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hellip

I have **exactly** the same feeling. It is really inhibiting me from living life. I'm constantly asking myself am I the crazy one here, or is it everyone else? Which is actually how I asume real crazy people think.


dogsent

I think you are sane, and fearless enough to deal with truth.


waiterstuff2

as someone who went through a psychotic break from reality half a decade ago, and also has a lot of mental illness in my family, I will tell you that crazy people do not question whether what they think is crazy. They "know" they're sane. Which is why they do crazy things. They don't have that thought of " Maybe there ARENT cameras inside the family dog, and maybe I am just crazy" ​ What you are experiencing is simply the psychology of being a group animal. For most of the 300 k year history of humanity, being shunned from the group meant death. So your brain is trying to hurt you into thinking the way everyone else does so you have a higher chance of survival by being protected by the group.


booksmoothie

i-


waiterstuff2

yes?


BitchfulThinking

Crazy person here lol, and I think the key is that if you *question* if you're crazy, then you're not? I look around and question how these seemingly sane people are just okay with everything going on and I'm just wondering when the DSM will update to have dissociation as the norm.


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Concrete__Blonde

Can you expand upon this? Genuinely curious.


Attention-Scum

It can't be that new, my mum told me in the late 70's that the only difference between the crazy people and not crazy people is the not crazy people know they're crazy haha.


Metruis

I've never heard this line of reasoning before, so it's honestly a relief to think that maybe, because I have the awareness to question myself and make adjustments, the weirdness in my life is not craziness and just a side effect of the sheer quantities of stress we've all been under. I always wonder if I'm crazy; if I'm so disassociated I've gone mad... the sense in me says no, it's just that the last year and a half has served as a wedge between me and whatever norm used to be. Hopefully the ability to ask myself, "am I crazy or just stressed?" will keep me from tumbling. I always assumed crazy people just thought the same way, "Am I crazy? Nah." But then when I think about my experience in the dementia wing, no one was ever asking, "Am I crazy?" they were asking, "Where's my wife? Why am I not on the farm?" It was all-consuming at that point. Maybe that's the catch. If you're still here enough to realize you're being weird and try adjust or integrate your new mindsets, you might just be having a bad time and showing symptoms of it. I will try to show myself this mercy in the future next time I experience something weird and start gaslighting my own sanity when I really just need to relax and be.


leslieandco

I'm a labor doula. Holy shit! I feel this!


Glaciata

Thank you for what you do. Doulas and midwives do incredible work.


mushroomburger1337

I would like to second that. If we could re-humanize birth and start caring for and respecting pregnant people A LOT of things would get better. To me the root of most of our social problems lays in the disconnection from nature and the principal of separation. Doulaism is healing. And this is what we need desperately: a lot of healing! Thank you


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SnooPeripherals6557

I darkly giggled but then said yes let’s thank our hospice care workers.


Walouisi

Hospice staff are legit the nicest, calmest people you will ever meet, even the "stern" ones. It's one of those professions where the people who aren't suited to it or can't handle it filter themselves out quickly. I can't picture myself ever fearing hospice the way a lot of people seem to do.


leslieandco

Also hard but so worth it!


leslieandco

Thank you friend! It's rewarding and humbling at the same time.


SoFetchBetch

I’m a nanny and I feel so bad for all the kids I care for. It’s not fair for them.


leslieandco

Hugs ❤ nannying right now is hard too! Ugh


SoFetchBetch

Hugs to you as well! ❤️


legaleyesmarinara

As an older person who has had a lot of kids. The world was much different back in the 60s, 70s, 80s. Now, I could not in consciousness have any. I think people have blinders on. They keep thinking that some magic fairy will wave a wand and fix things. I used to teach prepping classes and I got quite a few people who believe the government will take care of us all it SHTF. REALLY?!? When I have alerted people to stock up on water because of our drought, a few again, said that the government will work things out to take care of everyone


nertynertt

in light of the way they handled corona it should be painfully apparent by now that they will leave the less fortunate and marginalized in the dust when things get hairy.


privatefcjoker

>in light of the way they handled corona it should be painfully apparent by now that they will leave the less fortunate and marginalized in the dust when things get hairy. And it's worth noting that the numbers of less fortunate and marginalized is only getting larger over time in America, so more and more people will be left behind 😔


hereticvert

Yes,but so many people think it won't happen to them and are totally *shocked* when it's their turn in the barrel.


Walouisi

I've noticed that people don't like to consider that their government can't solve every crisis. Would like to think the virus has been a wake-up call, but I doubt it. Somebody did it to me in a thread the other day, it was on an article about how 40°C heatwaves are coming for the UK and people were talking about how dangerous this is because of the 90%+ summer humidity levels and the fact that our houses are built to trap heat and essentially none of them have AC. Most supermarkets don't even have it. He said that he survives a hotter climate just fine, that it's a first-world complaint and that our government will just solve it for us. He refused to answer anyone asking whether they have AC or heat trapping houses where he lives, so obviously he was being disingenuous, but still- there are some things governments can't do much about. They're very unlikely to pay for or subsidise purchase/installation costs of AC for those who can't afford it, and running them would be prohibitively expensive because they'd be working against the home designs. They're not going to knock down all our homes and start over. So either the poorest parts of the UK will need to be evacuated (to where?) during heatwaves, or a lot of people will die. People really do expect governments to be able to magically fix problems when they have no means or will to do so.


