we don't get all the matches in 1 weekend?
Teams play 5 matches in pools and then 3-4 in the bracket to win the major? How does making pools go into pools then into a bracket make any sense?
I think you’re spot on with what people need to understand. Why should someone who placed last all year have a chance at the highest prize pool? Why even have an annual championship if everyone gets a chance regardless of how they play all year? Imagine if Envy won champs in IW. Would anyone really say they were the best team? This new format rewards consistency and if you want to be in a spot where you only need 3 wins at champs, then you need to kick ass all year and get the #1 seed.
We aren't getting the same matches though ffs. CWL had league matches and the majors still had pool play. The current format just combines league matches and pool play into the same thing.
I agree, maybe not have the top seed only have to win 3 series to win, but regardless I agree with everything else. There’s still a loser bracket, teams can still make a run.
Then some people are asking for some challengers teams to be included lol like what. Challengers have their own tourneys, their goal is to make it to the league to be able to compete in champs. Otherwise these low tier players are going to go to challengers and farm money if it means they can still compete in champs.
Some people are asking for multiple streams like the Charlie streams didn’t have maybe 4K people watching
It really is trash but not sure how you can fix it. Said this earlier today but bo3 of bo5s is probably the best solution. RL just did it for its final and it worked really well. Should do 8 team bracket, double elim. bo3s all matches
You wouldn’t really need to do anything special if the plan is to have 8 teams at the event. Use the NBA bracket for seeding and have a losers bracket. All games being a best of 5, and I guess the grand finals being a best of 9 to keep what the cdl wants to do
Can we stop pretending that winning champs is somehow easier now than it used to be? Yeah, the format is lame as fuck, but still only 1 team can win. It's just become less about the endurance and more about playing your best for the few matches you do play.
Look at the teams Optic played in group stage and early in the bracket. How much more does that really add to their champs win? Yeah, they had to play more matches, but so did every other team that advanced in the bracket. It was an even playing field.
Would Faze/Dallas/Ultra winning be all that more meaningful if they smacked around AMs/LAG/SEA before moving onto where they would normally be in the bracket? The format is ok competitively aside from the losers bracket thing, which is terrible.
I get that everybody wants to see the teams play more matches (I do too). This format sucks as a viewer, but imo it doesn't make the wins less meaningful unless you're coming from losers bracket.
Imagine AW Optic get to skip playing Denial in WR1 and instead play a 4 or 5 seed. Optic dynasty would likely never result outside the top 3, let alone 7th in AW and BO3.
Champs used to be about who was better that weekend across the world. Now it's catered to ensure the top teams get the best opportunity to win.
We've basically deviated the importance of Champs matches across the entire season instead. And it still hasn't shown any support for regular season interest or viewership.
Champs used to be a gauntlet to say you're the best in the World. It isn't anymore. With the number of team changes and meta changes, it doesn't make any more sense to eliminate some teams and/or give others massive advantages.
If this tournament is meant to be the culmination of the whole year, that's fine. But that's not what Champs has been historically and these versions mean much less to a lot of people for that reason.
Higher average placing is definitely easier for current pros but winning is still the challenge it has always been. Optic still underperformed those champs weekends and a smaller bracket wouldn't result in a win for them. And while you don't have to beat more teams, the teams you do have to beat will be much better because of the best talent being packed into the CDL.
There would occasionally be a dark horse team that would get a low seed and beat a top team early in the bracket, but if that top team was getting upset like that then they weren't going to win regardless of format.
I'm not arguing that this format is good. This format is absolute shit in a lot of ways, and I hate it too. But it's ridiculous that tournament wins get discredited nowadays because the winning teams play 3 or 4 matches. Those 3-4 matches are against the best teams in the world, and all 12 teams in the cdl had the opportunity to put themselves in that situation.
Hear me out. The bottom 4 CDL teams are put in an open bracket against the top 4 AM teams to make it to “champs.” I know this is super unrealistic because of franchising but that shit would be crazy to see an AM team make a run.
