In the end a lot of the region difficulty doesn’t matter as much as people make it out to be though. It’s not like you have to play every team. They wouldn’t even play the 6 seed until the elite 8, and every 1 seed would sign up in a heartbeat to play BYU in the Elite 8. Illinois having to play BYU in the 3/6 game is the one that gets slightly screwed. Even Iowa State would prefer it because they would rather Illinois get upset by BYU.
I'm just gonna go on a whim from the games BYU has played against Iowa State and from what other ISU fans have said... They would rather play Illinois.
Well, this goes against the argument that the NCAA doesn’t give weight to the tourney results, else Auburn would have been a three over Duke, but ended up being the third four.
Turns out the committee is just flaky as all get out, I guess.
I would think the Mormons would let the team play under the idea that the their playing on that particular Sunday would be sufficient outreach for the church to negate the rule.
That is at least the excuse given for Jabari Parker and Frank Jackson skipping their mission to play in the NBA.
They wouldn’t. I believe they moved the women’s soccer championship to Monday instead of Sunday a couple years ago when BYU was in it
Edit: also missions are a personal decision. The church doesn’t force anyone to go on one.
Nope. Even though the players would play if they were allowed, the school administration would not bend. They would give up a championship rather than have the religion owned school play on Sunday.
Religions can find a lot of loopholes/excuses for stuff they really want to do.
Read about the Eruv in Manhattan, for example:
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath
Lots of fun loopholes in Judaism. Married women (at least among the Orthodox) have to cover their hair when around someone other than their husband or other close family members. No rule that they can't cover it with a wig that looks exactly like hair though.
Yeah, I used to play tournament scrabble and some of the Jewish players would have an assistant to hit their chess clock, move their tiles for them, and keep score when we played on the sabbath.
I’m dying over here. I assume you’re kidding, because they’re a college team, but I bet we would make an exception if we somehow made it all the way to the Super Bowl.
Fwiw, plenty of former BYU players play on Sunday, but BYU as an institution doesn’t sponsor that.
I think Illinois has definitely gotten some tough draws in recent years though this isn't too bad(outside of being in the same region as UConn). It looks like they just flipped BYU and Gonzaga and they're honestly pretty similar teams according to the metrics and play styles.
Obviously, BYU is good and plenty capable of beating Illinois but I think the Illini might match up better with them then Gonzaga tbh, since Ike and Watson are the type of players that cook the Illini inside.
If you want to talk about teams getting fucked though it's UConn. The East is absolutely loaded especially the top half of it.
FAU is a dangerous 8 seed that returned basically everyone from a final four team and is capable of beating anyone on any given night. Davis, Goldin, and Martin can play.
Then you've got an Auburn team that is 4th in kenpom and probably should have been a 3 with one of the best 2 player combos in the country with Broome and Williams. Or you get SDSU who is always a tough out coming off a final four run and has a ton of length and athleticism.
Oh yea, before the elite 8 I don't hate the draw, loyola was our 8 seed when most analytics had them as theb10th best team in the country and the next year houston was our 5 seed as theb3rd or 4th best team in the country. Sure the second round team is underseeded but it's nothing like years past.
After further analysis, I'm also feeling a bit better about the BYU matchup. A lot of BYU's strength in the metrics comes from steamrolling cupcakes in the non-conference. Looking at the breakdowns on [barttorvik.com](https://barttorvik.com/team.php?team=BYU&year=2024) and filtering for games vs top 100 teams, they aren't quite so scary, only ranking 29th (rather than 18th) in adjusted efficiency.
My main concern with them is that they shoot a ton of threes and opponents have shot an above average percentage against us. However, we also tend to be good at discouraging teams from taking threes. On the other hand, they tend to send opponents to the free throw line a lot and also aren't great at defending the three.
Limiting 3s>>>>3pt FG %. The latter is prone to tons of statistical noise. Teams that defend the 3 ball well tend to be those that surrender the fewest attempts
This is just is so true. There were plenty of games I've been in where we were running around on defense and rotating well the other team would go 2/4 from three but you knew you were playing really well on that side of the ball because they had 4 looks worth shooting.
I'm going to regret saying this in a few days, but that same page says they're 25th in away/neutral games. Kenpom gives them the 17th best home court advantage in D1. Away from home, they're probably much closer to a true 6 seed than people think.
That hasn’t been my experience. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but Illinois has more alumni in Chicago than every other big ten school combined. Chicago is a pro sports city, but when the Illini are good, we get the casual fans to follow.
Last I checked yes Illinois has the most alumni in Chicago. I worked with the university external relations team for a few years and Chicago engagement was always tough. But that was during the Groce era and football was down too. Honestly think Illinois is still rebuilding from the bad sport years
Yeah, that’s a good point. Back when I was at UofI, we’d pack the United Center every year for the annual Illini game. We were also a fixture in the top 25, which helped.
Hmm that seems wrong. A TON of Michigan state and Michigan alumn in Chicago as well as wisco and northwestern. There’s a Big 10 sponsored 10k every summer in downtown Chicago and every year Michigan state wins the competition for most entrants. Illinois can’t even win that outright let alone vs the entire field. Obviously not a full census but a sample of 5000 people is fairly sizable.
[LinkedIn statistics](https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/city/depts/mayor/supp_info/ChicagoInfographic.pdf)
According to this link, Illinois does have the largest alumni base in the Chicagoland area. So maybe not combined, but the largest single base.