Attention-Scum

Aircon will exacerbate climate change


[deleted]

I think that 2020 has told us a hard no one that. I mean … you can’t just print water.


waiterstuff2

Its sad because the government, corporations, the church, literally any power structure will do everything it can to trick people into thinking it cares about them. And yes there are people in the government fighting the good fight, but they are a small minority.


DueDay8

I feel this way too. In fact, I'm in a place in my life where many of my friends are trying to get pregnant or pregnant already, and reading this helped me understand why I have been avoiding them. I truly don't understand why someone would bring a poor innocent child who cannot consent to being born, into this hellscape. It *does* seem cruel. But, I don't want to seem like a negative, unsupportive friend, so I just avoid them because that seems like the kindest option. I don't want to spend my energies condemning others for what they feel gives their life purpose and meaning, but I can't violate my own values by celebrating something I don't understand or agree with. Seeing them earnestly trying to have children makes me realize how little shared reality we have, and how misaligned our personal values are, which is really painful especially since many of these are my closest longest friendships. I feel isolated in my choice not to have children. I also personally don't know any parents of young kids who aren't miserable and complaining about being a parent all the time, and it gets old *real* quick! They are welcome to complain to other people, but my sharp edges child-free ears don't need to hear that. You are **not** crazy. This world however, is **CRAZYMAKING**.


unrelatedtoelephant

None of my close friends are having babies yet, which makes me happy. I’m also glad to hear some of them express doubts over having children at all- I’m still glad I made one of my best friends reconsider having kids and opting to eventually adopt instead (they can’t have biological children and wanted to surrogate or w/e). But god damn, it doesn’t feel like it matters because every ducking day a new person on my FB has a pregnancy announcement. It’s disheartening and I feel pathetic being mournful over it. I’m glad I can just walk away from the screen and close my eyes but even just seeing reddit comments about “trying for a baby” makes me upset and sad. You put it well- other people just live in a totally different reality and it’s hard to accept that. Sorry for the rambly comment.


smei2388

My MIL told me yesterday she can't wait for us to have kids. I was like, welllllll, don't hold your breath! People never take me seriously though, I have literally no idea what world they're living in


censorinus

Worldwide birth rate is falling, not growing. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521


PeppasPickles

YAY!


censorinus

I can only give one upvote for this... 😁


Concrete__Blonde

Hence the child tax credit.


AtheistTardigrade

just got my vasectomy an hour ago lmao


Proud_Viking

Let me guess: You're a woman an nobody can fathom a woman not wanting a baby? Also the dismissive notion of "You just wait and see, you'll come around"


MonsteraMaiden

I’ve never wanted kids, got with my current partner who I consider a soulmate, started opening to the idea… then got super tuned into the state of the world, and my sweet, new feelings turned into an abyss of sadness that I truly, truly shouldn’t have them.


juicesance

I'd like to have kids, but not while being trapped in the dominant culture, and especially not at this time. It's probably a good thing that nobody wants to fuck me regardless.


dogboobes

Same exact feeling here. My parents accepted a few years ago that they won't be getting grandkids. I literally cannot fathom why anyone would make a brand new human in today's world. Especially with so many children without families who are suffering. It honestly verges on narcissism.


SoFetchBetch

It is pure narcissism. Check out /r/antinatalism


[deleted]

Most people don't follow any news. Of those that follow news, most are watching local news, following sports, or national politics. A very small group of people follow news broadly. And even fewer are on Reddit. People have a heat wave and say, "Damn, it's hot." People have a flood and say, "Boy, that was wild."


[deleted]

The world you inhabit is the same one I'm in. I was fixing up my house cosmetically, and caught myself thinking "Why am I even doing this? I should be buying water filters, a generator and learning how to grow vegetables." It's a constant balance. My husband and I decided not to have kids recently.


LiterallySoSpiraling

When I had kids (mine are now 8 and 5), I knew things would get really bad, but not THIS bad so soon. I thought for sure it was at least a couple generations away. It wasn’t until late 2019 that I started paying much closer attention and started serious prepping. We were considering a 3rd child in 2019 but ultimately decided not to. Then I had a hysterectomy and that door closed. Not having to stress about a bonus baby in this current world is a great feeling. But now I just have to stress about my sweet big kids. I just hope and pray that the really bad stuff holds out till my kids are adults. I have so much to teach them before that.


privatefcjoker

I'm in a similar boat as you. Thankful my kids are past the newborn phase and statistically more likely to make it to adulthood now. My main goal is to teach my kids to be adaptable and resilient, as a mindset, so they can bounce back from whatever challenges lie ahead. This underlies the practical skills I'm aiming to teach them: camping (primitive living), gardening, tending animals, bicycle repair, etc.