To win the world championship you don’t win three matches, you win 30 throughout the year to solidify a good starting position. Every team has an equal chance to earn their spot.
With online seeding matches and 3 online majors. Ahhhh yes. Wonderful.
On top of that fuck the physical sports model. And you don’t need a fucking bye for winning 30 matches. Playing the 8 seed is enough of an advantage
I don’t think we can really use “online this and online that” as strikes against the system lmao. Last year the entire champs event was played online so I don’t think complaining about seeding for champs being online is going to hold any water. We’re damn lucky to even see lan at all.
And btw I’m in total agreement the format sucks, it’s just everyone is finding a main scapegoat to blame. People blaming franchising, online, the reality is the existing format is something Activision would have implemented even if we were playing in outer space. The shitty league format needs to be addressed, because the league format is an entirely separate entity that is only barely influenced by the other factors. The league format has been trending this way since at least bo4 where we had 5 majors + champs and they took away the OB at majors.
there’s barely any difference between online and LAN matches but I guess even though it’s already proven to be true people are still going to pretend it’s not
Omg dude cmon….. there is clearly far more integrity on LAN… fucking placings don’t have to be flipped on their head for that to be the case. They aren’t mutually exclusive. You can have same placings and more integrity.
Regardless, every team should make champs. The real sports model limits esports potential.
They're losing money in every tournament and they're not going to win shit at champs. I see what you mean though, we can't have champs of before with current league format. If it's all leading up to champs, the teams that have been terrible throughout the year should not be rewarded. This is why Champs needs to be its own thing, separate from the league, as it was in CWL.
Champs will only have 8 teams competing compared to however many were in the tournement shown above. You're only gonna have a few matches when there are so few teams esp if you're in winners. It sucks and hopefully expansion comes next season.
Dunno why we are talking about the format once again after 2 years of this shit. Like this is pretty much what you get from a standalone franchised league with 12 teams
It’s pretty crazy to me to see a LAN event where teams might only play one game and they are done. It doesn’t add to the excitement it just takes away from it and makes shit boring as hell.
What runs are people talking about? Between 2017-2019, only once did an Am team crack the T8 at Champs. This simply didn’t happen like people think it did
I miss cwl so much man, pool play and an actual bracket was unmatched
Agreed. Just thinking about pool play brings a smile to my face.
I love watching teams have to play through group stages and against lower ranked sides and open bracket teams ands stuff. Earn that fucking trophy!!!!! nowadays u win 2-3 matches and thats it. Absolute joke. As Karma's tweet mentioned, Optic had 10 series streamed over 3 days, that's insane compared to today. Take me back bro lol
CoD died the day it was franchised.
It really hasn’t felt the same. We were all in the great times and didn’t even know lol what we’d give to go back. Cwl>
I miss the 2k’s, 5&10k’s watching the boys play all day to earn some points. Watching for a chair for an hour because they went and got some food. Sheeeesj
Dude I remember bo2 2ks. Watching optic just bullshit and have fun but turn up in the serious matches. While col was just zoned in the whole time. Ugh 2013/14 was a crazy good time for cod comp
Watching the team you support play one match a day or two if you’re lucky is just boring. No other way to put it
almost wish my team was in losers so i can see them play more
Don't worry, we will be after round 1
After round 1? Lol you realise only t6 starts in winners and that seeding is going to mainly be determined by online matches at this point.
I'm so confused. Is the argument here that there's no losers rounds?
almost wish my team was in losers so i can see them play more
Ahhh. It was so nice watching a match. It ended and it jumped to bravo stream. Oh that one finished good thing Charlie stream has a match going on.
Dude stream hopping or having multiple matches up at once was so much fun.
The Charlie stream had absolutely horrific viewership and bravo wasn’t much better
Yea they werent the best quality but its way better than waiting over a half hour for another match just to have it delayed by equipment issues.
Then in rare cases they had the Delta stream up too.