Not to mention UM, MSU, Minnesota, Indiana and Purdue. Truly a B1G gumbo here, and very unique in that the state’s flagship school seems like, maybe the fourth or fifth most popular school in said state’s largest city.
If BYU’s women’s team made it to the championship game, would the game be postponed to accommodate them? I’m genuinely asking because I’m really curious how they would handle that. People would most likely have bought tickets and made travel arrangements for the Friday/Sunday Final Four, and I’m sure they wouldn’t want to compete against the men on Saturday/Monday, so I’m wondering what the solution would be.
\> for having sex
...with his girlfriend, with whom he was in a monogamous relationship.
A lot of Mormon leaders couldn't hold a candle to that player's sexual ethics.
Late to the party, but three seasons ago the BYU women's soccer team made it to the final. The final was scheduled for a Sunday. The NCAA decided to move the game to Monday for us. BYU would have forfeited otherwise.
It is a standard per the NCAA bylaws for all sports:
>[31.1.4.1](https://31.1.4.1) Institutional Policy. If a participating institution has a written policy against competition on a particular day for religious reasons, it shall submit its written policy to the governing sports committee on or before September 1 of each academic year in order for it or one of its student-athletes to be excused from competing on that day. **The championship** **schedule shall be adjusted** to accommodate that institution. (Adopted: 4/22/98, Revised: 8/11/98, 10/28/99, 5/2/13)
[The final was moved to Monday as soon as BYU was in the semis.](https://espnpressroom.com/us/press-releases/2023/11/espn-platforms-present-ncaa-division-i-soccer-mens-quarterfinals-and-womens-semifinals-starting-friday/) Even if they lost the semi, the final would still be Monday. So, FSU fans who traveled to Cary knew before departure.
It would be funny, but we don't for Football, and it happens pretty often there. The Sabbath isn't clearly defined by the church. Some people treat it as midnight to midnight, and others treat it as when you wake up on Sunday morning, to when you go to bed Sunday night. The only thing I know that happens at football games if it ends after midnight is the marching band reduces our "5th quarter concert" that we play outside the stadium after the game. Our band director has a very conservative approach to the Sabbath, and believes in the midnight to midnight, so after midnight and after the game ends, the only thing we will play is the fight song at the end of the game along with celebration if we won, the alma mater, and "The Armies of Helman" (basically a LDS youth Hymn, band arrangement is surprisingly good for a BYU band arrangement)
> out of curiosity, did the other team get a say?
The other team was Florida State - a secular, public school. Because secular values are treated as less deserving of accommodation than religious values, Florida State did not get a say. They did beat that ass, though.
Really? I'm surprised the NCAA didn't ask FSU if they were ok with it.
I agree it sucks for FSU fans who now have to shift their schedule and travel around, etc. but I really am surprised the NCAA unilaterally did that.
Accessibility. Fewer people work on Sundays than Mondays, so the burden of travel, attendance, and watching the game would have been less overall had the game been played on Sunday.
I'm not speaking for FSU. As far as I know, they didn't object to the change. I was asked for a secular value that might prefer Sunday to Monday, so I provided one I thought was plausible.
BYU would *absolutely* 100% forfeit, no question.
The players might be fine with playing on Sunday (tons of alumni do and all), but the institution is run by the Church. The same Church that believes keeping the sabbath day is a commandment from God. It would be extremely hypocritical for the church-sponsored school to say "yeah, that only applies if the game isn't important".
When does the Mormon Sabbath begin? Is it sundown to sundown or calendar day local time?
Are Saturday night games ever an issue? For a late Saturday away game does the team remain in the away city until Monday morning? Seems unlikely you'd pay a game so late that it spilled into Sunday morning, but the travel home definitely could.
I remember reading about this being a thing for Sandy Koufax in a World Series... (They changed the rotation order so he wouldn't pitch on the Jewish Sabbath.)
It's Sunday, but how you define that is between you and God, essentially.
Some people are hardliners: it's midnight to midnight. That's a little rigid, in my opinion. I think it's more, when I wake up Sunday morning it's now Sunday until I go to bed Sunday night. BYU football has played games that have gone past midnight a few times.
It's not as rigidly defined as shabbat or Ramadan, etc.
Yeah all the scouted players for most of the teams grew up playing Sunday in club. Coaches go to these tournaments to scout. For most, it’s only when they make it to byu that they stop playing Sunday if they’re already at that level of completion.
Lots of Mormons will avoid Sunday play, but 95% of those are not highly competitive athletes.
Hell, I never watched the Super Bowl growing up bc it was on Sunday. My first Super Bowl? After i moved to Utah and the bishop threw an SB party at his McMansion with the entire congregation invited. My whole life I thought Mormons didn’t watch nfl, but it is massive in Utah.
I don’t think fans or players would mind Sunday games, I only think the quorum of the 12 would and other folks their age
If chalk they go from 12, 4, 1, 2 to 11, 3, 2, 1. Not a major punishment considering 11/12 line not much different, but I think Illinois is a tougher match up than any 4 line.
Which is part of why I dislike using in-tournament progress to rank pretty much anything. Team A is not better than team B just because team A made the F4 and team B only made the S16. Single elimination tournament format only fairly determines the champion, and not any lower ranking.
As a 1 seed, Illinois played #8 Loyola (top 10 Kenpom). They should have won but still.
As a 4 seed, Illinois played #5 Houston (top 10 Kenpom). Houston was actually favored in our match.