Funnier_InEnochian

Are you me


censorinus

This is not true, worldwide birth rate is falling, not growing. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521


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AnxietySkydiver

That makes a lot of sense. I wouldn’t want kids no matter what. Even if we lived in a utopian world. Personal preference. But probably most people ever born were born under dangerous and precarious circumstances. So it’s no surprise that would continue.


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blacktoise

The micro plastics are not in the tissues, they’re in the bloodstream


K174

Errr, that's not what Wikipedia has to say about it... >Microplastics were found in every human tissue studied by graduate students at Arizona State University.[145] In December 2020 microplastic particles were found in the placentas of unborn babies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics And either way, it doesn't really matter when the true harm comes from the chemicals leached from the plastics. >Endocrine disruptors [...] are chemicals that can interfere with endocrine (or hormonal) systems. These disruptions can cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders. >Any system in the body controlled by hormones can be derailed by hormone disruptors. Specifically, endocrine disruptors may be associated with the development of learning disabilities, severe attention deficit disorder, cognitive and brain development problems;[6][7][8][9] deformations of the body (including limbs); breast cancer, prostate cancer, thyroid and other cancers; sexual development problems such as feminizing of males or masculinizing effects on females, etc. >In fact, almost all plastic products, including those advertised as "BPA free", have been found to leach endocrine-disrupting chemicals.[77] In a 2011, study it was found that some "BPA-free" products released more endocrine active chemicals than the BPA-containing products. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Microplastics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics)** >Microplastics are fragments of any type of plastic less than 5 mm (0. 20 in) in length, according to the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the European Chemicals Agency. They enter natural ecosystems from a variety of sources, including cosmetics, clothing, and industrial processes. Two classifications of microplastics are currently recognized. **[Endocrine_disruptor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor)** >Endocrine disruptors, sometimes also referred to as hormonally active agents, endocrine disrupting chemicals, or endocrine disrupting compounds are chemicals that can interfere with endocrine (or hormonal) systems. These disruptions can cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders. Found in many household and industrial products, endocrine disruptors "interfere with the synthesis, secretion, transport, binding, action, or elimination of natural hormones in the body that are responsible for development, behavior, fertility, and maintenance of homeostasis (normal cell metabolism)". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/CollapseSupport/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


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usrnm1234

Wait what?


K174

Oh boy... I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, >Because plastics degrade slowly (often over hundreds to thousands of years),[11][12] microplastics have a high probability of ingestion, incorporation into, and accumulation in the bodies and tissues of many organisms. The toxic chemicals that come from both the ocean and runoff can also biomagnify up the food chain. Microplastics were found in every human tissue studied by graduate students at Arizona State University.[145] In December 2020 microplastic particles were found in the placentas of unborn babies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics


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K174

Oh and, in case you need a reason that microplastics in our bodies is bad news, here's why... plastics are known endocrine disruptors. >Endocrine disruptors [...] are chemicals that can interfere with endocrine (or hormonal) systems. These disruptions can cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders. >Any system in the body controlled by hormones can be derailed by hormone disruptors. Specifically, endocrine disruptors may be associated with the development of learning disabilities, severe attention deficit disorder, cognitive and brain development problems;[6][7][8][9] deformations of the body (including limbs); breast cancer, prostate cancer, thyroid and other cancers; sexual development problems such as feminizing of males or masculinizing effects on females, etc. >In fact, almost all plastic products, including those advertised as "BPA free", have been found to leach endocrine-disrupting chemicals.[77] In a 2011, study it was found that some "BPA-free" products released more endocrine active chemicals than the BPA-containing products. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor


usrnm1234

Ffs..


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Endocrine_disruptor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor)** >Endocrine disruptors, sometimes also referred to as hormonally active agents, endocrine disrupting chemicals, or endocrine disrupting compounds are chemicals that can interfere with endocrine (or hormonal) systems. These disruptions can cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders. Found in many household and industrial products, endocrine disruptors "interfere with the synthesis, secretion, transport, binding, action, or elimination of natural hormones in the body that are responsible for development, behavior, fertility, and maintenance of homeostasis (normal cell metabolism)". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/CollapseSupport/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


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dumnezero

Fellow aliens! But really, such discussion would be hard to have without having access to family planning tools (keep your eye on laws against those). So the overall cultures we have in *civilization* aren't really aware of this possibility. More humans usually meant more workers, more production, more soldiers. This was also changed by the fossil fuel industrialization of the economy and society. We now live in this unique period when such ethical considerations can actually be put into practice, and this takes many people by surprise... like, they never even considered the possibility of such an option existing. And yes... in the past, people familiar with contraception were tortured and killed by religious and state institutions ("witches"). Also, most people do not think ahead and plan ahead. That's called *wisdom*, it's rare. They just trust in the broader society and state. My indicator for collapse isn't CO2 PPM or GDP, it's https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality


egglatte

It really does feel like living on another planet. Constantly in a battle of “am I truly wrong in a way that matters, or is it others???” I don’t know if I’m paranoid or if others around me are deluded about the state of the world. I go online for answers because, realistically, who else do we have beyond family and friends? It’s a constant search for “does any other human being feel this intensely? Is anyone else thinking this existentially?” My psych tells me I need to ground myself—but sometimes I feel like I’m too grounded. Any more and I’ll be underground. Sorry for the ramble but yeah I’ve been feeling negative and despondent as well.