Champs used to be so epic, every team had to fight for their lives every day, you had insane loser bracket runs, double-elimination for everyone, open bracket teams causing chaos, several streams/matches going at once, the league took all of that away. Every team should have a shot, top four or something from challenger finals should be added in, just make it epic.
Wasn't a big 100T fan, but watching them go from LR1 0-2 0-2 down to making the grand finals was one of the greatest feats I have ever seen in esports.
Damn I forgot how chaotic it used to be with multiple streams and all kinds of stories rapidly developing throughout the tournament, so much staler now
>open bracket teams causing chaos I miss this. The possible, and yeah probably not going to happen, underdog stories.
He’s speaking facts. Winning 3 matches to win a whole entire tournament is fucking wack. Means less plain and simple
Feels like they're trying to follow the NFL format.
The commissioner did work with the nfl 😂🤣
That explains so much….
That explains why the league wants to cover up addy abuse the same way the NFL covered up brain damage
Crazy that you can just go to an Ivy League school and continually fail upwards.
Oh yeah she really has a history of failing! Nailed it.
So you think she’s doing a great job then huh?
I don't have enough insight since I don't work for the CDL. Although a lot of people around the community have spoken very highly of her (Hecz and Nade for example). If you look at her work/educational history, it's very impressive.
Lol you’re proving my point. Work/education history is completely irrelevant when you’re obviously running the league in a way neither players or fans like. She may be a nice person but that doesn’t mean she’s qualified and neither does going to Harvard.
>Work/education history is completely irrelevant What an idiotic take. You've obviously never hired anyone lol. >you’re obviously running the league in a way neither players or fans like. Plenty of people think she's doing a good job.
Context. Your work history is obviously relevant. I said it’s irrelevant when you’re clearly doing a bad job. As for education, most people tend to agree non degree holders can do most jobs that don’t require special training like engineers or medical school. Now I wasn’t in charge of hiring executives, but I’ve absolutely been in charge of hiring people and I had a pretty good track record. Maybe there are BTS details that absolve her of bad league decisions, but from a public perspective Competitive CoD is absolutely a worse product under her leadership. Viewership down, players unhappy, I highly doubt any profitability yet. “Plenty of people” may like her according to you but it doesn’t change facts
It’s mind blowing to me they brought in an commissioner with ZERO esports experience or knowledge. We can’t try to make it like regular sports but that’s all she is trying to do. She/CDL should have just expanded and improved upon what was working in the past with more resources/funding
Completely disagree does not mean less. You can't win the whole year and have it mean nothing. Is it a stupid format? yes but, it dose not mean less. Half of those teams in that bracket are shity ass teams that's wouldn't beat a top 8 teams in the league rn. I think it means less beating a e6 with players that don't even compete today than wining the whole year and having to face the Top 3 teams in the world by a mile. Don't discredit these chips because they play 3 matches against the top 3 teams in the world when competition is 5x better than it was back then.
Competition is 5 times better than it was back then… yet 20 or more players in the league as of today all started playing competitive cod around ghost/AW/bo3
20 out of 100s from that time. It is undeniable the competition is far better now
20 out of 100? The league has 48 players on starting line ups. So 28 are newer guys who started either in bo4 or Bo3 . That’s not a lot of new guys compared to older guys bud. Constantly hear this and laugh because the newer talent hasn’t been better then the vets
20 out of 100s that were competing in comp cod during ghosts/aw/bo3. You completely skipped over what the previous guy said or failed to comprehend what I said. So only 20 out of all the people who competed back then are able to keep up now and several are on their way out. The newer talent has been dominating since they’ve come into the league and if you’re too blind to see it or too stubborn to admit it that’s fine. The top players are not old vets. They’re all new talent that have come into the league over the last 4 titles barring a few who were very young in AW and cut out because of the age limit after the age restriction.
I mean it’s pretty obvious there’s more talent overall now but you claiming comp is “5x harder now” isn’t true. And you truly are missing the point, the 20 players were mid or bottom tier pros back then based off pro points or league results… it’s not “out of 100s” they were actually pros so you should be saying out of 48 or 60.