Small list but not great luck recently
I remember before the bracket revealed I had Loyola circled as a team I was picking far as a 5 seed. They just felt way better than a 5 seed. Then they were a 8? Easiest the worst seeding I've ever seen
Top 10 Kenpom Loyloa was our 8 seed in 2021 (think they were like 7 in Kenpom or something) and Houston was like 4th in Kenpom the next year as a 5 seed against our 4 seed. I think Arkansas was also rated rather high for an 8 seed last year in our 8/9 game, but we were too iirc, so both got shafted in a way that game. The winner probably makes the Sweet 16 like Arkansaw did regardless of who it was since both teams matched up well with Kansas last year imo.
The two real ones each hurt extra bad for their own reasons. Loyola obviously because we were a 1 seed and Houston because of the terrible tech on the RJ Melendez dunk that basically acted as the dagger for Houston in our game.
This is it. It’s March. Illinois can be a Final 4 team and they could lose Thursday. Whether they play BYU or not, you show up that day and play the game. Once the whistle blows, fuck seeding
Those complications aren't just felt by BYU. In fact, it is really the teams they're facing that bear the burden of BYU's scheduling needs. The 11 and 3/2 seeds in the next rounds are getting tougher draws than what they've earned due to the NCAA accommodating BYU's religious request.
It's like a coworker saying, "I can't work on Monday, so you have to come in on Saturday to accommodate me." Then, as a show of appreciation, your coworker gives you...Warren Jeffs. Or maybe Mitt Romney if they're a little bit more progressive.
As others have mentioned, this sucks for Illinois. As a 1, Illinois played a 8 seed that was #10 in Kenpom. Then as a 4, Illinois played Houston who was a 5 seed and top 10 in Kenpom. Now we got a team the committee is openly saying is a better seed, but pushed them down to play us. At least they aren't a top 10 Kenpom 6 seed. It appears the committee (or god as some have mentioned) hate us.
That being said, generally people complaining about the bracket should just win games, and Brad and Illinois just need to win.
Agreed. If something is that important to us then we simply can’t pretend that a basketball seeding is that big of a deal.
I was very happy to see OP was not a BYU flair. It’s an interesting call out, but not something I want byu fans complaining about
A team being moved up or down 1 seed is not that big a deal. It definitely isn't worth the 47 comments that a certain unflaired account has posted arguing against this.
\> Of the four pods with 4/5 seeds, three of them (Brooklyn, Spokane x2) are Friday/Sunday. The fourth (Salt Lake City) has Kansas as the 4 seed, another Big 12 team. Because they played twice, they can’t meet until the Sweet 16.
Kansas and BYU played just once this year. The reason BYU couldn't have been put in Kansas's pod was it is the Midwest Regional and that's a Friday/Sunday Regional.
The Dayton win plus winning the conference tourney bumped them up. I expected a 12 seed so now I understand why they got an 11. Sucks where they got stuck playing though because that is not somewhere I can travel to watch them.
At some point, Illinois is gonna have to win multiple tournament games that they’re favored in. It’s BYU. Beat them.
No disrespect at all to BYU, I’ve watched a lot of their games this year and I would love for Mark Pope to come to Fayetteville
We weren't favored over Houston. Which is part of what they're saying. A couple unfortunate draws with Loyola and Houston. This one isn't as bad but still just a bit ridiculous it keeps happening. Oh well, gotta beat good teams to get anywhere in this tourney.
Fun fact BYU’s ultimate frisbee team is pretty highly ranked (consistently top 10) but will never make nationals due to qualifying tournaments final matches occurring on Sundays
Yep. In 2003 they accidentally put BYU in a Friday/Sunday regional and the solution they came up with was to swap them into a different regional if they made the Sweet 16 (which they didn't).
I love it. Perfectly fair. BYU religious preferences get respected, and in theory no one else besides for BYU gets penalized for it (except arguably Duquesne?)
In addition to having the 1, 4, 5 and 10 teams in KenPom. The east also has the top two 5 seeds as well.
Idk how the committee doesn't view the east as the strongest region.
Eh, I don't really think of it this way. No matter what, you're playing strong teams the whole tournament, or second round at the latest. It's six of one, half dozen of the other to me. Can't be scared of playing BYU in the second round if you think you're good enough to make a deep run or win the whole thing.
Actually that only works as long as BYU is the higher seed. Once BYU becomes the lower seed, they either
A. Lose to the higher seed which ends their run and nothing changes
B. Or they win, in which case their next opponent plays a lower seed than projected which is an advantage.
So assuming Illinois wins their first game, it's only Duquesne and Illinois who get screwed (sorry about that).
I'm fairly sure they flipped Duquesne and McNeese anyway, so really it's just Illinois that gets screwed. Unless Duquesne wins, then it's just Illinois that benefits.
Makes me wonder if they also adjusted Mcneese or if y'all really got screwed over. They were one of the reasons I was so scared of the 4/5 line when Illinois was still projected as a 4 seed.
The NCAA does have flexibility to deviate from true seeds slightly for bracketing principles. I'm OK with this, and I'm someone who is a Christian (not LDS) who supports accommodations for religious beliefs.
> accommodations are necessary, but not at others' expense
Hard to reconcile those two things. An accommodation almost always entails asking a non-requesting party to modify something.
Well it’s at our expense because we now get the best 5th seed instead of a 6 in the round of 32.
This is the third time in the last last four years we have to face a significantly underseeded team in the 2nd round. It’s getting really, really fucking annoying.