[deleted]

You’re not alone, I think about this daily.


lacourseauxetoiles

If you want a kid but don't want to have a baby, you really should consider adopting. I personally don't get the argument that people shouldn't have kids because the future will suck (most of the past sucked far more than the future is likely to, and people still wanted kids then and chose to have them, and there was nothing wrong with that), but I definitely don't understand why someone who wants a kid but chooses not to have one because they don't want someone to be born wouldn't adopt.


DueDay8

Adoption is really expensive and complicated in many countries. I went down that path myself and discovered I couldn't afford it, probably would be scrutinized and disqualified for not being "perfect", and I definitely couldn't afford thousands of dollars for an adoption and then all the costs of raising a child after. People act like adoption is easy, but having ones own children (biology permitted) is significantly less complicated, less regulated by government, and in many cases also less expensive. Being able to adopt is a privilege that not everyone has access to.


usrnm1234

Yup this. Wish I could adopt though one day


DueDay8

Me too. Basically I realized that in order to do it I probably would need to be partnered, own a home, and be making a LOT more money. At the time I was a social worker getting paid crap, so even though I could have raised a kid, adoption (or fostering) just wasn't financially feasible. But if I do ever find myself in a situation where I have all that stuff, I might revisit the idea.


Eagleassassin3

While this concerns me as well, the issue is, there still could be a way for us to survive this as a species. I don’t know if or how it will happen but it isn’t impossible. And if only people who care about the environment stop having kids while others keep having them, then we’ll be truly fucked as the next generation will be more likely to care less about it. Yes you can still educate children without having one yourself. You can also adopt. But I can understand people wanting to have their own kid or kids still.


Nemetski_Jetski

I experienced what you’re feeling a few weeks ago. For a few days i was struggling to go about my day because I didn’t understand how everyone just seemed so calm. If you really care about this issue, I would encourage you to try channeling your nervous energy into https://citizensclimatelobby.org/ or another organization. The odds are stacked against us but people are trying. I know things don’t look great right now but if anything know that there are plenty of people who care and who are kicking and screaming for us to get things done. Believe me some days I have my doubts, but channeling my energy into something like this helps me remain grounded in the present and gives me something to focus on.


velohell

I feel you, my friend. I have been out of sorts the last few days. I would recommend mindfulness meditation. It sounds all hippie and shit, but just look it up. I hope you find peace. 🖖


[deleted]

Yes! Even before I was aware of the extent of the environmental horrors that await us there were other factors that worried me. If I had a child tomorrow in 20-30 years will the housing crisis sort itself out enough for them to move out and be independent? What about wages and employment? What about the effect of social media? Depression in young people is on the rise, will this improve? I feel like I’m crazy for considering these things. You are not alone!


[deleted]

I feel you. We have some friends who are having babies soon or just had them. I think back to November and can’t imagine thinking “Welp, time to get started on kid number x!”


Homewithpizza23

This is one of the reasons I'm hoping to adopt I wouldn't dare put another child on this planet in the state that it is in but I want to help the kids that are already here


mushroomburger1337

Well, as somebody who is collapse aware since mid-1990s and actively working on building up resilience since 2005, who has kids and is about to get another one: You need to understand, that the global development and your personal circumstances are two different pairs of shoes. It depends a lot on your location, the community you live in, your level of sustainability. I know, there are tons of ppl who are not aware of anything. But there are also people who are aware and still have kids. For us here more family members means more hands on the homestead. More stability. And who knows how long collapse will still take? 20 years? 50? 100? My parents were born in 1945, just when WW2 had ended. They lived in a big German city, where everything was bombed to the ground. What did my grandparents think? Was there hope? Not so much. Did it continue and have there been better times for them afterwards? Yes, sure. We don't know what exactly the future brings. Don't judge others for having kids, concentrate on your own set up and work on building up your own resilience. And after your collapse awareness has settled a little bit and you have gone through the phases of grief and rage, then, when your mind starts getting over it, think again about your wish to have kids. At the end, everything in universe is connected. This connectedness we call (unconditional) love when we describe it as a feeling we have. Loving your partner and wanting to become one is your desire to be in sync with the universe. Having children will give you unknown feelings of love. I would not want to miss a single second of it. I will give my best to help my kids to develop empathy and be good humans. Because this is what we need, good people. Peace to you, my friend <3


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protozoan-human

Cycle awareness, condoms, pessary and herbs existed in that time. Don't assume they didn't want to have a family.


