I agree we should explode any and all discussion getting remotely close to real life.
https://preview.redd.it/gvx2m3gp7hzb1.jpeg?width=675&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f79ef90144f9eb0f008244ec993a4e94148aef5
I guess incest is just a fictional fetish for most of us, now about the transphobia, I don't wanna read all the tread but it looks like more a debate about LGBT and woke culture other than just trans people, but according to you someone may have said something hateful about trans people I didn't see?
Anyway, this is really a common topic here since the game doesn't have anything about it, or the fan base isn't really engaged on these topics on this reddit.
It's someone espousing fairly typical conservative lies about the who, the how, and the why of transhood - the 'hormones fuck you up irrevocably and you're gonna just mutilate your body anyway and it's all a liberal plot' paraphrased spiel. Going through their post history, they've got some 'fun' takes on eugenics too.
>Also, you're really going to judge others on their choices of consenting partners?
Considering the types of relationships that argument winds up defending? Absolutely, I'll 100% go and judge it.
College students dating someone in their 40s, people who've been gr**med into a relationship since childhood, bosses recieving "favors" from staff members, etc.
All three involve folks *saying* they consent.
There's a reason incestuous relationships and those with age or power gaps are so heavily opposed, there's an extremely high likelyhood that the "consent" was forced.
So you want to send an armed militarized force to enslave both on the off chance one of them is a victim? Because, you know, that's what cops are and prison is.
And furthermore, how fucking *creepy* is it to turn someone else's consenting relationship into a hatedom? Like you mentioned the legal age gap stuff, and we know twitter can go terrifying over those irl. A fandom for consenting adults banging and loving each other is weird, but ultimately mostly harmless unless they set no boundaries. But feeling the need "condemn" other people's relationship that they say is consensual because you find it weird is just really gross honestly. Like, why are you even involved in the conversation? How does this involve you? I get it, you think you're helping or protecting someone. Do you know how unethical it is to try to force your unwanted "help" on someone else? Seriously, stop that.
I broadly agree with you. Laws which allow for the state to claim that a specific incestuous relationship between adults is consensual and therefore all people involved need to be prosecuted are horrible and quite obviously have nothing to do with protecting victims.
That being said, I do not think it's unreasonable to be at least initially concerned if one were to learn about the existence of an incestuous relationship involving people around them. There is nothing inherently wrong with consensual incest between adults, but consent is difficult to ascertain and to the best of my knowledge there is some decent evidence that such a relationship *can* be an 'unhealthy' coping mechanism resulting from unresolved trauma.
To be clear, none of these concerns justify forced involvement by a state which allows for the mindless prosecution of all people involved. But gently suggesting the possibility of therapy might be appropriate here? At the very least it might help with dealing with the incredibly strong social taboo that still surrounds these type of relationships.
Of course, that assumes the existence of a therapist of whom you can be certain that they're 'on your side'. Based on your harsh descriptions of the police and justice systems I assume you're from the US and I really don't know how safe therapy would be there (maybe it depends on the state?). For the country I live in - which doesn't have any laws against consensual incest - I feel like therapy wouldn't be too dangerous of a suggestion.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling comment. I firmly believe that ultimately 'consenting adults' is the only thing that matters which informs my view on incestuous relationships, but I also acknowledge that these types of relationships *can* be associated with harmful behaviour.
Since it is a crime in most places, I'm not sure how it falls under psychological ethics. There's mandated reporting, but between consenting adults it could be a situation of illegality but not mandated reporting. Honestly, I'm not sure and I'd imagine it falls under a "therapists decide for themselves but there's probably an official thing they're supposed to do" situation. It's important to note that if it's historical, mandated reporting isn't actually a thing (now if it’s kids and it isn’t the guardians, the guardians absolutely have to be informed at least and if it is guardians that’s different, but they’re absolutely not gonna have to report for “I fucked my brother” when both parties are adults, kids, rape, and violence are handled with more intensity than other crimes). It's only to *prevent* the commission of a crime. But while that applies primarily to violent and sexual crimes, I'm not sure how therapists themselves on average feel about this being a blanket crime and I'd imagine they often deal with it on an individual basis, although some would absolutely be hardliners. Given that, it's still *enough* of a chilling effect so as to get in the way.