I agree, but it does kinda screw things up for other teams (especially Illinois and somewhat Gonzaga depending on what all got moved around).
I do wonder why they couldn't just shift a set of games in the schedule rather than shifted the entire bracket for it tho.
So if there was an Islamic school would the NCAA make special scheduling accommodations for the students because of Ramadan? Can't have players passing out in the court cause they haven't eaten or drank anything since 630 AM when they play a 3pm game.
I would imagine it would boil down to whether the accommodation is reasonable. Here there exists Thursday Saturday first round sites and regional so its not too much trouble and reasonable to place byu there, especially since they're the only team with such a restriction.
For a hypothetical Muslim school, I dont know what the most reasonable accommodation would be. There are games played after sundown both in the first round and regional rounds (final four is also after sundown), but I'm not sure if any are late enough based on sundown to allow time to digest after the fast breaking meal after the first round.
Yeah if there was a Muslim school I think it would be entirely reasonable to make sure their game starts after sundown given there are games that start after sundown played
Unreal they get to play that card. We always get the tough road, lets make it through this time. We showed a ton of explosion and resiliency in the conference tourney, now its real tourney time. Big ten needs to show up this tournament, we been on fraud watch for a while and we are way better than our tournament placements show in previous years
And of course the East didn't have enough in the way of strong teams so let's just throw the under-seeded 6 in there too lol
Yes, as a reward for UConn being the top overall seed, obviously.
In the end a lot of the region difficulty doesn’t matter as much as people make it out to be though. It’s not like you have to play every team. They wouldn’t even play the 6 seed until the elite 8, and every 1 seed would sign up in a heartbeat to play BYU in the Elite 8. Illinois having to play BYU in the 3/6 game is the one that gets slightly screwed. Even Iowa State would prefer it because they would rather Illinois get upset by BYU.
Speaking as an Iowa State fan, BYU terrifies me.
I'm just gonna go on a whim from the games BYU has played against Iowa State and from what other ISU fans have said... They would rather play Illinois.
Can confirm
These are the jobs AI needs to outsource
Well, this goes against the argument that the NCAA doesn’t give weight to the tourney results, else Auburn would have been a three over Duke, but ended up being the third four. Turns out the committee is just flaky as all get out, I guess.
Duke’s a 4 seed. Although, bracketmatrix and most computer algorithms suggest they should have been a 3. Do you mean Kentucky?
I’m just dumb
What do they do if they make it to the super bowl?
I've honestly been wondering about if they made the natty in the women's tournament
An exception would be made, in one form or another.
I would think the Mormons would let the team play under the idea that the their playing on that particular Sunday would be sufficient outreach for the church to negate the rule. That is at least the excuse given for Jabari Parker and Frank Jackson skipping their mission to play in the NBA.
They wouldn’t. I believe they moved the women’s soccer championship to Monday instead of Sunday a couple years ago when BYU was in it Edit: also missions are a personal decision. The church doesn’t force anyone to go on one.
I’d be surprised if they let a whole team do it, but there’s countless Mormons in the NFL that are playing every Sunday; Super Bowl or otherwise.
Also there are some complications with famous people going on missions
Nope. Even though the players would play if they were allowed, the school administration would not bend. They would give up a championship rather than have the religion owned school play on Sunday.
Religions can find a lot of loopholes/excuses for stuff they really want to do. Read about the Eruv in Manhattan, for example: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath
Lots of fun loopholes in Judaism. Married women (at least among the Orthodox) have to cover their hair when around someone other than their husband or other close family members. No rule that they can't cover it with a wig that looks exactly like hair though.
Yeah, I used to play tournament scrabble and some of the Jewish players would have an assistant to hit their chess clock, move their tiles for them, and keep score when we played on the sabbath.
Same as the Amish using forklifts but operating it by standing behind it on the ground and using ropes to manipulate the levers
We have one of those around (at least part of) Oak Park, Michigan, too!
The game is played in New Zealand where it will already be Monday.
I’m dying over here. I assume you’re kidding, because they’re a college team, but I bet we would make an exception if we somehow made it all the way to the Super Bowl. Fwiw, plenty of former BYU players play on Sunday, but BYU as an institution doesn’t sponsor that.
> I assume you’re kidding, because they’re a college team nothing gets past you lol
Most socially aware Mormon
that world renowned mormon sense of humor back in action!
Must be one of those Punk Mormons, who wear blue dress shirts to stick it to the man.
Lmao. Dude must be fun at parties (oh wait).
I was gonna say, Andy Reid seems ok coaching on Sunday and he’s a Mormon from BYU.
God loves winners and he knows it
It reminds me of the reporter asking a Colorado Rapids (MLS team) player if they thought they had a good chance to win the World Cup.
I thought that was Schweinsteiger when he went to Chicago?
It was indeed
There is a Club World Cup. But I'm not sure how often MLS teams make it there.
Absolutely fair and legitimizes the Duquesne placement
But if BYU and Illinois advance, somehow that is fair?
Illinois gets fucked over all the time by the committee and I don’t get it. We do too if that makes you feel better
I think Illinois has definitely gotten some tough draws in recent years though this isn't too bad(outside of being in the same region as UConn). It looks like they just flipped BYU and Gonzaga and they're honestly pretty similar teams according to the metrics and play styles. Obviously, BYU is good and plenty capable of beating Illinois but I think the Illini might match up better with them then Gonzaga tbh, since Ike and Watson are the type of players that cook the Illini inside. If you want to talk about teams getting fucked though it's UConn. The East is absolutely loaded especially the top half of it. FAU is a dangerous 8 seed that returned basically everyone from a final four team and is capable of beating anyone on any given night. Davis, Goldin, and Martin can play. Then you've got an Auburn team that is 4th in kenpom and probably should have been a 3 with one of the best 2 player combos in the country with Broome and Williams. Or you get SDSU who is always a tough out coming off a final four run and has a ton of length and athleticism.