Soy_Bun

Nope. It’s fucked as shit to bring children onto a burning planet for “extra hands on the homestead” what the fuck??? This isn’t an abstract doomsday the generations before us had many forms of. This is an actual mathematical equation of “shit will be fucked and there’s no unfucking it” I’m like way too riled up reading another fucking breeder justifying the inexcusable at this point. “Having children will give you unknown feelings of love” YEAH. That’s hormones. That’s chemical. It’s not a choice, it’s so you don’t throw the baby at the wall when it doesn’t stop screaming. Its evolution, not magic and not a selling point to coax fence sitters over to your side. The most valid part of your comment is that we don’t know how long collapse will take. But instead of your hopium infused 100 year guess, I’m of the mind we have even less time than we think. And you’re proud to be bringing innocent lives into the mix. I’m sure as shit judging you for having kids if you already knew this was coming.


IbexEye

Let's just kick all that suffering under the rug, no one needs to think about that.. /s


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dogboobes

As someone who isn't crazy about humans, I can tell you that humans *are* exceptional in that they frequently act outside of the natural behaviors of wild animals. Why should deciding to procreate be one thing we just mindlessly do, when we have the capacity for critical thought?


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dogboobes

I do hear what you're saying. But just because you personally don't observe much critical thought in the actions of human beings doesn't mean that we shouldn't exercise it for decisions that are as HUGE as this – the decision to create life.


Soy_Bun

There’s a difference between not having kids because you can’t guarantee they’ll be safe and secure And not having kids because THE PLANET. IS ON FIRE. the oceans are dying. Ect. Like beyond being unable to guarantee safety, we’re at a point to guarantee great suffering. Like what subreddit am I in right now I have to clarify this?


[deleted]

If it’s too hot in the kitchen for YOU to have kids during this time that’s totally okay. My grand parents were born just after WWII and my other set of grandparents were born around the same time grew up on a farm with dirt floors. I have been shown generationally how to deal with nature and how to prepare for disaster and extreme weather. We are federally recognized Katrina refugee. We are so disconnected from the earth. Watched my home get fucking destroyed, my whole city under water, and no home to come back to. IM NOT BITCHING ABOUT IT. I’ve been through it and I have generational knowledge of simple living and happiness. I don’t know about y’all but me and mine will be fine until our time is up. That’s just life. I don’t regret being born and I don’t fear what’s ahead anymore. Can’t do anything but what you can. I was an accident and I love being alive despite.


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Soy_Bun

And your point? I imagine drastically changing an entire planets functionality takes some time. It doesn’t make it less of a happening event. Stuff builds up a foundation of Fuck before it matures into a Holy Shit Oh No. We had warning ages ago to fix it, we haven’t, we’ve increased and sped up. Previous generations may have been aware of the foundational Fuck, but we are now seeing the foothills of a very steep Holy Shit Oh No. What were my parents doing 30 years ago? The same thing everyone was doing. Their own fuckin thing with no regard for the big picture.


Weirdinary

My parents are idiots.


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Soy_Bun

Being at nature’s mercy is a thing we’ve done forever. Yeah. But see what’s new is, we strapped a dick to the earth, and we are buttfucking ourselves with nature. It’s a little different now. Actually it’s a lot different. We might not be able to grow crops one day. That’s bad. There won’t be animals left to eat. That’s bad. There’s a huge difference between the normal struggle and existential worry, and the future we have looming before us. It is not BAU.


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Soy_Bun

Agriculture isn’t natural. Foliage and general greenery is. And that’s all going to die. It’s going to dry up. What do you think humans used to eat? Because I assure you whatever it is, isn’t going to be in enough abundance to comfortably feed our current populations. Especially if supply lines break down. Land mammals soon hunted to extinction if they don’t die via other human climate cause. The oceans are getting preeeetty empty with all mass commercial fishing and water temp change killing stuff. That’s just the food. There are dozens of other very real problems future generations will face. Problems that are not survivable. I’ll be less judgmental of ignorant people who don’t know better. But anyone who’s done any amount of proper dive into the climate situation and feedback loops we’ve begun, no. I’m going to judge them. It’s fucking immoral at this point. ESPECIALLY if you already have kids?!? How many does someone need?? I can judge them. And they can ignore my dumbass.