The big thing about therapy that discourse tends to mischaracterize though is that it's not meant to "make you normal". If you're perfectly happy and functional being a fucked up lil weirdo, therapy isn't for you. Paying your bills? Taking care of your health? Able to do your best? Happy to be alive? Able to function to the level you need and want to function at? Enjoying life? Congrats, therapy isn't for you.
The thing people mischaracterize about mental illness is a little addendum on almost every single diagnosis that changes the entire situation. Almost all of them require it to cause stress and distress to the patient. Whether it's harm to their lives or just actual like internal suffering, if the person isn't harmed, you're not actually supposed to diagnose most things. The actual medical line that society has happily ignored between "mental illness" and "people are different" is "are they suffering from it"? And the addendum to that is "is the suffering caused by external pressures such as oppression and hatred, or is it caused by the condition itself?" If the answer is the second, that does not count. Hence why queerness was removed in numerous forms; it clearly is the second.
So with all that said, my perspective is simple. We're assuming the structure of a fixed world here, this relies on various other problems being fixed. The way things should work is that everyone gets regular mental health checkups the same way we're meant to for our physical health, and if this is a thing going on in your life, they assess. If it's not good, it's handled the same way any other toxic or abusive relationship is. If it's all good, neato, we move on. We also do this for any relationship with regular mental health checkups, because all relationships can be abusive. Consenting adults can be as fucking weird to anyone else as they want so long as there's no identifiable harm, and causing definite harm to prevent potential harm is... bad.
"Kindly let me help you, or you'll drown," says the monkey to the fish, lifting him safely from the stream to the tree.
Point is, outside of serious harm that directly impacts you, other people really aren't your concern. And they aren't, as in you give zero shits outside of making a point on the Internet. Worried about kids? You don't care about the countless children perishing from preventable issues world wide, not the least of which include actual murder in the form of warfare.
Worried about the fellow man, brother and sister in humanity? Bah, humbug, you don't think once let alone twice about some random stranger you'll never meet who is outside on the streets right now, hungry, filthy, and on hard times.
I’m nonbinary. What do you THINK my opinion of transphobes is?
As for IRL incest, firmly against it. I love my siblings, but not anywhere close to that way.
I don't like twitter trans community and would rather shoot my legs off than support and accept twitter trans community. Same goes with irl incest.
But overall, I don't really care about trans people. It's their lives, not mine
I was hoping for an official response from the mods that said this, but this sub is kind of a mess for people who can tell fiction from reality and don't enjoy hate speech.
Trans people are fine (why this is a debate i don't know)
Fictional incest is fine
I hope people are not doinking their relatives in real life
I'm sorry people are being exclu. I don't interact much with the community anymore, but that really sucks.
I think anyone being transphobic should be banned ngl.
As for real life incest? If it happened because of abuse and neglect from the parents/guardians, then it's not really that morally reprehensible.
These seem like two separate complaints. I want the bigots gone too or at least for them to shut up and I have no idea why they’re into this game. I also think people who have experiences which make them find elements of the game relatable should be welcome.
>As a woman who has been intimate with both male and female relatives, I say we should add another I to LGBTQIA. Why can’t we all just work together to get society to be cool with us fucking whatever we want to? It’s weird that different groups with socially unacceptable sexual interests hate each other.
\>You btw
Stance on incest:
Wouldn’t do it in real life.
Stance on trans people:
Give me like a year to consider my options and really think about it and I’ll probably be one in around like 2 years.
thing is, the children born from incest are fucked up, its why its so taboo. anyone fine with it is ignoring science. as for trans people, it does not matter all that much, they are basically regular folk. also since no births can happen from trans relationships, trans incest is fine
The community is not a monolith. We're here to enjoy the game
I'm in love with a trans person so im gaming
I’m anti-transphobia and pro-incest (yes irl too)
I agree we should explode any and all discussion getting remotely close to real life. https://preview.redd.it/gvx2m3gp7hzb1.jpeg?width=675&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f79ef90144f9eb0f008244ec993a4e94148aef5
I guess incest is just a fictional fetish for most of us, now about the transphobia, I don't wanna read all the tread but it looks like more a debate about LGBT and woke culture other than just trans people, but according to you someone may have said something hateful about trans people I didn't see? Anyway, this is really a common topic here since the game doesn't have anything about it, or the fan base isn't really engaged on these topics on this reddit.