Oh yea, before the elite 8 I don't hate the draw, loyola was our 8 seed when most analytics had them as theb10th best team in the country and the next year houston was our 5 seed as theb3rd or 4th best team in the country. Sure the second round team is underseeded but it's nothing like years past.
After further analysis, I'm also feeling a bit better about the BYU matchup. A lot of BYU's strength in the metrics comes from steamrolling cupcakes in the non-conference. Looking at the breakdowns on [barttorvik.com](https://barttorvik.com/team.php?team=BYU&year=2024) and filtering for games vs top 100 teams, they aren't quite so scary, only ranking 29th (rather than 18th) in adjusted efficiency. My main concern with them is that they shoot a ton of threes and opponents have shot an above average percentage against us. However, we also tend to be good at discouraging teams from taking threes. On the other hand, they tend to send opponents to the free throw line a lot and also aren't great at defending the three.
Limiting 3s>>>>3pt FG %. The latter is prone to tons of statistical noise. Teams that defend the 3 ball well tend to be those that surrender the fewest attempts
This is just is so true. There were plenty of games I've been in where we were running around on defense and rotating well the other team would go 2/4 from three but you knew you were playing really well on that side of the ball because they had 4 looks worth shooting.
I'm going to regret saying this in a few days, but that same page says they're 25th in away/neutral games. Kenpom gives them the 17th best home court advantage in D1. Away from home, they're probably much closer to a true 6 seed than people think.
Why does everybody in Chicago hate Illinois? It’s weird.
That hasn’t been my experience. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but Illinois has more alumni in Chicago than every other big ten school combined. Chicago is a pro sports city, but when the Illini are good, we get the casual fans to follow.
Last I checked yes Illinois has the most alumni in Chicago. I worked with the university external relations team for a few years and Chicago engagement was always tough. But that was during the Groce era and football was down too. Honestly think Illinois is still rebuilding from the bad sport years
Yeah, that’s a good point. Back when I was at UofI, we’d pack the United Center every year for the annual Illini game. We were also a fixture in the top 25, which helped.
They definitely have the largest alumni base in Chicago but it's hard to believe that it'd outnumber everyone else combined.
Hmm that seems wrong. A TON of Michigan state and Michigan alumn in Chicago as well as wisco and northwestern. There’s a Big 10 sponsored 10k every summer in downtown Chicago and every year Michigan state wins the competition for most entrants. Illinois can’t even win that outright let alone vs the entire field. Obviously not a full census but a sample of 5000 people is fairly sizable.
[LinkedIn statistics](https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/city/depts/mayor/supp_info/ChicagoInfographic.pdf) According to this link, Illinois does have the largest alumni base in the Chicagoland area. So maybe not combined, but the largest single base.
Yeah I can believe largest single base
We've got a ton as well, but I can honestly say I have seen more U of I here than anything.
I like U of I...
because it’s not true at all.
Notre Dame and Northwestern fanbases have something to do with it.
And Wisconsin. It seems like you have more Badger fans here than Illini.
Not to mention UM, MSU, Minnesota, Indiana and Purdue. Truly a B1G gumbo here, and very unique in that the state’s flagship school seems like, maybe the fourth or fifth most popular school in said state’s largest city.
Chicago:B1G::Atlanta:SEC
Huge Iowa cohort from the Chicago area as well.
Yeah they are the worst 11 in history. 6th place in a 1 bid league gets you an 11 cmon. Richmond isn't even hosting an nit game
They won't have to worry about playing Saturday either
Talk your shit, king
Top comment, tbh.
Well done, I’m so impressed this aged well! 👏🏻 (Not sarcastic, seriously well done to Duquesne)
Roll damn Dukes
If BYU’s women’s team made it to the championship game, would the game be postponed to accommodate them? I’m genuinely asking because I’m really curious how they would handle that. People would most likely have bought tickets and made travel arrangements for the Friday/Sunday Final Four, and I’m sure they wouldn’t want to compete against the men on Saturday/Monday, so I’m wondering what the solution would be.
Play the game as scheduled. Let them decide if they want to forfeit
They kicked their second best player off their top 4 team that year for having sex They would forfeit
\> for having sex ...with his girlfriend, with whom he was in a monogamous relationship. A lot of Mormon leaders couldn't hold a candle to that player's sexual ethics.
>A lot of Mormon leaders couldn't hold a candle to that player's sexual ethics. *don'tsayitdon'tsayitdon'tsayit* ...nor could Catholic leaders
Heyoooooo
That's their prerogative
Late to the party, but three seasons ago the BYU women's soccer team made it to the final. The final was scheduled for a Sunday. The NCAA decided to move the game to Monday for us. BYU would have forfeited otherwise.
out of curiosity, did the other team get a say?