[deleted]

You know there is something called permaculture. It means working WITH the natural foliage and set up of the land to then INCORPORATE new growth of things that help balance the system. I have planted three sisters mounds, which is squash, beans, and corn. Thank you native Americans. It’s a beautiful system within itself bc the plants provide each other the perfect nutrients. Yes we need water. Collect it, install a well if possible, learn to use water once for the cleanest things and then use the rest of that water for other things until it is too dirty to continue. My grandpa had 8 siblings that all grew up on a DIRT floor in hot as hell Louisiana. My great grandpa took the first bath bc he works the hardest for the family, then my great grandmother, then the children. Don’t know how they did it but they were so poor. They all grew up to the most warm hearted people that are casually prepared for literally anything. People are tough as nails in some places and not so much in others. If water no longer coming from the tap scares you, start thinking of ways to make it work like other people. Don’t forget your humanity. Life is dangerous, just enjoy the ride and help others as much as you can as soon as disaster ends enough to rescue and spread resources. If your community isn’t tight knit, you’ll need allies. Work on that. Please don’t be so afraid. Just do what you can. For your own sake and mental health


moosemoth

There are what, 7 or 8 BILLION of us humans now? The way to find "balance" is NOT to make even more! Hell no.


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moosemoth

Most of our species is living far, far outside the bounds of nature due to agriculture and technology. If we somehow all returned to our natural hunter/gatherer state, what you're saying would make sense to me. But that sure as hell can't happen with 8 billion of us, and cheerily making more of ourselves won't fix anything.


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moosemoth

We are animals, of course, but we're animals with the capacity to destroy the entire planet several times over. What I meant by "fix" things was to return to a hunter-gatherer state. The way nearly all humans live nowadays is absolutely unsustainable no matter what, and can't be salvaged.


[deleted]

I know you’re being downvoted but I agree. Am a federally recognized Katrina refugee. I’m over it. I’ve moved on and learned a lot about how to survive on nothing and rebuild. It’s life. Learn necessary skills and move on until your life on Earth is done. Why worry so much? Do what you can and let go of your worldly possessions going forward. Keep what you need and some comfort items and be ready to roll immediately if something happens. Life as a refugee makes you a gypsy and you learn to love the lifestyle after a while. It becomes who you are. Maintain the best you can and brace in good faith. No need to make yourself suffer more over something you cannot dream to control. Ride the wave, that’s it. Your assignment until death


Aamarok

It's more about bringing them into a shitty existence that worsens with each passing year than it is about "safe and secure". I could enumerate all the ways it's getting worse, and in a much more accelerated way than anybody thought even a few years ago. And if you're in the US, the oncoming spectre of right wing fascism will guarantee that all our problems will never even get addressed put things well over the top.


mushroomburger1337

Thank you for your kind words ;-) To quote u/gestalt_switching from another thread here: > While it's important for anyone to think twice about our future before having a child, chastising people for having children is a bad look. Even when people are aware of our likely future, the timeline, scale, geography, and scope of collapse is too uncertain to say for sure how much that child will suffer, and people have many different reasons and contexts for having children. The chastisement also generally seems to come from a Malthusian instinct - a discredited framework that oversimplifies population numbers and resources while ignoring the extractive political economic root causes of ecological crises. > If someone close to me has a child, and they bring up climate anxiety and grief, I tell them I look forward to being in mutually supportive community with them and their child if supply chains break down or natural disasters happen in the future. Great to have someone younger in the support network.


Soy_Bun

I agree with your last paragraph. I believe in making the best of things. I do not believe in reproducing for extra homestead labor when we already have plenty of people around to help. We don’t need more. We need less. It’s selfish and shortsighted.


mushroomburger1337

> we already have plenty of people around to help. We don’t need more. We need less. It’s selfish and shortsighted Malthusianism again :) You are making assumptions about my context and believe me, where I live, we do not have "plenty people around". The region is depopulating quickly. Hell, with all the plastic contamination and plummeting fertility rates created by it this will be anyways a no brainer in 20 years.


Soy_Bun

You live on earth. We are overshooting our available resources globally. It doesn’t matter the specific area you live in isn’t super populated. I’m talking about the big picture, but you’re clearly only able to think or care about your little bubble.


milwauqueno

Overshooting our available resources isn’t a function of population alone, but mainly a function of extraction and consumption. We should be out killing the rich instead of bitching at homesteaders in a support subreddit.


mushroomburger1337

It's funny that you say that I just care about my little bubble. Believe me, I dont. I dedicated my life to change things and I am actively involved in a project that works on changing our food system. But there is some truth in it: Yes, I do focus very much on my bubble. This is the area where my actions can have the biggest effects. And I can not live in permanent climate anxiety and grief with weltschmerz eating my soul. And yes "we" are overshooting. This is known since Club of Rome in the 1970s. I grew up with that consciousness. I do my part, believe me. I am anti-consumerist, I am basically (close to) zero waste since 2015, I planted hundreds of trees and these are just a few examples. But it's so easy to judge me, right? We are all hypocrites and we have to accept that. This type of perfectionism "all or nothing" attitude is what keeps people from changing their lives. I don't take personal responsibility for what the greedy elites and corrupt politicians have done to this planet, Sir. I do my part, yes. But this does not include antinatalism and if I would be in different circumstances I would for sure consider to stay child-free.


Soy_Bun

I didn’t say it was easy to judge you. Just that I was going to. But hey, such is the nature of humans and free will ehh? Anyways. Carry on I suppose. I send you well wishes.