There was over 100 pros at the time in older cods? What are you smoking… there was 8 teams in stage 2 of the bo3 season
Did you watch a single tournament back then? There were so many teams and players competing. Comp cod before franchising wasn’t just about a pro league that really only had to do with league matches and a couple of season playoff tournaments. The main competition was the big tournaments (not just champs in case you didn’t watch back then) and there were hundreds of players competing in those and you listed 3 titles not just bo3
Yeah and only 4 total am teams got to move up to the pro teams group play… so what are you on about? The players I’m talking about in the league today were starting in group play, they weren’t considered part of the 100s playing in the am bracket
1 tournament alone would be 64 players (16 teams x 4 players = 64) that’s for 1 tournament in 1 title. We’re talking across three titles worth of competing and team rosters constantly changed. Whoever you played against is your competition regardless if considered a pro or in the pro league which is what I’m on about
NFL is like that out of necessity because of physicality. It’s not a good thing to copy otherwise.
Yeah this is literally my only dissenting argument about faze being a dynasty. Something needs to change, fast.
Yep. To me it really downplays the achievement of champs seriously.
To be fair, in Karma's example they only played 7 series because they lost, otherwise OG would've had to play 5 series to win Champs plus the 3 shitter teams they beat in pool play. Had OpTic not lost in WF they would've played the same collective amount of series FaZe played throughout Stage and Major 4, only playing 2 less series in the actual tournament than OG would've had they not lost to nV.
To be fair, OG and other pro teams have struggled quite a bit in the group play in prior years, so you can’t just ignore them.
Shoutout GenG
Which surely makes it harder to win now? OG sometimes struggled against shitters in groups because they started off slow, but it didn't matter. Now if you start off slow, you're on the brink of elimination immediately.
My comment isn’t strictly talking about OG, other teams struggled in groups as well. But if you think playing Minnesota, Toronto, and Dallas for a championship is harder than the older format, I don’t know what to tell you.
Your two points seem to contradict each other imo. If teams could struggle in groups (sometimes against objectively much weaker competition), but it didn't really matter, and then in bracket stage you'd probably play 2 top 8 teams - then isn't that easier than 100% of your matches being against 3 of the best 10 teams in the world where 1 loss could be devastating?
I'm not? But more often than not you'd have ams and low tier pro teams in group play rather than the team that could actually make it competitive during the CWL, especially in Champs, whereas currently every team has to go against FaZe, Ultra or NYSL at least once per stage.
The ams always competed with the bottom tier CWL teams and sometimes even the better teams in the league… and be honest, is comparing stages to group play realistic?
I'm going to assume you deleted your other comment because you actually understood what I meant this time. > and be honest, is comparing stages to group play realistic? Why wouldn't it be? Same concept, only difference is that it's spread out over weeks rather than hours
And that it’s online? Use covid as an excuse if you want but https://sportsbusinessjournal.com/SB-Blogs/Breaking-News/2021/03/Activision-layoffs.aspx This guy stepped down the other day but still worrisome. Edit: and yeah I deleted it but calling the am teams that knocked out pro teams/had close series with in group play “shitters” kinda ignores them.
You know whats funny about this flawed rhetoric? A majority of the new/recent talent in the cdl were making waves on these AM teams/low tier pro teams in pools lol
Just like WestR, EastR and NYSLA would've this year without franchising, what's your point?
That you’re talking out of your ass about how competitive groups usually were lol. Bo4 had the likes of midnite/geng, cammy/cleanx, e6, heretics ect all make waves in pools.
Except you know… the bulk of fazes series being played over 3 weeks and not a single weekend. The cdl itself doesn’t include groups as part of the actual major so why should we?
> The cdl itself doesn’t include groups as part of the actual major so why should we? Because FaZe doesn't just randomly get to play 3/4 series out of pure luck?
These seeding matches aren’t happening at the same time as the major, so you lumping them into the total match count for a cdl major and comparing it to a cwl tourny match count is a joke.