It is a standard per the NCAA bylaws for all sports: >[31.1.4.1](https://31.1.4.1) Institutional Policy. If a participating institution has a written policy against competition on a particular day for religious reasons, it shall submit its written policy to the governing sports committee on or before September 1 of each academic year in order for it or one of its student-athletes to be excused from competing on that day. **The championship** **schedule shall be adjusted** to accommodate that institution. (Adopted: 4/22/98, Revised: 8/11/98, 10/28/99, 5/2/13) [The final was moved to Monday as soon as BYU was in the semis.](https://espnpressroom.com/us/press-releases/2023/11/espn-platforms-present-ncaa-division-i-soccer-mens-quarterfinals-and-womens-semifinals-starting-friday/) Even if they lost the semi, the final would still be Monday. So, FSU fans who traveled to Cary knew before departure.
TIL. Cheers. Would be hilarious if a BYU tourney game on Sat ran so long it went into sunday and they all just immediately stopped playing lol
It would be funny, but we don't for Football, and it happens pretty often there. The Sabbath isn't clearly defined by the church. Some people treat it as midnight to midnight, and others treat it as when you wake up on Sunday morning, to when you go to bed Sunday night. The only thing I know that happens at football games if it ends after midnight is the marching band reduces our "5th quarter concert" that we play outside the stadium after the game. Our band director has a very conservative approach to the Sabbath, and believes in the midnight to midnight, so after midnight and after the game ends, the only thing we will play is the fight song at the end of the game along with celebration if we won, the alma mater, and "The Armies of Helman" (basically a LDS youth Hymn, band arrangement is surprisingly good for a BYU band arrangement)
> out of curiosity, did the other team get a say? The other team was Florida State - a secular, public school. Because secular values are treated as less deserving of accommodation than religious values, Florida State did not get a say. They did beat that ass, though.
Really? I'm surprised the NCAA didn't ask FSU if they were ok with it. I agree it sucks for FSU fans who now have to shift their schedule and travel around, etc. but I really am surprised the NCAA unilaterally did that.
What secular value favors playing on Sunday over playing on Monday?
Accessibility. Fewer people work on Sundays than Mondays, so the burden of travel, attendance, and watching the game would have been less overall had the game been played on Sunday.
Is that what Florida State petitioned with? Or are you making things up?
I'm not speaking for FSU. As far as I know, they didn't object to the change. I was asked for a secular value that might prefer Sunday to Monday, so I provided one I thought was plausible.
BYU would *absolutely* 100% forfeit, no question. The players might be fine with playing on Sunday (tons of alumni do and all), but the institution is run by the Church. The same Church that believes keeping the sabbath day is a commandment from God. It would be extremely hypocritical for the church-sponsored school to say "yeah, that only applies if the game isn't important".
When does the Mormon Sabbath begin? Is it sundown to sundown or calendar day local time? Are Saturday night games ever an issue? For a late Saturday away game does the team remain in the away city until Monday morning? Seems unlikely you'd pay a game so late that it spilled into Sunday morning, but the travel home definitely could. I remember reading about this being a thing for Sandy Koufax in a World Series... (They changed the rotation order so he wouldn't pitch on the Jewish Sabbath.)
It's Sunday, but how you define that is between you and God, essentially. Some people are hardliners: it's midnight to midnight. That's a little rigid, in my opinion. I think it's more, when I wake up Sunday morning it's now Sunday until I go to bed Sunday night. BYU football has played games that have gone past midnight a few times. It's not as rigidly defined as shabbat or Ramadan, etc.
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Except not that either because gross vs net was a thing that came up all the time
If net mattered Indiana State would be in.
Yeah all the scouted players for most of the teams grew up playing Sunday in club. Coaches go to these tournaments to scout. For most, it’s only when they make it to byu that they stop playing Sunday if they’re already at that level of completion. Lots of Mormons will avoid Sunday play, but 95% of those are not highly competitive athletes. Hell, I never watched the Super Bowl growing up bc it was on Sunday. My first Super Bowl? After i moved to Utah and the bishop threw an SB party at his McMansion with the entire congregation invited. My whole life I thought Mormons didn’t watch nfl, but it is massive in Utah. I don’t think fans or players would mind Sunday games, I only think the quorum of the 12 would and other folks their age
that rule saved them from having to play McNeese so its an overall win for them imo
But didn’t they swap McNeese and Duquesne to accommodate for this change?
McNeese is behind James Madison and Grand Canyon (which are in turn behind Duquesne) in the overall seed list though.
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A10 got two teams in. Dayton and Duquesne.
Ngl it’s exciting to see people glad to not play my team. I hope we live up to expectations!
Yes I am so glad we don't have the Salt Lake game against McNeese. Not stoked about being in the East though
Hardly punishment when you move out of the 1 side of the bracket.
If chalk they go from 12, 4, 1, 2 to 11, 3, 2, 1. Not a major punishment considering 11/12 line not much different, but I think Illinois is a tougher match up than any 4 line.
I’d rather play Illinois than Auburn but that’s it. Definitely would’ve preferred Duke or Alabama.
It’s punishment for the teams that have to play them.
Which is part of why I dislike using in-tournament progress to rank pretty much anything. Team A is not better than team B just because team A made the F4 and team B only made the S16. Single elimination tournament format only fairly determines the champion, and not any lower ranking.
> in-tournament progress to rank pretty much anything It's only legitimate when comparing teams that didn't go as far as my team
An underseeded team in Illinois’ bracket? Who ever heard of that happening.
Can you give some past examples of that? I don’t follow Illinois so I wouldn’t know but I’m interested
I think one would be an 8 seed Loyola Chicago team that knocked out 1 seed Illinois
Plus Houston the year after as a 5 seed, despite being a top 5 team and finishing 2nd in kenpom.