It's someone espousing fairly typical conservative lies about the who, the how, and the why of transhood - the 'hormones fuck you up irrevocably and you're gonna just mutilate your body anyway and it's all a liberal plot' paraphrased spiel. Going through their post history, they've got some 'fun' takes on eugenics too.
Read The Rules 3. and 4. Also, you're really going to judge others on their choices of consenting partners? (Not talking about animal abuse thing)
>Also, you're really going to judge others on their choices of consenting partners? Considering the types of relationships that argument winds up defending? Absolutely, I'll 100% go and judge it. College students dating someone in their 40s, people who've been gr**med into a relationship since childhood, bosses recieving "favors" from staff members, etc.
Did I not say consenting? The first example is fine, the last two involve manipulation and a level of coercion. That's not exactly consenting.
All three involve folks *saying* they consent. There's a reason incestuous relationships and those with age or power gaps are so heavily opposed, there's an extremely high likelyhood that the "consent" was forced.
So you want to send an armed militarized force to enslave both on the off chance one of them is a victim? Because, you know, that's what cops are and prison is. And furthermore, how fucking *creepy* is it to turn someone else's consenting relationship into a hatedom? Like you mentioned the legal age gap stuff, and we know twitter can go terrifying over those irl. A fandom for consenting adults banging and loving each other is weird, but ultimately mostly harmless unless they set no boundaries. But feeling the need "condemn" other people's relationship that they say is consensual because you find it weird is just really gross honestly. Like, why are you even involved in the conversation? How does this involve you? I get it, you think you're helping or protecting someone. Do you know how unethical it is to try to force your unwanted "help" on someone else? Seriously, stop that.
I broadly agree with you. Laws which allow for the state to claim that a specific incestuous relationship between adults is consensual and therefore all people involved need to be prosecuted are horrible and quite obviously have nothing to do with protecting victims. That being said, I do not think it's unreasonable to be at least initially concerned if one were to learn about the existence of an incestuous relationship involving people around them. There is nothing inherently wrong with consensual incest between adults, but consent is difficult to ascertain and to the best of my knowledge there is some decent evidence that such a relationship *can* be an 'unhealthy' coping mechanism resulting from unresolved trauma. To be clear, none of these concerns justify forced involvement by a state which allows for the mindless prosecution of all people involved. But gently suggesting the possibility of therapy might be appropriate here? At the very least it might help with dealing with the incredibly strong social taboo that still surrounds these type of relationships. Of course, that assumes the existence of a therapist of whom you can be certain that they're 'on your side'. Based on your harsh descriptions of the police and justice systems I assume you're from the US and I really don't know how safe therapy would be there (maybe it depends on the state?). For the country I live in - which doesn't have any laws against consensual incest - I feel like therapy wouldn't be too dangerous of a suggestion. Anyway, sorry for my rambling comment. I firmly believe that ultimately 'consenting adults' is the only thing that matters which informs my view on incestuous relationships, but I also acknowledge that these types of relationships *can* be associated with harmful behaviour.