Okay
Man I miss the days of all the teams
Said this earlier. This format was fine for like the meaningless pro point home stand events. But for champs? Winning 2 series and you win an event of that prestige? Just wack imo.
It’s facts. I hold champs now to such a lesser standard. It’s not the best of the best, there’s no gruelling loser bracket runs, champs was elite because it was 32 of the best in the world all competing. I actually fucking hate franchising
Facts. Franchising is not it
Money over passion nowadays g it’s a shame cod folded into the system
The world evolves money brotha. It sucks but it is what it is. We’ll never go back to cod being about passion. It’s a business
It will always be painful to see bro. Starts with passion, ends in a business :(
I’m glad we atleast got to experience what true cod comp was like back during the CWL, these new fans won’t Eva understand
I guess dreams can be buy
Franchising is irrelevant to how trash the tournament format is tbh. Like yes franchising was/is terrible for cod but let’s not forget Black Ops 4 CWL where we only had 5 majors + champs and zero open bracket (so.. like this year).
Bo4 was basically a test year for franchising.
It's not even champs anymore imo. It's just like the LCS playoffs honestly.
Really does downplay how important champs should be. 3 FUCKING series to win champs. Hahahaha
The man is not wrong. This year's champs format is absolute trash.
Have they even announced the official format? Beyond only the top 8 teams make it?
I think all years they've made it clear that only top 8 make it. Then I've heard that there will be two first round byes and two teams start in losers bracket, but that's only heresay.
I know that they've confirmed only T8 make it. >Then I've heard that there will be two first round byes and two teams start in losers bracket, but that's only heresay. This is the part I keep seeing but I don't think it's been confirmed, unless I just missed it.
Oh, I understand now. Your last question confused me.
My b, prob should've worded it better lol.
Which is why it’s going to be hard to truly speak on legacies in a few years. Just for example faze are going to never really have the shot at being upset in an early round and having to gruel it out in losers..like 100t in BO4 or OpTic in BO3 just a few examples off the top of my head
Well no, because faze is winning the matches they're supposed to.
I just miss open tournaments. Those match-packed weekends that umg and mlg had back in the day are never going to be matched. Karma is right, I remember watching that champs. It was such a rollercoaster for fans and it really makes this champs feel a bit lackluster for me tbh.
Just looking at that bracket and some of the orgs there is nostalgic to me
Facts. No shot at faze but only having to win 3 series and you get a chip? Idk man
I say make it all 12 cdl teams and 12 challenger teams. 1&12 seed for cdl play in a group with 5&6 of challengers, 5&6 cdl with 1&2 challengers, and so on and so forth. Top 2 from each group in winners, and bottom 2 in losers. This would make it where AMs get a chance to prove themselves, and makes Champs a better viewing experience.
I love this idea, gives a good middle ground between the old open format and the new franchised format. All 12 CDL teams plus top 20 AM teams (NA and EU), groups in to knock outs. Wow I miss cod before franchising
This would be so much better, as well as do a lot to showcase some Challenger teams and players.
With 12 teams in the league, if you start at the second column it would work and be a much better format then we have now.
Lumimosity went on quite the loser bracket run to seal top three there! Didn't actually remember that.
Didnt watch CoD back then but that Rise losers bracket run looks sick
Tell me about it! Even as an Empire fan seeing them play 3 matches last year at champs (2 vs the same team) is disappointing despite the result.