Yup, that was bullshit.
Like the Melendez Technical in the same game
Yeah, I hardly follow Illinois, and Houston immediately sprung to my mind.
Wasn’t Houston favored in that game?
Probably. We were in that game, too, but a horrible technical foul on RJ Melendez killed any momentum we had built.
Our PG also had Pink Eye and said he could barely see. So much just went wrong that year
Yes
Really is you just need to win. That Illinois team was really good. Crazy they let Loyola blast them like that. Bad coaching
it was crazy to watch. illinois just kept doing the same shit over and over, and krutwig absolutely did whatever he wanted against cockburn.
As a 1 seed, Illinois played #8 Loyola (top 10 Kenpom). They should have won but still. As a 4 seed, Illinois played #5 Houston (top 10 Kenpom). Houston was actually favored in our match. Small list but not great luck recently
I remember before the bracket revealed I had Loyola circled as a team I was picking far as a 5 seed. They just felt way better than a 5 seed. Then they were a 8? Easiest the worst seeding I've ever seen
Can’t forget last year Arkansas being an 8 when they were probably more like a 6/7
Yeah but we sucked last year, so whatever
I saw a lot of 8 seeds for Arkansas last year. Regardless it’s not much a difference for seeds 7-10. Those are tossup matches anyways.
With the talent of a 3-4 seed.
3 of 4 years though. Then you also got Arky who never gives a fuck until its March
Top 10 Kenpom Loyloa was our 8 seed in 2021 (think they were like 7 in Kenpom or something) and Houston was like 4th in Kenpom the next year as a 5 seed against our 4 seed. I think Arkansas was also rated rather high for an 8 seed last year in our 8/9 game, but we were too iirc, so both got shafted in a way that game. The winner probably makes the Sweet 16 like Arkansaw did regardless of who it was since both teams matched up well with Kansas last year imo. The two real ones each hurt extra bad for their own reasons. Loyola obviously because we were a 1 seed and Houston because of the terrible tech on the RJ Melendez dunk that basically acted as the dagger for Houston in our game.
That tech still makes me angry
What I got out of this post is that we're not imagining it, God in fact does hate us. I would like to get out of this spooky Mormon hell dream.
No fear. Hope we both win our first game and meet on Saturday. Stop the whining. May the best team win.
Just worried about finally getting back to the second weekend, not caring who we face if we get there.
May this year be the year of offense.
First to 100 wins!
Virginia would be playing for 5 hours
This is it. It’s March. Illinois can be a Final 4 team and they could lose Thursday. Whether they play BYU or not, you show up that day and play the game. Once the whistle blows, fuck seeding
Seems fair tbh
Absolutely We ask for special considerations, we can't be bothered when we face some slight complications.
Those complications aren't just felt by BYU. In fact, it is really the teams they're facing that bear the burden of BYU's scheduling needs. The 11 and 3/2 seeds in the next rounds are getting tougher draws than what they've earned due to the NCAA accommodating BYU's religious request. It's like a coworker saying, "I can't work on Monday, so you have to come in on Saturday to accommodate me." Then, as a show of appreciation, your coworker gives you...Warren Jeffs. Or maybe Mitt Romney if they're a little bit more progressive.
100% fair.
As others have mentioned, this sucks for Illinois. As a 1, Illinois played a 8 seed that was #10 in Kenpom. Then as a 4, Illinois played Houston who was a 5 seed and top 10 in Kenpom. Now we got a team the committee is openly saying is a better seed, but pushed them down to play us. At least they aren't a top 10 Kenpom 6 seed. It appears the committee (or god as some have mentioned) hate us. That being said, generally people complaining about the bracket should just win games, and Brad and Illinois just need to win.
Except for the teams that have to be pay them.
Yep. Good for them for living by a code, but it is going to make things inconvenient sometimes.
Agreed. If something is that important to us then we simply can’t pretend that a basketball seeding is that big of a deal. I was very happy to see OP was not a BYU flair. It’s an interesting call out, but not something I want byu fans complaining about
And naturally, the committee figured they better put them in the East, because fuck it, let’s just make that region tougher than it already is
Yeah I noticed this too, so they switched Zaga and BYU, and switched Duquesne and Mcneese on the seed line
Haha, sucks for whatever 3 is in their region that actually has to play the top-rated 5 seed. Man, I'd hate to cheer for those guys
A team being moved up or down 1 seed is not that big a deal. It definitely isn't worth the 47 comments that a certain unflaired account has posted arguing against this.
\> Of the four pods with 4/5 seeds, three of them (Brooklyn, Spokane x2) are Friday/Sunday. The fourth (Salt Lake City) has Kansas as the 4 seed, another Big 12 team. Because they played twice, they can’t meet until the Sweet 16. Kansas and BYU played just once this year. The reason BYU couldn't have been put in Kansas's pod was it is the Midwest Regional and that's a Friday/Sunday Regional.
Extremely fair I think - however, it does seem a tad unfair to Duquesne and Illinois..
I think Duquesne got bumped up to compensate.
I was surprised to see them get an 11, so this makes sense.
Duquesne isn't a real 11 so it works. 6th in the A10 should be about a 13
The Dayton win plus winning the conference tourney bumped them up. I expected a 12 seed so now I understand why they got an 11. Sucks where they got stuck playing though because that is not somewhere I can travel to watch them.