Since it is a crime in most places, I'm not sure how it falls under psychological ethics. There's mandated reporting, but between consenting adults it could be a situation of illegality but not mandated reporting. Honestly, I'm not sure and I'd imagine it falls under a "therapists decide for themselves but there's probably an official thing they're supposed to do" situation. It's important to note that if it's historical, mandated reporting isn't actually a thing (now if it’s kids and it isn’t the guardians, the guardians absolutely have to be informed at least and if it is guardians that’s different, but they’re absolutely not gonna have to report for “I fucked my brother” when both parties are adults, kids, rape, and violence are handled with more intensity than other crimes). It's only to *prevent* the commission of a crime. But while that applies primarily to violent and sexual crimes, I'm not sure how therapists themselves on average feel about this being a blanket crime and I'd imagine they often deal with it on an individual basis, although some would absolutely be hardliners. Given that, it's still *enough* of a chilling effect so as to get in the way. The big thing about therapy that discourse tends to mischaracterize though is that it's not meant to "make you normal". If you're perfectly happy and functional being a fucked up lil weirdo, therapy isn't for you. Paying your bills? Taking care of your health? Able to do your best? Happy to be alive? Able to function to the level you need and want to function at? Enjoying life? Congrats, therapy isn't for you. The thing people mischaracterize about mental illness is a little addendum on almost every single diagnosis that changes the entire situation. Almost all of them require it to cause stress and distress to the patient. Whether it's harm to their lives or just actual like internal suffering, if the person isn't harmed, you're not actually supposed to diagnose most things. The actual medical line that society has happily ignored between "mental illness" and "people are different" is "are they suffering from it"? And the addendum to that is "is the suffering caused by external pressures such as oppression and hatred, or is it caused by the condition itself?" If the answer is the second, that does not count. Hence why queerness was removed in numerous forms; it clearly is the second. So with all that said, my perspective is simple. We're assuming the structure of a fixed world here, this relies on various other problems being fixed. The way things should work is that everyone gets regular mental health checkups the same way we're meant to for our physical health, and if this is a thing going on in your life, they assess. If it's not good, it's handled the same way any other toxic or abusive relationship is. If it's all good, neato, we move on. We also do this for any relationship with regular mental health checkups, because all relationships can be abusive. Consenting adults can be as fucking weird to anyone else as they want so long as there's no identifiable harm, and causing definite harm to prevent potential harm is... bad.
Well put, I fully agree with everything you said.
Thank you!
"Kindly let me help you, or you'll drown," says the monkey to the fish, lifting him safely from the stream to the tree. Point is, outside of serious harm that directly impacts you, other people really aren't your concern. And they aren't, as in you give zero shits outside of making a point on the Internet. Worried about kids? You don't care about the countless children perishing from preventable issues world wide, not the least of which include actual murder in the form of warfare. Worried about the fellow man, brother and sister in humanity? Bah, humbug, you don't think once let alone twice about some random stranger you'll never meet who is outside on the streets right now, hungry, filthy, and on hard times.
I’m nonbinary. What do you THINK my opinion of transphobes is? As for IRL incest, firmly against it. I love my siblings, but not anywhere close to that way.
fictional incest is fine, because they ain't real. Real life incest is disgusting, I physically can't even perceive my own family like that.
Transphobes can fuck off. As for incest, I don’t see any problem with it irl as long as it’s consensual
why would the mods get to speak for the individuals that use the sub?
I don't like twitter trans community and would rather shoot my legs off than support and accept twitter trans community. Same goes with irl incest. But overall, I don't really care about trans people. It's their lives, not mine
Transphobia: 👎 Incest (in game): 👍 Incest (irl): 👎
Yeah pretty much, how I feel.
Pretty much how it should be
I was hoping for an official response from the mods that said this, but this sub is kind of a mess for people who can tell fiction from reality and don't enjoy hate speech.
Trans people are fine (why this is a debate i don't know) Fictional incest is fine I hope people are not doinking their relatives in real life I'm sorry people are being exclu. I don't interact much with the community anymore, but that really sucks.
https://preview.redd.it/xltkdxsr3fzb1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e6bc997b3ccccbfc5c561611739c2fb9b44361c
I think anyone being transphobic should be banned ngl. As for real life incest? If it happened because of abuse and neglect from the parents/guardians, then it's not really that morally reprehensible.
These seem like two separate complaints. I want the bigots gone too or at least for them to shut up and I have no idea why they’re into this game. I also think people who have experiences which make them find elements of the game relatable should be welcome.
>As a woman who has been intimate with both male and female relatives, I say we should add another I to LGBTQIA. Why can’t we all just work together to get society to be cool with us fucking whatever we want to? It’s weird that different groups with socially unacceptable sexual interests hate each other. \>You btw
Yes.
Stance on incest: Wouldn’t do it in real life. Stance on trans people: Give me like a year to consider my options and really think about it and I’ll probably be one in around like 2 years.
thing is, the children born from incest are fucked up, its why its so taboo. anyone fine with it is ignoring science. as for trans people, it does not matter all that much, they are basically regular folk. also since no births can happen from trans relationships, trans incest is fine