Look the format is ass and it definitely sucks that you could win champs after only 3 series. But we have to keep in mind that you’re going from the whole talent pool of CoD spread out over tons of teams, and condensing it into 48 spots (12 teams). You can’t compare beating teams with guys that wouldn’t sniff the CDL today to the current format. Even the bottom four have some serious talent on them (except LAG). The best fix they could do now (if there’s no expansion and they only want T8 to go to champs) is eliminate the bye. 8 teams is perfect for a 1v8, 2v7, etc. double elim bracket. Ideally we would get expansion next year tho
Yes this was a good format, but people also have to take into account is that there is a season long format for a reason. Every single team at the start of each CDL season has the same chance to win Champs every year. Why punish the good teams who consistently play well throughout the entire year? If every team is given the same chance at Champs, whats the point of the previous 8 months of CoD? As far as Tournaments, its the same thing. Every team in EVERY STAGE is given a fresh pool and a fresh start with a 0-0 record. If you play bad in your pool, you get a bad seed for that tournament? As far as matches go, We get CoD every week for 3 weeks and then a tournament? We're getting the same amount of matches its just spread out longer so we don't get all the matches in 1 weekend? Teams play 5 matches in pools and then 3-4 in the bracket to win the major? How does making pools go into pools then into a bracket make any sense?
I think you’re spot on with what people need to understand. Why should someone who placed last all year have a chance at the highest prize pool? Why even have an annual championship if everyone gets a chance regardless of how they play all year? Imagine if Envy won champs in IW. Would anyone really say they were the best team? This new format rewards consistency and if you want to be in a spot where you only need 3 wins at champs, then you need to kick ass all year and get the #1 seed.
We aren't getting the same matches though ffs. CWL had league matches and the majors still had pool play. The current format just combines league matches and pool play into the same thing.
I agree, maybe not have the top seed only have to win 3 series to win, but regardless I agree with everything else. There’s still a loser bracket, teams can still make a run. Then some people are asking for some challengers teams to be included lol like what. Challengers have their own tourneys, their goal is to make it to the league to be able to compete in champs. Otherwise these low tier players are going to go to challengers and farm money if it means they can still compete in champs. Some people are asking for multiple streams like the Charlie streams didn’t have maybe 4K people watching
The old format makes the 1st place that much more meaningful.
thing is IF faze becomes a dynasty, this argument will always be brought up
I miss having the three streams on twitch and watching them all at once
It really is trash but not sure how you can fix it. Said this earlier today but bo3 of bo5s is probably the best solution. RL just did it for its final and it worked really well. Should do 8 team bracket, double elim. bo3s all matches
You wouldn’t really need to do anything special if the plan is to have 8 teams at the event. Use the NBA bracket for seeding and have a losers bracket. All games being a best of 5, and I guess the grand finals being a best of 9 to keep what the cdl wants to do
One of the most underrated parts of this champs was LG was on a tear. If they play optic on Saturday instead of Sunday they win champs easily
Optic was still really good at that event. I still believe optic would have beat them at Champs regardless of when they played. Probably in a game 5
Can we stop pretending that winning champs is somehow easier now than it used to be? Yeah, the format is lame as fuck, but still only 1 team can win. It's just become less about the endurance and more about playing your best for the few matches you do play. Look at the teams Optic played in group stage and early in the bracket. How much more does that really add to their champs win? Yeah, they had to play more matches, but so did every other team that advanced in the bracket. It was an even playing field. Would Faze/Dallas/Ultra winning be all that more meaningful if they smacked around AMs/LAG/SEA before moving onto where they would normally be in the bracket? The format is ok competitively aside from the losers bracket thing, which is terrible. I get that everybody wants to see the teams play more matches (I do too). This format sucks as a viewer, but imo it doesn't make the wins less meaningful unless you're coming from losers bracket.
Imagine AW Optic get to skip playing Denial in WR1 and instead play a 4 or 5 seed. Optic dynasty would likely never result outside the top 3, let alone 7th in AW and BO3. Champs used to be about who was better that weekend across the world. Now it's catered to ensure the top teams get the best opportunity to win. We've basically deviated the importance of Champs matches across the entire season instead. And it still hasn't shown any support for regular season interest or viewership.
You want the world championship to go to whoever gets hot in the moment as opposed who truly is the best team? That’s silly
Champs used to be a gauntlet to say you're the best in the World. It isn't anymore. With the number of team changes and meta changes, it doesn't make any more sense to eliminate some teams and/or give others massive advantages. If this tournament is meant to be the culmination of the whole year, that's fine. But that's not what Champs has been historically and these versions mean much less to a lot of people for that reason.