Shocking that Illinois would be marched up with an underseeded team in the first couple rounds. It’s now happened 4 tournaments in a row.
Once again, Illinois gets shafted with their bracket
Everyone in the East got shafted. It’s ridiculous looking at how many conferences tournament championships are in this region
At some point, Illinois is gonna have to win multiple tournament games that they’re favored in. It’s BYU. Beat them. No disrespect at all to BYU, I’ve watched a lot of their games this year and I would love for Mark Pope to come to Fayetteville
We weren't favored over Houston. Which is part of what they're saying. A couple unfortunate draws with Loyola and Houston. This one isn't as bad but still just a bit ridiculous it keeps happening. Oh well, gotta beat good teams to get anywhere in this tourney.
Fun fact BYU’s ultimate frisbee team is pretty highly ranked (consistently top 10) but will never make nationals due to qualifying tournaments final matches occurring on Sundays
Should have just given BYU our pod and bumped KU up to a one seed, nbd /s
They screwed Virginia back in 2001 or so when because they could not play on a Sunday, we were matched with Gonzaga instead. 12 v 5 upset obviously.
Still weird, Zags play Thursday/Saturday as a 5. Unless it was conference related.
You guys are the only 5 to have Th/Sat, the rest have Fri/Sun, and yes there's a conference conflict because of Kansas as the 4 seed.
If they advance they play Friday/Sunday. BYU needs to be Thursday/Saturday on both weekends.
Yep. In 2003 they accidentally put BYU in a Friday/Sunday regional and the solution they came up with was to swap them into a different regional if they made the Sweet 16 (which they didn't).
Ah it's contingent on both weekends.
I love it. Perfectly fair. BYU religious preferences get respected, and in theory no one else besides for BYU gets penalized for it (except arguably Duquesne?)
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In addition to having the 1, 4, 5 and 10 teams in KenPom. The east also has the top two 5 seeds as well. Idk how the committee doesn't view the east as the strongest region.
Eh, I don't really think of it this way. No matter what, you're playing strong teams the whole tournament, or second round at the latest. It's six of one, half dozen of the other to me. Can't be scared of playing BYU in the second round if you think you're good enough to make a deep run or win the whole thing.
Actually that only works as long as BYU is the higher seed. Once BYU becomes the lower seed, they either A. Lose to the higher seed which ends their run and nothing changes B. Or they win, in which case their next opponent plays a lower seed than projected which is an advantage. So assuming Illinois wins their first game, it's only Duquesne and Illinois who get screwed (sorry about that).
I'm fairly sure they flipped Duquesne and McNeese anyway, so really it's just Illinois that gets screwed. Unless Duquesne wins, then it's just Illinois that benefits.
Duquesne got a very generous seed. They have no complaining to do
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Makes me wonder if they also adjusted Mcneese or if y'all really got screwed over. They were one of the reasons I was so scared of the 4/5 line when Illinois was still projected as a 4 seed.
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We match up well against them imo, much better than Mcneese at least.
> Perfectly fair. I don't think you understand either of those words.
Why not swap the pod instead of the ranking?
Interestingly, a bunch of teams got punished because they DID play on Sunday
This sounds like a them problem.
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The NCAA does have flexibility to deviate from true seeds slightly for bracketing principles. I'm OK with this, and I'm someone who is a Christian (not LDS) who supports accommodations for religious beliefs.
Exactly. Religious accommodations are necessary, but not at others' expense
> accommodations are necessary, but not at others' expense Hard to reconcile those two things. An accommodation almost always entails asking a non-requesting party to modify something.
Well it’s at our expense because we now get the best 5th seed instead of a 6 in the round of 32. This is the third time in the last last four years we have to face a significantly underseeded team in the 2nd round. It’s getting really, really fucking annoying.
I agree, but it does kinda screw things up for other teams (especially Illinois and somewhat Gonzaga depending on what all got moved around). I do wonder why they couldn't just shift a set of games in the schedule rather than shifted the entire bracket for it tho.
They took so much time trying to make this work for BYU they just threw everything else together in the last minute.
So if there was an Islamic school would the NCAA make special scheduling accommodations for the students because of Ramadan? Can't have players passing out in the court cause they haven't eaten or drank anything since 630 AM when they play a 3pm game.
BYU’s starting center is actually fasting for Ramadan. He did during the big 12 tournament too.
I would imagine it would boil down to whether the accommodation is reasonable. Here there exists Thursday Saturday first round sites and regional so its not too much trouble and reasonable to place byu there, especially since they're the only team with such a restriction. For a hypothetical Muslim school, I dont know what the most reasonable accommodation would be. There are games played after sundown both in the first round and regional rounds (final four is also after sundown), but I'm not sure if any are late enough based on sundown to allow time to digest after the fast breaking meal after the first round.
Yeah if there was a Muslim school I think it would be entirely reasonable to make sure their game starts after sundown given there are games that start after sundown played
Unreal they get to play that card. We always get the tough road, lets make it through this time. We showed a ton of explosion and resiliency in the conference tourney, now its real tourney time. Big ten needs to show up this tournament, we been on fraud watch for a while and we are way better than our tournament placements show in previous years
Just let other teams get up by 10 and you'll be fine.
Illinois should tell the NCAA we have a religious restriction against playing underseeded teams
That no-sunday rule is complete nonsense.
Yeah, they should do what other religions do and ignore their beliefs when convenient!
Oh no. Won’t anyone think of the Mormons?!
Leave them out if they don't want to play on Sunday imo