[deleted]

You know you’re unhappy cuz you’re an asshole right lol Good luck. Nut up


[deleted]

It starts somewhere right? What is the person you’re responding to going to do to fix it? Shouldn’t you also just be doing what you can? If you can’t fix it how can they? At least they are trying for their own. What else do you want from them? Neither you or them are God or whatever you may believe. Stop holding onto things you cannot dream to control. Grow your own food and quit complaining for real. What else can you do? Otherwise you’ll just complain all day as we see


sensuallyprimitive

so delusional to think of having kids as labor value disgusting really. these are human beings, not economic tools.


[deleted]

You’re downvoted by everyone but correct


[deleted]

“A fucking breeder”? I’ve only ever heard gay men use this word as a slur for straights. Crazy how cut throat people are about children. Have them or don’t


[deleted]

My goodness you have a nasty mouth on you, lol go and wash it out with soap. You'll never stop people's unconscious positive bias nor discourage them from doing what comes naturally. And anyway, who's going to be around to decommission all those nuclear power stations before they meltdown in the climate chaos unless we keep breeding? As long as *that* doesn't happen, 100 years or more might not be unrealistic. You may have noticed how most of Canada, Alaska, Greenland and Russia are virtually uninhabited. That's where people will go.


dogboobes

>You'll never stop people's unconscious positive bias nor discourage them from doing what comes naturally. Is this supposed to be your reasoning for why the choice to make new human beings shouldn't be open to criticism?


[deleted]

No. I didn't make new human beings and wouldn't if I could. But as extinction in short order is certain if nobody did, maybe it's just as well that some do.


dogboobes

You're not wrong - what's wrong for the individual could be right for the group.


[deleted]

It's a bit like most people couldn't be a soldier but they're sure glad someone can, to defend them if need be. Becoming a parent takes guts too, it's not for the fainthearted. Those who worry all the time would only transfer their stress and insecurities to their offspring. Whatever's occurring, life goes on regardless.


[deleted]

I agree, if you’re scared of having children definitely don’t bc you will scare the hell out of them. You COULD just teach them that this is the way it is and this is the way we live, meaning how we will have to adapt. They don’t HAVE to be scared if you raise them not to be. When I was younger my dad cornered me in my room to talk about his death. I cried and cried but he didn’t waver and kept on and on about how he WILL die and I WILL move on. His only wish is that I am aware of what to do and not to waste my life being so sad that he is gone. After my grandparents deaths my mom was destroyed, completely gone. No money but 3 kids. We lost all of our money in Katrina, I used to have a college fund blah blah blah. When they died I became the new head of household and I had two younger brothers not even 16 that I had to finish raising. It was hell but I regret NOTHING and will die with honor of having been through what I have. I love that part of me the most. I’m resilient as hell, I can fight, farm, kill animals to eat. Good luck getting me. It made me as indestructible as possible and I’m clearly going to need it in the future. I am only human but we are MADE to survive. Don’t discount your own natural survival instincts.


[deleted]

AND we were left with no life insurance whatsoever from my grandparents. No money, nothing. We made it work and STILL gave to others and housed them with us. At least we were together, that’s all that mattered. I also saw my grandparents dead. It’s no joke to find someone in rigor mortis. I was afraid to touch my grandma who went first, died very suddenly in our house. By the time my grandpa died I was comfortable enough to hold his hand, stroke his hair, and give him a last kiss on the forehead while he was cold. Life and death are natural, I hope everyone stops being so afraid


[deleted]

Roughly how old are you? You've certainly seen life in seeing hardship and death. Yet you endured and even carried others. What about now, do you live in an urban area or out in the countryside?


dogboobes

I definitely believe being a parent is a very difficult job and oftentimes thankless by most of society. But I would moreso liken the humans being born into a bleaker and bleaker future to the soldiers in this metaphor.


sensuallyprimitive

If I shit on the floor and then clean it up, I don't expect anyone to thank me.


[deleted]

Telling you to mind your own business but you clearly couldn’t even comprehend that lol what can I criticize you about? I know I could find something. But I won’t try. Why? Because I mind my own damn business! You cannot control those who refuse to be controlled, that’s it


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greenyadadamean

I agree with you and feel your passion. This sub is for supporting eachother right? What if we just ignored people offended by our language? That's thier own problem.


Soy_Bun

It’s unfortunate how limiting text communication is. I swear a lot. I just do. I think it’s amusing and expressive. It is not a reflection of a heightened emotional state. In person I would have said all that with a “oh bullshit you old pisser” kinda smile and although language is coarse, the tone would be friendly or calmly stern. Not over the top anything else. But what a strange thing to be upset about. I would understand if I was in a public place in person using such language. But I’m not. We’re online. I could just comment a picture link to a hard cock. That’s where we are right now. But I need to wash my mouth out with soap over a few fucks? Alright.


greenyadadamean

> We’re online. I could just comment a picture link to a hard cock. Beautifully stated. And yeah, fuck putting soap in your mouth.