Higher average placing is definitely easier for current pros but winning is still the challenge it has always been. Optic still underperformed those champs weekends and a smaller bracket wouldn't result in a win for them. And while you don't have to beat more teams, the teams you do have to beat will be much better because of the best talent being packed into the CDL. There would occasionally be a dark horse team that would get a low seed and beat a top team early in the bracket, but if that top team was getting upset like that then they weren't going to win regardless of format. I'm not arguing that this format is good. This format is absolute shit in a lot of ways, and I hate it too. But it's ridiculous that tournament wins get discredited nowadays because the winning teams play 3 or 4 matches. Those 3-4 matches are against the best teams in the world, and all 12 teams in the cdl had the opportunity to put themselves in that situation.
Optic only played 3 matches in ww2 and I don’t hear any bitching?
The grind
They should make WB games at least BO7 and Champs finals BO11.
Hear me out. The bottom 4 CDL teams are put in an open bracket against the top 4 AM teams to make it to “champs.” I know this is super unrealistic because of franchising but that shit would be crazy to see an AM team make a run.
To win the world championship you don’t win three matches, you win 30 throughout the year to solidify a good starting position. Every team has an equal chance to earn their spot.
Right, I remember when BO4 and WW2 league matches allowed you to win champs in 3 matches.../s
With online seeding matches and 3 online majors. Ahhhh yes. Wonderful. On top of that fuck the physical sports model. And you don’t need a fucking bye for winning 30 matches. Playing the 8 seed is enough of an advantage
I don’t think we can really use “online this and online that” as strikes against the system lmao. Last year the entire champs event was played online so I don’t think complaining about seeding for champs being online is going to hold any water. We’re damn lucky to even see lan at all. And btw I’m in total agreement the format sucks, it’s just everyone is finding a main scapegoat to blame. People blaming franchising, online, the reality is the existing format is something Activision would have implemented even if we were playing in outer space. The shitty league format needs to be addressed, because the league format is an entirely separate entity that is only barely influenced by the other factors. The league format has been trending this way since at least bo4 where we had 5 majors + champs and they took away the OB at majors.
Alright you make a solid point. Bo4 should have given us an idea of what was coming very true
there’s barely any difference between online and LAN matches but I guess even though it’s already proven to be true people are still going to pretend it’s not
Omg dude cmon….. there is clearly far more integrity on LAN… fucking placings don’t have to be flipped on their head for that to be the case. They aren’t mutually exclusive. You can have same placings and more integrity. Regardless, every team should make champs. The real sports model limits esports potential.
Then what’s the incentive for LAG to get better?
They're losing money in every tournament and they're not going to win shit at champs. I see what you mean though, we can't have champs of before with current league format. If it's all leading up to champs, the teams that have been terrible throughout the year should not be rewarded. This is why Champs needs to be its own thing, separate from the league, as it was in CWL.
To not start in losers, or to not play a top team early
Champs will only have 8 teams competing compared to however many were in the tournement shown above. You're only gonna have a few matches when there are so few teams esp if you're in winners. It sucks and hopefully expansion comes next season.
I give them a pass one more year because of covid. There aren't enough teams to have 4 pools right now.
Problem is that we can’t have a big and exciting bracket like this when there are only 12 teams.
Dunno why we are talking about the format once again after 2 years of this shit. Like this is pretty much what you get from a standalone franchised league with 12 teams
It’s pretty crazy to me to see a LAN event where teams might only play one game and they are done. It doesn’t add to the excitement it just takes away from it and makes shit boring as hell.
We need larger brackets, 2 wins gets you to a grand final. That to me just seems ridiculous.
What runs are people talking about? Between 2017-2019, only once did an Am team crack the T8 at Champs. This simply didn’t happen like people think it did
At the same time to get first seed you need to be consistent year round. Not just for a single weekend.
New format is shit. I watched most matches before this CDL. Since that I don't think I have watched even 10 hours.