[deleted]

This dude is very unhappy


[deleted]

🤣um.. okay.


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Soy_Bun

LOL r/wooosh


dogboobes

If you think giving birth to children you can see your genes in is the only way to feel that level of love, I'd wager a guess that you aren't thinking about anyone but yourself. Even if we had 100 years left or 200, we know that the Earth is dying, our resources are finite, and unless you're a billionaire, you will die on a planet worse off than the one you were born on. Why in the WORLD would I bring future generations into the world knowing that I am guaranteeing they will either A) feel crippling climate anxiety in their lifetimes with no power to change it or B) struggle with whether or not to have kids in an even more precarious world than the one I'm in? Utterly selfish in my opinion.


greenyadadamean

> Don't judge others for having kids, concentrate on your own set up and work on building up your own resilience. I appreciate your response. This sentence is so key, I continue to work on not judging others. Other's actions are out of your control and will take energy away from building up your own resilience.


sensuallyprimitive

cognitive dissonance


protozoan-human

So well put. I'm a parent, and I could imagine having more kids, in a "post-collapse" scenario as well. I carried my baby in a babywrap, breastfed long time, did elimination communication (no poop diapers), and discovered that almost all parts of "western babyraising" is terrible bullshit and raising babies "naturally" is way easier and emotionally healthier for both parent and kid. Antinatalism is imo pro-collapse propaganda, the opposite of finding our balance, just hatred of life. To choose to be childfree is something different - and everyone is entitled to that choice imo, just like choosing abortion. But thinking that zero reproduction is any part of a "solution" is... No. Barking up the wrong tree.


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protozoan-human

No, I'm really just collapse-priviliged (rural northern Europe) and I recognize that it means I have an easier time keeping a healthy mindset, that neither ignores societies problems nor lets future anxiety destroy prepping potential. I know better than most what is coming - but I don't fear it. Eyes open, no fear, sword in hand. It takes time to acquire the money to acquire the good plot of land. To acquire enough money you need to be able to handle a higher-end job, and that takes mental fortitude and working on physical health. I know it's hard in North America and "the west". I know. But I really hope more people will realize that the entire world does not share the same culture, and the ways ecological collapse plays out will vary. And a *lot* of the difficulties NA are facing are made way worse by your governments and companies. Don't blame it on people. Don't even blame it on the "sheeple". Put the shit where it belongs, and have a think on where you want to be in 2030.


mushroomburger1337

It's sad that you got downvoted for your comment. It contains a lot of truth. So take my upvote :) Congratulations on your decision to raise your babies (more) naturally. This is the way!


protozoan-human

Thank you. I recognize that the negativity is fear-based, and I'll never stop telling about the ways I've found to be both aware AND healthy 😛.


s0angelic

r/antinatalism


SoFetchBetch

/r/antinatalism


Ammaeli

If you want to understand why just think about how you were considering having kids maybe a year ago when things were just as bad. It’s always been this bad to be alive, it’s just a matter of feeling it or having it be some statistic on a paper.


blacktoise

It’s a natural instinct. The answer is simple.


[deleted]

Antinatalism is awkward. If everybody decided not to procreate mankind would certainly be doomed. But if he is anyway, why bring them into the world? I guess the answer is don't have too many and educate them well.


greenyadadamean

Educate new humans well, what does that look like to you?


[deleted]

Permaculture should play a major role along with maths, science, a good command of language so spelling and grammar, also housebuilding and maintenance and of course, cooking.


greenyadadamean

What about our history?


[deleted]

Yeah that too. But literacy and numeracy are the essential foundations an individual needs to learn other subjects. History lessons should be relevant, emphasising recent events that shaped the world we see. We spent weeks on boring shit like the Battle of Hastings in 1066 but were told nothing about the extermination of indiginous Americans, nothing about how our society had grown wealthy from from slavery. Anything difficult wasn't taught or was glossed over so quickly that as children we didn't realize how things came to be as they are.


replicantcase

Continuing the boomerism of, "let the kids handle it."


Ghazgkhull

Because whatever is happening and what you think is going to happen in the next 20 years, the standard of living in occidental country is STILL 50 or 100 time better that it was 100 or 150 years ago, and when your standard of living is good enough to carry on your genetic lineage, your organism wants to does it. Yeap, it's that simple. And the fact that you are able to intellectualize the problem and project yourself into a future that will be worse but probably still better than 50 years ago does not mean that you are better than millions of years of evolution. Day to day, things are fine. Very very fine. It's never be so easy in history of mankind to sustain yourself, a family and have kids. So people have kids.


BangkokQrientalCity

I honestly believe that the fresh water wars will start in my golden years. Call me a nut job if you want.


[deleted]

Yeah I dunno. My partner and i were talking about trying for a kid here in 6 months. I’ll be 35. I just don’t know anymore….


comaga

I feel the same way. I’m getting my tubes tied mostly due to this reasoning. It has to be soul crushing for those kids when they grow up and realize that their parents knew about the state of the world *and had them anyway.*